What would you like to see done to improve our class?

[Caa]

<DIV>I've followed the threads on this board for the past couple days and I think it's the general consensus that we need lots of work. I have a couple ideas, not sure if they are workable or not, but I'd like to hear what other Troubadors think can be done to fix our problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Increase the damage done by our Combat Abilities and Damage Songs</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>There is little doubt we are at the bottom of the heap in terms of DPS. In a 60 minute parse yesterday I did about half the DPS of an assassin (who was not using poison). I don't contest that assassin/rangers should be the highest DPS scout class but I'd like to see a modest boost to our DPS. Since a good chunk of our DPS is CA and song based maybe increasing the damage done by them is reasonable way to fix this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Modify the Raxxyl / Niv (stat buff) line</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>My thought here is to take the focus away from the stats (agi, stam and str) and maybe see something added straight to AC / HP / Attack. They do this to some extent but if agility and strength are being modified to be less useful, we become less useful. This could mitigate that somewhat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Have haste lower combat ability timers</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>As far as I understand, haste does not touch CAs at the moment. I'm not sure if this is possible but if haste could be changed to reduce timers on CAs I see this line becoming much more useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Increase the power regeneration of Bria's line</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>I'd actually settle for an increase of in fight power regen and keeping out of combat power regen as is. As is, crafted drink makes this line almost trivial out of combat, and the low regen (even at Adept3 level) in combat makes a negligible difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Modify Bria's Entracing Sonnet (Charm)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Some of the good ideas I've seen here are have the charm take a conc slot (or two) and drain power over time but increase the timer, and/or reduce the reuse timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said, I don't know if these are actually doable, but they are on my wishlist for the class. Any other ideas?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Iliad 32 Troubador / 32 Alchemist</DIV> <DIV>Odys 32 Defiler / 32 Armourer</DIV> <DIV>Tox</DIV><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[Sapp]

<DIV align=left>Give us a disrobe song.  I song that makes members of the opposite gender take off all thier clothes and dance on a pole.</DIV>

[Nevari]

Hah! Seriously answered the suggestions I do like. Make sense to me.

[jawgo]

<DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Well, since ya asked, if I had any say in things I would do the following:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>1)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Fix obviously broken songs. Ex: resist songs not scaling when upgraded.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>2)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Not a Troub specific concern (much like number 1) but I would allow buffs already being maintained to be refreshed without canceling.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>3)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>I would reduce haste and Songster’s Luck line to 1 concentration –OR- drastically increase their effectiveness. I emphasize drastic here. The OP’s suggestion of allowing haste to effect recast times on arts/spells would be acceptable.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>4)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Replace the snare line of spells with anything. Personally, if it costs concentration, do the same for the Hate reducing line as well. Heck, get rid of the health regen song too…</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>5)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Introduce a line of songs that increased Mage and/or Priest performance. Ex: a song that increased DD spells by a %, or increased a heal spell by a %. We currently don’t offer much benefit to healers or mages outside of power regen line, which is woefully inadequate. See item 4.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>6)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>As the OP suggested, if stats are going to be as made as meaningless here as in EQ1, change the Raxxyl’s line to something else. I’d suggest a melee damage modifier line, a song that would add a certain % of additional damage to successful melee attacks. Allow it to continue to stack with Rousing Tune which would remain as is. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>7)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Introduce an Arcane/Elemental resist debuff. AE or single target, don’t matter to me. See item 4.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>For the raiding Troub, I’d add some AE songs. Ex: an AE resist song, or power regen buff. See item 4.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>9)<SPAN>       </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Increase the regen provided by the Bria’s line. Make in in-combat only if need be, but it needs to be much more effective than it is now.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>10)<SPAN>    </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Increase the effectiveness of resist songs. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>11)<SPAN>    </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Increase the effectiveness of <SPAN> </SPAN>power drain songs. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>12)<SPAN>    </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>I’d like to see charm made to be a touch more useful. Many ways to do this…pick one.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Thats what I'd do.<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#000000></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>

[Asheb]

<p>Message Edited by Asheben on <span class=date_text>02-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[Asheb]

<DIV> <DIV>Also, since you asked...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Can't argue with fixing what's broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Agree with improving Charm spell.</DIV> <DIV>I would like the timer removed in favor of a repeating target chance to break the charm. I.e. every 10-15 seconds the target saves vs. mental. Of course being an erudite troubador I'd like that chance to be modified by the bard's intelligence. Possibly when you cast the charm you generate a charm strength modified by the caster's level and intelligence and the target's level and wisdom. Of course this should cost concentration points, probably two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. More power transfer abilities or power mana drain group spells.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not into the mana taps yet, but I still have the largest mana pool in my party and frankly I rarely ever get below 50%. I foresee sitting on big reserves of power and no way to put it to use. I know this horns in on the mage territory, but like the crusaders are a sort of fighter/priest hybrid, I see us as a scout/mage hybrid. I'd like to see direct power transfer 'shout' spells that drains bard power and gives it in a one-time shot to the group or individual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Taunt.</DIV> <DIV>Flame me down for suggesting this, but I'm still accustomed to the aggro management roles of playing a ranger in eq1. I liked the utility of being able to grab aggro off the healer/nuke and transferring control over to the tank. I have a hard time doing that as a scout in this game -- probably because I'm not supposed to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Asheben on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

[bellring]

<DIV>devs go on hoilday</DIV>

[Jeffin]

<DIV>My ideas:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#1.  Considering that the Raxxy'ls/buff line is largely being nerfed, AND considering the fact that most of the short duration buffs and songs are having their times greatly increased, I would do the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>      Change the whole Raxxy'ls/Buff line to a straight out Attack, Def and AC buff, but make it a 2 minute Duration song.  You can easily play with the potency of the song with both its actual effects and the Concentration required.  Call it a "Chant."  This gets more in line with a Bard's Battle-chant sort of thing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another option might be to allow this line to buff ALL stats, including Wis and Int.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2.  COMBINE the Power & Health Regens at higher levels, and/or make them slightly more effective.  The Enchanter has FAR superior Power Regen (as well as pretty much being an Archetype unto themselves...) and the Druids have FAR better Health Regen (As it should be.)    Troubador Regen songs should DEFINATELY stack with these as well as food, but there should be some benefit that is 'special' for the Troubador.  Combining these would be original, and neat, in my opinion...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, even with the nerfs they keep throwing our way, we can still be a very worthwhile class.  It does seem, however, that we need a little Dev-luvin to go with the 'balances' that make others stronger, and make us weaker.  As it is now, it certainly appears as though we are a 'broken' class, and with the lack of aknowledgement or statement by any Devs, it seems as though they are either happy with the Troubador being the 'least' equal, or they simply are not concerned, due to the low numbers of people playing the class....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Milost]

<DIV>The suggestions so far look reaonsably good from my seat.  I'd say to get rid of regen altogther and replace them with buffs that add to the base mechanic values.  Like it was mentioned, a buff that affects AC, max HP and attack... add to that a buff that adds to max power and gives casters a more noticable inherent value from the song.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead of snare, a confusion or stun based line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Charm retuned or scrapped for a moderate crowd control ability, something that would be less effective as enchanters but still useful for situations where multiple group mobs become a problem.  We get mesmerize at 50, why not a smaller taste of that cc aspect earlier on?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A self proc for dps similar to assassin/ranger poison.  Not as effective but something there to help us in the dps department.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instruments with stats instead of bows for our ranged slot.  Not really important.  I just don't like having one other slot to upgrade that I never use.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Milostyl on <span class=date_text>02-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Caa]

<DIV>Actually if we could use the DD poisons I would consider that a sufficient boost in DPS. That is provided that poisons actually do add a ~30% increase.</DIV>

[Jehannum]

<DIV>Here's what I'd like to see:</DIV> <DIV>1. A song costing 4 concentration slots, which increases runspeed by 5% +.5% per bard level. (i.e. 9.5% at level 19, 30% at 50) Should be gained at level 19, and not stack with ANY other runspeed buffs, pathfinding, SOW, horse or sprint.  Dammit I want my Selo's back.  I'd be ecstatic if the extra per-level speed depended on wielding a tier-specific, attuned, player-crafted drum requiring a rare hide harvest.</DIV> <DIV>2. A song which indiscriminately DOTs any non-locked NPC within 20 feet of the bard.  Should be gained at level 5, last for 3 ticks, and deal between 3 and 30 points damage per tick.  Flavour text:  %t winces.  Let's teach a whole new generation of singers to fear the guards :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV>3. EB.  I have a fishbone so it's not an issue for me personally, but it'd be nice to see that particular song come back too, at about level 15-ish.  It'll be lethal until people stop stacking EB on it, but that's part of the fun.</DIV> <DIV>4. Highsun/Twilight.  I never used these in EQ1 for the mez effect, though that was a side benefit.  What I'd use them for is mob positioning.  Tank won't let the other melees get behind the mob?  Fine, we'll just move the mob over a few feet so that we can get behind where it is NOW.  I'd absolutely love to see a spell or two just for pushing mobs around like I used to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know this isn't the same EQ (and even if it were I can't play the pre-Luclin flavour which was so much better anyway) but these are some of the things I've been missing, as suggestions which (as far as I can make out) would be consistent with the observed balance of this new EQ.</DIV>

[Jark]

I'd like to see the buff-stacking go away...right now I'm only lvl 26 but I can stack two buffs that each raise total HP's by about 7.5%...add in the str/agi bonuses from the same buff and its hard to go with anything else

[Eaaq]

<DIV>well... to improve us i would say... MAKE US BETTER TANKS rofl</DIV>

[Swift_M]

Alin's line (detaunt songs):These need to be changed to an upgrade to evade. In any fight, my conc slots are always full. If i end up getting aggro when I really don't want itand I need someway to lose it, I shouldn't have to search my maintained buff window for a song I can stop playing just so I can fire this off. If I need this, odds are I need to lose aggro asap. As an upgrade, it would have a viable use in more fights.Arcane line (resist)As others have stated, they need to actually get better when you upgrade them. This is a fairly large issue with many songs.Sneak (skill or song) and all stealth attacksWith so many stealth attack moves we get (Luck Blade, Clara's Midnight Cadence, etc) we need a way to sneak while in combat. These moves are only usable as an openner (I won't even start with how a normal flank attack move usually does more damage). After we get locked into combat, if we try to sneak with any method the sneak buff will show up in the maintained window yet do nothing, even if we turn off attack.Another issue with these is the cast time on all bard sneaks is 3 seconds. Couple that with 1 second cast time for all the stealth attacks, thats 4 seconds total time for 1 attack if your timing is perfect and no lag. During that time I would have been able to do alot more DPS with other abilities. We need some way to sneak fast.Aria lines (mental dmg proc)With the most recent path, the new description says it is a 5% chance to proc with something like 150 to 200 damage (Aria of Inpiration at Adept 1, lvl 39). This is great by looking at the numbers, however I would love to see this song chanced to a higher chance to proc (10% maybe?) with lower damage to help balance it out. Even cut the damage in half to 75 to 100 or so with 10% chance. Groups would actually notice it more and realize we do bring a lot more to the table than power regen and what not.Quiron's line (hp regen)This line as it stands is very situational (almost never). Taking 2 conc slots is the biggest draw back to this. In the situations where a little HP regen would come in handy, it is hard to free up 2 conc slots so put this up. There are a lot of other more important and helpful songs than this. Needs to be changed to a single conc and would be nice if upgrading this line would give a little more benefit than 1 or 2 hp per level (app1 -> app2, etc).All in all, I LOVE the troubador class. A few miner things here and there that I would love to see chance, a few major ones.

[Caa]

<DIV>Here's a little update post-patch as regards our DPS mid 30s. Thanks to my assassin friend who parsed us over an hour in Runnyeye last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Member and their DPS</DIV> <DIV>- 32 Assassin using poison pretty steady between 65-70 DPS</DIV> <DIV>- 34 Necromancer using caster pet 70-75 DPS (range is partially due to the number of group encounters where her AoE's are more formidable)</DIV> <DIV>- 33 Shadowknight 35-40 DPS (our tank, he mentionned he was most defensive and taunting)</DIV> <DIV>- 35 Troubador (me!) 40-45 DPS</DIV> <DIV>- 33 Inquisitor 15-25 DPS (depending on how much he healed)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like to qualify this saying that I notced that the parsing program failed to pick up on things. How do I know this? Because after every fight the assassin posted the results and in it the highest hit is mentionned. Now in several cases I used Dissenting Cantana (Adept 1) and hit for low 200s but the highest hit registered as something else lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considering that we are essentially a support class, our DPS here is acceptable. That is provided our buffs are modified as per the suggestions above. If, on the other hand, we are supposed to be a DPS class with perks then we need some work in that department. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also note the three level difference between the 'true' DPS class. This is especially important considering we were generally fight mobs that conned yellow to red to him, but ranged from blue to orange to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The buffs I had on the whole night without fail were:</DIV> <DIV>- Vhalen's (Adept 2)</DIV> <DIV>- Raxxyl's (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>- Niv's (Adept 2)</DIV> <DIV>- Songster's Luck (Master 1)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My agililty self buffed reached 244, str 174, and stam 180. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Caali on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 AM</span>

[Peyed]

With regard to the Bria's line, there was a suggestion on the Dirge board that I really liked. To quote CerraWhisperwind: "What I would like to see is instead of our very low mana regen songs we get songs that reduce the mana cost of spells and arts. Say 15% less cost while the song is playing for the group. Inspiring songs...." (http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=1379&view=by_date_ascending&page=2)This idea fits in well with the group-support concept of a troubadour. Perhaps 15% is an excessive amount to reduce group power costs, but the idea is sound. By reducing power pool costs across the board, we'd be very popular with any group, especially in those long, drawn-out fights. And it would be a lot more valuable than the Bria's as it stands now.It might even be appropriate to split the Bria's line into separate Troub and Dirge lines; Troubs would get the power cost reduction, and Dirges get something debuff-ish or more offensively-minded that is similarly useful.

[Arcturo]

<DIV>I would go with a couple other things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Leave the total health regen on our health regen song the same but make it do it over a minute or two with a ten minute recast timer. This would give either 350 per tick  or 175 per tick, this would make this situational and effective worth the concentration in an emergency.</LI> <LI>I would do the almost exact same thing with our DOT. The resulting damage per tick would be about the same as the heal  modified by resists on targets.</LI></UL> <P>I think that the increased hatred caused by either of these would make them balanced along with a long recast timer should keep us from stepping on any toes. I think these as well as some of the other ideas in this thread would help.</P> <P> </P> <P>Darkmane 46th Troubador of Permafrost</P>

[KineticMu]

<DIV>I agree with a lot of the things posted here. I also want run speed as a BARD ability not aDirge only ability. I'm tired of nerf nerf nerf w/ agility, and strength. I've since retired my Troubador as only a crafting player until things are resolved... I already have another lvl 9 scout that I was going to make a rogue (for fun I like to try everything) she's on another server so maybe I'll make a Dirge or something if I feel like playing bard again in the VERY distant future but... the Troub is going on the shelf for a very very very long time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only decent character I have left is my cleric....... but man healing is booorrring <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Jark]

I would like to see some more concentration skills that were as effective as the stat buffs, right now stat-buffing is incredibly compelling because nothing has as much effect per concentration slot. If (and only if) they did this I would even be willing to lose buff-stacking....of course if they did this we wouldn't choose to stack buffs, a bit ironic

[Koman]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make all songs use 1 concentration slot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us off-hand instruments to use instead of 2nd weapon or shield that doubles (yes, doubles - it's needed) all song effects.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Selo's.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caa]

<DIV>I'm going to consolidate this thread with the Feedback on Troubador ones and repost it.</DIV>