Snoop at 17, Smuggler's Talent at 19 - What am I missing here?

[Naldiian]

<DIV>Is there a reason for these two both coming within 1.3 levels of each other? I just do not see the point of snoop at all when you hit 19 and get Smuggler's Talent which appears to be far better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does snoop do something I am not aware of? Or is snoop bugged and is acting as a sneak skill when it is supposed to be a buff or something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just seems a bit odd to me, and I dont want to be missing a function of either one that I need to know about.</DIV>

[khalysta]

<DIV>smuggler's talent is an out of combat stealth with a longer refresh and increased movement rate.  In other words its a utility stealth if you just want to crawl around an area and explore for a bit.</DIV>

[Rykilth]

<DIV>From what I've noticed while in Fallen Gate, Smugglers Talent allows you to move faster, however it doesn't seem to be as high of a skill as say Snoop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some higher level mobs could see through Smugglers Talent, while Sneak and Snoop (slower movement) those same mobs did not see me.   They also did not see through Smuggle.</DIV>

[Naldiian]

<DIV>Very odd, I have seen the opposite as far as what could see me - smugglers has let me sneak by some orange mobs while nothing else would allow it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the out of combat, that makes sense then - I never bother sneaking during combat anyway, but may appreciate that more when I have some skills that make it worthwhile to whip out the stealth attacks. Ambush just isnt worth the effort and time lost attacking really.</DIV>

[Farfarel]

<DIV>Snoop is out of combat as well.  I can only stealth during combat with Sneak itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't noticed much difference, but my sneak is seriously underleveled.  I haven't gotten an Adept I for it simply because it's also grey to me and I'm not spending money on a name upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only ambush mid combat for harder creatures, when the damage is needed.  It's not worth the effort, no, but uh-- lost attacking?  If you know how to time your skills, you're missing out on a whole maybe 20 damage, and I do 50-70 with ambush.  So, effort aside, considering it's rarely needed to be doing that much extra damage with how fast grind xp mobs drop, you're GAINING damage to take the 3 seconds to stealth.  Scout base DPS is terrible.  Especially for rogues and predators, our damage is based on the use of our skills, not by standing there with auto attack on.  Poison is the only real loss you might have, but there's a check for it each combat round, so you miss max three checks for it, and it doesn't go off <EM>that</EM> often. =p</DIV>

[Schor]

<DIV>I agree that it's kind of odd that they give them to you so close together.  If snoop was usable in combat it would be different, but it's not.  Maybe it's supposed to be?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They've had a number of our other skills messed up since release so it wouldn't really come as a surprise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, Far is correct that ambush adds to DPS even though it's kind of a hassle.  I tend to only reuse it on on long fights vs difficult single mobs, as it's fairly low in power usage compared to comparable damage skills like distracting blade.  If I'm doing fine power wise I usually just spam sneak attack, distracting blade, quick flurry, backstab, and HOs.  That keeps me pushing buttons the whole time pretty much.  Ambush is always a good way to start a fight though, don't forget about it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rykilth]

<DIV>Tried this again in Nektulos Forest.  Ashland Wisps saw through Smugglers Talent, yet did not see through Snoop.  Not sure what the deal is~</DIV>

[Schor]

<DIV>Im pretty sure the level of the skill has something to do with it as well.  I dunno about your server, but Smuggler's Talent: Adept1 drops (or at least it did the first week of release) like candy in blackburrow and can be had very cheaply in the qeynos area.  My ST is at Adept1 and Snoop is at App2 and I seem to get equal results with them.  Likewise with Smuggle at App3.  I don't ever use sneak anymore for stealthed movement, just for combat, so I couldnt tell you how it ranks up.</DIV>

[Cortec]

<DIV>At 24, Snoop is App2 and Smug's is App3.  I still have to use Snoop at times because mobs can see through Smug's.</DIV>

[Naldiian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Farfarello wrote:<BR> <DIV>Snoop is out of combat as well.  I can only stealth during combat with Sneak itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't noticed much difference, but my sneak is seriously underleveled.  I haven't gotten an Adept I for it simply because it's also grey to me and I'm not spending money on a name upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only ambush mid combat for harder creatures, when the damage is needed.  It's not worth the effort, no, but uh-- lost attacking?  If you know how to time your skills, you're missing out on a whole maybe 20 damage, and I do 50-70 with ambush.  So, effort aside, considering it's rarely needed to be doing that much extra damage with how fast grind xp mobs drop, you're GAINING damage to take the 3 seconds to stealth.  Scout base DPS is terrible.  Especially for rogues and predators, our damage is based on the use of our skills, not by standing there with auto attack on.  Poison is the only real loss you might have, but there's a check for it each combat round, so you miss max three checks for it, and it doesn't go off <EM>that</EM> often. =p</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Sorry, what I meant was that I can use a different combat art instead of stealthing and using ambush and end up with the same damage out put. I know we get a better version of ambush and I will definitely want to be using that soon anyway, so yeah it is worth the process for the damage overall, but we have so many attacks we can use that you could do something else to get the extra damage until the stealthed attack is a much bigger damage.

[Pyp]

<DIV>Well, it was explained to me all wrong then....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was told you have 'Sneak' for your own stealth, and 'Smuggle' for group stealth. These are like the base abilities or whatever and Sneak tends to be 'better' than smuggle if you are using it on yerself only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snoop then is used in conjunction wih Sneak to increase your Sneak (Speed Detection etc)</DIV> <DIV>Smugglers Talent is used in conjunction with Smuggle to improve your Smuggle (speed, detection etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if Im alone, I sneak + Snoop</DIV> <DIV>If Im grouped I Smuggle + Smugglers Talent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if this was the case it makes sense why you get them so soon together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this not the case then?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nypsqueak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Taith]

<DIV>No, its not the case, sneaks don't stack any more and they weren't meant to anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Smugglers Talent has better movement rate than Snoop but is seen through by more mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Neither are usable in combat (intended? not sure, would have thought Snoop would be good upgrade to Sneak).</DIV> <DIV>Sneak is usable in combat, neither of the other 2 are at this stage.</DIV> <DIV>Smuggle is a PBAOE group based sneak, any spellcasting or aggressive action will break sneak for everyone, as will going out of range.</DIV> <DIV>Smuggle and Smugglers Talent (at this point) have no relation to each other that I"m aware of.</DIV>

[Schor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taithos wrote:<BR> <DIV>No, its not the case, sneaks don't stack any more and they weren't meant to anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Smugglers Talent has better movement rate than Snoop but is seen through by more mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Neither are usable in combat (intended? not sure, would have thought Snoop would be good upgrade to Sneak).</DIV> <DIV>Sneak is usable in combat, neither of the other 2 are at this stage.</DIV> <DIV>Smuggle is a PBAOE group based sneak, any spellcasting or aggressive action will break sneak for everyone, as will going out of range.</DIV> <DIV>Smuggle and Smugglers Talent (at this point) have no relation to each other that I"m aware of.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Yup, right on all accounts.  You still can stack some of the skills, but threre's no bugged cumulative effects like there used to be.  I still stack smugglers talent and smuggle, but with no affect other than allowing me to move faster than the people in my group - sometimes this is a good thing, people in pickup groups who aren't used to stealth may not know to look for see-stealth scout mobs etc.  It's good to be able to stay in front of them so you have plenty of time to tell them to stop <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Farfarel]

I don't know if it's a bug or not, but currently you can use Smuggler's Talent without turning off auto attack or anything.  It will flag you as sneaking, but not put you in stealth-- you can use skills like tangling strike like this.  When the mob dies, you're dropped straight into stealth, and flagged again for sneaking.  If fights are long enough, you can get two high damage stealth attacks off per fight, and not have to worry about clicking a stealth to prepare for the next pull. =p<BR>

[Nagora]

<DIV>The reason you get the skills so close together is because Snoop is your version of the scout-based Sneak line.  Predators get Hunt at the same level.  Bards get Walk Lightly(?) I believe.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 19 you get Smuggler's Talent which is your special sneak line.  At that same level Predators get Shrouded Strike, which is their special upgrade to the Sneak Attack skill (back/flank positional).  So, that's how it works out like it does.  Bards get something else...</DIV> <DIV><BR>The fact that you guys can't attack out of Snoop sounds to me like a bug, unless they did that to differentiate more between Predators and Rogues.  Honestly, though, it must be a bug because expecting you to keep an out of date skill like Sneak on your bar is just ridiculous.  </DIV>

[TricksyRaton]

<DIV>Snoop is more effective at sneaking, and Smuggler's Talent is faster movement.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both, at least for now, behave the same in combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept Smugger's Talent seemed to make it move faster, not increase it's hiding ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If something sees through talent, it may not see through snoop.</DIV>

[Kiric]

if you use smugglers talent you can stack all 3 sneaks... out of combat it makes creatures not see you as well... sneak is in combat the rest are out of combat i think

[Dnip]

<DIV>Yesterday I went to nek forest. I saw a red mob, used snoop and it was still able to see me. So I tried smuggler's talent, and it couldn't see me. I even walked next to it and it didn't do crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmm, I thought snoop was supposed to be more powerful? Both are at app3.</DIV>

[TricksyRaton]

<DIV>Strange, I've never seen that before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have smuggler's at adept1, and yellow's see through it, but half the red's can't see through app III snoop.  Stacking them seem's to let snoop take precedence.</DIV>

[Nagora]

<DIV>I have a friend who plays a Brigand and it seems she can attack out of either Smuggler's Talent or Snoop with no problems (Ambush).  I'm not sure why you guys are having problems with it (mentioned much earlier in the thread).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Smuggler's Talent and the Predator/Assassin line of Slip Away really aren't the same.  Smuggler's Talent has a cast time, but seems to allow you to attack out of it and count as stealthed.  Slip Away has no cast time, but we can't use it in combat and we can't attack out of it (doesn't count as being stealthed).  Speed seems about the same.  <BR><BR>Overall, I'd say you guys have the edge in terms of Stealth movement, but that's clearly intended.  </DIV>

[Schor]

<DIV>You can make your opening stealth attack out of any of the brigand stealth skills as far as I know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, sneak is the only stealth skill you can use after combat is underway (out of sneak / snoop / smuggler's talent that is).  If I want to use ambush or tangling strike mid-combat, I must use sneak to do so.</DIV>