Do you feel that you are contributing to the group?

[AllosZel]

I have a 21 troubadour. I am lucky that most of the time I group with my guildmates. The reason I say this is even as a troubadour myself, I fail to see why this class is needed in a group.A group NEEDS healers. A group needs a meatshield to take damage. A crowd controller would be nice. Damage dealer would make killing faster.Where do we fit in? Most of the spells have no noticeable effect on the group. Okay, I play the STR/ STA/ AGI song. Does anyone really notice that they hit harder? With my song, will it make the group able to kill something they would not be able to do without me? I don't think so.As a bard/ troubadour, I expect myself to be able to do mana regen song, hit point regen song, do some melee damage, able to do some crowd control, able to run fast, able to charm and order the monster to fight for me, able to haste my group ...Am I asking a lot? YES! I am troubadour and I should be able to contribute to my group. I am a group-oriented-class.I expect myself doing a lesser job than a dedicated class.. so a chanter can do a better mana regen/ crowd control song, a druid better hp regen spell and such. But I would to be able to do a wide range of abilities (although not good at anything <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Not the best, but at least I would feel myself useful to group.Right now I think bard is too damage-oriented. Please do something to make it a more jack of all trade job.Please improve this job. I love to be a bard and I want to be useful.Oh yes, that Level 20 class unique song is a joke. Not a good joke that a troubadour should be able to tell, but a bad bad joke.<p>Message Edited by AllosZeldo on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

[KDv2]

<DIV>I think they envision bards as "jack of all trades, master of none..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But unfortunately as we stand right now, we're "jack of all trades, negligible in all..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Power song is not worthwhile.</DIV> <DIV>- I'm sure our health song will not be worthwhile.</DIV> <DIV>- Our CC is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our songs do not do anything that is noticable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, even though we don't bring much to the group, I'm still having fun with the class for now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd be super happy if they made our CC abilities worth something though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not many encs to go around, and bards should be able to fill the gap, but with our current abilities, we cannot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happy for now, but I see this class sliding into the abyss.</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>27 and climbing here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must say I disagree on Bards/Troubadors not bringing anything to a group. Sure, we may not have a defined role, but be a mix of buffer and dps, but groups still feel a big impact from going without a bard to with one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much all groups I've been in, where I've taken the place from another scout class, people say things go much better. We add somewhere around 40-ish to primary damage and defence stats for all fighters, we have the option to increase offence and defence of all classes and we contribute good DPS which isn't far behind the top DPS classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, there are issues with low-effect regens and lack of CC, but that still doesn't make the bard undesireable. My hope is, that the higher versions of our regens will get strong enough for people to stabnd up and take note of them, rather than the current situation where most are more surprised than aware, that a bard in a group makes it a better group.</DIV>

[KDv2]

<DIV>Well I certainly respect your opinion, although your groups may be better because you play well and the person you replaced didn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The groups I get into go well regardless if I play songs or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure we add to offense and defense and to stats, but does that:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make the tank take less damage? Certainly not noticably so.</DIV> <DIV>Make for higher hits/crits? No. I more than double my strength, and I hit exactly the same.</DIV> <DIV>Make the group put out more damage? Not noticably so.</DIV> <DIV>Mobs die faster? Can't say they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can argue perception vs. reality, but I'll say if you don't notice it, it isn't reality. Once we get some parses in with these songs, the painful truth will be much clearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully we get alot better later on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not want to be DPS with some useless tricks.</DIV>

[Seth]

<DIV>Im troubadour 29 on french server (so sorry for my poor english)</DIV> <DIV>The regen mana is very usefull IN fight : the base regen is 9power /tick+the song regen its 7power/tick with just appII</DIV> <DIV>The add dps proces 1or more per mob at 100 degat so with 2 other melee its a free 300 degat per mob</DIV> <DIV>The buff stat i agree its not very noticable (i think we hit near for the max per swing and the MT parry/esquive a lot more)</DIV> <DIV>The 2 buff hast do not stack. The one at level28 is like the 14 but with a little buff agy but i have not mastery the skill atm.in 1 minute i swing 48 time with a 1,2 delay weapon. with the buff 64 time/ minute(adeptI skill).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But THE primary JOB of troubadour its a very powerfull anticasteur.A power full direct drain who drain 120 power and a power dot who dot 20 per tick.(we have 2 other spell who drain power but i havent notice realy how its work)</DIV> <DIV>I can make a level30++ mob oom in 10 sec and we have a buff who interrup casteur.The priest-like class Heal a lot less .</DIV> <DIV>But also our own dps its by far less than other dps class. I have 2 shout who did 150 dmg a backstab who did 150 dmg when the priestlike debuff monster and the sneak attk who did between 100 and 300 dmg. But  we are in front of fighter in terme of dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Seth]

<DIV> <DIV>Im troubadour 29 on french server (so sorry for my poor english)</DIV> <DIV>The regen mana is very usefull IN fight : the base regen is 9power /tick+the song regen its 7power/tick with just appII</DIV> <DIV>The add dps proces 1or more per mob at 100 degat so with 2 other melee its a free 300 degat per mob</DIV> <DIV>The buff stat i agree its not very noticable (i think we hit near for the max per swing and the MT parry/esquive a lot more)</DIV> <DIV>The 2 buff hast do not stack. The one at level28 is like the 14 but with a little buff agy but i have not mastery the skill atm.in 1 minute i swing 48 time with a 1,2 delay weapon. with the buff 64 time/ minute(adeptI skill).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But THE primary JOB of troubadour its a very powerfull anticasteur.A power full direct drain who drain 120 power and a power dot who dot 20 per tick.(we have 2 other spell who drain power but i havent notice realy how its work)</DIV> <DIV>I can make a level30++ mob oom in 10 sec and we have a buff who interrup casteur.The priest-like class Heal a lot less .</DIV> <DIV>But also our own dps its by far less than other dps class. I have 2 shout who did 150 dmg a backstab who did 150 dmg when the priestlike debuff monster and the sneak attk who did between 100 and 300 dmg. But  we are in front of fighter in terme of dps.</DIV></DIV>

[Seth]

<DIV>Sorry for the double post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When i say anti casteur, its work for common melee monster.The most dmg they make tis barrage, crush etc. without power they can do nothing</DIV>

[KDv2]

<DIV>No worries, thanks for the insight!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the 27 power song is giving 7 per tic? Is that making a difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anti-caster specialist eh? Nice. :smileywink:</DIV>

[Seth]

<DIV>Yes if you calculate  with the regen song its near 2 heal and 2 blast per casteur / mn so with 6mn buff its a free 12 cast/casteur(at my level i think it ll be less efficient with gaining level)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with a friend guardian (level27) me and a friend cleric (levle29) today we have chain NON stop white/blue con++ monster.I think its impossible without a mage for oh regen power or barde song.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Seth]

<DIV>The level21 charm its not really a CC. Its more like a spell for save the poor caster who is aggro.BUT its not very usefull because  we cant charm ++ monster (90% of problematique encounter)</DIV>

[AllosZel]

Nice to hear that at higher level troubadour is more efficient.When I started playing as a bard I did not envision myself as a dps dealer. I was content to sit down and be a "group" player.Well maybe EQ2's bards are quite different from tranditional bards. I just hope that our works get recognized and we are useful. I am not saying that we are 'necessary' in a sense that without us a group cannot be formed. I just hope that we are not wasting 1 slot in the group.So far (just dinged 24 or 23 can't remember lol) the best spells I have are the stats buff song, pathfinding, haste song. At the moment my lvl13 app2 bria is the joy I bring to guild -- people can tease me how useless it is and have a good laugh....All in all, I am still happy about my job. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ib]

<DIV>Im a level 25 tro and I can easily say I see I bring tons to the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept 1 rousing tune+roxxyls gives around 50 strength and stamina mixed with app 3 agility buff song gives 80 agility</DIV> <DIV>the mana song at app3 also helps a lot</DIV> <DIV>Also use the haste app 3 spell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at 25 I also have the Evac spell and that has helped me group a few times already escape or win in the jman boots heritage quest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont see a lot of useful level 45-50 spells, but who knows, so far they seem extremely useful.</DIV>

[Ib]

<DIV>also I notice weith my dual wielded steel rapiers I seem to get the kill without even trying about at least 65% of the time.</DIV>

[ke]

Don't forget that they plan on implementing insturments. If instruments truly add value then we may be very well off/right in line.Sony probably has a dev working on insturments. It wouldn't make sense to take the dev off insturments to work on us getting balanced without them, then put the dev back on insturments. Then we are either overpowered or insturments are a joke. Then if we are overpowered they have to nerf us in other areas after other classes start complaining. Then they have to deal with bards complaining about getting nerfed after they get instruments in.I know it sounds unrealistic but I have seen things like this happen in a few muds. I don't know how many devs they have working on us but the devs probably have a good ideal of what is a priority to our class.

[Cha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> keyd wrote:<BR>Don't forget that they plan on implementing insturments. If instruments truly add value then we may be very well off/right in line.<BR><BR>Sony probably has a dev working on insturments. It wouldn't make sense to take the dev off insturments to work on us getting balanced without them, then put the dev back on insturments. Then we are either overpowered or insturments are a joke. Then if we are overpowered they have to nerf us in other areas after other classes start complaining. Then they have to deal with bards complaining about getting nerfed after they get instruments in.<BR><BR>I know it sounds unrealistic but I have seen things like this happen in a few muds. I don't know how many devs they have working on us but the devs probably have a good ideal of what is a priority to our class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>oh yeah, no kidding.</P> <P>just as long as they don't "require" us to carry instruments.</P> <P>I have a flute for this, a drum for that, etc...</P> <P>wow, muds. that takes me back a bit. </P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: </P> <P>argh, I mean just as long as we can still cast songs at a "base" level without having to carry 50 different instruments. That was one thing that was annoying with the MUDS I used to play. I always had too many instruments, then again I could carry 50 things without a single bag. I seem to have a "out of slot" issue with my toons.</P><p>Message Edited by Charb on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 PM</span>

[SingleTra]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>23 bard here.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night, a couple paladins, a warrior, a wee cleric,  and a beserker were sitting in Stormhold, in Battlepriest Alexandria's room.  We had been sitting there for 5 hours and to be honost, i became lapse in keeping songs up.  Needless to say, we instantly had trouble when she did spawn, I strated rolling in the songs when I could and halfway through, another mob spawned on us and we knew we were going to have problems.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The healer was LoP, as in completely out.  I hit Bria's and it gave enough of a power increase to get off one last heal.  This did save the group. So, it is not completely useless. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I have been watching it closely because i do know within combat power regen does come to a halt.  I further tested this by pulling a couple feign zombies to the room (completely across the zone).  Lost one of the two zombies in the floor or the walls, somewhere, but we still had the encounter.  While still in the encounter and the inability to sit and regain some power, Bria did regenerate untill we were able to find the lost mob.  Helpful?  Yes, during combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the level 20 class specific song, good for a laugh the first couple times,  a party favor.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only time will tell the definative answer to the bards actual use.</DIV>

[Aillaw]

<DIV>22 Troub here.  I find that we do bring some things to the table.  The only thing i would say is that our mana regen should be much better.  Right now its pretty [Removed for Content] and I don't care if it even works outside an encounter as long as it works very well while engaged.  We should do one thing well at least and I think that is it.  I do care if they nerf our dps for it.</DIV>

[Xran]

I feel I am @ L21...but definitely a lot of Troubador or Bard spells in general could use a fix or upgrade.- Rousing tune 20 stats bonus is nice. Not sure how significant it is.- I tried a mix of Rousing Tune, Songster's Luck, Bria's stirring Balald (power regen) and Reproaching Discante (AE debuff). Seems to work better than the combo of Rousing Tune, Merciless Melody and Songster's Luck. I occasionally swap Arcane Chorus depending on the power left for the healer.- I am not sure how good the attack haste is really.- Bria's Entrancing Sonnet (Charm) is next to useless. 5 min recast time?! A 15sec charm time?I think that's a pointless charm. On charm break, orange mob, the mob will mow me down faster than the fighter can taunt.And when fighter's taunt, they lose their attention on the main mob and healers will have to waste power on healing me.<p>Message Edited by Xrande on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 PM</span>

[Seth]

<DIV>After some test solo on Orc at ZEK who was level31 (im level30):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Without buff, just with regen hp song i finish the fight with 10% hp and 50% power (i had must spent all power in the dd who take lot of power).</DIV> <DIV>-With rousing thune /hp regen/ aria of exitement/ the self buff stat who take one con (dont remember the name) i finish the fight with 80%-90% hp (less if im not lucky. in 30 fight i finish 25 with 80% and 5 with 50%+ hp)and 70% or 80% power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Rousing thune and the other STAT buff are very important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The regen song who heal just 16hp/tick (appII) its very usefull in solo(essential) and can be usefull in groupe with cleric if we fight white con casteur without delta (they do near 200degat/member the cleric with regen just focus on the MT for heal.)but with 2conc for use it,i prefere hast buff or skill buff</DIV>

[Xalter]

<DIV>27 almost 28 Troub here. If you Adept 3 the level 27.6 powersong you end up with 1% power regen per tick. I say 1% because, I've noticed it scaling. With a party buffed I can tote around 1200 power - I get 12 per tick then. When I'm by myself I have around 1000 power, I get about 9 per tick then. So at 2000 power it'll be 20 per tick..in other words bother on the adept 3 with bria's at 27.6 - I'm sure the level 30 regen song is worth it too. If you hadn't noticed...Rousing Tune and Energizing Harmony stack - resulting in, what I currently get is about +45 to the primary stats of agi, str and sta. Does this help? Well...I did some testing on my group. Tank got hit alot more without them up than with them up, on average damage mitigation saves went up with both up...heck I can solo double up arrow green named with these 2 songs going. I usually mix in haste and then powersong. If a healer starts getting stomped I turn off brias and blast arcane chorus 2-3 times, this gets the mob on me and off the healer. Our AC aint that hot, but if you try as I have to get it decent, its not that bad...that and with my goofy agility and insatiable ardor I'm a pain to hit, heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level 20 charm is a joke...the level 30 regen song better be nice. The level 50 mez better be the **ZOMG**e...still wondering why we gotta wait till 50 for it though...reminds me of the only speed song in FFXI being level 73...lol. I still feel theres hope for Troubs with an expansion, but as of right now...if you think your songs are silly tricks...well you need to do some more testing. :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Xalter]

<DIV>Doubling up to clarify one thing...while life sucks to 50...this game is going to have expansions and the level cap will raise...and when it does, the dirges will have their silly battle rez's while the troub's have their level 50 mez. Think about that. :smileywink:</DIV>

[Dracc]

I'm currently level 22. I feel that I contribute to a group 100%. I love my class.