Should Swashes be toned down?

[Scotti]

<DIV>Simple informal survey, If indeed we are *too powerful* of a class, what would you suggest be done to tone down our class? By no means am I requesting a *nerf* of any sort,  just clarification (even justification) of our strength and usefulness as a class in both PvP and PvE. Any responses would be much appreciated :smileywink:</DIV>

[Luk]

I think we need a real tuning down of attitude, I mean look at us, those of us that are at the top of our class know it and are not afraid to let people know about it. I am proud of my class and very proud of my own abilities and being at or very near the top of my server is in my "humble" opinion a huge achievement, so please, suggest to the mods that they tune down my attitude.<div></div>

[Scotti]

<DIV>There definitely is a monstrous difference between a great swash and a mediocre one. Gear, Spell quality, and tactics all play into this. It seems that a lot of people group the great ones and the average ones into the same category which I think is giving the impression of an overall *uber class* instead of recognizing that some swashes are in a different league.</DIV>

[velneth]

I don't think swashy's are overpowered. What we are is versatile. We don't shine at any one thing in particular, but nor do we suck at any particular thing. For me, my role is to make sure that the healers and the nukers stay alive. If that means I DPS my little swashy heart out to kill things before the tank gets agro stolen or I step in to off tank or primary tank as needed, that's what I do.

[Neumann]

<DIV>meh...swashies that dont think they're overpowered arent overpowered cause they suck.  Any good swash, at least in terms of pvp, knows that they, and brigs as a class...rogues in general need a nerf.   Thats my opinion on these classes in pvp...however, I would try and find a way to make it not effect pve...at all.  In no way are we overpowered in pve, we do what we were designed to.  Dominate the quick fights w/ dps at close range and do t2 dps and t1 debuffs on long fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I think im god and i just need a Exortian Only Nerf.</DIV>

[Dakkon_10]

<DIV>PvE, no we are just where we should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PvP, very overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they ever do nerf us, it better be a pvp only nerf... I don't want my pve capability nerfed cause some noob is crying about being ganked over on nagafen...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: The only thing I think should be "toned down" is the look of our class set armor...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dakkon_1007 on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 AM</span>

[Cocytus]

<DIV>*sigh*<BR><BR>Christ. Now I have to deal with people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about PVP on the swash boards, not just PVP boards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, they're not overpowered. A PVP fight is determined simply - the smarter and/or more skilled of the two wins, even in a fight where one class is actually very weak against the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've lost to a monk before. Why? Because he was really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in smart, and he really knew what he was doing. And he was extremely careful about keeping an eye on my buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skill, people. There is no best class. There is no overpowered class.IMO that's like saying assassins shouldn't get decapitate in PVP because it's not fare and people can't really fight back when hit by it. There are ways to counter every single skill of every single class. It's not the better of the two PVPer's fault if the other needs practice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me and another swashbuckler friend actually dueled a mutual monk friend over and over for a few hours because he wanted practice in his swash strategy. Eventually, he was able to beat us. What did we have to do to win again? We had to formulate new strategies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for PVE....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No. We're where we should be. We are high DPS, but not top DPS. We have excellent debuffs, but not the best debuffs. We make good tanks, but not the best tanks. TBH I'm tired of hearing about all the assassins cryin NERF! when they don't know how the hell to play their own class. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Cocytus on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[liveja]

<P>They should definitely tone down my sexy, 'cause none of the other guys get any when I'm around, & the pretty-boy Elves are starting to get angry.</P> <P>& o ya, what Licit said, /nod</P>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>A well equipped swashie played by a good player with the right set ups is a very powerfull character, mainly due to the fact that we have the ability to be strong in many areas. Are some swashies 'overpowered'? Some are likely stepping the line there. Is swashbuckler as a class overpowered? no. Pretty much anyone can play swashies decently and in those occassions we are just perfectly balanced Id say. Those that excell at the class are able to squeeze out the class' abilites to very high levels, but that applies to all classes in varying degress, swashies with their versatility just happens to be one of those were the biggest  differences can be seen when compairing a mediocre with a top of the line. People see what the real good ones can do and think thats standard for the class and rolls their own swashie, thus there are so many atm but very few of those will ever reach those heights themselves and eventually roll onto another class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So no, I dun think we need to be toned down, and I think its totally acceptable that someone with the skills required can go beyond what the basic swashie can accomplish, who would want to play a class that you can not distinguish yourself in? My carpenter will never be better at carpentry then any other carpenter at same level, I dun wanna see that in adventure classes as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[liveja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cocytus wrote: TBH I'm tired of hearing about all the assassins cryin NERF! when they don't know how the hell to play their own class. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What this guy said.</P>

[kellan123]

<div><blockquote><hr>livejazz wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Cocytus wrote: TBH I'm tired of hearing about all the assassins cryin NERF! when they don't know how the hell to play their own class. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote> <p>What this guy said.</p><hr></blockquote>QFE. I run the parser on our raids. We're about a 20k dps raid force, in general. (18-24k depending on AFKs, mobs, etc..)Our Assassin is always in the top 3 and only switches around due to the Necro's LB, the Wizard's MB, if it's an AE encounter for the Warlock, etc...<i>Ceteris paribus</i>, a good Assassin will beat a good Swashbuckler in pure dps........but that's all he'll beat him in. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(I know the other factors to consider, like gear or AA, or which presidential candidate's mom had crabs, but I'm just reporting the facts)</div>

[Zygwen]

In my guild, we have an assassin that usualy tops the parse and out dps me and the other swashbucklers by 400 or more. It makes me wonder what all the fuss is over. So I looked at their AAs and you know what, they get more damage increasing AAs then we do and they still complain. Give me a break. I don't think we are overpowered raid wise. Far from it, especially since despite the fact that we can consistantely hit the top 6 in the dps parses we usualy only have one swashbuckler on raids. They gladly take 4 bards, 4 chanters, or 2 brigands but 2 swashbucklers? Well maybe, if they have nothing better to take or need AoE immunity because the bards aren't around. Face it, a raid only needs one swashbuckler and we are only slightly more desirable than having a Ranger without an uber bow. If that is your definition of being "too powerful" when it comes to raids then I think someone need a reality check. <div></div>

[Cocytus]

<P>A ranger with an "ok" bow, that is really good..is about even with a good swash, imo.</P> <P> </P> <P>Or at least I used to know a ranger who did about even dps with me back when I had my velium rapier. He was good. A shame he never got on raids for a better bow (successful ones anyway).</P>

[nirav21]

<P>Toning down is allways the wrong polocy no matter how overpowered the class is.</P> <P>People who play the class get upset and some start quiting.</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG>A much better method</STRONG></P> <P>Is to boost the classes that are weak in pvp and in pve. </P> <P>People get more class options and fun factor and variety. They start getting happy and bring in friends and more new people. </P> <P>SOE gets new customers. Beer starts falling from the sky and everyone gets to be happy.</P>

[Cocytus]

That's what i've always preached.

[liveja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote: <STRONG>A much better method </STRONG>Is to boost the classes that are weak in pvp and in pve. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've said this for years now, & it seems that players don't want to think that way: in general, far too many players act as if they'd rather see others cut down, then themselves raised up. It's "tall poppy syndrome" gone suicidal.</P> <P>Someone actually explained once, on the WoW General Forum, why both game designers & players prefer to nerf one class, than to buff the ones that are comparatively weak, but I don't remember exactly what the argument was. I think it boiled down to several things, tho:</P> <P>A. The people who play the classes that don't get buffed, will perceive it as their character having been nerfed, even though nothing about their class was changed.</P> <P>B. The people who play the classes that got buffed will, commonly, insist that their new & improved class is riddled with bugs that prevent it from actually meeting its potential.</P> <P>C. The developers are afraid to buff the other classes, thinking that if they do, they'll go too far.</P> <P>D. Meanwhile, players of the class(s) seen as "overpowered" write reams of well-argued analysis on message boards, telling other classes how to beat them, & so forth, while those players of the "weak" classes that actually know what they're doing pipe up with tips, tricks, hints, & other helpful ways to get the terminally clueless to LEARN TO FREEKIN' PLAY.</P> <P>But it's just like real life, you know? You've got people that are highly successful & make a decent living for themselves, & then you've got losers who can't hold a job or a girl/boyfriend & constantly whine about how "the system" is unfairly holding them down, & "the system" needs to be changed so that the "greedy" rich people get cut back down to size, so that everyone will be "equal".</P> <P>Bah. I'm sick past my freekin' ears of "equal". People need to learn to freekin' play.<BR></P>

[SmCaudata]

Buffing is always better than nerfing, but in some cases it is not feasible because you would have to buff too many classes to compensate which would trivialize some content.  That said, most of the time buffing is okay, or at least no nerf is needed.For instance, our inspiration decreaser launched at 15 sec per point when they changed it to a decrease.  Why did this get nerfed to 8 seconds?  Honestly, I would rather have them swap the location of en garde and inspiration on the tree so inspiration is buried and make inspiration a bigger decrease.  Assassin and rangers have a reduction on 2 skills each from 3 minutes to 2 minutes in the KoS tree.  Would a 75second decrease on one skill and a 40 second on another for 10 points not be balanced with 8 points for 2 60 second decreasers?  Look at the raw increase in damage wizards got with Manaburn.  IMO both en garde and inspiration should be set to 12sec per point and they should switch spots on the tree making the more powerful skill tougher to get to.<div></div>

[Shiverr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <P><STRONG>A much better method</STRONG></P> <P>Is to boost the classes that are weak in pvp and in pve. </P> <P>People get more class options and fun factor and variety. They start getting happy and bring in friends and more new people. </P> <P>SOE gets new customers. Beer starts falling from the sky and everyone gets to be happy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG><U>^ Wisdom.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </P> <P>Perhaps toning down the sheen of the silk from my *poofy shirt* could be done, but really..... isn't that what a *poofy shirt* is all about?</P> <P>Perhaps toning down the screams from bedded wenches could be done, but really.....isn't that what beddin' down with a swash is all about?</P> <P>Perhaps toning down the carefully melded flavors of my pimento sandwiches could be done, but really.....isn't that what a swash pimento sandwish is all about?</P> <P>Perhaps toning down the glisten from my gelled hair could be done, but really.....isn't that what swarthiness is all about?</P> <P>Can you "tone-down" the sea?  Can you tone down the sun, or the moon and its covetous stars, or the beauty of a horizon?</P> <P>I think not.</P> <P> </P> <P>Swashy simply is Swashy.  Deal with it.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[khufure]

A swashy on nektulos hit 3500 zone ext dps.  Fast pulls.<div></div>

[Rokjin]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR>A swashy on nektulos hit 3500 zone ext dps.  Fast pulls.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I call bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] on that. Inspiration doesn't refresh fast enough, unless the entire zone was pulls of 8 triple downs.

[Shagg]

PPR at L70 doesn't count... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Scotti]

Thanks for all of the awesome feedback so far folks! If anyone has anything to add please do so, any and all input will only benefit the cause :smileyhappy:

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> khufure wrote:A swashy on nektulos hit 3500 zone ext dps.  Fast pulls. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I call bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] on that. Inspiration doesn't refresh fast enough, unless the entire zone was pulls of 8 triple downs.<hr></blockquote>Hahaha.  [I cannot control my vocabulary], that was a quick bull call!  I was just trying to get rid of 5 5's too..</div>

[mythic]

<FONT color=#ffffff>Re: Should Swashes be toned down?</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All i can say to that is F Y!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we'r not overpowerd!</DIV> <DIV>just if u know how to play ur class n others dont... well...</DIV> <DIV>i think there has been enugh threats about this thing already..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>again..</DIV> <DIV>we'r not overpowered...and i dont we will ever be...!!</DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>Whilst generally prefered by players, buffing classes to match a few 'overpowered' classes is more pain then gain (sorry for the rhyme o_O)</DIV> <DIV>If ye have say 4 classes that are 'stronger' then the other 20, ye will have to buff up 20 classes and adjust all their CA's and abilities instead of those of 4, and then ye have to buff up all the mobs in every zone, and then comes the real funny, tryin to sort out the extreme unbalances that will no matter what come out of it. Devs are human, and they wont be able to anticipate every little detail wich means the risk is it'll be even more unbalanced then prior to the adjustments, wich will lead to more changes and more possible mistakes. Meanwhile, the playerbase will be in uproar 'You overbuffed the mobs, I cant solo anymore!' 'The mobs are underpowered, there isnt any challenge!' 'That class can do more dps then me!' 'That priest class can both heal and dps better then my class!' etc etc.</DIV> <DIV>Noone likes to be nerfed, but when a few classes are either stronger or weaker then rest, thats the classes that has to be adjusted, be it upwards or downwards, not the entire game. People complain about all the massive combat revamps EQ2 has had, and at the same time asking for more of them. Its not possible to adjust the majority to match the minority without ending up with a total rebalancing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AegisCrown]

as it was stated teh differences between a great swash and a good or average swash are very drastic.  but this is true for most classes.  Im proud of the fact taht swashes while a t2 dps class are nearly nessessary for raids, we provide balanced and often controlled dps while dealing massive debuffs at the same time.  ps if someone thinks we should be toned down have him watch leithe, he sucks anyway =)<div></div>

[Cocytus]

<DIV>Lies! Bah.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm the third swash on AB now dammit. I have a fabled weapon finally :p</DIV>

[liveja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cocytus wrote: I have a fabled weapon finally :p<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What'd ya get???<BR>

[AegisCrown]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cocytus wrote:<div>Lies! Bah.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm the third swash on AB now dammit. I have a fabled weapon finally :p</div><hr></blockquote>question, where do you rank me? despite being retired?</div>

[Cocytus]

<P>I don't rank you, actually...since you're retired.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'd imagine you'd still be #1 unless you've gotten rusty and Lera has you beat. :p</P> <P> </P> <P>oh, and my weapon is Axe of the Bloodbeast.</P>

[AegisCrown]

i see how it is leithe makes sense.<div></div>

[mythic]

<P>?????</P> <P>I had who beat?</P>