NDA lifted huge problem with new AR

[Own]

Well in xpac as it stands now AR is getting a huge hit to it.Every time we are hit it gets disabled, and with a 30 sec recast timer. So we are going to be absolutely defenseless when we get hit and when mob has dmg shielddiscuss

[NoxTyr]

<div></div>The nurf was bound to happen eventually. AR is just to good of a skill.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div>Welcome to being an assasin:smileysurprised:

[NoxTyr]

<div></div>Ok so NDA has been lifted and it sounds like you were in Beta. Shed some more light on what abilities we get. AR getting nurfed really is just the way it is. No need to dwel on it.

[Own]

most of our spell lines are the same, our marquee spell isBand of thugs, summons 3 down arrow mobs to help us for 1 min with long recast

[Omido]

AR getting nerfed like that is just stupid IMO. Many raid mobs now have Damage Shields... so if that cant get removed then our AR is totally useless.. and we're right along side everyone else having to joust the mobs. Also, with our pretty much non-existant ranged dmg, this just hurts us even more. I"m personally not happy with this change.<div></div>

[Rezikai]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Walebro wrote:AR getting nerfed like that is just stupid IMO. Many raid mobs now have Damage Shields... so if that cant get removed then our AR is totally useless.. and we're right along side everyone else having to joust the mobs. Also, with our pretty much non-existant ranged dmg, this just hurts us even more. I"m personally not happy with this change.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yea,.. not having hardly any meant they would need to help balance a Brigand, thus .. AR, but those not very good at jousting their own class complained, (sadly this the eq-project team listened) and it took an aggro <em><font color="#ffff00">nerf</font></em>,...</p><p>now a hit w/ a 30 sec timer knocked off timer <em><font color="#ffff00">nerf</font></em>.. ouch this one was a stinger...lol</p><p>hmmm.. as for this reasoning for the change I can hardly imagine...I'm pretty sure the raid mobs are going to be using their own AoE spells more once for thirty seconds,.. possible more then twice which pretty much really hurts a brigands as a desired raid position except for maybe our debuffs,.. which hey.. if they nerf Dispatch why even bring a brigand...</p><p>either we joust or die and get rezzed alot,.. this w/virtually no ranged spells meaning were going to be dropping heavinly on the Dps scale at a raid...</p><p>or we are constantly using up a focus block for it to be recasted over and over every 30 secs.. (and thats ONLY IF we live that long)...  which for those of us with low end machines that alreday hate raid lag, it's going to hurt us even more...</p><p>I guess what they were thinking for us to use it get it knocked off and joust in and out after the initial hit so we are <em><font color="#ccccff"><strong>semi-jousting</strong></font></em> every other AoE,.. since for one of the AoE's we can take a hit... to be honest its a pretty bad cop-out IMO seeing as we are lower then most all other scouts in damage except Bards, (and horribly bad played assassins and swashies)  there I could see a bard getting a one hit AR for them and keeping us the same but a Bards utility is better then ours and the mana songs are obviously a more desired utility then most things (save debuffs) that we can bring to the table.</p><p>not being in KoS beta (imo an all too hastily released x-pac its seeming to be) I can't say if we get something that really helps us at the Raiding Platform, sure.. as a previous post says we get a few down arrow friends to come out and help us (reminding me a of on of the enchanter's spells .. i forget which atm) this may help soloing but unless they get buffed extremely fast and/or have enough Hps to last that one minute they come out while they get hit w/ a Raid mobs AoE, I feel they are really goign to be more solo/small grp oriented, .. and again this is going to stress the hell out of my low-average machine since everytime an enchanter casted it it either slowed me to near lag out or froze me altogether,.. so considering that at a raid.. ugh...</p><p>an evil rogue is what I chose, we aren't the damage masters other scouts are and we dont bring a whole lot of utility to a situation, .. AR was a nice niche we could use to show .. hey we can hit stuff to... but im afraid its back to pre-DoF raiding situations for us.. kinda makes me wonder why a class that was decently balanced as we were needed to have such a change done for the raiding platform.. do they want us more for soloing/grouping only more often?.. makes me wonder..</p><p>this is my 3rd EQ game.. and it's,... disapointing to see that these Devs are still scratching their heads at melee classes at the high-end and how not to make the same mistakes.. that's right i said mistakes.. of the previuos Dev teams decisioning for a moderate/Dps moderate/utility class..</p><p>For the Dev's <em><font color="#cccc66">defense</font></em>... (what little defense of it I like to think of  for them, considering the rate at which this game is proceding)...I know lacking to do anything can be just as disasterous as nerfing stuff, especially for melees, (go to any EQoA raid in the last 2 years and you'll see what i mean)...</p><p>they were nearly extinct due to the "lack of need" for them. Only recently has EQoA (which BTW.. has THE <font color="#ffcc99">BEST DEVs</font> of <font color="#ff6600">ANY SOE PROJECT lol i love those guys/gals</font>)  with their own way of customer/merchant interaction have shown their community (what small amount is left) what good can come of changes made and nerfs/fixs placed... maybe the Devs here can take a look at <font color="#ff3300">Sapphyra, Ghoelidon, and Daemaas, </font><font color="#ffffff">are doing to revise the .. tough situation they had over there, and make changes,.. and -communication- better between their customers and help bring the customer/merchant relations to a higher status of satisfaction.</font></p><p>Eh.. I do digress I meant to stay talking about the brigand change and here I've went on a rant about EQ2's development team,.. I will have to test out the new skills for myself to see... but this brigand.. who as a brigand trusts higher ups IRL or in an online game (devs) as much as I can litteraly throw them.. we'll see..</p><p>Rezikai_the_Rogue.</p>

[PritchMR]

<div></div><div></div>im not in beta...  but i think u have the wrong idiea about what the change to AR is... it looks to me like if take daggage AR goes down and u can not recast it for 30sec... so that means only if u are dumb and pull agro (where u die alot of the time anywasy) or if the mob has a dammage sheild?? will AR go down.... but other than that it should be ok<p>Message Edited by PritchMR on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:10 PM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>I played a Ranger from EQ1 launch until Kunark and then a Monk up until PoP, and experience SoE changing a class from underneath my feet... personally I've not intention of getting into the sort of teeth gnashing I did in EQ1, it's simply silly to allow myself to get bent out of shape over a game.... my quandry is, I'm only level 42 but I lie not when I say the two reasons pure and simple why I chose a Brigand was stuns and AoE avoidance.</p><p>As it stands I'm thinking of waiting to see in release what does go into play and then perhaps cut my losses and go with a Ranger or Assassin... Rangers are really compelling but everybody has a Ranger, Assassin at least have moderately low numbers and if I am going to have to joust I at least want to deliver the damage.... not sure.... I know my use of AR is a ways of, but it really was such a crucial deciding factor when I chose a Brigand, on the other hand I'm in one of the largest guilds on my server and yet the only Brigand.</p><p>I'm kinda torn. It's an odd choice..... it's something I'll move away from rather than get upset over though</p><p>To the Ranger.... if I'm having to fight like an Assassin in a raid I might aswell be playing an Assassin or a Ranger... there's reasons why there are 3 to 4 times as many Rangers as Brigands on many servers. Many people playing a Scout that's not a Ranger are doing so out of pure bloody mindedness. Brigands are the least played Scout, I'm not seeing what the issue was.</p>

[PritchMR]

<div>also what is going on with double up does it still ues all the lower abilites or does it move up too the new stuff we get??</div>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><p>I played a Ranger from EQ1 launch until Kunark and then a Monk up until PoP, and experience SoE changing a class from underneath my feet... personally I've not intention of getting into the sort of teeth gnashing I did in EQ1, it's simply silly to allow myself to get bent out of shape over a game.... my quandry is, I'm only level 42 but I lie not when I say the two reasons pure and simple why I chose a Brigand was stuns and AoE avoidance.</p><p>As it stands I'm thinking of waiting to see in release what does go into play and then perhaps cut my losses and go with a Ranger or Assassin... Rangers are really compelling but everybody has a Ranger, Assassin at least have moderately low numbers and if I am going to have to joust I at least want to deliver the damage.... not sure.... I know my use of AR is a ways of, but it really was such a crucial deciding factor when I chose a Brigand, on the other hand I'm in one of the largest guilds on my server and yet the only Brigand.</p><p>I'm kinda torn. It's an odd choice..... it's something I'll move away from rather than get upset over though</p><p>To the Ranger.... if I'm having to fight like an Assassin in a raid I might aswell be playing an Assassin or a Ranger... there's reasons why there are 3 to 4 times as many Rangers as Brigands on many servers. Many people playing a Scout that's not a Ranger are doing so out of pure bloody mindedness. Brigands are the least played Scout, I'm not seeing what the issue was.</p><hr></blockquote>THIS guy knows EXACTLY what hes doing. If brigands suck - he goes and plays a PROPER class. Well done to you!Brigands getting nerfed cos of assassins and rangers whining is sooo annoing and means players experiances and FUN like THIS get ruined. GG SOE.Oh ofcourse I knew it was going to happen, we TRIED to stop it. But we failed, the nerfs came and now brigands are USELESS. If you wanna be a raiding scout, you got 4 options. Ill give you a hint, they dont start with A or B.</span><div></div>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>PritchMR wrote:<div></div><div></div>im not in beta... but i think u have the wrong idiea about what the change to AR is... it looks to me like if take daggage AR goes down and u can not recast it for 30sec... so that means only if u are dumb and pull agro (where u die alot of the time anywasy) or if the mob has a dammage sheild?? will AR go down.... but other than that it should be ok<p>Message Edited by PritchMR on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You'd think..Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in practice. I haven't been able to get AR to stay up for more than a few seconds in any kind of group since the change. Ok, so you say, that's fine, it's just for raids. Except... things don't always go precisely identical on every single pull in every single raid. Damage gets sprayed around on occasion by a wide variety of mobs. Adds, pets, lackeys, minions, waves, rings, whatever. Damage is not perfect, nor are pulls.I think you'll find the skill is pretty much useless in it's current form, if it goes to live unchanged. I personally will be removing it from my hotbar, as it does provides absolutely 100% no advantage for me.And to the other poster, you're correct. Rangers > all now for Scout raiders. At least that choice is clear now, for everyone. It's not class envy, it's not sour grapes. It's as clear as the examine window on your screen. If you want to raid as a Scout, you should be a Ranger. You have the highest DPS in the game, you take zero AE damage, and generate zero aggro. Where's the downside? Cost of arrows? hehehe. good one. At least you made me smile. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Damari]

<div></div><p>Hmm, so let me get this right.  We're losing AR and were gaining a dot thats recastable every 10 minutes. Absolute genius!  If this change does go through, at least we will become the least played class again.</p><p>I've said this before and I'll say it again AR is not currently overpowered.  It's a neccessary skill needed by the class to be viable in raiding situations.  At least let us use our only ranged CA with a bow then.</p>

[PritchMR]

<div>wow that really sucks then if that is the case thanks for the info on it..... its going to so much fun to run in debuff the mob then run back out so the rangers can do all there leet dps</div>

[M0rticia]

My AR skill is the one thing that I truly cherish. People are always scrambling to get me into raids because of this one spell. I am severely disappointed that they are changing it.With brigands having ONE ranged spell and now they are taking our ONE cherished end-game/raid spell, I am wondering what else they are going to do to us. AR does not need to be changed. Brigands were the one class that seemed truly balanced. Why mess with us?I am not going to create another character. I have never had an alt and I am not going to start now. I am just wondering what the devs were thinking and their reasoning behind this terrible decision.I was excited about the KOS release but, after reading about this severe blow to brigands, I don't think  this expansion is going to be all it was cracked up to be. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[kyth]

   I suggest everyone<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=72348" target="_blank"> PM LOCKEYE</a> and tell him what you think about the changed to AR.  If we get enough of us expressing our concerns perhaps it will not go live.<div></div>

[Eplekje]

<div></div>i pmed him if u folks love our class we need to raise our voices...

[Atrocity]

Boooooo on the changes to amazing reflexes.  This is a truly defining ability for brigands and makes us a great class to add to a raid.  Are you telling me that raids are supposed to beat all of the current T6 content without a brigand every time?  I just find that hard to believe.  Sure I know there are guilds who will say they do everything without a brigand but it's pretty clear that every serious raiding guild wants to have a brigand along.  What's so wrong with that?  Why the need to change this?  It just doesn't make sense to me.  For a raiding brigand this skill is now worthless and for a non-raiding brigand it was always worthless.  So why even have the ability?  Why have a brigand?  What is it we bring to the raids again?  Debuffs and then run out?  What a joke, a sad, un-funny joke that gets your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked when you tell it in the wrong company...This change doesn't just hurt brigands it hurts ALL classes that raid.  Every raid that I've ever been to I've been welcomed and have received tells afterwards that things were much better for everyone when I'm along.  Amazing reflexes in its current live state is a good thing for brigands and for everyone else. Please SoE do not send the changes to AR that are currently in beta live. Vlademir DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[Damari]

<div></div>PM'd.

[Xri]

<div></div>BS....just total BS

[Rezikai]

<div></div>PMd Lockeye as well...

[Peersu]

<div></div>i havent raided in KoS, but from what i've seen, all of the heroics damage shields are divine and can be taken off with our taunt.

[kyth]

   Some of the DS's are from SK selfbuff that can not be stripped<div></div>

[Peersu]

<div>oh, i can't wait!  not</div>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Peersu wrote:<div></div>i havent raided in KoS, but from what i've seen, all of the heroics damage shields are divine and can be taken off with our taunt.<hr></blockquote>Yeah Im going to <b>TAUNT</b> a large raid mob while I have a 14% hate buff on me as well as my debuffs...You may as well run into the nearest aggro raid mob solo!!</span><div></div>

[Sierrus]

<div></div>PM'ed~

[Rezikai]

<div></div><p>the Test info says the Amazing Reflexes in LU#20 now breaks when the brigand takes damage its reuse timer is 30 seconds..</p><p>1. i was mad they changed one of the few usefull spells we get..</p><p>2. 30 seconds?... couldnt this be smoothed by making it 10 or 12... sheesh.. i'm pretty sure a raid mob is going to AOE more then once every 30 seconds...</p><p>3. it now breaks when a brigand takes damage..  this part is the most disapointing.. it doesnt specify that it will be AOE damage.. does this mean it will be ANY damage? Dmg shield / self dmg like Disp-thrust line.. ?</p><p>sickens me it does...</p>

[AratornCalahn]

Dont use Manastone on raids brigands <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that things deadly now LOLnerf is just BS as someone else said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[verydanger]

I havent seen much of the T6 raid content, so please educate me. What kind of AE attacks do you encounter? All this talk about getting one-shotted by AE's, we must be talking melee AE's that do 4k+ dmg to 3k+ mitigation brigands? Thats were you can assume the regular raiding brigand is sitting, around 4000 hp and 3000 mitigation. For magic based AE, resist gear and potion can push the desired mitigation way above 3k.Are the AE's really that bad?<div></div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>AratornCalahn wrote:Dont use Manastone on raids brigands <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that things deadly now LOLnerf is just BS as someone else said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>i want to cry in RL because of this change. We will be completely usesless. With the way our debuffs on are the timers they are on now.We misely get replaced by a ranger.

[AratornCalahn]

7k+ resits is needed for some mobs if you want to survive the AOE at all<div></div>

[Rezikai]

<div></div><font color="#ff6633"></font><blockquote><blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:I havent seen much of the T6 raid content, so please educate me. What kind of AE attacks do you encounter? All this talk about getting one-shotted by AE's, we must be talking melee AE's that do 4k+ dmg to 3k+ mitigation brigands? Thats were you can assume the regular raiding brigand is sitting, around 4000 hp and <u><strong><font color="#ffff00">3000 mitigation</font></strong></u>.<font color="#ff6600">.. idk i never came close to 3k most was around 24-2600ish w/our defensive stance,.. then again I wasnt privledged to get alot of the higher end gear so im rocking basically a few fabled and mostly crafted and a few pieces of Leg.</font> For magic based AE, resist gear and potion can push the desired mitigation way above 3k.Are the AE's really that bad? <font color="#ff3300">yes.. it can be.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>/punts the ratonga....</p><p> </p><p>meh.. they creep me out anywyas .. their beedy lil eyes...</p></blockquote>

[Peersu]

<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">Yeah Im going to <b>TAUNT</b> a large raid mob while I have a 14% hate buff on me as well as my debuffs...You may as well run into the nearest aggro raid mob solo!!</font></p><p> </p><p><font color="#ffffff">Master1 AR is 10%, and the taunt does lower hate than a fighter class.  Just use your evades, and it's fine.  However, like kythik said, this doesnt work on all mobs =/</font></p>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Peersu wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">Yeah Im going to <b>TAUNT</b> a large raid mob while I have a 14% hate buff on me as well as my debuffs...You may as well run into the nearest aggro raid mob solo!!</font></p><p> </p><p><font color="#ffffff">Master1 AR is 10%, and the taunt does lower hate than a fighter class.  Just use your evades, and it's fine.  However, like kythik said, this doesnt work on all mobs =/</font></p><hr></blockquote>ok so the 14% may have been an old value <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do have m1 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Its still a taunt, I DONT want to use taunts on a raid <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Golbezz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonmerc wrote:Well in xpac as it stands now AR is getting a huge hit to it.Every time we are hit it gets disabled, and with a 30 sec recast timer. So we are going to be absolutely defenseless when we get hit and when mob has dmg shielddiscuss<hr></blockquote><p><font color="#0066ff">I have a feeling all the other classes that complained about AR failed to consider that it also adds 10% hate at the master 1 level.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Brigands already lose their AE immunity if they pull aggro when AE goes off. Best place to prove that is the deserted mine raid zone. Brigand takes 0 gear damage from AE if they never pull aggro. If they pull aggro and AE goes off they get gear damage.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">The 30 second recast is pretty stupid I think... well, so is the getting hit part and having it drop. I'm glad I have been saving extra resist gear, it sounds like I'll probably end up needing it along with resist and even healing potions.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Now, if it turns out that we have to pull aggro and be hit by the AE to disable the AR I could live with that, but if it's any damage from things like manastone, health to power summoned items, damage shields or adds hitting the brigand then it's not acceptable and really should not be changed.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffff00">I hate to suggest alternative nerfs to the planned change of AR dropping when you take any hits but what would be acceptable if some sort of nerf had to be done? Keep in mind I don't want any nerfs when I suggest alternative changes to the AR combat art.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Possible alternative changes:</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Higher concentration use which would force choosing between maintained combat arts.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">OR</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Higher hate gain but otherwise similar to the way it works now.</font></p>

[kyth]

   Manastone,  Vessel,  and Shards ALL make AR go poof also...<div></div>

[ag]

Yep, as kythik said.And as far as suggestions go, my suggestion would be to remove the ability altogether and give us something useful if it's going to be changed this badly.Unfortunately, the fit is really going to hit the shan when everyone else finds out that Bards and Shamans get group-AE-immunity Achievements, and they do not suffer from this particular "fix".Of course, that was a few days ago, things could have changed...But <b>if</b> it's still true, I'm forced to wonder... now four sub-classes can shield an entire group from AE damage, and SOE picked Brigands out of the haystack to change 6 months later? I don't understand.

[kyth]

   bard/shaman group ae avoids are short duration with 5min recast i believe...but i could be wrong<div></div>

[Damari]

<div></div>In my PM to lockeye, I suggested that if a change had to be made, they could consider using ad1 50% to avoid, ad3 75% avoid, and m1 85% avoid AoE.  This way were not immune to risk but the skill is still useful.  This losing the buff on any hit is a crock of [Removed for Content].

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>Damari wrote:<div></div>In my PM to lockeye, I suggested that if a change had to be made, they could consider using ad1 50% to avoid, ad3 75% avoid, and m1 85% avoid AoE. This way we're not immune to risk but the skill is still useful. This losing the buff on any hit is a crock of [Removed for Content].<hr></blockquote>Yeah, I suggested it should be changed to 1/2/3 minute duration with instant recast so we could pay attention in order to keep it active. No shortage of good / better ideas, I'm pretty sure.However I'd say Master should be 90%, and 10% less for each rank below that, if we're heading down that road.<p>Message Edited by agra on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:37 PM</span></p>

[Own]

Bah i hate relying on luck for it not to not be in that certain %, ya make it on a 3 min timer, and make instant recast would be coolest option ever

[kyth]

   i really would love to have Lockeye or someone post the reasoning behind these changes.  Also i would love for CA's not to be changed every expansion....<div></div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:   i really would love to have Lockeye or someone post the reasoning behind these changes.  Also i would love for CA's not to be changed every expansion....<div></div><hr></blockquote>Honestly. Tell me why there was even a need to change this spell

[MaestroX]

<div></div>I have raided in KoS and it was much like Agra mentioned.  AR dropped constantly.  Not just when I was too aggressive and pulled aggro.  PM'ed dev with a personal touch from one of the few Brigands lucky enough to have tested the change.

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dragonmerc wrote:<blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:   i really would love to have Lockeye or someone post the reasoning behind these changes.  Also i would love for CA's not to be changed every expansion....<div></div><hr></blockquote>Honestly. Tell me why there was even a need to change this spell<hr></blockquote>Assassins.</span><div></div>

[kyth]

   true that...<div></div>

[Darchon6]

<div></div><div>It's about time this ability got nerfed.  Imo, they should take it further and make it a 30 second duration buff with a 3 minute recast then give the brigands 1 or 2 more ranged CAs to "make up" for it =p</div><div> </div><div>Feel the pain of swashbucklers for epics such as sunchild. muahahha</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Darchon6 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:15 AM</span></p>

[kyth]

   and while they are at it they should nef swashbuckler AE's and poison procs....oh ya lets get the hate between classes going! lets get each other nerfed to the point where we have the exact same ca's have the exact same autoattack and the only diff if our class hats.....<div></div>

[PritchMR]

<div></div>i was level 25 when the expansion came out so i never raided before i got AR i cant imangie running in and out and having my dps any where desent when the assian in our guild has to dodge he still does more dps than i do and the ranger.... well yeah u know.....  its too bad to see such a well made ability that gave us a nitch a way to be diffrent from every other class go away... i know other classes where envious of it but heck i allwasy long for self haste and things like that.... but i play my class the best i can and do what i have to do.... i just hope they see how very bad this move is for the smallest class in the game and change there mind

[InquisitorR]

I personally would not mind AR being 3 minute duration and instant/30sec recast, something much akin to what Daring Advance used to be back in the day. Sure, it would be a mana drain, but at least it could always be on. Even with the hate gain increase, and having to re-cast every 3min, it would be better than being based on a %.<div></div>

[Niende]

<div></div><p>This change is totally unnecessary and will ruin my only unique ability on raids. We already do less damage than so many other DPS classes due to the arbitrary damage tier system. Many other classes get mit debuffs. There werent many brigands anyways and we don't stack well so I find this nerf to amazing reflexes very distressing. Why is my guild supposed to want brigand(s) on raids now?</p><p> </p><p>Crappy jousting damage compared to Many classes and throwing daggers for the win.</p><p>But I get a new taunt, and can take off one of my weapons and most of my damage dealing ability for 1/3rd of the new achievements. So I have that going for me.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Doran]

<div></div><p>Instead of suggesting other ways to change AR, we should be presenting a united front that this skill needs no change.  We need to argue why we need it as it exsists today on live, not give them other ideas on how to nerf it.</p><p>An explanation on why this is changing might do much for customer relations!</p><p>Hint Hint!</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Andai]

<div>The changes to Amazing reflexes is very distressing and i for one believe this one didn't need a change at all. If AR in the KoS beta now works the way agra & co describes it it'll be like not having the skill at all. If you more or less know that it will fail you, leaving you to be one-shotted by the mob if the darn skill drops when the mob is about to AoE, we just can't rely on it. More or less this will force us to not even use the skill and force us to be out of AoE range for each AoE tick. Considering that we, among the DPS oriented scout classes, have the least ranged attacks, we're pretty much hosed when raiding.</div><div> </div><div>A very depressing change indeed <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>/Ishmel</div>

[DaLurk]

Can someone link me the thread where the Devs explained the reason (not the fact, the reason) of the AR skill revamp please ?I'm waiting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>You know when I joined my guild, I was and still am the only brigand.  They actually appricate the fact that I can dodge aes and debuff mobs on incoming when everyone else has to stand back and way for the engage call.  To see this change is going to hurt our class dramatically.</p><p> </p><p>I PMed Lockeye also.</p><p> </p><p>I think other classes whinning about this ability, only hurts their raid force in general and it does absolutly nothing to help us above and beyond that.  So I am kinda baffled with the hate some ppl have (included in this thread) against this ability.  Obviously this person has 0 clue about raiding content, otherwise hes be with us to have this new change amended in its LU20 form as it is now.</p><p> </p><p>I think theres other ways to do what the devs are trying to do here, but what they arent taking into concideration is the dmg shields that cannot be stripped.  Maybe have it so that if you get hit due to being 1 on the hate list then it would drop.  Most of the time on a raid I can get a degro or 2 off before a mob completly beats the crap out of me on the initial charge.</p><p> </p><p>The brigand community is right here.  This is a class defining skill, and since we dont get the uber hits that a assassin/ranja gets...they have 0 to cry about.  This thread is about feedback and constructive criticism on the new change.  the class envy really isnt appriciated.  You board trolls are just dying to get our last class defining skill nerfed to hell...just do it in PM and leave our community alone.</p><p> </p><p>I have posted much, because I havent had a lot to add,  bit with this change I think the devs need to take a real careful look at this.</p><p> </p><p>FYI ranjas/assassins this only = less mit debuffs for you in any particular fight, so your only nerfing yourself by flaming here.</p>

[kyth]

<span><blockquote><hr>DaLurker wrote:Can someone link me the thread where the Devs explained the reason (not the fact, the reason) of the AR skill revamp please ?I'm waiting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>and wait you shall.  We have yet to see an explanation from any dev why they feel this change is required.  I doubt we will get one period.  Remember the agro issues we had post DoF?   It wasnt until some time after DoF that lockeye posted about the agro issues if i remember correctly.  I sure hope that we dont see this go live and if it does lockeye doesnt wait til then to post something about it.  Funny thing is Lockeye's main toon IS a brigand (as far as i know).  Not sure, but I doubt he is a hardcore raiding brigand...but i could be wrong.</span><div></div>

[kyth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div><p> </p><p>FYI ranjas/assassins this only = less mit debuffs for you in any particular fight, so your only nerfing yourself by flaming here.</p><hr></blockquote>   Funny thing is i doubt these people roaring that Amazing Reflexes needs to be nerfed realize that their DPS will drop also.  Guess what all you other dps classes, AR changes = more likely to have a dead brigand or a brigand that has to dodge ae's.  WHICH MEANS IT IS LESS LIKELY THAT ALL THOSE AWSOME DEBUFFS OF OURS YOU WANT WILL BE ON THE MOB WHEN YOU WANT TO HIT YOUR UBER DAMAMGE SKILL!!  I for one will laugh when people say "what happened to my DPS it was higher in DoF then it is in KoS".</span><div></div>

[stelle]

<div>most raid AE's are in the 45 second range, i dont see this as being a problem for us since it will have 30 sec recast</div><div> </div><div>and our debuffs are still top knotch for raids</div>

[Eris]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>stellerx wrote:<div>most raid AE's are in the 45 second range, i dont see this as being a problem for us since it will have 30 sec recast</div><div> </div><div>and our debuffs are still top knotch for raids</div><hr></blockquote>Then you lack imagination: Multiple AEs, damage shield, overaggro (be it slight or big).... All of those make AR next to useless (especially the damage shield. Just try Syamak in PoS when change goes live)<p>Message Edited by Eris on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:33 PM</span></p>

[kyth]

   there is more then 1 raid mob that is an SK.  SK's get dark caress i believe it is called.  Dark Caress is a perm Damage shield buff.  So you pop AR and attack and it goes bye bye.  Unless you are going to sit their in melee range not doing anything waiting for the AE to hit.  Then i ask what is the diff between that and dodging the AE?  and yes i am sure we will see more mobs with 2 ae's and i would love for them to be SK's so i can be 90% worthless on raids.  Unless that is if i want 50g+ repairs a night from kamakazi debuffing!  Even that is useless since debuffs drop when you die... <div></div>

[kyth]

<div></div>   I was thinking why just pm <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=72348" target="_blank">LOCKEYE</a> , why not <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=51450" target="_blank">DYMUS</a> , or even <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=128" target="_blank">GALLENITE</a> .  Shoot we should PM  them all!!  If you do PM a Dev please keep your message civil and to the point.  Do not come off as an arrogant player that knows more then the devs.  <a href="../view_profile?user.id=128" target="_blank"><span></span></a><div></div>

[haev]

<div></div><p>They need to change the nerf so AR only goes off IF WE GET TARGETED. In that case we normally die anyway. I could even live with the 30sec recast then. That is the only way I could deem this nerf fair in any way.</p><p> </p><p>IT SHOULD NOT APPLY TO DAMAGE SHIELDS PROCS ETC</p><p> </p><p>SOE -  the only company that provides their board of directors less money with every patch <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[kyth]

<span><blockquote><hr>haeven wrote:<div></div><p>They need to change the nerf so AR only goes off IF WE GET TARGETED. In that case we normally die anyway. I could even live with the 30sec recast then. That is the only way I could deem this nerf fair in any way.</p><p> </p><p>IT SHOULD NOT APPLY TO DAMAGE SHIELDS PROCS ETC</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>      now that would just make too much sense!!</span><div></div>

[Shidonya]

<div></div><div><p>For once could they do something constructive instead of destructive? This is a travisty, my guild knows the value of my debuffs and are disappointed as a whole. I think there should be no changes and no compromises to this ability.</p><p>So basically we become a brawler I suppose, high tank dps without the ability to tank. I never post and always read but this time something had to be said. BTW swashie boy if you want to stand in there and debuff all day then by all means make a brigand otherwise shut yer trap!!! When I raid I view my role as a master debuffer not a master dps'r if I wanted to be the best dps'r I'd made a ranger but I didn't and you don't hear me complaining about them. I don't care what other classes have or can do I want to be able to be the best at what I like to be (brigand) and now I can't. Thanks alot SOE.</p><p>The damage shields alone are enough to combat our AR since it doesn't protect us against it and thus since I don't spam all my CA's to conserve power for debuffs as I view as my class responsibility, I as a responsible brig shouldn't have to be overley concerned from that damage. Do ranged attacks suffer damage from damage shields? I wouldn't know since I have almost no range to test it but I'd say not. So why do I have to be hit by both DS and AoE and ranged classes neither? Explaination SOE?</p><p>After months of being the bottom of scum we finally became useful and now we are being put back on the bottom, I'm tired SOE I've stuck it out over a year now and after this slap in the face it will be my last slap from you! With this change I will cancel been wanting to try DDO anyway.</p></div><p>Message Edited by Shidonya on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p>

[Own]

Ya no reason for this change at all. You can tell it wasnt truely thought out because of the mana stone /vessel casting breaking it

[Anoixia]

<div>Although I do not like this change... worse case scenario is the dmg shields will have to be dispelled before we go in, heck we can dispel the thornskin line ourselves and other healer dmg shields.  I have never seen a dmg shield come back after being dispelled.</div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>Arnou wrote:<div>Although I do not like this change... worse case scenario is the dmg shields will have to be dispelled before we go in, heck we can dispel the thornskin line ourselves and other healer dmg shields.  I have never seen a dmg shield come back after being dispelled.</div><hr></blockquote>I dont know about you guys, But if i go 100% on raids, i tend to get aggro as it is. Taunting wont help the aggro problem as it is.

[Doran]

<div>Quote : ( They need to change the nerf so AR only goes off IF WE GET TARGETED )</div><div> </div><div>In fact my AR drops almost 100% of the time when I get aggro on said mob.  But so do all my other buffs as I am a dead man.  This type of change would make sense as it drops AR on anything you happen to survive.  In raids if you play smart and never get aggro, the change would be a non issue.</div><div> </div><div>Please take into account the above quote and modify the changes accordingly.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[rek6779]

<div>I agree with the other posters as to the unnecessary nature of this change. AR already has it's own drawback, and that's the hate increase. Other classes are getting smiliar, if less powerful versions of AR in AAs, so why exactly is this change a necessity? I won't call for nerfbats, but there are other classes that are highly overpowered in not just 1, but 5-7 skills but they nerf one of the most useful brig benefits for what appears to be, little reason.</div><div> </div><div>The sightings of damage shields are much higher now with the change in LU19, and not just from the SK mobs.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><p>Brigands were T1 DPS before this change, outparsing assasins and parsing above wizards and Warlocks, now maybe they will be brought back down to tier 2 where they belong. Dodging AE's should require SOME skill, AR just trivialized it.</p><p>Plus your still by far the Best Single Target Debuffers in the game, not sure why you think no one will want a brigand now.</p><p>And 10% hate gain is nothing, just get in with the troub.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:45 AM</span></p>

[kyth]

<div></div>   And rangers have to dodge aes all the time?<div></div><p>Message Edited by kythik on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:51 AM</span></p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><div></div><div>No, but we're supposed to be T1 DPS along with assasins and Sorcerors, your not.</div><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p>

[Atrocity]

I'm not going to support this change.  If the change to amazing reflexes goes live I will not be ordering KoS and will be canceling my account.  This is BS.  I'm not going to sit through another game where every useful thing that any class has to add slowly gets taken away. For people who think the damage shield is not a big deal I have to ask how much T6 content have you raided?  If you've done a lot of T6 raiding and you know your class then you should have an excellent understanding of how much of an aspect of a brigands usefullness AR is.  The above posters who say that this nerf will be a nerf to an entire raid are correct.  It's not that being immune to AE let us do uber dps, it let us get in and debuff a mob so that the rest of the raid could do uber dps.  If the change to AR goes live we're just going to die again and again trying to get these debuffs in which is going to lead to high repair costs, subpar raid dps, and I predict very few raiding brigands.If SoE feels the need to make this change that's fine.  I will also make a change.  I will cancel my subscription and will not order KoS.  Perhaps there are other brigands who will continue to play because they didn't raid much before or enjoy playing alts, or just don't have anything better or more fun to do.  Best of luck to you all, but I'm not going to pay to have my fun taken away.Vlademire  DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><p>Brigands were T1 DPS before this change, outparsing assasins and parsing above wizards and Warlocks, now maybe they will be brought back down to tier 2 where they belong. Dodging AE's should require SOME skill, AR just trivialized it.</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Well Mr. Ranger, please tell me the last time you failed to parse at least 150% of the damage of a Brigand.... If Ranger dps is Tier 1, then I don't think a Ranger has room to comment on a Brigands dps being out of the bounds of Tier 2. It's possible for a Ranger to be delivering twice the dps of Brigands in the same raid, not the norm perhaps, but it's not a freakish occurence... just how big of a gap do you think there should be?</p><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<p>Plus your still by far the Best Single Target Debuffers in the game, not sure why you think no one will want a brigand now.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Because as it stands the Brigand is the 2nd least played in the game... not quite sure given that fact how you think this change will improve matters. Or did you think there should be less Brigands that there is? Why do you think there are so many Rangers and so few of the other Scouts?</p><p>Lastly Mr. Ranger if Brigands avoiding AoE trivialises thing, please let me know how Ranger standing outside AoE does anything other that trivialise things.... you really didn't think much about this before you posted... let me remind you, as it appears you forgot....<strong>YOU'RE A RANGER</strong></p>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>No, but we're supposed to be T1 DPS along with assasins and Sorcerors, your not.</div><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>OK so there is a problem with their class? so they need to nerf us? to make them feel better? and we are not T1 DPS, i know ANY assasin and many sorceres who can outdps a brigand

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><p>Brigands were T1 DPS before this change, outparsing assasins and parsing above wizards and Warlocks, now maybe they will be brought back down to tier 2 where they belong. Dodging AE's should require SOME skill, AR just trivialized it.</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Well Mr. Ranger, please tell me the last time you failed to parse at least 150% of the damage of a Brigand.... If Ranger dps is Tier 1, then I don't think a Ranger has room to comment on a Brigands dps being out of the bounds of Tier 2. It's possible for a Ranger to be delivering twice the dps of Brigands in the same raid, not the norm perhaps, but it's not a freakish occurence... just how big of a gap do you think there should be?</p><p><font color="#ff9900">Yes but ranger DPS will not stand at it's current levels for long, there have already been a ton of nerfs to us and more are in the pipeline, so I wouldn't worry about it, and the wizards have done a mighty job of making sure of that.</font></p><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<p>Plus your still by far the Best Single Target Debuffers in the game, not sure why you think no one will want a brigand now.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Because as it stands the Brigand is the 2nd least played in the game... not quite sure given that fact how you think this change will improve matters. Or did you think there should be less Brigands that there is? Why do you think there are so many Rangers and so few of the other Scouts?</p><p><font color="#ff9900">So just because a class is least or most played it should be immune to nerfs and class adjustments, Please. People play rangers because they are the Flavor of the Month right now, once the next set of nerfs come down the pipeline then a lot of people will jump ship. Same reason you see a ton of brigand alts, they were one of the best Raid Scouts behind Rangers, not just in DPS but also in Debuffs.</font></p><p>Lastly Mr. Ranger if Brigands avoiding AoE trivialises thing, please let me know how Ranger standing outside AoE does anything other that trivialise things.... you really didn't think much about this before you posted... let me remind you, as it appears you forgot....<strong>YOU'RE A RANGER</strong></p><p><font color="#ff9900">It trivialized there DPS by allowing them to do T1 DPS, unlike assasins who have to joust. Your still going to be able to avoid 80% of mob Ae's Provided your carefull. Rangers avoiding AE's is part of our class, and ranger DPS is going to be lowered soon. When a class is given a massively game altering Ability like AR, then there should be some risk in using it.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[ChaosUndivided]

<blockquote><hr>Dragonmerc wrote:<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>No, but we're supposed to be T1 DPS along with assasins and Sorcerors, your not.</div><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>OK so there is a problem with their class? so they need to nerf us? to make them feel better? and we are not T1 DPS, i know ANY assasin and many sorceres who can outdps a brigand<hr></blockquote>They Can't keep escalating DPS of all classes until it is equal, something's gotta give, Ranger DPS is being lowered and will continue to get nerfed, and assasins and Sorceror DPS will hopefully get boosted to find a middle ground. If they just heap on DPS it will Trivialize Heroic and Solo content and Make Raids much easier, then we get LU13 All over again. I would rather them nerf a few classes including mine to balance DPS numbers than to create a cold war of DPS escalation until they have to revamp all the NPCS again.

[Atrocity]

Taking an issue with Brigand dps is not the same as an issue with AR.  AR allows us to get in and debuff a mob so the ENTIRE RAID'S DPS GOES UP.  Even you mr ranger.  So guess what?  AR goes away, dead brigands don't debuff, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranger dps goes down WTFXOR@Q!@.  And not just mr ranger but everyone else too. AR let's us stay in the fight the entire time.  That might look easy cuz a talented brigand can make everything we do *look* easy but in reality it's a tight ballance between keeping up the debuffs, doing as much damage as we possibly can while we're in there, and managing agro to make sure we don't become the direct target which results in us going face down and taking raid dps down with us.  Personally I find this role to be unique to the game and very enjoyable.AR does nothing to help us out when we solo.  AR does nothing to help us out when we group.  The only time it's useful is in a raid and when we use it right it makes the entire raiids dps go up.  Complaining that brigands dps is too high so AR should be nerfed demonstrates serious ignorance of how this ability works.  This is about as civil as I can be for this discussion.Vlademir DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[PritchMR]

<div></div><p>my guild---- not so good in the dps department so i really do not have numbers to compare agsent if u could post some that would be supper i would like to see what u are calling t1 dps and what t2 dps shoudl be</p><p> </p><p>thanks</p>

[Magus_Bl]

<div></div><div>Notice it's a ranger that has to bring dps into the discussion.  This discussion is not about dps.  So rangers go troll somewhere else please.</div><div> </div><div>If you're a ranger and can't out-parse a rogue, you need to learn to play your class.  That's just stupid.</div><div>And sorcs are not T1 dps (although that may be what some say is intended).  Summoners are.</div><div> </div><div>Back to the subject at hand...</div><div> </div><div>DEVS:  WHY????????</div><div> </div><div>Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Dtrick]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p><font color="#ff9900">Rangers avoiding AE's is part of our class.....</font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Wow, its part of our class too.  You know they gave us this ability called Amazing Reflexes that lets us avoid AE's.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dtrick wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p><font color="#ff9900">Rangers avoiding AE's is part of our class.....</font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Wow, its part of our class too.  You know they gave us this ability called Amazing Reflexes that lets us avoid AE's.<hr></blockquote>Interesting, I wonder how you managed before DoF Came out:smileysurprised:. Regardless they're are many ways to nerf a class's DPS, wether directly or indirectly. This one happens to be an indirect nerf. The Ends Justify the Means.</div>

[Kegofbud]

<div></div><div>Agreed, any ranger complaining about our DPS is a lousy Ranger. There, I said it and I meant it. This skill is essential to debuffing consistantly. If the change takes place - as is - our class will be horribly broken. The rest of you classes who don't understand the point of the issue will understand when you don't have a repetitive debuff put in place because of jousting. We are NOT T1 DPS so get over yourselves. I'm sick of hearing the complaints from other classes who only see the little picture. I'm tired of the constant nerfs to our abilities with every expansion. The game is becoming something I don't like.</div><div> </div><div>Our big hit got nerfed because it did damage - OMG, a DPS class did damage, we can't have that! Stupid change.</div><div>We had ONE FREAKING BOW ATTACK - it was taken away with no explanation or replacement gear for the slot that is remotely acceptable.</div><div>Nerfed our Sneak/Feign AND made more mobs see through</div><div>Now AR changes..what else can I say? Stop unbalancing what was fine from the beginning.</div><div> </div><div>Another thing, makign all these damned changes with no explanation is getting really frustrating.  At least have the guts to confront us and explain yourselves because this whole Nerf with no explanation thing is old. Come this Summer, you'll be doing a lot more server combines. I don't mean that as a threat, so much as a warning. I will not reroll another class. Wait, yes I will; it will just be in another game. Am I too angry? Yes, I am. You know whay? Because I care about playign this game and have devoted so much time to it. Now, I'm really coming close to kissing the frustration goodbye and I hate that. That's all the apology I'll ever give for my rants.</div><div> </div><div>Oh yeah, thanks for changing my Alchemy so drastically too. Damnnit.</div><p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:59 AM</span></p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus_Blue wrote:<div></div><div>Notice it's a ranger that has to bring dps into the discussion.  This discussion is not about dps.  So rangers go troll somewhere else please.</div><div> </div><div>If you're a ranger and can't out-parse a rogue, you need to learn to play your class.  That's just stupid.</div><div>And sorcs are not T1 dps (although that may be what some say is intended).  Summoners are.</div><div> </div><div>Back to the subject at hand...</div><div> </div><div>DEVS:  WHY????????</div><div> </div><div>Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Learn to read thanks, I never said I can't Out DPS a rogue, I said Brigands Out DPS Assasins and Sorcerors. AR will still be usefull, this is just an means to an end, that end being to lower brigand DPS.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kegofbud wrote:<div>Agreed, any ranger complaining about our DPS is a lousy Ranger. There, I said it and I meant it. This skill is essential to debuffing consistantly. If the change takes place - as is - our class will be horribly broken. The rest of you classes who don't understand the point of the issue will understand when you don't have a repetitive debuff put in place because of jousting. We are NOT T1 DPS so get over yourselves. I'm sick of hearing the complaints from other classes who only see the little picture. I'm tired of the constant nerfs to our abilities with every expansion. The game is becoming something I don't like.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Again, I never said I can't out DPS Rogues, if you can find where I did say that then I'll give you a silver dollar. Please don't put words in my mouth.</p><p>Oh, and any brigand that can't out dps an assasin or sorceror is a pretty lousy brigand, there I said and I meant it.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 AM</span></p>

[MexStrat]

<div></div><p>I PM'd and offered several plausible solutions,</p><p>It totally baffles me how others believe that knocking one class down, makes the game better. </p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>MexStrat wrote:<div></div><p>I PM'd and offered several plausible solutions,</p><p>It totally baffles me how others believe that knocking one class down, makes the game better. </p><hr></blockquote>I'm not knocking down brigands, I think brigands rule and are an awesome class, I think they are balanced more or less. However at the moment they do more Damage than Both assasins and Sorcerors. One solution is to raise Assasin and Sorceror Damage, another solution is to lower brigand damage either directly or indirectly. This is an indirect nerf to brigand damage because it parses above that of assasins and Sorcerors, and just like you Rangers do too much DPS, we will get and have gotten nerfed also. Take it on the chin, it's for the sake of game balance.</div>

[Own]

Brigands are there to debuff, with out AR how are we going to be constantly debuffing mob? do u realize we have to spam to keep our debuffs up?

[Own]

How about they lower the range on CA for rangers so they have the same problem as assassin? Nerfing classes doesnt help that much does it

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonmerc wrote:Brigands are there to debuff, with out AR how are we going to be constantly debuffing mob? do u realize we have to spam to keep our debuffs up?<hr></blockquote><p>Last I heard, you still had AR, it's just more difficult to use now, so you will have to be more carefull Vs Certain mobs with Damage shields. I do agree that self inflicted Damage (Manastone, vessel etc) Should not break it however.</p><p>Swashbucklers are a debuff class also, why don't you ask them how they cope.</p>

[Kegofbud]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kegofbud wrote:<div>Agreed, any ranger complaining about our DPS is a lousy Ranger. There, I said it and I meant it. This skill is essential to debuffing consistantly. If the change takes place - as is - our class will be horribly broken. The rest of you classes who don't understand the point of the issue will understand when you don't have a repetitive debuff put in place because of jousting. We are NOT T1 DPS so get over yourselves. I'm sick of hearing the complaints from other classes who only see the little picture. I'm tired of the constant nerfs to our abilities with every expansion. The game is becoming something I don't like.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Again, I never said I can't out DPS Rogues, if you can find where I did say that then I'll give you a silver dollar. Please don't put words in my mouth.</p><p>Oh, and any brigand that can't out dps an assasin or sorceror is a pretty lousy brigand, there I said and I meant it.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'll give you a nice shiny anything if you show me where I quoted you or mentioned you specifically, so go back to your own class forum. Also, you misquoted me again, I never said I couldn't outdamage either of them.  I said we are not T1 DPS. The problem with Assassins and Mages is that they are not doing enough damage, not us doing too much. They are supposed to be on par with you, not us. So, show me how your response to me in any way was warranted since I never said anythign you implied? Just one more Ranger spouting off without paying attention to what he's reading.<p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:04 PM</span></p>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus_Blue wrote:<div></div><div>Notice it's a ranger that has to bring dps into the discussion.  This discussion is not about dps.  So rangers go troll somewhere else please.</div><div> </div><div>If you're a ranger and can't out-parse a rogue, you need to learn to play your class.  That's just stupid.</div><div>And sorcs are not T1 dps (although that may be what some say is intended).  Summoners are.</div><div> </div><div>Back to the subject at hand...</div><div> </div><div>DEVS:  WHY????????</div><div> </div><div>Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Learn to read thanks, I never said I can't Out DPS a rogue, I said Brigands Out DPS Assasins and Sorcerors. AR will still be usefull, this is just an means to an end, that end being to lower brigand DPS.<hr></blockquote>Well the other day on a pedestal raid, our assassin out dpsed me(brigand) by atleast 100dps, PP2 our warlock had over 1kdps more then me on most of the encounters.Each class gots there special ablities that helps the raid/eachother... AR was our ability to help keep the mob debuffed so other classes can do more dps

[Own]

If you looked at a swash they are ALOT more dps then brigand with more ranged attacks aoes , they do not debuff as much as us.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kegofbud wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kegofbud wrote:<div>Agreed, any ranger complaining about our DPS is a lousy Ranger. There, I said it and I meant it. This skill is essential to debuffing consistantly. If the change takes place - as is - our class will be horribly broken. The rest of you classes who don't understand the point of the issue will understand when you don't have a repetitive debuff put in place because of jousting. We are NOT T1 DPS so get over yourselves. I'm sick of hearing the complaints from other classes who only see the little picture. I'm tired of the constant nerfs to our abilities with every expansion. The game is becoming something I don't like.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Again, I never said I can't out DPS Rogues, if you can find where I did say that then I'll give you a silver dollar. Please don't put words in my mouth.</p><p>Oh, and any brigand that can't out dps an assasin or sorceror is a pretty lousy brigand, there I said and I meant it.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'll give you a nice shiny anything if you show me where I quoted you or mentioned you specifically, so go back to your own class forum.<hr></blockquote><p>Well I'm the only ranger here aren't I? Who else would you be quoting,You also were agreeing with the poster above, who directly quoted me, so unless your english skills are lacking, which they clearly aren't. You were refering to me.</p><p>Plus, I welcome you to come to the ranger forums and discuss our nerfs, there's plently of open minded people there willing to talk. I'm allowed to post on things if I so choose. Thanks.</p>

[Kegofbud]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Well I'm the only ranger here aren't I? Who else would you be quoting,You also were agreeing with the poster above, who directly quoted me, so unless your english skills are lacking, which they clearly aren't. You were refering to me.</p><p>Plus, I welcome you to come to the ranger forums and discuss our nerfs, there's plently of open minded people there willing to talk. I'm allowed to post on things if I so choose. Thanks.</p><hr></blockquote>Actually, you weren't the only Ranger in the forum, and I was agreeing with the fact that the nerf was uncalled for, not the person before me. I never quoted anyone. There are plenty of threads on this topic. Thanks.<p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:08 PM</span></p>

[Rezikai]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><p>Brigands were T1 DPS before this change, outparsing assasins and parsing above wizards and Warlocks, now maybe they will be brought back down to tier 2 where they belong. Dodging AE's should require SOME skill, AR just trivialized it.</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Well Mr. Ranger, please tell me the last time you failed to parse at least 150% of the damage of a Brigand.... If Ranger dps is Tier 1, then I don't think a Ranger has room to comment on a Brigands dps being out of the bounds of Tier 2. It's possible for a Ranger to be delivering twice the dps of Brigands in the same raid, not the norm perhaps, but it's not a freakish occurence... just how big of a gap do you think there should be?</p><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<p>Plus your still by far the Best Single Target Debuffers in the game, not sure why you think no one will want a brigand now.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Because as it stands the Brigand is the 2nd least played in the game... not quite sure given that fact how you think this change will improve matters. Or did you think there should be less Brigands that there is? Why do you think there are so many Rangers and so few of the other Scouts?</p><p>Lastly Mr. Ranger if Brigands avoiding AoE trivialises thing, please let me know how Ranger standing outside AoE does anything other that trivialise things.... you really didn't think much about this before you posted... let me remind you, as it appears you forgot....<strong>YOU'RE A RANGER</strong></p><hr></blockquote><p>Im glad someone called this guy on the damage Teir, seriously we were never  really Tier1 damage,.. only if a brigand went massively offensive build w/ nice gear we're we over Dpsing "some" assassin.. and those would be the Assassins that weren't playing their own toon well for DPs,.. go to the assassin forums there's plenty of posts about Assassins complaining about Dps damage compaired to Brigs then their own assassin players ripping them new ones for not knowing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they're doing when trying to get high DPs... I'd post them here now but I'm lazy... I may get to it around my lunchbreak.</p><p>the truth is ... the Devs caved.. to the select few whiners that didn't know how to keep their own damage up, so the looked at brigands doing decently to the high end... and they figured all brigands can pul that off.... the truth of that statment is there were so few of us brigands any of us getting up past lvl 50 HAD to be decent and our numbers in population reflected it... I doubt we'lll see any compromise.. with this dev team tho.. it seems they are still sticking to the 1998 atitiude of "Its our game play it the way we change it" ... which worked oh so well for SWG.. a franchise that literally Billions of people knew about... and is basically a ghost town now... sad really.</p>

[Kegofbud]

<div></div><div></div><p>Exactly Porkchop. There are Brigands who do very nice damage. I can be int he top DPS on almost every raid I go on. WHy? Because I have decent gear and I have EVERY single attack skill Adept 3 or Master. I also know how to play my class very well. I cannot account for people in other classes who don't do so. I have seen plenty of Brigands at different levels who had no clue how to use their skills properly. It happens with every class. I guess it's just easier to nerf the people who play their characters well then it is to fix other classes who are broken.</p><p>Assassins do need a damage upgrade. I know a few very good assassins and they have plenty to say about their class problems. I know Rangers are receiving nerfs too, please don't think I'm advocating that. I have no complaints about the ability of a ranger to do damage. I have a problem with Assassins and Mages not doing enough to equal them to the tier they should be on. I also hav ea problem with people complaining about our skills when they don't know anythin about us but one damned skill.</p><p> </p><p>Edit: I have to punch out of this thread before I gain anymore hatred. This game is supposed to be fun.</p><p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:33 PM</span></p>

[haev]

<div>I don't know where in your head you got that we out dps assassins. Our no 1 assassin can out dps me all the time. Think he waits for dispatch! (and all the nice other debuffs we wont be able to cast when we are dead!)</div>

[Shidonya]

<div><p>PM'd below message...</p><p>I do not believe this skill causes balance issues and therefore should not be changed. We as a class have very little to no range. We as a class are lower dps. Furthermore, AR does not give us any advantages whatsoever to soloing or single group encounters. What AR does do is allow us to do our job as a class and remain in combat to debuff, there is no advantage otherwise, if a raid wipes we wipe too, if a raid gets AE stunned we have to stop attacking or get agro and die, I see no advantage in those regards. I do not see where this will help us and can only hurt all members of our group(s). I know there have been some envious classes but quiet frankly they don't understand what use it really serves. They only see that we are a continuous dps source but I argue that played correctly we are not for dps but the greater benefit of the entire guild/raid/group. Sure we can put out a little dps but this ability would not stop us from doing that removed. Infact I dare say most brigands, those that don't delete will go purely into dps mode now and forget about focusing on debuffs. Which would mean a lost niche.</p></div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>Shidonya wrote:<div><p>PM'd below message...</p><p>I do not believe this skill causes balance issues and therefore should not be changed. We as a class have very little to no range. We as a class are lower dps. Furthermore, AR does not give us any advantages whatsoever to soloing or single group encounters. What AR does do is allow us to do our job as a class and remain in combat to debuff, there is no advantage otherwise, if a raid wipes we wipe too, if a raid gets AE stunned we have to stop attacking or get agro and die, I see no advantage in those regards. I do not see where this will help us and can only hurt all members of our group(s). I know there have been some envious classes but quiet frankly they don't understand what use it really serves. They only see that we are a continuous dps source but I argue that played correctly we are not for dps but the greater benefit of the entire guild/raid/group. Sure we can put out a little dps but this ability would not stop us from doing that removed. Infact I dare say most brigands, those that don't delete will go purely into dps mode now and forget about focusing on debuffs. Which would mean a lost niche.</p></div><hr></blockquote>well said

[Xri]

<div></div><div></div><p>Wow...we have had 2 threads that have made it to 3 pages in the last 6 months, and this one is already on the 4th page....kinda shows how popular this change is huh?</p><p> </p><p>As for Assasins not outdamaging Brigands....it only means one of two things....</p><p>1 - A selfish Brigand who doesn't call out debuffs to the raid</p><p>or</p><p>2 - A stupid Assassin who doesn't save his big hits for those debuffs</p><p> </p><p>If you think anything else...then you are as stupid as the above mentioned Assassin.</p><p> </p><p>EDIT: sorry, 5 pages</p><p>Message Edited by Xrist on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:38 PM</span></p>

[Darchon6]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:   and while they are at it they should nef swashbuckler AE's and poison procs....oh ya lets get the hate between classes going! lets get each other nerfed to the point where we have the exact same ca's have the exact same autoattack and the only diff if our class hats.....<div></div><hr></blockquote>Too bad - our AE auto-attack (hurricane) was nerfed some time ago.  It's now the time for brigands to suffer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Darchon6 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p>

[Magus_Bl]

<div></div><div>There are soooooooo many ways we could have had raid dps nerfed...  This can't be just about dps. </div><div> </div><div>How about make it a 2 sec cast, 36 sec duration, 30 sec recast CA... so that we'll have to waste time casting it every 30 seconds?  That would allow us to retain our AE avoidance and apply debuffs while still nerfing our dps.</div><div> </div><div>But of course we'll never know what this is all about until a dev responds...</div><div> </div><div>Which, of course, none will...</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Magus_Blue on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:49 PM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Porkchop133 wrote:Im glad someone called this guy on the damage Teir, seriously we were never  really Tier1 damage,.. only if a brigand went massively offensive build w/ nice gear we're we over Dpsing "some" assassin.. and those would be the Assassins that weren't playing their own toon well for DPs,.. go to the assassin forums there's plenty of posts about Assassins complaining about Dps damage compaired to Brigs then their own assassin players ripping them new ones for not knowing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they're doing when trying to get high DPs... I'd post them here now but I'm lazy... I may get to it around my lunchbreak.<hr></blockquote><p>And it's worth underlining (entending the quotes comment, not arguing against it), that top of the line Tier 3 Brawlers will challenge the dps of lower rung or slacking Tier 2 Rogues in the same way. Acording to the vision statement that accompanied the introduction of the notion of Tiers this is by design.... The bit that's broken is the fact that Tier 2 Rogues can't get near to challenging Tier 1 Rangers no matter how good or bad the toons might be. Ranger are Tier 0, so I'm really not that interested in a lecture from a Ranger on how brigands are stepping on the toes of Tier 1 while he stands outside AoE in a Tier all his own.</p><p> Perhaps Ranger are going to be adjusted, but the issue is KoS and the adjustments therein, and what they do for Brigands on raids is assure that they will overlap with the Tier 3 and live the other side of a firebreak from Tier 1 while they struggle to perform their utility that was supposed to compensate their reduced dps.... that's why I predict after KoS you're going to see 4 Rangers for every Brigand become 8 Rangers for every Brigand.... don't give me flavour of the month, because 3 times as many level 60s isn't about flavour of the month. It's about a compellingly dominant sub class.</p><p>And to be crystal clear on the matter; no I don't think Rangers need adjusting, as I've said in previous posts long before now. I am and always have been happy with a class shining very brightly in dps like a Ranger. If I want to play one, there's nothing to stop me. What upsets me and some others is that the choice I made to play a Brigand has been invalidated because the basis of that choice has been removed. Presented with the Brigand with no AoE avoidance I would chose Assassin, and that's only because I'd not want to play the Ranger with so many people playing it. I have no ill will toward Rangers, merely those who think it a smart idea to lecture Rogues on their place in the order of things while they're having their spine ripped out.</p><p>If SoEs vision for Rogues is mediocrity, people simply wont play them.</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darchon6 wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:   and while they are at it they should nef swashbuckler AE's and poison procs....oh ya lets get the hate between classes going! lets get each other nerfed to the point where we have the exact same ca's have the exact same autoattack and the only diff if our class hats.....<div></div><hr></blockquote>Too bad - our AE auto-attack (hurricane) was nerfed some time ago.  It's now the time for brigands to suffer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Darchon6 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>From a previous post by Darchon on the Huricane nerf...</p><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>If you know how to play your character well, you would know the huge advantages of hurricane - and why it has to be nerfed.</em></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em></em></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>Lets take dual wield cobalt for example.  Two of these weapons is 31 + 31 damage rating.  With hurricane, it's roughly 31 more damage rating added to your auto attack when dealing with a single target = 93 total damage rating on a single target.</em></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em></em></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>However, lets take Dagger of the Lost Eye (fabled drop from named in Poet's Palace) as another example.  It is a *one handed* weapon with approximately 62 damage rating.  On a single target, you're adding roughly 62 more damage rating using hurricane = 124 total damage rating.</em></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em></em></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>One handed weapons *also* proc alot more than dual wield currently - plus you can use a shield with it.  King zalek's round shield, anyone?</em></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em></em></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>The truth is that I'm doing *alot* more damage with a one handed weapon - made for defense - than dual wield.  Currently, not even 2x T6 fabled dual wields comes close to the damage I'm dealing with a one handed fabled.</em></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em></em></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>When killing a group of mobs w/ a fabled one-hander, Hurricane accounts for at least 30% of my total dps.</em></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em></em></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"><em>I only hope that the nerf isn't too painful.  I want to at least come *close* to a ranger in dps.</em></font></div><div><em><font color="#ffff00"></font></em> </div><div>...your comments are mere spite mate... *shoo*</div>

[Darchon6]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus_Blue wrote:<div></div><div>There are soooooooo many ways we could have had raid dps nerfed...  This can't be just about dps. </div><div> </div><div>How about make it a 2 sec cast, 36 sec duration, 30 sec recast CA... so that we'll have to waste time casting it every 30 seconds?  That would allow us to retain our AE avoidance and apply debuffs while still nerfing our dps.</div><div> </div><div>But of course we'll never know what this is all about until a dev responds...</div><div> </div><div>Which, of course, none will...</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Magus_Blue on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:49 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div>The problem is that brigands were able to dps and land their debuffs without any risk (unless you're dumb enough to pull aggro).  They  don't require any maintenance in raids (healing / rezing after an AoE).  Their ability to land debuffs without any risk of dying to an AoE made them far too valuable on raids and much more preferable over certain classes - such as assassins and swashbucklers.  Want proof?  Here's a couple examples:</div><div> </div><div>-Iniquity's member roster - holy cow, look at all the brigands!  and only two swashbucklers and assassins... hmm.  This happens to be a guild which took out pedestal of sky.</div><div><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=34206" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=34206</a></div><div> </div><div>-Also, take a look at a recent post in the brigand forum.  Second Dawn - one of the top raiding guilds worldwide - is recruiting more brigands.. go figure.</div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=6846" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=6846</a></div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong, swashbucklers have their own uses on raids - lung puncture can save the MT's life <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, it's pointless if I'm required to throw tiny daggers at the epic from a range because it has an AoE or two - which includes all named epics except those in ppr and godking.  It doesn't matter how good of resist gear I have, the AEs will eventually kill me because most healers would be too focused on keeping the MT(s) alive to bother with me - except when I'm lying on the ground needing rezed. =p</div><p>Message Edited by Darchon6 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>Mr ChaosRANJA...heres what ur looking for and what you fail to understand.</p><p> </p><p>Per my joining my guild, guild ranjas, assassins, Wizzys and Warlocks were doing approx 250 dps on any said raid mob...</p><p> </p><p>Since I have joined the guild and in my role, I have seen them go over 600.</p><p> </p><p>Thats a pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] big diff in the dps FOR THE ENTIRE RAID.</p><p> </p><p>I have yet to see any brigand claim to be T1, if you have a brigand in your guild on a t6 raid out dpsing u, you got some serious problems man.  Every now and then I beat everyone in the raid on dps...wanna know why? cause the others have to either sit back for a portion of the fight, or they are dead. </p><p> </p><p>Again as it has been stated, this isnt about dps, has 0 to do with dps.  If you will take the time to read all 5 pages, youll see that not 1 single brigand is saying anything about how uber their dps is.  On the other hand, you do see them saying, we use it to get in and debuff a mob so that classes like you can do MORE dps.  Also...im sure youd be livid if they took away your massive single shot that does amazing dmg, im sure assassins would be livid over losing assassinate...hence why we are upset that we are pretty much losing the AR ability.</p><p> </p><p>We cant dispell all dmg shields, we can only dispell beneficial divine.  We dont get a uber dmg hit, and we are here to help the raid do better.  You contributing to we should be nerfed is only hurting you, your guild and your raid in the long run.  I would expect to see everyone and their brother on our side of the fence on this...well that would be if you really understood what a brigand does.</p><p> </p><p>Ill even bet you dont see brigands bringing hate over to the ranja boards, so why the hate here? Dont bring on some everyones gonna be nerfed fannboy BS cause no one here is buying it.</p>

[PritchMR]

<div></div><div>heck if it was all about dps i would take an overall nerf to all my combat arts so i have lower dps that way my job on the raid is to make all the other classes better and geeze for some reason i love that.  dont take away the one thing that has given us a little nitch</div>

[Damari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darchon6 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus_Blue wrote:<div></div><div>There are soooooooo many ways we could have had raid dps nerfed...  This can't be just about dps. </div><div> </div><div>How about make it a 2 sec cast, 36 sec duration, 30 sec recast CA... so that we'll have to waste time casting it every 30 seconds?  That would allow us to retain our AE avoidance and apply debuffs while still nerfing our dps.</div><div> </div><div>But of course we'll never know what this is all about until a dev responds...</div><div> </div><div>Which, of course, none will...</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Magus_Blue on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:49 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div>The problem is that brigands were able to dps and land their debuffs without any risk (unless you're dumb enough to pull aggro).  They  don't require any maintenance in raids (healing / rezing after an AoE).  Their ability to land debuffs without any risk of dying to an AoE made them far too valuable on raids and much more preferable over certain classes - such as assassins and swashbucklers.  Want proof?  Here's a couple examples:</div><div> </div><div>-Iniquity's member roster - holy cow, look at all the brigands!  and only two swashbucklers and assassins... hmm.  This happens to be a guild which took out pedestal of sky.</div><div><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=34206" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=34206</a></div><div> </div><div>-Also, take a look at a recent post in the brigand forum.  Second Dawn - one of the top raiding guilds worldwide - is recruiting more brigands.. go figure.</div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=6846" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=6846</a></div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong, swashbucklers have their own uses on raids - lung puncture can save the MT's life <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, it's pointless if I'm required to throw tiny daggers at the epic from a range because it has an AoE or two - which includes all named epics except those in ppr and godking.  It doesn't matter how good of resist gear I have, the AEs will eventually kill me because most healers would be too focused on keeping the MT(s) alive to bother with me - except when I'm lying on the ground needing rezed. =p</div><p>Message Edited by Darchon6 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>So <u>it is class envy</u> then Mr swashy.</p><p>What you and the ranger fail to realise is that if we brigands have to joust, we effectively become T4 dps.  If an assassin can do 900+ on a non-AoE raid but only 450-500 on an AoE heavy raid, how much is the brigand going to do if theyre currently parsing 550? IMO, any preditor class that can't out-dps me even jousting on a raid is wasting a spot.</p><p>We are a DPS class, we are supposed to do DPS.  This whole tier system was doomed to fail from its conception because there will always be good players, average player, poor players and forums for poor players to cry on.</p>

[Darchon6]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Damari wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darchon6 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus_Blue wrote:<div></div><div>There are soooooooo many ways we could have had raid dps nerfed...  This can't be just about dps. </div><div> </div><div>How about make it a 2 sec cast, 36 sec duration, 30 sec recast CA... so that we'll have to waste time casting it every 30 seconds?  That would allow us to retain our AE avoidance and apply debuffs while still nerfing our dps.</div><div> </div><div>But of course we'll never know what this is all about until a dev responds...</div><div> </div><div>Which, of course, none will...</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Magus_Blue on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:49 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div>The problem is that brigands were able to dps and land their debuffs without any risk (unless you're dumb enough to pull aggro).  They  don't require any maintenance in raids (healing / rezing after an AoE).  Their ability to land debuffs without any risk of dying to an AoE made them far too valuable on raids and much more preferable over certain classes - such as assassins and swashbucklers.  Want proof?  Here's a couple examples:</div><div> </div><div>-Iniquity's member roster - holy cow, look at all the brigands!  and only two swashbucklers and assassins... hmm.  This happens to be a guild which took out pedestal of sky.</div><div><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=34206" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=34206</a></div><div> </div><div>-Also, take a look at a recent post in the brigand forum.  Second Dawn - one of the top raiding guilds worldwide - is recruiting more brigands.. go figure.</div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=6846" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=6846</a></div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong, swashbucklers have their own uses on raids - lung puncture can save the MT's life <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, it's pointless if I'm required to throw tiny daggers at the epic from a range because it has an AoE or two - which includes all named epics except those in ppr and godking.  It doesn't matter how good of resist gear I have, the AEs will eventually kill me because most healers would be too focused on keeping the MT(s) alive to bother with me - except when I'm lying on the ground needing rezed. =p</div><p>Message Edited by Darchon6 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>So <u>it is class envy</u> then Mr swashy.</p><p>What you and the ranger fail to realise is that if we brigands have to joust, we effectively become T4 dps.  If an assassin can do 900+ on a non-AoE raid but only 450-500 on an AoE heavy raid, how much is the brigand going to do if theyre currently parsing 550? IMO, any preditor class that can't out-dps me even jousting on a raid is wasting a spot.</p><p>We are a DPS class, we are supposed to do DPS.  This whole tier system was doomed to fail from its conception because there will always be good players, average player, poor players and forums for poor players to cry on.</p><hr></blockquote><p>This brings me back to my first point.  There is nothing keeping SoE from adding new ranged attack CA lines to brigands to make jousting more effective.  The fact of the matter is that brigands are currently allowed to do what their class is supposed to do 100% of the time while swashes are off on the sidelines on most raids doing 50% the damage of a ranger without anything to make up for it.  We can't debuff at a range.</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darchon6 wrote:<div></div><p>This brings me back to my first point.  There is nothing keeping SoE from adding new ranged attack CA lines to brigands to make jousting more effective.  The fact of the matter is that brigands are currently allowed to do what their class is supposed to do 100% of the time while swashes are off on the sidelines on most raids doing 50% the damage of a ranger without anything to make up for it.  We can't debuff at a range.</p><hr></blockquote><p>The fact is though while there's nothing to stop them adding ranged CA for Brigands, they haven't added Ranged CAs for Brigands, so if Swashies are doing 50% of Rangers, Brigands will be doing substantially less. You'll excuse us if we try and get some dev attention on this... if you're not happy with the lot of Swashies on raids do likewise, but you're standing on the sidelines jumping up and down yelling "nyah-nyah-nyah", helps nobody including Swashies.</p><p>I'll ask you nicely, please stop while we try and resolve this issue among ourselves. You'll inflame tempers, then the whole thing will simply desolve into a flame-fest which we really don't need right now. This isn't about Brigands vs Swashies, please don't try and make it such.</p>

[Shidonya]

<div></div><p>The point is ... I don't care what a swashie can or cannot do I didn't make one I made a brigand therefore I don't concern myself with their matters for that matter I don't even know the name of any of their spells. If you would like the ability to stand in on a mob again I say make a brigand but be prepared to be disappointed if you think your gonna be there to button spam for dps cause you'll be sadly mistaken.</p><p>You have no clue what a sideline is: For the first 30 levels I was solo cause no one wanted us, I paid my dues with a population of 1/3 that of quenos and only 1% of entire servers it was even harder to find groups and once the level barriers of zones permited me to group with goodies they knew nothing about us and we still have to remind them what we can do even today (can I get a rez...um no I'm not a bard).</p><p>If you have a problem with your class then go get it fixed we didn't have a problem with ours so we didn't, nor did (can't speak for all) most of us go to your boards saying that's not fair cause we didn't care what you could do. If I cared I'd made one a long time ago.</p>

[ag]

Well the blood from the chum sack apparently brought out the lurking sharks (read: that swashie and ranger) which is good for us, now we know who to watch out for. It's a pity you can't be happy and sad for others, you two, but empathy isn't a requirement for playing EQ2, I know. I don't call for nerfs to other classes, I'm happy when they're riding the wave. I'm sad when they're brought low. While I can't claim that I've never spoke negatively about another class (in jest or serious), it's certainly not my standard <i>modus operandi.</i>Now...They gave us the Amazing Reflexes skill with the understanding that as a pure melee class (one ranged CA!) we need to be up close and personal with Epic encounters. Sounds reasonable.Now they are removing that ability. This has Brigands concerned. Personally, I would rather AE avoidance <b>removed from the game for everyone, forever</b> than nerf Brigands this badly and give a better version to four other sub-classes. (remember, I'm selfish) Furthermore, I want to go back in time and prevent SOE from giving us the skill in the first place, so I wouldn't have this bitter taste of bile (disappointment) in my mouth, either. However, as time travel currently not one of my abilities, posting on the forums will have to do for the moment.I don't give a tanglefly fart in a hurricane about anyone elses DPS, utility, position in the Tier system, or otherwise. I have only one focus: Brigands. I've already recieved my smacks on the hand (or uh.. face, as the case may be) from the Assassin and Swashbuckler forums, both here and in Betas. I no longer involve myself in the affairs of other sub-classes, because they're not interested in my opinions.That being said, thanks for the page count. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[stelle]

<div>so AR is the ONLY reason to make a brigand?  if there was why was there any lvl 50 brigands before DoF?</div>

[ag]

Depends on your perspective, stellarx. It certainly wasn't my reason for making a Brigand, as I made my Brigand on the first day I logged into EQ2.However, many Brigands have been made since DoF released, purely because of Amazing Reflexes. For some of them, AR was the only reason to make their alternate or new character.And yet we are still less than 1.9% of the gamewide population @L60, and less than 1.4% gamewide from Level 20-60. Just so you understand the audience here, it's <i>very</i>small. There are an average of 14-15 Level 60 Brigands per server as of last week. Some as few as 5.

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Depends on your perspective, stellarx. It certainly wasn't my reason for making a Brigand, as I made my Brigand on the first day I logged into EQ2.However, many Brigands have been made since DoF released, purely because of Amazing Reflexes. For some of them, AR was the only reason to make their alternate or new character.And yet we are still less than 1.9% of the gamewide population @L60, and less than 1.4% gamewide from Level 20-60. Just so you understand the audience here, it's <i>very</i>small. There are an average of 14-15 Level 60 Brigands per server as of last week. Some as few as 5.<hr></blockquote>some people play brigand for ARI dont, but reason i dont want this nerfed is i will become useless on raids. No reason to even play, just to get replaced by a ranger.

[aron]

<div></div><p>Hello All,</p><p>I don't post on forums much just when I see alot of [Removed for Content] and moaning and this time is one of them. I am a Swashy the only one in our guild and we have one Brigand also. This nerf to AR pisses me off to know end! I made my choice when I clicked on select class Swaswhy she made hers when she clicked Brigand! I love the fact my brigand can stand in there and deal damage in the middle of aoes because the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mob dies faster and we get the chest for the win mate! The whole concept of raiding is not the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e tiers of damage but facing a Foe and beating him to death, to get that chest for the win period. All this you have that and I don't and class balanced to make even [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e  is for those COWBOYS destined for the PVP servers. We all accepted the role we choose  when chose our guild and said HELL YA I WANNA RAID! There is no place for cowboys in a raid force they get you wiped alot! There is no I in team! All the class envy and he has we don't needs to stop. I love my brigand and on raids she makes us all look good. Hell we prey she casts Dispatch then we all go bananas! Therefore the mob dies faster and we get the chest for the win. In the end the cowboys will go to PVP the team players will be here raiding like we always do. I raise my mugg to my Brigand compadres by god u guys make us all look good and give us something to talk about. Were all rogues in the end just us Swashys are sexier hehe. That's my 2 cents !</p>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Well the blood from the chum sack apparently brought out the lurking sharks (read: that swashie and ranger) which is good for us, now we know who to watch out for. It's a pity you can't be happy and sad for others, you two, but empathy isn't a requirement for playing EQ2, I know. I don't call for nerfs to other classes, I'm happy when they're riding the wave. I'm sad when they're brought low. While I can't claim that I've never spoke negatively about another class (in jest or serious), it's certainly not my standard <i>modus operandi.</i>Now...They gave us the Amazing Reflexes skill with the understanding that as a pure melee class (one ranged CA!) we need to be up close and personal with Epic encounters. Sounds reasonable.Now they are removing that ability. This has Brigands concerned. Personally, I would rather AE avoidance <b>removed from the game for everyone, forever</b> than nerf Brigands this badly and give a better version to four other sub-classes. (remember, I'm selfish) Furthermore, I want to go back in time and prevent SOE from giving us the skill in the first place, so I wouldn't have this bitter taste of bile (disappointment) in my mouth, either. However, as time travel currently not one of my abilities, posting on the forums will have to do for the moment.I don't give a tanglefly fart in a hurricane about anyone elses DPS, utility, position in the Tier system, or otherwise. I have only one focus: Brigands. I've already recieved my smacks on the hand (or uh.. face, as the case may be) from the Assassin and Swashbuckler forums, both here and in Betas. I no longer involve myself in the affairs of other sub-classes, because they're not interested in my opinions.That being said, thanks for the page count. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote><p>This is the best post in the 5 pages.  I fully agree and support this 100%, its a shame that others cant adhear to this level of class.  Im sitting here baffeled about the fact that if I was so concerned about a class I didnt play that I went to their board and trolled for conflict, how much could I honnestly add to the class I really was playing's board.  Seems like a complete waste of time to me, altho some ppl just have too much time on their hands.</p><p> </p><p>Try this, instead of worrying so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] much about something, someone, someclass that effects you about 0...o wait less than 0.  Go to your class board and try to do something positive for your class.  And if you already have, go back and do more.  Ive been reading the Brigand boards since EQ2 came out and I have to say (tho I havent posted much), great group of ppl here.</p><p> </p><p>I also have posted the link for this thread on my guilds internal members board and asked members who know me and raid with me to come post some <font size="5"><strong>CONSTRUCTIVE</strong> </font><font size="3">feedback to help us out.  Maybe we all should do the same.  </font></p><p><font size="3"></font> </p><p><font size="3">Call me an idiot, but I have a weird feeling that most of the larger t6 raiding guilds arent happy about this change.</font></p>

[Golbezz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>Interesting, I wonder how you managed before DoF Came out:smileysurprised:. Regardless they're are many ways to nerf a class's DPS, wether directly or indirectly. This one happens to be an indirect nerf. The Ends Justify the Means.</div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#0099ff">The skill was added to help out a class that was unbalanced, but in that case was underpowered.</font></p><p><font color="#0099ff">I hope you don't feel too safe, I have a feeling rangers will be hit hard with the nerf bat soon. The less played classes can use the high percentage of rangers compared to other scout types as justification to nerf the class even if a nerf isn't required for balance, as was the case with brigands. Changing AE immunity lowers the brigand DPS. It also lowers the dps for EVERYONE on the raid. </font><font color="#0099ff">It won't be the brigands complaining that gets rangers nerfed again and again... no, it will be othe other DPS classes that do the job. Most likely mage types I suspect. There are too few brigands to get rangers nerfed alone, but watch out, the nerf bat will be hitting rangers again if those mages feel you are too powerful.</font></p><p><font color="#0099ff">I would certainly hope any brigands look at your attitude before joining your guild (yes I saw the recruiting posts). I can't imagine why any brigand would want to join a guild where rangers are saying a nerf of brigands is justified.</font></p><p><font color="#0099ff">Maybe SoE should nerf fighter taunts so rangers die more often since they are 'immune' to the normal closer range AE due to the distance from the mob. That would be fun to watch, and don't expect brigands to use beseech to save you either.</font></p>

[cultus_fer]

<div>i don't understand why other scouts would be jealous of a class that nobody plays?   is that not the most [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing to do?</div><div>if you want that ability, make that class.</div>

[verydanger]

This is getting ridiculous... we cant debuff the mob without complete AE avoidance? Even on a mob with a 50k AE every 15 seconds you can run in, do dispatch + debilitate + murderous rake + double up, then stay back 60 seconds until they have refreshed again. If it still seems impossible, ask any swashie how they have been applying their debuffs lately. Hell you can even ask a brigand who made his toon BEFORE Reflexes, I had no problems debuffing mobs even back in the Wrath of Fury days.What the proposed changes to AR however will do, is cut down on our DPS... on CERTAIN encounters. Not all. I havent seen much of the T6 raid content, but I seriously doubt too many encounter have AE's that will oneshot a brigand with a competent healer in group and resist gear/cures for the current AE type. If you do not have those things, or if the AE indeed is instakill no matter what (again, I really doubt there are many such, if any), then you will have to joust. Its nothing new, we did it before revamp, assasins and swashies still are doing it. It just requires some attention, as oppose to just clicking a permanent buff and then forgetting about it.I dont even see what the big deal about AR was/is, 10% increased hate means 10% less DPS/debuffs/interrupts, unless you are too lazy to be pushing the limits of what your aggro output allows. For that reason I dont see it as more than a situational ability, not something you click as soon as you take AE damage, or even worse, something that defines who we are and what we can bring to a raid.But thats just me, it seems.<div></div>

[Own]

We Have ALOT more usefully debuffs then dispatch/debiliate/rake ALOT more that have fast recast timers/short duration that are critical to raids

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:This is getting ridiculous... we cant debuff the mob without complete AE avoidance? Even on a mob with a 50k AE every 15 seconds you can run in, do dispatch + debilitate + murderous rake + double up, then stay back 60 seconds until they have refreshed again. If it still seems impossible, ask any swashie how they have been applying their debuffs lately. Hell you can even ask a brigand who made his toon BEFORE Reflexes, I had no problems debuffing mobs even back in the Wrath of Fury days.What the proposed changes to AR however will do, is cut down on our DPS... on CERTAIN encounters. Not all. I havent seen much of the T6 raid content, but I seriously doubt too many encounter have AE's that will oneshot a brigand with a competent healer in group and resist gear/cures for the current AE type. If you do not have those things, or if the AE indeed is instakill no matter what (again, I really doubt there are many such, if any), then you will have to joust. Its nothing new, we did it before revamp, assasins and swashies still are doing it. It just requires some attention, as oppose to just clicking a permanent buff and then forgetting about it.I dont even see what the big deal about AR was/is, 10% increased hate means 10% less DPS/debuffs/interrupts, unless you are too lazy to be pushing the limits of what your aggro output allows. For that reason I dont see it as more than a situational ability, not something you click as soon as you take AE damage, or even worse, something that defines who we are and what we can bring to a raid.But thats just me, it seems.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>wait till t6 finishes changing...even better wait till u start hitting t7 raid mobs.  Also every minute dont cut it on debuffs.</p><p>I think this post has outlined major flaws in it.</p>

[cultus_fer]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Neue Regel wrote:</p><p>Im sitting here baffeled about the fact that if I was so concerned about a class I didnt play that I went to their board and trolled for conflict, how much could I honnestly add to the class I really was playing's board.  Seems like a complete waste of time to me, altho some ppl just have too much time on their hands.</p><p> </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>it apparantly worked in getting brigand nerfed.    it doesn't help that maybe 2% of worldwide population can't defend themselves or even be heard, when you've got so many rangers/mages doing the complaining.    if this were real life situation, we'd be the native americans!

[OdinR]

if this nerf does indeed go live there will be a name change required as there is nothing amazing about it. i vote for mediocore reflexes<div></div>

[Atrocity]

I've thought this as well, here's a few of my suggested names:mediocre reflexesslothlike refelxesaura of the doormatprotection of the wet tissueclobber II<div></div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>Atrocity wrote:I've thought this as well, here's a few of my suggested names:mediocre reflexesslothlike refelxesaura of the doormatprotection of the wet tissueclobber II<div></div><hr></blockquote>lol those made me laugh in RL, PotWT is best imo

[stelle]

<div>as i see it, Gonna need to work on our RESISTS some</div><div> </div><div>idealy, AR absorbs an aoe, we take next say 3k or so, healers healing we absorb next aoe</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>i feel resist gear is gonna be KEY for brigands in the next months</div>

[verydanger]

Neue Regel, if you're gonna point out that my post is flawed, you might as well want to elobarote on it?How is T6 changing, and how will T7 differ?You only bring up one point really, about our 60 sec recast debuffs not being our only ones. That's very true, but in a full raid the effects of our attack speed/defense/Agility/Strength debuffs are minimal at best. The cap for debuffs is 50% and we are far from the only class debuffing those attributes. Our taunt (dispel) can be used from distance, as can our snare (disease debuff). That really just leaves our parry debuff, which has 36 second duration, and can easily be landed twice a minute by jousting.If we cant land our debuffs without having complete AE immunity, what does that say about the brigand playerbase in comparison to the swashbucklers? They are doing the exact thing (spamming melee range debuffs) as we are, but without the luxury of AE immunity, go figure?Think people are about to realise how overhyped the importance of AR has become once they reintroduce themselves to AE timing, jousting, buying resist gear/potions, and actually paying attention once again...<div></div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:Neue Regel, if you're gonna point out that my post is flawed, you might as well want to elobarote on it?How is T6 changing, and how will T7 differ?You only bring up one point really, about our 60 sec recast debuffs not being our only ones. That's very true, but in a full raid the effects of our attack speed/defense/Agility/Strength debuffs are minimal at best. The cap for debuffs is 50% and we are far from the only class debuffing those attributes. Our taunt (dispel) can be used from distance, as can our snare (disease debuff). That really just leaves our parry debuff, which has 36 second duration, and can easily be landed twice a minute by jousting.If we cant land our debuffs without having complete AE immunity, what does that say about the brigand playerbase in comparison to the swashbucklers? They are doing the exact thing (spamming melee range debuffs) as we are, but without the luxury of AE immunity, go figure?Think people are about to realise how overhyped the importance of AR has become once they reintroduce themselves to AE timing, jousting, buying resist gear/potions, and actually paying attention once again...<div></div><hr></blockquote>never knew our snare debuffed disease always thought it was cold guess its just a misprint on my screen ? mobs also have alot more adds alot more aoes , its alot tougher then the crappy easy stuff in t6.I dont wanna taunt a mob as aggro is hard enuf as it is<p>Message Edited by Dragonmerc on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:34 PM</span></p>

[Golbezz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:If we cant land our debuffs without having complete AE immunity, what does that say about the brigand playerbase in comparison to the swashbucklers? They are doing the exact thing (spamming melee range debuffs) as we are, but without the luxury of AE immunity, go figure?Think people are about to realise how overhyped the importance of AR has become once they reintroduce themselves to AE timing, jousting, buying resist gear/potions, and actually paying attention once again...<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#0066ff">I don't think it's an issue of being lazy or not knowing how to avoid AE, it's a combat art that was given to brigands that balanced things a bit.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">If the concern was the DPS of brigands the damage output of some combat arts could have been reduced. Changing AR reduces the dps of the whole raid. It should also be noted that the changes to AR do NOTHING when there is no AE involved (no AE on a raid target would mean the brigand switches off AR anyway). If DPS was the reason for the AR nerf they screwed up because the only time it will matter is in raid situations with AE attacks. It does nothing to change the DPS of a brigand in solo or group settings either.</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">I have the extra gear that could be used for resists, I can make potions as well with my alchemist alt. I raided as a Paladin sometimes when needed and I know how to run in and out to avoid AE. The change would not make much of a difference in the way I play my class other than waiting to attack until a damage shield has been dropped if the raid encounter has AE and never using any health to power item if it causes AR to drop. The real difference would be how useful my class would be to the raid. </font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">The importance of AR isn't in how well a brigand can do the job, it's having a skill that sets them apart from other dps classes and it allows the other classes to do their jobs better.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I suspect most of the complaints come from not the DPS issues people try to link to AR, but the DEATH issues from close range melee dps classes that either miss the call to run out for AE or happen to have someone calling the AE's that screwed up on the timing. </font></p><p><font color="#0099ff">Most of the deaths I see from other close range DPS classes are because those players simply do not listen to the raid leader telling people to run out before the AE hits. The real problem seems to be the way some raid leaders think. Maybe if there were no respawn points in instanced raid zones the raid leaders would be more interested in keeping the DPS alive rather than just telling them to revive if they die (K'Dal for example). Then those DPS classes would not hate our AR skill so much if it saved the raid from a wipe lockout (monk group FD + brigand AR = surviving a wipe against AE mob even if the monk is killed by the AE while the group FD is active).</font></p>

[Shidonya]

<div></div><div></div><p>Fine AR takes first AE for me and goes down,</p><p>Next on call out I'll use deception (immune to ae's) stay in since it's broke and never draws agro cancel by hitting x,</p><p>Debuff</p><p>Reapply AR, hows that.</p><p>Lets just exploit deception bug something they refuse to fix to get around something they insist on breaking.</p><p>Deception may have a use in raids afterall.</p><p>Message Edited by Shidonya on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:18 PM</span></p>

[stelle]

<div>seems like a good plan, between  the AR recast, deception , maybe a tiny joust, and a heal from a healers,</div><div> </div><div>just gotta use what we got</div>

[M2t]

Another [Removed for Content] off brigand, i've been laughed at from my guildies all day while Oasis has been down for 23 hours now (Server merge)One person says "Why are we getting this spell taken away"Other person replies " Assassins"I cannot tell you how much i heart you for saying that, My boyfriend plays a 60 assassin, as soon as he heard I had gotten that spell, it's been a never ending "I dont understand why you get that, assassins should get it. It would make more sense if a real dps class had it....."How I feel about it is, it benefits us and them, we get to stay in and debuff, so that they can do more damage....Make sense??? The answer is yes, but try telling an assassin or a ranger. The reason why no one will ever be satisfied with their class is because we have lame [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kids moaning about spells other class have that they dont....why not just make a super class, take all the whiners, move them to their own personal server, and let them have at it. Call it EverCry, for all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kids that never got hugged enough from their parents.My suggestion was to make it like any other spell, when and if it gets upgraded you reduce the chances, and depending on what it is, master 1, adept 3....so on.Yeah I get a few thug friends, if i wanted a *Beep Beep* pet, i woulda rolled a conj/necro<div></div>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>ouch yea a 60 brigand in a guild lvl 26 guild, that isnt sure about what our debuffs do.  I guess I cant expect u to know that mobs in goaa and coa have undispellable dmg shields.</p><p> </p><p>since u dit know, i guess youll find out. yea its about continual debffs, which means we arent going to be able to keep that going.  yes theres a way arround it im sure, but the many pages of the post have again outlined many issues with it.</p><p> </p><p>heya aux, remind him he got assassinate.  how many skills can u give one class, if anyone should get this it with us should be our rogue counterpart sbs.  but I guess thats more class envy, which im almost sick to my stomache of. </p><p> </p><p>yes I can run in and out continually, overall raid dps will be lowered, our dps will be lowered. and as the old saying goes, dont know what u got till its gone.  for the naysayers, just you wait till it goes live, wait till the tons of complaints come on. </p><p> </p><p>The thing that gets me is the ppl who are in the beta and can see this denouce it hard, thats pretty much good enough for me.</p>

[Doran]

<div></div>Indeed it is sad to see the glee expressed by others.  All last night the word was out about this negative change and much ribbing ensued.  It truly is cowardly and low of certain folks to whine and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in their own forums about others, and then come to the affecteds board to defend said nerfs they pushed for and tell us why we are too powerful and need to suck it up.  Don't come here to gloat, if you are not a Brigand your input on this issue and what we are trying to stop has absolutely no value.  Don't go away mad, just go away.

[Tokam]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Depends on your perspective, stellarx. It certainly wasn't my reason for making a Brigand, as I made my Brigand on the first day I logged into EQ2.However, many Brigands have been made since DoF released, purely because of Amazing Reflexes. For some of them, AR was the only reason to make their alternate or new character.And yet we are still less than 1.9% of the gamewide population @L60, and less than 1.4% gamewide from Level 20-60. Just so you understand the audience here, it's <i>very</i>small. There are an average of 14-15 Level 60 Brigands per server as of last week. Some as few as 5.<hr></blockquote>I play brigand for single target debuffs and for going /ra AoE???? - I have a macro and everything <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes a brigand is my alt along with my provisioner main (shh dont tell dominion) and yes I rolled her post DoF. Seems like a knee jerk reaction from SoE but it's not like they have a track record of making intelligent, considered changes to the game is it.

[AratornCalahn]

If they wanted to nerf our DPS, they could just reduce the damage.This is a nerf, plain and simple, to our raid usefulness. True brigands prefer to debuff than DPS anyway. If they really want to reduce the guilds who get laods and loads of brigands to try and minimise the effect of AOEs then we should just get a thrid stance... called "Stance: Debuff" where our DPS is massivly lowered but our debuffs are the same and our AOE avoid is NOT NERFED.Works for me  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div><p>ouch yea a 60 brigand in a guild lvl 26 guild, that isnt sure about what our debuffs do.  I guess I cant expect u to know that mobs in goaa and coa have undispellable dmg shields.</p><p> </p><p>since u dit know, i guess youll find out. yea its about continual debffs, which means we arent going to be able to keep that going.  yes theres a way arround it im sure, but the many pages of the post have again outlined many issues with it.</p><p> </p><p>heya aux, remind him he got assassinate.  how many skills can u give one class, if anyone should get this it with us should be our rogue counterpart sbs.  but I guess thats more class envy, which im almost sick to my stomache of. </p><p> </p><p>yes I can run in and out continually, overall raid dps will be lowered, our dps will be lowered. and as the old saying goes, dont know what u got till its gone.  for the naysayers, just you wait till it goes live, wait till the tons of complaints come on. </p><p> </p><p>The thing that gets me is the ppl who are in the beta and can see this denouce it hard, thats pretty much good enough for me.</p><hr></blockquote>I know very well what our debuffs do (and yes I mixed up the brigand and dirge snare, cold vs disease debuff). And I never implied that all damage shields would be dispelable.Continual debuffs? As in needing to land debuffs more often than 30-60 second intervals (all our debuffs but Shrouded Blade)? Well if you absolutely insist on always keeping Shrouded Blade on the mob when shamans/warriors/whoever/hex dolls/priest master smites most certainly have debuffed the mobs attack speed way beyond the cap already, yeah then I guess jousting wont cut it.Sorry, but I'm just not seeing the 'issues' that people bring up here. All I hear is, we cant debuff if we arent AE immune. If you want me to write a tutorial on how to keep all our relevent debuffs up on a mob by simply running up to it twice every minute and then staying back the rest of the time to avoid AE, I guess I can do that. I mean, would be a shame to have a whole guilds collective DPS lowered just because their brigand cant figure out how to do that themselves...</span></div>

[HoD]

<div></div><p>It truthfully wouldn't be so terrible if every proc that went off didn't kill AR.  Especially considering the encounters we'll be facing in KoS.</p><p>What we STILL desperately need is some Dev/producer feedback.</p><p>Threads like this are exactly what the producers need to see.  Keep the constructive replies coming!</p><p>=======================</p><p>Now for the unconstructive part...</p><p>1. How am I supposed to steal hamburgers if I can't avoid AEs? - mobs usually know when you've stolen one and throw an ae off.</p><p>2. The good news is that I'll be one of the first people to 70 because I won't have to attend raids and can spend all of my time grinding.</p>

[lungbutter]

<div></div><p>This AR nerf will destroy us...</p><p>The main focus of the Brigand is to debuff in raids now with this nerf we take even a single point of damage (hello dam shlds !!!) and we lose it and die from the AOE (unless you have the seconds left until the next aoe and its under 30 seconds heh). In my opinion a single point of damage (T1) to dispell a level 52 ability (T6) is totally stupid and such seems a quick fix nerf to keep the other HIGHER DPS scouts from crying so much. We cant even use the hp to mana items or take any chanter buffs to bring our dps up to a ranger/assassin grade for fear of agro.</p><p>If you are going to nerf us think about it, ideas like 1/3 hp etc of damage before dispell of the AR is a sound idea as much as i hate to say because no point have debuffs if we dont even get a chance to use them.</p><p>Knowing SOE and the nerfs they love to do it will go thru as is and will we get shafted and Brigands will be the Rangers of EQ1. If this is the case we will have no use in raids (As we have no ranged dps, our stuns no longer work on epics and our melee dps is crap) what so ever we will be nothing but bench warmers so then the question to be asked is, why bother playing one? should i even bother purchasing KoS?</p><p>Skina</p><p>60 Brig (Defiance)</p><p> Lucan Dlere</p>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div>I would be very suprised to find out this is a dps issue, it cant be.  They just raised our dps.  Hence why I would like to see some dev feedback on this matter also.

[kyth]

   having mostly short recast moderate damamge CA's means jousting/dodging ae's will lower our DPS.  not by a little but by a good ammount...  Oh well<div></div>

[Eris]

<div></div><p>Please Chix, as it stands on DH site, you didnt take on any T6 raids but LJ. In T6 raids, debuffing is a must so yes even our lowly def/parry/agi/str/attk speed debuff are important. Especially in the first few sec of the fight or more against multiple mobs fight when the raid debuffers are spread around. In that matter, AR is a must. You lack the raiding background to comment on usefunlness of the whole range of brig debuffs in T6 and soon to come T7 raids.</p>

[Gull Fuzzynuts]

<div></div><p>/sigh just another upset Brigand here, dont post much as i usually read and giggle at what our 'small' community post, wishing to take sometime to make a reply to add to this thread to try and make this more 'noticable' and stick out about  MAJOR issues brought forward by fello Brigand's and those Smart Raiders that see the value in...</p><p>**A class that helps other classes do their best**</p><p>the AR was something that allow us to do thus, and no way was it unbalanced as all the points as to why have been told a number of times and im not gong to repeat!</p><p>agh the pain</p><p>Gull</p><p>Human 60 Brig...Oggok</p><p>p.s Raids are for teamplayers..no LEEROY's can benifit! (pardon the pun from an old WoW raid vid we all prob have viewed, fun to watch but wouldnt be fun to play along side)</p>

[Magus_Bl]

<div>Uh yeah... if all you've done is Lockjaw, you don't even know what AoE is... so no need to comment on AR.</div><div><font size="4"></font> </div><div><font size="4"></font> </div><div><font size="4">DEVS :  WHY?</font></div>

[Neen]

<div></div><div></div><div>Every class should have a nice ability that sets them apart and makes them usefull to a grp/raid and this was one we had. Ok, clobber does not count :smileywink:</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>60 Brigand</p><p>Unrest</p><p>oh yeah...PM'ed</p><p>Message Edited by Neenax on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:18 AM</span></p>

[Mentallydu]

Just my thoughts....Brigands do de-buff's and some dps in a raid and, as has been said, with the proposed changes to AR the entire raid's dps will go down when facing a AE mob which gives said mob a longer life and thus a much better chance of wiping the raid.Now, i havn't been in beta but  i hear that a lot of the mobs have AE....Maybe this is SOE way of making the t7 mobs harder to kill without having to put any real thought into it.. and an easyfix at that. As we are less than 2% of the population this lets (SOE) really mess up one class and if they complain, so what..., instead of re-balancing the other 98% of the population and the mobs. And hey, it's not our(SOE) fault if brigands can't play theirclass properly is it....And as for certain guilds recuriting brigands... Maybe they've worked out how many post kos brigands it takesto equal one pre kos brigand in keeping the dps up?I like my AR apart from being useful in raids it's fun doing a /dance when all the rest are zone stunned <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />There again me guild appreciate that i can move and can keep on a mob and stripping divine self-buffs (heal) it may haveand doing dispatch etc... and not once has using that ability gained me aggro and before you ask, yes I have been to all the t6 raid zones my guild know about aggro control, thankfully and why a brigand gets it...I'm just not looking forward to having to remind other raid members that AR is a thing of the past and can i pleasehave a heal/ressurect again...<div></div>

[MexStrat]

<div></div><p>As a person that roleplays alot, I try to find distinct aspects of a race or class, that i can capitolize on and build my persona and atributes around.</p><p>When you ask someone about a specific class, they may go on and on about this and that, tell you stories how someone playing that class saved their life or ruined their day.  But you ask that person,  give me one word or one phrase that can sum up that class.  the answers will generally be very similar.  </p><p>Ask someone about monks.  You will probably hear something about FD.</p><p>Ask someone about Coecers. you will probably hear someting about Charm</p><p>Ask someone about Guardians. you will probably hear something about Meatshield(or at least something similar).</p><p>I could go on......but</p><p>Finally you ask someone about Brigands.  You will more than like hear something about avoiding AEs</p><p>Yes, people don't know brigands by their debuffs, their ability to solo, their DPS, their snare, people know brigands by their ability to avoid AE.</p><p>Now brigands have only had this ability for a few months compared to the other classes who have had their defining ability from day one.</p><p>So i see Amazing Reflexes as a class defining ability,  and to tamper with it with such extreme predjudice, seems a bit oversighted.</p>

[Eadin Weep]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I'd just love to see a Dev post on this - curious of the reasoning and logic behind this.And to note:  The assassins that cried about AR were largely the ignorant/naive ones who don't realize a bulk of their DPS is due to the debuffs.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Eadin Weeple on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:24 AM</span></p>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Eris wrote:<div></div><p>Please Chix, as it stands on DH site, you didnt take on any T6 raids but LJ. In T6 raids, debuffing is a must so yes even our lowly def/parry/agi/str/attk speed debuff are important. Especially in the first few sec of the fight or more against multiple mobs fight when the raid debuffers are spread around. In that matter, AR is a must. You lack the raiding background to comment on usefunlness of the whole range of brig debuffs in T6 and soon to come T7 raids.</p><hr></blockquote>Yes, I've stated all along that I havent seen much of the T6 raid content. So I've read what everybody who does raid T6 regularly say on these boards, and here is what I've got so far:The AE's you encounter means INSTAKILL, NO MATTER WHAT resist gear you wear or how your groups are setup, which means we CANT POSSIBLY debuff, and are now USELESS as a raid class. Did I get it right? Pardon me for being just a wee bit skeptic to what I read here!But by all means, if someone can confirm these two things then I will have to back off:1. A significant amount of the T6 raid content DOES have AE's that will kill you in one shot, even with capped resists...2. ...and during these fights, the AE's come in such short intervals that you CAN NOT possibly joust in and out to keep Dispatch, Murderous Rake, Debilitate and Revoke on the mob, possibly even Despairing Thrust and/or Wrangle. This means you need about 3-7 seconds in melee range twice a minute. It cant be done? No?Why not Shrouded Blade you ask? Well, with other classes debuffing attack speed too and the cap beeing so easily reached, the returns of it will be diminishing (or more likely non-existant) in a full raid. I even have some numbers to back it up:AFAIK, the cap for debuffing any attribute is 50%. Master 1 Shrouded Blade debuffs 25% attack speed, thats halfway to the cap. So far so good!Now lets take a look at shamans, of which any raid will surely have at least one present. With Adept 3 spells and a T6 doll, defilers can debuff 60-68% attack speed, and mystics 50-58%. Dirges and berserkers can debuff 20% and 10% respectively (again at adept 3). Further, Mystic + Dirge with Master 1 debuffs = permanent 50% <b>AE</b> attack speed debuff. Add also the enemy master strikes from priests where available, which debuff an additional 16% attack speed. Moreso, all these debuffs (with the exception of the berserker's) can be landed from range!I could do the same math for the Defense/Agility/Strength debuffs we have, I'm pretty sure they will show the same pattern. The debuffs we have that stick out and actually will be needed to reach the cap, are the mitigation ones, and the parry one. 3 of which you only need to reapply once a minute, and one every 36 seconds...</span></div>

[Xebars]

<span><blockquote><hr>I know very well what our debuffs do (and yes I mixed up the brigand and dirge snare, cold vs disease debuff). And I never implied that all damage shields would be dispelable.<div><span>Continual debuffs? As in needing to land debuffs more often than 30-60 second intervals (all our debuffs but Shrouded Blade)? Well if you absolutely insist on always keeping Shrouded Blade on the mob when shamans/warriors/whoever/hex dolls/priest master smites most certainly have debuffed the mobs attack speed way beyond the cap already, yeah then I guess jousting wont cut it.</span></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>Ehe...if you think rake/debil/dispatch are our only debuffs that matter, you most certainly are not raiding the tougher T6 stuff. Priests don't have time to land their debuffs until the fight is stabilized, the mobs hit WAY too hard and fast for them to land a debuff anywhere NEAR the start of the fight. Hex dolls have quite a high resist rate and take a LONG time to cast, unless you're gonna time it PERFECTLY with a tank's pull, they will not be helpfull until the fight is stabilized.Mobs use their initial AoE variably, so tank/other scout cannot be in AoE initially without running a high risk of meat pudding.  So, there go their debuffs as well until the fight is stabilized.What does that leave?ME.Brigand's str, atk speed, and parry debuffs are KEY to getting a fight stabilized.  It's only after these are in and the fight is stabilized that my debuffs that help DPS are even a consideration.If AR is nerfed to hell...well, it's not gonna be pretty.Saries of Halcyon Affinity

[Peersu]

<div>hey, dont forget some harder T6 mobs that have 2-3 different AEs of different melee and magic types that cast at seemingly random intervals.</div>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<div></div><span><blockquote><div><span>But by all means, if someone can confirm these two things then I will have to back off:1. A significant amount of the T6 raid content DOES have AE's that will kill you in one shot, even with capped resists...2. ...and during these fights, the AE's come in such short intervals that you CAN NOT possibly joust in and out to keep Dispatch, Murderous Rake, Debilitate and Revoke on the mob, possibly even Despairing Thrust and/or Wrangle. This means you need about 3-7 seconds in melee range twice a minute. It cant be done? No?</span></div><hr></blockquote>1.)  Yes...   ...they can and will wipe a very nicely geared Brigand in one shot.  Even with capped resists...2.)  And Yes the AE's can come in too short of intervals for jousting.If this goes live, be prepared for a sea of Rangers coming off the Isle of Refuge.Yes, I know there is alredy a sea of them, but you haven't seen nothin' yet...AR made Brigands, viable, not overpowered, but simply viable for raids...  </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by AngryWhiteDog on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:51 AM</span></p>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Xebarsis wrote:<span><blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>What does that leave?ME.Brigand's str, atk speed, and parry debuffs are KEY to getting a fight stabilized.  It's only after these are in and the fight is stabilized that my debuffs that help DPS are even a consideration.If AR is nerfed to hell...well, it's not gonna be pretty.<hr></blockquote>When you put it like that, you might very well be onto the reason for this 'nerf'. If we indeed are THAT necessary to the raid, then we must be WAY overpowered eeh? ;p</span></div>

[Zamla1770]

<div></div><p>Just here to add my support to the cause and vent a bit.</p><p>AR, what in gods name is so uber about it, every caster and ranga can usualy stay out of AOE range, but when a brig can its a call for a nerf???</p><p>In a short while more classes get a kind of AR so its in no way uniqe.</p><p>I fail to understand what brought this on <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>AngryWhiteDog wrote:<div></div><span>1.)  Yes...   ...they can and will wipe a very nicely geared Brigand in one shot.  Even with capped resists...2.)  And Yes the AE's can come in too short of intervals for jousting.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Okey, not too detailed answers, would appreciate a bit more info if possible please:1. What is the resist cap btw, I'm not sure? What was the brigands resist, and how much damage did the AE hit him for? In which enounters does this happen? Looking for a significant amount of encounters here.2. Too short intervals to allow 5 seconds in melee range, so we must be talking about AE's with 15 sec timer max? In which encounters does this occur? Again, looking for a significant amount here.</span></div>

[PritchMR]

<div>the problem with running in and tossing up our 3 huge debuffs then running out is.... im going to pull agor with my spike dammage if my shadow slip is not up and even it is it does not go off in time im dead and all those nice debuffs that i just tossed up are gone.... no more brigand no more debuffs no more ubber ranger and assiaian dps....</div>

[Own]

If they want to take our DPS away, remove the dmg on some spells such as dispatch, deblitate and rake, that will reduce dmg by alot, but still keep the debuff. And removing our AR will reduce our dps to 0

[Magus_Bl]

<div></div><p>You want info, Chix?  Tell ya what... go out and lead a raid of jousting melee classes against a mob like Barakah and let us know how it goes...</p><p> </p>

[Atrocity]

Seriously,  if you're a 60 brigand  who raids and you don't understand why this is a big deal then you're just not raiding much.  That's not meant as an insult, rather a statement that if you've been up against these mobs you would understand.  There's been many posts on this thread already that attempt to explain the reasons but it's one of those things that's easiest understood through experience.  Try it out and see what you think.  If you're not able to, then at least have some faith in those of us who are raiding the high end stuff and know what we're talking about.I've given a bit of thought to how a brigand might still be successful in a raid situation and it's a grim and bleak future for us.  My current thinking is that brigands  might as well raid naked.  That way we can just run in and debuff and when we get killed, /shrug who cares, rez 'em up and send 'em in again.  This will happen so frequently that the only way it will be practical is without gear.  It's not like gear improves our debuffs or like resists will keep us alive  through the blasts so why not follow the path that is being laid for us. Is that the idea SoE?  You just want to see us all naked all the time? Vlademir DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[Goonch]

<div></div><div></div><p>I've raided a ton.  My guild has done everything but prism and pedastal.  First on the server to do PP:R, GoAA all the way through including Adolofo, Terrorantula, etc. etc,  Name it we've done it.  The only people who should be arguing in these threads is raiders because no non raid mob AE is worth crying over having to recast AR.</p><p>That being said heres how I feel about this.  I dont think this is going to be that devastating especially since no one except for a couple of people here have beta raided T7.  In T6 we should only be taking damage if...</p><p>1) We take aggro - You shouldnt be taking aggro regardless.  With this change coming I see a lot more people taking the INT AA line just because of this change.  I probably will. </p><p>2) Damage Shield - This sucks, I am not in beta and I don't know how many epics will have damage shields.  Currently in T6 there are some trash mobs with damage shield at the end of GoAA and I believe the Black Queen can roll with a damage shield.  Other than that I dont recall a single epic named mob with a damage shield.  I am not saying there isnt one, Im just saying if there is I dont remember it.</p><p>3) Memwipe - Sunchild, terror, and Djinns in pp:r.  From my experience if Sunchild memwipes to you you will die, if Terror memwipes to you, you can live through a venemous and he wont recast it before AR is back up, and you dont even need AR in PP:R.</p><p>4) Manastone - Hopefully this will change.  Self inflicting Damage shouldn't count.</p><p>Without raiding T7 I dont really think we can say how horrible this is going to be.  Sure there is a chance it will suck but we really won't know until we get there.  But if you think that this is a big deal with T6 content your sadly mistaken.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p>

[PritchMR]

<div></div><p>the only other one i can think of is the silver dragon and anyother creacher that is based off the SK they have a dammage sheild and from what i know there is no way to dispell it</p>

[Shidonya]

<div></div><p>Ok SOE try this on...Keep AR as until canceled however spells such as Subdue, Gambit, Cheap Shot, Spine Ripper, Vicious Assault, Thuggish Negotiations, Flashy Throw, Deception, Deceitful Blow, Stab, and Double up and whatever non-debuff spell exists are non activateable while AR is up. This way the Brigs who wanna dps can go non-AR and button mash away. Those of us who play a significant role in raiding as a debuffer (as intended) can turn on AR and debuff effectively and not make the DPS hogs over envious. I mean quite honestly if it doesn't debuff somehow I don't use it in a raid, unless the "Burn him down" call has been made in which case I'd have to cancel AR to dps the mob to death.</p><p>This would be a win win in my opinion after all any Brig not doing their role as a debuffer in a raid is no Brig at all. Only exception of skills I listed could be the 2 that interupt since they could be useful in raid, but the stuns (which are high dmg) and the DOT's just aren't worth much when conserving power for debuffs in a long raid encounter.</p><p>This could make most happy I think I can still stay in on mob and debuff or if I want to be a DPS dork like some other classes who think that's all there is to this game I can cancel AR and be a drone.</p>

[Goonch]

<div>Contested Siyamak hasn't landed on MM yet so I don't about the contested version.  In regards to the Maj'Dul version I think you may be right but I'm pretty sure like most other damage shields it can be dispelled unless its an innate ability she has.  Its been so long since we've killed her I don't remember if you can dispel it or not.</div><div> </div><div>Also my above post sounds like I'm ok with this change.  Really I'm not.  I've been a brigand since day 1 of this game.  We were nerfed for a year and finally had our day in the sun post combat revamp and with the coming of DoF.  However I'm not going to argue the unknown.  Once we get to T7 stuff and we are doing nothing but picking our butts on the sidelines during raids b/c of this change I'm all about 'an uproar' or a lynching.  But in T6 this is not that bad, it really isn't.  Nothing should change for us except for a couple of mobs, and now we will need to be conscious of your aggro, which you should be already.</div>

[Atrocity]

It's not jsut all about damage shields.  Don't forget about the multimob encounters in T6.  I can manage my agro against the named fairly effectively but I do sometimes take hits from his friends before they've been locked down.  Having AR drop in these circumstances will force some changes in tactics.  It will be riskier to engage at the same time as the tank to start with the debuffs.  The first few seconds of a raid will be tougher and some tanks are going to die which will lead to more  raid wipes.  Insurmountable?  I dunno.  Probably depends on the make up of your raid.  Not being able to use a manastone or a vessel will certainly have an impact.  To me AR is mainly helpful in reducing the amount of time I spend positioning myself for my debuffs.  If I have to dodge in and out I think it's going to be tougher to land those debuffs quickly and those first 30 secs or so of the fight are critical.From what I've seen T6 raid content is far from being trivialized.  I'm sure some of the top raiding guilds are cruising through this stuff but I know for a fact that many other raiding guilds are still facing challenges with the current content, even with a brigand in the mix.  Is this about keeping T6 content challenging even when people are 70 with aas?  Does that mean we should expect nerfs to our abilities with every expansion?  I much preferred the approach of DoF, more challenging content, increased levels, and new abilities.  I still don't see how leaving AR the way it has been for the past 6 months or so is unballancing enough to require it to be changed.Urzd the Undying can have a dmg shield (I believe it can be dispelled, but I'm not eager to taunt him)I recall taking damage shield on a few other raids but I don't have notes to name the mobs.Vlademir DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[Goonch]

<div></div><div></div><p>I think its based on the guild and pull tactics in regards to multi mob encounters.  The way we do things I rarely have to worry about multi-mob encounters and i still can pop off all debuffs w/o catching aggro, though that may be different for someone in another guild. </p><p>I also agree I see no issue with leaving things the way they are currently.  I also think we at least deserve an explanation of why this change is happening.</p><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:47 PM</span></p>

[Cerivus2]

<div></div><p>I would like a DEV to post their reasoning behind the change. Take away yet ANOTHER class defining ability. Might as well make us all one of 4: Tank, Caster, Rogue, Healer. Screw the subclass choice and dumb down the Fing game yet again.</p><p>Here is a thought. Give the Brigand a one shot kill that Rangers and [Removed for Content] get that does not have me taking damage to work. NERF the rangers and [Removed for Content] ability to one shot mobs. It's not fair to the Brigand class. Do this in efforts to talk equality.</p><p>As a Raiding Brigand, AR is one of if not the only way we will be able to get into the action. We have limited abilities the way it is. Poor timers, second rate damage, broken abilities, let the list roll on. We are one of if not the most under played class on every server. F- -uc-k it, why have us around at all? Balance and equality is a JOKE, other classes poping in to throw their "HA HA SUCKER" comments into a creative thread is a poor crybaby move that does not support the scout community. Believe this. We are the customer base. If we yell back at them, they will make the change. It's all about $$, not equality in the classes.</p><p>Giving us a spell with a 15 min recast that gives me a gang to hang out with should be classified as a "Fun" spell like "Clobber". Is this a joke? What advantages does this give me in any situation? Jesus, what in the hell are you doing? Who makes these decisions? FIRE THEM! Does anyone on the DEV team even play our class to see how Jacked up we already are? Sometimes it feels like your programmers just get lazy <Dbl Up> and have ZERO Imagination and insight into our class.</p><p>Anyone that had the opportunity to test a Brigand on Beta should have screamed at them.</p><p> </p><p>~Hymenoptera</p><p> </p>

[Rezikai]

<div></div><p>oh,.. just found out Summoners pets are getting the ability to avoid AE as an AA ... thus another ... "THING" not another class played by a person.. a pet of a caster will now get the ability nerfed to us... .......</p><p>pretty much this will mean a raid force will go w/ the debuffing and ranged attack melees.. (no offense to swashies.. maybe a lil to assassins ....lol ) and giving it to a pet that can be recasted... healed w/ little cost except ya know.. mana...</p><p>THIS WAS A HUGE ISSUE... in EQoA when pets basically made most of the melee classes go exctinct from raiding for over 2 yrs...</p><p>would a raiding party even want a brigand that</p><p>1.cannot do much if any Dps from a ranged position</p><p>2.cannot stay directly close to the mob and Dps and Debuff do to the AR change</p><p>3. both of the above can be done by another class....</p><p>its pretty obvious who im setting the bench,..... and thats the crap-tacular briggy.</p>

[Own]

ya i have been testing beta, and quite disappointed i cant keep AR up for longer then 3 seconds it goes by so fast

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>Also take into account, that again we have to learn how to play our chars all over again on raids.  Our role will completly change how we act on raids with this new change.  Some may argue that pre t6 we had to play this way...but im going out on a limb here and saying that raiding t5 even when it was the hardest out, will be nothing like raiding t7. </p><p> </p><p>I dont support the changing of any class so they have to learn to play or raid a different way.  Even tho we know our class and our spells, its going to require us to completly change the way we do things.  With that in mind, I really dont care how valid an arguement you have or what massive t6 mobs youve killed or if you were 1st or not, its wrong, period.</p>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>And what do we have to get this thread to 4000000000 pages before a dev will notice this?  How can you guys at SOE possibly think that you can make a drastic change to any one class and not have 99% of the community in an uproar about it  demanding an explanation?</p><p> </p><p>Or were you guys thinking well just do this, and screw them...if they start screaming, we just will not post a reply?  I believe that the Brigand community (well 99%) of us deserve and are entitled to at least an explantion.</p>

[kyth]

   Don't forget to /feedback it.   i have been, both on beta and live.  Someone mentioned it in a thread on<a target="_blank" href="www.fohguild.org"> www.fohguild.org</a> so i thought i would mention it here also.<div></div>

[some_perso]

<div></div><p>I'm hoping this nerf is somewhat unintentional.  I think what they might have intended is that if we get damaged by a mob directly we lost AR for 30seconds, which I think is fair, if they wanted to make it worthless they would have just gotten rid of it (like our old FD).</p><p>However under the way they have programmed it now it indirectly makes us lose the ability to use Manastone/Vessel/Shards and makes us worthless on anything with a damage shield.  The primary reason this should be changed is because no other class is made virtually worthless on one type of mob (for on a mob with a damage shield, we might as well not even bother casting AR at all).  <u>Why should only Brigands be useless against some  raid mobs?</u>  Are there mobs that are immune to arrows thus making rangers worthless against them?  Are there mobs that just ignore wards when that attack making shamans worthless against them?  Then why are there mobs that have the ability to make the skill which lets us use all of our other skills not work???  Of coarse, thats not the intended affect of a damge shield (to make Brigands useless against them) but under this current nerf thats what it will do.</p>

[Metran]

<div>TBH I don't know what thread to post in, figure I'll go with the longest one.  I am still stunned by the proposed changes to AR.  I raid with my brigand whenever we are able to get the right number of healers to a raid.  Fortunately of late that has been more often than not and has made our job as a raid team a heck of a lot easier.  The ease has a lot to do with AR, and not because of the DPS I've been able to contribute.</div><div> </div><div>In fact, the first thing I look at when we take on a named is not my DPS, but the DPS of the raid as a whole and the mob's DPS on the MT.  My job isn't about getting to 1k+ DPS(not that I've gotten there), but rather to push the limits of the raid's dps as high as we can get it and ultimately make the job easier on heals.  Whether it be the Ranger, Wizard, Necro, Conj, Assassin, Swash who is above me, I don't care if they are at the top on that pull, what I care about is I did my job which in turn allowed them to do theirs.</div><div> </div><div>A lot of people have brought up a lot of issues as to how this will all go away and I won't rehash it. </div><div> </div><div>Understand that AR going the way it stands now, will redefine the brig's utility on the raid.  For those suggesting we joust like the rest need to understand that there are some mobs which are very difficult to joust.  Understand that SOE seems to be fond of multiple AEs on the same mob (some on reliable timers others on not so reliable timers).  We have one ranged CA that can be used every 30 seconds in comparison to the other scout classes we are the least effective ranged scout.  Bring this back to the WoF days, how often was the melee class benched over ranged if you had more than a full 24?</div><div> </div><div>When people state that the brigand will be on the sideline there is a reason, if we can't effectively do our job, there is someone out there who will do more DPS than us or an extra healer to make up for the lack of raid DPS caused by the inability of the brigand to effectively do their job.  </div><div>Debuffs land more effectively because of the brigand's debuffs.  Our debuffs make it easier on the joust, because while other debuffs are expiring the brigand is still in there hitting run through and shrouded blade and ensuring that the debuffs needed for melee DPS are up for when their next window of 25 seconds to pound on the mob comes up.  In essence, this change is a nerf to raid DPS and debuffs and not about a brigand's dps. </div><div> </div><div>If the intended change goes through and the brigand is forced to joust.  Even if they live, the brigand will be forced to debuff offense or defense, but won't have enough time to effectively do both and not gain a boat load of agro in the 20-25 second window.  Either way the balance of heals to tank to DPS will ultimately be upset by this change.   When I am on my inquisitor, mob DPS goes up and fights take a lot longer, taking the brigand out of the raid with this change is not something I can see as desireable by any class.</div>

[Gyilok]

<div></div><div>well this change to AR reminds me to the ultimate messing up of the ruse line with lu 13</div><div>that was one of the brigands class defining skills, it got nerfed to solo playtool, dont even if know if  I have used it in the last 3-4 months, probably not</div><div>now the same is happening to AR, if the mentioned version goes live with all the mobs having unremovable damage shields up(which is also a pretty lame change, maybe even lamer then adding assault to all mobs with lu 13 -not that it hurt me much after lvl 52 hehe)it will go to an unused slot on an unused hotbar and be slowly forgotten (10% less agro yay....)</div><div>then we all just wanna be with shammies giving lotsa hp and having wards up so we can stay on the mob and do whats needed so the slackers can get 12k hits instead of 9k ones and so on</div><div> </div><div>and for shwash, they dont debuff the mit and resists we do, so they never had so much influence on a raid's damage output as a brigand, they got like 2 nice debuffs for making mobs dmg output weaker, so they are more dps oriented then debuff, but weakening mobs output is better handled by dirges shammies and bored hexdoll-maniacs over time, they can recast  almost instantly if they get resists anyway while we always wait full recast time whether we land it or not (except the snare hehe)</div>

[Garoc_the_Dark]

There used to be many things that made a Brigand feel a little different than other classes and thats why I started a Brigand on day one.FD Stealth was kinda neat, even if anoying at time - nerfedEffective Group Stealth recastable on the run - nerfed now everyone just has invis totemsRuse - nerfedAmazing Relexes - soon to be nerfed.Yes I know that we are a "debuffer" , but it was these little thing I really kinda liked.As for the AR nerfed ... it is going to be another disappointment.<div></div>

[NemaLVey]

<div></div><div></div><p>This is just sad really.  8 pages on a Brig board and atleast 3-4 pages on Beta with no reasoning since its conception.</p><p>If it was too powerful, why give it to other classes.</p><p>If it imbalanced the DPS tiers, it surely isnt our fault as a class.  ( Properly outfitted tier 2 DPS can, reach tier 1 DPS as stated by Moorgard )</p><p> </p><p>Really I can't see why the change was made.  The hate was increased on AR long ago, to keep us in check.  If the MT of a raid dies, Brigands were on the top 5 to be killed... not because of DPS alone, but the combination of debuffs and DPS.  We pay the price everytime we raid, we take the same chances as the other 23 people.  How close can we get to aggro without taking aggro.  Paid the price for being the most underplayed class for nearly a year and 1/2.  Paid it with nerfs to skills, loss of skills to other classes.</p><p>I guess I expect too much asking for a simple reason and explanation as to why.</p><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:45 PM</span></p>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Atrocity wrote:Seriously,  if you're a 60 brigand  who raids and you don't understand why this is a big deal then you're just not raiding much.  That's not meant as an insult, rather a statement that if you've been up against these mobs you would understand.  There's been many posts on this thread already that attempt to explain the reasons but it's one of those things that's easiest understood through experience.  Try it out and see what you think.  If you're not able to, then at least have some faith in those of us who are raiding the high end stuff and know what we're talking about.I've given a bit of thought to how a brigand might still be successful in a raid situation and it's a grim and bleak future for us.  My current thinking is that brigands  might as well raid naked.  That way we can just run in and debuff and when we get killed, /shrug who cares, rez 'em up and send 'em in again.  This will happen so frequently that the only way it will be practical is without gear.  It's not like gear improves our debuffs or like resists will keep us alive  through the blasts so why not follow the path that is being laid for us. Is that the idea SoE?  You just want to see us all naked all the time? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, I havent had the possibility to experience much of the T6 raid content at all, and yes, my initial reaction would then be to read what those who do raid T6 have to say. But the way 99% of the people here have chose to argue this matter isnt just representative for me, sorry. Your post makes a further example of that, you suggest that the solution for this change would be to raid naked, and that that was the game developer's reasoning behind this change? Come on!Everytime I try to bring some actual facts and statistics into the discussion they are ingnored, and instead we get more 'SOE hates us, they want to make us useless, why do they hate us so much?'. Sorry, hardcore raider or non-raider, that just doesnt cut it for me when it comes to argumentation.90% of the discussion has been about us not being able to debuff without complete AE immunity - then prove your point please, for all those that hasnt had the chance to see it, and furthermore for any SoE represenatative that is assigned to read through these boards for feedback I guess. Sorry, but no matter how much of a 'uproar' a proposed change will cause, its not gonna get rolled back because of sheer emotional response. If that was the case then bruisers/berserkers would still be doing 200% more DPS than anyone else, because you can be pretty sure people didnt like those changes either.So please, prove how the way swashbucklers for instance can debuff isnt viable for us, or how our debuffs are so much more important than theirs. Prove how a significant amount of raid encounters effectively make it impossible for us to get in melee range to debuff, if so just for a limited time, at various intervals. Yes, this might mean you're not able to debuff to your full capacity at all times, big deal! Working with limited possibilities and at times actually dieing is a part of the game you know... I for one appreciate a good challenge, not just a challenge for the raidforce as a whole, but a challenge for me personally in order to get my job done.</span></div>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Atrocity wrote:Seriously,  if you're a 60 brigand  who raids and you don't understand why this is a big deal then you're just not raiding much.  That's not meant as an insult, rather a statement that if you've been up against these mobs you would understand.  There's been many posts on this thread already that attempt to explain the reasons but it's one of those things that's easiest understood through experience.  Try it out and see what you think.  If you're not able to, then at least have some faith in those of us who are raiding the high end stuff and know what we're talking about.I've given a bit of thought to how a brigand might still be successful in a raid situation and it's a grim and bleak future for us.  My current thinking is that brigands  might as well raid naked.  That way we can just run in and debuff and when we get killed, /shrug who cares, rez 'em up and send 'em in again.  This will happen so frequently that the only way it will be practical is without gear.  It's not like gear improves our debuffs or like resists will keep us alive  through the blasts so why not follow the path that is being laid for us. Is that the idea SoE?  You just want to see us all naked all the time? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, I havent had the possibility to experience much of the T6 raid content at all, and yes, my initial reaction would then be to read what those who do raid T6 have to say. But the way 99% of the people here have chose to argue this matter isnt just representative for me, sorry. Your post makes a further example of that, you suggest that the solution for this change would be to raid naked, and that that was the game developer's reasoning behind this change? Come on!Everytime I try to bring some actual facts and statistics into the discussion they are ingnored, and instead we get more 'SOE hates us, they want to make us useless, why do they hate us so much?'. Sorry, hardcore raider or non-raider, that just doesnt cut it for me when it comes to argumentation.90% of the discussion has been about us not being able to debuff without complete AE immunity - then prove your point please, for all those that hasnt had the chance to see it, and furthermore for any SoE represenatative that is assigned to read through these boards for feedback I guess. Sorry, but no matter how much of a 'uproar' a proposed change will cause, its not gonna get rolled back because of sheer emotional response. If that was the case then bruisers/berserkers would still be doing 200% more DPS than anyone else, because you can be pretty sure people didnt like those changes either.So please, prove how the way swashbucklers for instance can debuff isnt viable for us, or how our debuffs are so much more important than theirs. Prove how a significant amount of raid encounters effectively make it impossible for us to get in melee range to debuff, if so just for a limited time, at various intervals. Yes, this might mean you're not able to debuff to your full capacity at all times, big deal! Working with limited possibilities and at times actually dieing is a part of the game you know... I for one appreciate a good challenge, not just a challenge for the raidforce as a whole, but a challenge for me personally in order to get my job done.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Your whole post proved me your lack of knowledge in raiding, heck you even said urself you dont know that much. We debuff restances by ALOT more then swashbucklers 1.5k+ in some, Dispatch, 3.5k to all resistanecs. IF we are dead, = no debuffs on mobs. And with no warning when the AR is off or takin off how will we know. I wish i had 500 eyes to see and know everything that is going on. Great, Ya we know it wont be rolled back. But we are trying to get it more suitable to be more reasonable for us. You can tell it was truely thought out as manastone breaks it...

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Your whole post proved me your lack of knowledge in raiding, heck you even said urself you dont know that much. We debuff restances by ALOT more then swashbucklers 1.5k+ in some, Dispatch, 3.5k to all resistanecs. IF we are dead, = no debuffs on mobs. And with no warning when the AR is off or takin off how will we know. I wish i had 500 eyes to see and know everything that is going on. Great, Ya we know it wont be rolled back. But we are trying to get it more suitable to be more reasonable for us. You can tell it was truely thought out as manastone breaks it...<hr></blockquote>That we debuff more mitigation than swashbucklers is no news to me. Our mitgation debuffs are also all on 60 sec timers, which means you need 3 seconds in melee range once a minute to keep them active. Swashbucklers can debuff about 1k physical mitigation, and their debuffs for that have much shorter durations, 20 and 30 seconds respectively. Add to that a 'mirror' debuff for every debuff that we have, most notably Lung Puncture which debuffs 50+ on each of the mobs offensive techniques (melee as well as magic). Do you hear swashies crying that they are USELESS because they cant avoid AE? No you see them time, joust, use resist gear, and make the best of the challenge that is presented to them. Brigans however, proclaim themselves useless when they are presented with the same scenario. Just shows how overhyped the importance of AR has become, as people have grown accustomed to only having their aggro output to pay attention to.How about this, a suggested way to land our most important debuffs (the debuffs that a raid NEEDS in order to reach the cap):0 seconds passed - AE just hit, you are outside AE range. You start running towards the mob to get in melee range, and while you run you cast elude (optional).4 seconds passed - you are now in melee range and cast wrangle or despairing thrust, to help land your debuffs (optional)5 seconds passed - you cast dispatch6 seconds passed - you cast debilitate7 seconds passed - you cast murderous rake8 seconds passed - you cast double up and start moving our of AE range12 seconds passed - you are outside AE rangeHere I left our parry debuff, which can be added without much time penalty, or even landed on separate jousts.By doing just that (and only that) once a minute you will have contributed huge amounts of DPS to the raid, and most certainly justified your spot in it. It doesnt mean however that your contribution stops there, there will surely be more windows for jousting, and while you are outside AE range you can make yourself useful with our ranged CA, T6 ammo, and even our snare/taunt for debuff/dispel. Again, just requires some attention, and a will to contribute even if your conditions arent 100% perfect and you do run the risk of dieing at times.However, if someone can present a list of a singificant amount of encounters where the AE's come in shorter intervals than about 12 seconds (and indeed means instakill even with capped resists), I will gladly join you in your cause. I'm just not seeing any such info so far, despite asking for it several times and being in the company of so many people claiming to know so much about raiding.</span></div>

[Gyilok]

<div>well this shows pretty much u got no real idea what t6 raiding is about, and you dont use your debuffs wisely</div><div> </div><div>first of all, using debilitate and murderous rake after dispatch is a fully wasting 10 secs of their duration, since mob is debuffed way over the cap with dispatch</div><div> </div><div>2nd, if your using dispatch-debi-murd rake-double up, it almost works like rescue of tanks especially if you can get it done in perfect timing and all 3 gonna get double upped hehe, unless you had extreme luck on befuddle adversaries procs, your gonna get agro and you die on any orange con mob, and can die to yellow ones too if your unlucky enough to get hit with some nasty stun keeping you from using shadow slip, and get hit multiple times (yellows should not kill any raiding brig in one hit, but will do it in 2 or 3), well not on lockjaw ofcourse, there you can tank the whole figt after, just dont forget to cancel befuddle hehe</div><div> </div><div>the direction they want to take with AR will hurt us a lot, but hey we gonna get pets! (Imo the mushroom is more then enough for a brigands pet skill line) .....</div>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Gyilok wrote:<div>well this shows pretty much u got no real idea what t6 raiding is about, and you dont use your debuffs wisely</div><div> </div><div>first of all, using debilitate and murderous rake after dispatch is a fully wasting 10 secs of their duration, since mob is debuffed way over the cap with dispatch</div><div> </div><div>2nd, if your using dispatch-debi-murd rake-double up, it almost works like rescue of tanks especially if you can get it done in perfect timing and all 3 gonna get double upped hehe, unless you had extreme luck on befuddle adversaries procs, your gonna get agro and you die on any orange con mob, and can die to yellow ones too if your unlucky enough to get hit with some nasty stun keeping you from using shadow slip, and get hit multiple times (yellows should not kill any raiding brig in one hit, but will do it in 2 or 3), well not on lockjaw ofcourse, there you can tank the whole figt after, just dont forget to cancel befuddle hehe</div><div> </div><div>the direction they want to take with AR will hurt us a lot, but hey we gonna get pets! (Imo the mushroom is more then enough for a brigands pet skill line) .....</div><hr></blockquote>1. Debilitate and Murderous Rake both have 72 second duration and 60 seconds recast, aka they can be kept up permanently. How could you then possibly 'waste' any of their durations?2. Dispatch (Master 1) does not reach the debuff cap on even a 46^ Shade Prowler, let alone debuff 'way over the cap' on higher level mobs.3. Dispatch, Debilitate and Murderous Rake all have 0.5s cast time and 0.5s recovery time. Double up repeats our 2 last seconds of combat attacks. No matter how 'perfect' timing you have, only the latest 2 can possibly be doubled up.4. I have done Dispatch - Debilitate - Murderous Rake - Double up in rapid succesion plenty times without getting aggro, and if you furthermore have spent (at least) the last 10 seconds out of AE range not doing much, this will not be hard to pull off. Yes I have Master 1 CA's too...</span></div>

[Gyilok]

<div></div><p>since their duration is 72 secs you dont have to recast them when they are up, or your using power ineffectively</p><p>the debuff cap is somewhere in the 2500-3000 range, you wont see hits go higher after that amount so dispatch m1 with 3500 is way over that</p><p>I have had 3 ca-s double upped multiple times (usually shrouded blade is the one I use before debi and murd so those 3 tend to land in time together) so maybe double up takes the 2 secs from where you start casing it, not when the cast has happened, and then an attack executed exactly 2 sec before can be included, however this is unlikely to happen in sc when 2-3 other guilds are farming there too</p><p>i didnt say the combo is guaranteed agro, nor is rescue which I mentioned in comparison, but if you would fight orange mobs and tanks struggle with resisted taunts while you land your stuff early into the fight (unless u like to slack in the back), then you can find yourself tanking it any moment, but what am I talking about, you got no idea about stuff like that</p><p>back to topic, jousting isnt for brigands anyway, if AR gets destroyed, give us some nice sta or hp buff so we can still go for maxing hp and try to have a good healer in group</p>

[Own]

<blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Gyilok wrote:<div>well this shows pretty much u got no real idea what t6 raiding is about, and you dont use your debuffs wisely</div><div> </div><div>first of all, using debilitate and murderous rake after dispatch is a fully wasting 10 secs of their duration, since mob is debuffed way over the cap with dispatch</div><div> </div><div>2nd, if your using dispatch-debi-murd rake-double up, it almost works like rescue of tanks especially if you can get it done in perfect timing and all 3 gonna get double upped hehe, unless you had extreme luck on befuddle adversaries procs, your gonna get agro and you die on any orange con mob, and can die to yellow ones too if your unlucky enough to get hit with some nasty stun keeping you from using shadow slip, and get hit multiple times (yellows should not kill any raiding brig in one hit, but will do it in 2 or 3), well not on lockjaw ofcourse, there you can tank the whole figt after, just dont forget to cancel befuddle hehe</div><div> </div><div>the direction they want to take with AR will hurt us a lot, but hey we gonna get pets! (Imo the mushroom is more then enough for a brigands pet skill line) .....</div><hr></blockquote>1. Debilitate and Murderous Rake both have 72 second duration and 60 seconds recast, aka they can be kept up permanently. How could you then possibly 'waste' any of their durations?2. Dispatch (Master 1) does not reach the debuff cap on even a 46^ Shade Prowler, let alone debuff 'way over the cap' on higher level mobs.3. Dispatch, Debilitate and Murderous Rake all have 0.5s cast time and 0.5s recovery time. Double up repeats our 2 last seconds of combat attacks. No matter how 'perfect' timing you have, only the latest 2 can possibly be doubled up.4. I have done Dispatch - Debilitate - Murderous Rake - Double up in rapid succesion plenty times without getting aggro, and if you furthermore have spent (at least) the last 10 seconds out of AE range not doing much, this will not be hard to pull off. Yes I have Master 1 CA's too...</span></div><hr></blockquote>LOL ur making laugh to hard. Dispatch doesnt debuff a lvl 46 solo con to its max? Have you even tested this yourself? You HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS HAPPINING. Most of the stuff people are talking bout in here they are experiancing the problem themselves. The combos you use, are pointless as stiz already mentioned. Plus brigands are more then just 3 attacks, 3 spells dont cut it, i want to be 100% in a raid not 14%.

[verydanger]

<div><span><span><blockquote><hr>Gyilok wrote:<div></div><p>since their duration is 72 secs you dont have to recast them when they are up, or your using power ineffectively</p><hr></blockquote></span>Yes, but how is doing Dispatch - Debilitate - Murd Rake right after eachother a waste? If Deb and Rake are gonna be on the mob continually (be it refreshed every 60 sec or 72) and Dispatch used as often as possible (every 60 sec), there will be 13 seconds every minute that all 3 debuffs are on the mob anyways. If you're never gonna use all three simultaniously in order to use your power 'effectively', it means you would have to use Dispatch every 85 (72+13) seconds instead of 60 - doesnt seem too effective to me.<span><blockquote><hr>the debuff cap is somewhere in the 2500-3000 range, you wont see hits go higher after that amount so dispatch m1 with 3500 is way over that<hr></blockquote>Not true. This is easily tested by observing your poisons hits (as they do a fixed amount of damage as oppose to CA's or autoattack). I even tested this today just to make sure nothing has changed lately:Against some 'unliving troopers' in SS, level 52^^. With the INT I had my poison was listed as doing 444dmg on initial proc.With just Murderous Rake M1 (debuff poison by 1536), the poison hit for 491.With just Dispatch M1 (debuff poison by 3520), the poison hit for 641.With Dispatch + Murderous Rake, the poison hit for 666. Exactly 50% damage increase, the cap was reached.As such, we can conclude the cap for this mob is slightly above 3500, and not 2500-3000 at all. Higher level mobs slowly raise the cap too.<span><blockquote><hr>I have had 3 ca-s double upped multiple times (usually shrouded blade is the one I use before debi and murd so those 3 tend to land in time together) so maybe double up takes the 2 secs from where you start casing it, not when the cast has happened, and then an attack executed exactly 2 sec before can be included, however this is unlikely to happen in sc when 2-3 other guilds are farming there too<hr></blockquote>Double Up is insta-cast, so you never 'start casting it'. And in a perfect lag-free enviroment, your last 3 seconds will look like this: CAST1 RECOVERY1 CAST2 RECOVERY2 CAST3 RECOVERY3, all of which last 0.5 seconds (with the exception of certain CA's). Even if Double Up would include the thing that happened exactly 2 seconds ago, that thing would be RECOVERY1, not CAST1. You would need >2.5 seconds to include the first CA. And no, I have never had 3 CA's doubled up, and I play in a very lag optimized environment, and queueing up 3 CA's in immediate succesion isnt too hard.<span><blockquote><hr>i didnt say the combo is guaranteed agro, nor is rescue which I mentioned in comparison, but if you would fight orange mobs and tanks struggle with resisted taunts while you land your stuff early into the fight (unless u like to slack in the back), then you can find yourself tanking it any moment, but what am I talking about, you got no idea about stuff like that<hr></blockquote>Yeah keep knocking my game knowledge m8, makes for an entertaining combo with the facts about our abilities you keep getting wrong. :pOf course I realise that landing 3 big debuffs and then double up before the tank has had time to establish solid aggro wont work out well. So you will have to wait a while before you land them instead of doing it upon the pull, I'm sure youre familiar with that.</span></span></span></span></div>

[Own]

OK srry Try dispatch first, see what ur poisen proc is then do rake. It wont go up.

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dragonmerc wrote:LOL ur making laugh to hard. Dispatch doesnt debuff a lvl 46 solo con to its max? Have you even tested this yourself? You HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS HAPPINING. Most of the stuff people are talking bout in here they are experiancing the problem themselves. The combos you use, are pointless as stiz already mentioned. Plus brigands are more then just 3 attacks, 3 spells dont cut it, i want to be 100% in a raid not 14%.<hr></blockquote>Sigh... just for you, I'm gonna do this once again.Testing done on 46^ Shade Prowlers in SS (YES, level 46 SOLO mobs. And YES, I am doing the testing personally, so you could safely say that I am EXPERIENCING it myself.)My poison (Adeste's Disruption) lists 444dmg as the initial hit.Without any debuffs on the prowlers, it hits for just that, 444.With Dispatch Master 1 the poison hits for 650.With Dispatch Master 1 + Murderous Rake Master 1, the poison hits for 666. Thats a 50% dmg increase, which means the cap is reached.As you can see, Dispatch did NOT reach the cap.Now, lets review the part I said that you disagreed with strongly enough to state that I 'have no idea what is happening':<i>"Dispatch (Master 1) does not reach the debuff cap on even a 46^ Shade Prowler, let alone debuff 'way over the cap' on higher level mobs"</i>Still laughing as hard? Jeebus, you're making it SO easy for me to prove my points.</span></div>

[Own]

And plz tell me things after you have raided, after you have witnesed this stuff you claim to know everything about even thought you have not even been in the real action. You sir do now know what you are talking about.

[Own]

OK i just tested your theory on a lvl 56^^(guardian stalker) con in SC on 5 mobs total of 22 procsIntial dmg on Caress of the void, 222 dmgWith Rake,... 238 dmgwith Dispatch 238 dmgOMG it didnt change? the cap is pretty low u newb as i said, go test out he real raid mobs urself and come back when you haveEDIT looked at wrong proc for not debuffed.<p>Message Edited by Dragonmerc on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:55 AM</span></p>

[Own]

OK testing your shade prowler theory too, ok inital proc was 222Dispatch alone... 324Rake...249Rake +dispatch ...329Almost the same dmg? IDK can you get lucky procs? IDK seems its happens. Did You DU after? because it raises it.NowTest this on CAs, do u see a difference? do u? no if not by any. This goes the same for raid mobs fully debuffed too. The same proc dmg. the same CA dmg. Because if every bard,sk,brigand,assasin, everybdoy who can debuff migation, my subdue would be hitting for 5k dmg every time its casted. but it doesnt because the cap is already hit.

[Own]

Oya, i love how you like to test grey mobs also its just the same as lvl 67+

[ganjookie]

I wanted to say I dont like this change either...<div></div>

[MexStrat]

<div></div><p>Being this is the longest thread on this issue,  Just curious,  Have we yet heard any response from designers or developers on the subject?</p><p> </p><p>I was so hoping to hear from someone, before they all went home for the weekend.</p>

[some_perso]

<div></div><div>Hmm well I wanted to post my rebuttle to verydanger last night but for some reason I couldn't log in (Compericy! =p)</div><div> </div><div>First I'd like to say that I'm not against the nerf purely because it'd keep us from debuffing well.  I believe it's just unbalancing to make the game work so that some mobs make our primary class defining skill (on which the usefulness of our class is based, for we are much less useful in the back chucking knives) worthless.  You must agree that on a mob with a damage shield we almost might as well not use AR at all if it drops with any melee hit we land.</div><div> </div><div>Now do any other classes face this?  Are there mobs that hit through wards and make shamans half-useless?  Are there mobs that are immune to ranged attacks making rangers have to do bad melee dmg?  Recently they have gotten rid of immunties too.  Last time my guild fought Magrick the Destroyer in Gates my assassin told me he pulled off a autoattack bow shot for 1200dmg and thats on a mob that was immune to peircing pre LU19 (yes he was useing peircing arrows and it was probably due to the raids ac debuffage).  So now Mages don't face the prospect of mobs that are immune to half there spells.  However now Brigands must worry about mobs that make our AE dodging useless.</div><div> </div><div>Now your arguement verydanger is why can't us Brigands just do what Swashies have always done then?  Well first of all I think it is unbalancing to make us play like Swashbucklers when we were each givin a move tailored for AoEs but ours gets made useless and theres is unchanged.  Instead of recieving AR, Swashbucklers get a move called Hail of Steel aITEM -557232494 -131573814:Hail of Steel (Adept III)/a which you can see is comparable in dmg to Rangers Stream of Arrows ability aITEM 2080627540 -858282689:Stream of Arrows (Adept III)/a.  I would not be suprized this is where those reports of Swashies out dpsing brigs comes from.  Swashies are given the ability to do decent ranged dps because they have to jouste, and were suppose to have AR as our ability to deal with AoEs on raids.  Take away AR and you make us a swashie that doesn't have one of the best swashie combat arts.  I think that is unbalancing especially considering reports that Swashies out dps us currently which makes the current system balanced.  We dodge AoEs but have to keep our dmg down to prevent agro, Swashies get good ranged attack for in between jousts and thus the ability to be better dmg since they can't be as good at debuffing.</div><div> </div><div>Now also, the reason jousting would be so devestating to us is because so many of our debuffs our short duration/ short recast.  Murd Rake and Debilitate are the only exceptions.  Now I lead raids and call out when to move in and out for joustes (since I'm at a good position to do so dodging AoEs and all).  Believe you me, when your fighting this guy <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2.raidmobs.com/mobs_detailed.php?mob_id=111">http://www.eq2.raidmobs.com/mobs_detailed.php?mob_id=111</a> your gonna have a hard time telling when to have all your people run in and out.  Keeping track of AoEs is not a perfect thing and thats why SoE has given every class but brigands something to fall back on when they can't melee (whether it be the ability to dmg at range or the ability to tank and/or buff).  Any mob with multiple AoEs can use both of them within 8-10 seconds of each other, now on mobs with only 2 AoEs its not as often as one with 3 or 4 but its still possible and thus I'm not gonna give my meleers a 13 second dmg window (epsecially since it takes at least one sec to run in and another to run out) when it could wipe the raid.  Now you are right that Revoke, Wrangle. Debilitate, Rake, Run Through and Despairing Thrust could be cast in 6 seconds theoretically, but add 2-4 seconds to get in and out, then yur already getting to the danger zone, add in any extra time for human error your really in trouble.</div><div>Also the only reason we tell people to get resist gear is not so that we can just not joust and take a hit and have healers get our hp up b4 the next one hits.  Its just so if something screws up and you are hit by an AoE your not dead but in the red so u can hang out at range until a healer or paladin can give u a hand.  In a raid you want 6-8 healers depending on there lvls and you want everyone of them worrying about the tank.  I even tell mine to only rez other healers and the MT/MA, and to leave combat rezzing of dps to the paladins and necros.  Only on the weakest of raid mobs is taking the AE instead of jousting your melee dps a more viable option.</div><div> </div><div>"<span>0 seconds passed - AE just hit, you are outside AE range. You start running towards the mob to get in melee range, and while you run you cast elude (optional).4 seconds passed - you are now in melee range and cast wrangle or despairing thrust, to help land your debuffs (optional)5 seconds passed - you cast dispatch6 seconds passed - you cast debilitate7 seconds passed - you cast murderous rake8 seconds passed - you cast double up and start moving our of AE range12 seconds passed - you are outside AE range"</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>This strategy sounds good on paper but as others have pointed out, the Double Up on our 2 highest hits could risk pulling agro.  I know could isn't would but you never want to do something that could pull agro.  Also as others have pointed out this goes back to the balance issue, why should out debuffage be lowered to only being able to keep our 2 long duration debuffs up and have the worse scout ranged dps?  We wouldn't be as good as swashies we'd be much worse for the reasons I stated above.  This is my main point; without AR Brigands are virtually useless, we'll have 2 debuffs we could keep up all time and dps equal to that of a fighter at range.  Since Brigands would be the only class facing being made this useless on some mobs and the only class with virtually nothing to fall back on when they can't melee, the nerf would be unbalancing.</span></div>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dragonmerc wrote:OK testing your shade prowler theory too, ok inital proc was 222Dispatch alone... 324Rake...249Rake +dispatch ...329Almost the same dmg? IDK can you get lucky procs? IDK seems its happens. Did You DU after? because it raises it.NowTest this on CAs, do u see a difference? do u? no if not by any. This goes the same for raid mobs fully debuffed too. The same proc dmg. the same CA dmg. Because if every bard,sk,brigand,assasin, everybdoy who can debuff migation, my subdue would be hitting for 5k dmg every time its casted. but it doesnt because the cap is already hit.<hr></blockquote>Ok, I'm gonna discard your first test results (the previos post), as they hardly look valid.Your test on the prowlers however, shows the exact same thing as my tests did. Dispatch comes very close to the cap, but DOES NOT reach it. That was what I said all along, and now we both have proven it. 'Lucky procs' have nothing to do with it, the poison hits for fixed values. And yes I am aware that DU repeats most CA's at higher values...As for the last part, I'm not sure what you are trying to say?All types of damage, be it through spells/CA's, autoattack/ranged attack, poison, item procs etc, can be raised by debuffing mitigation. The ability to debuff these mitigations caps out when a 50% damage increase is reached. So, the difference between a mob (raid, group or solo) that is fully debuffed and one that isnt debuffed at all, is this 50% increase to all damage dealt to it. This is why your subdue wont hit for 5k. The max hit for Subdue is about 1400, so with a 50% increase you'll see 2100 at best (higher than that if you use double up on it, or chose it as M2). I dont know if that answers your question though, please rephrase it in that case.Also, I test on a lot of other mobs than grey solo ones, but testing on raid mobs isnt really an option as I would need about 23 people acting on specific orders designed not to mess with the test results. Bless my guildmates, but they arent _THAT_ helpful. So what I can do is test on solo and heroic mobs, everything from grey to orange, and as they all follow the same pattern I can only assume raid mobs will do the same. You who do raid regularly are of course free to test this and prove that raid mobs is a whole new ballgame when it comes to the basic game mechanics.And yes, this has gotten terribly off topic and I apologize for that.</span></div>

[Devine1]

<div></div><div>I was reading about the changes to the class and it seems ridiculous to me. I saw some posts on testing feedback but nothing in Developers Roundtable , some testers go post something there and get this issue attention everywhere possible :smileywink:</div>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Your whole post proved me your lack of knowledge in raiding, heck you even said urself you dont know that much. We debuff restances by ALOT more then swashbucklers 1.5k+ in some, Dispatch, 3.5k to all resistanecs. IF we are dead, = no debuffs on mobs. And with no warning when the AR is off or takin off how will we know. I wish i had 500 eyes to see and know everything that is going on. Great, Ya we know it wont be rolled back. But we are trying to get it more suitable to be more reasonable for us. You can tell it was truely thought out as manastone breaks it...<hr></blockquote>That we debuff more mitigation than swashbucklers is no news to me. Our mitgation debuffs are also all on 60 sec timers, which means you need 3 seconds in melee range once a minute to keep them active. Swashbucklers can debuff about 1k physical mitigation, and their debuffs for that have much shorter durations, 20 and 30 seconds respectively. Add to that a 'mirror' debuff for every debuff that we have, most notably Lung Puncture which debuffs 50+ on each of the mobs offensive techniques (melee as well as magic). Do you hear swashies crying that they are USELESS because they cant avoid AE? No you see them time, joust, use resist gear, and make the best of the challenge that is presented to them. Brigans however, proclaim themselves useless when they are presented with the same scenario. Just shows how overhyped the importance of AR has become, as people have grown accustomed to only having their aggro output to pay attention to.How about this, a suggested way to land our most important debuffs (the debuffs that a raid NEEDS in order to reach the cap):0 seconds passed - AE just hit, you are outside AE range. You start running towards the mob to get in melee range, and while you run you cast elude (optional).4 seconds passed - you are now in melee range and cast wrangle or despairing thrust, to help land your debuffs (optional)5 seconds passed - you cast dispatch6 seconds passed - you cast debilitate7 seconds passed - you cast murderous rake8 seconds passed - you cast double up and start moving our of AE range12 seconds passed - you are outside AE rangeHere I left our parry debuff, which can be added without much time penalty, or even landed on separate jousts.By doing just that (and only that) once a minute you will have contributed huge amounts of DPS to the raid, and most certainly justified your spot in it. It doesnt mean however that your contribution stops there, there will surely be more windows for jousting, and while you are outside AE range you can make yourself useful with our ranged CA, T6 ammo, and even our snare/taunt for debuff/dispel. Again, just requires some attention, and a will to contribute even if your conditions arent 100% perfect and you do run the risk of dieing at times.However, if someone can present a list of a singificant amount of encounters where the AE's come in shorter intervals than about 12 seconds (and indeed means instakill even with capped resists), I will gladly join you in your cause. I'm just not seeing any such info so far, despite asking for it several times and being in the company of so many people claiming to know so much about raiding.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Stop me, im on the floor, im dying over here, im gonna blow a rib.   Dude, I got master one of all the spells u listed...to hit all 3 of those spells and hit double up, im moosh.  You have the entire brigand community against you, or so it seems.  Youll never win this war, so just go away and let the real t6...soon to be t7 brigands work twards saving an ability we need. No raiding LJ doesnt count.  We took 3 grps to LJ and dropped him in like 45 secs - 1 min...Let us know when u get deeper into gates and start taking on some of the harder PPR and CoAA mobs ok?

[verydanger]

In reply to some_person6's post, I wont quote it since its a very long post. :pYes, I completely agree that mobs with undispelable damage shields makes the new AR useless (against those mobs), and that manastone etc canceling it doesnt seem too thought out.What I however DONT agree with is AR being our 'class defining skill', and that without it we cant make use of our abilities (or in brigand forum terminology, we would be USELESS). Swashies prove every day that you can apply rogue debuffs without complete AE immunity. And all you hear in response to that is our debuffs are so much more important than the swashbuckler ones. And I just dont see that. How about debuffing 144 INT / 50 disruption and having 30% chance to interrupt (with massive haste) for reducing spell damage dealt to the raid? Or debuffing 25% DPS and 50 crush/slash/pierce? Or 1k physical mitigation, on shorter recast timers than our debuffs which means they will stick better on multiple mobs as they go down one by one? The same parry / defense debuffs we have? WIS and AGI debuffs?If swashies had an AE avoidance skill also and we both were getting it taken away, I would be more intrested in arguing for keeping it. A permanent 'Now I just click this icon and then I never have to pay attention to AE's again' ability would not be something I would cry bloody murder over losing though, I cant believe no one else sees how that trivializes things? No, it is not something we NEED in order to make ourselves useful, its just a luxury we have gotten used to. Im not saying we'll be just as effective without AR, I am saying that with some effort and depending on encounter and also PLAYING SKILLS, we could be everything from just as effective to less effective (BUT STILL VERY USEFUL).I do not feel that Hail of steel makes up for the advantage we get from AR in its current form. How many of you have the last  6 months wanted to trade AR for HoS? I guess no one.I do also not feel that our debuffs are that short duration / short recast at all. Our 3 most important ones (Dispatch, Debilitate and Rake - the ones a raid most likely will have biggest need of in order to reach the caps), need only be applied  once a minute. Other than that, we have a slew of debuffs with 30-36sec durations, you will just need to find 2 joust windows every minute to keep these active at all times. Lastly we have Shrouded Blade (10 sec) and Run Through (20 sec), which most likely will be harder to keep up at all times. But you cant expect to be able to do everything perfectly all the time, and as I tried to prove in a previous post in this thread, these attributes will quite likely be debuffed beyond the cap already.In fact, if we are gonna talk about short recasts / durations for debuffs, then swashies got it worse. Unlike our 60sec recast mit debuffs, theirs have 20 and 30 sec durations respectively. Their equivalent to Dispatch (Lung Puncture) has a 30 sec recast/duration, as oppose to the 60 seconds for Dispatch. With the brigand communitys own argumentation, maybe swashies should be the ones who got AR instead?As for my proposed timetable for a Dispatch/Rake/Debilitate/Double up joust, yes that is a huge aggro buildup. But doing Rake/Debi/Double up is something that you will want to do even if you arent jousting no? At least while jousting you'll have the advantage of lower initial hate position (as you will have spent the last 10+ seconds outside melee range), not to mention not having the 10% increased hate gain from AR.I also counted for 4 + 4 seconds for getting in/out of range, surely you can do that in 3 seconds, which just saved you time to throw in a Shadow Slip. At least my experience is that Shadow slip + Elude allows us to pull off whatever the next few seconds without getting aggro, with the possible exception of doubling up our taunt or something like that.<div></div>

[verydanger]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div>Stop me, im on the floor, im dying over here, im gonna blow a rib.   Dude, I got master one of all the spells u listed...to hit all 3 of those spells and hit double up, im moosh.  You have the entire brigand community against you, or so it seems.  Youll never win this war, so just go away and let the real t6...soon to be t7 brigands work twards saving an ability we need. No raiding LJ doesnt count.  We took 3 grps to LJ and dropped him in like 45 secs - 1 min...Let us know when u get deeper into gates and start taking on some of the harder PPR and CoAA mobs ok?<hr></blockquote>Dude. I present to you 2 Different Scenarios:1. You have AR active, and have spent the last 10 seconds - 3 minutes 'doing your thing' on the mob (debuffing, DPS'ing, interrupting, dispeling, procing god knows what). You are also under the effect of 10% increased hate gain from RA, and you might not have Shadowslip and Elude up ready to use.2. You do not have AR active, and have spent the last 10+ seconds outside melee range not doing much to aggravate the mob. You do not have the increased hate from AR, and you will have made sure to have shadow slip and elude up ready to cast.See the difference there?And for the record, I got my Master spells too (as just about every half serious brig by now), can you believe that? I know, gasp!BTW, I'm still waiting for your reply in this thread:<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=7611#M7611">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=7611#M7611</a></span></div><p>Message Edited by verydanger on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:06 PM</span></p>

[Peersu]

<div></div><div></div><p>you know, chix...  you're the only brigand on the forums thinking like this.  Statistically, you cant be the only "logical" thinker on the brigand forums, yet you're the only one saying stuff like you do.  There is something wrong there.  Brigands were given a self buff ability to make up for other self buff types that we dont get, such as self haste, self dps, str/agi buff, agro transfer, etc...  Stuff that would make us more useful scouts, aside from just the debuffs.  Like many have said, we'd like to see what cool new tier 7 self buff skill we get to replace this to make us more on par with other jousting scout classes, but guess what - there is none.</p><p> </p><p>But, if you buy kos, and if you start raiding in tier 7, you'll see why people are complaining about it. outside of raiding, AR is not a helpful skill.</p><p>Message Edited by Peersu on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:43 PM</span></p>

[NemaLVey]

<div></div><p>What I wanna know is... how did we get duped into talking bout Debuffing, when this was about AR?  Very slick you AR haters, lol!</p><p>I know who ya'll are... I am watching you...and when you least expect it...</p><p>/clobber</p><p>/duct tape</p><p>/throw over cliff</p>

[draknfyr]

<div></div><p>This just makes it that much easier to simply "box" a brigand on a raid than bring along a real one. Run it in, hit 2 or 3 CA's run it out. That all can be done one handed while you play a real dps class. This nerf has the potential to relegate brigands to a single purpose, mitigation debuffs. I don't want to be a "one note" character. Right now it takes real skill to keep below the mobs hate radar, its a very delicate dance with death. That's what I like about the class.</p><p>If we have to joust a mob then gone are the days of a "skilled" brigand. There is no chance we will ever pull agro with our ranged abilities... I mean ability. For the most part we wouldn't even have to use detaunts and would still fly well below the mobs hate radar with a good tank.</p><p>You may think this skill is not class defining but in my opinion the current design of a raiding brigand is largely built around it. If its rendered unusable then the brigand class needs to be redesigned to compensate.</p>

[NemaLVey]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>draknfyr wrote:<div></div><p>This just makes it that much easier to simply "box" a brigand on a raid than bring along a real one. Run it in, hit 2 or 3 CA's run it out. That all can be done one handed while you play a real dps class. This nerf has the potential to relegate brigands to a single purpose, mitigation debuffs. I don't want to be a "one note" character. Right now it takes real skill to keep below the mobs hate radar, its a very delicate dance with death. That's what I like about the class.</p><p>If we have to joust a mob then gone are the days of a "skilled" brigand. There is no chance we will ever pull agro with our ranged abilities... I mean ability. For the most part we wouldn't even have to use detaunts and would still fly well below the mobs hate radar with a good tank.</p><p>You may think this skill is not class defining but in my opinion the current design of a raiding brigand is largely built around it. If its rendered unusable then the brigand class needs to be redesigned to compensate.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Very good point there.  It does require more self-control, and a lil dance to not be on the top of the NPC food chain.  We dont get any hate transfers, just a lousy proc on main hand, shadowslip, and elude.  If its not skill keeping us alive with the damage/debuffs, the added hate from AR and all the forementioned, I dont know what is. </p><p> </p><p>Additional side note: For those that wish us to joust like the rest of you... I hope, pray, and dream of the day when rangers/mages have to joust to avoid AoE's outside melee range.  As well as jousting out to avoid Assaults.  Then it will be fair!</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:42 PM</span></p>

[kyth]

   i find it funny how Chix which i am guessing is a semi newer brigand is telling the rest of us whats up...<div></div>

[Gyilok]

<div></div><p>well I have also done some testing and the debuff tests are right, but since this testing was done after lu 19 we wont know if the cap raise came with the disappearance of immunities, or happened somewhere along the way, was a pretty long while back when last time i have checked how debuffs stack</p><p>atm the cap seems at 4k, which is slightly above master 1 double upped dispatch (3712)</p><p>double upped dispatch procs adestes at 627 for me while dispatch+ murd rake does 642 (got same numbers on grey and green mobs, so con doesnt seem to affect it)</p><p>as for the 3 skills double upped, there is no reasonable explanation to that but it still happens, I have had shrouded blade blocked multiple times after hitting shrouded blade-debilitate-murdrous-double up (which reverses the order of the double upped skills so the first one used wil be last repeated) and the only explanation to that is that shrouded gets double upped and blocks it (even though the description says 25% debuff both on skill and on double up list), will check back in combat log next time it happens, also happens to revoke sometimes which seems even trickier to get of so close to backstabs, so double up still has its little secrets</p><p>as for the change to AR if it goes live in the borked version that it breaks on any damage received, with 30 sec recast it will be next to useless, our survival will mostly be dependant either on gear or timing, AR will have very limited use when it breaks almost every time we hit a mob, unless we got wards on constantly soaking up the damage shields of mobs, or there will be dispels for every type of mob buffs</p><p>chix isnt new btw, just he luckily took time to do these tests others didnt bother with after the debuff caps were defined and commonly accepted, but atleast it got me testing too instead of late night slacking hehe</p>

[Own]

I have tested it too stiz, it doesnt work well with CA i dont really see a difference.

[Own]

4k must seem bout right, i tested it with my assasin friends snare poisen debuff and got the same numbers

[verydanger]

As for me being the only going against the crowd in here, thats not completely true. There have been other posts saying the same thing. ie, this is not the end of the world for brigands, we'll just have to adapt and make do with what we got, we will still be very useful.Even if I was the only one, it would just remind of when DoF beta NDA was lifted and we first got a peek of our new DoF abilities (among them AR). IIRC, I indeed was the only saying it might be  bit overpowered and surely must heading for a nerf of some kind? Didnt take too many days after that until the 'increase hate gain' component was added. I think we can agree that was a sensible 'nerf'? After all, having complete and permanent AE immunity without any kind of penalty wouldnt have been fair unless every class had a way to be 100% effective during AE fights also - ie either give them the same AE immunity or make them 100% ranged characters.<span><blockquote><hr>draknfyr wrote:<div></div><p>This just makes it that much easier to simply "box" a brigand on a raid than bring along a real one. Run it in, hit 2 or 3 CA's run it out. That all can be done one handed while you play a real dps class. This nerf has the potential to relegate brigands to a single purpose, mitigation debuffs. I don't want to be a "one note" character. Right now it takes real skill to keep below the mobs hate radar, its a very delicate dance with death. That's what I like about the class.</p><p>If we have to joust a mob then gone are the days of a "skilled" brigand. There is no chance we will ever pull agro with our ranged abilities... I mean ability. For the most part we wouldn't even have to use detaunts and would still fly well below the mobs hate radar with a good tank.</p><hr></blockquote>You are contradicting yourself. How is jousting just using ones ranged abilities? Jousting means cramming an optimum amount of melee range CA's into shorter time windows. Trust me, this imposes just a big challenge aggro-wise, if not bigger.And you really have me beat as how to being untouchable by AE makes it MORE challenging? If someone is gonna box a brigand after LU20 in order to just 'hit 2 or 3 CA's' as you say, whats stopping them from doing it right now? Isnt it EASIER to do that currently with AR as it is? Just leave him standing by the mob, no need to run him in and out between AE's.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And Kythik, no I'm not a 'semi newer' brigand. I'm not the one saying I created my brigand solely for AR you know? Maybe you're not either, but the way people are talking here it seems to be the case for many.Wanna know what I find 'funny' though? When people are SO fast to claim they know better since they raid T6, but arent prepared to back that up with anything. If I was gonna claim I know more than people, I would make dang sure to share the knowledge I find so superior.I started my argumenting here with a somewhat humble approach. People who raid T6 were saying, we cant debuff without AE immunity. So I asked, Wow, are the AE's really that bad that you cant find joust windows AT ALL? No answer, more stuff about it being IMPOSSIBLE for us to do anything without complete AE immunity, accusations of other classes bringing this nerf upon us, and arrogance towards me for questioning if its really that bad, since I havent raided T6. Pardon me for not being comfortable with that representing my voice too!And people here make it sound like T6 raiding is a COMPLETELY separate experience from T5 raiding or even fighting lesser T6 epics, and I just dont see that. I've been talking about debuff durations, casting timers, AE timers, debuff caps etc, if these things are so bleedin' different in T6 raids then please explain to me how, until you do I'm gonna assume T6 raiding is built around the SAME BASIC GAME MECHANICS as everything else.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------As for the debuff caps and testing, I can only say that as long as I've been running tests (around 2 months - very rough estimate), the results have been identical. IE, Dispatch M1 (not doubled up) gets you about 95% towards the cap (which seems reached at about 4k as Stizeyo says), and higher level cons means _slighlty_ higher caps.Double up doing 3 CA's is not something I've ever experienced, but if someone has observed it than I am prepared to believe it, guess it wouldnt be the first time a spell description is inaccurate.</span><div></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<div></div><p>This discussion has gotten way off track.</p><p>It's obvious that as much as we've yelled, no devs are going to answer us here. </p><p>Let's go hijack some ranger threads and maybe we'll get a response. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[DaLurk]

Anyone got an answer from the PM-Lockeye Operation ? (Let's dream)<div></div>

[Gyilok]

<div></div>well there is always hope it will get changed to something useful, just like befuddle adversaries (well it changed long after going live), so beta guys keep the feedback running and dont give up

[kyth]

   I have a feeling they will push this live then after a month or so they will change it to something useful.  The adversaries line was talked about extensively in DoF beta.  It wasnt until well after DoF went live that Lockeye changed it to what us in the DoF beta had said it should have been.  Well minus about 10% or so on the proc rate.   Only thing we can do is /feedback on test and beta, continue our posts here, and PM lockeye and gallenite.  Hopefully this will have some impact on their thought process. <div></div>

[Fig]

<div><p>On A previous post (in the beta secsion) of mine about the Amazing Reflexes nerf I broke a personal rule of mine.  I brought up a problem but didn't bring a solution, so here goes, in order of my preference.</p><p>Best Case:Leave it alone, just like it was.  Don't give us a class-defining ability for nearly 10 levels and an entire expansion and then turn it into mush with no warning. I really see no reason to remove this ability, or if you prefer a different wording, "cripple it to the point of being useless on raids".</p><p>Another option, less than ideal:Breaks on damage OTHER THAN damage shields, and has a MUCH MUCH lower recast time (5seconds or less). This is nearly as good as the original for a well-trained Brigand.  With our evades, we can avoid aggro and on many fights take zero damage, thus enabling us to maintain the AR effects throughout a fight but only through aggro management and skill.  Not sure if it can be easily coded to break on damage but NOT break on Damage Shields, but this will still make us vulnerable at times, and force us to not only pay attention to aggro (which we already have to do a lot) but pay more attention to our buffs so we don't get caught in AoE range at the wrong time.  There WILL be deaths to AoE with this option.  Someone will get lazy, forget, or not notice it dropping at the end of one fight, move on to the next, charge, and get nuked to death ASAP. Someone WILL overaggro and take one on the chin (dropping AR) right before the AoE goes off, or get adds on a fight and be stunned/stifled and get tagged.</p><p>Yet another, even less effective:Works like a rune or ward.  Breaks after a total of X damage. Has a MUCH MUCH lower recast time (5 seconds or less). This way, we can turn on AR, charge, fight some, and even if the mob has a DS we can monitor that and know that my AR is about to wear off and plan accordingly.  The only times we will be completely screwed is when we don't pay enough attention, rack up too much damage taken, drop AR, AND get nuked with the AoE at almost the same time. I don't much like this option and hesitate to even mention it but it IS another option.</p><p>Finally, an option, but not one I would care to see:Breaks on any damage (like it is on beta now) but has a near-instant recast time.  This would mean 2 things to me as a raiding Brigand.  I would turn into a buff-spamming button-clicking madman (to make sure it was always on) AND I would come to despise damage shields.  If a change like this were made there would have to be some serious logic and justification presented to defend the new trend of so many (all?) raid mobs having damage shields. With dual wielders, 2 damage shield hits per combat round would mean that AR would be dropping at least once every combat round and my combat would look like this:  Stab, AR, Dispatch, AR, Shrouded Blade, AR...you get the idea.</p><p>The other thing that just came to me is damage in general. The current state of AR on beta means that using the manastone or vessel/overflowing vessel is severely affected (broken). Also don't forget the "Beg for Mercy" line of spells.  Taking one for the team (like tanks and their intercede) won't be something I'm willing to do if I know that it will strip my best raiding ability and leave me "naked" to the effects of the mob's AoE.</p><p>Also, if the powers that be are DEAD SET on making AR break, at least consider the way it breaks. Does it just fall off with no warning? Or shouldn't it "fade". That way we can know to head for the hills, so to speak.  Spell wording might be similar to the way Lurk used to be (I sure do miss Lurk).</p><p>Amazing reflexes:Immune to AOE unless primary targetTerminates if damage takenCasts "OMG RUNNNNN!!eleven!1" on termination----OMG RUNNNNN!!eleven!1 makes target immune to AOE for 10 seconds</p><p>At least then we'd have some warning.</p><p>Again, don't mistake my offering of alternative solutions to mean anything.  Know that without a doubt I want the spell left alone as it exists on Live servers right now. I  want to be clear about that so there is no misunderstanding.</p><p>Ergot Jones of Unrest<Drow></p><p>PS: I have had one other recent option come to mind that would be super easy to code, a simple database mod just like the way mentor works.  If AR is on you, cut your DPS and combat art damage by X%.</p><p>That would answer the class-envy of others saying we do too much DPS, when in fact I don't think that is the main problem, I think it's outright jealousy.</p></div>

[draknfyr]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><p> </p><blockquote><hr>verydanger wrote:<span><blockquote> </blockquote><p>You are contradicting yourself. How is jousting just using ones ranged abilities? Jousting means cramming an optimum amount of melee range CA's into shorter time windows. Trust me, this imposes just a big challenge aggro-wise, if not bigger.And you really have me beat as how to being untouchable by AE makes it MORE challenging? If someone is gonna box a brigand after LU20 in order to just 'hit 2 or 3 CA's' as you say, whats stopping them from doing it right now? Isnt it EASIER to do that currently with AR as it is? Just leave him standing by the mob, no need to run him in and out between AE's.</span></p><hr><p> </p><p>My reasons for keeping the skill as is may be somewhat flawed but you have yet to give a good reason for it to be changed other than to appease some other class(es). Rangers, mages and healers have the ability to do their jobs outside the aoe. AR is just our ace card that lets us do pretty much the same. No, its not a huge nerf but it has the potential to be. It does not hurt anyone else's abilities. Does not change our dps a whole heck of a lot. Its just a nice feature to a class that otherwise has been fairly lackluster.</p><p>As for challenge? If I turn off AR and joust with the rest of the raid I never pull agro whether I spam my skills on the in call or not. This may just be due to our raid tank being well equipped and knowing what he's doing, but if I put up AR I have to be very careful of what I do so I don't pull agro. I live right on the edge of agro with it on and benefit only in the fact that I don't have to joust. Find me the harm in that.</p></blockquote><p> </p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Swoonb]

<div>that sucks dont change it</div><div> </div>

[Toy Dragon]

<font color="#66ff99">The first thing I thought when I saw this thread was:  It takes a real crisis for us to get a thread to page 9.Please don't change our precious Amazing Reflexes!I've talked to people on the Lucan D'Lere server, people who I've raided [Removed for Content] and strangers alike, and have had many people agree that a nerf on such a useful skill that allows us to be debuffing raid mobs for the casters while the rest of the scouts are out of the fray is completely absurd.  It's a benefit to all classes, not just brigands, but I DON'T believe it's a big enough benefit to warrant a nerf.</font><div></div>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>was in gates tonight, all kinds of sk mobs with dmg shields...also ppr...non debuffable sks.</p><p> </p><p>so I guess our wonderful brigand hater thats not been further than ljs arguements are moote.</p>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div><p>was in gates tonight, all kinds of sk mobs with dmg shields...also ppr...non debuffable sks.</p><p> </p><p>so I guess our wonderful brigand hater thats not been further than ljs arguements are moote.</p><hr></blockquote>Shadow Knights are a VERY popular NPC choice... lolIm always noitcing being hit now, if AR goes live like Arga says it is now. AR is gone.</span><div></div>

[Riversideblues]

im sick of listening to preds/mages talk about how broken AR is and how it's unfair, well fine, if you want things to be fair and take away AR, then why not have the range on all mage nukes be 5m, same with ranger ranged CA's and take away the huge burst damage from assasins to compensate for the fact that brigs have one (lame) ranged move and one 600~ damage aoe so we are all on an even playing field. brigs are one mob debuff/dps'ers and i dont understand why people want us nerfed so bad when we're out there to benifit everyone :S<div></div>

[Cerivus2]

<div></div><p><font size="7">"If it was too powerful, why give it to other classes."</font></p><p><font size="3"></font> </p><p><font size="3">This is a prime example of developer oversight. They take away from the class that should have it and give it to classes that don't need it. They do not play the class.</font></p><p><font size="3">Our AA's are F'ed up. aka: pickpocket is a waste of time, band of thugs is a Joke. If I wanted pets I would play a pet class. Some of them require you to fight with a sheild to even use...</font></p><p><font size="3">Ruse = Nerf   Dbl Up = Worthless no imagination ability  Stealth/FD = Gone  DarkElf Brigs get a fun spell that makes them DarkElf's    The list rolls on.</font></p><p><font size="3"></font> </p><p></p>

[ibeo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cerivus2 wrote:<div></div><p><font size="7">"If it was too powerful, why give it to other classes."</font></p><p><font size="3"></font> </p><p><font size="3">This is a prime example of developer oversight. They take away from the class that should have it and give it to classes that don't need it. They do not play the class.</font></p><p><font size="3">Our AA's are F'ed up. aka: pickpocket is a waste of time, band of thugs is a Joke. If I wanted pets I would play a pet class. Some of them require you to fight with a sheild to even use...</font></p><p><font size="3">Ruse = Nerf   Dbl Up = Worthless no imagination ability  Stealth/FD = Gone  DarkElf Brigs get a fun spell that makes them DarkElf's    The list rolls on.</font></p><p><font size="3"></font> </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>QFE

[verydanger]

<span><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div><p>was in gates tonight, all kinds of sk mobs with dmg shields...also ppr...non debuffable sks.</p><p> </p><p>so I guess our wonderful brigand hater thats not been further than ljs arguements are moote.</p><hr></blockquote>Never based any of my arguments on mobs having or not having damage shields. Lil less posting and a lil more reading, pls.</span><div></div>

[Atrocity]

I'll pay you money to follow your own advice./point libraryVlademir DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div>

[verydanger]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Atrocity wrote:I'll pay you money to follow your own advice./point libraryVlademir DelereLucan D'Lere<div></div><hr></blockquote>Nah, I dare not go out and risk having the sky fall down on me. (aka SoE making some changes to the game)</span></div>

[Riversideblues]

ruse nerfed? last time i checked they made a whole line, try hitting K and looking arounddouble up skill has no imagination? well in comparison to others, yes, yes it imaginativebrigands turn into ogres/woodelves.... not darkelves<div></div>

[Cerivus2]

<div></div><p>Suk it. I posted it in a mad rage. I'm mad.</p><p> </p><p>Band of Thugs is a joke "fun" spell. Yet another low imagination whimsical, ill thought out ability, thrown at us to give us hope that stuff will change for our class in a positive light, futureside. I got Mage Inviz nerfed. I am going to take up a new cause to point out the falsehoods of other classes, even if I have not played them. Kinda like what the devs do in developing the Brigand class. They don't role a Brigand, so it is obvious that we are overpowered and need fixing to be like everyone else based on the other classes that hate us. No need to yell at the rangers though. Wink Wink.. You guys got what you needed after coming hear and telling us how AR should be. GL with the change.</p><p>Scream Balance! It seems to be the word of choice now days.</p><p> </p>