Holy Sh.... Shoe Size!

[NemaLVey]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=102219#M102219" target=_blank>Incomming stun nerfage</A>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99ff>This does not bode well for soloing for all non-enchanter classes.  Though I am happy they are getting much needed loving, they shouldn't need to make everyone else across the board less effective or different in terms, of playstyle/abilities.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99ff>Must begin a chant, or a rant... or something!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99ff>Namely this section I am concerned about....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Enchanter utility diminishes with increased group size.</FONT></STRONG> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the time you have a full group, the combined abilities of the group members often provided enough control to chain-stun/control the primary target and reduce the threat it posed on the Fighter. An additional encounter on the Fighter did not pose much of a threat since the amount of damage that the Fighter received was already reduced from chain-stunning that went on with the first encounter. This made many group encounters trivial, especially after level 50 where all stun durations receive a small boost to duration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changes: Control durations or reuse timers are generally lowered across all non-enchanter classes, and are better balanced across subclass pairs than before. Some Stun effects have been replaced with Stifles and Dazes which are not used as often and do not completely incapacitate an enemy. An Enchanter’s ability to control will have more utility in group settings than it did before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example: abilities with Knockdown effects that stunned for 4 seconds have been reduced to 2.5 seconds.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 PM</span>

[Grim0]

<div></div>I don't care if you nerf PvM stuns because they "make encounters trivial," but if you nerf the Brigand's stuns in PvP, it will ruin the class. This class is ALL ABOUT THE STUNS IN PvP. If those stuns are cut in duration it will be a SIGNIFICANT NERF IN RELATIVE POWER LEVEL TO CLASSES THAT DO NOT DEPEND ON STUNS IN PVP. It will probably also make me quit the game. I'm not about to put up with a game where designers randomly nerf classes in PvP without putting any thought into balance.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Grim001 on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 PM</span>

[Jida]

This is going to make my solo life hell =(Wizzy's still being able to solo ^^^ Yellow named.. I'll possibly be reduced back down to ^ yellowed.Oh well...Wen't through changes as a templar, I expected them with a brigand.<div></div>

[NemaLVey]

<P><FONT color=#cc99ff>I certainly do care they are reducing stun durations PvE and PvP.  Its taking away our ability to use our large array of postional CAs, that we must be flanking, or dead on its [Removed for Content] to use.  While we have, 3-4 attacks we can use frontal?  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>I am all for Brigands thru and thru regardless of what they combat.  This is a pain horrible idea, and effects us all ( well, cept for raiding ).</FONT></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 AM</span>

[Grim0]

If you nerf Brigand stun duration in PvP it will ruin the class. This class is all about the stuns.<div></div>

[NemaLVey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grim001 wrote:<BR>If you nerf Brigand stun duration in PvP it will ruin the class. This class is all about the stuns.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#cc99ff>Get a grip on reality.... it effects Brigands in general, not just the PvP ones.  Ever consider how this may effect soloers? Or people who duo?</FONT> </P> <P> </P>

[Grim0]

It will have a more detrimental effect in PvP than in PvM.The fights are several times shorter, so it affects PvP to a much larger degree.For example, if you kill a monster in 60 seconds, and you were able to stun them for 10 seconds of that fight, you prevented only 16% of the incoming damage.If you kill a player in 20 seconds and you were able to stun them for 10 seconds (which is possible, although there would be a gap between the stuns due to immunity timers) then you prevented 50% of their opportunity to attack you.However, it's still very bad for solo PvM. How will we use all of our backshots? Honestly though, I'm more worried about the results in PvP than PvM.<div></div>

[Jida]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>NemaLVey wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#cc99ff">Ever consider how this may effect soloers?</font></p><hr></blockquote>As a soloer... I'm scared.. I need a hug =(</div>

[NemaLVey]

<P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Grim... dunno how to tell you this discreately, so I guess direct is the only way.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>When you say things like this:</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grim001 wrote:<BR>It will have a more detrimental effect in PvP than in PvM.<BR><BR>The fights are several times shorter, so it affects PvP to a much larger degree.<BR><BR>For example, if you kill a monster in 60 seconds, and you were able to stun them for 10 seconds of that fight, you prevented only 16% of the incoming damage.<BR><BR>If you kill a player in 20 seconds and you were able to stun them for 10 seconds (which is possible, although there would be a gap between the stuns due to immunity timers) then you prevented 50% of their opportunity to attack you.<BR><BR>However, it's still very bad for solo PvM. How will we use all of our backshots? Honestly though, I'm more worried about the results in PvP than PvM.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>First, your not helping the cause for no Brig nerfs on PvP when you say you can stun then 50% of the fight while you beat them with little to no damage to yourself.  Its actually screaming "Nerf the BaJebus" out of me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Secondly, its kinda disheartening to see how a 20 second fight is way more important than a 1 minute fight.  Mathmatically speaking that is.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>I understand your allegiances, but lets be clear... stuns are what make Brigs.  Not PvE, nor PvP.  This whole PvP is better, or more important type thinking will not win you brownie points when trying to stop this nerf.  Especially after what you just said.  The objective is to not let this happen to Brigs... period.</FONT><BR></P> <P><BR> </P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 AM</span>

[NemaLVey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NemaLVey wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Ever consider how this may effect soloers?</FONT><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As a soloer... I'm scared.. I need a hug =(<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#cc99ff>There, there, everything will be alright, soon as we kidnap and brainwash some of these Devs.</FONT>

[NemaLVey]

<P><FONT color=#cc99ff>And here ya go Grim, your still safe....</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>PvP: duration of control spells in PvP are set independently and are not automatically half duration of the PvE version. Because the control revamp is PvE oriented, most short duration stun and knockdown effects on abilities will retain their duration if they aren't already longer than the adjusted PvE versions.<BR></P>

[verydanger]

<div></div><div><i>Changes: Control durations or reuse timers are generally lowered across all non-enchanter classes, and are better balanced across subclass pairs than before. Some Stun effects have been replaced with Stifles and Dazes which are not used as often and do not completely incapacitate an enemy. An Enchanter’s ability to control will have more utility in group settings than it did before.</i></div> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Example: abilities with Knockdown effects that stunned for 4 seconds have been reduced to 2.5 seconds.</i>Hrrm, what to make of this. Think only our ranged stun has the Knockdown effect, so that one will be a 2.5 second stun. Deceitful Blow and Restrain however might be found as stifles/dazes soon...? Man thats scares me... Reuse timers lowered? Seems kinda counterproductive when you just made a big deal about lowering durations?"Better balanced across subclass pairs than before"...? Cant help but to feel brigands might be THE main target for this change. I know swashbucklers have two stuns also, but they are kind of situational both. Bruiser should be even more worried though I guess... but like, why is this change needed? Hasnt a balance between subclasses already been founded, where control abilities plays a part?Now, I am all for enchanter love (if this indeed serves that purpose) and making heroic encounters more challenging, dont get me wrong. Its the soloing side of things that makes me really nervous now, for the first time ever.  Why does my soloing have to take a hit so that  class Y can perform better in groups? Edit: Scratch that last sentence... there are classes that are far worse off for soloing than brigands, even if/after this goes live. I do totally understand the reasoning behind these changes, and if it means brigand soloing will take a hit then I wont complain (think we are higher-end soloers as it stands right now). And its not like soloing balance ever has existed in the game, nor has the developers shown much intrest in introducing it...But maybe there's a workaround somehow? Introduce a new 'control state', not Stun/Mezz/Stifle/Daze/Root/Fear, but kinda... errr, Can Still Attack The Target In Front But Forced To Face That Direction For The Whole Duration. Sorry thats the best I could do... like Walk the Plank, except it wouldnt turn the mob.Now scouts, who rely on positional attacks, could have such a component added to their stifles/dazes, if thats what we're gonna have from now on. This way we could make use of ALL our abilities while soloing, without having stuns that become overpowered in groups.Guess this is a whole other issue though, and not something that will be looked into until the 'Soloing Balance' patch is here... if thats ever gonna happen.</div><div></div><p>Message Edited by verydanger on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 AM</span>

[PIexor]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>PvP: duration of control spells in PvP are set independently and are not automatically half duration of the PvE version. Because the control revamp is PvE oriented, most short duration stun and knockdown effects on abilities will retain their duration if they aren't already longer than the adjusted PvE versions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From: Lockeye<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> <BR>It seems that my pvp brigand is safe, it will just be harder/impossible to solo heroic nameds if there are no Qeynos folk around, but then again most classes can't solo any heroic nameds except for the bathrobe types. </DIV>

[ag]

<i>Disclaimer: There is a TON of sarcasm in this post. If you don't like sarcasm, skip to the next post, we'll both be happier in the end.</i>Not sure why they had to destroy one of our signature roles (stun locking) to try and improve Enchanters. I still can't wrap my head around that. Brigands != Enchanters. Brigands != Enchanters.. /boggleAnd it's not like this is good for Enchanters, either. Right now, the only thing keep my Coercer alt alive is stun duration. Without them, I'm a smear on the ground.If stun locking is so bad, why did it take this long to fix it? There's thousands of bugs (hello, poison stacking?) that have been around for so long it's laughable, but just cause we can, we're going to change the duration on all stuns. We can't give you a log file message so that you know when half your poisons proc, no no, but we're going to reduce all your stun durations. That's SO awesome, thank you SOE. That makes me much happier, and much more likely to continue playing your game!Anyone else notice the lovely bug that crept in with LU22, the one that doesn't log any opening combat art damage? Yeah, isn't that one great? But hold on, that's ok, leave that bug alone, we've got to reduce the duration of all stuns! We're going to lose subscribers unless we reduce the duration of all stuns! FOR THE LOVE OF BRELL AND ALL THE CHILDREN NOW LIVING OR DEAD, REDUCE THE DURATION OF ALL STUNS!!! ... yeah.It's almost like they needed a way to stop stun locking, so they looked at the least played class (coercer) and said hm, how can we make it seem like we're improving them, but still remove stun locking. Spin Doctors, spin this!I try to remain positive, I really do, but after seeing nothing but negative change, it becomes more and more difficult.

[Kegofbud]

<P>  I saw Nema's posts in the original thread and before I posted a new thread I figured I'd check, good thing I did. I guess I knew someone had to have already done this. Good job Nema. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> This is going to hurt a lot. Don't think for a minute this will be something small. They'll go overboard from what they are saying now, maybe adjust it more after complaining. We only have those few frontal attacks. Up close, really we have 2 heroic stuns being Deceitful blow ad Subdue. They last long enough to position and get 2-3 attacks off.  Cheap Shot is good for one hit so I won't bother with it here. The length of our stuns do not lend themselves to "crowd control". They are for  positional melee. I see "crowd control" stuns and mezzes as the ones that last 8 sec and longer. Using a few second stun to stop a mob, really doesn't enable me to fight 2 mobs at once. </P> <P> Nah, right now, I view LU24 as a black eye coming. It won't be a big deal for raiding, but anyone who solos will need to really take a hard look at this. It's going to come, because they NEVER listen to us when we tell them why not to do things. Never. I think what upsets me most are broken things in this game that never get fixed, while they find time to nerf items and repeatedly change the dynamics of the game. Priorities are all wrong.</P>

[diggers]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR><BR>I try to remain positive, I really do, but after seeing nothing but negative change, it becomes more and more difficult.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>diggers </P> <P>splitpaw</P>

[Crimson Dragon]

just shoot me nowi don't care about enchanters.... i don't <b>ever</b> hear them complain about not having anything to do in groups, so they must be doing something.ugh.... i can't take this....<div></div>

[Timesquare]

<P>Daze is the new name that replaces Pacify</P> <P>pacify ? same use as in EQ1? if so that will cool</P>

[KlausFlouride]

I think how SoE is looking at this is Enchanters weren't broken but all other classes were. This does effect the 3 toons I play(Warlock, Templar-bye bye 8sec stun, and Brigand).

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>agra wrote:<i>Disclaimer: There is a TON of sarcasm in this post. If you don't like sarcasm, skip to the next post, we'll both be happier in the end.</i>Not sure why they had to destroy one of our signature roles (stun locking) to try and improve Enchanters. I still can't wrap my head around that. Brigands != Enchanters. Brigands != Enchanters.. /boggleAnd it's not like this is good for Enchanters, either. Right now, the only thing keep my Coercer alt alive is stun duration. Without them, I'm a smear on the ground.If stun locking is so bad, why did it take this long to fix it? There's thousands of bugs (hello, poison stacking?) that have been around for so long it's laughable, but just cause we can, we're going to change the duration on all stuns. We can't give you a log file message so that you know when half your poisons proc, no no, but we're going to reduce all your stun durations. That's SO awesome, thank you SOE. That makes me much happier, and much more likely to continue playing your game!Anyone else notice the lovely bug that crept in with LU22, the one that doesn't log any opening combat art damage? Yeah, isn't that one great? But hold on, that's ok, leave that bug alone, we've got to reduce the duration of all stuns! We're going to lose subscribers unless we reduce the duration of all stuns! FOR THE LOVE OF BRELL AND ALL THE CHILDREN NOW LIVING OR DEAD, REDUCE THE DURATION OF ALL STUNS!!! ... yeah.It's almost like they needed a way to stop stun locking, so they looked at the least played class (coercer) and said hm, how can we make it seem like we're improving them, but still remove stun locking. Spin Doctors, spin this!I try to remain positive, I really do, but after seeing nothing but negative change, it becomes more and more difficult.<hr></blockquote>yyyyyep.played a warden from my first day in the game.... LU13 and the combat changes very quickly turned me dark and cynical.... started leveling my brigand, finally running around in some end-game stuff with him.now they want to come along and sweep my second character out from underneath me.... sure, in groups this doesn't really mean too much. but i can barely solo blue mobs without stunning and getting behind them.so frustrating.<span>:smileysad:</span></div>