Brigands Gimped

[invisiblefromtheba]

<DIV>Well here it goes, have been playing a Brigand from day 1 and at level 43 i have to come to point where i am saying to my self what in the hell am i doing , i have seen many classes getting better upgrades skill wise while in my mind we are getting skills that are useless , i looked at my skill bar its really sad , really sad , why would a Brigand that is a positional attack person need Cuss, and others that increase aggro , i really think this was a filler Class , very little tought was put into this class, but i will not give up on the Brigand class .. but i really think the DEV on this one miss the boat , but i understand that every class is not perfect by no means but gezz , </DIV>

[Kegofbud]

<DIV> I will say you are right about one thing, why do you need Cuss because at 43 you have Upbraid on the same timer. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Otherwise I'll say this, I don't think our skills are useless at all. They are situational skills. There are plenty of times when I am stuck tanking for a lower group where the mobs can't really hit me but they can sure hit the other people. Upbraid is useful to me then to hold agro when a Wizard gets nuke happy or a healer start spammign heals. I also use it when in group a tank doesn't notice a healer draw one mob on agro. I can pull that mob off him with a back attack and one taunt, typically. It's all part of the utility of our class. Better for me to take the hits then a healer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I dont' find the class a "filler" class at all. In fact, it's the only class I've really loved playing. We are the best class in the game, in my opinion. Maybe you just don't like the skillset because at heart you'd rather be playing a different style character?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Edit: Forgot to also say that you are getting at something with the quality of some of our upgrades. I definitely think some of our attacks don't skill up well upon upgrade from a past version. Hidden Shiv to Craven Delight isn't much of an upgrade, for example.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:55 AM</span>

[invisiblefromtheba]

I totally agree , with tanking , but you know well as i do we as brigand are behind the mob , but i think we should be in the same lines [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] the assassins on the dps , i thought thats what brigands were all about , but i seem to fell that we are way short on that

[Dtrick]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> invisiblefromtheback wrote:<BR> I totally agree , with tanking , but you know well as i do we as brigand are behind the mob , but i think we should be in the same lines [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] the assassins on the dps , i thought thats what brigands were all about , but i seem to fell that we are way short on that<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't know where you are getting your numbers from, but if you check through this board and the Assassin board, you will notice there are a lot of complaints about Brigands being at the top of the DPS Scout ladder.  Just like Kegofbud said, maybe you just feel as if you are getting the short end of the stick and would rather be playing another class.  As for me, I absolutely love this class and would not play any other class.</P> <P>On the subject of Cuss/Upbraid, I use it all the time when it is needed.  I duo with a Warlock a lot and I have to use it all of the time when we are grouped together.  When I am in a full group and there is only 1 healer, I am watching the healers health all the time.  If something is beating on them, time for me to off tank or just take the hits so the healer doesn't die.</P>

[Zerim]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> invisiblefromtheback wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well here it goes, have been playing a Brigand from day 1 and at level 43 i have to come to point where i am saying to my self what in the hell am i doing , i have seen many classes getting better upgrades skill wise while in my mind we are getting skills that are useless , i looked at my skill bar its really sad , really sad , why would a Brigand that is a positional attack person need Cuss, and others that increase aggro , i really think this was a filler Class , very little tought was put into this class, but i will not give up on the Brigand class .. but i really think the DEV on this one miss the boat , but i understand that every class is not perfect by no means but gezz ,</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>WTB whatever he is smoking. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll let Moorgard respond to this guys thread - since it echoes my sentiments with regard to invisiblefromtheback's post:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=53900#M53900" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=53900#M53900</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><EM>You've touched on something fairly substantive here, and it's a point that's difficult to get across in a way that people will accept. In fact, some will probably get mad at me for even bringing this up, and I apologize in advance for derailing this thread.<BR> <BR>Crafting is indeed a combination of skill and luck, and we'd definitely like the system to favor skill. Pure random chance would mean that everyone would end up with similar results over time. Clearly, as you point out, this isn't the case.<BR> <BR>It's the same thing with adventuring. <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Two people can have the same gear, be the same level and class, fighting the same mobs. Yet they report vastly different results, one claiming they are hopelessly broken and the other saying they do just fine.</STRONG></FONT><BR> <BR>So what's the difference? Is it random numbers, or player skill?<BR> <BR>I don't know if I've ever seen anyone on an MMO message board complain about their class and then admit "But then again, I might not be playing my class very well." On the other hand, you can hardly look at a gameplay-related thread without multiple people blaming the designers, the random number generator, some dark corporate scheme, or any number of factors as to why they can't do what they want to do. Sure, there can be legitimate issues that cause real gameplay problems. But when there isn't, and it's a situation where one person says their class stinks while another person thinks it's great, how do you figure out who's right?<BR> <BR>It wouldn't be logical to assume that everyone plays this type of game with the same level of skill. Certainly not everyone who throws a baseball pitches like Kurt Schilling, and we don't expect them to. Computer games may not make the same physical demands as a sport, but that doesn't mean skill isn't important.<BR> <BR>Ever since the days of the Atari 2600, video games have addressed this fact. In many console games, you get to pick the skill level at which you play. Computer games, too. I personally don't feel any shame if I try out an FPS on "beginner" mode while some 12-year-old kid is playing on "super extreme" setting; I hereby acknowledge that I suck at FPS games. But you shouldn't need to be the best at something--whether it's baseball or Quake--in order to enjoy it.<BR> <BR>MMOs, of course, don't have a difficulty switch that can be changed for different skill levels of players. By the very nature of MMOs, you have to make the playing field as level as possible. While some classes might be more straightforward to play than others, I would venture to guess that the goal of most MMO designers is to make every class have some elements that reward skillful play.<BR> <BR>But as soon as you do that--as soon as you make it so one player can outperform another based on the way they use the tools available to them--you introduce inequality. Because I will tell you this: <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>a poorly played character, regardless of how technically well-designed or well-balanced its class may be, is broken in a fundamental way</FONT></STRONG>. And except in the most obvious cases, it usually isn't the player who gets blamed for that: it's the design team.<BR> <BR>Again, I say this not to anger anyone or to escape culpability for bugs or broken features. We certainly have our share of those. But even if every bug is fixed and every ability has some kind of parity, <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>there will be people swearing that their class is utterly broken</STRONG></FONT>. So at that point you either have to blame the random number generator or else find another factor that is responsible.</EM></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Zerimar on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[Play-D]

<P>I don't think brigands are broken but certainly our taunts can only used very very situationally. I didn't envision our class to be a small group tank, but I also thought this utility was supposed to give us a much more needed spot in your average group.</P> <P>But taunts aren't what really gets to me, its our stuns. They are added into many of attacks, but why if the mob breaks our stun right after it's hit again, this is a needless addition and most likley comes at the cost of more aggro.</P> <P>In fact alot of our attacks have added aggro portions like negligible slows, snares, or buffs. This wouldn't be near as much of a problem if there was any difference with plead for mercy vs beg for mercy, but fo the most part they are the same exact skill with a 3 second cast time, 3 seconds?!</P> <P>I like my brig, but I would also like to see some changes. If we are supposed to play healer peelers, give us a very short duration ward on our taunts possibly with a slight mob debuff to make sure that this skill can't be used to replace a real tank. Change those stuns on our CA's to be short duration stops to the mob maybe one second. Make our deaggro lines a little faster casting, and I think we would live up to the utility our skills promised.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Play-Doh on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[WuphonsReach]

I don't think we're gimped at all. I retired a 37 SK to start a brigand. The rogue/brigand line is a much more enjoyable class to play then the SK class. I've posted my list of likes/dislikes elsewhere already, but it's lengthy and there's always something I can be doing to make the group better.(32 brigand... soon to be 33)

[Banef]

You're doing something wrong if you feel gimped.

[Eris]

<P>I love the taunt line of my Brig. And so most of my groupmates. I usually do pickup groups because i tend to be lower level than the rest of my guild (How dare they be higher level than their rightfull leader...:smileymad: ) and as we all know pickups are at best chancy things. Aggro management is not the best mastered skill in those kind of group. Thats where i usually come in</P> <P>With those taunts i can honestly state that ive saved more than one groupmate from death and prevented wipes on more than one occasion. I even use them to take aggro from the tank from time to time if he is about to drop. I can whistand more beating than a mage class or a priest class. If we get an add and tank either doesnt see it or is kinda lop and cannot taunt it, the add will most prolly take on those that will be down in 2 to 4 hits. One of my role is to prevent taht. And taht works pretty well. And once i start taunting the mob i have the time to call for add in /gsay, time that a caster/healer wouldnt prolly have.</P> <P>The nice thing is also that, as a brigand, im far from useless or powerless even when im in front of a mob. Sure i loose DPS but i can still put a substantial dent in its HP and do some pretty decent damage. Im not a tank by any mean, but i can fill in when needed.</P><p>Message Edited by Eris on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 AM</span>

[ag]

<div></div><div></div>/em dons the Clever Cloak Of Sarcasm(tm) Correct.  Brigands are horribly gimped.  There is nothing to see here, please move along. <i>This is not the sub-class you're looking for.</i> /em takes off the Clever Cloak of Sarcasm(tm)<p>Message Edited by agra on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:23 AM</span>

[Gobi]

<DIV>Dude you should go play an Assassin only Brigand can appreciate a Brigand... If you don't like the brigand class then you are a Predator... you will be happy ... we will be too</DIV>

[MaestroX]

<P>At the risk of drawing unwanted attention from the people steering you away from their favorite class I must say:</P> <P><FONT size=4> I LOVE THIS CLASS</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3>It absolutely rocks.  We can solo orange solo mobs,  solo stealth around to ding quests in zones way over our head.   We have arguably the best group dps in the game when a tank has the aggro.  It absolutely feels like cheeting everytime I burgle a GROUP to the bottom of a hostle zone like FG, RoV, and now RE to get to the good parts without spending an hour to fight down there.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>It is also not an accident that all the other classes got a tweak in the last patch except for Brigand.  Brigand is a very functional class with no major issues and few small issues.  I swear on my life they better keep the @#$%in nerf bat away or somebody is gonna get /clobbered.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>/endfanboyrant</FONT></DIV>

[sociobiologi]

Talking about asking for a nerf! You are also wrong, we are not uber in any way, we dont do the most DPS in teams and group stealth is rarely appreciated. Clobbers! <div></div>

[Azr]

Well at lvl 48 and lucky enough to always group with a high lvl coerer (my wife), I can tank perma in a pinch when our group can't find a tank. I don't have to worry about adds becase the coercer takes care of em and she even enhances my hate on targets with a nice buff she has. I always use a shield and a 1 hander when I tank and 1 healer in group has np keeping me alive. I am by no means a replacement for a tank nor do I want to be. Original poster sounds like the kind of guy who buys an SUV and only uses it it good weather and on flat roads. Just because you don't use you 4 wheel drive doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Almost lvl 50 and am happy overall with our class. Do we need some attention? Sure we do, but all in all I love being a brig.

[Kegofbud]

<DIV> I am happy with all our skills except maybe a skill or two that doesn't scale well, that's another topic though. We are very versatile. I can take agro off a healer if I need to because I'd rather die to keep the healer alive and healing the tank then have the healer wipe=group wipe. Anyone who doesn't appreciate the class we have probably isn't playing it right or just has false expectations for the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I can tank in a pinch, as others have said, in CT with one healer on single ^^ mobs. Can a Warlock tank a ^^ Hunter or Spinechiller in CT with only a Templar grouped with him? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Stealthy Burglarly sounds underused by many people who post. I use it to walk through dungeons with groups to nameds while others groups sit and try to fight their way. By the time they get to the nameds, we are usually just finishing them off while they watch and sulk. People are just learning what Brigands are in some circles and when they know they repeatedly look for you to join their groups. I have groups looking for me to come join them when I don't have my LFG tag up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In summary, I stand by my original post. If you think we are gimped, you are playign the wrong class.</DIV>

[AgricolaMo]

<P>I just wanted to throw in my Swashbuckler comment here:  we have the same issue with underappreciation over our groupstealth as you folks seem to.  Granted, my core group (me, my brother, his wife, our uncle, and an old HS buddy we've known for 15 years) totally appreciates groupsneak, and we use it all the time.  But trying to educate the random pickup group about the nuances of groupsneak is a chore unto itself.  We also have the small issue of trying to convince folks that our 22s duration/30sec recast Mez CA is worth having/using.  </P> <P>I just wanted to toss out some love to the my brigand brothers out there, from a 36 Swashbuckler:  we're with you!</P> <P><FONT size=1>Inkidoo Gearheart</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>36th Halasian Swashbuckler</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1><Gnomish Death Squad></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Qeynos, Crushbone</FONT></P>

[Turb]

Well, I had an illusionist that I shelved because pick up groups just didn't get the whole mes thing, or even the whole /assist idea.So a swashie with mes is even trickier <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Doesn't your poison break the mes as soon as it hits, or does the mes hold good for 20 secs regardless? Is it resisted a lot? The illusionist messes are pretty reliable, but are on shorter timers and can be cast at rnage of course...

[Gyilok]

<P>you shouldnt shelf a class beacuse low level pickup groups dont get the meaning of it (and enchanters are a must in high level raids)</P> <P>mezzes are very useful, any high lvl can confirm that, tho shwashies dont use them as much as enchanters do, but thats probably because they dont want to take the time to tell lvl 40+ players knowing nothing about other classes that they can do almost the same effect as chanters</P>

[Kegofbud]

Yeah, don't be discouraged because people don't know what your mez can do. I still meet people who ask me what a Brigand is. :smileywink:

[Turb]

I'm still surprised that Splitpaw has 8x the number of pallys, guardians and templars as brigands. Nice little secret club... ssssh! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />My chanter still lives, he'll be back! (he's minorly gimped by being an ogre enchanter, but so much more fun to play that way... looks dandy in his purple robes)

[Play-D]

<HR> <DIV>I'm still surprised that Splitpaw has 8x the number of pallys, guardians and templars as brigands. <HR> </DIV> <DIV>There is a reason for that those classes you listed are extreamly versitile. All of them can solo and are much needed addtions to any group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Palli's can even mach our damage when they start dropping their holy bombs, but they can't sustain it for very long unless a chanter is in the group.  Add that with nice tanking, buffs, and heals and you can see why so many people flock to these types of classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have yet to see a green ^^ named a guardian can't solo, but they may be out there. These also make some of the best raid tanks at higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know much about templars myself I mostly group with Inq's, so anything I would say here would just be speculation on my part, but they seem to do well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are reasons why people flock to certain classes, it is generally because they have more skills and versatility then some others. Does that mean Brigs suck, of course not, but we rely on groups far more then groups rely on us.</DIV>

[Fairlane]

<DIV> <P>I finally have to make a post about all the recent Brigand bashing I have been seeing on these and many other forums. I really dont understand where such disgust for the role of the Brigand is coming from. Are we the best DPS in the game? No. Do we do any one thing better than any other class? No. Do we get any class defining abilities that make us any better than any other class? No. Are we a blast to play? You better believe it.</P> <P>Prior to playing EQ2 I had played EQ1 since around its release. I have always seen this constant need for people to be the best. If there class wasn't the best it was this ongoing thing about how bad SoE hated them and how bad they had been nerfed and blah blah blah. I've never been able to understand that mentality.</P> <P>I do appreciate the people on the boards that can construct an intelligent post about what they would like to see changed and for what reasons. When it gets to the point of people complaining w/o reason about certain aspects of their characters that I really start to wonder why they are even playing that character or this game for that matter. Relax a little and look at some of the good points of your character.</P> <P>I've played my Brigand from day one with out any desire to start another character. I have leveled him to 50, completed numerous heritage quests, and killed some of the most powerful raid mobs in the game. Being a Brigand has not hindered me from doing anything that anyone else could do. In fact I really enjoy playing the class that everyone seems to think is the "odd man out" of sorts. On my server Brigands are the least played class at under 100 players. I am currently the only active level 50 Brigand. I love it.</P> <P>My intent here was not to start a flame war. I'm just hoping that a few of you will take a step back and enjoy your toon for what it is instead of always looking at it as what it isnt. </P> <P>-Cheeb of Neriak</P></DIV>

[Play-D]

Flame war? Were you responding to a different thread by chance Fair? <div></div>

[AgricolaMo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turb0T wrote:<BR>Well, I had an illusionist that I shelved because pick up groups just didn't get the whole mes thing, or even the whole /assist idea.<BR><BR>So a swashie with mes is even trickier <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Doesn't your poison break the mes as soon as it hits, or does the mes hold good for 20 secs regardless? Is it resisted a lot? The illusionist messes are pretty reliable, but are on shorter timers and can be cast at rnage of course...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Poison does break my mez, you're correct.  What I usually use it for is second or third mobs in a group, not the one we're beat on.  Take, for example, the Epicx2 Orc Savages with Vallon Grunts over by Three Toes Lake in Zek.  When we assault a group of those, I generally tell the group I'm with that I'm going to mez the Savage, and that we need to kill the Grunts first.  This has proven to be the best method for handling that sort of encounter.  So, the main tank pulls a Grunt, and on the way in, I snag the Savage with my mez, then switch to assisting the main tank or main assist  (if we bother to have a different person as assist).  ~22 seconds later, I let the group know that mez broke, and that it'll be up in about 8 seconds (after I type it).  When it's back up, I tab over to the Savage, start the mez, then immediately tab back to the main target, or Fkey switch to the Main tank.  The Mez (or any other combat art, for that matter) completes against whomever it was targeted on when it was initiated, not when finished, so I can start right back to doing damage, without losing much in the way of DPS.  </P> <P>On the issue of resist, I don't recall our mez ever being resisted by anything that it could affect (i.e., non-epic-named mobs or mobs under 40).  </P> <P>Today, we had an enchanter in our group on these mobs.  He'd mez up the Savage, and I'd throw mine down on one of the Grunts, leaving us with just two mobs to contend with.  It was beautiful.  He'd then mez up the one I had tied down with a real mez when his recast time had come up.  Beautiful.  </P> <P>Inkidoo Gearheart</P>

[Kirma]

<P>I use my taunts often, i have upbraid adept 3.</P> <P>it's good for Tming adds when ur with a slow tank / no ench. Seeing brigands and troubadors are best scout tank..</P> <P> </P> <P>You dont think we have enough dmg skills as is? jesus. wake up</P>