Amazing Reflexes - the nerf is in...

[sobek_eq2]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the test server update notes from November 2nd,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brigand: Deceit: Fixed DPS increase to Haste increase as mentioned in the examine text. <BR>- Brigand: Amazing Reflexes: Changed ability so that AOE avoidance is a short duration percentage trigger from combat arts.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has chosen the worst possible solution for reducing the power of AR. There are so many things they could have done to change it from a 'get of jail free' card to 'very useful', instead they choose almost useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by sobek_eq2 on <span class=date_text>11-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:22 PM</span>

[Deeds]

<DIV>Nice, we just took it up the [Removed for Content] on that one, thanks SOE, woot!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, does it still have a agro increase associated with it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it does, then it is 100% useless, as oppsed to 99% useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rommie10-284]

The aggro increase is gone - it's just a percentage change to fire off of your combat arts.After testing tonight, it's firing in the 10-15 percent range.  I'd give you exact numbers, but it doesn't show in the chat text.But it shows consistently in trash mob fights.The question is *when* however.  AR is now a lottery - you'd hope to get it up for timed AE's, or run.  If you are against oranges, AR will be scarcer.  A random AE monster will be pure luck to dodge.  It'll take longer to get AR up, on average,than the 15 second duration, so you'll have the inital gap, plus others during a long fight.  (I'm sure Beta folks have timed raids when they can talk)It's a nerf - only have the shield up some of the time, randomly determined.  And you have to use your CA's - if there were reasons not to use them before.  If you are out of power, you are out of luck for AR.  Whee.<div></div>

[DaLurk]

*sigh*Ok, now, I'm fed up.<div></div>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

If it won't reliably dodge AEs what the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is the point in having it? I will still need resist gear on so AR isn't saving me on that. If it was so awesome as a proc wouldn't people be using the queynos cutlass? Nope, because AE IMMUNITY AS AN UNRELIABLE PROC IS TOTALLY USELESS DEVS. Make it a short term buff, better yet remove it and give me somthing useful because I sure as hell am not going to be relying on it. They managed to take this skill and move it from the best ancient teaching skill in the game to the worst in the game, good job devs.<p>Message Edited by The-Fourm-Pirate on <span class=date_text>11-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 PM</span>

[AratornCalahn]

if htey need to change it, there are plenty of ideas RIGHT HERE on this forum that are good and satisfy the conditions of reliability and requireing brigands to get resist gear (I assume thats the intent). But no, they change it to a worthless proc ?? /boggle <div></div>

[InquisitorR]

I have not talked alot about AR, complained, or yelled at the idea of a nerf because everyone gets nerfs; in the hopes that the Dev's would not COMPLETELY [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it up.  Make it a temp buff like Bards AA ability with a faster recast, make it a % damage reduction to AE's, make it ANYTHING BUT A PROC!  Its unreliable, we cant time it, thus making it worthless.  We are back to Tier5 status, yeehaw, might as well just take it away all together and give us another attack./sigh, cmon Devs...get clever, get a clue, dont [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] us.<div></div>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Welcome to t3 / t4 dps</P> <P>our sole purpose on raids now will be dispatch bots - we lose the skill that allows to achieve t2 dps.</P> <P>Now IF amazing reflexes had to be removed which it effectively is, as it wont even warrant being on our spell bars as it stands, how can they not adjust the rest of our spells for a dps increase?</P> <P>I mean surely there should be give and take....you take our best skill and replace with nothing</P> <P>Jeez 13 days to build up on resist gear i guess....shame i passed on it all before so my guildies could get geared</P> <P>Sony suck....</P> <P>All because some [Removed for Content] guilds used 4+ brigands to kill the Matron , cheers for that and ruining my class</P> <P>(a) reroll</P> <P>(b) stick it out playing a crap nerfed dps debuff bot</P> <P>(c) quit </P> <P>time to make my mind up i think</P> <P>was sooooo looking forward to EOF now i dont even care</P> <P>Peace</P>

[lungbutter]

<DIV>So then ....whats the point? i play a brigand and raid about 5 days a week been gearing up for a while now never went anything resist specific wise as i HAD AR and passed on all the resist gear. Sony can you please provide me a contact who i can talk to about reimbursing me for wasting my time for the last 2 years? ill be lucky to ever raid again. Oh thats right you dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about the customers, sorry i almost forgot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skina</DIV> <DIV>Allure </DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Skina same here bro</P> <P>I never actually thought Sony would treat Brigs this bad but then again we are a low population class , so basically its easier for them to force us out of existence</P>

[exacutionarhead]

<P>This Flares up my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you know. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. we cant compeat with other classes dps peroid. but to be able to stay in and do a couple other to try to keep our dps up someware were we can compeat with the other classes. and now now we are just a class that is basicly pointless on raids cept for jousting in and out and maybe getting off one or two mit debuffs before haven to run your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out. thats bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in its self. if we have to joust then give us more abilities like our non aoe risesnt brotherens the swashbuckler. there dps isnt that bad better then ours. and they arnt resistnent to aoes. this is a total slap in the face as a brigand. well now that i have posted how i felt good games all..</P> <P> </P> <P>Airies</P>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>and swashies apparently get an AA line for group aoe immune on a 5 min recast lol lol lol</P> <P>i would never wish ill will on our brethren class, as i dont call for anything like that</P> <P>but jeez, sony truely have no idea at all </P>

[Vampyr]

People that say this nerf won't lower our dps a lot is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Up until EoF we could focus on using gear that provided bonuses to our overall dps but soon we will have to drop damage proc gear and such for resist gear unless you are "playing it safe" by ranged autoattacking and waiting for AE to hit then rush in to dispatch+devitalize+rake and then run out again. I'll try it this way: Put on resist gear which will lower my overall dps by around 3-10% and spam CAs constantly and hope AR will trigger before the next AE. I can see it now, I'll die so many times the first time we do Chel'Drak after EoF... BAM!!! 25k poison/disease damage because AR didn't proc at the right moment. <div></div>

[exacutionarhead]

In my opion sony just brought the brigands back to were they were in the first place. i can just about garentee there are ganna be a mass of brigands swaping over to be swashbucklers. and can you really blame hten. then you got less brigands on the servers. but then again. that was the problem in the first place why they started to make the brigand class a little bit more unquie and trying to drag more people over to the dark side if you would. so. this being said why change something that had a good thing. granted i could of dealt with haven ar with a more of a hate ratio on it. and still have it the way it is then compleatly have it as a proc. procs suck in my opion. the only time a proc is good thing is if it is a dps buff dmg or anything like that cuse they dont come up and say you have just smacked so and so with you proced ability you have to really watch for that stuff and thats not a good thing were you can get hit by a big aoe not cool at all. But as i said i can forsee a lot of brigands swaping over to be a swashbuckler eyes closed so to speak

[ThunderFunky]

<DIV>People who say that this wont lower our dps have nfc about the class whatsoever, or the skills needed to be an effective brigand. They assume that we melee the mob , dispatch and afk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not like that thankfully</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said before we will be t3-t4 dps now - they have killed the class in one swoop</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they have done it with other classes which we all know about and now with us</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SinIsLaw]

Yeah, have to aggree that making it as a proc of an CA is bad!! if ur on the mob and use ur CA's it may proc to early and it's duration may run off just before the AE hit - So it is not really reliable at all anymore /sight gamble with the fire.Also if one would choose to stay outta AE range until AR procs and then rush in ... well GL on that, since we only have one ranged CA and its on a extreme long timer - way to go to have it proc! So it is pretty much doge AE like everyone else, and stay at home on pure range fights (like Talendor)Thanks all whiners for whining !!! Guess now when i sit out at raids, I can start spamming the bords asking for other classes to be nerfed as they'll have an egde on something in the game ... /sarcasm off   <div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

Ahh well my dps is going to suck that bad so ill just sit out of AE's in the first place and just use my bow that will probably give me more dps than having to joust anyways :smileyvery-happy:

[Vampyr]

The Deceitfulness change sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] too. Everyone knows dps modifiers are way better than haste modifiers. Now all we got is ruthless cunning which doesn't even exist as master 1. I liked doing 1500+ dps on pain/suffering in HoS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Thepiper]

Well we still have a few days to collect Spongy's and swashy masters i know i have been since i heard of AR getting nerfed aswell as everything else in the class.  There's no way im gonna play a brig just to Debuff and have no chance of hitting the parser [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] THAT  im betraying to a Swashy as soon as i find out for Fact, Or i may just quit, im a bit sick of all the nerfing the GAME SUCKS ATM anyway no content and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] all to do past lvl 70 apart from raiding the same old zones. 

[Deeds]

<P>Why was Decitfulness even changed? uh, sorry I mean why was it "fixed"?  Did I miss something or someone complaining about this skill? </P> <P>And SOE, how about un-nerfing some of our skills that were nerfed in the previous patches.  Throw us a freakin bone here.</P><p>Message Edited by Deedbit on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 AM</span>

[Goonch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vampyrus wrote:<BR>People that say this nerf won't lower our dps a lot is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Up until EoF we could focus on using gear that provided bonuses to our overall dps but soon we will have to drop damage proc gear and such for resist gear unless you are "playing it safe" by ranged autoattacking and waiting for AE to hit then rush in to dispatch+devitalize+rake and then run out again. I'll try it this way: Put on resist gear which will lower my overall dps by around 3-10% and spam CAs constantly and hope AR will trigger before the next AE. <BR><BR>I can see it now, I'll die so many times the first time we do Chel'Drak after EoF... BAM!!! 25k poison/disease damage because AR didn't proc at the right moment.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I've never made a personal attack on these boards but this post made me come real close.  How long have you played a brigand?  Did you even raid T5?  There are 2 fights our dps will drop a bit on that are in game currently.  Chel'drak and Matron.  Our dps will be the same or close on all other current content.  I can't speak for the new content obv.  Do you see swashies getting one-shotted by chel'drak... mmmm no.... because all you need to do is to get 14+ meters behind him.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And saying that dps mods are more important than haste mods just shows how much you know your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The good brigands will survive.  Go buy resist gear while its cheap.  I am by no means pleased by this change but something needed to happen, I just don't think it needed to be this extreme.  My beef from the get go has been that this is an ancient spell and should be "useful", and in my opinion the ability needs to be reliable, ie a short term buff, and not a % proc.  As a % proc it is useless to me and I won't rely on it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any of you brigands on test want to verify the hate gain aspect of this spell and whether it still exists?   </DIV>

[Goonch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <DIV>People who say that this wont lower our dps have nfc about the class whatsoever, or the skills needed to be an effective brigand. They assume that we melee the mob , dispatch and afk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not like that thankfully</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said before we will be t3-t4 dps now - they have killed the class in one swoop</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they have done it with other classes which we all know about and now with us</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're clueless.</DIV>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Goonch thanks for the personal insult - always much appreciated from a fellow player and Brigand</P> <P>For your information - i have played a brigand , raid wise since t5 - t6 - t7, i have been in guilds which have killed every contested from t5-t7 with most recently the Matron. So i think i can fcuking say that i know my class thank you very much </P> <P>You can say whatever you like it doesnt change my mind or opinion that this was a totally unneccesary and BS change.</P> <P>"Go buy resist gear while its cheap" - why should i ? - AR is not overpowered its our key ability.</P> <P>The change was unnecessary </P> <P>We were fine as a t2 dps / debuff class</P> <P>If you dont think our dps will be decreased at all , you are truely a joke .</P> <P>Also to add, there is no doubt in my mind that the main reason behind this change is there will be a return of some kind of wof aoe's on the majority of mobs in the expansion, thus they dont wanna have easy mode guilds trivialising this content rolling mobs over with 5 brigands in the raid</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ThunderFunky on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:01 AM</span>

[FuzzBall]

Its a useless art now.. It couldve been worse.... Procs 1% of the time from CAs when* In group with SK    - Where Death march is running* In group with anotehr Brig    - Thats in as much pain as you* In group with Ranger    - Thats laughing his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off that SoE took his advice and nered your sorry [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].Personally, I saw it coming so Im glad I managed to rub in the Vasaline before SoE f****** me dry.<div></div>

[exacutionarhead]

<P>Ok im lacking some information i hear fromo this post that the swashys get a group aoe resisent buff and what not i guess. my question would be what does the brigand aa lines look like maybe there is something hidden in htem that will a:help our dps b: help with ranged attacks or c: all the above? just trying to get some insight into why they made this besides the posiblitly of lacking aoe mobs. </P> <P>airies</P>

[FuzzBall]

<div><blockquote><hr>ThunderFunky wrote:<div></div> <p>Welcome to t3 / t4 dps</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Im there at the moment with my Warden</font></p> <p>our sole purpose on raids now will be dispatch bots - we lose the skill that allows to achieve t2 dps.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Yup, nerfed batted DPS.... again</font></p> <p>Now IF amazing reflexes had to be removed which it effectively is, as it wont even warrant being on our spell bars as it stands, how can they not adjust the rest of our spells for a dps increase?</p><p><font color="#ff6600">No, far hard to do, that would require actual thought by Lockeye</font></p> <p>I mean surely there should be give and take....you take our best skill and replace with nothing</p><p><font color="#ff6600">SoE have shown theyre like a federal government, take what they want and couldbe care less about you</font></p> <p>Jeez 13 days to build up on resist gear i guess....shame i passed on it all before so my guildies could get geared</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Arent you happy that they gave you 13 days notice??</font></p> <p>Sony suck....</p><p><font color="#ff6600">/nod</font></p> <p>All because some [Removed for Content] guilds used 4+ brigands to kill the Matron , cheers for that and ruining my class</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Nice of SoE to take a single instance as proof that an entire class should be take from behind, both hands on sholders </font></p> <p>(a) reroll</p> <p>(b) stick it out playing a crap nerfed dps debuff bot</p> <p>(c) quit </p> <p>time to make my mind up i think</p> <p>was sooooo looking forward to EOF now i dont even care</p><p><font color="#ff6600">But I bet you preordered, so SoE have your cash, why the f*** should they care now?</font></p></blockquote></div>

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <P>If you dont think our dps will be decreased at all , you are truely a joke .</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Other than Matron or chel'drak fights where we will have to joust, tell me how?  </P> <P>And I'm not trying to change anyones opinion, I'm just saying the sky isn't falling.  And believe me if I wanted to insult you I'd do a lot better than calling you clueless.  </P> <P>/edit:  AR our key ability??  Please.. Dispatch and Devitalize and Rake define us.  Not the ability to joust an AE.</P><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>NDA is still active so cant say anything mch</P> <P>apart from the answer about some help in our AA line is - No</P>

[ThunderFunky]

<DIV>Like i said at the bottom of my previous posting Gonch, the only reason for this change can be massive changes in AOEs come EOF else there would be no reason to screw brigands.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i have next to no resist gear as i always pass on that gear for my guildies to have and equip their toons / resist gear</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AR is our key ability in my mind, without it it will make debuffs harder to land</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you really telling me u think we can get close to swashie dps with jousting given their burst dps let alone other classes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i take insults on the chin and ignore them so no big deal there</DIV>

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <P>NDA is still active so cant say anything mch</P> <P>apart from the answer about some help in our AA line is - No</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I said in my first post not directed to you that I was speaking from a current content standpoint.   And in regards to new content (even thogh I have no clue of what it is) unless there is a headhunting brig mob in every encounter, than the only mobs that we will have to joust is named mobs with one shotting capable AEs or mobs capable of perma stunning or stifiling if you are up close.  Everything else will be able to be healed through.  </P> <P>Our DPS will probably be lower those fights, not denying it, but the other 95% of the content if our dps is lower than all melees dps will be lower on a particular encounter.</P>

[exacutionarhead]

<P>I think i would have to agree with goonch on that though. needless to say the non named mobs dont hit too hard with aoes if they have any. i think the only time i got powned with out my amzing reflexes up was on the first named in hos. and as for jousting its not hard had to do it with my conjurer all the time till i found that "sweet" spot were i could stand with out getting hit and what not. but i guess time will be the only thing to tell when we get goign i think we have maybe anoughter week or 2 before launch i think if my figures are right and if what im told is correct.</P> <P> </P> <P>airies</P>

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <DIV>Like i said at the bottom of my previous posting Gonch, the only reason for this change can be massive changes in AOEs come EOF else there would be no reason to screw brigands.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff33>I agree.  They must be changing alot when it comes to AEs in beta/test/EOF for this change to occur.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i have next to no resist gear as i always pass on that gear for my guildies to have and equip their toons / resist gear</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm in the same boat as you it sucks.  Not to mention I've sold 75% of my clamore rewards.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AR is our key ability in my mind, without it it will make debuffs harder to land</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I disagree, but /shrug.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you really telling me u think we can get close to swashie dps with jousting given their burst dps let alone other classes</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I think most of swashies burst dps comes in group encounters because of hurricane, other wise the amount of burst is pretty similar on single target.  I think mobs in EOF that have huge AEs like Chel'drak and Matron I won't be doing 1kish dps anymore for sure.   But I do think that regardless on those mobs that the swashies will do <EM>that much more</EM> damage.  It will depend on the encounter and group make up.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i take insults on the chin and ignore them so no big deal there</DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Ok.</FONT></STRONG><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[exacutionarhead]

Well depending on the mob i use to be able to pass the swashy on the parser. but that was on like single mobs and i was pushing hard on it cuse i knew i could do it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but yea hurican helps the swash out on the group mobs hardcore.

[Goonch]

<P>Yes Im bored at work today hence the 100 replies so far.</P> <P>I parse more than swashies never/rarely on group mobs and some/most of the time on single target if we have the same group make up.  That plays a big part.</P><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Goonch]

<P>grrrr double post.  sorry.</P><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[exacutionarhead]

Yea its all on the group make up i know when i have about 60haste and dps i threw a lot of dps out but once i loose one or both of those abilities my cass go down the craper. i dont have any gear thats really great great only two pieces of relics hat and boots and i was parsing about 5th on most of the mobs in labs i think if i can rember correctly.

[Vampyr]

I was just venting and maybe this was a bad place to do it. This change should have happend BEFORE Kingdom of Sky came out IMO. AR was/is broken for an entire expansion they changed it a few times during DoF but they let it be broken for KoS. Lost reflexes did nothing at all. Then came Fallen Dynasty where they designed two encounters that a lot of people said you need at least one brigand to beat. Of course that's not true it just helps a lot to have a brig with you on those two fights. I still think they should have left deceitfulness alone though, it was fine the way it was. And no, I won't betray to a swashbuckler. <div></div>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Yeah its about group make ups i know</P> <P>But if you put a swash & brigand in the same group, with similar buffage... a "skilled" swashie should currently beat a brigand, on a non joust encounter obviously</P> <P>Now , given the AR savageing, on lets say matron type encounter, the swashie should easily pawn a brigand on dps and by some large margin</P> <P>I think this is where my pain is coming from...</P>

[exacutionarhead]

Well the way ive always looked at my lacking dps thunder is this. we might be lacking in dps. but think of how much more dps we are given the other dpsers then if we werent there. so really if you add how much more dmg your other people in the raid or group are doing then add to yours that basicly how much dps you are doing. just cuse you are maken others hit harder and often then they would of if you werent there. a friend told me this and it made it seem about right.

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Yes thats always been the case, we add tons to raid dps</P> <P>however</P> <P>i actually like parsing 1000-1300 dps, i dont wanna be a pure debuffer with a joke of a dps</P> <P>SOOOOOOOO wish they would let us change our claymore rewards....suddenly that garbage DW is now looking amazingly attractive</P>

[exacutionarhead]

Yea i will agree with you the 1k dps is nice to have. i know sometimes i wish i could be more then just a debuffer as well but if i want that all i have to do is betrayl and i can be a more of a dps i know of a swash that normaly can stay on the top of the parser. but the way i look it at is he wouldnt be there if there wasnt a brig or something there to help along the way so to speak. he might be up there with out a brig but it would be easier with us brigands. but yea i have though of doing it but then again i never really betryaled just cuse i dont think i could do that to this toon

[Bhronn]

Im going to try and not fan the fire. But I am also going to give most of you a heads up. I am in Fires of Heaven and have done every raid encounter in eof currently. I am not at liberty to discuss those encounters nor even named them. But I will tell you my dps has dropped 400 points on avg and until healers begin to heal a brig you can expect to die.. alot which also nulls the debuffs and even more nulls the dps. Im not going to say the world is falling because brigs will still play but instead of griping here you need to be out getting your brig prepared for it. there are some bright hope because myself and other guild brigs have sent some suggestions in that might get implemented but you still need to get prepared. The game just changed and you will need to play your class, I wont say completely different, but different from how you play now. yes I am being cryptic for obvious reasons and still be able to tell you to get your brig prepared. You got little over a week.Innocent FoH<div></div>

[exacutionarhead]

<DIV>Looks like i have to start to buy crap resist gear to start to get them prepaired i guess that way i dont take too much dmg from stupid mobs. o well i guess. atelast i can start to get it going i guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>airies</DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhronn wrote:<BR>Im going to try and not fan the fire. But I am also going to give most of you a heads up. I am in Fires of Heaven and have done every raid encounter in eof currently. I am not at liberty to discuss those encounters nor even named them. But I will tell you my dps has dropped 400 points on avg and until healers begin to heal a brig you can expect to die.. alot which also nulls the debuffs and even more nulls the dps. Im not going to say the world is falling because brigs will still play but instead of griping here you need to be out getting your brig prepared for it. there are some bright hope because myself and other guild brigs have sent some suggestions in that might get implemented but you still need to get prepared. The game just changed and you will need to play your class, I wont say completely different, but different from how you play now. yes I am being cryptic for obvious reasons and still be able to tell you to get your brig prepared. You got little over a week.<BR><BR>Innocent <BR>FoH<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yup and its not live YET brusiers had a few last minute changes made just before KoS hit so nothing is set in stone until its live ....... soe do read our posts and ideas even if you think they dont :smileywink:

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goonch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vampyrus wrote:<BR>People that say this nerf won't lower our dps a lot is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Up until EoF we could focus on using gear that provided bonuses to our overall dps but soon we will have to drop damage proc gear and such for resist gear unless you are "playing it safe" by ranged autoattacking and waiting for AE to hit then rush in to dispatch+devitalize+rake and then run out again. I'll try it this way: Put on resist gear which will lower my overall dps by around 3-10% and spam CAs constantly and hope AR will trigger before the next AE. <BR><BR>I can see it now, I'll die so many times the first time we do Chel'Drak after EoF... BAM!!! 25k poison/disease damage because AR didn't proc at the right moment.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I've never made a personal attack on these boards but this post made me come real close.  How long have you played a brigand?  Did you even raid T5?  There are 2 fights our dps will drop a bit on that are in game currently.  Chel'drak and Matron.  Our dps will be the same or close on all other current content.  I can't speak for the new content obv.  Do you see swashies getting one-shotted by chel'drak... mmmm no.... because all you need to do is to get 14+ meters behind him.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And saying that dps mods are more important than haste mods just shows how much you know your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The good brigands will survive.  Go buy resist gear while its cheap.  I am by no means pleased by this change but something needed to happen, I just don't think it needed to be this extreme.  My beef from the get go has been that this is an ancient spell and should be "useful", and in my opinion the ability needs to be reliable, ie a short term buff, and not a % proc.  As a % proc it is useless to me and I won't rely on it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any of you brigands on test want to verify the hate gain aspect of this spell and whether it still exists?   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is my problem, SOE lacks any sense of proportion. AR needed to be changed - it didn't need to be rendered useless, and the non-deterministic behavior of the proc makes it useless.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I'm betting there will be lots of aoes like matron and chel'drak in the expansion.  Otherwise why nurf AR.  </P> <P>A 400 dps decrease is a big hit.  That blows.  I think I parse high for a brigand atm but still, 400 dps is a huge blow.  Massive.  Autoattack is such a large amount of our damage I just can't believe we'd drop that much.  That's really sad.  I'm stunned atm so don't know what to say, but that's such a large hit we almost seem useless.</P>

[Rommie10-284]

Just to answer a question buried in here - the hate part of AR is gone, it's just the lottery chance.It looks like I'm going to get to raid on Test tonight, so I'll get to see the new AR in action.I'll report my results when it's over on the board (assuming Test doesn't crash/update/behave badly)<div></div>

[Myrcul]

<DIV>Thanks Sony, you rock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kegofbud]

<P> I agree with Goonch on pretty much all his points. He's right, there aren't a lot of encounters that it's going to really kill us on. The only other one off the top of my head that he didn't mention was Talendor. Here's my problem with the change:</P> <P> It really is useless as a proc. Give me control of it  every couple minutes, I could deal with that better. I can't believe they are giving a better, group version to swashes while they give us a proc. It kind of pisses me off. Why have a 2nd brigand on a raid now if the DPS does in fact drop? Some other class abilities will be more useful for their utility then on dispatch every minute. Our main debuffs stay up a while with the exception of dispatch. The key to ARs usefulness was the being able to attack the whole time, while applying debuffs. We'll still be able to dodge and apply debuffs, but the damage on jousting certain encounters will drop. So, since I've taken this worthless Kilij as my claymore reward, bet i can't switch to the DW model to use on special encounters...thanks for that! It's the gear I've sold or passed up, that now I can't get back, that really frosts me.</P> <P>On the change of Deceit, I kind of like it. The haste gives me more swings for procs. DPS buff doesn't give you that. </P>

[Goonch]

<P>Don't worry Choad theres no way to tell when the DW procs so it doesn't matter.</P> <P>And thanks, Innocent, for your post, any resist gear in particular we should 'prepare for'?  :smileyvery-happy:  But in all serious I'm going to bud up with some Swashy guildies because I am clueless what to buy in terms of resist gear.  Never even had to think about it, heh.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[Diapause]

<P>The short-sided view from all the nerf-bat lovers is that Brigand help raised the overall raid DPS by us being constantly under the AE umbrella applying our debuffs. </P> <P>So all the wizzies hitting 25k Fusion and 16k Ice Novas, there was a reason u were doing that. All the Summoner with scout pets hitting 2k DPS on the parse, guess where a good chunk of that came from?</P> <P>More raid DPS = Faster Raid mob dies = Less AE's = Less overall healing = better chance for PHAT LEWTZ!</P> <P>Short-sided indeed...</P>

[XhaleSlow]

<DIV>This nerf does it for me, as a 70 Brig with 50 AA's....i have no compunction of leveling another character to 70 so that SoE can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it all over again when i get there, this nerf goes live, i find another game. SoE will NOT get another [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing DIME from me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dreamtrap</DIV> <DIV>70 [Removed for Content] off Brig Nektulos server</DIV>

[Kegofbud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <P>The short-sided view from all the nerf-bat lovers is that Brigand help raised the overall raid DPS by us being constantly under the AE umbrella applying our debuffs. </P> <P>So all the wizzies hitting 25k Fusion and 16k Ice Novas, there was a reason u were doing that. All the Summoner with scout pets hitting 2k DPS on the parse, guess where a good chunk of that came from?</P> <P>More raid DPS = Faster Raid mob dies = Less AE's = Less overall healing = better chance for PHAT LEWTZ!</P> <P>Short-sided indeed...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The term you're looking for is "short sighted". Short-sided is when one team plays with less players then the other...a handicap if you will.</P> <P>You're over-reacting. The reason they are doing that damage WILL STILL BE THERE. How many AEs last full time? They happen, you joust and run back in, on maybe 3 encounters. Most encoutners you can eat the AE with resist gear. Devitilize and Rake have 72 second timers with a lower recast. I've yet to see an AE that lasted 12 seconds where I couldn't reapply it before it dropped because of a joust. All 3 of our mitagation debuffs are on half second casting times. So, in under 2 seconds you can drop all 3 of those in one trip in easily. Tell me how that hurts any one else's raid DPS? </P> <P>Sure, our DPS will drop on some encounters. Sure, AR is completely useless now. I'm not happy about that either. I hate the changes. I want it replaced with a useful skill or AR to be a skill I can trigger when I want. Maybe even a boost in damage would be nice. Just don't argue and supply a stupid point about everyone's else's DPS that just isn't true. The only way everyone else's DPS in the raid drops, because of this change, is because the brigand at the controls isn't doing his/her job properly.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Bhronn]

<div></div>i was trying not to reply but some responses from  people who think it still will be easy to drop our debuffs and joust or eat AE's are going to be the same ones who come here in a month and speak differently. Not to jerk my own chain but , myself and my guild brigs are probably the most informed brigs on the changes coming in this whole game. And im telling you that as it stands, I would from this point, turn off AR on live and start getting your healers looking at your name on thier raid screens. That also applies to your cures too.Edit: but again its just a suggestion.innocentFoH<div></div><p>Message Edited by Bhronn on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 PM</span>

[NemaLVey]

<P><FONT color=#cc99cc>DPS > Haste.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>There are many haste items, but 1 DPS item.  So technically haste is pretty easy to get capped first.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>DPS is consistent damage addition to <U>auto-attack and CA damage</U>, regardless of weapon type and delay used.  Besides, we have 2 separate, timed, DPS boost abilities.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>Haste makes you hit more often with <U>auto attack only</U>, but does not guarantee you will miss less ( hit/miss ratio remains the same).  Also depending on the type of weapon you use, will yield great or not so great effects.  If your tanking, you will get riposted more often too ( some Dev said something to that effect ).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>I like consistency personally, and knowing it has a greater effect on everything that does damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>And for those that don't think your DPS isn't going to suffer horrendously...ponder upon this.  We had AR, so we needed no resists, so we maxed out Str, to max out DPS, and fought the mobs from beginning to end, while still being out parsed by Assassins, wizards, conjur, necro and warlocks.  We are T2 dps and T1 spike damage.  Now you will lose your Str, to have resist gear, which lowers your damage, in a world where your no longer capped, and now under par from the word " LOADING".  Our DPS tier will be 3 with spikes of 2... maybe.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>"Way I see it, we're all on the Hindenburg, no use fighting over the window seat" </FONT><FONT color=#cc99cc>( Richard Jenni )</FONT>   </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>EDIT: Forgot to check spelling :smileysad:</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:44 PM</span>

[Mayhem2k]

<DIV>Double whammy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haste on that buff is useless...MOD is way better..should stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Proc on AR and no DPS increase so we can do Troub/Dirge dps..or even less..priceless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm so looking forward to this expansion..not.</DIV>

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mayhem2k wrote:<BR> <DIV>Double whammy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haste on that buff is useless...MOD is way better..should stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Proc on AR and no DPS increase so we can do Troub/Dirge dps..or even less..priceless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm so looking forward to this expansion..not.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Triple wammy, our EoF class AAs suck.

[SorynD]

<DIV> Well now that the NDA is lifted i can talk about this. AR did need to be changed i agree, the way they did it though was not the way it should have been done & beleave me, us brig that have been on the beta server & forums have talked to the dev till we are blue in the face....but all that talking might have goten us some place. few of us have been working with the dev & were taken on some raids & asked for feedback, AR as a proc of any % is just not working so Dymus from what i understand is looking into making it into a toggle CA of sorts. how it'll work if they go this way is: AR will be like the monk invis or sprint  were it'll tick 400 power a tick abouts as long as its up, now were not going to want to have it up all the time or we'll be without power but it has to tick a lot of power to making use'n it tricky. we feel this is prob the best change & will make use'n AR fun CA with skill needed to use effectivly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saryn of FoH</DIV><p>Message Edited by SorynD on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 PM</span>

[Seiden]

now that the NDA was lifted, I am able to use my new sig!<div></div>

[XhaleSlow]

Any nerf is wrong to this skill, and any of you people who are "sucking it up and taking it" or "looking for better ways to nerf it" just need to shut the hell up and betray to swash.

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NemaLVey wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#cc99cc>DPS is consistent damage addition to <U>auto-attack and CA damage</U>, regardless of weapon type and delay used. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is incorrect. DPS% Has no effect at all on CA damage. It only affects auto-attack damage.</P>

[MagicWand]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sobek_eq2 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the test server update notes from November 2nd,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brigand: Deceit: Fixed DPS increase to Haste increase as mentioned in the examine text. <BR>- Brigand: Amazing Reflexes: Changed ability so that AOE avoidance is a short duration percentage trigger from combat arts.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has chosen the worst possible solution for reducing the power of AR. There are so many things they could have done to change it from a 'get of jail free' card to 'very useful', instead they choose almost useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by sobek_eq2 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do remember long ago when a certain scout class (rangers) got a huge nerf to thier dps ability, mainly the ones who were just lazy almost everyone not a ranger were so happy.  Well now it's the brigands turn.   Honestly, AR makes people lazy and just mash buttons instead of skillfully play his/her toon like the rest of the others who have to sometimes eat up AoEs from failed jousting.

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MagicWand wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sobek_eq2 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the test server update notes from November 2nd,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Brigand: Deceit: Fixed DPS increase to Haste increase as mentioned in the examine text. <BR>- Brigand: Amazing Reflexes: Changed ability so that AOE avoidance is a short duration percentage trigger from combat arts.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has chosen the worst possible solution for reducing the power of AR. There are so many things they could have done to change it from a 'get of jail free' card to 'very useful', instead they choose almost useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by sobek_eq2 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do remember long ago when a certain scout class (rangers) got a huge nerf to thier dps ability, mainly the ones who were just lazy almost everyone not a ranger were so happy.  Well now it's the brigands turn.   Honestly, AR makes people lazy and just mash buttons instead of skillfully play his/her toon like the rest of the others who have to sometimes eat up AoEs from failed jousting.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Jousting does not = skill</P> <P> </P> <P>kk thx</P><p>Message Edited by Magus_Blue on <span class=date_text>11-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 AM</span>

[Duster_68]

<img src="http://home.kc.rr.com/warpony/poorbrigand.jpg"><div></div>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>SorynD wrote:<div></div> <div> Well now that the NDA is lifted i can talk about this. AR did need to be changed i agree, the way they did it though was not the way it should have been done & beleave me, us brig that have been on the beta server & forums have talked to the dev till we are blue in the face....but all that talking might have goten us some place. few of us have been working with the dev & were taken on some raids & asked for feedback, AR as a proc of any % is just not working so Dymus from what i understand is looking into making it into a toggle CA of sorts. how it'll work if they go this way is: AR will be like the monk invis or sprint  were it'll tick 400 power a tick abouts as long as its up, now were not going to want to have it up all the time or we'll be without power but it has to tick a lot of power to making use'n it tricky. we feel this is prob the best change & will make use'n AR fun CA with skill needed to use effectivly.</div> <div> </div> <div>Saryn of FoH</div><p>Message Edited by SorynD on <span class="date_text">11-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I speak for myself when i say i rather it be a free mana proc than be drained for 30 seconds of guaranteed immunity.</div>

[Whyte_Fire]

I guess 'Amazing Reflexes' isn't really.. 'Amazing'.. or.. 'Reflexive..' anymore..<div></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

it's really not that big of a deal. i've already started raiding without it.<div></div>

[Fijjy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Whyte_Fire wrote:I guess 'Amazing Reflexes' isn't really.. 'Amazing'.. or.. 'Reflexive..' anymore..<div></div><hr></blockquote>[Removed for Content] can we get the name changed to "Mediocre Dodging" or something to that extent?</div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

It is not that I am mad they changed this ability. However how it is not it is completly useless. Having to know exactly when a aoe is going to hit and then looking to see if your reflexes is up or not is a huge hassle. Completely makes this ability useless, I was in a raid the other night on beta and 3/4 the aoes hit me. The other one i just resisted, reflexes was only up for part of the time and no where close to whenthe AoE hit. Honestly this is one of my favorite abilities in teh game and now it useless. I could see making it a 45 second buff that we can cast ever 2 minutes. Still making us work but not breaking us.My suggestions for changes,2 minute recast buff that last for 30 seconds or 45 secondsA 30 percent proc chance for 25 seconds.30 second recast 10 second duration<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:<BR>It is not that I am mad they changed this ability. However how it is not it is completly useless. Having to know exactly when a aoe is going to hit and then looking to see if your reflexes is up or not is a huge hassle. Completely makes this ability useless, I was in a raid the other night on beta and 3/4 the aoes hit me. The other one i just resisted, reflexes was only up for part of the time and no where close to whenthe AoE hit. Honestly this is one of my favorite abilities in teh game and now it useless. I could see making it a 45 second buff that we can cast ever 2 minutes.<FONT color=#ff0000> Still making us work but not breaking us.<BR></FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How is it you think that changing AR is "breaking" you? I agree that turing this skill into a proc was the worst possible thing they could have done, a short term temp buff on a 2-3m timer would have been just fine. Making it still useful, but not for every AE there is.</P> <P>But anyway, I dont see how you can say that the change is going to break you. You will still be able to do your job... thats Debuffing.  This change shouldnt affect your DPS much on most of the encounters, its not going to change the overall raid DPS much either. Some of brigands best Debuffs can be on a mob for the entire lenght of the fight... perma-debuffs if you will. You'll just wanna try and avoid using Dispatch just before jousting out. </P>

[Blixx001]

Let me get this straight.  The Brigands class defining ability, Amazing Reflexes has gone from a 100% guarantee of dodging aoe (unless direct).  To a 20% CHANCE of a short immunity to aoe on a CA proc??  Um [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?  You have reduced the effectiveness of that buff by well over 80%!!!  Bit much maybe?  Nerf, fine.  Appease the whining scouts who arent Brigands, fine.  Lower our dps, lower our usefulness in raids, fine.  But to take our most benefical self buff and completely render it useless is complete crap. Granted Amazing Reflexes is...... was powerful.  But come on SoE thats not only a nerf but a slap in face.  I have no idea what your all thinking of with this nerf.  Maybe im not seeing the whole picture.  But can you all at SoE think of some way to still make it somewhat useful?  It gets personal I guess when I have spent money every month since from the beginning of the launch.  Have all adventure packs and expansions only to find that my effectiveness as a hardcore raiding Brigand has been cut in half (at least).If you got to nerf the Brigand, at least do it so Amazing Reflexes still has some merit on a raid.<div></div>

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:<BR>It is not that I am mad they changed this ability. However how it is not it is completly useless. Having to know exactly when a aoe is going to hit and then looking to see if your reflexes is up or not is a huge hassle. Completely makes this ability useless, I was in a raid the other night on beta and 3/4 the aoes hit me. The other one i just resisted, reflexes was only up for part of the time and no where close to whenthe AoE hit. Honestly this is one of my favorite abilities in teh game and now it useless. I could see making it a 45 second buff that we can cast ever 2 minutes. Still making us work but not breaking us.<BR><BR>My suggestions for changes,<BR>2 minute recast buff that last for 30 seconds or 45 seconds<BR>A 30 percent proc chance for 25 seconds.<BR>30 second recast 10 second duration<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lol, I've played with the  changes and it is almost useless, since its seldom up when you need it.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by sobek_eq2 on <span class=date_text>11-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:21 PM</span>

[Rahatmattata]

<P>Just thought I'd share this. This was posted by lead designer Dymus and is the only explanation I have seen for the AR change. I don't agree with the change and hopefully I won't get in trouble for posting this because it came from the beta boards, although the NDA is lifted so I don't see why I would.</P> <P> </P> <P><EM>As a preface:  I'd prefer that any personal attacks within this thread stop now.  Those are neither constructive, nor welcome.<BR><BR>Changes within the spells and abilities of the game are always done for a specific reason.  The original intent for Amazing Reflexes was to give some survivability to brigands who needed to get close to a mob in order to do their damage and apply their debuffs.  Given the recent changes to the combat system the original intent of Amazing Reflexes becomes less valid.  These extemely high damage AE's that could one shot kill or nearly kill a brigand (or non tank class) have been lessened in most cases.  <BR><BR>This is not to say we will definitely keep Amazing Reflexes in its current form on Beta.  It may change before the expansion releases if during testing its found to be better suited in some other implementation.  I'd like to make it clear that we will continue to tune the game to adjust to the changes in the system.  The mobs and challenges have been changing too, and everything has to be taken as a complete package.<BR><BR>The upcoming proc changes may also help with the frequency of this ability triggering.</EM></P>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:It is not that I am mad they changed this ability. However how it is not it is completly useless. Having to know exactly when a aoe is going to hit and then looking to see if your reflexes is up or not is a huge hassle. Completely makes this ability useless, I was in a raid the other night on beta and 3/4 the aoes hit me. The other one i just resisted, reflexes was only up for part of the time and no where close to whenthe AoE hit. Honestly this is one of my favorite abilities in teh game and now it useless. I could see making it a 45 second buff that we can cast ever 2 minutes.<font color="#ff0000"> Still making us work but not breaking us.</font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>How is it you think that changing AR is "breaking" you? I agree that turing this skill into a proc was the worst possible thing they could have done, a short term temp buff on a 2-3m timer would have been just fine. Making it still useful, but not for every AE there is.</p> <p>But anyway, I dont see how you can say that the change is going to break you. You will still be able to do your job... thats Debuffing.  This change shouldnt affect your DPS much on most of the encounters, its not going to change the overall raid DPS much either. Some of brigands best Debuffs can be on a mob for the entire lenght of the fight... perma-debuffs if you will. You'll just wanna try and avoid using Dispatch just before jousting out. </p><hr></blockquote>I am guessing you have never played a brigandl, or perhaps do not know all the spells, or maybe you are just jealous of us. Whatever fine, the truth told is you do not know what you are talking about. I belive there is a number 7. This five represents more then your number for you, it means brigands have 7 attacks that are just attacks, meaning we have to be in a fight the ENTIRE time to keep a mob completly debuffed. Even with these five attacks 1 of them is our ranged attacked and that is going to be one of our most vauluable attacks now. Also, one of these is our aoe, that really does not do a lot of damge, and a few of the other ones are being nerfed. So ya, you say we are still what were I beg to differ sir. Either you need to roll and brigand and see the spells or not troll boards.Also let me enlighten you on our debuffing there are a equal number of debuffs that are shorter duration then recast then those that are longer duration then recast. Also there is a few that are equal duration to recast. Thus meaning us not being in the whole time leaves debuffs not perma debuffed as you qouted. Along with not all of debuffs ALLWAYS land even at master on mob that are orange they do not allways land and never will. However it was not a huge deal becuase we were able to stay in the entire time and keep other debuffs up to compsensate. While what i suggested would still not solve this issue it would certainly help it with muiltiple brigand raids.And shouldn't change our DPS. Your  on crack my friend. Not gonna lie here, most of our dps is from those 7 that we would cast while not dubuffing. Meaning when we are in we are debuffing according to you and our dps will decrease by at least 20 percent. I promise you, i can bring out logs to show you how much dps our 6 atacks that are pure damage do. But thats ok, i do not need to prove myself to a troll that has no clue about the class he is talking about. Even if you have a brigand then you are the worst brigand ever to even say that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and you should have your account banned becuase you do not know what you are talking about.Also I am invited your [Removed for Content] ranger class to show me while this skill should be nerfed. And why you believe what you think. I will either bring post, data from Beta or just pure knowledge about the game to prove your wrong, becuase sir you do not know what you are talking about. I will agree this skill may be overpowered, however it was our class defining skill, similar to zerker-Rampage/DestructionSk- harm touchswahsy- Inspired daringRanger- there [Removed for Content] who caresAssasin- DecapGuardian- they have a few, ToS...Dirge- CoBTroub- Jester cap or dehate.. they have alotanyways  you get the picture.... brign it i will prove you wrong. Nerfing this ability is wrong, and shouldn't happen.</div>

[Bhronn]

other classes coming here and saying that Losing AR wont hurt us and learn2play = priceless. its like me telling a guardian that we are taking away tower of stone and replacing it with a buff that procs 1 time on a 3% chance to learn2play. And I can go on with any class like this. Losing AR will in several ways negatively effect the brigand class and it will negatively effect the raid to a degree. Either by more power spent on healing the brig or debuffs not being on at a precise time due to the AE. Does that mean brigs are [Removed for Content]? Nope, but we are reduced in overall power more significally than the other classes with the combat changes. Due to the proc mechanic changes AR has a 3% chance to proc on a CA. Not 15, not 17 regardless what the spell definition says and heres why. AR buff is considered a proc item for all intents and purposes so it uses the spell proc mechanics. Spell procs are set at 3 X the casting time of the spell. IE if a spell take 5 secs to cast, the proc item would have a 15% chance to proc off that spell. Since AR is a buff that procs its treated as a spell and the % is based off the casting time of our CA's. 90% of our CA's are 1 sec or less casting so  3 X 1 = 3% chance to proc regardless what the definition says.Now I posted back 4 weeks ago an idea for AR and sent in several other ideas to alleviate the change.1 was to turn AR into a toggle with a power cost as long as it was up. Still get the benefit of ae immunity with the ADDED benifit of making the skill more challenging to use. Poison choices would become more important and overall this change adds to the class rather than takes away.2 was to make dispatch and rake side and behind useable. One of the best reasons for AR was so the brig wasnt trying to find a mobs back 24/7 and sure, it takes skill but after a bit, skill becomes annoyance. making those 2 best debuffs able to land from the side or from behind would take some of the pressure off a brig to land them after jousting an AE. This also keeps us from losing as much dps on the joust because we arent "looking" for a mobs back.Ive also sent in other ideas and alot have already been implemented. We have some good devs and when most of you start seeing the eof raid mobs youll understand why a 100% ae immune class just wasnt viable anymore. thats not to say I wouldnt rather just leave it alone, but ive seen 98% of the raid encounters in eof and even I can see what would happen if AR was left alone. In closing, yes the change does hurt as it stands now but in no way does it break us. Should the toggle go in, the skill will become a strategy component and actually add to the class and still accomplishs what the devs need to accomplish.innocentFoH<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>I am guessing you have never played a brigandl, or perhaps do not know all the spells, or maybe you are just jealous of us</FONT>. Whatever fine, the truth told is you do not know what you are talking about. I belive there is a number 7. This five represents more then your number for you, it means brigands have 7 attacks that are just attacks, meaning we have to be in a fight the ENTIRE time to keep a mob completly debuffed. Even with these five attacks 1 of them is our ranged attacked and that is going to be one of our most vauluable attacks now. Also, one of these is our aoe, that really does not do a lot of damge, and a few of the other ones are being nerfed. So ya, you say we are still what were I beg to differ sir. Either you need to roll and brigand and see the spells or not troll boards.<BR><BR>Also let me enlighten you on our debuffing there are a equal number of debuffs that are shorter duration then recast then those that are longer duration then recast. Also there is a few that are equal duration to recast. Thus meaning us not being in the whole time leaves debuffs not perma debuffed as you qouted. Along with not all of debuffs ALLWAYS land even at master on mob that are orange they do not allways land and never will. However it was not a huge deal becuase we were able to stay in the entire time and keep other debuffs up to compsensate. While what i suggested would still not solve this issue it would certainly help it with muiltiple brigand raids.<BR><BR>And shouldn't change our DPS. Your  on crack my friend. Not gonna lie here, most of our dps is from those 7 that we would cast while not dubuffing. Meaning when we are in we are debuffing according to you and our dps will decrease by at least 20 percent. I promise you, i can bring out logs to show you how much dps our 6 atacks that are pure damage do. But thats ok, i do not need to prove myself to a troll that has no clue about the class he is talking about. Even if you have a brigand then you are the worst brigand ever to even say that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and you should have your account banned becuase you do not know what you are talking about.<BR><BR>Also I am invited your [Removed for Content] ranger class to show me while this skill should be nerfed. And why you believe what you think. I will either bring post, data from Beta or just pure knowledge about the game to prove your wrong, becuase sir you do not know what you are talking about. I will agree this skill may be overpowered, however it was our class defining skill, similar to <BR>zerker-Rampage/Destruction<BR>Sk- harm touch<BR>swahsy- Inspired daring<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Ranger- there [Removed for Content] who cares</FONT><BR>Assasin- Decap<BR>Guardian- they have a few, ToS...<BR>Dirge- CoB<BR>Troub- Jester cap or dehate.. they have alot<BR>anyways  you get the picture.... brign it i will prove you wrong. Nerfing this ability is wrong, and shouldn't happen.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I hate to be the one that breaks this to you, but I do play a brigand.... and yes.. I do raid with it.... next.</P> <P>As for your ranged attack, yea its [Removed for Content], but it can be used on the move... Ask a ranger how many ranged attacks they can use on the move. </P> <P>Just how many mobs have AEs that you need to joust? Seriously? The AR nerf is not the gloom and doom that so many of you are making it out to be. Okay, sure, you're going to have to joust a few AEs... your DPS might suffer a bit, but its not going to be a serious as you make it out to be.</P> <P>I love the last highlighted comment. You sir, truely do not have a clue what you are talking about. But as long as you are talking about class defining skills, lets talk about the brigand oh... Ummm let me think.. oh yea.. its prolly called DISPATCH! <-- pretty powerful debuff there.  Rake and Devit <-- well look at that. Whats the recast on that? 1m? How long do those stay on? 1m 12s? hmmm yeah.. lets not forget that each one of those debuffs all deal damage. Out of all the Brigand debuffs, only one doesnt deal damage. How many debuffs expire before the reuse timer is up? Disptach.... ummm... anything else? You can still keep the mob fully debuffs, thus you can still "do your job". Brigands arent taken on raids for thier uber DPS, and certainly not for the fact that they have AOE immunity.</P> <P>Heres a tip for ya though.. if you do find that you'll have to joust a mob, stab & disembowel it before you joust out so your dps doesnt suffer as big a hit. The nerf to AR sucks, nerfs in general suck, and I can understand you being upset at the change. Like I said, I think turning into a proc is lame, and I would have like to have seen it more in the players control, but its not the end of the world. You'll adapt and move on. </P> <P>Now Ni7r0k, Ive hear alot of crying from you, but I have not heard one thing explaining how changing AR is "breaking" you.</P>

[PowertothePeople]

<DIV>Well, guess I wont buy EoF then and look around till some other game comes along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O, Brigs are taken on raids for Dispatch, and to say that they arent taken on raids because of AoE immune is just stupid. There are guilds out there that use 5 to 6 Brigands just for that reason so they can keep Dispatch up. Now yes thats wrong, dont blame the class blame teh guild that cant do anything without them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean I could make a Ranger or Caster to become AoE immune. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:00 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:03 AM</span>

[kyth]

    With plenty of ways to change AR the dev team takes the worst possible route.  They take one of the class defining skills that brigand have and make it completely useless.  Anything based on a proc takes away any shred of skill using it.  So now it is a luck factor and you get it what maybe 1-2 times a minute randomly.  So you get it for 20 seconds every minute but you have no control on it.  Honestly if they wanted to take away the always on off AR they could have made it a 20sec duration with  10 sec reuse, or something.  That way you would have to time it.  not just put it up and forget about it.If the brigand community will not put up with these changes i suggest a few things.  1)  Do not let this thread die, keep it going until stuff gets changed.2)  Last time they did this we PM'd the devs, it worked so do it again3)  Keep PM'ing the devs until it gets changed.I would suggest PM'ing lockeye, Gallenite, and Dymus about this change and how you feel about it.  Make sure you keep the comments clean.  Granted i know lockeye is going to edit this post and take out the pming part....<div></div>

[kyth]

<blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:    With plenty of ways to change AR the dev team takes the worst possible route.  They take one of the class defining skills that brigand have and make it completely useless.  Anything based on a proc takes away any shred of skill using it.  So now it is a luck factor and you get it what maybe 1-2 times a minute randomly.  So you get it for 20 seconds every minute but you have no control on it.  Honestly if they wanted to take away the always on off AR they could have made it a 20sec duration with  10 sec reuse, or something.  That way you would have to time it.  not just put it up and forget about it.If the brigand community will not put up with these changes i suggest a few things.  1)  Do not let this thread die, keep it going until stuff gets changed.2)  Last time they did this we PM'd the devs, it worked so do it again3)  Keep PM'ing the devs until it gets changed.I would suggest PM'ing lockeye, Gallenite, and Dymus about this change and how you feel about it.  Make sure you keep the comments clean.  Granted i know lockeye is going to edit this post and take out the pming part....<div></div><hr></blockquote>just be relentless and they will end up changing it to something useful.  That or take away AR from us and give us the swash's Hurricane!!<div></div>

[LlewCadey]

oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] im SICK of hearing people complain how brigands are getting nerfed and will be completely usless! LEARN TO PLAY YOUR [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING CLASS!!!jousting school 101: when raid leader calls AE, back out with the rest of DPS... ZOMG YOU HAVE TO LISTEN! and MOVE?!cry me a river if you cant play without AR, its not class defining, its a crutch that helps in raids, sure its useful, but in all the KOS raid zones apart from a few encounters all are easily played without AR and still parsing as well as you did before, and for the ones where AR does help because it makes you god, just learn to actually play cohesivly with your raidnow for the noob who talks about how hard it is to find the Back of a mob on a raid, you need to either actually just pay slight attention or get a tank who can place a mob, if you have trouble finding the backside of a mob, you need to go back to refugee island, cus theres already enough [Removed for Content] in T7 who shouldnt be there, and you just add to the pile.AR nerf sucks, but deal with it, try raid some now without AR and learn a few things, youll find its not as bad as you make it out to be<div></div>

[DaLurk]

Take a colt.<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Colt_SAA45.jpg">Empty the barrel.Put a bullet in.Roll the barrel.Shove it up your mouth.Pull the trigger.Become skilled (or not).<div></div>AR = Russian Rouletteskill <> luck

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PowertothePeople wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, guess I wont buy EoF then and look around till some other game comes along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O, Brigs are taken on raids for Dispatch, and to say that they arent taken on raids because of AoE immune is just stupid. There are guilds out there that use 5 to 6 Brigands just for that reason so they can keep Dispatch up. Now yes thats wrong, dont blame the class blame teh guild that cant do anything without them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I mean I could make a Ranger or Caster to become AoE immune</FONT>. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:00 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im going to assume by this second edit that you mean we can stand at 35m?</P> <P>Get a clue, any ranger standing at 35m sucks! All good rangers know that to max their dps they have to be within 5m, but I wouldnt expect you to understand that. The casters I know dont stand at max cast either. You'll really have to do better then that.<BR></P>

[Kreat]

<P>You guys couldnt see this coming?  But yeah getting nerfed sucks especially when you love to play the class :smileysad: Sad to see Sone deal with it this way.</P>

[Rokjin]

<DIV>I am seriously amazed at all the brigands cying they won't be able to debuff anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FOR [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]S SAKE SWASHBUCKLERS HAVE BEEN DEBUFFING WITH HALF DURATION AND HALF REUSE TIMERS WHILE TAKING AE'S UP THE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. LEARN TO [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING PLAY!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I can debuff a mob once every 30 seconds for our key debuffs, you can debuff it once every minute for your key debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really cannot understand.. How do you think Swashbucklers have been debuffing all this time without having AR?!</DIV>

[Bhronn]

<div><blockquote><hr>now for the noob who talks about how hard it is to find the Back of a mob on a raid, you need to either actually just pay slight attention or get a tank who can place a mob, if you have trouble finding the backside of a mob, you need to go back to refugee island, cus theres already enough [Removed for Content] in T7 who shouldnt be there, and you just add to the pile.<hr></blockquote>  Im going to assume your talking to me about the ideas of making dispatch and rake side or behind useable. No one said finding  the back of a mob was difficult. The intent of the suggestion is to be able to run in and land the debuffs without having to do much other than joust the AE. there are precious seconds on matron for the raid to run in and all do thier dps and having dispatch able to be landed from  those quadrants would be useful anyway you look at it. im glad you are fine with the AR nerf. Alot of people arent and again you may want to set the beer down for a few hours before posting because not only do you come off as angry but as someone who isnt fully in control of thier Intellegence.InnocentFires of heaven</div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<p><font color="#ffffcc">I</font><font color="#ffffcc"> hate to be the one that breaks this to you, but I do play a brigand.... and yes.. I do raid with it.... next.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Then maybe it is time for you to see how this spell is going to be used in KoS becuase right now, it worthless we can not know for sure when it will be up, or if it will still be up when aoe is going to hit. Making it a PITA to see it.</font></p> <p>As for your ranged attack, yea its [Removed for Content], but it can be used on the move... Ask a ranger how many ranged attacks they can use on the move.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">So, do you know on my berserker i can run and shoot my bow and do 4k damage every 7seconds? OO ya, thats right brigands ranged are worthless, the only good thing it is for is soloing. The attack all together may do 2k.</font> </p> <p>Just how many mobs have AEs that you need to joust? Seriously? The AR nerf is not the gloom and doom that so many of you are making it out to be. Okay, sure, you're going to have to joust a few AEs... your DPS might suffer a bit, but its not going to be a serious as you make it out to be.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Whole cares about most mobs, but mobs like Chel'Drak and Matron, ya, have fun staying in while those aoe's hit. Like to see how many you last and how long your raid takes to kill it now with no brigs in there.</font></p> <p>I love the last highlighted comment. You sir, truely do not have a clue what you are talking about. But as long as you are talking about class defining skills, lets talk about the brigand oh... Ummm let me think.. oh yea.. its prolly called DISPATCH! <-- pretty powerful debuff there.  Rake and Devit <-- well look at that. Whats the recast on that? 1m? How long do those stay on? 1m 12s? hmmm yeah.. lets not forget that each one of those debuffs all deal damage. Out of all the Brigand debuffs, only one doesnt deal damage. How many debuffs expire before the reuse timer is up? Disptach.... ummm... anything else? You can still keep the mob fully debuffs, thus you can still "do your job". Brigands arent taken on raids for thier uber DPS, and certainly not for the fact that they have AOE immunity.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Rake has been in the game since 20 so that is nothing new and Devitalize has been in the game since lvl 60, while these are bolth valueable skills, it is no where near the value to us as AR. The debuff timers there are 2 or 3 that have same recast or lower duration then recast. Sry for that error last night, was well, lets not talk about it... just know i couldn't read correctly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However alot of guilds like brigands becuase they can deal a descent amount of dps, and debuff alot bringing the total raid DPS up. However i think your failing to see how AR makes our dps steady and basically what gives us our dps. Right now I can just see that most brigands are going to be trying to make up for lost dps by spamming everything they have when they are in and thus pulling aggro...... uttt oo.... at least AR doesn't have a hate gain anymore. I am not sure what you are parsing, and what your guildmates parse, but in everysingle parse from guilds on my server usually Brigands are in the top 5 for dps. So saying they are not brought for dps is a lie as well.</font></p> <p>Heres a tip for ya though.. if you do find that you'll have to joust a mob, stab & disembowel it before you joust out so your dps doesnt suffer as big a hit. The nerf to AR sucks, nerfs in general suck, and I can understand you being upset at the change. Like I said, I think turning into a proc is lame, and I would have like to have seen it more in the players control, but its not the end of the world. You'll adapt and move on.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I really don't care that is changing my dps, i really don't care that i have to look for a stupid icon to know if have to joust. I just a spell that i can use, i know my guildmates are going to be able to pick up dps that i am loosing someway or another.</font> </p> <p>Now Ni7r0k, Ive hear alot of crying from you, but I have not heard one thing explaining how changing AR is "breaking" you.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Its breaking me becuase it was the coolest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ability ever! Also our dps will go down and no matter what you say, our debuffs are never going to be up the entire time now. I don't care what mob your if you have to joust it now they are going to have a aoe that will eventually land when your debuffs are expiring, and lets no forget mobs that automatically dispell debuffs.</font></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rokjin wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am seriously amazed at all the brigands cying they won't be able to debuff anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FOR [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]S SAKE SWASHBUCKLERS HAVE BEEN DEBUFFING WITH HALF DURATION AND HALF REUSE TIMERS WHILE TAKING AE'S UP THE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. LEARN TO [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING PLAY!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I can debuff a mob once every 30 seconds for our key debuffs, you can debuff it once every minute for your key debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really cannot understand.. How do you think Swashbucklers have been debuffing all this time without having AR?!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>What?  Swashbucklers debuff?? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think some are concerned with keeping swipe up (and yeah swashies usually have also but this has been more or less our "job" since we get to stay in and melee... or did up till now), ruckus (10 sec recast/duration), shrouded bladed (10 sec recast/duration)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I think debuffs are a side item.  The underlying issue is most likely dps... since a good swashie will easily out-dps a brigand, even while they are jousting.  Now brigand/swashie divide will be made even larger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if that happens, guess who will get hit with the nerfbat next?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if I were you, I'd be all for keeping AR just as it is... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Neue Reg]

<DIV>The funny thing is, I dont know many other skills that have been under constant review and changes like AR has.  Every single expansion and sometimes between expansions, soe decides to play with this skill over and over.  Why would it be ok in T6 and T7 but now all of a sudden it is too overpowered?  I doubt a handfull of raid mobs generated this change!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont agree with this change, nor did I agree with the last change.  We made enough noise the last time they nerfed AR hard to have them adjust some things so that it was at least manageable.  But again you guys have made the skill virtually useless...just like the last time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gonna need to have an extra healer in my group just to keep me up so that debuffs can be landed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, like I have said before...remember not only does this effect the brigands dps, it effects the entire raid's dps.  Grats to all the haters, you finally got your way.</DIV>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PowertothePeople wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, guess I wont buy EoF then and look around till some other game comes along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O, Brigs are taken on raids for Dispatch, and to say that they arent taken on raids because of AoE immune is just stupid. There are guilds out there that use 5 to 6 Brigands just for that reason so they can keep Dispatch up. Now yes thats wrong, dont blame the class blame teh guild that cant do anything without them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I mean I could make a Ranger or Caster to become AoE immune</FONT>. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:00 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im going to assume by this second edit that you mean we can stand at 35m?</P> <P>Get a clue, any ranger standing at 35m sucks! All good rangers know that to max their dps they have to be within 5m, but I wouldnt expect you to understand that. The casters I know dont stand at max cast either. You'll really have to do better then that.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Excuse me, but to say that's the same as doing melee dps is pretty dumb.</P> <P>You can hop your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] back while procing off autoattack and land your ranged CA's while waiting for AE to come out.  Brigand have 1 crappy ranged CA and must be at melee range for any others, and for autoattacking.  Completely [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing different situation.</P> <P> </P>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neue Regel wrote:<BR> <DIV>The funny thing is, I dont know many other skills that have been under constant review and changes like AR has.  Every single expansion and sometimes between expansions, soe decides to play with this skill over and over.  Why would it be ok in T6 and T7 but now all of a sudden it is too overpowered?  I doubt a handfull of raid mobs generated this change!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont agree with this change, nor did I agree with the last change.  We made enough noise the last time they nerfed AR hard to have them adjust some things so that it was at least manageable.  But again you guys have made the skill virtually useless...just like the last time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gonna need to have an extra healer in my group just to keep me up so that debuffs can be landed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, like I have said before...remember not only does this effect the brigands dps, it effects the entire raid's dps.  Grats to all the haters, you finally got your way.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It sounds from Dymus that it's due to the mechanics change.  Since most AE's are ones we'll be able to fight through with some decent resist (or at least that's what it sounds like), AR is unnecessary there... And for the tougher mobs like Chel'drak, Matron, or equivalents in the expansion, they probably don't want these encounters being trivialized by raids dropping 5 brigands in there.  They actually want the tough encounters to be tough.. for everyone.  Part of that is dealing with AE.

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:    With plenty of ways to change AR the dev team takes the worst possible route.  They take one of the class defining skills that brigand have and make it completely useless.  Anything based on a proc takes away any shred of skill using it.  So now it is a luck factor and you get it what maybe 1-2 times a minute randomly.  So you get it for 20 seconds every minute but you have no control on it.  Honestly if they wanted to take away the always on off AR they could have made it a 20sec duration with  10 sec reuse, or something.  That way you would have to time it.  not just put it up and forget about it.If the brigand community will not put up with these changes i suggest a few things.  1)  Do not let this thread die, keep it going until stuff gets changed.2)  Last time they did this we PM'd the devs, it worked so do it again3)  Keep PM'ing the devs until it gets changed.I would suggest PM'ing lockeye, Gallenite, and Dymus about this change and how you feel about it.  Make sure you keep the comments clean.  Granted i know lockeye is going to edit this post and take out the pming part....<div></div><hr></blockquote>first off... welcome to reality...warlocks got their nerf  into oblivion in lu 13...troubadours got nerfed in lu 24....brigands get nerfed with eof release....in all 3 cases we are talking about class defining ability's that where nerfed into complete useless crap.its not like it was a emergency fix a few days after they received them.... it was in all 3 cases several months ago that they received the stuff that got nerfed.soe really needs to test changes more intensive and longer before they go to live servers, so that there will be no need to butcher certain classes several monthes after they received some new ability.</div>

[Phluxx]

Okay, so let me get this straight....   The AE may or may not hit me, so ...   a class that has little to zero ranged ability and already does not do massive amounts of DPS has to go ranged?THAT IS F'ING STOOPID!   our DPS is going to drop to like 500 or less....   Thoes mobs with two AE's , even lower...  The core of a brigand is being sneaky and underhanded, its bad enought we can no longer sneak past everything (how dumb is that) but now we have to run away like a ranja without a bow....SONY... pull your head out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and make the class function like, well... like you named it.<div></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>First off, for all those who say our dps won't get hit hard please learn to play the class and open up a parser because you have no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing clue how the class works so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] now.  Over half our dps comes from autoattack so when we'll have to joust our dps will drop like a rock no matter which CAs you cast. </P> <P>I think the change sucks, the only thing that sucks more is guilds who used 3+ brigands to trivialize content.  That's what made the change necessary.  It was necessary but the change resulted in getting it too nurfed.  As a proc with 5 points into the proc AA it won't be up long enough to make it useful.</P>

[shirpa]

<div></div><div></div><font color="#9999cc" face="Verdana" size="2">Way to go SOE. /golfclapI love my brigand as it is. To lower our already lower DPS (compared to other scouts except bards) is wrong <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can deal with the lesser DPS if the tradeoff is being able to constantly debuff. Jousting AOEs is going to make it harder to debuff and lower DPS even more. That's not much to bring to the table <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If I suck at DPS and debuffing, what use is it to keep playing a brigand? Bards at least have utility buffs for the other classes./plead SOE, please don't nerf AR like this!!!!! /cry /beg <span>:smileysad: Please don't kill our class off!</span>LU13 drove alot of people away from the game. These upcoming changes to alot of classes may well do that again. You are already going to lose alot of subscribers with Vanguard coming out. A combination of the 2 may be the dagger in the heart...</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by shirpa on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 AM</span>

[PowertothePeople]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magus_Blue wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PowertothePeople wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, guess I wont buy EoF then and look around till some other game comes along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O, Brigs are taken on raids for Dispatch, and to say that they arent taken on raids because of AoE immune is just stupid. There are guilds out there that use 5 to 6 Brigands just for that reason so they can keep Dispatch up. Now yes thats wrong, dont blame the class blame teh guild that cant do anything without them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I mean I could make a Ranger or Caster to become AoE immune</FONT>. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:00 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im going to assume by this second edit that you mean we can stand at 35m?</P> <P>Get a clue, any ranger standing at 35m sucks! All good rangers know that to max their dps they have to be within 5m, but I wouldnt expect you to understand that. The casters I know dont stand at max cast either. You'll really have to do better then that.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Excuse me, but to say that's the same as doing melee dps is pretty dumb.</P> <P>You can hop your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] back while procing off autoattack and land your ranged CA's while waiting for AE to come out.  Brigand have 1 crappy ranged CA and must be at melee range for any others, and for autoattacking.  Completely [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing different situation.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, I'm not saying rangers do all their DPS from range, just 80% of it. You dont have to be within melee range to do decent DPS as a ranger and can AVOID THE AoE which helps the healers out without scarifacing much at all, and if your saying that Brigs can out DPS a ranger at range then you need to get a clue. Now, rangers SHOULD beable to do this because of the class, I have no problem with this.</P> <P>If your casters arent standing at max range during an encounter with AoE and are getting hit with it, then you shouldnt be playing with them.</P>

[Yojimbo99]

<P>ar change is rather crappy, but for me a different reason i really liked having the 14% hate gain for when i wanted to play tank for a few guildies. and when i did manage to get out to a raid it was realy nice to have up. </P> <P>the funny part is what is happening with the monk aa's :</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>26.  Dodge </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Body -- Cost per rank:  5 -- <FONT color=#ffffff>Ranks:  1</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> -- Prerequisite:  </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Requires 15 points in Body</FONT><BR></FONT>Allows the monk to automatically dodge the next melee attack and any non-direct area effect abilities within the next few seconds.  This disable the monk's autoattack and use of abilities while in effect<BR></P> <UL> <LI>Duration: <FONT color=#999999><STRIKE>5.0</STRIKE> <FONT color=#ff0000>10.0</FONT> </FONT>seconds <LI>Prevents AOE (except when direct) <LI>Dazes caster <LI>Stifles caster <LI>Caster will Dodge 100% of incoming attacks <LI>Dispelled when target receives hostile action <LI>Epic targets gain an immunity to Stifle and Daze effects of <FONT color=#999999><STRIKE>15.0</STRIKE></FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>30.0</FONT> seconds and duration is reduced to<FONT color=#999999> </FONT><FONT color=#999999><STRIKE>1.7</STRIKE></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> 3.3 </FONT>seconds</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>25.  Evade </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Awareness -- Cost per rank:  5 <FONT color=#ffffff>-- </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Ranks:  1</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> -- </FONT>Prerequisite:  <FONT color=#ffffff>Requires 15 points in Awareness</FONT><BR>Reduces the target's hate towards the monk<BR></P> <UL> <LI>Decreases Threat to target by <FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>661-1102</FONT> </FONT></LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#6699ff>11.  Alternate:  Mongoose Stance </FONT></STRONG>-- Classification:  Awareness -- Cost per rank:  1 -- Ranks:  5 -- Prerequisite:  Requires 6 or 7 @ rank 3<BR>As an alternative to Dragon Stance, this stance has a chance of refucing the target's hate towards the monk on a successful strike<BR></P> <UL> <LI>On a successful strike this spell has a <STRIKE><FONT color=#999999>higher than normal</FONT></STRIKE><FONT color=#999999> <FONT color=#ff0000>50% </FONT></FONT>chance to cast Mongoose Dodge on target of attack.  If a melee attack is used, only the primary weapon can trigger this effect.<BR> <UL> <LI>Decreases Threat to target by 98</LI></UL></LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>lol guess everyone is gettin some kinda advoid aoe's these days</P>

[Harvash]

<P>Not really a post in response to anything in particular, but rather an experience I just had doing a Lab trash run. </P> <P>First, I know I am a little low for this zone, but running with the guild now for a few runs here has met with success (imho).</P> <P>The last time we made this run, I somehow screwed myself on the pull and gained aggro, immediatly was one-shotted...ok, np it happens.  Local healer rezi's me and its back into the fray.  HOWEVER, I somehow managed to forget to put AR buff on.  I will tell you, I was gettting hammered and began to joust the AE's with the others.  This did manage to keep me alive, mostly..but when the fight was over I looked at the parse.  Two things were VERY apparent: </P> <P>1. The overall Raid DPS was much, much lower..incl our assassin's  who usually has a sick parse leaving me jealous..lol</P> <P>2.  My parse was abysmal, at best.</P> <P>I did re-check all buffs before the next pull, found the AR was down, and corrected the situation.  The next fights were business as usual....and resulted in my very first Relic piece (yay, me)</P> <P>The long and short of this is, AR is needed...nerfing it doesnt just change how we play...but causes EVERYONE to re-evaluate...that just doesnt seem balanced or fair IMHO.</P> <P>Thanks for bearing with my long winded story...Play On..</P> <P> </P>

[Sete Soujiro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR>    With plenty of ways to change AR the dev team takes the worst possible route.  They take one of the class defining skills that brigand have and make it completely useless.  Anything based on a proc takes away any shred of skill using it.  So now it is a luck factor and you get it what maybe 1-2 times a minute randomly.  So you get it for 20 seconds every minute but you have no control on it.  Honestly if they wanted to take away the always on off AR they could have made it a 20sec duration with  10 sec reuse, or something.  That way you would have to time it.  not just put it up and forget about it.<BR><BR>If the brigand community will not put up with these changes i suggest a few things.  <BR><BR>1)  Do not let this thread die, keep it going until stuff gets changed.<BR>2)  Last time they did this we PM'd the devs, it worked so do it again<BR>3)  Keep PM'ing the devs until it gets changed.<BR><BR>I would suggest PM'ing lockeye, Gallenite, and Dymus about this change and how you feel about it.  Make sure you keep the comments clean.  Granted i know lockeye is going to edit this post and take out the pming part....<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Little birdie told me that Lockeye is leaving

[Myrcul]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magus_Blue wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neue Regel wrote:<BR> <DIV>The funny thing is, I dont know many other skills that have been under constant review and changes like AR has.  Every single expansion and sometimes between expansions, soe decides to play with this skill over and over.  Why would it be ok in T6 and T7 but now all of a sudden it is too overpowered?  I doubt a handfull of raid mobs generated this change!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont agree with this change, nor did I agree with the last change.  We made enough noise the last time they nerfed AR hard to have them adjust some things so that it was at least manageable.  But again you guys have made the skill virtually useless...just like the last time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gonna need to have an extra healer in my group just to keep me up so that debuffs can be landed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, like I have said before...remember not only does this effect the brigands dps, it effects the entire raid's dps.  Grats to all the haters, you finally got your way.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It sounds from Dymus that it's due to the mechanics change.  Since most AE's are ones we'll be able to fight through with some decent resist (or at least that's what it sounds like), AR is unnecessary there... And for the tougher mobs like Chel'drak, Matron, or equivalents in the expansion, they probably don't want these encounters being trivialized by raids dropping 5 brigands in there.  They actually want the tough encounters to be tough.. for everyone.  Part of that is dealing with AE.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If we can fight through them with decent resists, then there was no need to change AR.  </P> <P>If they are planning for more AE encounters and they are worrying about 5+ brigands in a raid trivialising their content.. get off your damnable thumbs and learn how to code/make truly challenging encounters instead of relying on removing abilities from players as this does nothing but engender hostility and disloyalty in your long term player base.</P> <P>It was an ill conceived change and should not have been made.</P> <P>M</P>

[LlewCadey]

if people actually read the devs response to the AR changes look at what he said about matron/chel drak type AEs. with the expansion orange mobs are being made easier, and thier AEs are being lessened so they dont one shot all but the tank.its one small change in a greater scheme of changes, meaning the entire stats revamp may just mean AR is relativly redudent as AEs will be able to be tanked if your resists are up, EVEN matron style ones. Just wait till its out, if you find your DPS drops horribly AND you are an experience brigand (not one of these guys who thinks AR is class defining) then maybe its cause for concern, but till then, i suggest harvesting a few moonstones<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote: <P><BR><FONT color=#ffffcc>I</FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc> hate to be the one that breaks this to you, but I do play a brigand.... and yes.. I do raid with it.... next.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Then maybe it is time for you to see how this spell is going to be used in KoS becuase right now, it worthless we can not know for sure when it will be up, or if it will still be up when aoe is going to hit. Making it a PITA to see it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Easy enough, I'll just play like every other class and joust if need be. More then likely I'll never us AR</FONT></P> <P>As for your ranged attack, yea its [Removed for Content], but it can be used on the move... Ask a ranger how many ranged attacks they can use on the move.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>So, do you know on my berserker i can run and shoot my bow and do 4k damage every 7seconds? OO ya, thats right brigands ranged are worthless, the only good thing it is for is soloing. The attack all together may do 2k.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Then get a bow like Sarnak if you want to do 4k every 8s.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Just how many mobs have AEs that you need to joust? Seriously? The AR nerf is not the gloom and doom that so many of you are making it out to be. Okay, sure, you're going to have to joust a few AEs... your DPS might suffer a bit, but its not going to be a serious as you make it out to be.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Whole cares about most mobs, but mobs like Chel'Drak and Matron, ya, have fun staying in while those aoe's hit. Like to see how many you last and how long your raid takes to kill it now with no brigs in there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Its been said, they are changing the way AEs one shot players. Thats what part of the revamp was about.</FONT><BR></P> <P>I love the last highlighted comment. You sir, truely do not have a clue what you are talking about. But as long as you are talking about class defining skills, lets talk about the brigand oh... Ummm let me think.. oh yea.. its prolly called DISPATCH! <-- pretty powerful debuff there.  Rake and Devit <-- well look at that. Whats the recast on that? 1m? How long do those stay on? 1m 12s? hmmm yeah.. lets not forget that each one of those debuffs all deal damage. Out of all the Brigand debuffs, only one doesnt deal damage. How many debuffs expire before the reuse timer is up? Disptach.... ummm... anything else? You can still keep the mob fully debuffs, thus you can still "do your job". Brigands arent taken on raids for thier uber DPS, and certainly not for the fact that they have AOE immunity.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rake has been in the game since 20 so that is nothing new and Devitalize has been in the game since lvl 60, while these are bolth valueable skills, it is no where near the value to us as AR. The debuff timers there are 2 or 3 that have same recast or lower duration then recast. Sry for that error last night, was well, lets not talk about it... just know i couldn't read correctly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However alot of guilds like brigands becuase they can deal a descent amount of dps, and debuff alot bringing the total raid DPS up. However i think your failing to see how AR makes our dps steady and basically what gives us our dps. Right now I can just see that most brigands are going to be trying to make up for lost dps by spamming everything they have when they are in and thus pulling aggro...... uttt oo.... at least AR doesn't have a hate gain anymore. I am not sure what you are parsing, and what your guildmates parse, but in everysingle parse from guilds on my server usually Brigands are in the top 5 for dps. So saying they are not brought for dps is a lie as well.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Im sorry, but a brigand would never make the top five in one of our raids. Not even pushing 1.5k.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Pulling agro off the tank? Get a better tank. I know for a fact I can spam all of my CAs if I wanted and never pull agro off out MT and thats starting with Dispatch, Rake, Devit and Double Up.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Heres a tip for ya though.. if you do find that you'll have to joust a mob, stab & disembowel it before you joust out so your dps doesnt suffer as big a hit. The nerf to AR sucks, nerfs in general suck, and I can understand you being upset at the change. Like I said, I think turning into a proc is lame, and I would have like to have seen it more in the players control, but its not the end of the world. You'll adapt and move on.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I really don't care that is changing my dps, i really don't care that i have to look for a stupid icon to know if have to joust. I just a spell that i can use, i know my guildmates are going to be able to pick up dps that i am loosing someway or another.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If this isnt an issue, then the AR changes shouldnt be an issue.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Now Ni7r0k, Ive hear alot of crying from you, but I have not heard one thing explaining how changing AR is "breaking" you.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Its breaking me becuase it was the coolest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ability ever! Also our dps will go down and no matter what you say, our debuffs are never going to be up the entire time now. I don't care what mob your if you have to joust it now they are going to have a aoe that will eventually land when your debuffs are expiring, and lets no forget mobs that automatically dispell debuffs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>The fact that it was the "coolest" ablitiy ever is part of the reason its getting nerfed, that and its not needed anymore. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If you cant keep a mob fully debuffed while jousting, Im going to suggest you pick another class. Obviously you have little to no clue on the debuffs, the durations, and the reuse timers... stop spaming CAs as the come up and learn what they do. </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PowertothePeople wrote: <P><BR>No, I'm not saying rangers do all their DPS from range, just 80% of it. You dont have to be within melee range to do decent DPS as a ranger and can AVOID THE AoE which helps the healers out without scarifacing much at all, and if your saying that Brigs can out DPS a ranger at range then you need to get a clue. Now, rangers SHOULD beable to do this because of the class, I have no problem with this.</P> <P>If your casters arent standing at max range during an encounter with AoE and are getting hit with it, then you shouldnt be playing with them.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Do you raid at all? Maybe you just dont raid with rangers? Rangers dont "avoid AEs" and even if we did, this would not help healers. Im sure you've heard of group heals? So unless the whole group is made up of  AE Immune brigand, healers are going to use their group heals.</P> <P>Mind showing me where I said anything at all about brigands out dpsing rangers? Be it ranged or melee? I clearly said that brigs have one crappy ranged attack, but I guess you're just posting to post.</P> <P>If your casters arent making use off all their skills and are standing outside AE range, might I suggest you find other casters to play with.</P>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Harvash wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ff0000">The long and short of this is, AR is needed...nerfing it doesnt just change how we play...but causes EVERYONE to re-evaluate...that just doesnt seem balanced or fair IMHO.</font></p> <p>Thanks for bearing with my long winded story...Play On..</p> <hr></blockquote>I don't think most people really understand how much this is going to lower our dps and the OVERALL raid dps. Even if you say we can debuff while jousting, it is oging to be half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'d.</div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ni7r0kill32 wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> TerriBlades wrote: <p><font color="#ffffcc"></font></p><p><font color="#66ff00">Easy enough, I'll just play like every other class and joust if need be. More then likely I'll never us AR</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff0000">Then they need to give us a new ability so that one of ancient teachings isn't worthless IMHO.</font></font></p><font color="#66ff00">Then get a bow like Sarnak if you want to do 4k every 8s.</font> <p><font color="#ff0000">Why should i change the weapons on have on my toon another time becuase sony can not make up their mind on [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? And your a ranger of course you like bows. Just go back to being a ranger, i bet your better at it.</font></p><font color="#66ff00">Its been said, they are changing the way AEs one shot players. Thats what part of the revamp was about.<font color="#ff0000">I guarentee that aoe's will still own most poeople even with resists, and if this ability is no longer needed then give us a new CA to replace it, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that would make me alot happier then the fubared spell we have now.</font></font><p><font color="#66ff00">Im sorry, but a brigand would never make the top five in one of our raids. Not even pushing 1.5k.</font></p><p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff0000">All I am going to say is 1.5k dps?</font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Pulling agro off the tank? Get a better tank. I know for a fact I can spam all of my CAs if I wanted and never pull agro off out MT and thats starting with Dispatch, Rake, Devit and Double Up.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">I never pull aggro of my tank, he is a great tank however i know for alot of guilds brigands pulling aggro is a huge problem.</font></p><font color="#66ff00">If this isnt an issue, then the AR changes shouldnt be an issue.<font color="#ff0000">I really do not care that my dps is being lowered, even while riad dps being lowered becuase of this i know my guildmates will pick up the slack, but is the fact that it seems instead of bringing more and more to the table each expansion we are bringing less. Also our debuffs do less now, so we are nerfed there to.</font></font> <p>Now Ni7r0k, Ive hear alot of crying from you, but I have not heard one thing explaining how changing AR is "breaking" you.</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Its breaking me becuase it was the coolest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ability ever! Also our dps will go down and no matter what you say, our debuffs are never going to be up the entire time now. I don't care what mob your if you have to joust it now they are going to have a aoe that will eventually land when your debuffs are expiring, and lets no forget mobs that automatically dispell debuffs.</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">The fact that it was the "coolest" ablitiy ever is part of the reason its getting nerfed, that and its not needed anymore. </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">If you cant keep a mob fully debuffed while jousting, Im going to suggest you pick another class. Obviously you have little to no clue on the debuffs, the durations, and the reuse timers... stop spaming CAs as the come up and learn what they do. </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Haha learn2play huh, i bet you are one of those poeple who say rangers are the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and Coorslander is the perfect mob for you and thats all you need when assasins out dps you all the time. I don't care who you are how good of a god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranger you are a good assasin will out dps you. I really find it funy your telling me this when obviously you do not realize how big of a nerf this is, maybe you have never seen parses to look at how often your short recast debuffs are hitting. Let me ask you, Have you ever? do you know how to read a parse? </font></p></blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ni7r0kill32 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote: <P><BR><FONT color=#ffffcc></FONT></P><BR> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Easy enough, I'll just play like every other class and joust if need be. More then likely I'll never us AR</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ff0000>Then they need to give us a new ability so that one of ancient teachings isn't worthless IMHO.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#0033ff>Why should they do this? Stream of Arrows, and Thorny Trap were both changed for rangers making them just as useless an ancient teaching as AR is going to be for Brigands.</FONT><BR></FONT></P><FONT color=#66ff00>Then get a bow like Sarnak if you want to do 4k every 8s.</FONT><BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Why should i change the weapons on have on my toon another time becuase sony can not make up their mind on [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? And your a ranger of course you like bows. Just go back to being a ranger, i bet your better at it.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>While you shouldnt have to, but you are the one that brought up how much damage a plate tank could do with a bow. If you like the damage from the bow, use it. Otherwise stop dragging other classes into this.</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Its been said, they are changing the way AEs one shot players. Thats what part of the revamp was about.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I guarentee that aoe's will still own most poeople even with resists, and if this ability is no longer needed then give us a new CA to replace it, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that would make me alot happier then the fubared spell we have now.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#0033ff>Whaaaa, you'll have to spend DKP on resist gear now, and you might have to joust an AE here and there. Get over it.</FONT><BR></FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Im sorry, but a brigand would never make the top five in one of our raids. Not even pushing 1.5k.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ff0000>All I am going to say is 1.5k dps?</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#0033ff>What? Cant pull those kinda numbers? Or are you just more uber then 99% of the rest of the brigands? That was an average.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Pulling agro off the tank? Get a better tank. I know for a fact I can spam all of my CAs if I wanted and never pull agro off out MT and thats starting with Dispatch, Rake, Devit and Double Up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I never pull aggro of my tank, he is a great tank however i know for alot of guilds brigands pulling aggro is a huge problem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0066ff>Funny, thats not what you said before.</FONT><BR></P><FONT color=#66ff00>If this isnt an issue, then the AR changes shouldnt be an issue.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I really do not care that my dps is being lowered, even while riad dps being lowered becuase of this i know my guildmates will pick up the slack, but is the fact that it seems instead of bringing more and more to the table each expansion we are bringing less. Also our debuffs do less now, so we are nerfed there to.</FONT><BR></FONT> <P><FONT color=#0066ff>Again, if this is true, then there shouldnt be an issue with the AR change.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Its breaking me becuase it was the coolest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ability ever! Also our dps will go down and no matter what you say, our debuffs are never going to be up the entire time now. I don't care what mob your if you have to joust it now they are going to have a aoe that will eventually land when your debuffs are expiring, and lets no forget mobs that automatically dispell debuffs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>The fact that it was the "coolest" ablitiy ever is part of the reason its getting nerfed, that and its not needed anymore. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If you cant keep a mob fully debuffed while jousting, Im going to suggest you pick another class. Obviously you have little to no clue on the debuffs, the durations, and the reuse timers... stop spaming CAs as the come up and learn what they do.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Haha learn2play huh, i bet you are one of those poeple who say rangers are the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and Coorslander is the perfect mob for you and thats all you need when assasins out dps you all the time. I don't care who you are how good of a god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranger you are a good assasin will out dps you. I really find it funy your telling me this when obviously you do not realize how big of a nerf this is, maybe you have never seen parses to look at how often your short recast debuffs are hitting. Let me ask you, Have you ever? do you know how to read a parse? </FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>This just further proves my point, that you know very little about the game. Again, stop dragging other classes into this, unless of course thats some shifty way to avoid the fact that you dont have a case you can win. I dont recall saying anything about rangers, assassins or the Corslander (which is a joke by the way). </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>You stated that you couldnt keep a mob fully debuffed and joust. I know for a fact that you can. If you dont believe that, then you dont know what you are doing. Thats cut and dry. But hey, just keep trying, maybe you can insult a few more classes on your quest to undo the nerf.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Urza]

<DIV>Okay brigs if you dont like your class please leave.   If you wanted to dps play a Necro/Assasin.  YOU ARE NOT A DPS.  Your sole job is to dispatch the mobs expecially orange ones so debuffs can land easier.  YOU ARE THE DEBUFFER of the game.  Instead of being a buff bot like bards you are a debuffer so get over it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change your class if you dont like it PERIOD.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV>

[Magus_Bl]

<DIV>Not much up there for good argument... but I'm digging the color scheme. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><blockquote><div><blockquote> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ni7r0kill32 wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> TerriBlades wrote: <p><font color="#ffffcc"></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Easy enough, I'll just play like every other class and joust if need be. More then likely I'll never us AR</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff0000">Then they need to give us a new ability so that one of ancient teachings isn't worthless IMHO.</font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#0033ff">Why should they do this? Stream of Arrows, and Thorny Trap were both changed for rangers making them just as useless an ancient teaching as AR is going to be for Brigands.</font></font></p><p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#cccc33">What happened to not bringing other classes into this? Also why should each acient teaching get nerfed, and most have not been nerfed to the point where they are useless</font></font></p><font color="#66ff00">Then get a bow like Sarnak if you want to do 4k every 8s.</font> <p><font color="#ff0000">Why should i change the weapons on have on my toon another time becuase sony can not make up their mind on [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? And your a ranger of course you like bows. Just go back to being a ranger, i bet your better at it.</font></p><font color="#ff0000"></font></blockquote> <blockquote><font color="#0000ff"></font> <p><font color="#0033ff">While you shouldnt have to, but you are the one that brought up how much damage a plate tank could do with a bow. If you like the damage from the bow, use it. Otherwise stop dragging other classes into this.</font></p><p><font color="#ccff00">while i shouldn't have to is the key  there.</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Its been said, they are changing the way AEs one shot players. Thats what part of the revamp was about.<font color="#ff0000">I guarentee that aoe's will still own most poeople even with resists, and if this ability is no longer needed then give us a new CA to replace it, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that would make me alot happier then the fubared spell we have now.</font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#0033ff">Whaaaa, you'll have to spend DKP on resist gear now, and you might have to joust an AE here and there. Get over it.</font></font></p><p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ccff00">OMG not my dkp, that really doesn't bother me considering most gear i have i can buff whatever i resist i want so, ya, gg on that one.</font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Im sorry, but a brigand would never make the top five in one of our raids. Not even pushing 1.5k.</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ff0000">All I am going to say is 1.5k dps?</font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#0033ff">What? Cant pull those kinda numbers? Or are you just more uber then 99% of the rest of the brigands? That was an average.</font></font></p><p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ccff00">Again 1.5k is high for your number 5 person?</font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">Pulling agro off the tank? Get a better tank. I know for a fact I can spam all of my CAs if I wanted and never pull agro off out MT and thats starting with Dispatch, Rake, Devit and Double Up.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">I never pull aggro of my tank, he is a great tank however i know for alot of guilds brigands pulling aggro is a huge problem.</font></p> <p><font color="#0066ff">Funny, thats not what you said before.</font></p><p><font color="#ccff00">Once again never once said i had a problem pulling aggro, however alot brigs do.</font></p><font color="#66ff00">If this isnt an issue, then the AR changes shouldnt be an issue.<font color="#ff0000">I really do not care that my dps is being lowered, even while riad dps being lowered becuase of this i know my guildmates will pick up the slack, but is the fact that it seems instead of bringing more and more to the table each expansion we are bringing less. Also our debuffs do less now, so we are nerfed there to.</font></font> <p><font color="#0066ff">Again, if this is true, then there shouldnt be an issue with the AR change.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff"><font color="#ccff00">so you enjoy being less use to each raid you go on?</font></font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Its breaking me becuase it was the coolest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ability ever! Also our dps will go down and no matter what you say, our debuffs are never going to be up the entire time now. I don't care what mob your if you have to joust it now they are going to have a aoe that will eventually land when your debuffs are expiring, and lets no forget mobs that automatically dispell debuffs.</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">The fact that it was the "coolest" ablitiy ever is part of the reason its getting nerfed, that and its not needed anymore. </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">If you cant keep a mob fully debuffed while jousting, Im going to suggest you pick another class. Obviously you have little to no clue on the debuffs, the durations, and the reuse timers... stop spaming CAs as the come up and learn what they do.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Haha learn2play huh, i bet you are one of those poeple who say rangers are the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and Coorslander is the perfect mob for you and thats all you need when assasins out dps you all the time. I don't care who you are how good of a god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranger you are a good assasin will out dps you. I really find it funy your telling me this when obviously you do not realize how big of a nerf this is, maybe you have never seen parses to look at how often your short recast debuffs are hitting. Let me ask you, Have you ever? do you know how to read a parse? </font></p> <p><font color="#0033ff">This just further proves my point, that you know very little about the game. Again, stop dragging other classes into this, unless of course thats some shifty way to avoid the fact that you dont have a case you can win. I dont recall saying anything about rangers, assassins or the Corslander (which is a joke by the way).</font></p><p><font color="#0033ff"><font color="#ccff00">Becuase I was serious about that?</font> </font></p> <p><font color="#0033ff">You stated that you couldnt keep a mob fully debuffed and joust. I know for a fact that you can. If you dont believe that, then you dont know what you are doing. Thats cut and dry. But hey, just keep trying, maybe you can insult a few more classes on your quest to undo the nerf.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00">Again, there is going to be time that becuase of jousting the mob will not be debuffed the entire time.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00">I would not have a problem with this change, Them lowering our dps, or just lowering our debuffs but doing all 3 at once is a kick in the balls x3. However its ok becuase you enjoy being gimped and having your class nerfed</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div>

[DaLurk]

<div></div><img src="http://static.flickr.com/54/115032488_80d3131b52_m.jpg">Join us chatting on Brigand Forum ! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

This game is just [Removed for Content] me off more and more each time I play it, i don't roll a class that i like to play to 3 months and then have to find a new class. And ya,,, the color scheme shall continue foREVEr<div></div>

[jarnpraetor]

<DIV>IF the change to AR was what is written in the spell description, it might not be all bad. But it's not. It's supposed to have a 15% chance to proc off CA's, but what it actually does is 15% proc, that only procs off CA's. So since most CA's are 0.5 second cast, it has a 2.5% chance to proc for every CA you cast. It goes off about once every 3 or 4 minutes in my testing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Scarrlette]

Deep breaths everyone. There is some good discussion in this thread so I'd hate to close it based on a few heated posts. Settle down and post constructively.

[rsparrowk]

<div></div><div></div>Wow, I hadn't realized the NDA was lifted so i wasn't even looking out for this, but here's my 2cp.1)AR in its current form on beta simply doesn't proc reliably.  Blame the broken proc mechanics if you want, but its currently unusable.  On a typical 4 minute boss fight AR proc'd once for me and didn't even cause me to avoid an AE.  I checked with our other 2 guild brigands and their experience is the same.2)Those of you that think you won't be getting 1 shotted with the new AE mechanics are simply wrong.  I took cheldrak's AE for 11k with 7k resists.  Sure with new gear you'll have a bit more HP, but if you think you and your healers can sustain 11k hits, you are sadly mistaken.  Our guild WW 2nded chel'drak and we always 1st pull him on live, im too embarrassed to say what we were able to get him to in beta...lets just say it caught us a little off guard.  We didn't even attempt matron.  3)Those of you who think it will not effect your dps and more importantly your ability to keep your low duration debuffs on the mob simply haven't played other melee dps classes, or realized how many mobs have annoying ae stun/knockback abilities.  I've seen a reduction of around 100-300 RELATIVE dps depending on the encounter (i.e. my dps in relation to other classes)...with a few exceptions.  And I'm not talking about trash fights, but lets be honest, no one builds raids around trash fights.  Raid slots are given based on boss mob performance.  Trust me getting 1 shotted by an AE really hurts your dps potential.  4)For those of you that think we still bring good debuffs to the raid.  I've got news for you...with the changes to the mitigation curves word on the street is its much easier to hit the point of diminishing returns on -mitigation without dispatch.  When I get a chance I'm going to crunch the numbers from our beta parses to verify the hearsay that dispatch is less effective.  But the usefulness of multiple brigands on raids appears to have been greatly diminished.  (both because of mitigation changes and because of the AR nerf)All of the suggestions listed here and more have been suggested as changes to AR to at least make it viable.  Every beta patch it seems some good changes go in, I know a lot of casters, healers, and a few tank classes are stoked on EoF.  I'm secretly hoping that the dev's simply haven't gotten to the 7 page thread with good, balanced AR suggestions on the beta boards.I also don't really agree with you Innocent of FoH. I've done all the same raids you have in EoF and I fail to see how AR would be super overpowering in those situations.  Especially considering other classes are getting AE avoidance abilities...I really think they could strike a balance with some sort of activatable skill, increased penalty on the skill in its current form, or significant upgrade to the proc % on AR.If they don't intend for AR to be up often the proc should proc group AE avoidance to add some more group utility to the brigand class so multiple brigands are still desirable on raids.<div></div><p>Message Edited by rsparrowk on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>First off we only started getting ubber debuffs come LU13.  I didn't roll my brigand to be a debuffing class, that was an extra bonus from the revamp when we got a lot of debuffing abilities.  There's nothing written in stone saying we're a debuffing class and have to stay that way.  What we are is a scout class.  As in a dps class.  That's truly what we are at heart. </P> <P>That's not to say we should be outdpsing assassins and rangers (but I sometimes do) but we should be a T2 dps class.  Our hope is that from aoes you won't have to joust them.  It will be just like Labs, Lycaeum, HoS and DT now where jousting isn't needed.  In that case our dps won't suffer and I'm fine with the change.  Just put on a little resist gear and I'm gtg with the only drawback being we can't equip as many proc items and acrylia rings.</P> <P>On the other hand there's AoEs like Matron or Chel'drak.  If these AoEs get cut and pasted onto mobs in the expansion we're going to get hit with a big dps nurf.  Look at swashbucklers for a comparison to how we'll be fairing.  Over 50% of my dps is autoattack, if we have to joust we aren't like assassins that can get those big CAs off and run out.  Our DPS is limited to how long we can beat on a mob so jousting will PLUMMET our dps.  This is my main concern.</P> <P>It also doesn't have to be limited to this expansion.  It can be on any expansion or A pack where if we have to joust we're going to be the suck and best of left on the sidelines EVEN with our good debuffs.</P>

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urza69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Okay brigs if you dont like your class please leave.   If you wanted to dps play a Necro/Assasin.  YOU ARE NOT A DPS.  Your sole job is to dispatch the mobs expecially orange ones so debuffs can land easier.  YOU ARE THE DEBUFFER of the game.  Instead of being a buff bot like bards you are a debuffer so get over it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change your class if you dont like it PERIOD.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL, I'm not sure what game you're playing.  I guess you're just a tank, maybe SOE should remove all the zerker DPS AAs, offensive stance, etc.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[PowertothePeople]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sobek_eq2 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urza69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Okay brigs if you dont like your class please leave.   If you wanted to dps play a Necro/Assasin.  YOU ARE NOT A DPS.  Your sole job is to dispatch the mobs expecially orange ones so debuffs can land easier.  YOU ARE THE DEBUFFER of the game.  Instead of being a buff bot like bards you are a debuffer so get over it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change your class if you dont like it PERIOD.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL, I'm not sure what game you're playing.  I guess you're just a tank, maybe SOE should remove all the zerker DPS AAs, offensive stance, etc.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How are we not DPS, we are suppose to be T2 DPS, yes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s are suppose to out DPS us, but according to SOE necro's are suppose to be T2 DPS also. ATM, necro's are T1 DPS out doing wiz/warlocks go to their boards and post why are you even here.

[Iad]

<div></div>I think we can all agree AR is completely useless, now give us a fix please.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Iad on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 AM</span>

[Carna]

<P>It's experiencing changes like these through EQ1 that has large numbers of people in the gaming community sworn never to touch an SOE product, and is why EQ2 never reached the market dominance it was expected to.</P> <P>It boggles the mind.</P>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>rsparrowk wrote:<div></div><div></div>Wow, I hadn't realized the NDA was lifted so i wasn't even looking out for this, but here's my 2cp.1)AR in its current form on beta simply doesn't proc reliably.  Blame the broken proc mechanics if you want, but its currently unusable.  On a typical 4 minute boss fight AR proc'd once for me and didn't even cause me to avoid an AE.  I checked with our other 2 guild brigands and their experience is the same.2)Those of you that think you won't be getting 1 shotted with the new AE mechanics are simply wrong.  I took cheldrak's AE for 11k with 7k resists.  Sure with new gear you'll have a bit more HP, but if you think you and your healers can sustain 11k hits, you are sadly mistaken.  Our guild WW 2nded chel'drak and we always 1st pull him on live, im too embarrassed to say what we were able to get him to in beta...lets just say it caught us a little off guard.  We didn't even attempt matron.  <font color="#ff0000">well... ahem... so, i don't know how good the eof gear is... but unless it's far better than kos the new AE mechanics sound bad from your description.</font>3)Those of you who think it will not effect your dps and more importantly your ability to keep your low duration debuffs on the mob simply haven't played other melee dps classes, or realized how many mobs have annoying ae stun/knockback abilities.  I've seen a reduction of around 100-300 RELATIVE dps depending on the encounter (i.e. my dps in relation to other classes)...with a few exceptions.  And I'm not talking about trash fights, but lets be honest, no one builds raids around trash fights.  Raid slots are given based on boss mob performance.  Trust me getting 1 shotted by an AE really hurts your dps potential.  <font color="#ff0000">not only your reduction in dps... our brigand is not always online so i know that the difference between a raid with and without a brigand is big.</font>4)For those of you that think we still bring good debuffs to the raid.  I've got news for you...with the changes to the mitigation curves word on the street is its much easier to hit the point of diminishing returns on -mitigation without dispatch.  When I get a chance I'm going to crunch the numbers from our beta parses to verify the hearsay that dispatch is less effective.  But the usefulness of multiple brigands on raids appears to have been greatly diminished.  (both because of mitigation changes and because of the AR nerf)<font color="#ff0000">i think they should change mitigation (and also resists) debuffs to have a bigger effect the higher the mitigation (resist) in question is. example with made up numbers:reduces the target's mitigation by 5000 if target's mitigation 8500 or higher.reduces the target's mitigation by 4000 if target's mitigation 7500 or higher.reduces the target's mitigation by 3000 if target's mitigation 6500 or higher.reduces the target's mitigation by 1750 if target's mitigation 1 or higher.lets not discuss if with those made up numbers the ability would be overpowered or not.... i just made them up to show how debbuff's for mitigation and (resists) should get changed to counter the new combat mechanis with extreme high mitigation and resists numbers.</font>All of the suggestions listed here and more have been suggested as changes to AR to at least make it viable.  Every beta patch it seems some good changes go in, I know a lot of casters, healers, and a few tank classes are stoked on EoF.  I'm secretly hoping that the dev's simply haven't gotten to the 7 page thread with good, balanced AR suggestions on the beta boards.I also don't really agree with you Innocent of FoH. I've done all the same raids you have in EoF and I fail to see how AR would be super overpowering in those situations.  Especially considering other classes are getting AE avoidance abilities...I really think they could strike a balance with some sort of activatable skill, increased penalty on the skill in its current form, or significant upgrade to the proc % on AR.<font color="#ff0000">make it activatable with a duration of lets say 1 min or something along that line....</font>If they don't intend for AR to be up often the proc should proc group AE avoidance to add some more group utility to the brigand class so multiple brigands are still desirable on raids.<font color="#ff0000">even if it would be group wide they would still need to up the procrate on it.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by rsparrowk on <span class="date_text">11-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urza69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Okay brigs if you dont like your class please leave.   If you wanted to dps play a Necro/Assasin.  YOU ARE NOT A DPS.  Your sole job is to dispatch the mobs expecially orange ones so debuffs can land easier.  YOU ARE THE DEBUFFER of the game.  Instead of being a buff bot like bards you are a debuffer so get over it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change your class if you dont like it PERIOD.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Please nerf destruction and open wounds.</P> <P> </P> <P>kk thx</P>

[Bhronn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>I also don't really agree with you Innocent of FoH. I've done all the same raids you have in EoF and I fail to see how AR would be super overpowering in those situations.  Especially considering other classes are getting AE avoidance abilities...I really think they could strike a balance with some sort of activatable skill, increased penalty on the skill in its current form, or significant upgrade to the proc % on AR.<div></div><p>Message Edited by rsparrowk on <span class="date_text">11-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Ya bro Im not saying the AR change didnt hurt us. Ive also reported a 100 to 400 dps drop depending on the encounter  and I have also posted the drop in dispatch performance. The dispatch drop is due to the fact that not only did the skill get lowered in total mitigation but with a diminishing return system, the mitigation value means less. Example:  It now takes 2 classes to use mitigation lowering skills to reach the same "effectiveness" of live. On the bright side tho, I cant prove it other than to say the raid did more total dps at the end but it might seem that dispatch is stacking now. That might be the bone everyone is looking for. Im not for certain tho  and me and soryn are testing it further . On the reasons about why its nerfed to begin with we can all just hypothosize. So heres mine. Take eq2 and the way its made. This also can be said about group content. A raid has 24 slots. They made eq2 this way so that devs could design encounters that would not be a zerg fest and it made making those encounters easier to "script". Now each encounter is "basically" designed around a mix of players with 1 or 2 differences depending on a mob. but all in all each encounter in the game can be done by the same raid makeup. The problem arose when guildes decided to change that status quo and bring 5 brigs to an encounter. We can all agree that that was weak sauce but the fact of the matter is Devs saw a future where that might get even worse. Follow me so far? What if  at some point guilds were switching out players for each encounter to maximize the talents of 1 class. Example: At matron they brung 5 "or more" brigs and killed it. The raid then heads to eof where they take on Tunarie and they swap the brigs out for 5 or more wizards. The point is those 24 slots would become a vending machine where they are filled only by the class who can "best" defeat the mob. I know there isnt a person here who would want that to happen. Sadely tho brigs were the 1st "case" of it happening to and as such we got the bat. But you can rest assured that were another class somehow be in the same position they also would get the bat. Its about game balance not the brigs in general. Raid spots are hard enough to come by  without  guilds filling 1/4 of it with 1 class.I'm personally counting on the toggle idea i posted 4 weeks ago and continue to support.edit: When I first got into beta and looked at the changes I was pretty insanely [Removed for Content]. but over time and working directly with the devs I came to understand that these guys are doing the best that they can. They arent nerfing AR just to [Removed for Content] people off. As stated above they are trying to keep the game balanced on a whole. That doesnt mean I agree with them on everything but my mind changed when several devs contacted me in game and on these boards and we went specifically to test some changes. The beta has changed drastically since it started with huge amounts of good feedback by everyone. AR curently isnt proccing because of the changes to the proc mechanics. When you change 1 system that sometimes changes how another system works and they are working looooong hours to come up with a fix.InnocentFoH</div><p>Message Edited by Bhronn on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:39 AM</span>

[DaLurk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bhronn wrote:<div>... but over time and working directly with the devs I came to understand that these guys are doing the best that they can...</div><hr></blockquote>That's a problem.Why devs are working with ubber raiding guild only ?I mean ... I'm not a full time raider, but my monthly payment is worthing the same as a FoH member, a buck is a buck.I left EQ1 with 400 days played (not too much, but it's not peanuts), I started eq2 on Beta, and rolled my brigand on first week of eq2 and never left it.But I never had the pleasure to work with "devs".And I've never been in a top hardcore high-end raiding guild.I mean ... there are several guild style, and modifying game and class mechanics because a small part of playerbase is exploiting them is just a slap in the face to the other huge percentage of non-raiding players.I guess one day I'll try Matron with my guild, maybe in monthes or year. But I'm sure we won't be able to fill raid slots with 4 or 5 brigands.</div>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Thanks for the post Innocent; it does kinda make sense as to why the devs decided to destroy Amazing reflexes BUT , as you stated it is most likely weaksauce guilds who used 5 brigs on matron, <EM>however </EM>just because you take 5 brigs to the matron doesnt by any means mean you are going to be successful in killing it. You still need a good raid force to take her down, so it somewhat negates the argument in some ways.</P> <P>If this was their worry, then why not put AR on a timer, with a recast timer. In that way it would be a less painful solution. The AR timer would mean weaksauce guilds couldnt roll over raid mobs with 5+ brigands and we would still be able to get close to the dps we are doing now</P> <P>I have heard a lot of people on here saying that destroying AR will not affect how dps much, well lets imagine this....</P> <P>Raid mob <x> - has a devastating aoe every minute say</P> <P>So with no AR we will be jousting - fair enough with all the other melee bla bla...and ranging </P> <P>Now imagine this fight takes 6 minutes, our dps compared to swashies and assassins, given their burst damage, will be a joke.</P> <P>Worse still , if you are unlucky enough not to be in a group with a dirge or swash with their AOE immunity (unreal) then the difference between our dps will be huge</P> <P>If AR is so overpowered and the game cant survive with it in, then fair enough, i can live with that ... but please consider putting it on a timer OR boosting our dps / lowering recast timers so we can at least maintain some kind of balance with in particular swashies.</P> <P>Also this can ONLY mean that EOF is going to be huge AOE based; as the current content stands only the matron and chel are joust mobs, so the change in AR will NOT affect any of the other encounters, as long as we get resist gear...so that means to me whats the point ?</P> <P>As far as i am aware Brigands only became the spotlight of peoples hate and jealousy over the matron encounter (you can kill chel without one if needed) which seems kinda sad to be honest.</P> <P>Just my views</P> <P>peace</P> <P>ps. wtb moonstones and lf level 70 jeweler pst <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Shidonya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urza69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Okay brigs if you dont like your class please leave.   If you wanted to dps play a Necro/Assasin.  YOU ARE NOT A DPS.  Your sole job is to dispatch the mobs expecially orange ones so debuffs can land easier.  YOU ARE THE DEBUFFER of the game.  Instead of being a buff bot like bards you are a debuffer so get over it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change your class if you dont like it PERIOD.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Okay it is tiresome to see other classes come here and explain how this will effect us but this dude just [Removed for Content] me off READ THE F'IN DESCRIPTION OF A SCOUT YOU F'TAARD! When I rolled a brigand back on day one of eq2 I didn't debuff I dps'd dork. I'm sorry but this really [Removed for Content] me off. Shut your pie hole Meatshield.<p>Message Edited by Shidonya on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 AM</span>

[DrHajj]

I think a name change to "Mediocre Reflexes" might be in order.- Hajj<div></div>

[DaLurk]

Be honnest, the right name is "Random Reflexes".<div></div>

[Bhronn]

<div><blockquote><hr>DaLurker wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Bhronn wrote:<div>... but over time and working directly with the devs I came to understand that these guys are doing the best that they can...</div><hr></blockquote>That's a problem.Why devs are working with ubber raiding guild only ?I mean ... I'm not a full time raider, but my monthly payment is worthing the same as a FoH member, a buck is a buck.I left EQ1 with 400 days played (not too much, but it's not peanuts), I started eq2 on Beta, and rolled my brigand on first week of eq2 and never left it.But I never had the pleasure to work with "devs".And I've never been in a top hardcore high-end raiding guild.I mean ... there are several guild style, and modifying game and class mechanics because a small part of playerbase is exploiting them is just a slap in the face to the other huge percentage of non-raiding players.I guess one day I'll try Matron with my guild, maybe in monthes or year. But I'm sure we won't be able to fill raid slots with 4 or 5 brigands.</div><hr></blockquote> Man your kidding right? You think its because im in FoH that I got to work with devs?  Maybe is it conceiveable that i got to do it because I made posts on the subject and quite possible sent in over 500 feedbacks if not more? You think it might be that it was because I committed vast hours away from regular play to be on beta. Do you think that maybe just maybe I have the class as a whole best interests at heart and not just the raiding aspect? And last but not least do you think I am the only player the devs worked with?  Sir you are sadely mistaken and maybe I came off as tooting my own horn but i am certainly not the only brig who got to work alongside the devs or as far as thats concerned not the only player. My posts were to point out that regardless how you look at it, the current AR was abused and without a change that abuse could go on and get worse. But again thats  my hypothesis. not fact. I dont want to see the day 1 class is filling a raid totally above any other class, and thats what would happen. Why take a swashy,bruiser,zerk,monk,assassin, and a couple other classes to a raid when you can replace them with brigs easily. none of those dps classes add to the raid above and beyond a brig and we got the ability to take less dmg and thereby take less healing than those classes.Do I like the change ? Nope. But I can look and realize that  "a" change was necessary.</div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

From the begining I was like whatever, it was being exploited and thus was going to be nerfed. However they have taken it to far, the randomness of it is our of our control, the rate at which it procs is far to low. Thus making this ability worthless, as I said before, the proc on AR is not going to work, we need to have it a temp buff for 30 seconds like ever 1.5-3 minutes like most high end raiding brigands have agreed.<div></div>

[Torran]

<blockquote><hr>Bhronn wrote:<div>Do I like the change ? Nope. But I can look and realize that  "a" change was necessary.</div><hr></blockquote>I'm not intending to say one way or the other if it "needed" to be changed, but one thing that bugged me is that they did just that, made "a" change. There has been no real attempt in beta to look at alternatives or listen to feedback. It was just changed to the point of being useless.Two things could have gone better with this change. One is that a developer (not a player) should have responded with a good explanation of why it needed to be changed. Second, developer(s) should have replied to the alternatives presented to say "This wouldn't work because of X, and Y means you can't do this either. Z would be too difficult to implement" - something along those lines.I can live without AR - not happily but I will continue to play my brigand. The lack of feedback from developers and the lack of consideration for player feedback is what really hurts.

[Urza]

<P>If you guys are a DPS class then why does Wiz/necro/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/Conj/ and some times Zerkers out dps you..  Also why does every RAID guild say without a brigs dispatch there is no point even attempting an orange mob.</P> <P>I bet if you did not have DISPATCH every guild would have you replaced with one of the upper classes since you cant even touch there dps.  </P> <P>Also AR is better as a proc rather then ability due to you can avoid aoes more then once a fight if it procs.</P> <P>So here is a situation AR suppose to proc what 1.8ppm and on chel drake that what like 6-8 min fight.  So that is about 12 or so procs per fight.......And if it is not up before AOE get the F out lol.  But if you get AOE immunity 10 secs every like 5 min or even 3 min that what 3 per fight.</P> <P>So which you rather???</P> <P>Think out side the box please. </P> <P>Also your not a dps class......your a debuffer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since LU13</P> <P>L8er Tuppo</P> <P>70Berserker of Nagafen</P> <P>Havoc</P>

[Bhronn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Torran wrote:<blockquote><hr>Bhronn wrote:<div>Do I like the change ? Nope. But I can look and realize that  "a" change was necessary.</div><hr></blockquote>I'm not intending to say one way or the other if it "needed" to be changed, but one thing that bugged me is that they did just that, made "a" change. There has been no real attempt in beta to look at alternatives or listen to feedback. It was just changed to the point of being useless.Two things could have gone better with this change. One is that a developer (not a player) should have responded with a good explanation of why it needed to be changed. Second, developer(s) should have replied to the alternatives presented to say "This wouldn't work because of X, and Y means you can't do this either. Z would be too difficult to implement" - something along those lines.I can live without AR - not happily but I will continue to play my brigand. The lack of feedback from developers and the lack of consideration for player feedback is what really hurts.<hr></blockquote> Again sir you are misinformed. The current AR is better than it was 5 weeks ago. Its not AR that is the problem but the proc mechanic in the game that is the problem why it isnt proccing. AR has undergone several changes so far and itll continue to do so. And as far a a deeloper responding, the lead developer DID respond and he said that AR was given to brigs to keep them from being 1 shotted by AE's while they were debuffing. Since the combat changes have made aes not able to one shot kil us then there was no need to keep it in current form. That was the lead developers comment. Currently mobs in every zone are being tuned to meet the combat changes.</div>

[Bhronn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div></div> <p>If you guys are a DPS class then why does Wiz/necro/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/Conj/ and some times Zerkers out dps you..  Also why does every RAID guild say without a brigs dispatch there is no point even attempting an orange mob.</p> <p>I bet if you did not have DISPATCH every guild would have you replaced with one of the upper classes since you cant even touch there dps.  </p> <p>Also AR is better as a proc rather then ability due to you can avoid aoes more then once a fight if it procs.</p> <p>So here is a situation AR suppose to proc what 1.8ppm and on chel drake that what like 6-8 min fight.  So that is about 12 or so procs per fight.......And if it is not up before AOE get the F out lol.  But if you get AOE immunity 10 secs every like 5 min or even 3 min that what 3 per fight.</p> <p>So which you rather???</p> <p>Think out side the box please. </p> <p>Also your not a dps class......your a debuffer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since LU13</p> <p>L8er Tuppo</p> <p>70Berserker of Nagafen</p> <p>Havoc</p><hr></blockquote>They shouldnt let stupid people post. yes I am attacking you.</div>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>Torran wrote:I'm not intending to say one way or the other if it "needed" to be changed, but one thing that bugged me is that they did just that, made "a" change. There has been no real attempt in beta to look at alternatives or listen to feedback. It was just changed to the point of being useless.Two things could have gone better with this change. One is that a developer (not a player) should have responded with a good explanation of why it needed to be changed. Second, developer(s) should have replied to the alternatives presented to say "This wouldn't work because of X, and Y means you can't do this either. Z would be too difficult to implement" - something along those lines.I can live without AR - not happily but I will continue to play my brigand. The lack of feedback from developers and the lack of consideration for player feedback is what really hurts.<hr></blockquote>There has been some developer feedback on this issue. I'll quote these without modification so no-one will accuse me doing out of context quoting:---I'm going to watch how the new Amazing Reflexes performs in my personal raiding experience and from actual tested feedback (and not speculation), and I will make any adjustments if they are needed.-Lockeye, 20061013 04:35 PM Mountain Time.------As a preface: I'd prefer that any personal attacks within this thread stop now. Those are neither constructive, nor welcome.Changes within the spells and abilities of the game are always done for a specific reason. The original intent for Amazing Reflexes was to give some survivability to brigands who needed to get close to a mob in order to do their damage and apply their debuffs. Given the recent changes to the combat system the original intent of Amazing Reflexes becomes less valid. These extemely high damage AE's that could one shot kill or nearly kill a brigand (or non tank class) have been lessened in most cases.This is not to say we will definitely keep Amazing Reflexes in its current form on Beta. It may change before the expansion releases if during testing its found to be better suited in some other implementation. I'd like to make it clear that we will continue to tune the game to adjust to the changes in the system. The mobs and challenges have been changing too, and everything has to be taken as a complete package.The upcoming proc changes may also help with the frequency of this ability triggering.-Dymus, 20061017 11:22pm Mountain Time------I'll be explaining the proc changes once they are in a more final form and internal testing is finished on them. Doing so before then would only cause confusion if the idea or implementation changes before it makes it to Beta.As for other abilities changing, that is a distinct possibility if they need to change in order to fall in line with their intent in the current combat system. Feel free to post or submit feedback in game, I assure you it will be considered (more so if it is well thought out and leaves the abuse out of the text).-Dymus, 20061018 12:56pm Mountain Time------With the next update to Beta the proc mechanics for most items will be changing.DisplayThe display is a "work in progress", expect it to go through a few iterations until we get it to a point where it's a little less verbose and makes a bit more sense in most cases.The display for most item procs will now read: "On a successful trigger this spell has a chance to cast X."There are also other modified descriptions which can read: "On a successful trigger this spell has a lower / higher than normal chance to cast X."Proc RateItems that proc from Physical Triggers: The proc rate for triggers such as successful attack, melee attack, or ranged attack can be calculated by taking the delay of the weapon and multiplying it by 3.Example: A 1.5 delay weapon which reads "Has a chance to cast X." will have a 4.5% chance to proc with each trigger condition. A 5 delay weapon with the same effect would have a 15% chance to proc with each trigger condition. This is still a normalized value, but it's the reverse of what we've done previously. Instead of dividing by delays under the normalized 3 second value, we are multiplying by it. Our typical proc rate has moved up from 5% to 9%.Items that proc from Spell Triggers: The proc rate for triggers such as hostile spell or beneficial spell can be calculated by taking the cast time of the spell plus the 0.5 second recovery time then multiplying it by 3.Example: A 3 second delay spell which reads "Has a chance to cast X." will have a 10.5% chance to proc with each trigger condition. (3 second cast time + 0.5 second recovery time * 3 = 10.5).Combat Arts: The proc rate for combat arts works similar to spells. Since combat arts nearly always have a cast time of 0.5 seconds and a recovery time of 0.5 seconds they are treated as if you are using a 1 delay weapon. Combat arts will trigger a proc 3% of the time from anything that reads "Has a chance to cast X." Combat arts will trigger procs from attack, melee attack, ranged attack, and combat art usage triggers.This is a general increase across the board for most item procs. In terms of an average the prior normalization typically calculated the number 1.0 procs per minute. The new mechanic raises this value to an average of 1.8 procs per minute. Given the speed of our combat this should see more procs per fight on average for anything which had a lower than 9% chance to proc in the previous system.Message Edited by Dymus on 10-20-2006 10:47 AM---Gnome Comments:Unfortunately, as has been pointed out (and this is subject to change) the current proc mechanic for Amazing Reflexes being based on Combat Arts provides us with an extremely low proc rate. Obviously, opinions vary as to the value of such a low proc rate. For myself, I will not consciously place my characters life in the hands of random chance. I'd rather use ranged auto attack than use AR in it's current form. IMO, riding the razors edge of stealing aggro from the MT requires skill. Jousting? Heh... No, not so much. Is that a biased opinion? You bet. What did you expect? You want me to be happy they're taking away an awesome ability that's been in game for 14 months?However, EOF has not released, and maybe all the flailing will draw some developer attention to the issue. /shrugAnd why the Brell is a Berserker talking like he plays a Brigand? That's hilarious. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I thought Berserkers had their own forums? Maybe they're too hard to find when you're reading with a plate helm on, eh?

[Deeds]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urza69 wrote:<BR> <P>If you guys are a DPS class then why does Wiz/necro/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/Conj/ <STRONG>and some times Zerkers out dps you</STRONG>..  Also why does every RAID guild say without a brigs dispatch there is no point even attempting an orange mob.</P> <P>I bet if you did not have DISPATCH every guild would have you replaced with one of the upper classes since you cant even touch there dps.  </P> <P>Also AR is better as a proc rather then ability due to you can avoid aoes more then once a fight if it procs.</P> <P>So here is a situation AR suppose to proc what 1.8ppm and on chel drake that what like 6-8 min fight.  So that is about 12 or so procs per fight.......And if it is not up before AOE get the F out lol.  But if you get AOE immunity 10 secs every like 5 min or even 3 min that what 3 per fight.</P> <P>So which you rather???</P> <P>Think out side the box please. </P> <P>Also your not a dps class......your a debuffer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since LU13</P> <P>L8er Tuppo</P> <P>70Berserker of Nagafen</P> <P>Havoc</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL. just in this thread you have made 2 replys that I would say are some of the most arsenine posts I have ever seen.</P> <P>Here, let me ask you this:  As a berserker, are you a tank or are you dps??? better think carefully before you answer that, because you should not be able to do both really well in order to keep the balance of the game inline.</P> <P>After all, game balance is why brigands are bieng nerfed.  You might be next big guy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div></div> <p>If you guys are a DPS class then why does Wiz/necro/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/Conj/ and some times Zerkers out dps you..  Also why does every RAID guild say without a brigs dispatch there is no point even attempting an orange mob.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Wis and necro's are t1 dps and do not give as many debuffs as us. WHile we were not intendened to be a debuff class from the start we are now and its fine. Becuase we can still do good damage on single target mobs. And btw, teh only time a zerker out dps's me is when its a AOE fight and they use Juggernaut, with Destruction and Open wounds, or on long drawn out fights when the mt gets dps boost from all the procs on him. Okay thanks much BYE.</font></p> <p>I bet if you did not have DISPATCH every guild would have you replaced with one of the upper classes since you cant even touch there dps. </p><p><font color="#ff0000">And I bet you have never looked at our other spells, becuase if you would, you would see that dispatch just adds 3k to our allready powerfull debuffs and it short term while our other debuffs are permanent. K?</font> </p> <p>Also AR is better as a proc rather then ability due to you can avoid aoes more then once a fight if it procs.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Um, if we used it when aoe would be up then we would avoid the same amount, and honeslty you just looked stupid when you said that.</font></p> <p>So here is a situation AR suppose to proc what 1.8ppm and on chel drake that what like 6-8 min fight.  So that is about 12 or so procs per fight.......And if it is not up before AOE get the F out lol.  But if you get AOE immunity 10 secs every like 5 min or even 3 min that what 3 per fight.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Proc's are broken right now, and its really not easy to find if you AR is up or not right now so untill you play the class [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] please.</font></p> <p>So which you rather???</p> <p>Think out side the box please. </p> <p>Also your not a dps class......your a debuffer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since LU13</p><p><font color="#ff0000">So, your brigands must do around 700dps then? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Since most Top end guilds have said that there brigs and do a hella more dps then most classes, encounter dependant but on average they are usually higher then some t1 classes.</font></p> <p>L8er Tuppo</p> <p>70Berserker of Nagafen</p> <p>Havoc</p><hr></blockquote>Dude, you really [Removed for Content] me off, and yes I am going to claim you are officailly in jeff foxworthy terms "Here's your sign". Please go back to the Berserker forums, and log out, so you can never post again.</div>

[TerriBlades]

<P>All I have to say at this point is... if you plan on waiting for Lockeye to keep an eye on it, and adjust it if need be... I'm sorry. Theres a good chance brigands will be waiting a long time.</P> <P>I will stress once more, this should not be turned into a proc. Making it a proc makes it completely useless and takes the use of it out of the hands of the player, and into the hands of the RNG. And we all know how bad that can be.</P>

[Urza]

<DIV>If I remember correctly the reason why brigs was given their debuffs in LU13 was due to  no guild wanted them and no one wanted to play them. But back then they were labled as a "DPS" class, yet people played other classes for dps.....wonder why?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also THE ONLY WAY you would ever beat out a necro/conj/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/ would be if they were afk or just hit pet attack.  Yeah our brigs parse about 800-1400 depending on groups and mobs but they still 6 to 9th down on the top 10.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said you are only brought along the raid for your debuffs and thats it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ask your guild leader if he would bring you to DT for tarinax if you didnt have the debuffs......I bet the answer would be no.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AR is broke atm not due to what is is but because of the mechanics are broke atm.  My berserker procs are messed up and I go berserk like once an hour. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But for all the brigs that say awwwwwwwwwww I cant DPS no more because I cant hax the game and avoid every AOE in the game.  For those brigs.... YOUR NOT DPS get over it your only there to debuff and bring your 1k dps along with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The true 1700+ dps classes will take care of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rest of you understand your main job is to debuff not DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So like I said brigs your sole job and only reason any guild wants you is your debuffs.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I am a tank that depends on his hate from beatin on the mob compared to guardians where they get hate from getting hit.  So yeah I have to do dps to be able to hold agro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70Bersker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  Okay how hard would it be to see okay AOE called yeap AR up good I can stay in, or even ohhh crap run.   With this message you have more of a possibilty for it to be up if you wait to spam your CA's like 20 secs before AOE goes off compared to a buf that you cast once every 5 min <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Urza69 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[jarnpraetor]

<blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<DIV>P.S.  Okay how hard would it be to see okay AOE called yeap AR up good I can stay in, or even ohhh crap run.   With this message you have more of a possibilty for it to be up if you wait to spam your CA's like 20 secs before AOE goes off compared to a buf that you cast once every 5 min <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> </span><hr></blockquote> I'd rather have a castable buff that goes off once every 5 minutes than a proc buff that goes off every 3 to 4 minutes. So are bezerkers dps? Cause seems to me like if a class can tank ChelDrak and Matron, it shouldn't have DPS anywhere near mine.

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div></div> <div>If I remember correctly the reason why brigs was given their debuffs in LU13 was due to  no guild wanted them and no one wanted to play them. But back then they were labled as a "DPS" class, yet people played other classes for dps.....wonder why?????</div> <div> </div> <div>Also THE ONLY WAY you would ever beat out a necro/conj/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/ would be if they were afk or just hit pet attack.  Yeah our brigs parse about 800-1400 depending on groups and mobs but they still 6 to 9th down on the top 10.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Like I said you are only brought along the raid for your debuffs and thats it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Ask your guild leader if he would bring you to DT for tarinax if you didnt have the debuffs......I bet the answer would be no.  </div> <div> </div> <div>AR is broke atm not due to what is is but because of the mechanics are broke atm.  My berserker procs are messed up and I go berserk like once an hour. </div> <div> </div> <div>But for all the brigs that say awwwwwwwwwww I cant DPS no more because I cant hax the game and avoid every AOE in the game.  For those brigs.... YOUR NOT DPS get over it your only there to debuff and bring your 1k dps along with it.</div> <div> </div> <div>The true 1700+ dps classes will take care of that.</div> <div> </div> <div>Rest of you understand your main job is to debuff not DPS</div> <div> </div> <div>So like I said brigs your sole job and only reason any guild wants you is your debuffs.   </div> <div> </div> <div>Also I am a tank that depends on his hate from beatin on the mob compared to guardians where they get hate from getting hit.  So yeah I have to do dps to be able to hold agro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>L8er Tuppo</div> <div>70Bersker of Nagafen</div> <div>Havoc</div> <div> </div> <div>P.S.  Okay how hard would it be to see okay AOE called yeap AR up good I can stay in, or even ohhh crap run.   With this message you have more of a possibilty for it to be up if you wait to spam your CA's like 20 secs before AOE goes off compared to a buf that you cast once every 5 min <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>Just a thought <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Urza69 on <span class="date_text">11-07-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Like I said the DPS is situational, but for mobs that had alot of aoe's and pets would die and assasins could not stay in brigs would be top dps, and usually in the top 7 for our parses. However we also only have 1 necro, 2 assasins and 2 swashy's and no conjurer, if we had more i would agree that our parse would b eway lower.Also to you P.S. as we have been saying all along, there is not emote, nothing to parse and nothing tha tgoes in a chat channel tha twe can easily see if AR goes up, and looking in Buffs while we have all of our Debufs up, and then the effects window with temp buffs moving is a PITA, especially since we have to look if it i broken to. KK thanks</div>

[Cylox Of Boreal]

So... For those that has already completed the claymore and has a rapier in our belts. Can we instead get a new duelwield? Seems like its quite useless to have a onehanded weapon when the new changes are in effect. <div></div>

[Bhronn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div></div> <div>If I remember correctly the reason why brigs was given their debuffs in LU13 was due to  no guild wanted them and no one wanted to play them. But back then they were labled as a "DPS" class, yet people played other classes for dps.....wonder why?????</div> <div> </div> <div>Also THE ONLY WAY you would ever beat out a necro/conj/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/ would be if they were afk or just hit pet attack.  Yeah our brigs parse about 800-1400 depending on groups and mobs but they still 6 to 9th down on the top 10.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Like I said you are only brought along the raid for your debuffs and thats it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Ask your guild leader if he would bring you to DT for tarinax if you didnt have the debuffs......I bet the answer would be no.  </div> <div> </div> <div>AR is broke atm not due to what is is but because of the mechanics are broke atm.  My berserker procs are messed up and I go berserk like once an hour. </div> <div> </div> <div>But for all the brigs that say awwwwwwwwwww I cant DPS no more because I cant hax the game and avoid every AOE in the game.  For those brigs.... YOUR NOT DPS get over it your only there to debuff and bring your 1k dps along with it.</div> <div> </div> <div>The true 1700+ dps classes will take care of that.</div> <div> </div> <div>Rest of you understand your main job is to debuff not DPS</div> <div> </div> <div>So like I said brigs your sole job and only reason any guild wants you is your debuffs.   </div> <div> </div> <div>Also I am a tank that depends on his hate from beatin on the mob compared to guardians where they get hate from getting hit.  So yeah I have to do dps to be able to hold agro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>L8er Tuppo</div> <div>70Bersker of Nagafen</div> <div>Havoc</div> <div> </div> <div>P.S.  Okay how hard would it be to see okay AOE called yeap AR up good I can stay in, or even ohhh crap run.   With this message you have more of a possibilty for it to be up if you wait to spam your CA's like 20 secs before AOE goes off compared to a buf that you cast once every 5 min <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>Just a thought <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Urza69 on <span class="date_text">11-07-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Again I say stupid people should not post. The lewt dude in you has overshadowed the intellegent person your mother wants you to be.Innocent FoHPS: yes I just called you stupid.</div>

[Deeds]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Urza69 wrote:<BR></P> <P>Blah</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I am a tank that depends on his hate from beatin on the mob compared to guardians where they get hate from getting hit.  So yeah I have to do dps to be able to hold agro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70Bersker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Blah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Urza69 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:43 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nice, how convenient, having the best of both worlds, aint it.  Hmm maybe they should lower the damage of most of your CAs and attach a small CA  agro proc to them to generate agro, this way you could still hold agro, but your dps will go down.  Ya, I'm sure you would be ok with that for the sake of the game balance.<BR>

[kyth]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bhronn wrote:<div>Again I say stupid people should not post. The lewt dude in you has overshadowed the intellegent person your mother wants you to be.Innocent FoHPS: yes I just called you stupid.</div><hr>Comments like this just beg the mods to lock threads....  I would suggest you dont do posts like these, unless that is what you are trying to do.  Keep the posting up and keep the pm's to devs going.  If you want to have them change AR to something even remotely useful you need to keep the threads clean.....</blockquote></div>

[Fromingo]

<DIV>I had been off for about 6 weeks while moving and solving the new area's connection problems.  Seeing this nerf coming down the pipe just makes coming back look less attractive.  I'll think I'll just wait the 2 months for Vanguard and deal with a fresh game that hasn't gotten into the bad habit of making drastic changes to fix their game and then making even more drastic changes to fix the problems caused by previous terrible changes.</DIV>

[Mialia]

If i'm not mistaken, Brigand is an offensive rogue (debuff the mob's defense) and swashies are defensives rogies (debuff the mob's attack skills). How come a offensive, aggressive class can't DPS ?

[jarnpraetor]

<DIV>With the addition of adornments, I don't think the WIS AA line is going to be viable for raiding brigands in EoF. Just too much loss with having 1 slot empty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Urza]

<DIV>At the moment AR is stated as having 1.8ppm not every 3 to 4 minutes.   So you want a spell that allows you to stay in 1 aoe every 5 min compared to something that can make you dodge almost 2 AOES every min.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might think my logic is lacking but how is every 5 min better then 2 every min?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also dont take your anger out on me cause you actually MIGHT have to run out of an AOE like the rest of us ALWAYS have to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys are making a big deal out of nothing just calm down!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV>

[LlewCadey]

<div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div>At the moment AR is stated as having 1.8ppm not every 3 to 4 minutes.   So you want a spell that allows you to stay in 1 aoe every 5 min compared to something that can make you dodge almost 2 AOES every min.</div> <div> </div> <div>You might think my logic is lacking but how is every 5 min better then 2 every min?????</div> <div> </div> <div>Also dont take your anger out on me cause you actually MIGHT have to run out of an AOE like the rest of us ALWAYS have to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>You guys are making a big deal out of nothing just calm down!!!!</div> <div> </div> <div>L8er Tuppo</div> <div>70 Berserker of Nagafen</div> <div>Havoc</div><hr></blockquote>procs are currently broken, thats the intended, however its not the actualthat said though, if as a brig you want a clickable AOE immunity with 3 min recast that lasts for 30 secs, take the int line and use the FD sheesh</div>

[jarnpraetor]

<blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<DIV>At the moment AR is stated as having 1.8ppm not every 3 to 4 minutes.   So you want a spell that allows you to stay in 1 aoe every 5 min compared to something that can make you dodge almost 2 AOES every min.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might think my logic is lacking but how is every 5 min better then 2 every min?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also dont take your anger out on me cause you actually MIGHT have to run out of an AOE like the rest of us ALWAYS have to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys are making a big deal out of nothing just calm down!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV><hr></blockquote> Did you read the part where is says it procs off of CAs?????? Not Successful attack. The 1.8ppm will get applied to 0.5 casting times CAs, which will not give you 1.8 ppm. They've noobed it up.

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>jarnpraetor wrote:<blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div>At the moment AR is stated as having 1.8ppm not every 3 to 4 minutes.   So you want a spell that allows you to stay in 1 aoe every 5 min compared to something that can make you dodge almost 2 AOES every min.</div> <div> </div> <div>You might think my logic is lacking but how is every 5 min better then 2 every min?????</div> <div> </div> <div>Also dont take your anger out on me cause you actually MIGHT have to run out of an AOE like the rest of us ALWAYS have to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>You guys are making a big deal out of nothing just calm down!!!!</div> <div> </div> <div>L8er Tuppo</div> <div>70 Berserker of Nagafen</div> <div>Havoc</div><hr></blockquote> Did you read the part where is says it procs off of CAs?????? Not Successful attack. The 1.8ppm will get applied to 0.5 casting times CAs, which will not give you 1.8 ppm. They've noobed it up.<hr></blockquote>Casting time (.5)+ Cooldown time (.5)= 1 second.. thats the cast time these are based off of.</div>

[Damari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kegofbud wrote: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Urza69, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. <BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Billy Madisson FTW.  </P> <P>With regards to AR, well, SOE is giving it to everyone now anyway so its not really a unique ability.  A self-applied buff would have been better than a randomised proc.  A proc is a crap solution but as it has been pointed out already, this may change if SoE fix the proc mchanics properly.</P> <P> </P>

[DarkMasterMan]

I got two pages through this post, and my heart aches, it truly does. Your taking away my favorite ability...and instead...I get a % chance to proc what was previously a permanent buff. You implemented this in DoF, and left it the same throughout KoS, why do you feel that you now need to change it? Just answer me that, why after all this time would you change one of our ancient teachings. Oh wait, launch day, I can see it coming!Dispatch: Debuff component removed, added new component, spins mob, does not work on epic targets.Devit: Debuff component removed, now knocks down, does not work on epic targets.Rake: Also removed this debuff component, however, it now has a chance to drop targets avoidance by 1%<div></div>

[jarnpraetor]

<DIV>New update:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AR 25% chance to proc on CA (upgradeable to 35%), duration 7 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is actually working  for the most part. Yay for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the greatest thing of all....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins get 30 second AE immunity with a 90 second recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jida]

<blockquote><hr>jarnpraetor wrote:<div>New update:</div> <div> </div> <div>AR 25% chance to proc on CA (upgradeable to 35%), duration 7 seconds.</div> <div> </div> <div>This is actually working  for the most part. Yay for us.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>But the greatest thing of all....</div> <div> </div> <div>Assassins get 30 second AE immunity with a 90 second recast.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote><div></div>This real or a joke?

[SorynD]

no joke, actualy its 28% now & only lasts 7s & the new aa adds 2s to that for every point spent. I wonder if any of the dev know math, the way proc work is its 3% chance x the casting speed of the CA used. all brig CA have a cast time of 1s, now tell me guys, whats 3x1?...3% thats right, so even if they give AR a 100% changes to proc off CA what will it still be? thats right you got it 3% chance! no matter HOW many % they give it AR only has 3%. hell i'm not asking for much, just give us what you gave to the assassins in EoF a 30s AoE immune with a 90s recast timer? Brigand were the only class to have this before EoF, i don't care if other class's get it to but at LEST don't kill us, of ALL the class Brig need it the MOST, give the other class the proc & brig the better one. <div></div>

[PowertothePeople]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SorynD wrote:<BR>no joke, actualy its 28% now & only lasts 7s & the new aa adds 2s to that for every point spent.<BR><BR>I wonder if any of the dev know math, the way proc work is its 3% chance x the casting speed of the CA used. all brig CA have a cast time of 1s, now tell me guys, whats 3x1?...3% thats right, so even if they give AR a 100% changes to proc off CA what will it still be? thats right you got it 3% chance! no matter HOW many % they give it AR only has 3%. hell i'm not asking for much, just give us what you gave to the assassins in EoF a 30s AoE immune with a 90s recast timer? Brigand were the only class to have this before EoF, i don't care if other class's get it to but at LEST don't kill us, of ALL the class Brig need it the MOST, give the other class the proc & brig the better one.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was pretty mad about this change but was getting over it, till I read the last 2 post. I really havent been pay attention to the other classes because I really dont care what they get or dont get. BUT if assassins really get this 30s immune with a 90s recast in EoF, then why did Brigands EVER get this skill in the first place, why did it not go to assassins in DoF?<p>Message Edited by PowertothePeople on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 PM</span>

[Ni7r0kill32]

   This is a kick in the nuts<div></div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

ok, i just got done testing AR in beta on about 10 differnt mobs, all were grey cuase i didn't feel like zoning. They have changed it, there is no more red icon if you are hit then it dispels the current AR proc. just that proc so if you don't have a dot and it procs again then it will stay up and you wont get hit. Also a mjor change they made is it seems that the AR buffs are only on one part of the spell effects window. Still i say 7 seconds is to low. Still needs to be above 10 for it really be usefull, but major improvement devs.<div></div>

[Lockeye]

The combat art proc and higher proc percentage is meant to give you more control of forcing AR to proc. 7 seconds is plenty of time to throttle your combat arts to get it to proc again. You may also want to save up the reuse on your combat arts when you know bosses are due for an area effect ability. In this way, the AR proc rewards the brigands who time their boss encounters well.<div></div>

[Niende]

<DIV>Please just remove Amazing Reflexes from my brigand's spell book. You have ruined it and these terrible random short duration replacements are entirely worthless. Give me an extra AE or something so I can close the gap a little with swashbuckler damage on pack fights. 15 second proc sucked, 7 second version is even worse. I dont want to carpal every time a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] aoe is going to hit so I have a Chance of avoiding it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>The combat art proc and higher proc percentage is meant to give you more control of forcing AR to proc. 7 seconds is plenty of time to throttle your combat arts to get it to proc again. You may also want to save up the reuse on your combat arts when you know bosses are due for an area effect ability. In this way, the AR proc rewards the brigands who time their boss encounters well.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It will take on average 8-9 combat arts to proc this once, which means even if spamming ca's theres a chance it will wear off before it procs with it at 30-35% chance, based off a .5s cast combat art.</P> <P>if the intent is to force the use of it through some skill (such as saving ca's) it needs to be re-evaluated.</P> <P>The reasoning behind this is say you're on a raid, raid leader calls aoe in 5 seconds, you then spam all your combat arts up at that time, AR doesn't proc you die.  Proc'ing is not based on skill, no mater how you try to make it seem that way.  Its based on pure random luck.  Having a skill as vital as AOE immunity, based on some random % proc will ensure it is never used and counted on.</P> <P>I understand your intent is to not give brigands the freedom from aoe imunity they had previously, as it was imbalanced, but possibly giving a short term buff, that we CAN controll, on a short re-cast timer and duration is just what the doctor ordered.</P> <P> </P>

[Lockeye]

Note: Procs that specifically mention combat arts as their trigger do not normalize, and instead use the raw percentage that is listed. If it is not working as described, then it will be changed.<div></div>

[Dakkon_10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>The combat art proc and higher proc percentage is meant to give you more control of forcing AR to proc. 7 seconds is plenty of time to throttle your combat arts to get it to proc again. You may also want to save up the reuse on your combat arts when you know bosses are due for an area effect ability. In this way, the AR proc rewards the brigands who time their boss encounters well.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you wanted to reward Brigands who time AR well why not make it a CA in itself, not a buff that has a chance to go off with a CA. It is way too unreliable, even for a skilled player.

[DaLurk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Note: Procs that specifically mention combat arts as their trigger do not normalize, and instead use the raw percentage that is listed. If it is not working as described, then it will be changed.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Several propositions were made for a better, useful, reliable AR skill. Pages and pages.And you keep doing it your way.Why do you never listen and try ?It's not a flame, it's a real question. True, no cynicism.</div>

[Snarks]

"better, useful, reliable".. do you just want the old AR? or what, obviously they are intending to nerf this abilityAlthough I do wonder why they didnt just fix the "Breaks on damage taken" aspect.<div></div>

[DaLurk]

<div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:"better, useful, reliable".. do you just want the old AR? or what, obviously they are intending to nerf this ability<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't want absolutely the old AR. But anything that won't rely on proc will be better I think. Even a 3 sec duration skill with 1 hour recast.Current AR is Russian Roulette. Useless.</div>

[Mialia]

Now, there is no more hate bonus in AR, it will be difficult for brigands to tank with it :/ The mercenay AA line is less interesting now. More seriously, all DPS scouts have to joust to survive, but they are already doing more DPS while jousting than brigands with 100% AE avoidance. Do brigands will get a +150% DPS bonus to make it "balanced" ? Best regards,(or not) <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>

[Tarsonius_Drak]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT size=1><FONT face=Century color=#ffffff>If I am a raidleader, I would not allow a brigand to play rusish roulette, because his debuffing is needed. So I would say, guy stay outside wait for dispatch. Go in, fire it and go out. Don’t bather you with doing any dmg that will be done by assassins (who can avoid 50% of all AE). </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Century color=#ffffff size=1></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=1><FONT face=Century color=#ffffff>Can’t wait for a raid with 10 assassins.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[AratornCalahn]

<blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:The combat art proc and higher proc percentage is meant to give you more control of forcing AR to proc. 7 seconds is plenty of time to throttle your combat arts to get it to proc again. You may also want to save up the reuse on your combat arts when you know bosses are due for an area effect ability. In this way, the AR proc rewards the brigands who time their boss encounters well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Personaly, I find there is nothing skilled about a random chance. If its too low its simply 'random', if its high then its predictableish but I dont see how thats skill; at least anymore skill than manageing a power draining version or something but perhaps im just misjudging how it would work. <div></div>

[AratornCalahn]

Also we should get a % hate incrase we lost from AR on an AA instead of one of those crappy 'reduce huge recast time by 5%' ones. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Cylox Of Boreal]

<P>Dont think any devs are reading this long thread, they are just keeping it to let us brigand players let of some steem.</P> <P>They could probably care less of what we think, we dont have a big enough community and thus we dont generate as much money as some other classes do. </P> <P>For example Wizards, Guardians and Rangers.</P> <P>Like they did for those toiletwrapwears just becouse then said: Its not fun when you raid and an epic mob turn  you and they kill you in one hit. Well ur wish has come true, now you can. Grats all farmers and bots alike. But being a less played class like a brigand, they couldnt care less of what we think. Nope we are just to sit back and take it up the "#¤.</P> <P>But i guess for SoE to still bring in the big cash they had to nerf our class since the other classes was to upset with our AR.</P> <P>So after this ill guess im gonna make a wizzy so i can start tanking alittle on the raids aswell and not just the guardians.</P>

[ThunderFunky]

<DIV>So bascially the situation is as follows, AR "was" considered overpowerd and led to easy mode brigands - i can take that on the chin , not that i agree anyway</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now supposedly the new AR is according to the Dev, and from other comments, to make AR some kind of skill lol - basically u get the "AOE inc in 10 secs" call from your raid leader, you then spam all your CA's as fast as possible, and hope that AR procs - you are kidding me right ?! - where is the "skill" in this, there is none , its just a joke. If this is AR in its end form i wont have it on my toobar anymore , theres no just point , may as well joust with the rest of the DPS and check the embarassing parser at the end</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone just stated, our debuffs are some of the best in game, now if you was raid leader on a contested mob with other guilds watching and waiting, and you need that mob dispatched etc, are you seriously gonna let the brigand risk trying to get AR to proc before an AOE? No i wouldnt and i doubt many top guilds would - i can just see the prospect of us being outside of AOE range and told to wait there lol so ensure we get our debuffs in and dont die from aoe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i hear that assassins are getting some kind of total aoe immune on a recast timer? If this is for real , then that makes any comments from ANY class about AR being overpowered a total and utter joke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins AOE immunes spell.... Swashies AOE immune AA line (group)....Conjurors AOE immune tank pets..... That says it all about the current state of of the brig in EOF</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace</DIV>

[FuzzBall]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cylox Of Borealis wrote:<div></div>But i guess for SoE to still bring in the big cash they had to nerf our class since the other classes was to upset with our AR.<hr></blockquote>And yet those stupid thick-as-s**t morons dont seem to realise that a Brig nerf means a raid nerf.</div>

[Dakkon_10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins AOE immunes spell.... <FONT color=#ffff00>Swashies AOE immune AA line (group)....</FONT>Conjurors AOE immune tank pets..... That says it all about the current state of of the brig in EOF</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If it makes you feel any better, swash group AoE immunity is 15 second duration, 5 min recast. So unless the fight is 15 seconds long we have to joust every other AoE. Not saying his means it's ok for brigand's AoE immunity to suck tho.</P> <P>Is it so hard to make AR a temp buff that has say, a 10 sec duration, 30 sec recast? You would have a 100% chance of it working but you would still need to time it. The "procs off CA's" is a cool idea, but not for something as important as AoE immunity.</P>

[Shidonya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urza69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>If I remember correctly the reason why brigs was given their debuffs in LU13 was due to  no guild wanted them and no one wanted to play them. But back then they were labled as a "DPS" class, yet people played other classes for dps.....wonder why?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also THE ONLY WAY you would ever beat out a necro/conj/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/ would be if they were afk or just hit pet attack.  Yeah our brigs parse about 800-1400 depending on groups and mobs but they still 6 to 9th down on the top 10. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said you are only brought along the raid for your debuffs and thats it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ask your guild leader if he would bring you to DT for tarinax if you didnt have the debuffs......I bet the answer would be no. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AR is broke atm not due to what is is but because of the mechanics are broke atm.  My berserker procs are messed up and I go berserk like once an hour.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But for all the brigs that say awwwwwwwwwww I cant DPS no more because I cant hax the game and avoid every AOE in the game.  For those brigs.... YOUR NOT DPS get over it your only there to debuff and bring your 1k dps along with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The true 1700+ dps classes will take care of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rest of you understand your main job is to debuff not DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So like I said brigs your sole job and only reason any guild wants you is your debuffs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff66>Also I am a tank that depends on his hate from beatin on the mob compared to guardians where they get hate from getting hit.  So yeah I have to do dps to be able to hold agro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70Bersker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  Okay how hard would it be to see okay AOE called yeap AR up good I can stay in, or even ohhh crap run.   With this message you have more of a possibilty for it to be up if you wait to spam your CA's like 20 secs before AOE goes off compared to a buf that you cast once every 5 min <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Urza69 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:43 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Funny thing is, thus far I've been able to out tank, out dps and out maintain agro the zerkers I've seen. In fact I'm preferred as tank over zerkers in guild.</P> <P>I don't care about the AR stuff except the hate being removed but that won't effect much except maybe a warlock or two. </P> <P>I would like to have something in instead of proposed AR. It isn't right to have a skill in the knowledge book that will never be used. How about a buff that increases all resists by 500 to 800 points? That would be both useful to we tanking Brigs and to the raiding ones who can't avoid aoe's now. </P> <P>Or here's some ideas for ya, how about a ranged attack that I don't see "Immune" when I use it on an Epic. Ooh ooh or an AOE that could actually do some damage. Perma invis like eq1 would be nice too, since invis in this game it is pretty much pointless currently. Maybe even dare I say group utility of some sort like (Thuggish Envy "ironic don't you think" all group members try to achieve the brigands greatness by increasing their DPS 50% but being the competitor the brigand steps theirs up too) that'd be kewl.</P>

[Jida]

to be hoenest i like this better than 17% for max 20 seconds.I get 38% (after i max aa's) for 7 seconds.. combined with claymore item i see myself ae immune most the time.. the brig's that abused the system and sat on auto attack for fights to kill certain mobs are to blame.offloading combat arts to get a proc and to time it with ae's sounds more like skill with a hint of luck.I like the current version .. there.. i said it..=)(all comments in the above post are my opinion and mine alone, its up 2 you to decied. Good luck)<div></div>

[Shidonya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR>to be hoenest i like this better than 17% for max 20 seconds.<BR><BR>I get 38% (after i max aa's) for 7 seconds.. combined with claymore item i see myself ae immune most the time.. the brig's that abused the system and sat on auto attack for fights to kill certain mobs are to blame.<BR><BR>offloading combat arts to get a proc and to time it with ae's sounds more like skill with a hint of luck.<BR><BR>I like the current version .. there.. i said it..<BR><BR>=)<BR><BR>(all comments in the above post are my opinion and mine alone, its up 2 you to decied. Good luck)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Remains to be seen but sounds like to me another way to put the hate gain on it. Spam CA's for buff = Spike Damage and agro.

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shidonya wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jida wrote:to be hoenest i like this better than 17% for max 20 seconds.I get 38% (after i max aa's) for 7 seconds.. combined with claymore item i see myself ae immune most the time.. the brig's that abused the system and sat on auto attack for fights to kill certain mobs are to blame.offloading combat arts to get a proc and to time it with ae's sounds more like skill with a hint of luck.I like the current version .. there.. i said it..=)(all comments in the above post are my opinion and mine alone, its up 2 you to decied. Good luck) <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Remains to be seen but sounds like to me another way to put the hate gain on it. Spam CA's for buff = Spike Damage and agro.<hr></blockquote>possibly.. agro control should be easier now that its 10% less aggro</div>

[Diapause]

<P>This would be so laughable if it wasn't for the AOE Immunity spells/ca's you are gaving to the Conjy's, Swashies, and Assasins.. </P> <P>Are you freakin' kidding me that you would entertain giving the top TWO DPS TOONS in the entire game any more reason to do more DPS?? What the heck do Assasins and Conjy's need any more help with AOE immunity for.. they joust now and still reign supreme on damage.</P> <P>Even with a broken AR that let us stay in the fight during AOEs.. we're still out DPS'd by Assassins, Conjy's, Necros, Wizards, Warlocks, Beserkers, Rangers, and Swashies (in grp fights). Where was it overpowered?? Change the spell to a 3k dmg CA every 30 secs to makeup for the DPS loss to jousting and we'll call it even.. I have my resists up to raid level, I don't need your charity AOE immunity.</P> <P>I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but we are one of the least played classes gamewide and this change REEEKS of a PVP adjustment that hit us hard for PVE.. </P> <P>Dam I'm [Removed for Content]!</P>

[XhaleSlow]

<P>Lockeye, all youve done is generally reduce a brigand to a crap class NOONE will want to play. i wrote a post, but it seems it was deleted, guess the Dev's dont like crap aimed there way. </P> <P>Anything you do, is definatly not constructive, especially when you go against all other options that were fielded by people who play a brig. All you dev's are the same...you dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and one day, when theres noone left and EQ2 is a ghosttown because of your unnesessary nerfs, im gonna laugh at yer arses when yer lookin for jobs at atari.</P> <P>Peace out, and more power to ya, but im definatly one brig who doesnt believe one [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] line of yer bull.</P> <P>And for all you people who believe the "38% chance to proc" noway in hell, look at yer procs even our poisons with a 25% chance, and our offensive stance with the 25% chance to proc...go off so rarely that it isnt even funny...for them to tell us it'll work as a proc...nother [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lie cause procs are SKROOD, and theyve been screwed forever, the % listed on a spell is a poor shadow to the 1-2% they actually go off...ie putting anything on a proc is an utter waste of time...specially if you wanna rely on it...the % on the spell means jack, its all about the casting time of the CA...28% my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by XhaleSlowly on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:58 AM</span>

[DaLurk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Diapause wrote:<p>I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but we are one of the least played classes gamewide and this change REEEKS of a PVP adjustment that hit us hard for PVE.. </p><hr></blockquote>QFE. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font face="Courier New">2166507 Total 162672 Wizard 139799 Berserker 128504 Monk 124496 Ranger 124090 Necromancer 118610 Guardian 117719 Paladin 112082 Shadowknight 108404 Conjuror 104292 Fury  98253 Assassin  86987 Warlock  80858 Templar  80730 Warden  77187 Swashbuckler  76416 Bruiser  63090 Dirge  61550 Illusionist  58761 Mystic  54442 Troubador  48382 Inquisitor  47775 Brigand  45783 Defiler  45621 Coercer<a href="http://www.eq2census.com" target=_blank>Players Between level 1 and 70, all server, numbers pulled October 29th</a></font></div>

[Urza]

The combat art proc and higher proc percentage is meant to give you more control of forcing AR to proc. 7 seconds is plenty of time to throttle your combat arts to get it to proc again. You may also want to save up the reuse on your combat arts when you know bosses are due for an area effect ability. In this way, the AR proc rewards the brigands who time their boss encounters well.<BR> <P></P> <DIV>=============================================<BR>Jared Sweatt<BR>EverQuest II Spells, Achievements, and Gameplay Designer</DIV> <P> </P> <P>Well like the dev said learn to trigger it when you need to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>L2Play</P> <P> </P> <P>L8er Tuppo</P> <P>70 Berseker of Nagafen</P> <P>Havoc</P>

[XhaleSlow]

<DIV>Well, if we can somehow convince 47,700 brigands to freakin quit, maybe they'd listen....then again, that'd only be a lost of $720k a month or 8.6 million a year...lets all go spend that in vanguard...and pray they fire the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s who lowered their profit margin by a bit ,p</DIV>

[AratornCalahn]

40,000 of those were alts roled after DOF <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[XhaleSlow]

<DIV>Prolly...40k peeps makin a brig just so they have something cool on a char and a reason to be on a raid...dps and debuff...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>either way, dumb arsse zerkers jes need to get the hell out of the brig forum...go back to where ya belong because you have no bearing on anything here other than just puttin yer face where it isnt wanted =)</DIV>

[jarnpraetor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>Note: Procs that specifically mention combat arts as their trigger do not normalize, and instead use the raw percentage that is listed. If it is not working as described, then it will be changed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Prior to last night I think the proc rate was "normalized". </P> <P>After the changes it actually seems to be proc'ing at the stated rate. </P> <P>However it does NOT proc off of non damaging CA's, like our snares or elude. </P> <P>My biggest problem with AR now is the 7 second duration. That leaves a very small window in which to get and keep the immunity up for an incoming AE. Raid mob AE timers have some degree of randomness to the timers right? +/- 10 seconds? So raid leader calls AE, you spam your CA's, (This ability also does not over right itself). You get AR to trigger, 8 seconds later the AE hits, brigand takes damage.</P> <P>Maybe if you could chain proc AR that would be a solution. Instead of waiting for it to drop before you can proc it again.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Tholar]

Urza69...you are the one who should get nerfed... dps and tank... sounds unlogical to me, because Guardians are also tanks but dps? never seens a guard do 1k+ dps on a fight longer than 30s...and l2play? you kidding me? if you really need to do dps that hard to keep aggro, go learn your class yourself first!and you know: trigger a proc when you need it - as i said in an earlier post (which has been deleted and idk why...), that it sometimes takes you only 1 ca to trigger it or 8 ca's, so if an aoe is incomming i start smashing ca buttons 8s before aoe and hope i get it off or it doesnt trigger it on 1st ca and then not anymore....reeeeeally good statement...pls someone take him to the zerker forums back!<div></div>

[Kegofbud]

I guess it requires some testing, but i still think it's stupid. Go ahead and give it to everyone else now and tell us, the originals, that ours was overpowered. Totally stupid. I really am done discussing this, because I just get aggrevated thinking about it when no one else is listening, but ourselves.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>Note: Procs that specifically mention combat arts as their trigger do not normalize, and instead use the raw percentage that is listed. If it is not working as described, then it will be changed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>thanks for the info lockeye, I will test out the changes and report back. 

[Ravenwind]

<P>Copying this from the assassin board for those who are worried about the 30 AE immunity they get every 1:30.</P> <P> </P> <P>Getaway - major boost - 30 second duration, 1 min 30 sec recast - instant incombat stealth, and PREVENTS AOE WHEN NOT DIRECT, still has the shadowstep component if ya get hit... pop this just before boss aes.. mmmmm</P> <P> </P> <P>Notice it says 'instant incombat STEALTH'.  Know what that means?  They can't attack or they'll break it...  Know what that means?  I'll let you guys figure it out...  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[AlbinoLou]

It means a skilled assasin can time it so taht they don't get hit by AE's every other time or so......unlike the Brigand skill which is based on random chance and is totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing useless??<div></div>

[InquisitorR]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AratornCalahn wrote:<BR>40,000 of those were alts roled after DOF <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>oh how true that is, haha</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, but seriously.   AR has made me lazy, sure, but it has also made me wanted.  Do you all even remember Tier5?  Well, we have one brigand, this guild is full.   It sucked.   I'm game for nerfing the constant AE immunity, because whatever.</P> <P>Next topic:  Please devs, please make it a mana-drain buff, a burst buff, hell make me do the hokey pokey on a webcam in front of Playboy playmates for it, but please dont make it a proc.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lets keep this thread alive, Devs cant be that thick skulled...or can they?</P>

[ag]

Last night, AR was proc'ing <b>very</b> often while chain casting/spamming Combat Arts.It also appeared to be overwriting itself, in the sense that the timer on the AR icon was being "refilled" before it expired.So, on the surface, (I only had an hour last night to test it along with dozens of other things, including tradeskills and new Achivements) my opinion is that if you choose the correct achievements this will be a useful ability in it's current form. I'm being somewhat vague here because I don't think the changes are done yet.It is still random, make no mistake. However, as much as I'd like to dig my feet in and cry foul, I can't. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's true that if you spammed your CA's just prior to an AE, you'd likely live through it. No guarantees like Assassins *cough* et al, but this is a far cry from the ability last week or the week before. This is a vast improvement. At the moment, I'm torn between choose the 10% proc upgrade as an achievement rather than some other achievement, which is exactly as it should be, IMO.I still maintain the proc messages for all those combat arts that are missing them is a necessary requirement, and even in consideration of their relative priority and development time involved in adding them, perhaps we'll see that in the near future.And just because I though it was a great phrase, I can't wait to see raids with 10 Assassins either. hehehehe. Go Go class envy! I choose you!

[tehh4x]

well with AR being a proc now i actually have to pay attention and cant ninja afk anymore! and i cant do dps anymore, usually with the AR being immune now i can get up to roughly above 1k going all out with everything i have and that is staying on the mob, with AR being a proc and i have to move in and out lowering my time on the mob i dont even want to imagine what my dps would be like <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>Last night, AR was proc'ing <B>very</B> often while chain casting/spamming Combat Arts.<BR><BR>It also appeared to be overwriting itself, in the sense that the timer on the AR icon was being "refilled" before it expired.<BR><BR>So, on the surface, (I only had an hour last night to test it along with dozens of other things, including tradeskills and new Achivements) my opinion is that if you choose the correct achievements this will be a useful ability in it's current form. I'm being somewhat vague here because I don't think the changes are done yet.<BR><BR>It is still random, make no mistake. However, as much as I'd like to dig my feet in and cry foul, I can't. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's true that if you spammed your CA's just prior to an AE, you'd likely live through it. No guarantees like Assassins *cough* et al, but this is a far cry from the ability last week or the week before. This is a vast improvement. At the moment, I'm torn between choose the 10% proc upgrade as an achievement rather than some other achievement, which is exactly as it should be, IMO.<BR><BR>I still maintain the proc messages for all those combat arts that are missing them is a necessary requirement, and even in consideration of their relative priority and development time involved in adding them, perhaps we'll see that in the near future.<BR><BR>And just because I though it was a great phrase, I can't wait to see raids with 10 Assassins either. hehehehe. Go Go class envy! I choose you!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>AR is definitely working much better after last nights beta server update, it actually seems to be proc'ing at a reasonable rate. The duration has been lower to 7 secs which makes things interesting. </P> <P>I still don't understand why SOE refuses to just make AR a CA with a standard duration/recast. Their stubborness on issues like this regardless of customer feedback, combine with their failure to communicate the reasons for the changes has severely damaged my confidence in SOEs ability to manage the game. Regardless, I guess this is what we're going to get and thankfully it's no longer useless.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[XhaleSlow]

<DIV>its still useless, now its just above totally useless.</DIV>

[ProphecyCT]

<div><blockquote><hr>XhaleSlowly wrote:<div>its still useless, now its just above totally useless.</div><hr></blockquote>Sorry to say, AR was far overpowered, no class should be able to completely avoid AEs like that.  As for not being par with Swashies, Brigands still get far superior debuffs than Swashies.  Seems like all you guys have to do is plan your debuffs and joust AEs like all other scouts.</div>

[AlbinoLou]

<div></div><div></div>Aren't you a mage or something like that?  You know, someone who can stay at range the entire fight. When i can get nukes like an assassin's decapitate or AE like a Swashy or buff like a bard THEN you can tell me I shouldn't get things other scout's don't.  As far as our debuff's still being better than a Swashies 1) Are you sure they still are after combat changes?  2) You realize Swashes get more DPS to counterpoint our better debuffs, right?And in all honesty, what the hell was wrong with one class getting an ability others don't????   Maybe we should all tank, heal, nuke, and buff the same.  This game should have 3 classes instead of 24 I guess.<div></div><p>Message Edited by AlbinoLou on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:22 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by AlbinoLou on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>If they could do one more change to AR i would say change it to atleast a 10 sec duration.</DIV>

[Bhronn]

Did my own testing last night. And yes the proc rate is fixed. it came out to be a rough 20% for me for 3 hours.  It didnt seem to drop when I got hit and no agro is accrued to it. Thats the good news.Bad news its still not reliable. On several accassions the raid got a 10 sec call and i started spamming, AR procced and preceeeded to proc right after again. Then not again for 20 secs so my AR went down roughly 1 sec before the AE and I took the AE dmg. If that wasnt bad enough my total dps was again lower than even when ar was bugged.Why you might ask? Well other than a few debuffs when they were up I was saving my CA's for the AE call. So to try and get this to proc your dps will go down again because you just cant play normally and then try and have a few CA's up when AE is called. Its all too random and there absolutly is no "skill" involved with a proc. Bad news X2 is, this form of AR pretty much makes mental breach the only red poison your gonna use. So the brig class is still being limited significantly by these changes and our choices  are pretty much being defined for us. Thats how I see it.AR as a "proc" is a bad idea no matter how you code it. There is no skill involved with a random chance of a proc. On 1 accassion I spammed every CA I had and didnt get a proc. I appreciate the devs trying to meet us in the middle and still be able to do thier jobs, but this mechanic isnt it. Theres been many many suggestions sent in that would accomplish what you want without the randomness of it now.InnocentFoH<div></div>

[Magus_Bl]

Well I guess if nothing else it makes my AA choices a lot easier...

[Ni7r0kill32]

<DIV>Either A, the duration needs to be increased or it has to add time tothe effect instead of overriding it when it procs 2 times in a row.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, if I hit dispatch and it procs AR, ten right after i hit restrain and Rake and it procs off of rake it should increase the timer to (whatever is left on the first proc)+the proc off rake. Giving the throttling that lockeye is talking about more control. I understand what you are syaing lockeye about throttling to get it to proc t even if we spam 5 ca's 10 seconds prior to aoe hitting we have to keep spaming for it stay up for aoe to hit. Since aoe's have a +/- 10 seconds on them due to stuns, stiffles, casting redcutions and AA lines. This means we have to throttle for a full 20 seconds, basiccaly does not give us enough control of proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also since I am saying to have the time stack, you could argue that it would eventually proc enough where we would allways be immune. My suggeston to that is limit it to 30 seconds. Thus still making us throttle but allso giving us a larger timer on the spell but not outright increasing it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ni7r0kill32 on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

[Gungo]

I like the above idea to allow it to increase duration. Myabe even increase the duration to 10sec still.

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhronn wrote:<BR>Did my own testing last night. And yes the proc rate is fixed. it came out to be a rough 20% for me for 3 hours.  It didnt seem to drop when I got hit and no agro is accrued to it. Thats the good news.<BR><BR>Bad news its still not reliable. On several accassions the raid got a 10 sec call and i started spamming, AR procced and preceeeded to proc right after again. Then not again for 20 secs so my AR went down roughly 1 sec before the AE and I took the AE dmg. If that wasnt bad enough my total dps was again lower than even when ar was bugged.Why you might ask? Well other than a few debuffs when they were up I was saving my CA's for the AE call. So to try and get this to proc your dps will go down again because you just cant play normally and then try and have a few CA's up when AE is called. Its all too random and there absolutly is no "skill" involved with a proc. Bad news X2 is, this form of AR pretty much makes mental breach the only red poison your gonna use. So the brig class is still being limited significantly by these changes and our choices  are pretty much being defined for us. Thats how I see it.<BR><BR>AR as a "proc" is a bad idea no matter how you code it. There is no skill involved with a random chance of a proc. On 1 accassion I spammed every CA I had and didnt get a proc. <BR><BR>I appreciate the devs trying to meet us in the middle and still be able to do thier jobs, but this mechanic isnt it. Theres been many many suggestions sent in that would accomplish what you want without the randomness of it now.<BR><BR>Innocent<BR>FoH<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The lower duration (7 secs) definitely doesn't help. It's almost like SOE is doing tuning based on the probability of AR being active, which doesn't really work for this kind of skill. If the probability isn't 100% that AR will be up when the AE is set to go off (assuming I've timed the AE correctly) then I want to get the hell out of AE range. This is hard to do with a proc unless you make the proc occur so often that its up all the time, which of course would defeat the purpose of the change.  </P> <P>I really don't understand this 'stay the course' attitude of SOE.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nahlis]

Ok, don't mean to de-rail this, but I gotta ask... what happened to Brigands around DoF?  I mean I freely admit I made my brigand pretty recently (after my main hit 70 and i got bored of my mystic... couple months maybe?), but just because I wanted to try a scout class as a change and liked the concept.  Has been a  blast too, but with all the "post DoF" comments I'm really curious why apparently so many people decided to start Brigand alts at that time.

[DaLurk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Vanyari wrote:<div></div>Ok, don't mean to de-rail this, but I gotta ask... what happened to Brigands around DoF?<hr></blockquote><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=182" target=_blank>LU#13</a>, was the best and the worst thing that happened to the (now useless) Brigand Community.</div>

[Garoc_the_Dark]

I see many people post that AR is "Unbalanced", I would like to really know where they think the "unbalanced" part is.1) This skill is of minimal benefit out side of raids.2) This skill provides no benefit in solo play.3) This skill does give brigands 12% increase in agro at Adept 3.4) This skill does help everyone in a raid by allowing debuffs to be maintained.The only reason I could see this called "unballanced" is that we spend less money on resist gear, but we cant get away on this totally either.So if it's a money issue let's have a puchase disposable component. <div></div>

[Urza]

<DIV>Okay if your debuffs lasted like 5 secs then yah I would have to give you that you got the shaft.......but all of them last longer 30secs which is plenty of time to make sure you debuffs stick and are back on before.  If you cant then you need to work on that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get over it easy mode was taken from your class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It was a needed change to bring you to all of our lvls <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc</DIV><p>Message Edited by Urza69 on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 PM</span>

[Damari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bhronn wrote:<BR>Did my own testing last night. And yes the proc rate is fixed. it came out to be a rough 20% for me for 3 hours.  It didnt seem to drop when I got hit and no agro is accrued to it. Thats the good news.<BR><BR>Bad news its still not reliable. On several accassions the raid got a 10 sec call and i started spamming, AR procced and preceeeded to proc right after again. Then not again for 20 secs so my AR went down roughly 1 sec before the AE and I took the AE dmg. If that wasnt bad enough my total dps was again lower than even when ar was bugged.Why you might ask? Well other than a few debuffs when they were up I was saving my CA's for the AE call. So to try and get this to proc your dps will go down again because you just cant play normally and then try and have a few CA's up when AE is called. Its all too random and there absolutly is no "skill" involved with a proc. Bad news X2 is, this form of AR pretty much makes mental breach the only red poison your gonna use. So the brig class is still being limited significantly by these changes and our choices  are pretty much being defined for us. Thats how I see it.<BR><BR>AR as a "proc" is a bad idea no matter how you code it. There is no skill involved with a random chance of a proc. On 1 accassion I spammed every CA I had and didnt get a proc. <BR><BR>I appreciate the devs trying to meet us in the middle and still be able to do thier jobs, but this mechanic isnt it. Theres been many many suggestions sent in that would accomplish what you want without the randomness of it now.<BR><BR>Innocent<BR>FoH<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey Brohmn,</P> <P>Just wanted to thank ya for the good feedback to the boards on this topic and I think you nail the issue rather well.  I see two primary issues with this proc concept.</P> <P>AoE's from raid mobs are random so if we hold back our CA's until we think an AoE is incoming, our DPS output will drop substancially.  For raiding guilds that don't use a timer, being able to determine when a an AoE is incoming will hinder the brigands ability even further when trying to time their "SPAM" time and most will end up eating dirt.  If your swipe misses, then picking the incoming AoE will become even more difficult and the Brig will eat the AoE.</P> <P>The other issue is the recast time on our CA's.  Too long for this proc theory to work IMO.  We have two reliable CA's that recast at 10 sec, the rest are an average of 25-30 sec with our big guns at 60 sec.  So for a mob that AoE's two to three times a minute we really only have 2-3 CA's we can rely on to try and proc the immunity.  If we hold off using the others until the anticipated AOE, we  then knee-cap our DPS ability.</P> <P>I don't mind if they change the AR providing its logical.  The proc in its current form is still unreliable and therefore unusable for its true purpose.  May as well joust and if your lucky and the AR procs, you save the healer some power.<BR></P>

[Damari]

<P>Just a follow up thought,</P> <P>For the current proc arrangement to work, we would need a significant increase in auto-attack dps.  If they reduced Deceit and Ruthless Cunning to say 30 sec buffs with one min recasts (or even perm buffs), then this could alleviate some of the dps lose we'll see under this proposed proc arrangement.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vanyari wrote:<BR> Ok, don't mean to de-rail this, but I gotta ask... what happened to Brigands around DoF?  I mean I freely admit I made my brigand pretty recently (after my main hit 70 and i got bored of my mystic... couple months maybe?), but just because I wanted to try a scout class as a change and liked the concept.  Has been a  blast too, but with all the "post DoF" comments I'm really curious why apparently so many people decided to start Brigand alts at that time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LU 13 gave brigands debuffs that made them desirable in all aspects of gameplay.<BR>DOF gave brigands AR (ancient spell) which revolutionized thier raid gameplay. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>prior to DoF there was no skill of aoe avodiance and no one had an issue with it. Since the inception of AR people boggled how can the devs justify an immunity skill. It requires no skill to use. And the majority here complaining have not tested the New AR on raids. A few have and they are saying it works. as stated by lyndros.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If lyndros wants to make AR reliable. He needs to do this make the duration 10secs. this gives enough time for AR to stay up. THEN create a new ability to automatically trigger a 10 sec duration AR every 180secs. In conjuction w the proc AR. This will provide a reliable immunity. How? well if it comes down to that moment and AR proc did not go off. You can use the emergency AR to ensure your safety. AS long as you play your brignad well and time the AOE accordingly.  But processing AR will require some fail safe inclusion. </DIV>

[Keldo]

Been messing around raiding on beta with some pickups.  AD3 with AAs is 35% proc rate on AR.  I found that with a sense of timing on the ae, and proper planning (ie not just spamming attacks when they came up) it was fairly easy to avoid any AEs reliably.  You basically have to chose between max DPS and holding back arts to have to get your AR up, which isn't a bad deal.  Micromanaging your arts in relation to mob recasts, you could probably lose minimal to no DPS and have a good shot of avoiding all AEs.This current application of AR has plenty of skill involved, and I wouldn't want a similar to assassin/swash/bard 1 shot AE avoid + super long reuse.. current form is much better, imo.<div></div>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Vanyari wrote: <div></div>Ok, don't mean to de-rail this, but I gotta ask... what happened to Brigands around DoF?  I mean I freely admit I made my brigand pretty recently (after my main hit 70 and i got bored of my mystic... couple months maybe?), but just because I wanted to try a scout class as a change and liked the concept.  Has been a  blast too, but with all the "post DoF" comments I'm really curious why apparently so many people decided to start Brigand alts at that time. <hr> </blockquote>LU 13 gave brigands debuffs that made them desirable in all aspects of gameplay.DOF gave brigands AR (ancient spell) which revolutionized thier raid gameplay. </div> <div> </div> <div>prior to DoF there was no skill of aoe avodiance and no one had an issue with it. Since the inception of AR people boggled how can the devs justify an immunity skill. It requires no skill to use. And the majority here complaining have not tested the New AR on raids. A few have and they are saying it works. as stated by lyndros.</div> <div> </div> <div>If lyndros wants to make AR reliable. He needs to do this make the duration 10secs. this gives enough time for AR to stay up. THEN create a new ability to automatically trigger a 10 sec duration AR every 180secs. In conjuction w the proc AR. This will provide a reliable immunity. How? well if it comes down to that moment and AR proc did not go off. You can use the emergency AR to ensure your safety. AS long as you play your brignad well and time the AOE accordingly.  But processing AR will require some fail safe inclusion. </div><hr></blockquote>I like the idea of a 3 minute emergancy anti AE for 10 seconds.. but, it would have to be in teh form of an aa and lots of brigs would be mad at that suggestion.oh well. =)</div>

[shirpa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div></div><div>Okay if your debuffs lasted like 5 secs then yah I would have to give you that you got the shaft.......but all of them last longer 30secs which is plenty of time to make sure you debuffs stick and are back on before.  If you cant then you need to work on that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Get over it easy mode was taken from your class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It was a needed change to bring you to all of our lvls <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>L8er Tuppo</div><div>70 Berserker of Nagafen</div><div>Havoc</div><p>Message Edited by Urza69 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#9999cc" face="Verdana" size="2">Urza, you need to stop opening your mouth about things you know nothing about <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Dispatch, our best debuff, lasts 13 seconds. Shrouded Blade lasts 10 seconds. Secure lasts 24 seconds. Your counting skills are amazing. Unless you have tons of brigs in your raid, it is impossible to keep Dispatch on the mob with the 1 min recast. </font><div></div>

[Ni7r0kill32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Urza69 wrote:<div></div> <div>Okay if your debuffs lasted like 5 secs then yah I would have to give you that you got the shaft.......but all of them last longer 30secs which is plenty of time to make sure you debuffs stick and are back on before.  If you cant then you need to work on that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>Get over it easy mode was taken from your class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It was a needed change to bring you to all of our lvls <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>L8er Tuppo</div> <div>70 Berserker of Nagafen</div> <div>Havoc</div><p>Message Edited by Urza69 on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Is there a way to ban him from this forum? Nothing you say makes anysense nore do you know what your talking about. So please just leave....</div>

[toxe14567]

<div><blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:Been messing around raiding on beta with some pickups.  AD3 with AAs is 35% proc rate on AR.  I found that with a sense of timing on the ae, and proper planning (ie not just spamming attacks when they came up) it was fairly easy to avoid any AEs reliably.  You basically have to chose between max DPS and holding back arts to have to get your AR up, which isn't a bad deal.  Micromanaging your arts in relation to mob recasts, you could probably lose minimal to no DPS and have a good shot of avoiding all AEs.This current application of AR has plenty of skill involved, and I wouldn't want a similar to assassin/swash/bard 1 shot AE avoid + super long reuse.. current form is much better, imo.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Sounds good so far. Would be nice if they could add a little DPS / Haste buff to counter a loss in DPS (due to the AR timing).</div>

[Keldo]

That would be a good idea really, nothing overpowering about a small boost to DPS/Haste while AR is active (for a whole 7 sec) or maybe some kind of trigger when it fades, sort of like the bravado line for Swashbucklers.  With the new caps it would hardly be overpowered, but at the same time it really doesn't fit into the idea of the spell either.  We will see !<div></div>

[Jida]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:That would be a good idea really, nothing overpowering about a small boost to DPS/Haste while AR is active (for a whole 7 sec) or maybe some kind of trigger when it fades, sort of like the bravado line for Swashbucklers.  With the new caps it would hardly be overpowered, but at the same time it really doesn't fit into the idea of the spell either.  We will see !<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span>Actually, reflexes could be synonymous for speed... Therefore a short haste buff (10%) and not stacking with other haste procs may be in order... But that would only affect auto attack damage and proc damage... Not recasting of the proc. intresting idea</span></font></p></div>

[DarkMasterMan]

Hey, atleast its only AR, you should see whats being done to dispatch on the PvP server...its down to 800 mitigation, and rakes down to 1 magical...yeah...fun stuff no? 3520 on m1 dispatch down to 800, cheers soe<div></div>

[DarkMasterMan]

Woot, they should change dispatch to 800, in PvE too, then we'd REALLY see an uprising about it, and it might get changed...rake too! Yeah, go sony!<div></div>

[DarkMasterMan]

Could you guys back me up on the pvp forum? Its me and 5 pages of flames right now, not one other brigand replies...dispatch is down to 800 mit, and rake is down to 1k, at master versions of course... =(<div></div>

[Meio]

<blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:Been messing around raiding on beta with some pickups.  AD3 with AAs is 35% proc rate on AR.  I found that with a sense of timing on the ae, and proper planning (ie not just spamming attacks when they came up) it was fairly easy to avoid any AEs reliably.  You basically have to chose between max DPS and holding back arts to have to get your AR up, which isn't a bad deal.  Micromanaging your arts in relation to mob recasts, you could probably lose minimal to no DPS and have a good shot of avoiding all AEs.This current application of AR has plenty of skill involved, and I wouldn't want a similar to assassin/swash/bard 1 shot AE avoid + super long reuse.. current form is much better, imo.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Just a dumb question, if with the new AR you can still avoid all AOE's, why change it firsthand ? Just because it needs now some skill to do it ? I thought they did change it because it was overpowered and they didn't want a skill to avoid all AOE's ? If it can be still up every AOE it is till 'overpowered' like before, or is it that hard and need some uber skill to avoid all AOE so that only a few brigands will be able to do it ?<div></div>

[Keldo]

Because this one still has a chance to fail.  The person behind the wheel has to plan and time things in order to avoid AEs correctly.  Even then, there is a chance you might get hit if you are simply unlucky.  In MMOs players are slaves to the RNG more times than not, and a bad roll will happen every once in a while with this too.  Just now, instead of flying on autopilot with no real risk, we're full on manual and a loose stick in your hands.  Sometimes it doesn't always fly straight, but if you know what you are doing, you have a decent shot.<div></div>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jida wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:That would be a good idea really, nothing overpowering about a small boost to DPS/Haste while AR is active (for a whole 7 sec) or maybe some kind of trigger when it fades, sort of like the bravado line for Swashbucklers.  With the new caps it would hardly be overpowered, but at the same time it really doesn't fit into the idea of the spell either.  We will see !<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span>Actually, reflexes could be synonymous for speed... Therefore a short haste buff (10%) and not stacking with other haste procs may be in order... But that would only affect auto attack damage and proc damage... Not recasting of the proc. intresting idea</span></font></p></div><hr></blockquote>I thought about it.. a 1 second increase and 1% chance to proc per level of EOF aa would be a better suited addtion than the current extra 2% to proc. IMO of course.</div>

[Orpha]

/quote <DIV>Okay if your debuffs lasted like 5 secs then yah I would have to give you that you got the shaft.......but all of them last longer 30secs which is plenty of time to make sure you debuffs stick and are back on before.  If you cant then you need to work on that <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get over it easy mode was taken from your class <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0>  It was a needed change to bring you to all of our lvls <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc /quote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh my God! You're so funny. Your trying to sound like a big shot expert here and have no idea of the class you're taking about. Why don't you just go back to your zerkerboard (if they want you there!!!!) and enjoy the time till your class gets nerfed. I'm sure some of us will come by with a smile then!!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Orphano on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 AM</span>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>It was a needed change to bring you to all of our lvls <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc /quote</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's pretty funny, coming from a zerker. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meiox wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR>Been messing around raiding on beta with some pickups.  AD3 with AAs is 35% proc rate on AR.  I found that with a sense of timing on the ae, and proper planning (ie not just spamming attacks when they came up) it was fairly easy to avoid any AEs reliably.  You basically have to chose between max DPS and holding back arts to have to get your AR up, which isn't a bad deal.  Micromanaging your arts in relation to mob recasts, you could probably lose minimal to no DPS and have a good shot of avoiding all AEs.<BR><BR>This current application of AR has plenty of skill involved, and I wouldn't want a similar to assassin/swash/bard 1 shot AE avoid + super long reuse.. current form is much better, imo.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just a dumb question, if with the new AR you can still avoid all AOE's, why change it firsthand ? Just because it needs now some skill to do it ? I thought they did change it because it was overpowered and they didn't want a skill to avoid all AOE's ?<BR>If it can be still up every AOE it is till 'overpowered' like before, or is it that hard and need some uber skill to avoid all AOE so that only a few brigands will be able to do it ?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They could also design zone wide aoes to hit brigands and/or multiple aoe's that will make you choose which aoe to avoid.

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magus_Blue wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>It was a needed change to bring you to all of our lvls <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L8er Tuppo</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker of Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Havoc /quote</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's pretty funny, coming from a zerker. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If this clown is complaining about our DPS relative to a zerker then he has no idea what a zerker is capable of doing with the right AA/weapon/group setup.</P> <P> </P>

[DaLurk]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>freakplayer wrote:Urza69...<snip>pls someone take him to the zerker forums back!<div></div><hr></blockquote>Click <a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=236019"><span>Urza69</span></a> then <font color="#666666"><u>Add to Ignore List</u></font> . Maybe works.</div>

[Akacia]

<DIV>Give me a break Lockeye that it rewards a Brigand who can maximize the % chance of it to go off when a mob is suppose to be AEing, for one the AE timers are all over the map on mobs and especially if a Brigand uses another one of their skills - Traumatic Swipe, I guess having that on a mob will make it even more so that a skilled Brigand can get his Proc to hopefully go off at the right times. /sarcasm off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not give the Mit buffs of a Guardian go off with a CA proc as well so they can have them up when it's most needed? I guess that wouldn't make as much sense as having it as it is now with just a reuse timer on it like AR should just have been made to do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unbelievable </DIV>

[Goonch]

<P>Personally I plan on saving my stun attacks, for when AEs are about to hit and since Shrouded Blade and Sideswipe are on 10s timers I'm sure they will be up when I need them also.  Right now in beta with max AA points in dispatch and the reduction skill I have 35% to proc AR for 8.8 seconds.  I am confident that with proper timing I will be just as effective as I am now.   It will just take some practice and patience.</P>

[Damari]

Its still random Goonch and while your holding off your stuns your DPS will drop.  If anything your better off holding back your double up, if, double up works on this....

[Goonch]

Though random I still like the progress we've made thus far with getting this changed.

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>If lyndros wants to make AR reliable. He needs to do this make the duration 10secs. this gives enough time for AR to stay up. THEN create a new ability to automatically trigger a 10 sec duration AR every 180secs. In conjuction w the proc AR. This will provide a reliable immunity. How? well if it comes down to that moment and AR proc did not go off. You can use the emergency AR to ensure your safety. AS long as you play your brignad well and time the AOE accordingly.  But processing AR will require some fail safe inclusion. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Best idea yet imo ... Gungo for DEV !<BR>

[SKULL]

<DIV> <DIV>It looks like to me that the devs are dead set on changing AR as we know it and no matter what recommendations we make we are in for a major adjustment in how we play our beloved brigands. Yesterdays change was completly and utterly useless and only made the situation worse imo. Based on several hours of raiding with both versions I saw no difference in the proc rate or usefullness of AR during raids. I'm no math major and am not going to sit around wasting hours of time trying to decript a formula for your changes but imo because you changed the proc percentage and lowered the duration compared to the previous version of AR there is fundamentaly no difference in performance between your changes to AR. Mathamaticly they apprear to perform identically if not worse for the newer version. </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore I do not see why we are being penalized for taking an AA line that decreases the performance of AR by increasing the proc percentage to 38% and decreasing the duration to 7 sec. Once I got lulled into that false sense of security I realized I was forced to take the Tunare AA line in order to regain 1.8 sec in duration for a proc chance for AR to work. I understand that some other classes have the same issues with their AA lines as well...<U>Under no circumstance should any classes AA line be degraded for just selecting that line.</U> AA lines should only enhance our abilites and CA's not degrade them.</DIV> <DIV>My recommendation for this situation echos every other raiding brigand game wide and that is not to change AR at all. Please listen to the brigand community and leave AR unchanged. The AA lines need to be changed so that no ability or CA is degraded reguardless of of the choices we make. You are a little over one week away from release of this expansion and from what I can see continue to make sweeping changes in many aspects of this game. Don't make the same mistake as previous expansions and release an incomplete expansion. The numbers don't lie...the EQ2 player database is in decline and has been for sometime. Continue on the path that you are and it will continue to erode. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Partigas </DIV> <DIV>LVL 70 Brigand</DIV> <DIV>Vagabonds UNREST</DIV></DIV>

[Deeds]

<DIV>Agree Partigas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I allready gave up, screw it.  I started raiding without AR 2 weeks ago.  I did this so healers got used to healing and curing me, and it forced me to get the resists I needed.   So, I had to ask for  resist loot that I always passed on before, and had to have other resist gear made. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not going to sit there and hold off on my CAs in hope that when we think the aoe<EM> might</EM> go off, I will spam my CAs.  Even doing that, on a big boss fight,  you will still have to joust because, you are still at the mercy of the RNG and its just still too unreliable.</DIV>

[InquisitorR]

complete.  horse[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<div></div>

[PowertothePeople]

<DIV>I'm not in beta so if any brigand that is in beta can answer me a question, with AR do you have to sit there and watch the buff box to see if AR is up or is there some other way that is used to know that it is up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'm getting at here is during Raids im going to have to stare at my buff box to know its up or not, thats not fun to me. Thats just stupid, does it come up at the very top of the list or does it show in the middle or where ever the AR buff is under that like Agitate does (not like I watch for agitate, but have noticed it shows it under the buff when it goes off). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a question i was wondering about. </DIV>

[Magus_Bl]

<DIV>Yes, watch you buff bar is the only way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now I'm just going to plan on not using AR.  Every other scout has better AE avoid than the brigand does now, it that tells you anything. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[SKULL]

<P>The buff literally happens so fast that if it does proc I miss it a majority of the time. I dont have time to stare at my buff bar to ensure its up. The spell is useless and as stated previously just plan on raiding with it off. I personally won't use it in its current state. </P> <P>         As you can see from my post count i don't usually have much to complain about. To many people have lost sight of how much SOE has gotten right with this game. I try to pass that along to other players in game and usually get a nod in doing so. But what they propose to do to the brigand community if this change goes live is a travesty. </P> <P> </P> <P>Partigas</P> <P>Brigand Vagabonds Unrest</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by SKULLRK on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:51 AM</span>

[jarnpraetor]

When AR procs, there is an orange version of the AR icon (like the red one we used to get when taking damage) that appears right next to the yellow AR buff icon. It flashs the way most buffs do when they are about to expire.

[ag]

Yep, there have been improvements, as I've mentioned before, but I won't be using AR in it's current form either. Especially given we only raid 1-2 nights per week, there's no way I'm spending 5 achievement points for something that might proc for ~8 seconds and still requires me to spam combat arts. If I spam combat arts on Live today without AR, I pull aggro unless I'm in the perfect hate transfer group. The whole basic concept of forcing the Brigand to spam CA's to maybe get aggro to maybe get AR ... it's a bit silly.Makes choosing the Achievements easier, that's for sure! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Here's hoping we get to test Safehouse before Tuesday <i>at all</i>! /saluteEDIT: duration change!<p>Message Edited by agra on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[Anoixia]

<DIV>I would preffer the longer duration with smaller proc chance, it is a major hassle to always be looking for the orange thing.  At least that was my experience with the clockwork menace zone <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .  Random equals fun for me ^.^ but not constantly staring for a little icon is not </DIV>

[PowertothePeople]

Oh boy, what fun watching your buff box to see if it "might" have proc'd. I mean fine they want to nerf AR thats their choice, but who in the hell down at SOE thinks watching the buff box is fun. WIth all the buffs on me that have chances to proc from other classes and the buff box changing all the time, do they think the eye strain is fun?<div></div>

[Bhronn]

Not to mention that any dmg whatsoever drops the buff. If you had a dot on you when it procced. the next tick of the dot drops it and any dmg shield you encounter drops it also. <div></div>

[Thepiper]

Its a useless [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing proc i wont be using it and i will not be using aa's on it.  Ill just build my resists if there is to much of a dps loss ill betray to a swashy.  In fact im kinda looking forward to betraying to a swashy it should bring some what lost intrest back into the game for me.  And it also means i wont be playing a feckin useless class.

[InquisitorR]

Brigs arent useless now, its just that guilds will only want one or two on raids.  We are no longer the cool kid on the block, enter rangers and swashys =(<div></div>

[SKULL]

<DIV>Fellow Brigands,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This just got posted last night and is well worth reading. Its not my post so I can't take credit for it but I don't want that person to take any heat for something I am doing. In any event I feel its worth the risk to get the word out to everyone so they can think about how this is going to affect our community. Its huge and I really don't think people are aware of how much of a change this is to not only brigands but to the rest of the players in game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV> <DIV>1: Ar was effective for being able to get to a mob when 1st inc to land debuffs so that the other classes can land debuffs.  Thats no longer the case and runing in at 1st inc is a death sentence. Just got done with xxxx and testing with the raid with xxxx. ...... Drum roll please..... I got 1 shotted  by trash ae's as well as everyone else in range. Resists didnt matter because it was piercing dmg and at 55% pierce the dmg was between 9k and 10k. Wasnt a fluke either. Obviously we werent rdy for that TRASH MOB and had to do it 2 more times where it AE's for same dmg. The rest of the zone was the same deal. All in all I was 1 shotted by 8 of 16 different mobs on AE. Now I ve been trying real hard to get over a complete class revamp and not using AR on live and such. Jousting like my scout buddies because I chose to believe the statement posted by devs that said. AR was no longer needed because there arent any mobs who can 1 shot on AE anymore. <BR><BR><BR>Well so far.... everything the devs have posted on this subject as well as other like mob lowering of combat skills to match players, and brawler classes not taking spike dmg, and on and on is just not true. <BR><BR>This will be my last post on eof because not only am I tired of hearing myself complain, my guildmates are also.  <BR><BR>EDIT : btw just to be clear on this, Every AE that I was 1 shotted on, My resist were 8k+ except for 1 cold AE and obviously the piercing ae. Most are like cheldraks AE where the closer you are the harder it hits. Since Im up a mobs butt that pretty much ment death. Sooo I stood back in stealth, let the tank get agro, watched the AE go off , went thru every CA I had and backed out to range.  Sure if thats what we get to do now thats ok, except most of the named have mem wipes and the mob runs to the real dps casters, AE's and killed 5 to 10 people with 1 shot.  And at the end of the night when my 500 total zone dps came around I got the satisfaction of hearing other debuffers saying they couldnt land thier debuffs . But all of you other classes keep thinking this nerf is only about brigs. thats right keep on thinking it. <BR><BR>And yea staying in and trying to spam CA's for the AR proc was a no go because low and behold theres a dmg shield and/or the other AE thats a dot hits you before your ar goes off. It was 1 or the other.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Partigas</DIV> <DIV>70 Brigand of Vagabonds</DIV> <DIV>UNREST</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vaeine]

<P>about time they make the game harder, is to easy the way it is</P> <P> </P>

[SKULL]

<P>Want to elaborate on that last comment? Seems you posted a similar response on several threads. Curious to know if you have any data to support your comment on this thread or the others.</P> <P> </P> <P>Partigas</P> <P>70 Brigand of Vagabonds</P> <P>UNREST</P>