Feedback on Troubador

[Ragnarok]

<DIV><EM><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>NOTE (Jan 9th 2005): If anyone wants to copy the content of this post and continue providing the devs feedback and suggestions, feel free to go ahead. The lack of interest show from the devs to topics like these, kills my interest in keeping the thread updated.</FONT></STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>(Last updated: 10th of December 3:40am PST)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a list of issues that currently excist with the Troubador subclass, and Bards in general. The issues mentioned in this post are a variety of gameplay and cosmetic issues, they are split up, and put in order after what seem the most discussed on these forums and other community sites. Once Issues mentioned in this post are solved, I will create a seperate topic which I will add all solved issues to ,that way people can see when work is done to further develop our class.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></EM></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Anyways, onwards with the issues:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Issue 1: Spells & Conc Issues</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>1.1. Inability to overwrite already running spells</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV>This may be the same for all spellcasters, I don't know, but none of our spells overwrite. Say you have Rousing Tune, Bria's Stirring Ballad, Merciless Melody and Arcane Chorus running, you've filled up all your 5 conc slots. Now you cannot cast any of those spells again to overwrite the timer, without first cancelling them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.2. Toggle-able spells/songs.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is much in continuation of the issue above. Why are we force to allways use the maintained bar to cancel out our maintained spells? You could make our jobs so much easier and less stressing on the wrist (having to use mouse to cancel maintained, no other option), if you just made our spells work much in the same way "Melee Attack" works, where the button is pressed once to attack, maintaining attack untill pressed again. Do the same for our songs, please, just let us click once to start the song, let it be maintained untill we either press it again, or it expires.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.3. Bards/Troubadors cannot group together.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This issues has been mentioned a few times by now, there are real big issues with Bards/Troubadors and their inability to group together. Our songs do not stack, our attacks with effect do not stack, and not only do they not stack, the bard with the lower skill/ability is pretty much limited to do unstyled attacking because of the "Would not take effect"-issues that is linked to us not being able to stack or overwrite eachothers effects.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.4. Songs/abilities have low effect.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This issues is becomming more and more discussed by Bards/Troubadors. A majority of our spells make very little difference, especially Bria's Stirring Ballad. Since no Bards/Troubadors are yet high enough to test the next level of, for example, mana regen (Bria's Thrilling Ballad - lvl 27), this issue is still somewhat insecure. Nevertheless, there seems to be little clarity amongst other players of just how big an impact a Bard/Troubador has on a group, either due to our effects not being powerfull enough, or them not being noticed. We have only 5 conc points, meaning we can run a maximum of 3-4 songs, these songs should be powerfull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.5. Spell/Song duration and cost.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This issue is becomming increasingly debated, especially as people level and encounters start taking longer. The duration of most our maintained spells is too low, 3-8 minutes is not long enough, especially considoring the issues with inability to overwrite already running spells (see 1.1.). Most our songs should either run untill we decide to cancel them, or be given a much longer timer. Also, many of our styles require a rather large amount of power points to use, resulting in Bards/Troubadors quickly running low on power, often faster than the pure casters of the group.</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.6. Crowd control, or lack thereof.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Honestly I find it strange, that a troubador would be given a buggy (to say the least) charm at level 20, but has to wait untill 30 to get any sort of "silence" spell, not to mention having to wait untill 50 for a mesmerize. A traditional bard has CC to some extent, and this is sorely missed from the Troubadors arsenal.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.7. Unique spell, not unique at all.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This has also been mentioned by others, and bards really got the short end of the stick when it came to individual ability. Single target /dance with minimal effect, no song or sound of any kind, I feel cheated. Once again, a good example of something that makes the bard classes feel rushed. At least make it a group spell and add some sound, or change it. </DIV></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.8. Pathfinding.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Does this thing ever get faster? At 24 I still run at the same speed as I did at level 4 or whenever I got it. This should become increasingly more effective as you level, at least to a +200% running speed at 50, if not 250% or more. Tied to issue 2.4., the alternative could be to give us a faster travel spell as Unique Ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><STRONG>Solutions to Issue 1:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Make our spells either overwriteable (see 1.1) or toggle-able (see 1.2). Let us in some way have the ability to recast our songs withtout having to wait for them to expire or manually cancel them in the maintained bad or conc bar.<BR></LI> <LI>Bard/Troubador spells need to either overwrite one another, or be stackable. As it stands now, 2 Troubadors in a group is more of a hindrance than a benifit (see 1.3).<BR></LI> <LI>Songs need a buff or a change, many of our current spells/songs have little to now effect on the group (see 1.4). If they do raise significantly when the "next generation" of the spell is earned, something else needs to be done to make group members aware of the effect of the Bard/Troubador song. For example, Bria's Ballad could write "You feel your power replenish slightly faster", Merciless Melody could write "You feel yourself attacking at greater speed" in the chat log. This should be implemented for all spells, not just Troubador, "An augmentation song affects Xx" is too vague and gets quite boring to look at real fast. We only have 5 conc points, we can never make use of all our songs at once, so those songs that we are able to run should at least have a visible effect in terms of strength.<BR></LI> <LI>Spell/Song/Style duration and cost. Something has to be done to the timers on our songs, they are too low in general (see 1.5). The timers as such are fine to the mid-teens, but once battles start taking longer it becomes increasingly noticeable just how short our durations are. They should be at least tripled to say 15-20 minutes, or preferably permanent untill the Bard/Troubador decides to cancel them. Also, many of our regular styles have a high power cost when considoring we also have to recast songs, power costs should be looked into. <BR></LI> <LI>Give us (more) crowd control (see 1.6). Silences, roots or mesmerizes would be preferred.<BR></LI> <LI>Rework our Unique Class Ability spell/song (see 1.7), plenty of good suggestions can be found in <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=89" target=_blank>this thread</A>.<BR></LI> <LI>Upgrade pathfinding (see 1.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and/or give us a faster travel ability as Unique Class Ability (see 1.6).</LI></UL></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Issue 2: Eye Candy</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>2.1. No song and barely any music.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>At 25 I have around 3 spells that got music, 3 out of 17, that's less than 25% (!!). Bria's Stirring Ballad with the guitar, and Performer's Talent + something else which both use the same drum animation. Most animations just shows the bard holding his chest and doing something which might be considored a singing animation, but there is no sound other than some sort of "wooo" magic standard sound.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>2.2. Styles, no variation.</STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Sparkling Blade, Luckblade, Taffo's Brilliant Blade. Can anyone tell me the difference? All 3 use the same animation, weapons lifted up across left shoulder and swung downwards and right. Walt's Singing Blade and Sneak attack I believe are the only different ones, which has a sort of stab animation to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sound in our styles is pretty much non-excistant, despite nodes flying left and right when you use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300ff size=4><STRONG>Solutions to Issue 2:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI>Take a little time to add sound and visual effects to Bard/Troubador songs and combat styles, some music and/or song would go a long way here.<BR></LI> <LI>Song voices (if implemented) should be varied depiding on race and gender.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Issue 3: Gameplay Issues and bugs</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2><EM><STRONG>(Solutions are given under the sub-issues in this section, not summed up in the end.)</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000> <DIV>  <DIV><STRONG>3.1. Safe Fall does not work. <FONT color=#ffff00>(Added Dec. 2nd)</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Not sure how much of an explanation this needs. Safe Fall is impossible to raise in any way, personally I have 36/157 at level 31 and no matter how many tables, hills or cliffs I jump off, it never raises.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>3.1. Songsters Luck stealthnerfed? <FONT color=#ffff00>(Added Dec. 10th)</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>In the beginning of December Songsters Luck dropped around 66% in efficiency (See more info <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=293" target=_blank>here</A>). No explanation has yet been given as to why it was changed, wether it is a bug or an intentional decrease of the skill. Enlighten us, please?</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>3.2. Hallmark Reward.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>I can only speak for the Qeynos side, as that is the one I am from. And this issue has already been mentioned quite a few times: Why is our class weapon at level 20 a 1handed and not a DW? No Bard/Troubador that I've ever met, has gone 1h and shield in battle. We are not tanks, we are a DPS class. We DW by nature. Why ruin a perfectly good weapon, especially a hallmark one? All it is good for in it's current state, is 50ish silver on the market. Look in </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=30" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffffff>this thread</FONT></A><FONT color=#ffffff> for more info. This weapon should be DW.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>3.3. Sparkling Blade</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Sparkling Blade clogs up the maintained spell area 5-7 times pretty fast if you're out hunting, very annoying. This needs to either overwrite, or expire once the mob dies.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>3.4. Troubador or Troubadour?</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>You need to decide wether you want to include the last u or not. I've seen Troubador spelled with the additional u quite a few places, including the hallmark quest "Path of the Troubadour".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>3.5. Instruments, will they ever have any use?</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>As far as I know, at the current time, there are no use of instruments. While I applaud not making them factor in during combat as such, I still think a use of some sort should be added, perhaps an entertainment-line of sorts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=4><STRONG> <HR> </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=4><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=4><STRONG>Conclusion</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tho the Bard & Troubador class in general is working as intended, those of us that play it are still left with the impression, that not much was ever done to bards in terms of gameplay, class debt, or "eye candy". When you look at the descriptions of the Bard and Troubador you get the impression that it's a Vocal and Musical class, but we barely have any soundeffects at all, and that's a real shame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Bard & Troubador is a fun class, with a little more work this class could be perfected.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RagnarokDK on <span class=date_text>01-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[Raol]

Hear hear! I've been keeping a list of similar issues myself (and thanks for the post reference).Why is there not a idea/suggestion/issue reporting forum? I'd think it'd make it a lot easier on the employees who read the boards.

[Seth]

<DIV> <DIV><STRONG>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>8. Toggle-able spells/songs.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This is much in continuation of issue 3. Why are we force to allways use the maintained bar to cancel out our maintained spells? You could make our jobs so much easier and less stressing on the wrist (having to use mouse to cancel maintained, no other option), if you just made our spells work much in the same way "Melee Attack" works, where the button is pressed once to attack, maintaining attack untill pressed again. Do the same for our songs, please, just let us click once to start the song, let it be maintained untill we either press it again, or it expires</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it is the most important feature to modify for the gameplay of the bard in general</DIV></DIV>

[LudaChr]

<DIV>I am just a few hours away from trying out our "Charm Spell" - but from what I hear it is terrible. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sucks to know that our fun spell at 20 is only a single target, I figured the whole group would dance in unison with a song effect like ones already in place :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The worst thing right now is the fact that <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>you can't refresh a song without first canceling it from the maintained spells window!!! </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>PLEASE FIX THIS!! :smileysad:</FONT></STRONG></DIV>

[Bladezil]

<DIV>Best Troubador thread so far. It sums up my complaints.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4>- Valcutio <FONT color=#ff0033>Phoenix </FONT>/ <FONT color=#333333>Blade</FONT><FONT color=#006600>zilla</FONT> Killa -</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Ladro209]

Sums up my complaints as well. The nice thing is, even with my list of complaints, I still love playing this class and plan to play it whether they fix this list or not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ixt]

I would add two others for consideration.(1) We get various regeneration songs, one of which we get early on -- Bria's. It's almost a waste to use -- it takes a concentration slot and does not provide a noticeable benefit. It is not enough of an increase during combat to make an impact, and when not in combat, it's more effective to simply gulp down a 6 copper flask of water and get far, far better regeneration of power. (2) I don't know how it is with other classes, but no bard songs stack with each other ... so having 2 similar types of bards in a group (2 bards, 2 troubs, 2 dirges), means that only the highest level bard (or the one with the best skill upgrades) of the group buffs actually gets used -- so if you can't overwrite the other bard's buffs, you're pretty much a weak DPS addition to a team. Multiple rogues are great, multiple fighters are a joy, no one complains when there's multiple healers or wizzies ... but bards?*shrug* just some things to consider.

[sharkdan]

I 5-starred your post. I'm 10% from level 20 and have noticed the same isues.My top two are:NO CROWD CONROLINABILITY TO OVERWRITE (rebuff before song expires)I'm sorry, but if I'm completely powerless to do crowd control (in the form of selo's, taunt, snare, or charm) when the cleric is getting their tails handed to them, there just ain't no point in being a bard. I understand the need for enchanters, heck I agree with it. However, last night I discovered enchanters at that level have a 6-second delay on mezz, meaning there's nobody to fill in the gap when things start to go bad.I know EQ2 bards are different and that's fine. I guess I just still hoped for the one thing that made us different in Everquest: The ability to change tactics and adapt to the needs of the group. I'm finding that our new role is simply a buffer/back-stabber. The concentration system is fine, except it prevents me from playing any songs that would allow me to change tactics when I already have songs up. Never mind the whole waiting for the songs to drop in the middle of battle when you're already running low on power before you can rebuff thing. That makes no sense whatsoever.So if Troubador isn't where it's at, what class we should former Bards move to?

[At]

<DIV>Where is bard run speed enhancement?  It can't be pathfinding since that is pretty sucky and not bard only.  I want to run fast like bards in every other game!</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>Hey people,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your feedback, nice to see people can agree on some of the "biggest" issues with Bard/Troubador for now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I think I'll do next, is divide them into problem and solution, so if you have any more ideas to what can be done to enhance already mentioned issues, or new issues, fire away. I've already seen some great ideas from people and I'll try and sum it up later today.</DIV>

[Aillaw]

<DIV>I agree with everything stated here.  Question does anyone else have a real issue with going OOM?  I seem to go oom more quickly than anyone in my group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also things i would add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rather than being able to cancel spells i would settle for being able to rebuff spells already takin concentration slots before the spell has expired.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To reiterate, if your not gonna make bria's more helpful then at least rename it  Bria's useless ballad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not Troub specific but fix safe fall it doesn't work and you can't increase the skill.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aillawen on <span class=date_text>11-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[Akyl]

I definitely agree with everything in the list. With the crowd control issue, why give us a charm at all if you can't use it to command the creature? What it is in its current form is a short duration mesmerize with a long recast timer, with no graphic to show that you have done something to one of the creatures.You might want to add to point #1 the fact that bards still use the placeholder animations from beta. That animation you see on piercing shriek and the AE shout (gold circle that explodes out from creature) was something of a placeholder graphic that appeared on a whole bunch of abilities before they added the "real" animation. In beta, the AE shout would cause an explosion of red musical notes on each creature in the encounter. This changed for live to the placeholder graphic .. why? The same can be said for why they changed so many animations when the game went live to that singing one from their old drum / guitar (used to be much more widely used across spells in beta and gave you more of a "bard" feel). Not to mention the backstab abilities used to have a backstab animation, not the jumping animation. Not sure what happened there either.It's kind of disappointing to be around classes like shamen or druids (heck, any caster) and see their amazing skill animations, and then see ours are both incomplete and underwhelming. Plus, not knowing how much if anything you are adding to overall group efficiency. If Bria's is any indication, it isn't very much.Edit: Yes, getting Safe Fall & Sense Hidden to raise would be nice too.<p>Message Edited by Akylah on <span class=date_text>11-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 AM</span>

[Claritin]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG>1. No song and barely any music?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3333cc>I agree but pretty sounds and graphics rank fairly now on my priority list.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2. Styles, no variation.<BR><FONT color=#3300cc>Same as #1... Graphics... while nice are not my top priority</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>3. Lack of ability to overwrite.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc>Now we're talkin'! Yeah... this is a BIG annoyance.... Bria's lasts what 3 mins? Most of my other common ones 10 minutes... so every 30 mins I have to right click and cancel Bria's 10 times... and the other Three 3 times each... that is 13 right clicks every half an hour... I know it seems trivial.. but we actually do this more than 13 times... Like if I am full mana I will cancel and restart EVERY BUFF... EVERY SINGLE ONE... because there is no reason to sit at full mana and NOT refresh buffs (after all you might have them end mid-battle and then refreshing them will give you aggro).... so in all likelyhood we are talking possible 30 times every 30 minutes... which is every minute I am having to right click a buff cancel it then reactivate it.... it's annoying... very annoying.  Should be a cakewalk to fix.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>4. Pathfinding.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc>Superfast run speed detroyed EQ1 to some extent... they are trying to avoid this in EQ2.  However we should always be tied with or in 1st place for run speed.... I am not 100% sure we are there now... I don't run any foot races.  I have Pathfinding App3 which helps... I don't see it for sale much... not sure why.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>5. Hallmark Reward.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc>I hated the sword and shield concept so much that i only tried it for 15 mins before banking my sword... I am afraid to give it away or sell it because I think they might fix the sword into something USEFUL.  Currently I am using 2 pretty nice daggers... prior to lvl 20 I was using 2 whips... this is the way of the bard... not sword and shield.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>6. Crowd control, or lack thereof.<BR><FONT color=#3300cc>Our crowd control abilities are a joke at lvl 22... I don't know if it gets better.  If SOE intended for them to be a joke... fine... but if they didn't intend for them to be a joke they need to re-assess this.  I am not convinced crowd control is an area of focus for EQ2 bards... </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>7. Unique spell, not unique at all.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc>Ok... I actually enjoy this... especially when I have a stupid tank who pulls stuff to a location where you just KNOW you are going to get a mob add or 2.... Make them dance like an idiot and it will make you feel better.... most tanks get annoyed when you make THEM dance... which is why this ability amuses me so much.  It's hard to pretend you are all tough and hardcore when you are dancing like a pansy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>8. Toggle-able spells/songs.<BR><FONT color=#3300cc>This sounds like a good plan to me as well.... should be easy as hell to implement.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>9. Troubador or Troubadour?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc>I'm not concerned about this.... like at all.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>10. Instruments Will they ever have a use?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc>It would be nice... but as soon as they have a use... they have a need... as soon as they have a need.... we have to swap... Entertainment value... like just a couple animations we can get together and play in town or something would be kinda nice... but rank up there in priority with #1, #2, and #9.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300cc></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>The comment on Bards not able to group together is a very legit issue... our main focus of groupability stems from the fact we only have 5 concentration slots... however we don't have enough song variety even at lvl 22 where a Troubador and Dirge Combo would yield enough benefit to make it NOT SUCK.  I understand we can spam attacks more if we are not having to buff... and there are a couple things that the everage bard doesn't have enough concentration to maintain but would like to have up if we had a 2nd bard... but just not enough for a group to want us both.  I can understand not balancing troubador + troubador as a legit 2 scout group... but a Troubador + Dirge 2 scout group should be worth while at the very least.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc33><STRONG>Now for my personal complaint...</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc33><STRONG>Alot of our effects are quite weak... </STRONG><SPAN class=postbody>Aria of Excitement for instance rarely ever seems to proc.... if I am going to waste a slot of concentration power on it I should be able to see a decent amount of damage.... maybe my combat filters on other players are hiding the true amount of damage it is really doing... but if I proc once a gight with 111 agility I consider that normal... and the proc is for like 50 damage.... if we have 3 "melee" people and they each proc once... 150 damage... 150 damage is about where shriek gets me... and doesn't use a slot of concentration.  Songster's luck effect is like invisible... as is Insatiable Ardor... I am not even sure performer's talent has a big effect on the overall team dynamic... but atleast I caan see a change in stats on that one.  If a bard is to be desired in groups... the group needs to SEE what the bard has done for them.... it needs to be a noticable difference or has to be somewhere where we can see a skill level change on a menu somewhere... like with performer's talent I can atleast say "check your Agi.... now check it again"  please make everything we do be a visible change.... adding 2% to skill is not noticable in combat or on stats... and therefore does not give us the credit we deserve.... I can deal with it being small I think... if I can just point them to something they can SEE.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc33><SPAN class=postbody></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc33><SPAN class=postbody>Don't get me wrong... *I* think we are useful... every group I join that is even partially well designed (1 of each archetype minimum... and no one is sleeping at the keyboard or so dense they appear to be sleeping at the keyboard) always gets the comment "**ZOMG** this is the best group I have ever been in!"  I think it's because of me.... I'm not sure... Bards amplify the power of the group... if you keep the right songs up all the time you can have a VERY LARGE impact.... the problem is the group doesn't know why the group ruled so much... and when looking for people they look for high DPS scouts like assassin.... they have to be shown why we are a great scout even though we have a weaker DPS.... even if it's just making the improvements we give <STRONG><U>more visible</U></STRONG> not more powerful.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc33><SPAN class=postbody></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody><FONT color=#ff9900>P.S. LOL... We get Safe Fall?  I was running down a 20 degree slope at App3 Pathfinding speed when I twisted my ankle... fell to my knees and took 400+ damage instantly killing me at lvl what 18?  I had assumed we didn't have safe fall.... I also assumed that there are some major bugs with falling damage... I mean a 20 degree slope... it's like tripping one one of the wheelchair ramps at a hospital... not even a bone cancer patient in real life would die from that.... and I have safe fall in armor... adventurer in the prime of my life... no ailments.....  Please make safe fall work... I have no idea what sense hidden is... never seen it do anything.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody><FONT color=#ffff33>Completely non-bard related side-note... when you get to a certain level in gathering skill... you should get a tradeskill ability called "eye of the harvester" or something like that... that allows you to outline resources with an "aura" to make them easier to see.  Should be fairly easy to implement... glowing items are already in the game... and the graphic isn't something that is part of the forest floor... it actually rests there as a seperate item.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Claritin on <span class=date_text>11-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>I just spent some time redoing the priority and put things under subjects, feel free to give any comments on the layout, good or bad, to leave it as is or to change it (and what to change it into).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see a few more issues have been mentioned. Rest asured that I read them all and I will update the issues list ASAP.</DIV>

[Akyl]

<blockquote><hr>Claritin wrote: If a bard is to be desired in groups... the group needs to SEE what the bard has done for them.... Bards amplify the power of the group... if you keep the right songs up all the time you can have a VERY LARGE impact.... the problem is the group doesn't know why the group ruled so much... <hr></blockquote>I totally agree with this. I understand that some of not seeing a difference (either in UI or just in general gameplay) may come from having low (app3/adept1) versions of the abilities and they need to scale up, but so far at 21 there isn't a lot of that "WOW! Bards rock!" factor like in EQ1 where there was a noticable impact in how fast a group could pull and how effective they were in general with a bard in the group. But then, there wasn't at release of EQ1 either..And today's patch put in a fix for Safe Fall not raising, so hopefully that reduces the amount of scout deaths by sprained ankle. I fell off a smallish rock once and almost died, so I can relate <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I know sense hidden type abilities let you see hidden (invisible) creatures and players. Not sure if that is the intent of the ability or if it is more around sense traps. Either way, it doesn't work and it doesn't raise.Also, maybe this should be added to the list (and I apologize if I missed it). Why do we have to have a concentration slot used AND a 10 minute timer? The other buffs on the other classes all last hours. I think we should either have short duration buffs w/ no timer or long duration concentration based buffs.

[Xran]

I checked with my friend. Performer's talent doesn't seem to affect group.

[Kal]

<DIV>I think we need to remember that while we might not have the "OMG, a bard!!!" feeling in EQ1, we also don't tickle mobs to death anymore.   We have def.  given up buffs for dps, for better or for worse depending on your POV.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If bards rocked as much as they did in live, there would be too many bards since twisting is no longer a class requirement.  I am convinced there were few bards in EQ1 because of this, and I was thankfull.  It was a class only to be played by an expert.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now my fingers are happy, but I do understand we couldn't be quite that powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now back to the thread - thanks for all the bug listings and suggestions!</DIV>

[Ki-a]

<DIV>I'm a 17 bard and am overall disappointed with my class so far. I planned on Troubador at 20 but am not so sure anymore as my power regens are barely noticeable so I assume health will be similar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Animations and sound are really disappointing. The ones that are they are great but they're just seem repeated as you get higher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really do feel like a gimped pred and will need some focus on bard/troub by the developers to want to continue with this character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone asked me, should they go bard, I'd have to tell them no based on my experience to lvl 17. Was really looking forward to a fun class too :smileysad:</DIV>

[Myrddhinn]

<DIV>I do agree with most of these points. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thought my priorities are not the same :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. What is a bard without music, without sounds, without voice. This is definitly my top priority. I have chosen a Bard for role-playing concerns and nothing is less immersive than a chant that is not sung or played.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. In second : Why do not we have any instruments ??? Why couldnt I craft usable instruments ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After, the DW/1H issue, the way our chants icons must be interrupted are only gameplay features issues i can stand. But i cannot stand my class being spoiled like this !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would Paladins have accepted an horse that could not run ?</DIV> <DIV>Would Summoners have accepted a creature that could be called but stay invisible, as an icon ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why would Bards have to accept songs that cannot be sung ? Instruments that cannot be played ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not whinning about "my bard is not as powerful as i wanted him to be" here. I am complaining about a spoiling policy that suggests some classes are less important (might this be because we are a minority ?) than others...</DIV>

[Gr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixtli wrote:<BR><BR>(2) I don't know how it is with other classes, but no bard songs stack with each other ... so having 2 similar types of bards in a group (2 bards, 2 troubs, 2 dirges), means that only the highest level bard (or the one with the best skill upgrades) of the group buffs actually gets used -- so if you can't overwrite the other bard's buffs, you're pretty much a weak DPS addition to a team. Multiple rogues are great, multiple fighters are a joy, no one complains when there's multiple healers or wizzies ... but bards?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As if that wasn't bad enough, ATTACKS WITH EFFECTS will not overwrite. If you're grouped with a higher level bard, Sparkling Blade or Walt's Singing Blade will say "Would not take effect" and you can't do them until the other bard's effect wears off.</DIV>

[kaosgra]

<DIV>Worst problem of all: Groupability. Not only can I not group to maximum effectiveness with other troubs, but my effectiveness is weakened by the presence of ANY OTHER scout class because our lower level  attack spells won't overwrite each other. Not a problem fighters have, or priests (with the exception of shammy wards/cleric reactive heals being incompatible, which also needs fixing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next worst: Buff duration/concentration. As stated above: either make my buffs last forever like everybody else's (it's not like they're overpowering...) or make them not take concentration slots. The current status is highly unfair. I've practically given up on all but Bria's and haste in groups, since those are the only ones anyone looks for anyway...I'll hit the others when I have time and concentration to spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third: Spelling. It's Troubadour. SOE, look it up and get it right. Sony's own player's guide spells it that way, half the game references do, the website used to...why oh why must my class be misspelled BY the GAME? I would've made a dirge if I'd known I'd have to look at "troubador" on my player window for the next 30 levels. Or even a predator, considering the rest of our balance problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fourth: Lvl21 charm. It's not *entirely* useless- I've bailed the healer out a few times. But it's buggy, the duration is too short and the refresh is *far* too long (no potential of being used more than once in a fight even though it's guaranteed to wear off before the fight's over). And there's really no point calling it a charm at all...might as well just call it a mez and not have that stupid pet window pop up. Now I understand not giving us something equivalent to chanter mez, that might be a bit much. But this spell is a joke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fifth: Lvl20 class reward weapon. Anybody using it? Didn't think so. I sold mine to a fighter-type I was grouping with because it was far better than his reward weapon (which also says something). I'll just keep using my Willow Wood Blade of Service and iron leafblade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sixth: Buff overwriting. I put this so low because although it is annoying, it's relatively harmless with respect to class balancing; like twisting, it just makes it more annoying to play the class, it doesn't make the class less useful. But it is a pain in the butt to rightclick-cancel-rebuff...especially with lag so bad my rightclicks are rarely recognized.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seventh: Trap disarming. I've been playing since day 1 hour 1 of my server, ninja-disarming every chest that came my way...and I'm now level 21 with a glorious Disarm skill of 78, which is actually fairly high compared to others of my level. I know it's supposed to be "fixed" (we can attempt to disarm higher level chests now) but, well, it's not. I'm not even getting 5 points a level, much less the 10-15 a level it would take to catch me up to where I could actually *succeed* at disarming. This is a problem for all scouts, not just bards. Disarm needs to go up faster or chests need to drop more often (maybe empty ones?) or we need a way to train it other than random chest drops...pick one. I'm tired of helplessly setting off 15-minute disease traps just to get copy#99999 of "The Treaty for Treasure."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last is all the cosmetic issues. Although I'd like to see more music and better animations and playable instruments, I can imagine them all perfectly fine...a little bit of open-ended RP is fun. I'd rather the balance problems were fixed first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also have one other gameplay comment. While we don't have to twist anymore, the constant spamming of attack abilities in combat (I have something like 15 useful offensive abilities and spells) combined with the lack of downtime makes EQ2 bard playing (for me) just as bad as twisting ever was. Maybe worse, because now I actually have to pay attention to refreshes...in EQL I just got the twist rhythm going on the numpad and held a conversation with my other hand. Now I can't hold a conversation in battle at all. And it sucks not being able to type and move at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In closing, I love being a bard. I love the RP aspect, I love the soloability (which really isn't bad) and I especially love watching myself fight...that's beautiful, whatever you say about the animations. But we need some tweaking. Lots of it. All scouts do...I've never, not once, heard a group "looking for scout" (or any scout class)...everyone wants tanks or healers, when they have 2 of each they start asking for mages, scouts are just used to fill extra spots that they can't get anyone else to fill. Either we really are useless or at the very least we appear that way. And bards have the lowest direct dps, so we may be the least in demand (since we basically fill a "dps spot").</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>Just updated the post today. Added points 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope we can somewhat agree on the way they're listed in terms of priority, and their possible solutions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a little doubt about the new 1.4 and 1.5, because none of us are high enough to test the next generation of most of the spells. My hopes are, that they are that much more powerfull and thus the issue won't be as big as I fear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't listed things such as Safe Fall and Disarm Trap, and that's because they a both supposed to be fixed now, after having been bugged. Personally my Disarm Trap is currently 112/127 at level 25.4, it has gone up alot lately after having been stuck at around 60 from lvl 10 to 22 or so, thus I considor it fixed. My Safe Fall is a whooping 36/127 and I have no clue how to raise it. If nothing happends to Safe Fall soon, I will add it as a bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, keep posting all your great threads on this forum, and your good replies to this post. Keeping both the forum and this thread alive is our way of showing we are a minority that should be taken sersiously.</DIV>

[Claritin]

<DIV>One more thing for point 1.7</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other class "special abilities" are not cast in combat... some people view me using my special ability a waste of battle-time.... I should be hitting a more useful song if I am going to waste a second and some power it should be done for DPS not to make the warrior dance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to admit I have not seen ALL of the class abilities or didn't recognize them as such... but the crusdader horses have a USE and are cast out of combat.  I think EVERYONE's but ours are cast out of combat... and I think only Crusader ones actually have a use.  This is NOT balanced.... so besides not unique... it needs balancing... if you don't add a "use" to it that's OK I guess since only crusaders got a "useful" one and we will not be alone... but don't make us waste power and time in combat it's not fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We get safe fall... and we get pathfinding.... perhaps you can give us a cluster of musical notes around our feet that gives us slightly better than pathfinding speed but also increase our safe fall skill while in use.  It doesn't have to be as fast as paladin horse due to safe fall increase.</DIV>

[Akyl]

Safe Fall certainly still seems to be broken, I spent about 20 minutes jumping off a ledge and taking damage and didn't see any skill point increases at all. I think it is pretty safe to add both that and Sense Hidden to the list.Scout stacking is a huge issue, thanks to the people who brought that up. Not only do you have skills that become unusable but it gets tense over who gets to disarm traps due to the lag in skill increases there. I personally prioritize gameplay issues over the eye candy and "I want instruments" issues. Stacking, song improvement, and crowd control improvements are far more important. I think that the concentration based 10 minute songs was actually done in response to bards in beta complaining in beta that without constantly singing they felt like weak scouts with buffs instead of bards. I never agreed with that, but then I'm not tied to the RP aspects of bards, I just like versitility. Also, I think our class dance is not a combat based ability. The only times I have ever used it was out of combat.If charm is overpoweringto the point that they implement it like they did, why not switch when we get it with mesmerize? Make it a real charm (meaning, we get a creature that can be used as a pet for something longer than 10 seconds) that we get at level 50, and put the mesmerize as the level 21 skill. I don't think enchanters even get charm until later. I would rather have a working charm at 50, than the version that we have now.Added: By the way, I have a BIG thank you for RagnarokDK for taking the time to make one comprehensive list. It's awesome!<p>Message Edited by Akylah on <span class=date_text>11-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[Chroniss]

Aria of excitement procs quite alot during bbattles, it gives off blue musical notes when it happens and I ussually see it go off about 5 times per fight on average.No idea on its damage, but its definitly working fine.EDIT: It just procced for 47dmg, it says in combat spam : YOUR troubador weapon hits %t for 47 points of mental damage.<p>Message Edited by Chroniss83 on <span class=date_text>11-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 PM</span>

[Caltic Bl]

<DIV>Yeah, I'm totally for these fixes it would defently make the troubador a ton more fun to play, as I am leveling and it is slowing down, I really don't have nothing to do but crafting... THE RUN SPEED WOULD BE NICE!!!!!</DIV>

[TopBram]

<DIV> <DIV>I agree completely with the main post, this addresses almost all of my concerns.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wanted to second the Bard run speed request.  Why can't we get Selos?  Bards have been the speed demons in almost every MMO out there, why can't we be here? I understand not wanting people to be running at insanely fast speeds, because this would unbalance gameplay and allow the player to run past KoS mobs easily, but it's incredibly stupid not to have a speed increase with Pathfinding since we first set foot on IoR. </DIV> <DIV>To the person that said he had Pathfinding App III:  I think they removed Pathfinding skills, I bought Apprentice 3 awhile ago, but now when I look at the Pathfinding skill, there is no skill marker at all.  It just says <STRONG>Pathfinding</STRONG>, that's it... No Apprentice I or II or III.  Are you guys trying to cripple the player base at this speed for our whole life? Is the only way to get a speed increase to dish out thousands of guild points or a lot of platinum on a bad **ZOMG** horse? Or do those even have a speed increase, I have heard from a lot of people that they are just for show.  Bards don't use Horses, Paladins use horses.  Bards use our Drums and our Voice to tear up the road.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Different types of Scouts excell in different areas.  Why can't one of those areas be Run Speed for Bards?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I almost completely forgot!  Why can we use our basic Sneak during combat, but not Walk Lightly?  Make all Bard Sneaks useable during combat, it's a real hinderince having to go through my spell book to hit our basic Sneak just to get off Luckblade or Ambush during an existing fight. </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by TopBramen on <span class=date_text>11-25-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[Brutalhou]

<DIV>I got something to add, I know this game is new and will have its tweaks and fixes. Think of this, EQ2 as we see it is the first of many expansions I am sure of it. Level 30 may seems high or mid range now. In about a year or so it will be the high bottom 3rd of leveling when the cap reaches 60/70 even 80 maybe. Then your spells will look like they intended (ie apprentace level or novice) so imo they should do much. You are not a master of that spell at level 14-20 or maybe in th elong run 30 for that matter. Just be patient and wait. You shared your complaints and they will get noticed. It is number 85 of 100 things to get done before the Christmas rush. </DIV> <DIV>I hope that relieves you a bit. Peace</DIV>

[KDv2]

<DIV>Agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll reinforce: Our CC ability is lacking, extremely lacking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please do not take months or years addressing this, you guys have a fresh start from the EQ1 debacle, make the most of it.</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brutalhound wrote:<BR> <DIV>I got something to add, I know this game is new and will have its tweaks and fixes. Think of this, EQ2 as we see it is the first of many expansions I am sure of it. Level 30 may seems high or mid range now. In about a year or so it will be the high bottom 3rd of leveling when the cap reaches 60/70 even 80 maybe. Then your spells will look like they intended (ie apprentace level or novice) so imo they should do much. You are not a master of that spell at level 14-20 or maybe in th elong run 30 for that matter. Just be patient and wait. You shared your complaints and they will get noticed. It is number 85 of 100 things to get done before the Christmas rush. </DIV> <DIV>I hope that relieves you a bit. Peace</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I hope I understand your post right Brutalhound, what I think you're saying is, that we should lean back and wait untill we're all 30+ to see what problems are with the class?</P> <P>That would be plain wrong, the early years/levels of a class are just as important as the late ones. Sure, some classes can get thru poorly designed lower levels because they know they will reap the rewards at say, lvl 40+, but that isn't really the case with EQ2. By level 30 approximately, you will have your entire arsenal and all you see from here on out are upgrade upon upgrade.</P> <P>And the bard arsenal is lacking in general, both in power, variety and level of detail. For now all we can do is speculate, but if our 30+ regens are as uneffective as our 14+ ones are, then the class overall is lacking. If a regen raises from 4 a tick at lvl 20 to 8 a tick at lvl 40, it will be just as uneffective as it has allways been.</P> <P>The best thing we can do for our class as a whole, is make a list of issues and suggestions on how to fix them, and hope that the list will give the developers ideas on how to take our class further in a positive direction. Keeping the list up-to-date and putting even the smallest of details in it, is the only way to show we care about our class. It is hugely important, that we voice our concerns, especially when we are a minority.</P>

[ke]

I think the biggest thing lacking is having a dev dedicated to each class that posts semi-regularly. We should have some open dialogue. I don't know if Sony doesn't trust their devs in this role or if they think that it would be too time-consuming. Whatever the reason, I hope we get a bard dev to talk with sometime. They don't have to devulge formulas and secrets. I used to play Gemstone3 (mud) and I remember we had a bard dev who would let us know what was being worked on and could discuss spells, balance, etc, etc.

[SongDi]

<DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>Just wanted to add my support for all the problems/fixes needed stated in the original post.  I agree these are important issues that need fixing.</FONT></DIV>

[Pretty_Snake_]

<DIV>My good friend, having recently realized that even the high level spells make a marginal impact on the group, deleted his troubador.  About the only spell that seemed to make any impact, or was in anyway unique, was the Proc.  Everything else that was good about the character was simply dependent on the base scout line of powers... escape, HO flipping, high flanking damage, and disarming traps.  Just about every concern and frustration mentioned by him was repeated by you in your post.  Topping the list I would say, would be the ineffectiveness of the charm spell, the lack of any actual musical feel, and the lack of any noticeable impact that any of the buffs actually made.  The class needs to be invigorated with a more magical/musical feel than it does right now.</DIV>

[Cha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TopBramen wrote: <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I almost completely forgot!  Why can we use our basic Sneak during combat, but not Walk Lightly?  Make all Bard Sneaks useable during combat, it's a real hinderince having to go through my spell book to hit our basic Sneak just to get off Luckblade or Ambush during an existing fight. </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by TopBramen on <SPAN class=date_text>11-25-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Look.... </P> <P>exit combat, stop hitting the target. remove sneak from your bar. use that little icon for "Attack". hit that to end combat, walk lightly, luckblade, spam a few various other attacks, repeat.</P> <P>This is a part of the combat process as a whole. </P> <P>For example</P> <P>an enchanter needs to end combat to mez a target. If not they hit may the target with their stupid staff and break mez.</P> <P>A fighter who is trying to taunt a mez'd target without hitting it and beaking the mez, needs to end combat, use taunt, switch back to original target, then engage back into combat. Thus preventing mez'd target from auto-aggroing onto enchanter when the mez breaks. (which we all know is MORE bad)</P> <P>These are aspects of combat which require skill and are at times challenging. When I'm in a well run group with my guildmates, we are a machine. Time flies, everyone does their job and we have fun.</P> <P>the reason you can sneak while in combat is because its a newbie attack, your new to the game and don't know how to play, as you progress in level you need to learn to adapt to group combat and play properly in order to fulfill your position as your class. (but to be honest, I personally don't recall being able to use sneak in combat)<BR></P> <DIV>There is a difference between making the game enjoyable and too easy. I'm sorry, but I disagree with your statement. Would it be gamebreaking to change it the other way? be allowed to use walk lightly in combat? perhaps not gamebreaking. Then again, would it kill you to hit the attack key, spend a whole second doing that? I think thats acceptable.</DIV>

[Shalwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Charb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Look.... </P> <P>exit combat, stop hitting the target. remove sneak from your bar. use that little icon for "Attack". hit that to end combat, walk lightly, luckblade, spam a few various other attacks, repeat.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This does not work.  After I have engaged in combat, even if I turn attack off, I still can't get into sneak mode using walk lightly.  The icon shows up, but I don't actually crouch down and turn invisible, nor can I use luckblade.</DIV>

[Xran]

Maybe we can post this in the Spells/Abilities forum?

[Cha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shalwin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Charb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Look.... </P> <P>exit combat, stop hitting the target. remove sneak from your bar. use that little icon for "Attack". hit that to end combat, walk lightly, luckblade, spam a few various other attacks, repeat.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This does not work.  After I have engaged in combat, even if I turn attack off, I still can't get into sneak mode using walk lightly.  The icon shows up, but I don't actually crouch down and turn invisible, nor can I use luckblade.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'm sorry, forgot to mention. </P> <P>Not every single mob will allow you yo do this. certain mobs break your sneak, or have see invisible which prevents you from re-sneaking during combat. I use this tactic all the time, I suggest you grab a buddy of yours to go tank some low level stuff in the commonlands and you try this out.</P>

[Seth]

<DIV>sorry for the cross posting but it seem some people dont read all thread</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Im troubadour 29 on french server (so sorry for my poor english)</DIV> <DIV>The regen mana is very usefull IN fight : the base regen is 9power /tick+the song regen its 7power/tick with just appII</DIV> <DIV>The add dps proces 1or more per mob at 100 degat so with 2 other melee its a free 300 degat per mob</DIV> <DIV>The buff stat i agree its not very noticable (i think we hit near for the max per swing and the MT parry/esquive a lot more)</DIV> <DIV>The 2 buff hast do not stack. The one at level28 is like the 14 but with a little buff agy but i have not mastery the skill atm.in 1 minute i swing 48 time with a 1,2 delay weapon. with the buff 64 time/ minute(adeptI skill).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But THE primary JOB of troubadour its a very powerfull anticasteur.A power full direct drain who drain 120 power and a power dot who dot 20 per tick.(we have 2 other spell who drain power but i havent notice realy how its work)</DIV> <DIV>I can make a level30++ mob oom in 10 sec and we have a buff who interrup casteur.The priest-like class Heal a lot less .</DIV> <DIV>But also our own dps its less than other dps class. I have 2 shout who did 150 dmg(APPII the 2)  a backstab who did 150 dmg (APPIII) when the priestlike debuff monster and the sneak attk who did between 100 and 300 dmg(Adpet I) I have another  adeptI style who did 120 dmg and debuff arcane. But  we are in front of fighter in terme of dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Yes if you calculate  with the regen song its near 2 heal and 1 blast per casteur / mn so with 6mn buff its a free 10 cast/casteur(at my level i think it ll be less efficient with gaining level)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with a friend guardian (level27) me and a friend cleric (levle29) today we have chain NON stop white/blue con++ monster.I think its impossible without a mage for oh regen power or barde song.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>After some test solo on Orc at ZEK who was level31 (im level30):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Without buff, just with regen hp song i finish the fight with 10% hp and 50% power (i had must spent all power in the dd who take lot of power for kill fast).</DIV> <DIV>-With rousing thune /hp regen/ aria of exitement/ the self buff stat who take one con (dont remember the name) i finish the fight with 80%-90% hp (less if im not lucky. in 30 fight i finish 25 with 80% and 5 with 50%+ hp)and 70% or 80% power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Rousing thune and the other STAT buff are very important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The regen song who heal just 16hp/tick (appII) its very usefull in solo(essential) and can be usefull in groupe with cleric if we fight white con casteur without delta (they do near 200degat/member the cleric with regen just focus on the MT for heal.)but with 2conc for use it,i prefere hast buff or skill buff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first issu ill enjoy its buff who are last longer and a buton on/off for all buff(for change fastly)</DIV> <DIV>AND the regen power less less less expensive in terme of power for cast it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Chantebrume.Troubadour on Storm(french server). Level30. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pandemonium.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sethis on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Sethis on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 AM</span>

[Xalter]

<DIV>I'll be 30 pretty soon m'self report then....spent time getting up weaponsmith, just to not sell a **ZOMG** thing because the drops own anything I can craft and because there's so many of them sell for almost nothing too...*grumbles* - maybe tier 4....yeah, yeah thats it....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with everything here - though I don't at all feel troub is useless. Maybe that's just me though...</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>Just updated the post. Added the Safe Fall being bugged as I promised a while ago...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing new other than that, which I've been able to find. If you spot problems please let me know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currenty looking into which spells/styles overwrite one anothers recast timer. I am pretty sure one or two of them overwrite the timers for eachother when they're not supposed to, like: You cast the one spell/style, and another spell/style greys out along with it and recharges on same timer as the one you just cast. This could be related to new versions being upgrades of old ones, but I need to look into it a little more, as some of them significantly change icon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also debating commercializing/reposting the original post in for example gameplay issues forum, because it seems like these subclass forums get no attention from red-cons (devs) of any kind. A shame really since there's alot of good posts in this forum...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, if you spot new issues not in the list, be sure to let me know (reply/PM).</DIV>

[Vermillio]

Bards, jack of all trades and master of none is no longer the right definition for our class. Take out the first part and let the latter stay - Master of None, that's more like it.The Charm song is a RIP OFF, period. 6 minutes re-cast time? At apprentice III the charm breaks after a little over 15 seconds and cannot be used to charm mobs that are 1 or more lvl higher than the caster, nor usable on mobs that have ANY kinds of arrow (single or double) even when the mob cons green. What's more, even if we WERE able to charm a mob, we cannot issue an attack command or else charm breaks...that's not really a charm song to us who are used to Original EQ.I could understand we have no Selo in EQ 2 for game balancing, but at least give us a little better ability to handle multiple mobs situation. If the developers think there's nothing wrong with Charm song breaking in 15 seconds, that's fine - but at least reduce the 6 minutes recasting time to like, 30 seconds? Or fix the song to match its spell description. (I.E. Charm a mob and issue attacking command without breaking the charm and the mob FOLLOWS your attack order). If the reason behind the charm song not able to issue attack commands to pet is about bards using charm song for risk-free solo experience, then let it be this way but change the charm song to a mez song with a reasonable recasting timer.

[Iasth]

<DIV>Some corrections about Bria's Entrancing Sonnet (charm).  I am currently level 30, and I decided to waste some money, so I bought Sonnet, Adept 1.  At this level I can charm level 37 ^ mobs.  I haven't tried any higher.  I can not charm any ^^ mobs that con higher than grey.  With Adept 1, the charm lasts about 30 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's still a horrible song.  The recast timer should be 30 seconds to a minute long.  Or last 3 minutes, and take up one concentration slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also Bria's Thrilling Ballad is a substantial improvement over Stirring Ballad.  I haven't found an adept for it yet, but even at App 2 it regens power pretty quickly.  I'm guessing the next one in line will be even faster, and will be amazingly fast at Adept 3 or Master level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, you can upgrade pathfinding, up to Master status.... it's a LOT faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as far as everything listed from the original poster.  I agree with every word and am signing my name.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Monomo]

<DIV>The worst thing so far I have seen with our class is the Songster's Luck Nerf of the last patch I have it with adept 1 and it buff my attack by FOUR points...this is not worth it even if it would'nt take 2 concentration slots...This must be a bug I cant believe this is working as intended. Please devs give us some info here</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>Just added the Songsters Luck nerf/bug to the list as the only update I really have at this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As stated before, if you discover issues/bugs that aren't already mentioned, please make me aware of them so I can add them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, since it appears that this place is deserted by the devs, or at least that they don't make us aware of their presence here, I've decided to re-post this issue in one of the more general forums, for example the Spells, Abilities and Combat Arts forum, in hopes that we might get some attention to the issues with our class (I will edit this post with the link to the re-post, will be doing it later today once they get to work "overthere").</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Topic reposted here: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=8443" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=8443</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by RagnarokDK on <span class=date_text>12-11-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 PM</span>

[Monomo]

<DIV>Good Idea Ramac!</DIV>

[wolfepak6]

<DIV>Not to throw gas on the fire, but if Tanks or healer classes had this many issues they would have been fixed by now or at least addressed.</DIV>

[Tyddu]

<DIV>I just made Troubadour last night. With all th issues I am reading on these posts. It looks like I'm parking it awhile until some bugs get fixed if ever. Otherwise I will delete it and make a Rogue/ Ranger.</DIV>

[Zostr]

Regarding Luck Blade, I use sneak, it doesn't fail like walk lightly, I turn attack off about half-way thru sneak, and unless the mob is aggro on me, it has never failed.

[LadyShylah]

Just wanted to add how great this thread is. I'll definitely keep my eye on this one and hopefully provide some helpful information in the future.Well done!

[Windain]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#3366ff>As a lvl 42 Troubador I'd like to give some imput on this list made:</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.3. Bards/Troubadors cannot group together.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This issues has been mentioned a few times by now, there are real big issues with Bards/Troubadors and their inability to group together. Our songs do not stack, our attacks with effect do not stack, and not only do they not stack, the bard with the lower skill/ability is pretty much limited to do unstyled attacking because of the "Would not take effect"-issues that is linked to us not being able to stack or overwrite eachothers effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Delete that, Bards stack great together.  Was in a group with 2 other bards (2 dirges) and have been in many other groups with troubadors.  There might be one attack you can't use but that is all.   The more bards the better (ok 4-5 might be pushing it).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.4. Songs/abilities have low effect.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This issues is becomming more and more discussed by Bards/Troubadors. A majority of our spells make very little difference, especially Bria's Stirring Ballad. Since no Bards/Troubadors are yet high enough to test the next level of, for example, mana regen (Bria's Thrilling Ballad - lvl 27), this issue is still somewhat insecure. Nevertheless, there seems to be little clarity amongst other players of just how big an impact a Bard/Troubador has on a group, either due to our effects not being powerfull enough, or them not being noticed. We have only 5 conc points, meaning we can run a maximum of 3-4 songs, these songs should be powerfull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I'm now on the third tier power regen song, let me tell you all of the songs I use make a huge impact on the group.   Although I must admit through the 20's troubadors aren't exactly shining.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>1.7. Unique spell, not unique at all.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>This has also been mentioned by others, and bards really got the short end of the stick when it came to individual ability. Single target /dance with minimal effect, no song or sound of any kind, I feel cheated. Once again, a good example of something that makes the bard classes feel rushed. At least make it a group spell and add some sound, or change it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Nothing like a good way to bother someone like making them dance.  I actually like this ability and it was meant to be fun and not amazing.  Look at what other classes get (ignore crusaders) and you will see they are mostly similar.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0033>3.2. Hallmark Reward.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>I can only speak for the Qeynos side, as that is the one I am from. And this issue has already been mentioned quite a few times: Why is our class weapon at level 20 a 1handed and not a DW? No Bard/Troubador that I've ever met, has gone 1h and shield in battle. We are not tanks, we are a DPS class. We DW by nature. Why ruin a perfectly good weapon, especially a hallmark one? All it is good for in it's current state, is 50ish silver on the market. Look in </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=30" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffffff>this thread</FONT></A><FONT color=#ffffff> for more info. This weapon should be DW.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc>You will upgrade your weapons approximately every 3 lvls.  1hs + shield is good for soloing and tanking (if necessary).  All bards should have 2 duel wield, 1 1h, and 1 shield for all senarios.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00><STRONG><U>WHAT NEEDS ADDED:</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Ok, by now I have noticed quite a few bugs with our songs and heard people complain about some others.  About every other song is bugged or broken.  Unfortunately, I can only think of a few examples off the top of my head.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0033>Haste song line</FONT> </STRONG>- Says it adds agility, but doesn't</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00><STRONG><FONT color=#cc3333><FONT color=#cc0033>Lore's Snapping Sonnet</FONT> </FONT></STRONG>(and all the ones in that line) - drains your power, and in the ones further down the line, does not give proper stats or do what it says it does.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0033>Attribute Buff line</FONT> </STRONG>- The last of the series (Vivacious) only adds str/agi/sta like the rest but claims to raise all stats.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody><FONT color=#cc0033><STRONG>Elises Ditty line </STRONG><FONT color=#66ff33><STRONG>- </STRONG>Actually drains your power when the stifling proc goes off, this gets very annoying when your power is constantly going down and you are not doing anything but straight melee.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody><FONT color=#66ff33><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0033>Swindle Essence</FONT></STRONG> - Not sure if this is a bug, but the amount recieved back from the power drain = power cost.. would be nice to get a little +power on top of that.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody><FONT color=#66ff33></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00> I know there are a few abilities that are supposed to drain power but dont.. can't remember the names though :</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>When I get on tomorrow I can post a few more.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[MiscreantPy]

<DIV>Troubador and Dirge songs only stack in the way they are variated, and even then the benefits are so negligible the party would be better served with another class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway even with the differences, the Dirge class is nowhere near as useful as a Troubador. With all the time I spent on my Dirge finding out that in end game we are useless compared to Troubadors, makes me almost regret playing my Dirge to level 43. My only hope is they toss us a Dirges a bone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So don't complain to much Troubadors, just remember you got it better than us Dirges.</DIV>

[Ragnarok]

<DIV>If anyone wants to copy the content of the original post and continue providing the devs feedback and suggestions, feel free to go ahead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The lack of interest show from the devs to topics like these, kills my interest in keeping the thread updated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Troubador is currently 45, and I still feel he is rushed. So far the only attention our class has seen has been tru nerfs, and I see nothing comming in the future that is going to change that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RagnarokDK on <span class=date_text>01-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[Belisarius]

<DIV>I hate to dig up past stuff but some of these issues still need to be addressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We might think about adding to this list again to bring more attention to our community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/bump</DIV><p>Message Edited by Belisarius on <span class=date_text>02-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 PM</span>

[KineticMu]

<DIV>Aye some Dirge was posting in our forum saying that they started an Issue Thread that actually got some feedback <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm going to try to make a list over time, that means I'll have to dust off the old Troub. I only made it to 30 or so.</DIV>

[Xanus]

Nice thread but a little outdated there. Many of those issues have been adressed already. This thread really needs to point out specific abilities/arts that are problematic and why. It's very generalized at the moment and does not touch on specific abilities like it should. Yes, I've seen this thread before.For example, I see no mention whatsoever of specific abilities. Let me give you an illustration of the type of write up you need to do. I'll use your health regen line as example of how you need to approach this. And by the way you should run down the list of all your abilities post 20 and do the same.Example:Quiron's Joyous Celebration and it's upgrades - This is the song line that increases the health regeneration of the party. I'm a lvl 50 troubador. I have the very last upgrade to this line and it is adept1. Currently it is only ticking for 30 health per tic at lvl 50. Now I know you may think that's great because you need to consider that it is helping everyone in the party so in effect it's regening in a full group of 6 at basically 180/health tic. That would be great if you could look at the skill like that but frankly in most groups only one person is taking damage and that is the main tank. So, the 30 health it is supposed to be giving to everyone is actually being wasted to the point of only helping one person get 30 health/tic. Do you really think 30 health/tic is going to help that tank at all when most mobs 30+(which is when you get the song) are hitting in the area of 1k+ damage a pop? No, 30health/tic is weak. I don't even find this song useful for downtime since as soon as combat ends health regeneration rates soar sky high. Heck, a healer could cast his group heal and regen the mana back in the time it wouls take for this song to bring everyone back to full health at the end of a tough battle due to its low return. If that weren't enough the song costs me 2 precious concentration slots for a VERY insignificant return. Solution: Put the song on a longer recast timer of maybe 10-30 minutes and instead have the song regen everyone in the group for a period of about 30 seconds at 200 or so health/tic. Then, I might actually get some use out of the song. I see no problems in a fix like this as it would not replace the healers role but rather be an emergency type bard song that could only be used sparingly to help in a tight situation. At least then I might get use out of this song.Try approaching all of your abilties in this manner and you may be able to get a response like the dirges did. When appropraite you should thank the devs for the abilities you have that do work and that you do find useful . I know you at least have a few of them that aren't broken and do help considerably.

[Caa]

<DIV>I don't mind picking it up, it is sort of along the lines of own thread posted here. I'll pick through it today and repost an updated version.</DIV>