Two Brigs at one Raid

[pAtRaT]

Dear all, well perhaps you already discussed that topic, but i wasn´t able to find such ...<span>:smileysurprised:</span> my question is, whether 2 brigas make sense or not. In special, does the spells and abilities stack ? If not, isn´t it better to have both classes (swashi & briga)  in raid ? Thanks guys for clarifiend these issues. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Tokam]

If the first pirate doesn't steal all the loot, then the Brig No. 2 will

[pAtRaT]

hugh ... does anyone have more senseful answer ? *hehe* <div></div>

[Mathe]

<P>I'm not sure if Swashbuckler and Brigand CAs raid, some might since there are some lines which are not identical. However, many subclasses have abilities which don't stack with the same class (Paladin ward and Shadowknight reactive), and considering how devastating certain debuffs could be in conjunction, it seems likely at least some don't stack.</P> <P>However, at least most debuffs will not stack with the same subclass ones. I can't say for all debuffs, but most won't. The strongest one will over write a weaker one, but a weaker one will not over write a stronger one.</P>

[Shidonya]

Stacking is a problem as with all classes one benefit to two brigs would be alternating Dispatch it is only 13 seconds and a 72 second recast so with two brigs you could have the mob dispatched 26 seconds instead of 13.

[pAtRaT]

well shidonya ... thanks for this answer, but i´d like to get deeper in that discussion. I tested these stacking things with 2 brigands at the same level debuffing enemies. if you have directly the enemy in target you will see these little icons saying which debuffs are at the same time working. nearly every spell of the brigand stack with the other , exceptional 2 spells. But as I heard these doubled icons are almost NO indicator that both spells are really working at the same time. you know what i mean? So it would be very helpful if more brigands or raiding-people could prove my suggestions. thanks very much for any reply. so long.... <div></div>

[Goonch]

Well from personal experieince I can tell you its great.  We pretty much always have 2 brigands at almost every raid and having dispatch up more often is nice.  The only time I ever run into a problem using a CA is with the occassional overlap in Double Up.

[Shidonya]

<P>Even if they do stack which I haven't looked into there would be a problem with caps. It's been proven that our debuffs cap out mitigation at 50% on heroic and below mobs, of course a raid mobs being tougher to test may take more of our debuffs who knows. I believe we could still cap out with our 3 main debuffs (RR/Dev/Dis) even on epics.</P> <P>However, if one could study an epic encounter with two Brigs and see if RR and Dev stack and with both lasting until we can recast (<EM>pretty much permenant through fight</EM>) I guess we could see mit drops of -3920 vs. phys and -3968 vs. all other (~<EM>40% mit debuff</EM>) pretty much removing the need for Dispatch but no parse studies have been done on that to my knowledge.</P> <P>And if such stacking did exist you can bet your bottom dollar the dev's would not stand for that, basically a permenant debuff of over 3900 on an epic mob just wouldn't do. However they've overlooked stacking issues before and with very few guilds having two Brigs level 60 or higher it may be something they've not concerned themselves with.</P> <P>Basically to prove it you'd have to start a parser on a raid without stacking brigs and see damage output then on another attempt on this raid stack brigs and calculate damage differences between both raids. I'd suggest not using dispatch to keep from capping so you can get a true read on other two debuffs and thus tell if 1. cap is reached on second raid (w/out dispatch) and 2. if damage increased from both brigs debuffs over just one's debuffs. If the damage increase is much greater I'd say your on to something unfortunately with a raid of 24 test results would be very weak as raid makeup is much more complex than single group and with all kinds of factors the damage could increase from other classes not invoived in both raids.</P>

[Atrocity]

As mentioned having 2 brigs in a raid is great for keeping dispatch up for a longer duration.  The difference this makes is fairly significant.  As far as the debuffs stacking I'm not sure.  I have seen dual devitalize icons up on a mob at the same time, however I doubt that the debuf was addative.  The testing approach is interesting, but good luck finding 22 other folks who are interested enough to raid with 2 brigands who won't use dispatch in the interest of science <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[kyth]

    2 brigands on a raid is nice.  You get 2x the duration of Dispatch, that alone is worth its weight in gold.  Also you now have 2 people capable of doing 2kdps that are immune to aes.  Stacking isnt much of an issue really.  The debuff values wont stack but you should be able to use all your ca's w/o "will not take hold" messages.  So in short 2 brigands on a raid is a ++. <div></div>

[Shidonya]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Atrocity wrote:<BR>As mentioned having 2 brigs in a raid is great for keeping dispatch up for a longer duration.  The difference this makes is fairly significant.  As far as the debuffs stacking I'm not sure.  I have seen dual devitalize icons up on a mob at the same time, however I doubt that the debuf was addative.  <FONT color=#ff9933>The testing approach is interesting, but good luck finding 22 other folks who are interested enough to raid with 2 brigands who won't use dispatch in the interest of science</FONT> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Muhahaha, So true. Just have to clobber them all to make them see the light. </P>

[Mathe]

It is easy to confirm that two icons do not mean that both abilities are stacked, even if they are different spells all together. You can have multiple Pathfinding icons, but they don't add. Priest mitigation buffs do not stack, you get the highest one, even between different Priest classes. If 2 Brigands debuffs stacked, logically more than 2 would stack, too, and obviously that would be overpowering. Damage debuffs do stack because they are part of the damage of the ability, if they didn't it would nullify the benefit of taking multiple DoT damage dealers.

[MaestroX]

/agree completely with Kythik.  Two brigands is very nice.  In addition to what has been mentioned, if one brig goes down from losing AR, the other is there to continue the longer debuffs, debilitate and -insert adverb- rake.  Doubling the stuns and interupts is also very helpful. 

[Omido]

Well, for raiding, we usually have both our brigands in the raid. I cant verify if our debuffs stack or not.. yes, i often see double icons, but there's no guarantee that they stack.. however.. it is handy to have 2 brigands in case one of our debuffs miss(i.e. deflect, parry, miss, etc.) and also having 2 people immune to AE is never a bad thing. Myself and the other Brigand parse quite well in named encounters, so we also do our part in the DPS department.<div></div>

[kyth]

    Debuff #'s on the same line do not stack.  The icons might both be there but the debuff values do not stack.  so you cant have 2 devitilize on 1 mob and have -4k to melee mitigations. <div></div>

[Riversideblues]

well, double disptach is okay, but the skill is a tini bit over-rated, devite/rake are where most of the extra dps comes from, sure 13 seconds of extra pain is nice, but i'd rather have a conj/assasin/necro over a second brig since (if they know what they're doing) they (can)do a lot more dps.  But then things might change if summoners get  nerf, or if we do (word on the street is wis line is getting nerfed, which btw is stupid, of course it increases dps, there is a penalty..., no one's whining about crit chance and avaste ye increasing dps.... blah)i guess it all depends tho, as long as your brig shows up like 90% i don't personally thing 2 is worth it<img src="http://images6.theimagehosting.com/kiwis.gif"><div></div>

[M0rticia]

Where will there actually be 2 brigands on one raid? I am the ONLY brigand in my guild and have never even grouped with another one. I hit 70 yesterday and was only 11th on my server to do so. I am not trying to be a smart [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....just wondering if this is really an issue. I mean, has anyone ever had this experience? If it does happen to me (in a group or raid situation), I was wondering the same things as the OP. It's certainly a great question to ask....I should have thought of it! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Aral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR>well, double disptach is okay, but the skill is a tini bit over-rated, devite/rake are where most of the extra dps comes from, sure 13 seconds of extra pain is nice, but i'd rather have a conj/assasin/necro over a second brig since (if they know what they're doing) they (can)do a lot more dps.  But then things might change if summoners get  nerf, or if we do (word on the street is wis line is getting nerfed, which btw is stupid, of course it increases dps, there is a penalty..., no one's whining about crit chance and avaste ye increasing dps.... blah)<BR><BR><BR>i guess it all depends tho, as long as your brig shows up like 90% i don't personally thing 2 is worth it<BR><BR><BR><IMG src="http://images6.theimagehosting.com/kiwis.gif"><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While I understand your view of the tradeoff in ideal situation DPS terms, most summoner damage originates from the pets.  In heavy or multiple AE fights, having 2 rogues who are immune, doing strong dps, and have our 30% interrupt proc going on the mob at all times is pretty hard to beat.  I'd say there are at least as many raid fights where a second brig would be a better addition than a second summoner, as the reverse scenario.  <BR>

[Riversideblues]

that's why i said "good" summoners <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ours will still kick my butt in dps on aoe mobs<div></div>

[NemaLVey]

<DIV><FONT color=#cc99cc>Hrm first post didnt take... strange....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc99cc>Anyhow, been in 2 Brig raids, and even 3 Brig raids.  Just some communication and the it will go smoothly.  3 Brig raids cause some issues at times, depending on what we are raiding.  I have to say, 3 Brig raid has been one of the more fun raids, just have to clean-up all the dead casters and predators afterwards. :smileywink:</FONT> </DIV><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>04-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 AM</span>

[noetici]

<DIV>I love raiding with another brigand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes it's relatively unusual to occur, but it does happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a nutshell, having more brigands allows you to keep the mob debuffed in more ways, LONGER. Considering how much HP epic mobs have, it helps! Not to mention the dps which doesn't have to joust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to whether a swashie or brig is better in a raid depends on the raid mob and the makeup of the rest of the raid. Not to mention the skill of the players in question. Really it all depends on what exactly you need debuffed on the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance, 70 Brigand</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV>

[kyth]

    personally the top 5 dps is normally me,swash,2 conj's, and a necro.  Most of the time i am #1 or #2.  Our pred's are normally the 6-10 spot.  So i would take another brig that does as much dps as i do over anyone else. <div></div>

[pAtRaT]

<div></div>hey all, thanks <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  for the good reply and the discussions whether it is nice to have at least 2 brigas instead of 1 brig and 1 swash or not. As a summary on the one hand there was/is no reasonable test whether debuffs are stacking or not, although I believe they do not stack. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But on the other hand it realy nice to have dps, stifle things and area resits (which swash doesn´t have) in a raid. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Have all a good loot and nice raids with us (*wink*) <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> bye <div></div><p>Message Edited by pAtRaT on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 AM</span>

[MrCanoehead]

<P>I for one would be quite interested in testing some raids with either one or two brigands.  Every high level Brig on crushbone is already guilded.:smileysad:</P> <P> </P>