Clarification

[Nhuman]

<DIV>Im pretty new to EQ2 after only about 3-4 weeks or randomly rerolling chars ive limited down my selection of my first "main" character.  That being said I have a few questions regarding Brigands rolls and some clarificatin of terms.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Ive used the search function but I really havent found the exact thing im looking for regarding soloability.  Ive read that brigs can solo, cant solo, and should/shouldnt solo seems everyones opinions are different.   Basically it seems to me that Brigs are positional dps meaning their dps output is dependent upon positioning.  That being said assuming I could keep the mobs where i wanted them through all the stuns can I expect a good amount of DPS to keep soloing a viable option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Ive seen posts refering to Brigs and swashes as t2 DPS.  The main character that Im enjoying right now is a SK and I guess they are considered T4 DPS so basically with similar gear can I assume that they kill faster than a SK but probably lack the survivability of a Sk due to the armor/lifetap difference?  Also exactly how many tiers of dps are there:robotsurprised: I hate learning new terms lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Group and raid situations im sure our main goal is debuffing which im fine with, but are we also decent DMG dealers in that we can still bring alot to the fight?  While playing my Dirge I had alot of people crying that I wasnt contributing to the group and kicked me from the group cause my dps wasnt up to snuff (low to mid 30's) NOw i agree that people with those type of opinions are probably not the best to play with but in reality until i hit the 60's to 70's ill probably be dealing with alot of that so its nice to know what to expect when/if i try a brigand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> **As a reference to the DPS question, compare our dps to a summoner since out of the "DPS" classes i have the most experience with those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats all i can think of right now so any answers and further explanations would help and thanks in advance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nhuman wrote:<div>Im pretty new to EQ2 after only about 3-4 weeks or randomly rerolling chars ive limited down my selection of my first "main" character.  That being said I have a few questions regarding Brigands rolls and some clarificatin of terms.</div> <div> </div> <div>1.  Ive used the search function but I really havent found the exact thing im looking for regarding soloability.  Ive read that brigs can solo, cant solo, and should/shouldnt solo seems everyones opinions are different.   Basically it seems to me that Brigs are positional dps meaning their dps output is dependent upon positioning.  That being said assuming I could keep the mobs where i wanted them through all the stuns can I expect a good amount of DPS to keep soloing a viable option.    <font color="#ff0000">soloing is gear / spell / skill dependant. If you dont have at LEAST the gear and spells, you will find soloing difficult.. skill will come with time =)</font></div> <div> </div> <div>2.  Ive seen posts refering to Brigs and swashes as t2 DPS.  The main character that Im enjoying right now is a SK and I guess they are considered T4 DPS so basically with similar gear can I assume that they kill faster than a SK but probably lack the survivability of a Sk due to the armor/lifetap difference?  Also exactly how many tiers of dps are there:robotsurprised: I hate learning new terms lol.    <font color="#ff0000">brigands kill much faster than sk's.. the better yoru spells.. the faster you kill. You should be able to solo faster and more efficently than sk.. +brigs get a lifetap poison.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>3.  Group and raid situations im sure our main goal is debuffing which im fine with, but are we also decent DMG dealers in that we can still bring alot to the fight?  While playing my Dirge I had alot of people crying that I wasnt contributing to the group and kicked me from the group cause my dps wasnt up to snuff (low to mid 30's) NOw i agree that people with those type of opinions are probably not the best to play with but in reality until i hit the 60's to 70's ill probably be dealing with alot of that so its nice to know what to expect when/if i try a brigand.</div> <div>     <font color="#ff0000">wanna make people mad with your dirge... drop all your group buffs and activate all your self buffs.. then tell them to quit griping about yoru dps.. dirge sacrifces self dps for group dps.. and as you level up, the better you become.brig's are flavor of the month.. my honest opinon.. stick with your dirge if you have fun playin it.. ignorant people should get to you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div> <div> **As a reference to the DPS question, compare our dps to a summoner since out of the "DPS" classes i have the most experience with those.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thats all i can think of right now so any answers and further explanations would help and thanks in advance.  </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Twoboxer2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nhuman wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Ive used the search function but I really havent found the exact thing im looking for regarding soloability.  Ive read that brigs can solo, cant solo, and should/shouldnt solo seems everyones opinions are different.   Basically it seems to me that Brigs are positional dps meaning their dps output is dependent upon positioning.  That being said assuming I could keep the mobs where i wanted them through all the stuns can I expect a good amount of DPS to keep soloing a viable option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I play and raid several L70 classes, and posted in this thread:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=13881&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=13881&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>some stuff that may give you a feel for the Brigand and soloing. Rest assured, soloing *is* a viable option for the Rogue. No one can tell you how well you will solo heroic encounters without knowing the quality of your gear and CAs. Suffice to say that once you make enough investment at any one level, green heroics should not be a problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>If you want Soloing to be more than just a viable option, choose another class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Ive seen posts refering to Brigs and swashes as t2 DPS.  The main character that Im enjoying right now is a SK and I guess they are considered T4 DPS so basically with similar gear can I assume that they kill faster than a SK but probably lack the survivability of a Sk due to the armor/lifetap difference?  Also exactly how many tiers of dps are there:robotsurprised: I hate learning new terms lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>There are classes that do less DPS than SKs, but no one cares enough to label them as DPS classes. And it doesn't matter. As a SK you will not be invited to a raid because of your DPS. As a Brigand, you are welcome because of your personal DPS, your AE immunity, and your debuffs . . . all of which show up dramatically in a Parse.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Most Raid Leaders would not choose to invite multiple SKs to a raid - and would go with none without batting an eye -  but would easily accept multiple Brigands.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Group and raid situations im sure our main goal is debuffing which im fine with, but are we also decent DMG dealers in that we can still bring alot to the fight?  While playing my Dirge I had alot of people crying that I wasnt contributing to the group and kicked me from the group cause my dps wasnt up to snuff (low to mid 30's) NOw i agree that people with those type of opinions are probably not the best to play with but in reality until i hit the 60's to 70's ill probably be dealing with alot of that so its nice to know what to expect when/if i try a brigand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Make no mistake - the Brigand is a DPS class that debuffs - it is NOT a debuffing class. I've not seen an experience group reject a Brigand, or a Summoner. Well-played Dirges don't show up in parses like the Brigand and Summoner do, and so a lot of inexperienced players avoid including them in groups. Because they are unpopular in that way, there are few around when it comes time for raiding . . . so there is much demand. And little competiton. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> **As a reference to the DPS question, compare our dps to a summoner since out of the "DPS" classes i have the most experience with those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I play a 70 Necro as well, similar play style to the Conjurer. The Summoners *should* out-dps the Brigand, but not always. Because it depends on the encounter and the quality of gear, CAs/Spells. and the player at the keyboard. I suppose you should expect that Predators and Summoners should out-dps you, often will not, and that has no impact on the desirability of including a Brigand in Raids or exp groups.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>The Brig's DPS isn't as good as the Swash, but it is plenty good enough. And then there's all the other raid benefits the Brig brings.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats all i can think of right now so any answers and further explanations would help and thanks in advance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Twoboxer2 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Nhuman wrote: <div> </div><div>3.  Group and raid situations im sure our main goal is debuffing which im fine with, but are we also decent DMG dealers in that we can still bring alot to the fight?  While playing my Dirge I had alot of people crying that I wasnt contributing to the group and kicked me from the group cause my dps wasnt up to snuff (low to mid 30's) NOw i agree that people with those type of opinions are probably not the best to play with but in reality until i hit the 60's to 70's ill probably be dealing with alot of that so its nice to know what to expect when/if i try a brigand.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#66ff00">Make no mistake - the Brigand is a DPS class that debuffs - it is NOT a debuffing class. I've not seen an experience group reject a Brigand, or a Summoner. Well-played Dirges don't show up in parses like the Brigand and Summoner do, and so a lot of inexperienced players avoid including them in groups. Because they are unpopular in that way, there are few around when it comes time for raiding . . . so there is much demand. And little competiton. </font></div> <div> </div> <div> **As a reference to the DPS question, compare our dps to a summoner since out of the "DPS" classes i have the most experience with those.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#66ff00">I play a 70 Necro as well, similar play style to the Conjurer. The Summoners *should* out-dps the Brigand, but not always. Because it depends on the encounter and the quality of gear, CAs/Spells. and the player at the keyboard. I suppose you should expect that Predators and Summoners should out-dps you, often will not, and that has no impact on the desirability of including a Brigand in Raids or exp groups.</font></div> <div><font color="#66ff00"></font> </div> <div><font color="#66ff00">The Brig's DPS isn't as good as the Swash, but it is plenty good enough. And then there's all the other raid benefits the Brig brings.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Thats all i can think of right now so any answers and further explanations would help and thanks in advance. </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote>i need to argue a few points here. first, the brigand class is most needed for its debuffs, not its dps. sure, we can do a decent amount of damage, but if we're not devitalizing, raking, and dispatching, then we're easily replaced with any other dps class, or even another buffer. i won't say that we can't parse high and do a lot of damage, because we can. it's a matter of us getting the right raid group setup (one that gives us enough haste, dps, and proc buffs). but truly, the brigand class is just a mediocre dps class (on its own) without its debuffs. the debuffs are the core of our class definition, and we're not picked up on raids for our dps. nearly every one of our combat arts has a debuff of some sort associated with it - i call it a debuffing class.second, our damage output is dependent not only on the spell level of our abilities (adept 1 vs master 1) and our gear, but also on the buffs that we receive from our group, and the debuffs on the enemy. i've used a parser and tracked my damage over solo fights, grouped fights with varied setups, and raid encounters, and having the right buffs makes a huge difference. so before you go and believe someone's high parse as the average for all brigands in any situation, remember that it was probably in a raid with a strong group set-up. brigand dps, on its own, falls somewhere below predators, swashbucklers, summoners, and probably sorcerors; but, coupled with our debuffs, it's still enough to make the class powerful and useful in just about any group.</div>

[Jeffmaster]

<P>I see brigs parse top 5 pretty often. But like mentionned we are Debuff 1st then DPS. Lets just say that our DPS is insanly good for our utility in raids. Devitalize/dispatch/double up and Amazing reflexes are the class defining abilities.</P> <P>I never have any problems to solo. Just keep all spells adept3 or better and gear mastercrafted or better and you won't have any trouble.</P> <P>BTW, those people who kicked your dirge are plain stupid.</P>

[Crimson Dragon]

right, i've even topped the parse before, but on my own vs another class on their own, i'm not better than an assassin. give a brigand, or pretty much any dps class, the right buffs and you're golden.<div></div>

[Zagats]

<DIV>I've never been asked into a group for the use of Malicious Assault or even Double Up...</DIV> <DIV>I HAVE been asked to group because they want that beautiful Dispatch.</DIV> <DIV>And because we (brigands) can constantly keep a mob's mitigation vs both physical and magical damages, we will continue to be reinvited to groups and raids if we play our class right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also have a SK, although he's lvl 31, but I find him to be getting a bit boring.  Just stands there and casts the CA's.  I guess im spoiled from having to move around so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I started a coercer, and he's lvl 18, but is very fun to play because of the level of difficulty that comes from knowing how to mez, how to charm, break charm properly (without getting yourself killed), what to do if charm breaks before you wanted it to, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything comes down to personal preference when choosing which class to play though.</DIV>

[Twoboxer2]

<P>I don't disagree with anything you guys said . . . well, except perhaps that the Brigand is "mediocre DPS class" . . . if it were important, I'd ask for clarification and the rest of your list. But I get your point, so it's not.</P> <P>I believe that if a Brigand delivered their DPS and for some reason Dispatch, etc. only helped the Brigand . . . well, no Raid Leader would kick a Brigand out of a raid for a SK. Could you have a raid where all DPS were Assassins? No buffers, no other scouts, etc? Probably. What would the DPS be? Dunno, don't really care.</P> <P>Does a Brigand get invited to raids for their Debuffs and not for their DPS? Dunno, don't care, it wasn't my question or the OP's.</P> <P>I was responding to the <STRONG>OP's concern</STRONG>, which should be kept in mind when looking at responses. He didn't want to be a buffer alone, didn't want to be rejected because of garbage-dps, and I assured him he would not be. And I'll stand by that.</P><p>Message Edited by Twoboxer2 on <span class=date_text>10-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[Crimson Dragon]

mediocre without our debuffs and the right buffs is what i said. or at least what meant.<span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Lyasa]

i get invited to raids cause i tell them they can't do it without me. and when they fail and i wasn't there, i say "hey i wasn't there, of course you didn't do it" it's almost ingrained. (when we mess up and i was there, it's all the ranger's fault, not sure how it started. prolly by a mezzer) on a more serious note, the people that kicked the dirge were idjits. dirge's make the group do more damage, instead of doing mass damage by themselves. brigands are usually wanted for dps AND debuffs. because we can do both, it's expected. we aren't the best dps class. we are one of the best defense debuffing classes, post 50. and i solo stuff in SoS all the time. which might be why i get bored and evac before i finish what i was there to do. soloing is boring. <div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fenrihr wrote:<BR>i get invited to raids cause i tell them they can't do it without me. <BR>and when they fail and i wasn't there, i say "hey i wasn't there, of course you didn't do it"<BR><BR>it's almost ingrained. <BR>(when we mess up and i was there, it's all the ranger's fault, not sure how it started. prolly by a mezzer)<BR><BR><BR><BR>on a more serious note, the people that kicked the dirge were idjits.<BR>dirge's make the group do more damage, instead of doing mass damage by themselves.<BR><BR>brigands are usually wanted for dps AND debuffs. because we can do both, it's expected.<BR>we aren't the best dps class. <BR>we are one of the best defense debuffing classes, post 50.<BR><BR><BR>and i solo stuff in SoS all the time. which might be why i get bored and evac before i finish what i was there to do. soloing is boring.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yea but 22 of us can take down taldedor with a tank/healer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> [Removed for Content] !!

[ravenscale]

<DIV>My 2cp</DIV> <DIV>as a dirge is my main i can tell you solo wise its a lot easier with my brig A LOT easier</DIV> <DIV>dps i find anyone that doesn't say we are good dps laughable personally considering on a 16k to 18k dps raid i can make top 8 on a parse and i have no fabled weapons on my brig doesn't happen on a regular basis but im sure it will once i get better weapons(i do have plenty of masters and AD3 to get me up on dps) where is a dirge i have to try my hardest to make top 10 but that's not his job.</DIV> <DIV>as far as debuffs i think dirges and brigs are equal in that but in a diff way where as a dirge has more variety and less effective debuffs the effect the entire encounter as opposed to just 1 target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i got groups all the time with my bard rarely with my brig then again i chose not to group a lot with my brig considering how easy i found it to solo..... but then again with the exception of healers and maybe guards any class is easier to solo with then a bard lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as SKs i cannot comment on them with reasonable confedance seeing as i dont play one but yes i can say that raids dont often go for them and more often never go with 2</DIV><p>Message Edited by ravenscale on <span class=date_text>10-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>