Big troubador nerf coming on test.

[Haazhel Tho]

This is in the new patch on the test server*** Mechanics *** - Huge differences (including buffs and debuffs) in stats such as Agility will no longer have as pronounced an effect in battle.- The stat attributes of level 30 and higher NPCs have been increased.What will be the main purpose of troubador if our buff becomes useless?

[Loki_d20]

One buff change makes us useless?

[Haazhel Tho]

Pretty much yes.Our dps is low.Our haste is almost useless since most of the damge comes from combat arts and not from the speed of melee.Our mana song is weak and not stackable.Only thing we have left is our power drain wich is usefull only on big monsters.

[Jark]

I dunno...that thread about "soloing deep reds" has had me wondering if our buffs are to good...my only regret is that I haven't leveled high enough to verify it and looks like dynamics will change before I can

[ghera]

There are tons of other benefits to having high main stats besides just the one they are changing.

[Haazhel Tho]

That boost in agi to 40 + monsters already stopped that.The problem is that now a huge boost in stats is needed to make a small difference in fight wich will make lower level bards much less effective since their stats buff arent that good before 38.

[Haazhel Tho]

The patch note says "stats" not just agility.

[Loki_d20]

Look at it how you will, I doubt anyone can change your perception on how things change for you. Personally, our buffs are good, I doubt we're intended to have better attribute buffs than priests. But, I'd rather have a good amount of additional attribute buffs than none.And, as far as changes, this won't be the first. If they find us too weak in something, they'll boost us. It's just that oftentimes decrease in things considered overpowered come first while the upping others come later. It's a development design where the preventive measure for making an adjustment upward is looked into more carefully so that they won't need to remove it at a later time versus downgrading something you already found to be out of line with what you have designed.

[Xran]

Though the sad thing is that Bards do not have enough voice for devs to listen.In the combat thread, all Fighters said "This is crazy! NERF!!!" about the stat buff, esp AGI > STR.There are a couple of Bard posts that are good in between- they are ignored.Our stat buffs are one of the strongest attraction for bards in group. I hope the nerf is too bad thatnow stat buffs aren't even noticeable.

[Monomo]

<DIV>I dont think I understand this:</DIV> <DIV>"<U> Huge differences (including buffs and debuffs) in stats such as Agility will no longer have as pronounced an effect in battle. - The stat attributes of level 30 and higher NPCs have been increased</U>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesnt refer only to BUFFS or DEBUFFS ITS about HUGE Differences in stats...so if stats do not affect ...battle...what's the point about having items with stats????...Not sure what this is all about...I think I don't like i but just a hinch.<BR></DIV>

[Shalwin]

<DIV>I hope it doesn't affect our ability to find groups.  Of course it will keep troubadors as rare as they are now...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Loki_d20]

This affects everyone, he was merely using Agility as probably the biggest factor at the moment. Seems like they feel that attribute purposes against even-con creatures as they are right now, overall, are too high and think that balancing them out is in order.Does this mean that Agility buffs or bonuses are not wanted? Of course not, the added effect will still be beneficial, it just won't, overall, be as beneficial as before. This is for all combat buffs I assume.Perhaps they are doing this to influence and improve the importance of Wisdom (spell defense) and Intelligence (spell/ability offense) in combat, I'm not sure.

[Monomo]

<DIV>Well...something is wrong with the devs formulas...fighters are consistently dishing more dps than the scouts and now thanks to our buffs to Agi...scouts can outtank fighters...read this and you'll undestand it:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=203&message.id=4085" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=203&message.id=4085</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now ...Im sure this is going to be a nerf...and Im fearing a bad one...</DIV>

[Jethro]

<DIV>I don't like it, this means troubadors will no longer even have a prayer soloing green con group mobs.  It was very iffy as it was with green++ group mobs four levels lower than me and I would always just wind up meleeing the things to death since I would run out of power way to fast.   </DIV>

[Nevari]

<blockquote><hr>Haazhel Thorn wrote:This is in the new patch on the test server*** Mechanics *** - Huge differences (including buffs and debuffs) in stats such as Agility will no longer have as pronounced an effect in battle.- The stat attributes of level 30 and higher NPCs have been increased.What will be the main purpose of troubador if our buff becomes useless?<hr></blockquote>Ok so I got a buff which increases attributes or for that sake presume we only speaking about agility.Now... this honestly means I buff a attribute and the buff has NO impact in a encounter? Kidding me? Oh ok... I forgot the AGI buff makes you run more pretty outside a fight :smileytongue:As said here...<blockquote><hr>Haazhel Thorn wrote:Pretty much yes.Our dps is low.Our haste is almost useless since most of the damge comes from combat arts and not from the speed of melee.Our mana song is weak and not stackable.Only thing we have left is our power drain wich is usefull only on big monsters.<hr></blockquote>...we are pretty much screwed. I still hope it's just a bad wording and we take it the wrong meaning.Anyone can clear out please?

[Surferflam]

Why are half of the people here interpreting "not have as pronounced an affect" as "having no affect."

[Monomo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Surferflames wrote:<BR>Why are half of the people here interpreting "not have as pronounced an affect" as "having no affect."<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Because SOE has a reputation for not finding the thin line of balancing....

[Nevari]

<blockquote><hr>Monomofo wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Surferflames wrote:<BR>Why are half of the people here interpreting "not have as pronounced an affect" as "having no affect."<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because SOE has a reputation for not finding the thin line of balancing....<hr></blockquote>Aswell of not being a native speaker but trying to improve. Thus asking that a native speaker please point me out the tiny bit I didn't get correctly if.So far the effect is not negated but lowered I gather out of the answers. Thanks for info! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Lessens the fear I had and still have a bit. Phew!

[Swift_M]

<DIV>I was fully expecting something like this, I mean it was rather insane what we were able to do with certain song line-ups.  I'm going to wait and see exactly what will come of this.  Even if this makess our stat buffs less effective, all that this will mean is we'll have to come up with new sets of songs and new strategies.  Sure it may change the way we deal with vertain things but in the end it will be better for the game and for balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><crosses his fingers></DIV>

[britn]

Since they increased the hit % for mobs lvl 40 and up, I felt that the stat buffs were rather balanced. Soloing "deep reds" was no longer possible, and oranges were somewhat tough.And what's really insane is how they increased the hit% of groupx2 mobs. As it stands a level 30 grey groupx2 ^^^ can almost wipe a full group of 45+ players... where before they were pretty much soloable.I don't understand why fighters would push for a nerf... that's like crying for cleric heals to be nerfed. Seeing as they're the ones doing most of the tanking, nerfing our stat buff effectiveness is only going to hurt them more than us.... since I'm sure most of us rarely if ever solo anyways.

[Kraks_Aforty]

<DIV>First, I agree that the changes to mobs hit % helped a lot already and that this may very well take things a step too far now.  I think the hit % thing was great for the game.  Quite honestly, a 50th guardian was nearly indestructable with 2 healers before they changed this, even against level 55 ^^^ mobs.  Was a very good change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, do I think they will take things a step too far?  Absolutely.  I'm scared we're going back to the EQ1 days when debuffs (other than resists and slows) were hardly noticeable and quite frankly a waste of time.  Anyone ever try to Str/Agi debuff Avatar of War?  It was fruitless.  I'm hoping they keep it to a minor decrease.  Just enough to be noticed, but not so much that the abilities are now worthless.</DIV>

[SingleTra]

<DIV>I am one who is going to agree that this is a needed implimentation.  I shall give a few examples why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Incident one:  Last night, Solusek's Eye.  46 Guardian, 46 Fury, 43 Templar, 43 Dirge, 46 Troub, me being the Troub.</DIV> <DIV>We had finally gotten to the point that we were able to zone into the instanced zone with the forge in it.  This are spawns yellow^^ 47 and 48 lvl mobs repeatedly for about 15 to 20 minutes.  We were able to stand there, take on four and five different encounters of these mobs, at the same time,  without even breaking a sweat.  I thought that a single group ^^ mob was supposed to be matched for a single group of 3 or more people......not four and five of them for one group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Incident two:  Same group and zone as stated prior.  Thyr Guardian - level 50 ^^ encounter.  For grits and shins, I purposely pulled aggro by spamming my buffs.  I tanked just about as well as the guardian had been.  I found that I was hit 1 out of every 10 swings.  The only damage that was inflicted was from heat damage, not a true simple melee attack.  Something very wrong with the system, not only on the player side, but also on the mob side.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Incident three:  42 Cleric, 44 Troub, 45 Swash, 44 Swash, Permafrost.  This group of four people took on every mob from the zone in to the pugelists on the second level rampart.  Something seriously wrong with that.  Swashes both tanking, not even making a dent in the clerics pool.  Scouts are not tanks, no matter how badly we would like to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe the remedy to this issue is to not just attempt a fix on the player side, but also look at the mobs.  How does their agility come into affect?  Are the encounters really the poorly coded?  Why is it I very very rarely miss when attacking a mob in melee?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont see this as a class killing patch, maybe it will allow more versatility in the troub class as far as songs.  Maybe it wont.  Maybe it will open the door to more balancing, maybe it wont.  Maybe it will force fixes to the numerous broken skills and songs given to the troubs and dirges....right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~fina</DIV>

[britn]

How about this... 2 nearly full groups of 45+ zone into DFC to fight the Emperor. Grey con lvl 41. He kills everyone, with barely a dent in his life.I have also never experienced a group where the scouts could tank as good, or better than a true tank. Never ever. Seeing as how tanks get armor, more hp, self buffs, AND the same group buffs we troubs get how is it even possible for a scout to outtank them? Something just doesn't add up here.

[Nevari]

<blockquote><hr>britney wrote:Seeing as how tanks get armor, more hp, self buffs, AND the same group buffs we troubs get how is it even possible for a scout to outtank them? Something just doesn't add up here.<hr></blockquote>Good point but I think it's rather about how the troub does wield the odds against mobs rather than compared to another class.So in the end for me it seems the approach is a nerf rather than a tweak. Meaning nerf a class instead of balancing the content like it was done with the to-hit chance for level 40 and higher mobs.In my book it's the wrong way to nerf a class but it's also the easier one from developer side. Less time, money talks. Sad.

[SingleTra]

<DIV>I wouldnt say it is directed mainly at bards.  Look at the monks.  They are greatly reliant on agility.  What is this going to do to them?  The point is this.  Agility > Armor Class at this point in time.  This simple equation does not make sense and should be corrected.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a hard time seeing how this change can be associated directly at one class at this point.  Having not played on test, I cannot say what direction this is truley meant to go.  I am merely taking into account what I have been wittness to, what I have had the pleasure of overhearing, and what the track record of SoE has been in the past.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless we have some direct info from test, all of this is very hypothetical and all is completely falling in the category of "expecting the worst."  I also do see within the original post that it does state the mobs attributes will play a role in combat situations as well.  Rather difficult to say to what level the player vs. mob differentiation will be without actually seeing it.  I do view it as a balancing change because they are looking at both sides of the combat encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will the changes force me into a new class?  Not at all, I have too many other options as a bard.  So what if I cant tank anymore, I may have to actually use an aggro reduction song and allow the actual tank, tank....what a concept.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will this make the bard class less attractive for a group?  I highly doubt it.  Haste and power my friends.  Those are the two things that will never change.  I did it every 2.75 seconds in the first Everquest, and I will do it every 3 to 10 minutes in Everquest II.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for soloing in EQ2 as a Troubadour, I wont miss it, I rarely do it as is.  You chose a utility class, play it as one or go sulk in the taverns of the city, wishing you could solo a green again.  I do remember that in eq1 I couldnt stand toe to toe with anything that gave me xp as a bard, I had to kite that crap, and that wasnt due to lack of gear.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In closure, I will not cry nerf at this point in time.  I will await the day it is implemented on the live servers, if ever.  This is why they have the test server, right?  I can only hope.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~fina </DIV>

[Nevari]

You right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Good input and 5*Guess the SOE ghost did lurk around the corner here thinking about past experiences with other MMORPG. Soooooo let's wait till the serves come up again as my guild allready waits to visit Ferrott wheee fun fun fun! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Haazhel Tho]

As I said our haste is useless at lv 50 with haste and fbss and dual wield my damage isnt much better than with 1 hand and shield without haste. Why ? because most our damages come from combat arts.Theres something about this here http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=31&message.id=3014&view=by_date_ascending&page=1or you can try to download a parser like combatstats and test.Also a good tank can keep agro just fine they dont need our agro song.

[KX88]

<DIV>Lol I figured this change already took place.  Was soloing even con crabs(level 23) and a couple of times had to charm and run. Maybe it was lag.  Soloing exists but xp pales in comparison to grouping. I have completed AQ4 and my gear is probably as good as  it's ever been.  </DIV>

[bmcd]

<DIV>I think the problem is, and what upset the very vocal few plate tanksis that with the 3 song stacking issue you can buff others scouts up with godlike agility.  Then scouts, like assasins, are able tank ^ ^  mobs better than plate tanks.  I think though that is a two edged sword and plate tanks will be missing the godlike agility too.  I just hope that that fix does not turn monks, like mine, into a pure dps class with zero utuilty spells.</DIV>

[SingleTra]

<DIV>Today is the day.  Looks like it was implemented today, so lets get some numbers out.  I shall see if there is any major changes this evening, once I am off work.  Their patch example looks as if it was a corrective action towards people exploiting certain aspects......not quite sure.</DIV>

[shan]

it is not coming, it already arrived.

[WinterKnigh]

<DIV>I just like how when the first big patch came they ran sooooo long on the test server to make sure everything was right... This patch lasted what? 3 days maybe? I think Sony jumped the gun with this patch and it does hurt... bad. Mobs now chase forever and I can't solo things I was soloing just fine before the patch, and this is as a level 20 troubador... Where will things go from here?</DIV>

[Sharkan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WinterKnightD wrote:<BR> <DIV>Where will things go from here?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>they'll go to WoW <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR><BR>well...that's what will happen for me the day i'm too [Removed for Content] off with my "rusty" troubadour being more like a half scout without much flavor than a real fun and shiny troubadour.</P> <P><sighs> if rules were more understandable instead of hiding everything behind a cloud of smoke, people would know why they use abilitys, what are the effect of buffs and why some need to be nerfed, and some don't.<BR>I wish i could know the rule behind AC, how parry or block works, how strengh affect damage, etc</P> <P>With such opaque rule like the one SOE give us, it's easy to be frustrated, because, you can hardly figure why some buffs or abilitys were too powerfull, and what other tools you can use to play the class well...</P> <P>Hey, mister lead Game Designer, you should know that there's no interest in playing with hidden rules and that the only good game is the one telling people how things work so everyone knows what it does and can decide why he does prefer this abilitys more than this other one.<BR>Interest in games come from choices player make, and you can't make good choice when you have no clues (or so little) about the tools (abilitys and skills) you are using.<BR>Hiding things only lead to frustration, and frustration make people leave your game...</P> <P>A player who's work in real life is...game designer...<BR></P>

[shan]

i consider myself lucky since i can always play my main which i still enjoy but untill things change i see no point in playing a troub really. and i feel sad for those whos main isa troub they are TOTALLY gimped with this nerf.the ONLY reason i made a troub is due to them being group friendly, i solo when i am dual boxing since my attention will be devided but other then that i avoid soloing.with this current "fix" ( i really would like to know the name of the person who was behind this call) we are as group friendly as trolls are handsome.to SOE..you always claim you monitor the boards, out of curtousy(sp?) let us hear your thoughts on that matter

[rivethead]

My "main" was a Conjurer and I was having trouble finding groups. I started a Bard because I don't want to heal.. I don't want to tank. I want to do something different, yet be desirable in groups. I soloed a few greens that aggroed on me while I was LFG and was down to 25% health on each one of them. Sadly these same greens a few days ago I would smack around and still have about 70% health.