self-fullfilling prophesy?

[Jark]

All the whining on these boards is starting to get me down on the troub-class. As a troub this worries me because it will deter people from becomming troubs, and make them leary about grouping with us. Yes they changed some of our buffs....they were broken! You have to have faith that they'll figure it out and fix it. Although I have to admit as a level 24 troub I feel like I am able to attack mobs they way con's were intended (blue/green easy, white a challenge...yellow/orange risky) But then again I'm only 24, I can only hope it continues to work that way at higher levels.

[aeio]

What concerns me more is people not knowing the value and power of some of our buffs like the songster's luck line.I can't even count the number of times I have seen people here claim it is worthless, and that line is probably the best group buff we have and has been forever. There will come a day that troubadors will get kicked out of group for not using it.... it will just take time.I am not concerned with the overall health, as troubadors have so much to offer both grouping and soloing... It is simply not a straight forward as other classes.Right now, though, we are definately our own worst enemy.

[Sludge]

<DIV>Troubadors offer nothing to groups anymore. No point in inviting them.</DIV> <DIV>Plan on having fun 'soloing' from now on. Proably the most useless class there is.. Recommend you reroll to one of the 2 classes still playable (guardian or templar).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nevari]

<blockquote><hr>Sludgeme wrote:<DIV>Troubadors offer nothing to groups anymore. No point in inviting them.</DIV><DIV>Plan on having fun 'soloing' from now on. Proably the most useless class there is.. Recommend you reroll to one of the 2 classes still playable (guardian or templar).</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Sorry but that's just plain wrong mate.Troubador offers A LOT to each group and if the player knows how to play depending on the situation we still a very very good addition to each group.Not going down into detail here again as in other threads the skills and usefullness of a troubador was pointed out allready.

[AzureDa]

<DIV>Hmmm....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so what you are saying is that half the board is complaining in the hope of increasing the power of their classes relative to other classes ... and the other half is trying to brag about how awesome they are so they can get groups more easily?  and then you have people that just come to argue... taking any contrary position just cause they like to debate?  throw in a couple trolls from a different class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>nah.  you couldn't possibly think that.  must have misread ya.  that couldn't -<EM>possibly</EM>- describe any MMORPG board for any game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by AzureDawn on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 AM</span>

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

<DIV><FONT size=2>The whining is definitely going way over the top, and the strange thing is that we are indeed our own worst enemies. I've grouped with two tanks who have commented on troubador being nerfed, but they still invited me to group and were still fully aware of the advantages of bard buffs. It seems the people who are complaining the most about the post-patch troubador are the troubadors themselves. We aren't designed to solo (although people who are being beaten by green and blue solos are doing something far wrong, I've yet to lose a battle with a green group/^^ up to yellow solo) and what we still have can benefit any group. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I think I'll be ignoring this forum for a little while until it calms down, I can't wait for this to blow over so we can just get on with it. The way it was before was lazy; troubs hardly had to think at all, except to remember to put up the stat buffs every 10 minutes. And the songsters luck line is extremely useful. Even at apprentice 1 Minstrels Fortune does me more good than adept 1 haste when soloing. :smileywink:</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by WorldsAway_Nybor on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 AM</span>

[NoSympathy_FU]

<blockquote><hr>Sludgeme wrote:<DIV>Troubadors offer nothing to groups anymore. No point in inviting them.</div><DIV>Plan on having fun 'soloing' from now on. Proably the most useless class there is.. Recommend you reroll to one of the 2 classes still playable (guardian or templar).</div><DIV> </div><hr></blockquote>Ok, not my forums but in the light of things I think you guys may want to hear this from a Berserker point of view. Id take a Troubador with me anytime all the time if I could. I just wish they'd made pocket versions of them. The fact is that indeed all groups can survive without a Troubador but a good one can bring so much to a party that it would be crazy to pass the occasion to have one taging along. If when I go adventuring the Templar is my Life Insurance, then the Troubador is the <a href="http://www.protectiondepot.com/images/uc212.jpg" target=_blank>Rambo Knife</a> I wish I always have on me.For me, you are still a very wanted class for any group. Stand strong guys and keep playing those Battlesongs!<p>Message Edited by NoSympathy_FUTA on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[Nevari]

Thank you Odenn :smileyhappy:Always the best fun grouping with you :smileyhappy:As he said it is more about how you play your class instead of having the easy time with just being UBER.We have a set of less usefull or broken songs but at the very same time we able to cope with it due to our huge variety in skills which allow us to adopt to different situations.Did the AGI nerf hurt us (sorry for mentioning that dead horse)? Yes it did for sure but it did hurt classes across the board.As this ability of the troubador to adopt and having many skills, is what is fun and sense giving to me and for my choosen path. I love it. I will love it in the future aswell. I'm sure of it.

[Tharn]

<DIV>I think what people are upset with is the lack of logic...  If troubadours were so overpowering, why were we one of the least numerous (if not the least numerous) prior to the recent nerfs?  Answer that question for me please...  I've also got a serious problem with the lack of information here.  I want some formula information (some numbers). </DIV>

[Tharn]

<DIV>I think what people are upset with is the lack of logic...  If troubadours were so overpowering, why were we one of the least numerous (if not the least numerous) prior to the recent nerfs?  Answer that question for me please...  I've also got a serious problem with the lack of information here.  I want some formula information (some numbers).  Because if with my songs I'm already generating enough agility or any other stat that further additions are negligible, then I'd like to shift my item stat bonuses to something more useful...  Also, has anyone questioned this?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tharnax on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 PM</span>

[AzureDa]

<DIV><EM>I think what people are upset with is the lack of logic...  If troubadours were so overpowering, why were we one of the least numerous (if not the least numerous) prior to the recent nerfs?</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>ok... just think about it a bit.  The problem is fundamentally a high level one caused by players who are able to raise stats well above 300.  We are talking level 40+.  Most of the player base is not even 40+... let alone have time to devote to getting a SECOND character to 40+.  (Even with that, a lot of troubadors -were- created exactly to take advantage of the massive impact of agility.  Understandibly, they are upset at no longer being uber as they hoped to be.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now most of the class balance is people who chose classes based on general preferences, or an expectation of what makes a good class from EQ1 or other games.... not on number crunching.  This may be the case later on.... but it is definately in EQ2's interest to limit the 'fair-weather' players who jump to the 'power' class, only to have it nerfed... this sets up a boom/bust cycle that is very demoralizing to them, and not good for the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and I'd go further to point out... its only because of a clearly bugged ability to stack 2 lines of spells with each other... getting 6-8 agility buffs up where other classes can only get 2 buffs, that these numbers were achieved in the first place.  Again, this ability becomes more and more apparent in the higher levels when you have all these songs to combine.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG> I want some formula information (some numbers).  </STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This kind of information is -never- released.  Do what everyone else does that cares... do the parses... post the results up on the web.</DIV>

[Despak]

<DIV>I think one of the reasons why everyone is not a Troub, is purely the typical MMo number cruncher.  How many threads do you see that have "Who is the best DPS scout?".  Which is not a Bard class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The group I spend time with love having a Troubadour.  Mana regen, Health, Haste, HO's, scouting, tracking; the list goes on.  Our normal setup is Templer, Paladin, Dirge, Troub, Zerker, Wizard.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The over reactions and knee jerks that happen here are so heavily misinformed coupled with guillable readers is what causes the biggest problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I read the forums, but always leave the final verdict on any patch to my own experiences, just wish others did too.</DIV>

[Taik]

<DIV>Sludgeme = troll.  Dont feed him.</DIV>

[Tharn]

<DIV> <DIV>-------------</DIV> <DIV>ok... just think about it a bit.  The problem is fundamentally a high level one caused by players who are able to raise stats well above 300.  We are talking level 40+.  Most of the player base is not even 40+... let alone have time to devote to getting a SECOND character to 40+.  (Even with that, a lot of troubadors -were- created exactly to take advantage of the massive impact of agility.  Understandibly, they are upset at no longer being uber as they hoped to be.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now most of the class balance is people who chose classes based on general preferences, or an expectation of what makes a good class from EQ1 or other games.... not on number crunching.  This may be the case later on.... but it is definately in EQ2's interest to limit the 'fair-weather' players who jump to the 'power' class, only to have it nerfed... this sets up a boom/bust cycle that is very demoralizing to them, and not good for the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and I'd go further to point out... its only because of a clearly bugged ability to stack 2 lines of spells with each other... getting 6-8 agility buffs up where other classes can only get 2 buffs, that these numbers were achieved in the first place.  Again, this ability becomes more and more apparent in the higher levels when you have all these songs to combine.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG> I want some formula information (some numbers)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This kind of information is -never- released.  Do what everyone else does that cares... do the parses... post the results up on the web.</DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, I'm 25--not 40+, but this character is my main--so I really don't care what they are trying to do with fair-weather players who are class jumping (point is that class jumping or not--we are still one of the smallest classes out there).  I have a 5th or 6th level warrior sitting on the island that I played for one evening.  I'm not even 30, and I HAVE noticed a significant difference with the patches.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I did choose this class based on expectations.  Both the pre-order site and the bard guides state decent solo ability--not one of the worst solo abilities...  I LIKE to solo.  I avoid grouping unless I have to or I am completely bored--if I'm going to be a weak solo class, please tell me up front so that I'll choose something more appropriate.  As for your reference to a boom/bust cycle--I must be completely missing your point as it seems to be in complete opposition to the rest of your argument...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the two troub buff lines were not meant to stack, then why has it not been changed?  I'm tired of hearing this obviously bugged comment.  Making them non-stackable is probably a 5 min. code fix, so it would really seem to me that it was intended and continues to be intended.  We know that dirge stat buffs do not stack...  Again, I ask do troub debuffs stack?  Do dirge debuffs stack?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just about any class skill out there sees an effect from their combat arts/spells.  I see warrior CA's doing considerably more damage than mine.  I see priest spells healing.  I see mage spells doing damage.  I'm really not seeing that much out of my spells that use concentration.  I should not be getting hit as much as a warrior of same level and it appears to me I am--that is why I take more damage.  As for the str/sta effects to the buffs... why not be a dirge and have str buffs and run speed?  Not that I'm noticing much difference from either stat buffs or debuffs or both...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, why should I have to parse...?  If you are going to start reducing the effect of agility at a certain level or any stat then just say at what level it becomes reduced.  They make it very plain at what point I no longer get experience for a kill or loot becomes trivial or how big a group to get to kill a mob...  I mean if we are gonna go with that logic...  Lets just not show stats on equipment and we can parse to see what we feel is most effective.</DIV> <P></P></DIV>

[AzureDa]

<DIV><EM>I HAVE noticed a significant difference with the patches.  </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>-All- classes have noticed significant changes... this is not a troubador specific issue though.  The agility nerf hurt everyone's ability to avoid damage; it hurt troubadors somewhat disproportionately because of our high number agility buffs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Again, I ask do troub debuffs stack?  Do dirge debuffs stack?</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>To my knowledge, no other class has spell lines where (the spells of that line) stack with (the other spells <U>of that same line</U>); That's something unique to troubadors.  </DIV>

[ShiroiOokami]

Just want to throw my 2 cents in - As far as it goes, I've yet to see any dev post or any indication that these stat buff spells are NOT intended to stack. Buffing is the definition of being a bard - we get more, and more variety than any other class type. If they changed them not to stack then many other classes would end up being just as good buffers as we are (and that WOULD be the end of the Troubador class).Given that the other buff spells correctly do NOT stack (gerard's and merciless, minstrel's and songster's), I'm going to have the say the stat buffs are inteded to work this way. Now if the training version is still stacking with the one it replaces, that's a problem.As far as the agi nerf goes, while the situation isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, they've definitely changed it to the worse. Whereas before I could usually solo Orange solo mobs fairly easily, now I'm having troubles with many whites/yellows. So far the agi nerf seems to have affected my ability to solo more than anything else (I can still easily take on Green ^^'s). Groups, the stat buffs do help - even if its mainly for strength now.

[Alis]

<DIV>I actually think the troub line is meant to stack. They have with the agi changes had the opportunity to make this change if that was the problem. It clearly exaggerated it at high lvls but they decided to change agi for everyone rather than change the stacking. I am a poor Dirge (which is a lot of fun) and the best buff we both get caster or melee group is the songsters lucky line, the difference not using it and using it are really noticeable just try it soloing! </DIV>

[Jordinn]

<DIV>I'm a 38th (2% from 39th) troubador.  I solo yellows and whites for experience when waiting for groups.  Yes things changed, but honestly I haven't felt the "giant nerf of doom" that seems to be the opinion of many.  I get regular feedback from players on Permafrost tnat having a troubador is a huge benefit (Dirges get mentioned too in this, you're not left out).  I get asked frequently to come to support raids from random people I've never even met before etc.  I also hear things change fairly dramatically at 40th, so my opinion may change in a few levels... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what's my point?  I think we are giving ourselves bad press, to some degree.  Worse, we're buying into that bad press ourselves also.  If I may suggest that we concentrate on getting our skills fixed to be working as intended (there are plenty of things not quite working) then we can concentrate on balance issues etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My requests for the bard community in general:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please back up all posts with log data.  The only way to get a dev or CSR to listen and help is to show them the issue in a way they can reproduce it or at least study it.  Include data on grouped classes, buffs running, mobs being fought etc.  There are things we can see, and some we can't.  But we should be clear in our data so the devs have a good chance to fix things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please do not buy the story that we're USELESS or DYING.  Every chance you get you should show the groups you are in how valuable we are.  Save the group by charming a mob.  Play regen song at the right time to save a party member who is DoTed.  Play power regen on epic fights and show that 8 per tick over a 20 minute fight actually adds up and matters.  Our actions will talk louder than our posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please don't listen to others who say bards are "cheating" or "exploiting" when using their abilities (yes even if they stack) unless the devs confirm that the abilities aren't supposed to operate that way.  Maybe they are in fact working as intended, maybe they are bugged, maybe they are just out of balance.  Only the SOE Team knows for sure.  The rest of us are just guessing.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Jordinn]

<DIV>Gah Double post, sorry</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jordinn on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[giving]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jordinn wrote:<BR> <DIV>So what's my point?  I think we are giving ourselves bad press, to some degree.  Worse, we're buying into that bad press ourselves also.  If I may suggest that we concentrate on getting our skills fixed to be working as intended (there are plenty of things not quite working) then we can concentrate on balance issues etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well put.  After the patch I read the board and all the bad press, got depressed and didn't play all week.  Came in on the weekend, started playing, still enjoyed it, still loved being a troub, still got invited into groups.  Most of our influence is invisible, and subtle, but a troub can definitaly swing a tight battle or make battles easier.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have rarely had an issue soloing, though I do not think that troubs shine as soloers.  The class description is that we buff a group with songs of war that inspire courage (or something to that effect).  I believe our greatest contribution is in a group.  </DIV>

[britn]

For those optimists out there, just wait until you are 40+. That's when the big nerf stick hits you pretty good.

[Eaaq]

<DIV>my feeling was once i hit level 20 "whats the point?" well... i guess i want to get him up higher buut.... are there any better spells along the way or should i just try getting my warrior (currently level 11) up?</DIV>

[Jordinn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> britney wrote:<BR>For those optimists out there, just wait until you are 40+. That's when the big nerf stick hits you pretty good.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Yeah I've heard post 40 is roughest.  I can't really say much except that I'll know more by this weekend when I hit 40th.  I'm in the process of replacing my blue equipment and finding Adept1s for my songs that I've been getting in the last few levels as well, so I'm sure to be broke when it happens.  I'll come back here after I hit 40 to report on the differences I find in difficulty etc.  </P> <P>For the record at current time I've been soloing Young Blightrats and Rabid Hounds/Pups in Rivervale, Fog Grimmin Whelps and Watchers in Enchanted Lands, Spearfish etc (most are blue).  I also did lumberjacks in Zek, and I'm heading out to Ferrott to find some stuff out that way too.  I'll let you know how it goes at some point later <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Jordinn on <span class=date_text>02-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

[britn]

Maybe I should clarify a little bit. From what I've noticed, generally speaking our attacks don't get much more powerful as you move through your 40's. Expect alot of your skills to hit around 200-400, while you see other damage classes skyrocket in damage output.The best thing we had going for us, was of course the stat buffs. Last night I recorded about a ~40% damage reduction on average over the course of a night fighting high blues. Sounds good on paper, but it's a DRASTIC reduction compared to before, where low blues rarely hit except for special attacks. Also, remember that SOE increased the hit rate for mobs 40+ on top of that. Overall, I think the net effect was to boost 40+ mobs ~2 cons higher as compared to the old system.What I'd really like to see done for bards:1. Reduce conc. cost for alot of our spell lines to 1 slot and/or increase their effectiveness. (Manasong, Healsong, Haste, Songster's luck... barely useful even at 1 conc. slot)2. Mana drain ... increase effectivenes... mobs already dead before you can suck them dry, and costs you way more power than it's worth considering they can still launch barrages etc. without power.3. Arcane/Elemental resist buff could use a little boost in effectiveness, at least at adept I power. Currently noticing ~10-15% dmg reduction on spells. 4. debuffs and dots are just utterly useless... no noticeable effect and not worth the conc. slot. I could care less for this one if they fixed #1.5. Our interrupt/stifle songs just flat out don't work? Lore's lurching limmerick and bellow? Have yet to see it "stifle" any mob, and the bellow gives me 100% resist rate and cast time is WAY too long. 4. How about some better fluff spells? Scouts in general just got seriously screwed here.

[Jordinn]

<DIV>There also seems to be some bug in the Aria of XXX line.  I don't get messages that it is proccing on Aria of Inspiration, however I do for Aria of Excitement.  A group member has reported seeing the "your troubador weapon hits for XXX" message recently, so maybe Inspiration only works on groupmates, maybe it's just a display bug, or honestly maybe I have my chat filters screwed up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way I'd love to see this covered too, since this is a boost in all group melee damage output, and a great way for a Troub to help groups out.</DIV>

[Swift_M]

I just recently hit lvl 42, so I haven't experienced all that much of the post 40 yet. However from what I have seen, so many people make it sound a lot worse than it is. When I'm in the group and my songs are up (line up always changes depending on the situation, group make up, what we are fight, etc) the group barely notices us or what we can do. However, when those songs drop or constant pulling and have to rebuff mid battle, they notice. Our songs help out so much it's scary. My normal group of friends I group with cannot beleive how much the troub buffs add to the group. Most people take us for granted until we are gone.Troubadors are an amazing class, low level or high level. We have something of everything for any situation and can bring something to the group all the time. The greated compliment you can possibly get is someone telling you how much they miss you being in the group AFTER the group breaks up, once they realize what we can do. Once they see that, they'll hunt you down all the time.Ridian McNight42 TroubadorNajena

[Jordinn]

<DIV>I said I'd come back and report on my "post-40" experince, so here I am (ok, I'm actually at 40.66, so not really post 40 yet <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  Also note, I'm not trying to characterize myself as having "seen the upper end content", since I'm still working on EF and LS access, and have only spent a little time on CT and Feerrot.  I'm simply trying to show that it isn't all gloom and doom, at least up to 40, and I can't talk about more (yet).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>General feel, yep, things got a bit harder.  But not too much harder.  I started out slowly, soloing against green Huuptics in Feerrot then blue ones, then blue Damselflys (I think that's their name).  I was able to solo effectively all of these creatures with no real degradation of effectiveness.  I did take a couple of hits, but nothing Quiron's can't keep up with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have also soloed Tallon Lumberjacks in Zek (L38 even con, solo mobs). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll be out this weekend finding More to solo that is White and Yellow to me at 40, and I'll report back as I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My setup is all white or above armor, mostly blue jewelry (replacing it slowly now).  I run Quiron's, Bria's, and Minstrel's as well as Elises and Pathfinding constantly.  I put up Dealor's right before the pull, possibly refreshing it if I have bad luck landing HOs or getting resists on shouts.  I dual wield, but I have a shield and 1 hander for added defense on the hard hitters.  I carry power regen and health regen potions from our guild alchemist to use in emergency cases too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once I get deeper into Feerrot and have some white and yellow mobs to report on I'll come back to let you know how that goes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Spelling</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jordinn on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:08 AM</span>

[Claritin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jordinn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I run Quiron's, Bria's, and Minstrel's as well as Elises and Pathfinding constantly.  I put up Dealor's right before the pull, possibly refreshing it if I have bad luck landing HOs or getting resists on shouts.  I dual wield, but I have a shield and 1 hander for added defense on the hard hitters.  I carry power regen and health regen potions from our guild alchemist to use in emergency cases too. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If those are the songs you typically use... you might not see any problem.. the problem is with how bad the stat buffs were nerfed... to be honest I have no idea why you bother singing Quiron's... that song is useless and takes up 2 slots.</P> <P>At lvl 42 you will see you DPS pick up a little due to Daeli's Dance of blades... however the upgrades to this (Adept 3) SUCK.. plus it is bugged and drains mana when you proc the interrupt.... still worth keeping up... not worth upgrading though.</P> <P>From 42-45 you will probaby be reasonally happy because of the boost from Daeli's but eventaully Daeli's just won't cut it anymore... your DPS will be outshone by people's PETS... even the fighter pets... and even cast by mages 3 lvls lower than you.</P> <P>At lvl 49 you will get a new sneak attack... this will give you a 22% DPS boost for 20 seconds... however sneak attack doesn't work so well right now because sneak gets broken by other memebrs in the group or by buffs you had already sung... plus the cast time on sneak + cast time on the actual sneak attack is huge... and sometimes if you are fighting weak stuff it might be DEAD before you get off that attack.</P> <P>As a result of the Stat nerf... the power drain bug on Daeli's and the fact the upgrades are useless on that song... plus the sneak bug and sneak casting time impacting the lvl 49 sneak attack... well it adds up to a big cluster F of DPS loss.</P> <P>You all said you wanted raw data... well that's it right there... the spell scaling of our songs is TERRIBLE as well (part of my Daeli's complaint already)   You should really look at the spell scaling project I have started.... the upgrades are astoundingly lame.... like you pay 2 plat to get the song made... then find out it wasn't worth 2 gold.... <A href="http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/" target=_blank>http://www.thedauntless.org/Troubadour/Spell%20Screenshots/</A></P> <P>Pay attention to Daeli's and the Raxxyl lines for instance... who in thier right mind would upgrade that using the data I have there... and that is hard concrete data.  Bria's is terrible also but I lack screenshots of the improvement.</P> <P>We are a broken class... we are not useless... but we are not balanced... people still want a troub.. but alot of them it's out of hait from our "glory days"  We are needed for raids... and we are as valuable to a group as a random 2nd fighter... however any other scout is usually prefererred and after the mage patch... why the hell would you want a scout anyway the mages do WAY more DPS...<BR></P>

[Jordinn]

<DIV>I guess I should clarify I use those songs when soloing, and I vary the stat buffs and others like Kian's or Reproaching Discante depending on the situation and once I figure out the damage output of the mob vs me and my equipment.  But that line up is the one I use to start off and when I'm learning new areas and mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as scaling, I've seen your page and agree that there are issues, and if any screenshots from a L40 Troubador on various skills would help let me know and I'll get those taken and sent off to you for posting.  I currently have various skills from App1 through Adept1, no Adept3 or Master Level ones except the training and Master Strike series.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why Quiron's?  Well Healing is nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I use this song often, and mostly in situations when a healer isn't present (solo small group).  The key to using Quiron's (in my opinion) is to decide whether you want 2 conc slots for other things (would debuffing the mob and adding Kian's make more difference than 20-30hp per tick healing?).  I prefer having that healing up and running to having a potential at slightly more DPS or avoidance from stats buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't run any logging sessions and done analysis to determine net effect of various songs or healing or debuffs running but one day I'll do it out of curiosity <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  My feeling is that it depends on a variety of factors like mob type, damage output, equipment state, stat effect, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way, I hope that you're not seeing this as a "testament to why Troubadors aren't broken" because it isn't intended as such.  It is meant to provide some positive light on the topic though and let folks who otherwise might not know that there is some stuff that works ok <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[britn]

Assuming you get 22 tick every six seconds, that's only 220hp a minute. Pretty crappy for 2 conc. slots if you ask me...

[Jordinn]

<DIV>2 conc slots is a bit high yes, but 220hp/ minutes healing is better than 0, and to get a comparable benefit from stat buffs etc I'd need to get 220/minute damage output increase or a 220hp/minute damage reduction from the mob from the replacements used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As stated I haven't done log analysis yet to show that is or isn't happening so I've kept using Quiron's.  I could easily be wrong, but so far anecdotally it seems there is at least parity, rather than a clear answer to this (post stat changes).</DIV>