Potential damage?

[Sier]

<DIV>Out of the other MMOs I have played such as FFXI and WoW, two of the major, and constant game to game, variables for damage are Critical hits and Double attacks: in that these attacks proc from a single melee hit where in some cases, like the pre nerfed flurry axe from WoW you could see way more then just 2 hits or the infamous Kraken club from FFXI, However for the sake of ease of use we will reffer to such "extra attacks" as Double attacks. the third Most common variable being Haste, but as swashie seems to be fine in that deparment wit out the need for gear or weapons to help it is sort of a null point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>these variables garnished such returns melee wise that you would see a tremendous demmand for equipment, armor/charms etc, and weapons which either gave, catered to, or enhanced these two effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> for example wepons that had High delay and high damage <STRONG>were</STRONG> favored by shammans in WoW. this was because should you get a double attack with such a weapon it would be much more valuable then say a double attack from a faster weapon with a lower damage. these high delay and damage weapons also allowed for stronger Criticals which in turn added more value to double attacks as they would present the chance for even more of those large critical damage hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So finally after all of that my question to you all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would a double attack / crit build be supported by equiment endgame? i.e Str/ Wis</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is there any gear that offers +crit% or double attack%?</DIV> <DIV>I know i have a low level cloak... i forget what its called that gives a +1% crit chance, might have gotte from quest in crushbone.</DIV> <DIV>if there is such gear please post the name, at least, along with stats.</DIV> <DIV>Also any thoughts as to the viabilty of a such a build?</DIV> <DIV>From my FFXI experience once u hit 75 as a melee DPS job you went for 95%acc+ on parses and then once you hit that you would tweak gear to include crit and double attack armor/weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see my endgame knowledge for this game is limited to what i can find online as my highest toon is a lvl 42 swashie with Wis 4448 and Str 442 atm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>past here i ramble a bit but feel free to read on :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tried agi/str but found DW to be lacking compared to Wis line Double attack and had very little use for avast ye once i could start to mezz enemies even solo, invis ambush line, 2 backstabs all poke line of attacks all the other debuff attacks paralyze/ backstab or paralyze stop autoattack mezz combat invis/hate reducer and another ambush and mob is usually dead. not to mention lunge and coule... just wish coule wasnt 8 points :smileysad: it would be a nice thing to have but from what I hear it really only effects accuracy which is not a big deal for me as I rarely ever fight things tht are orange and seem to do fine on yellows, so coule is worry for more endgame then now.</DIV>

[Cocytus]

<P>There are a number of necklaces that add +crit chances, as well as cloaks, and potions, but I'm too lazy to post links.</P> <P> </P> <P>Additionally, the only +double attack that comes from gear is a bonus from McCabe and Daring armor sets, after wearing a certain number from the set in question.</P>

[Sier]

<DIV>k ty for the info, any idea if if possible to get +30%+ crit cus as it stand jus from the wis line double attack has a pretty high % to proc.</DIV>

[Foolsfolly]

+crit equipment is somewhat uncommon, and never more than 1% or 2%. Even if you tried, I very much doubt you could get more than +10% from armor alone. The only ways to signifigantly increase crit chance, and double attack too, is with AA lines and buffs from yourself and other classes. And since crits only increase your damage by a small amount, there is little point investing in them.When it comes to equipment, sadly there really isn't a whole lot of choice making to be done. Get resists for raids, get +pierce/slash skill where available, and everything else focus on str. You can get some minor benefits from wis and int, but the diffrence will be negligible even at the extremes.<div></div>

[Sier]

<DIV>I was not looking at +crit to replace any +str gear more so to replace +pierce/slashing.</DIV> <DIV>Lokking at all the post about raiding a huge chunk of swashie damage comes from AOEs and non combat arts melee hits,</DIV> <DIV>Specifically Hurricane. Thats what got me thinking of this. with Hurricane if you are double attacking and critting with a Fabled weapon regardles of your accuracy,as even with out +pierce/slash it is not that horrible, not to mention the Coule skill really adds a boost to that department, +Hurricane your do loads of damage. If at all possible if some one found it in their heart to do so play around with this idea in a raid situation, not talking about serious fights or anything but just on some of the easier raids that people might run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be very interesting to see what +crit% with Str/Wis lines and Hurricane can do.</DIV> <DIV>Would not be surprising if it did extremly well for trash mobs but lacked on bosses, but even that is not for sure as we can not know until some one tries. and I would say that +30ish% crit with the Str line AA would be fine not 30%+ Str line AA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just something all your bored high levels might wanna play around with.</DIV>

[Rokjin]

<DIV>Keep in mind Crits in EQ2 are very different then crits in WoW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the average Swashy, each 1% of Crit boosts damage by ~0.38%. So even a 10% boost in crit only increases your overall DPS by 3.8%. Meanwhile you could probably raise your accuracy up from 90 to 95% by just getting 20-30 offensive skill. STR also is a big damage booster.</DIV>

[Sier]

<DIV>hmm wouldn't the increase in damage be dependant on the weapon you use?</DIV> <DIV>From reading the boreds having a higher delay weapon helps time Auto attacking with CAs when ur fully hasted. That being said finding a one handed Fable sword with a large min/max damage difference and a huge delay 2.5 if possible or even 3... but again im still a noob so I dont know of any off the top of my head fully hasted would still leave you with a noticble delay but there is where the double attacks and crits would shine. The whole thing would depend on that weapon having a high max damage though. The concept is very much like what you would see in WoW where shammans grab twohanders with ugly delay but due to there double attacks would put out insane damage. In that WoW or FFXI there was no where near as much as 70%+ to double attack. </DIV> <DIV>The concept still holds true here, thats why you see so many people saying "you need a fabled and 8 in unencumberance to be better then the other lines."</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sieryu on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:37 AM</span>

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sieryu wrote:<BR> <DIV>hmm wouldn't the increase in damage be dependant on the weapon you use?</DIV> <DIV>From reading the boreds having a higher delay weapon helps time Auto attacking with CAs when ur fully hasted. That being said finding a one handed Fable sword with a large min/max damage difference and a huge delay 2.5 if possible or even 3... but again im still a noob so I dont know of any off the top of my head fully hasted would still leave you with a noticble delay but there is where the double attacks and crits would shine. The whole thing would depend on that weapon having a high max damage though. The concept is very much like what you would see in WoW where shammans grab twohanders with ugly delay but due to there double attacks would put out insane damage. In that WoW or FFXI there was no where near as much as 70%+ to double attack. </DIV> <DIV>The concept still holds true here, thats why you see so many people saying "you need a fabled and 8 in unencumberance to be better then the other lines."</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sieryu on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's independent of delay, it's dependent on the min/max ratio. 95% of melee weapons have a 1:3 ratio. IE: 33 min damage and 100 max damage. A few notable examples of this are The Grinning Dirk of Horror, Blackscale Maul, Vraksakin's Claw Club, and a few others.</P> <P>As for Unencumberance, it's the best raid dps because a majority of our damage in a raid setting is auto-attack. In Pedestal of the Priestess yesterday I did 1600 DPS zone-wide parse (18 minutes being in there). 42% of that was Auto-attack damage, and another 9% was Inspiration, both of which Double attack boosts considerably. And as has been written before.. 2.0 delay weapons are ideal since at 100% haste or higher, that synchronizes with our CA use. Higher delay then that will cause you to lose auto-attacks unless you wait in between CAs.</P> <P>I've done an extensive analysis on critical damage here:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=111347" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=111347</A></P> <P> </P>

[Sier]

<P>I was just looking at melee not even considering crit effect on CAs so taking the info in your post into consideration 30% crit will give roughly 16% increase in melee AND CA damage making a crit build even more viable over a +slash/pierce. another question is weather or not there is a cap on Slash/ Piercing? and if you max out those skills will your +skill add any effect? so say the cap is 300 skill will +4 slash make ur new cap 304? or does it only apply say when you have 296 +4= 300?</P> <P>also lets look at this scenario. some simple math</P> <P>you have a weapon that does 1-10 damage it will crit for 13 damage, lets just use this as its easy.</P> <P>out of 100 swing with 80% accuracy you will have 800 max potential damage with out any criticals.</P> <P>with 100% accuracy you are looking at 1000 max damage.</P> <P>now lets look at 80% accuracy with 30% crit rate you are looking 880 damage</P> <P>at 90% accuracy we see non crit max damage is 900 with crit max damage at 990</P> <P>20% crit 954</P> <P>10% crit 927</P> <P>at 95% accuracy you have a max damage of 950 non crit and with crit a max damage of 1045</P> <P>20% crit your looking at 1007</P> <P>10% crit thats 978 damage</P> <P>so the magic number is 95% accuracy with 20% crit</P> <P> </P> <P>this of course is only melee and when looking at this along with the consideration that CAs benefit from +crit, and that CAs have a relatively high accuracy, the returns on +slash and pierce skill diminishes. Also note that at 100% accuaracy the only p[tion for raising damage is criticals.</P>

[Rokjin]

<P>You should do some reading on the combat discussion forum. There's a lot of info regarding skill curves, caps, etc.</P> <P>Your example is also flawed, because most weapons will have for example 10-30 damage, and crit for 13-39, with an adjustment up to 30 if the crit is below 30.. A 1-10 weapon would do great crit damage, but is pretty much unavailable to any Rogue. Templars on the other hand can use Vraksaking War Club, which does 1-400 damage, meaning pretty much every crit is adjusted up to max. They can also easily get 100% melee crit rate.</P>

[Sier]

<DIV>Acctualy nothing is flawed.</DIV> <DIV>The example that was shown was a simple one.</DIV> <DIV>Also it shows the MAX potential damage placing every hit both with or with out crits at 100% damage.</DIV> <DIV>I used 1-10 simply because its easy to do the math, Thus the figures of 800 damage for 80% accuracy etc.</DIV> <DIV>Perhaps I should have just said a weapon with a damage of 10, but then you would have said that was flawed 8p.</DIV> <DIV>My main point in the post was that after 95% accuracy you get less returns for increasing accuracy then you do for increasing critical hit %.</DIV> <DIV>Which was also somthing I stated in my original post, how in other MMOs at endgame once 95% accuracy is achieved emphasis is placed on increasing max damage, namely through increase in crit percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This also plays into the importance of the WIS line for swashies... even though some people advocate Agi over it.</DIV>

[mayhem111]

I'm not sure how high you can acutally get your hit ratio especially against most mobs you fight end game.  With alot of 74 and 75 lvl mobs its hard to hit alot of the time.  When we fight mobs like tarinax and vyemm I have to hit swinders luck or I can see alot of misses in there.   And how high can we get the crit % up to.   I think its like 14-15 % with aa and I don't think equipment bonuses stack.  So your stuck at 16-18% unless ya get some more buffs from other players.  Str and dps and haste bonuses are the biggest increasers of damage we can up.

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sieryu wrote:<BR> <DIV>Acctualy nothing is flawed.</DIV> <DIV>The example that was shown was a simple one.</DIV> <DIV>Also it shows the MAX potential damage placing every hit both with or with out crits at 100% damage.</DIV> <DIV>I used 1-10 simply because its easy to do the math, Thus the figures of 800 damage for 80% accuracy etc.</DIV> <DIV>Perhaps I should have just said a weapon with a damage of 10, but then you would have said that was flawed 8p.</DIV> <DIV>My main point in the post was that after 95% accuracy you get less returns for increasing accuracy then you do for increasing critical hit %.</DIV> <DIV>Which was also somthing I stated in my original post, how in other MMOs at endgame once 95% accuracy is achieved emphasis is placed on increasing max damage, namely through increase in crit percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This also plays into the importance of the WIS line for swashies... even though some people advocate Agi over it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You can't show something with a 'simple' example that does not reflect the conditions you are trying to show something for. You can't conclude you get less returns from increasing accuracy after 95% in general, when your using a 1:10 ratio weapon as your example. Any conclusion (false or correct) you make from that, would ONLY apply to 1:10 ratio weapons.</P> <P>That's like saying that for that 1:10 ratio weapon, the damage bonus you get per % of crit is 0.85%, and then saying that all weapons get 0.85% bonus damage per % of crit.</P> <P>Not to even mention you don't give any basis for your 95% accuracy, 20% crit damage numbers being 'magic'. Duh, of course you would get more damage from 95% accuracy and 20% crit then you would get with 90% accuracy. And guess what, you get more damage from 96% accuracy and 20% crit then you get from 95% accuracy and 20% crit. SHOCKING!</P> <P><STRONG>I can tell you however FOR SURE that 96% accuracy and 20% crit will give you more damage then 95% accuracy and 21% crit. ALWAYS. Because Crits overall will always be worth less then 1% more damage per 1% crit for Swashbucklers. Here is the proof.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>The largest ratio of auto-attack to CAs in normal combat will never be greater then 75% auto-attack, 25% CA damage for a Rogue. Much more common in fact is 25% auto-attack and 75% CA damage. Even for max auto-attack specced Swashbucklers like me and loooong fights like the Harla Dar clearing, it will not surpass 50/50. Let's take 75% auto-attack and 25% CA damage though just to show you it's impossible even under those extremely favorable conditions.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>That 25% of CA damage only gets a 0.3% boost in damage per 1% of crit. Now even with the best possible weapon in existance in EQ2, Vraksakin War Club (which Rogues can't use anyways), a huge 1:404 ratio (the curve goes flat pretty fast past 1:10, but I'll use this to prove to you), gives you a 1.06% damage boost return per 1% crit. Yes, if the only thing you did is auto-attack with this weapon, then you would get a little bit more then 1% damage return for your 1% of crit. However, Rogues even in the best case for crits, will have the 75/25 auto-attack to CA ratio I mentioned above.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>So how much damage boost is with that insane ratio? Easy. We know 25% of our damage (CAs) gets a 0.3% boost per point of crit, and 75% of our damage gets a best case 1.06% damage boost (ONLY IN THE CASE OF USING A 1:404 RATIO WEAPON WHICH WE CANNOT ACTUALLY USE...). So, then, damage boost for 1% of crit = (25% * ( 1% * 30%) + 75% * ( 1% * 106%)) * 100 = 0.87%.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>So even in one of the best possible cases, that Rogues cannot even achieve, 1% crit is only worth 0.87% damage boost. This stands independent of any other factors like accuracy. Any damage that you do, will be boost 0.87% per 1% crit.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>A much more realistic example is of a rogue with a 1:4 ratio weapon (Like the weapons from Venekor that are considered to be 2nd best in existence currently for a Rogue), which gives almost exactly a 0.67% boost in damage per crit, along with a much more realistic 33/67 ratio of 33% auto-attack damage to 67% CA damage. In that case.. 1% of crit = (67% * (1% * 30%) + 33% * (1% * 67%)) * 100 = 0.42% boost per crit.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>So in a much more realistic case, for a WIS specced Swashbuckler, we receive only a 0.42% boost in our damage per 1% of crit. Thus, 1% accuracy, which linearly increases our damage by 1%, is never worth less then 1% of crit, which linearly increases our damage by ~0.42% or LESS.</STRONG></P> <P>You have also not bothered to look into at all into the diminishing returns curve for skill increases. No one has yet even quantified how much +skill gives how much +to hit % on a particular level of mob. It is quite possible that at high levels of skill, particularly against level 75 mobs, it is easier to get 2% or more of crit then it is to get 1% accuracy. However that has not yet been analyzed because frankly, getting good data against raid mobs is pretty much impossible due to all the factors that cannot be controlled. No one really knows how much +accuracy % a certain amount of +skill gives you.</P> <P>I've tried to do analysis on this, making an assumption that the % of avoidance we get from increasing our defensive skills scales about the same way that the % of accuracy we get from increasing our offensive skills. In that case, as an example, turning off Defensive stance drops my base avoidance from 46.5% to 42%. A drop of 4.5% due to taking away 29 defense skill. If we translate that to to-hit, we can make a guess that 10 offensive skill ~= 1.55% accuracy. Considering much more conservatively, we can probably assume that 10 offensive skill ~= 1% accuracy. Possibly less at higher levels of curve, and depending on the mob. That is a best guess, and is for sure not definite, especially considering the assumption that it's based on could be horribly wrong.</P> <P>I'm not trying to insult you particularly, but it seems to me like your just pulling stuff randomly based on your experience in other games which have different systems and trying to make conclusive statements, without doing any research at all on it and doing a meaningful analysis. I don't mind people challenging the mechanics analysis I have done or bringing new data to the table. I do mind someone pulling things out of thin air and making statements based on nothing.<BR></P>

[Sier]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>You can't show something with a 'simple' example that does not reflect the conditions you are trying to show something for. You can't conclude you get less returns from increasing accuracy after 95% in general, when your using a 1:10 ratio weapon as your example. Any conclusion (false or correct) you make from that, would ONLY apply to 1:10 ratio weapons.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Using a 1/3 ratio the idea still holds. 33-99 damage only worrying about </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>MAX</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> damage it places the crit figure at  128.7, and the non crit at 99... to avoid decimal i used a nice number like 10 which makes the crit 13. The ratio is unimportant when the only thing being looked at is the maximum damage ie 99 or 10.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Not to even mention you don't give any basis for your 95% accuracy, 20% crit damage numbers being 'magic'. Duh, of course you would get more damage from 95% accuracy and 20% crit then you would get with 90% accuracy. And guess what, you get more damage from 96% accuracy and 20% crit then you get from 95% accuracy and 20% crit. SHOCKING!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>if you bother to look at the numbers the "Magic" come in the form of breaking the maximum possible damage with just accuracy gear which in the example with 100% accuracy would have been 1000 using 20% crit with 95% accuracy you maxed out damage at </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>1007</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> . </FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>I can tell you however FOR SURE that 96% accuracy and 20% crit will give you more damage then 95% accuracy and 21% crit. ALWAYS. Because Crits overall will always be worth less then 1% more damage per 1% crit for Swashbucklers. Here is the proof.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>The largest ratio of auto-attack to CAs in normal combat will never be greater then 75% auto-attack, 25% CA damage for a Rogue. Much more common in fact is 25% auto-attack and 75% CA damage. Even for max auto-attack specced Swashbucklers like me and loooong fights like the Harla Dar clearing, it will not surpass 50/50. Let's take 75% auto-attack and 25% CA damage though just to show you it's impossible even under those extremely favorable conditions.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>That 25% of CA damage only gets a 0.3% boost in damage per 1% of crit. Now even with the best possible weapon in existence in EQ2, Vraksakin War Club (which Rogues can't use anyways), a huge 1:404 ratio (the curve goes flat pretty fast past 1:10, but I'll use this to prove to you), gives you a 1.06% damage boost return per 1% crit. Yes, if the only thing you did is auto-attack with this weapon, then you would get a little bit more then 1% damage return for your 1% of crit. However, Rogues even in the best case for crits, will have the 75/25 auto-attack to CA ratio I mentioned above.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>So how much damage boost is with that insane ratio? Easy. We know 25% of our damage (CAs) gets a 0.3% boost per point of crit, and 75% of our damage gets a best case 1.06% damage boost (ONLY IN THE CASE OF USING A 1:404 RATIO WEAPON WHICH WE CANNOT ACTUALLY USE...). So, then, damage boost for 1% of crit = (25% * ( 1% * 30%) + 75% * ( 1% * 106%)) * 100 = 0.87%.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>So even in one of the best possible cases, that Rogues cannot even achieve, 1% crit is only worth 0.87% damage boost. This stands independent of any other factors like accuracy. Any damage that you do, will be boost 0.87% per 1% crit. </FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>Never said anything about CAs but if you must talk of CAs near the cap in weapon skill due to the nature of CAs and the fact that they have a higher accuracy then Auto attacks crits% increase does more for CAs then does increases in accuracy. Also as you should well know by simply reading through the combat forums there is a lot of concern with accuracy when raiding as the new combat system has made accuracy a much higher priority then in previous times never the less I have yet to see some one boasting about how they had 96%+ accuracy in a high end raid and state that he was not decked out in some of the most rare/hardest gear to obtain not to mention cost in time/plat. But of course I can be wrong and I am sure someone will catch me on it if I am.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Sier]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>You have also not bothered to look into at all into the diminishing returns curve for skill increases. No one has yet even quantified how much +skill gives how much +to hit % on a particular level of mob. It is quite possible that at high levels of skill, particularly against level 75 mobs, it is easier to get 2% or more of crit then it is to get 1% accuracy. However that has not yet been analyzed because frankly, getting good data against raid mobs is pretty much impossible due to all the factors that cannot be controlled. No one really knows how much +accuracy % a certain amount of +skill gives you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I've tried to do analysis on this, making an assumption that the % of avoidance we get from increasing our defensive skills scales about the same way that the % of accuracy we get from increasing our offensive skills. In that case, as an example, turning off Defensive stance drops my base avoidance from 46.5% to 42%. A drop of 4.5% due to taking away 29 defense skill. If we translate that to to-hit, we can make a guess that 10 offensive skill ~= 1.55% accuracy. Considering much more conservatively, we can probably assume that 10 offensive skill ~= 1% accuracy. Possibly less at higher levels of curve, and depending on the mob. That is a best guess, and is for sure not definite, especially considering the assumption that it's based on could be horribly wrong.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT></P> <P>again you fail to read through my post or at least take in what it is I am saying. Crit increases in value especially after 95% accuracy, if it can be obtained, because for every +point in skill you gain it has Diminishing returns, I am surprised that you would make such a statement then go and repeat the exact same thing you would try to correct me on. it is far more viable and probably far more cheaper/ easier to push for crit% increase even up to or near 30% to get greater returns then adding 10 or even 30 points of +skill especially seeing as the maximum gain after 95% accuracy you can hope to see in damage is... <FONT color=#ff0000>5%</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> again something that as of yet seems impossible, because as in many other MMOs 100% accuracy simply is non existent and 95% is the best you can hope for, Though you may not agree Sony has brought EQ2 in line with other MMOs especially WoW . Thus where before thing like 100% accuracy may have existed I'm new to the game so I dont don't, I doubt that it will be present again. Also should 100% accuracy be attainable, fine so be it, get 100% accuracy but also get +crit%  because no matter what way you cut it <FONT color=#ffff00>critical hits allow you to go past the damage cap, accuracy simply will only allow you to reach it</FONT>. </FONT></P> <P>on a side note since it is established that Accuracy is important, and hopefully that crit is almost as important then it would be worth noting that Str/Wis is the way to go because High Accuracy+ Moderate Critical rates+ Double attacks= more damage.</P> <P>the wis lines Coule help the accuracy department and of course Double attacks increases the possibility for critical hit rates, all of which are supported by high accuracy.</P></DIV>

[dday]

I hear talk about timing your CA's so that it doesn't delay your Auto Attacks. Whats this all about? Should you wait a second between each CA to allow your AA to hit a few times or did I miss something?I was under the impression that CA's didn't delay AA, but thinking I am wrong right about now.Answers?<div></div>

[Sier]

<DIV>yeah you have to time your CAs inbetween AAs otherwise you end up delaying them.</DIV>

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sieryu wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Using a 1/3 ratio the idea still holds. 33-99 damage only worrying about </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>MAX</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> damage it places the crit figure at  128.7, and the non crit at 99... to avoid decimal i used a nice number like 10 which makes the crit 13. The ratio is unimportant when the only thing being looked at is the maximum damage ie 99 or 10.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>if you bother to look at the numbers the "Magic" come in the form of breaking the maximum possible damage with just accuracy gear which in the example with 100% accuracy would have been 1000 using 20% crit with 95% accuracy you maxed out damage at </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>1007</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> . </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century size=2>Never said anything about CAs but if you must talk of CAs near the cap in weapon skill due to the nature of CAs and the fact that they have a higher accuracy then Auto attacks crits% increase does more for CAs then does increases in accuracy. Also as you should well know by simply reading through the combat forums there is a lot of concern with accuracy when raiding as the new combat system has made accuracy a much higher priority then in previous times never the less I have yet to see some one boasting about how they had 96%+ accuracy in a high end raid and state that he was not decked out in some of the most rare/hardest gear to obtain not to mention cost in time/plat. But of course I can be wrong and I am sure someone will catch me on it if I am.</FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But if your only looking at max damage, your not actually looking at how crit works. You are looking at the best possible case, where every crit is max damage * 1.3. So your example is only applicable to the best possible case. </P> <P>Okay... Fair enough.. but that only shows that at 95% accuracy, it's better to get 20% crit, in your ideal every crit is max damage *1.3 situation. Real situations will put most Swashbucklers at 90-95% accuracy, and 10-20% crit, depending on group.. Not to mention critical damage gear is very rare, and I have shown has a fairly small effect.<BR></P> <P>Yeah.. accuracy on high end raids sucks.. However you don't seem to realize that very few pieces of gear have crit increase attached to them. When they do, it is negligible, meaning gear is not chosen based on whether it has crit or not.</P>

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sieryu wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>again you fail to read through my post or at least take in what it is I am saying. Crit increases in value especially after 95% accuracy, if it can be obtained, because for every +point in skill you gain it has Diminishing returns, I am surprised that you would make such a statement then go and repeat the exact same thing you would try to correct me on. it is far more viable and probably far more cheaper/ easier to push for crit% increase even up to or near 30% to get greater returns then adding 10 or even 30 points of +skill especially seeing as the maximum gain after 95% accuracy you can hope to see in damage is... <FONT color=#ff0000>5%</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> again something that as of yet seems impossible, because as in many other MMOs 100% accuracy simply is non existent and 95% is the best you can hope for, Though you may not agree Sony has brought EQ2 in line with other MMOs especially WoW . Thus where before thing like 100% accuracy may have existed I'm new to the game so I dont don't, I doubt that it will be present again. Also should 100% accuracy be attainable, fine so be it, get 100% accuracy but also get +crit%  because no matter what way you cut it <FONT color=#ffff00>critical hits allow you to go past the damage cap, accuracy simply will only allow you to reach it</FONT>. </FONT></P> <P>on a side note since it is established that Accuracy is important, and hopefully that crit is almost as important then it would be worth noting that Str/Wis is the way to go because High Accuracy+ Moderate Critical rates+ Double attacks= more damage.</P> <P>the wis lines Coule help the accuracy department and of course Double attacks increases the possibility for critical hit rates, all of which are supported by high accuracy.<BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think we agree in conclusion, but I disagree with your method of arriving at it.. Crit value does not increase, the value of +skill decreases. That's where the difference comes in though. I am aware of what +crit gear there is.. It's pathetically small. At most you could hope for +10% crit in total from gear, by sacrificing a lot of better equipment, making you weaker.</P> <P>If you read my AA analysis post, you'll see I've pretty much arrived at the same conclusion, though with actual analysis and number crunching.<BR></P>

[Sier]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I think we agree in conclusion, but I disagree with your method of arriving at it.. Crit value does not increase, the value of +skill decreases. That's where the difference comes in though. I am aware of what +crit gear there is.. It's pathetically small. At most you could hope for +10% crit in total from gear, by sacrificing a lot of better equipment, making you weaker.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>If you read my AA analysis post, you'll see I've pretty much arrived at the same conclusion, though with actual analysis and number crunching.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>Ever watch Samurai Champloo, two characters who are fundamentaly different in their approach to fighting. However in the end the enemies they battle end up hurting/ dead, btw u can be mugen cus Jin is badass and I wear glasses :smileytongue:</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>But on a more serious note I have 0 knowledge on gear drops as unlike other MMOs the sites that center around EQ2 have horrid item databases TT Hammer Alla etc are by either level, skill type or item type. </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>I tried to look through all the gear for +crit%... it was a painful experience that was getting no where extremly slowly.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>So then it comes down to the forum and every one posting any item they may know of with +crit and its stats, or at least the name of it so I can easily search it.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>Dealing with the replacing better gear for +crit% not really, I see people speaking on these forum about +skill and drooling over it. I am not saying give up str or anything like that what I am saying is give up some of that +skill gear people are saying is the end all and be all of endgame life. The hat with +5skill how about a diff hat with +1% crit or those earring with +? skill change it up make at least one if not both +crit. The clear debate here is between +skill and +crit%. Also mayhaps Agi cus besides power and avoidance does it do anything else? give us better damage on CAs increase our hate reduction abilities?</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>but deffinatly do not forgo +str or somthing for +crit%, unless you hit the str cap that is :smileytongue:</FONT></FONT></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sieryu on <span class=date_text>01-15-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 AM</span>