Raiding Swash

[Xerxess]

<div></div>I went to AoA for the first time last night and I thought I was doing good but when they showed parse I was below a monk, assiasan and a couple of rangers...is that bad? If it is I just can't seem to figure out what im doing wrong...<div></div>

[Keldo]

<P>What was your group makeup?  That is a large part of your potential DPS.  AoA is an AE dream - so Hurricane and your 2 AE should allow you to win parses (especially over a monk) unless you simply had no buffs.  Make sure you are using GM Caustic at all times, as well.</P> <P>At 100 haste / 100 dps, 510 str, GM caustic and WIS line with a good fabled 1h, you are in position to beat most classes in any AE situation.  The only classes that have a shot to beat you are Conj, Nec, Wiz for the most part.  On single target, your biggest foe is likely the assassin, who will beat you most of the time.  You have to work a lot harder to win single target parses.</P>

[AegisCrown]

definately review group build up and was it your first time raiding? if so youll get used to figuring out ways to boost your dps.  <div></div>

[Xerxess]

I see...our group make up was a Guardian, Assasian, Mystic, Templar, Warden, and Me the Swasy..Also im using Grizzfaz dagger and Essenia blade from SoS quest...<div></div>

[Keldo]

<DIV>Well there is your prob - that group nets you exactly 0 worthwhile offensive buffs.</DIV>

[Cocytus]

I'm generally in the top 2-3 even without worthwile dps boosts with my raid alliance. Were you using Inspiration, Ruthless Cunning, Perfect Finesse, or En Garde?

[mikemastermikeymike]

I never lose to wizzys on the parse its all ways the assasin then me unless im in a good group are assasin parses 2k on the norm in all the x4 zones... besides nameds some times i pull out on top of named encounters.

[Cocytus]

Generally it's either me or my ranger friend on top, though it does sound like the case might be that he's not using inspiration, or maybe has hurricane off.

[mikemastermikeymike]

<DIV>Do you guys not have a good assasin?</DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>Get good poison and a good group and ye'll spank most of the raid in DPS, ye lose sooo much damage on a group like the one ye were in. Ive been in groups similar to that one due to turnout for raid and dropped easily 500 dps on it zonewide, stuff like +dps and +haste is bread and butter for us (althou its a bit annoying when ye get persona window up at times to see what to cast before inspiration and see yer 100/100 thus making finesse and ruthless useless :p )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xerxess]

Hmmm Yeah I didn't have hurricane on and I used inspiration very little because im not really use to raiding...I usaully fight in groups a lot so I guess I was afraid of stealing aggro hehe<div></div>

[Mortal]

Don't be afraid of stealing aggro, 99.9% of fights you will be in, pulling aggro means you'll die(when you get geared you'll live) and the fight will continue.   When I pull aggro on raids nowadays, most of the time I just tank it 'til the MT can get it back lol.  4500 mit ftw =pAs for my experience in raids, I don't try to top the parse anymore.  I consistanly end up in the top 5 of our parses behind out Wiz, Assassin, Nec and other swashy.  Partly might be that I went Str/Wis so i could use Traumatic Swipe still.  I prolly could get back to being on the top with the other swashy we have, but my computer is the crap and I lag to much LOL.BTW, the 0.1% of the fights that you don't want to pull aggro include:  Any mob that has mem-wipe and or HUGE frontal.  Lord Vyemm and Tarinax have really bad frontal's and pulling aggro when its NOT a mem-wipe is a nono.  Vilucidae has a stance where he ripostes like 85% and another where he frontals auto attack and double attacks like 80%.<div></div>

[Cocytus]

Yeah, that's the problem then. Hurricane and inspiration are *the* bread and butter.

[BenDJ]

I usually on the top 5 on the parse list on my raid without relying on others' haste/dps buffs (around 1k~1.2k dps). And that's without using my 30s haste/dps buffs or caustic poison (usually using mental breach to maintain power to dps). Most of my DPS comes from my crits (i hit around 900-1400 dmg autoattack crit). Im usually in a group that buffs my crit% and a little bit of haste. Having a good 1hander with a high damage range helps w/ crits and combine that w/ 100% haste makes it even better. And when you add in Inspiration and haste/dps buffs and you can go up to 1.7k dps or more on some mobs.<div></div>

[Atmosphear1993]

<P>Depends on many different things:</P> <P>-Group Make Up</P> <P>- Type of Encounter (multi-targets usually mean more dps for me)</P> <P>- Whether the encounter has knockback or AoE's that will require you to back out.</P> <P>-Various other things.</P> <P>Our dps is all well and good.  But there is always typically another class that will be able to dps better than us.  If you don't have the right group make up, your dps will be horribly low sometimes.</P>

[SageGaspar]

If the monk and rangers in the other group were getting some decent buffs, they could be competitive. In AoA though you should be able to kill them with hurricane no matter what your support is like. It'll take you a while to feel out aggro, but if you're going to pull aggro anywhere, AoA is the place to do it, stuff in there is not terribly hard. Inspiration is a tough one to feel out and when you can drop it really depends on who's tanking for you. I've been in raids with sketchy aggro and it's always exciting trying to push it to the limit without stealing aggro, hehe. Lots of eluding with a lie low here and there.You were in a group with a guardian and a couple priests though, which I assume was a tank group -- put your aggro transfer on the tank, hell, put on the aggro reducing poison if you want to, and there's no way in hell you're going to be pulling aggro off a competent tank. If you pull aggro with that setup, one of ya is doing something terribly wrong, hehe.<div></div>

[A 12 Gauge 007]

<P>You should also be looking into your gear and AA line. Wisdom is where is at. Get a 1her and go wis. Get Acrylia rings they proc both haste and DPS mods. Ruthless Cunning is the most under used swashy buff in the game... Ive meet swashys that didnt even know it exsists. DT access is nice to make sure your procs push you to max haste but not needed. adpIIIs and masters get em trust me. Classes you wanna group with Monks Zerkers Wizards Mages Templars Troubs.</P> <P>Perfect group for me</P> <P>Coercer DPS buff</P> <P>Templar DPS buff</P> <P>Monk Haste buff</P> <P>Me</P> <P>Wizard/Mage Phoenixblade or Emberseed</P> <P>Any other DPS class usually Assassin in my guild.</P> <P>With this setup I average 1300dps as does the Assassin. When we go all out its 2k+ each.</P> <P>Hope this helps</P>

[Atmosphear1993]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> A 12 Gauge 007 wrote:<BR> <P>Ruthless Cunning is the most under used swashy buff in the game...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree to that!  It is from Bloodlines, picked it up when Bloodlines came out.  If you weren't around during that time you might miss it if you don't check your CAs on a website.</P> <P>Too bad I can't find anyone with the recipe to make the Adept III, nevermind finding a Master of it.<BR></P>

[Gerdos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> A 12 Gauge 007 wrote:<BR> <P>You should also be looking into your gear and AA line. Wisdom is where is at. Get a 1her and go wis. Get Acrylia rings they proc both haste and DPS mods. Ruthless Cunning is the most under used swashy buff in the game... Ive meet swashys that didnt even know it exsists. DT access is nice to make sure your procs push you to max haste but not needed. adpIIIs and masters get em trust me. Classes you wanna group with Monks Zerkers Wizards Mages <STRONG><U>Templars</U></STRONG> Troubs.</P> <P>Perfect group for me</P> <P>Coercer DPS buff</P> <P><STRONG><U>Templar DPS buff</U></STRONG></P> <P>Monk Haste buff</P> <P>Me</P> <P>Wizard/Mage Phoenixblade or Emberseed</P> <P>Any other DPS class usually Assassin in my guild.</P> <P>With this setup I average 1300dps as does the Assassin. When we go all out its 2k+ each.</P> <P>Hope this helps</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why templars??   You mean inquisitors??</P> <P> </P>

[A 12 Gauge 007]

Yes Inq... I stand corrected.

[mikemastermikeymike]

<DIV> <P>Why a monk when you could have a dirge and why not a fury my perfect group would problly be......</P> <P>Dirge </P> <P>Fury</P> <P>Corcer</P> <P>Inq</P> <P>conji </P> <P>me</P> <P>lol this like never ever ever happens but it would own for me :smileyvery-happy:</P></DIV>

[Luk]

<div><blockquote><hr>mikemastermikeymike wrote:<div> <p>Why a monk when you could have a dirge and why not a fury my perfect group would problly be......</p> <p>Dirge </p> <p>Fury</p> <p>Corcer</p> <p>Inq</p> <p>conji </p> <p>me</p> <p>lol this like never ever ever happens but it would own for me :smileyvery-happy:</p></div><hr></blockquote>That would way over stack you on both haste and DPS, you would be much better off dropping the coercer and fury, replace with a zerka (haste/dps and STR buff) and wizard (STR/INT buff and Phoenix Blade), you would still be at 100 haste, near 100 DPS and have additional damage procs. On shorter fights, SK's are nice with Death March (DPS and INT buff).Dirge DPS buff song can provide 42% at master with one of their AA lines, 26% from Inqui, 30%ish from Zerka puts you at high 90's, 74% from the coercer would be wasted, and as nice as it is for bursts, Agitate just doesn't have the duration/proc rate to be up all the time for sustained DPS.I would love to see where my DPS ended up with this set up, I've hit 1850 in a very non optimal group (Assassin, Troubie, Wizard, Templar, Warlock and me)</div>

[Atmosphear1993]

<DIV>Do you think Swashy's are inferior to Brigands on raids?  </DIV>

[Luk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Atmosphear1993 wrote:<div>Do you think Swashy's are inferior to Brigands on raids?  </div><hr></blockquote>Brigs and Swashies, even though both are rogues are completely different and both have equal (though different) usefulness. A raid can be completed with neither or either, but will be easier with both.</div>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Atmosphear1993 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> A 12 Gauge 007 wrote:<BR> <P>Ruthless Cunning is the most under used swashy buff in the game...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree to that!  It is from Bloodlines, picked it up when Bloodlines came out.  If you weren't around during that time you might miss it if you don't check your CAs on a website.</P> <P>Too bad I can't find anyone with the recipe to make the Adept III, nevermind finding a Master of it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As far as I know there *is* no master version of it, however, if you are far enough yourself in the questline, you can buy the advanced book from the merchant there (Advanced Jeweler's study of Ancient K'Lorn Magic) and give it to a jeweler along with the loam and they can combine it for you, as its not no-trade or somethin silly like that. 41% on adept3 vs 31% on app4 makes the run pay off well. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Ildarus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>I would love to see where my DPS ended up with this set up, I've hit 1850 in a very non optimal group (Assassin, Troubie, Wizard, Templar, Warlock and me)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How are you doing that 1850?? I have tried the Wisdom line and I just can't get up over 1,000 consistently. I have had parses go over 1,000 on extDPS, but it doesn't happen often, usually stick right around 850-900. It doesn't seem to matter if I am using Wisdom/Strength or Strength/Agility. All my ability are Adept III or higher. I just can't seem to break this. Our Brigand is constently doing around 1100-1200 and I know as a Swashy I should be beating him or at least we should be jocking for DPS.</P> <P>I here some people talking about 1600-2000 DPS and I sometimes wonder if they are looking at DPS instead of extDPS on the ACT Parser. Because I have seen some of my straight DPS at 1600, but my extDPS was at 900.</P>

[Atmosphear1993]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Atmosphear1993 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Do you think Swashy's are inferior to Brigands on raids?  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Brigs and Swashies, even though both are rogues are completely different and both have equal (though different) usefulness. A raid can be completed with neither or either, but will be easier with both.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Seems like lately that there is a push to betray to brigand due to the view that Swashies are less useful and can be replaced by another class.  There is a bigger post about the issue in the Zones and Population forum that I recently came across.  The issue is starting to bum me out about my class.

[Davhanama]

<DIV>I know there are people betraying to Brigand.  I for one love my swashy and feel that the combination of a swashy and brigand in a group/raid is better than just one by itself.  I do not know whatit is like to solo with a brigand, but feel that swashys do well when soloing.  If you think betraying will make you happy..just do it.  But do it because you want to..not because others have done it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way..enjoy the game!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Atmosphear1993]

Well there is no way I will be betraying to Brigand to loose all of my Masters and relic gear, not to mention I had the mindset of playing a Swash well before the game came out.  I rather create a new character with a desirable class for a raid.  Or move onto something more interesting.  I hope though, that EoF will remedy some of the issues related to the role of a Swashy during raids.

[Luk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ildarus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Licit wrote: <div>I would love to see where my DPS ended up with this set up, I've hit 1850 in a very non optimal group (Assassin, Troubie, Wizard, Templar, Warlock and me)</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>How are you doing that 1850?? I have tried the Wisdom line and I just can't get up over 1,000 consistently. I have had parses go over 1,000 on extDPS, but it doesn't happen often, usually stick right around 850-900. It doesn't seem to matter if I am using Wisdom/Strength or Strength/Agility. All my ability are Adept III or higher. I just can't seem to break this. Our Brigand is constently doing around 1100-1200 and I know as a Swashy I should be beating him or at least we should be jocking for DPS.</p> <p>I here some people talking about 1600-2000 DPS and I sometimes wonder if they are looking at DPS instead of extDPS on the ACT Parser. Because I have seen some of my straight DPS at 1600, but my extDPS was at 900.</p><hr></blockquote>I am very very good.Alot has to do with timing, mostly its skill quality and equipment quality, most of my CA's are master (only tier 6 ones are at adept 3 with 3 previous tier masters cause there was too little difference to bother upgrading)Picking the best weapon for you is essential, I use an Ancient Velium Rapier most of the time now over my Frostwrath because it does most overall damage (don't know why cause its a lower damage rating weapon)Oh and I always use ext DPS in ACT</div>

[Davhanama]

<DIV>Was not implying that you wanted to betray..sorry if I gave that impression.  I agree I would hate to lose all my gear and skills also.  I too knew I would be playing a swashy the moment I saw the class description.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cocytus]

I'm glad. Let them betray. Too many [Removed for Content] swashies on my server atm anyway, and 80% of them don't know how to play the class, despite being 70. :p

[ShiftySands]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ildarus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>I would love to see where my DPS ended up with this set up, I've hit 1850 in a very non optimal group (Assassin, Troubie, Wizard, Templar, Warlock and me)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How are you doing that 1850?? I have tried the Wisdom line and I just can't get up over 1,000 consistently. I have had parses go over 1,000 on extDPS, but it doesn't happen often, usually stick right around 850-900. It doesn't seem to matter if I am using Wisdom/Strength or Strength/Agility. All my ability are Adept III or higher. I just can't seem to break this. Our Brigand is constently doing around 1100-1200 and I know as a Swashy I should be beating him or at least we should be jocking for DPS.</P> <P>I here some people talking about 1600-2000 DPS and I sometimes wonder if they are looking at DPS instead of extDPS on the ACT Parser. Because I have seen some of my straight DPS at 1600, but my extDPS was at 900.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG>I am very very good.</STRONG><BR><BR>Alot has to do with timing, mostly its skill quality and equipment quality, most of my CA's are master (only tier 6 ones are at adept 3 with 3 previous tier masters cause there was too little difference to bother upgrading)<BR><BR>Picking the best weapon for you is essential, I use an Ancient Velium Rapier most of the time now over my Frostwrath because it does most overall damage (don't know why cause its a lower damage rating weapon)<BR><BR>Oh and I always use ext DPS in ACT<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Way to sound like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR>

[Neumann]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShiftySands wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ildarus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>I would love to see where my DPS ended up with this set up, I've hit 1850 in a very non optimal group (Assassin, Troubie, Wizard, Templar, Warlock and me)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How are you doing that 1850?? I have tried the Wisdom line and I just can't get up over 1,000 consistently. I have had parses go over 1,000 on extDPS, but it doesn't happen often, usually stick right around 850-900. It doesn't seem to matter if I am using Wisdom/Strength or Strength/Agility. All my ability are Adept III or higher. I just can't seem to break this. Our Brigand is constently doing around 1100-1200 and I know as a Swashy I should be beating him or at least we should be jocking for DPS.</P> <P>I here some people talking about 1600-2000 DPS and I sometimes wonder if they are looking at DPS instead of extDPS on the ACT Parser. Because I have seen some of my straight DPS at 1600, but my extDPS was at 900.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG>I am very very good.</STRONG><BR><BR>Alot has to do with timing, mostly its skill quality and equipment quality, most of my CA's are master (only tier 6 ones are at adept 3 with 3 previous tier masters cause there was too little difference to bother upgrading)<BR><BR>Picking the best weapon for you is essential, I use an Ancient Velium Rapier most of the time now over my Frostwrath because it does most overall damage (don't know why cause its a lower damage rating weapon)<BR><BR>Oh and I always use ext DPS in ACT<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Way to sound like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>assissian in swashie forums...

[Luk]

<div><blockquote><hr>ShiftySands wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Licit wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Ildarus wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Licit wrote: <div>I would love to see where my DPS ended up with this set up, I've hit 1850 in a very non optimal group (Assassin, Troubie, Wizard, Templar, Warlock and me)</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>How are you doing that 1850?? I have tried the Wisdom line and I just can't get up over 1,000 consistently. I have had parses go over 1,000 on extDPS, but it doesn't happen often, usually stick right around 850-900. It doesn't seem to matter if I am using Wisdom/Strength or Strength/Agility. All my ability are Adept III or higher. I just can't seem to break this. Our Brigand is constently doing around 1100-1200 and I know as a Swashy I should be beating him or at least we should be jocking for DPS.</p> <p>I here some people talking about 1600-2000 DPS and I sometimes wonder if they are looking at DPS instead of extDPS on the ACT Parser. Because I have seen some of my straight DPS at 1600, but my extDPS was at 900.</p> <hr> </blockquote><strong>I am very very good.</strong>Alot has to do with timing, mostly its skill quality and equipment quality, most of my CA's are master (only tier 6 ones are at adept 3 with 3 previous tier masters cause there was too little difference to bother upgrading)Picking the best weapon for you is essential, I use an Ancient Velium Rapier most of the time now over my Frostwrath because it does most overall damage (don't know why cause its a lower damage rating weapon)Oh and I always use ext DPS in ACT</div> <hr> </blockquote>Way to sound like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<hr></blockquote>Its hard being this good, takes alot of work, alot of time and you have to deal with ALOT of jealousy</div>

[Ghartan]

A lot of good suggestions here ... best being the impact your group members have on your performance through group buffs.I would also add that a lot also depends on the quality of the Main Tank and casters. I find my DPS drops like a rock if the Main Tank can't hold the mob in a single spot and I have to sprint all over the place looking for the target's back.If you follow the advise given here (get the right AA line, get a good weapon and get better group members), then all you'll need to worry about is if the MT can hold the mobs still.<span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Drevva]

Licit,You really found the velium weapon to give you higher dps?  I've been desparately hoping to see a one hander drop (frostwrath or one of the axes in HoS).  I'll be really bummed if I finally get one and it doesn't improve my dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.I've pondered switching to DW  of late because I keep seeing these really nice DW weapons drop and so far our raid group has seen 1  one hander drop, compared with about 15 DWers.  ah well, paitience I guess.Drevva

[Luk]

<div></div>I had a look into this last night and am pretty sure its cause my basic gear setup has +16 piercing (Relic Hat, Earring fromt he collection quest and the Rapier have +piercing, Gloves of Surration), while I have no + slashing, it also saves me having to remember switching weapons out for Inspiration. Also, Velium has a 7% proc compared to 5% bit less damage 189 compared to 151-252, but that extra 2% seems to make a big difference.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Licit on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[SmCaudata]

<div><blockquote><hr>Drevva wrote:Licit,You really found the velium weapon to give you higher dps?  I've been desparately hoping to see a one hander drop (frostwrath or one of the axes in HoS).  I'll be really bummed if I finally get one and it doesn't improve my dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.I've pondered switching to DW  of late because I keep seeing these really nice DW weapons drop and so far our raid group has seen 1  one hander drop, compared with about 15 DWers.  ah well, paitience I guess.Drevva<hr></blockquote>I do more damage with my frostwrath 1.6 delay than with my velium spear 1.3 delay.  It could be that the velium rapier has a delay closer to 2.0 making it seem like a better weapon when queing CAs.  I don't recall the delay on it.  When fully hasted on a group of mobs I swap in my spear for the most AoE Hurricane/Inspiration damage I can get in 12 seconds.  It may only be an extra attack or two but that is more damage.</div>

[Hammerhead70]

<DIV>goos question, thanks for input, really helps to analize what is optimal lineup</DIV>

[Neumann]

im like biggest nub ever for lvl 70...but w/ the big deal w/ queing CA's what that even mean?

[Carna]

<DIV>Those asking why they aren't doing as much damage as some others need to keep in mind that a lot of a Rogues (not just Rogues, most melee classes) dps comes from their group not from themselves</DIV>

[SmCaudata]

<div><blockquote><hr>Neumann wrote:<div></div>im like biggest nub ever for lvl 70...but w/ the big deal w/ queing CA's what that even mean?<hr></blockquote>If you click two CAs one after the other the second will go off after the recovery time following the first attack.  This is queuing.  There is an instant in between the two where you can swing a weapon if you weapon is ready to swing. If your weapon only need 0.1 seconds to swing, too bad, it will get delayed a full second until after the next CA.  This is why so many people have bad luck wiht low delay weapons.  So if you are fully hasted with a 1.0 delay weapon you will swing once per second with CAs going.  Basically it will be like you arent' hasted at all.</div>

[Neroze]

I never really pay attention to the swash boards, but I think I might after reading this thread. I have seen quite a few questions on DPS. What is the best group setup for a swash? etcHere is the AA's i went and this is not what most swashes did.STR 4-4-4-8STA 4-4-4-4-8WIS 5Wehn raiding it varies what group I get put in becase a swash is very versatile. I am usualy with a fury for Agitate. I love that spell. Procs from other caster I don't usually have like phonexblade. ok let me give you a better exampleIn Nizara fighting the x4 as the x4 with 2,000,000 hps grouped with a Guard, Monk, Temp, Fury, Coercer (No DPS on me). I Have agitate along with other long term group buffs and when they use their short term buffs that they have. Also keep in mind I just now find out about this Ruthless Cunning spell I didn't know I could get. Add me to the list of those who didn't know about it. On that x4 fight I average 900-1000 DPS with only the buffs from that group using GM Caustic at the begining for hte extra damage and then switching to Mental breach for power to keep using my CA's cause that is where most of my damage comes from. On a x4 raid I can get up to 1450 steady spiking up to 1800ish on a good fight with varios buffs but nothing that is exceptional to boost my DPS. This is with tanking specced AA's when the WIS line is suppose to be the BIG dps for a swash. I would say timing of using certain spells in a particular order to avoid a laspe in recast along with a good delay weapon to avoid not auto attacking between CA casts. IE use Guile and Whirl of Blades before using your big CA's for hte extra boost in damage.oh and i don't have any special equip either. just a 23% haste forearm item from Nizara and MoA. 37-44% of my damage comes from auto attack and the rest is from CA's. Hope this helps a little.P.S. I think the WIS line is a bit overrated but it is a different way of doing damage.

[SmCaudata]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:P.S. I think the WIS line is a bit overrated but it is a different way of doing damage.<hr></blockquote>With zero outside DPS buffs the STA line and WIS line will give similar results.Every 100 swings:Wis line = 172 swings with normal damage.Sta line = 100 swings with 50% dps boost.  Like swinging 150 times.Figure a hit rate of 75% as a low end average and the wis lines 72 extra swings turn to 54 extra swings.  So on tough to hit named raid mobs or when hitting a mob from the front that has decent parry chance the Sta line is equal or better unbuffed.Now, in my typical raid situation I have an inq with 26% dps. If I cast rutheless cunning for 41% (perfect finesse is better yet) things get skewed.Every 100 swings:Wis line = 172 swings (150 against tough named) doing 167% damage = 250 - 287 effective swings.Sta line = 100 swings with 100% dps boost = 200 effective swings.Capped DPS (+100 from coercer and dirg/inq)Wis line = 150-172 swings doing 200% damage = 300 - 344 effective swings.Sta line = 100 swings doing 200% damage = 200 effective swings.That is a 50% boost to auto attack damage over the STA line.  If you are doing 35% damage from auto attack and parse 1k, you would have parsed 1.175k with the Wis line.  If you never recieve any outside DPS buffs and you never use STR proccing dps rings then you will nearly break even with a 75% hit rate. This may be the situation you are in.So, in summary Wis line is not overrated. It is the best damage line the rogues have.  STA line gives you the effective damage of duel wielding while carrying a shield at the cost of not being able to boost it as much with dps spells.  When EoF comes out and raises the DPS the gap in damage between the two will shrink, but the Wis line will always come out slightly ahead unless you are talking about a 50% hit rate or something really low.  Oh, and since we are talking EoF, coule is going to be even more useful with the ability caps being raised and being made more meaningful (I bring this up since you took the top tier STA ability, I personally have traumatic swipe so coule doesn't play a factor).</div><p>Message Edited by SmCaudata on <span class=date_text>10-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[Kharadr]

If you look purely at damage done and you assume that people will always have all the best options for weapons available to them, then the WIS line is probably best. I think my problem with the WIS line is simply that I am "wasting" an equipment slot. There is more to raiding than just DPS; you have to survive AE as well, for instance. A shield will help with avoidance and stats for AE; two dual wielding weapons have a little more stats as well, generally speaking. DPS is hugely important, but only when you are alive.<div></div>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>"With zero outside DPS buffs the STA line and WIS line will give similar results."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically that means this only holds true for soloers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Double attack comes in to its own with high dps and Haste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swashies have high haste anyway most of the time so the moment you have a dps buff added double attack (wisdom) line will run away with the parser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the reason for this is very simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>autoattack is 1x damage , +100 % dps is 2 x damage , +100 % haste is 4 x damage , +100% double attack come in at a whopping 8x damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you are theoretically at 100% DA/haste/dps you would be doing twice the autoattack damage of someone with stamina line at 100/100 haste dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swashies are one of the easier classes to max haste and dps making Double attack very very powerful.</DIV>

[Twoboxer2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ildarus wrote:</P> <P><BR>How are you doing that 1850?? I have tried the Wisdom line and I just can't get up over 1,000 consistently. I have had parses go over 1,000 on extDPS, but it doesn't happen often, usually stick right around 850-900. It doesn't seem to matter if I am using Wisdom/Strength or Strength/Agility. All my ability are Adept III or higher. I just can't seem to break this. Our Brigand is constently doing around 1100-1200 and I know as a Swashy I should be beating him or at least we should be jocking for DPS.</P> <P>I here some people talking about 1600-2000 DPS and I sometimes wonder if they are looking at DPS instead of extDPS on the ACT Parser. Because I have seen some of my straight DPS at 1600, but my extDPS was at 900.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>900/1600? At first I thought maybe he's exaggerating, but then - what if he isn't? If it were a 1-minute fight, what were YOU doing for 26.25 seconds?</P> <P>Seriously, the first step is run your own parse after the raid so you can look at the details, and compare yourself to him. Is EVERYONE idle for 26 seconds?</P> <P>Achieving the high-dps numbers you see here requires good equipment, good play, running 100%/100% "all" the time, staying "poisoned-up", good mates who shorten fights and/or provide power, and even getting some proc-buffs.</P> <P>Your equipment, CAs, and in-raid buffs may not be up to his level of course, but there are some simple things you can check to see if YOU are doing all you can do with what you have:</P> <P>- Do you have the Bloodlines DPS self-buff Ruthless Cunning? Some folks dont know it exists.</P> <P>- Does your UI provide real-time display of your Haste and DPS so you can make efficient use of your self-buffs . . . not waste them? Hopefully you have 15%-23% equipment Haste, enough rings to get the right procs when you are with (eg) an Illusionist OR a Coercer, and dont use Ruthless Cunning and Perfect Finesse when you are already near or at 100%.</P> <P>- Rogues have several "anywhere", one frontal/flanking, several rear/flanking, and one (Swashie) or three (Brigand) rear-only attack. Some rogues camp the target's butt during a raid, and never fire the frontal/flanking attack. Poof! Goodbye 40+ dps.</P> <P>- Some rogues move to the flank to fire the frontal, and don't fire other CAs while they move. Lost DPS.</P> <P>- Some rogues can't return to the rear of the mob accurately and lose time firing their rear-CAs. Lost DPS (EG, once at the rear, you can actually fire a CA while jumping to the front of the mob, fire the frontal, jump back while firing yet another with no time or position lost.)</P> <P>- Some rogues do not open every fight in stealth to open with Brazening and lose 1k damage per encounter. Or even fire Artic Blast while moving in on the call if that works in your raid setup.</P> <P>- On multi-mob encounters, some rogues do not fire Lucky Ploy soon enough, and lose a chance to fire it a second time, losing 1k-2k every encounter. Much rarer is the lost opportunity to fire a second Dashing Swathe.</P> <P>- Can you move well enough to not lose time firing any of your positional CAs, and still keep multiple mobs in Hurricane's frontal cone? Lost DPS.</P> <P>- Are you as Hasted as you are going to be when you fire Inspiration?</P> <P>- Is your MA slow to select the next target, and do you wait for that while he does not (hitting TAB and firing CAs until a new target is chosen)?</P> <P>- Overall, do you "swing" as often as he does?</P> <P>- Do you check your poison after each encounter, and re-poison if its got less than 4 charges left . . . before entering stealth to prepare for the next fight?</P> <P>Your Brigand knows when Dispatch - and even Devitalize - are coming while you don't. But you should have higher DPS, all else being equal. So something isn't.</P>

[Kharadr]

The single most important reason for sucky DPS is raid displacement.I have turned off all spell effects because I can't see the mob otherwise. On multiple mob encounters, things get so busy I can spend 10 seconds trying to see where the back of the next mob is, or worse still, where the mob is our MA or MT is targeting. Mobs get pulled in walls, get pulled hugging walls facing out. If you assist your MT or MA at all times, you hafta wait until they retarget. If you don't, you have to retarget them and then wait for them to retarget or you risk a wrong assist. In short, your DPS can be amazing if your raid is. I know I suck because our other swash parses twice my DPS, so I know it's me <span>:smileywink:</span> But I still have the excuse of being a newbie raider with only very few M1 arts and relatively sucky gear. I still have all the problems mentioned above, though. I am in the wrong place at the wrong time way too often.<div></div>

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kharadrim wrote:The single most important reason for sucky DPS is raid displacement.I have turned off all spell effects because I can't see the mob otherwise. On multiple mob encounters, things get so busy I can spend 10 seconds trying to see where the back of the next mob is, or worse still, where the mob is our MA or MT is targeting. Mobs get pulled in walls, get pulled hugging walls facing out. If you assist your MT or MA at all times, you hafta wait until they retarget. If you don't, you have to retarget them and then wait for them to retarget or you risk a wrong assist. In short, your DPS can be amazing if your raid is. I know I suck because our other swash parses twice my DPS, so I know it's me <span>:smileywink:</span> But I still have the excuse of being a newbie raider with only very few M1 arts and relatively sucky gear. I still have all the problems mentioned above, though. I am in the wrong place at the wrong time way too often.<div></div><hr></blockquote>All it does is take practice. You will learn how your MT / MA pull each enc soon enc for each zone and you will naturally know what the next mob you are killing is. If your MA is unable to target the next mob fast enough if you use an MA then I suggest yoru raid force should find a new MA. IT isn't hard to hit F8 or Tab. Using all of avilities at the right time is key to parsing high. Do you use Hurricane? You will get a hell of a lot of extra attack with that spell up on multiple mob encs. Still pisses me off that one of our Conj beats me consistaly almost every fight but it gives me something to strive for and I keep him on his toes. We have fun with it. Using every spell in your arsenal helps. They do not take long to cast soo you should be able to cycle through them quickly and get a second shot of many of them off on the same enc. More if hte enc is a long one.I just found out about Ruthless Cunning and haven't had a chance to see how much it helps on raids but I didn't have it. There is 3 pieces of gear I am getting ready to get just for proc effects to help boost my damage without outside help. Once again it just takes practice.</div>

[liveja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Xerxess wrote:</P> <P>I usaully fight in groups a lot so I guess I was afraid of stealing aggro hehe<BR><BR></P> <HR> <BR>I can't remember the last time I pulled aggro, from a competent tank.</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmCaudata wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Figure a hit rate of 75% as a low end average and the wis lines 72 extra swings turn to 54 extra swings.  So on tough to hit named raid mobs or when hitting a mob from the front that has decent parry chance the Sta line is equal or better unbuffed.<BR></P> <P>...</P> <P><BR>When EoF comes out and raises the DPS the gap in damage between the two will shrink, but the Wis line will always come out slightly ahead unless you are talking about a 50% hit rate or something really low.  Oh, and since we are talking EoF, coule is going to be even more useful with the ability caps being raised and being made more meaningful (I bring this up since you took the top tier STA ability, I personally have traumatic swipe so coule doesn't play a factor).<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Message Edited by SmCaudata on <SPAN class=date_text>10-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your doing your math wrong. Hit rate affects both STA and WIS equally.</P> <P>IE: 100 swings + 72 double attacks turns into 75 swings + 54 double attacks with 75% hit rate.</P> <P>STA lines 100 swings * 1.5 turns into 75 swings * 1.5..</P> <P>So 100% hit rate = 172 'hits' WIS, 150 'hits' STA. 172/150 = 14.67% advantage to WIS</P> <P>75% hit rate = 129 'hits' WIS, 112.5 'hits' STA.. 129/112.5 = 14.67% advantage to WIS.</P> <P>Hit rate affects all our AA's equally, so it has no effect when comparing AA lines whether you are at 10% or 100% hit rate.</P> <P>STR is best for raiding because the Crits scale with all buffs and all equipment/skills.</P> <P>WIS is second/tied for best because the double attacks scale with all buffs and equipment (not skills), and auto-attack damage makes a bigger chunk of raid fights.</P> <P>AGI and STA fall behind those two, because AGI's extra damage proc only scales with Haste buff, and STA's DPS bonus scales the same way as WIS, but caps out early on DPS%.</P>

[SmCaudata]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <p>Your doing your math wrong. Hit rate affects both STA and WIS equally.</p></blockquote>Yep. I did. I added that as a last minute thing and didn't really think.  I started out with base damage, then only figured my hit rate on the double attack hit.  Not sure what I was thinking.  I probably would have caught it if I read it over again.On a side note: Where did the other STR/WIS rogues put their last point if they went max double attack, crits, and traumatic?My thoughts:Toporous strike:  Small damage increase but increasing casting/recovery timers on the mob means less damage and a slightly higher chance at interrupting.  I guess it all depends on how long the base cast timers are for the mob.Lunge Reversal:  More damage.  But an extra 50 base damage every 20 seconds is at best 5-10 dps in a raid situation.Defense:  Easy to cap defense now, but with EoF it won't be.Parry:  This will make lung reversal fire off closer to the end of the 20 sec cooldown.  Also, my parry chance is 12% so adding another 1% seems like a big buff.  Also, unless I am mistaken it doesn't add to your parry skill, making it better than defense.I have that last point sitting there and I am just not sure.</div>

[Hammerhead70]

<DIV>great info guys thx!</DIV>

[Cocytus]

<P>I am speced str 4/4/4/4 agi 4/1, wis 4/4/4/8/8 myself.</P> <P> </P> <P>I saved some extra AA's cause I wanted walk the plank. I might respect out of it but I doubt it. If I hadn't gone for walk the plank, I probably would have put my last point in torporous strike or lunge reversal...tough call, honestly.</P>

[Neroze]

This thread is about "Raiding Swash".There is only one thing important to a swashbuckler and that is survivability. If you can't survive and AE or take a few hits if you pull aggro (Which is hard to do with as much hate as we can get rid of) then you are of no use to the raid. The STA line offers you 9% more Health and 24 STA if you only put 4 into those ranks. You also get 420 Mitigation if you complete the line. NONE of these require you to have a shield on. These are passive abilities. The WIS line can offer more damage from the 72% double attack rate (If you put 8 into the 4th bubble). You also get a chance to deal some damage EVERY time you Parry or Riposte AND when the mobs Parries, Blocks, Deflects, or Riposte. You gain no defensive abilities what so ever going down the WIS line except a chance to riposte a frontal attack (Why would a swash be in the front of a mob consistantly?) Does this line offer you more damage? Yes it does in most situations. Dead Swashbuckler = No help to the raid. I am not saying that swashs that go teh WIS line die a lot cause there isn't any thing that should hit a swash that they cannot live through. What I think you should ask yourself is, do you want to limit yourself to 'only' being effective at DPSing or do you want to make yourself useful in other aspects of the game. I chose to make myself useful in other parts of hte game besides just Debuffs / DPSing. The game is more fulfilling that way. Tanking is one thing Swashs can do VERY well when geared and specced right. 70th Tanking Raiding (Not at the same time. YET) Swashbuckler.

[Rokjin]

<DIV>I haven't ever had a problem with survivability on raids, so I chose to go with STR/WIS for maximum DPS. Having 1000 health left after an AOE and doing 1000 DPS is less helpful to the raid then having 500 health left after an AOE and doing 1200 DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Riposte in front quadrant and parry all other quadrants is actually quite useful by the way. 8% omni-directional damage avoidance that doesn't get reduced by ANY cap is quite useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not all swashies want to be mini-tanks. Anyways, with Coule and the 8% riposte/parry, I find I can tank quite well. Not quite as good as if I had a shield going too, but quite good enough for me, and the extra damage more then offsets the lost tankability when soloing.</DIV>

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<div>I haven't ever had a problem with survivability on raids, so I chose to go with STR/WIS for maximum DPS. Having 1000 health left after an AOE and doing 1000 DPS is less helpful to the raid then having 500 health left after an AOE and doing 1200 DPS.<font color="#3300ff">Survivability has never been an issue now or before i had the AA's i do now for me, just make things easier in all aspects of hte games. Please tell me that the 1000 and 1200 number were numbers that you just pulled out of thing air and 1200 is not the real number you get when you go full DPS with the WIS line and STR. What is the real average number from swash or brig who go the STR / WIS line. I have heard 2000 is steady but have never seen any proof of it. I don't mean 2000 one fight i mean 2000 consistantly. </font></div> <div> </div> <div>Riposte in front quadrant and parry all other quadrants is actually quite useful by the way. 8% omni-directional damage avoidance that doesn't get reduced by ANY cap is quite useful. <font color="#3300ff">I misread it. I went back and read it again.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Not all swashies want to be mini-tanks. <font color="#3300ff">Swashes are mini tanks whether they want to be or not. Most choose to not use that aspect of hte character. That is like saying not all pallies want to be mini-tanks. </font>Anyways, with Coule and the 8% riposte/parry, I find I can tank quite well. Not quite as good as if I had a shield going too, but quite good enough for me, and the extra damage more then offsets the lost tankability when soloing. <font color="#3300ff">That goes back to survivability.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Cocytus]

<P>Never had a problem with survivability on raids here either, and I'm primarily DPS specced. 4/4/4/8 on str and 4/4/48 on wis is the best spec for DPS, with your choice of wherever you want to put your last few points. We're rogues, the most hardy scout class....shouldn't have a problem surviving, really.</P> <P>Also, yes whether you want to be a mini tank or not IS relevant. Why? because, I don't know about you, but most rogues don't want to tank in a raid. Their primary job is <STRONG>not</STRONG> tanking.</P><p>Message Edited by Cocytus on <span class=date_text>10-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span>

[Dakkon_10]

I joust AEs and never pull aggro so survivability isn't really an issue for me. I'd rather do 1300-2000 dps than be a sub par tank. That's the crusaders job...

[Cocytus]

<P>rofl, agreed.</P> <P>I have always said: A good swash can joust without losing noticeable dps.  A worse swash stands in AE range knowing he can't survive. A better swash doesn't need to joust.</P>

[Neroze]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Cocytus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Never had a problem with survivability on raids here either, and I'm primarily DPS specced. 4/4/4/8 on str and 4/4/48 on wis is the best spec for DPS, with your choice of wherever you want to put your last few points. We're rogues, the most hardy scout class....shouldn't have a problem surviving, really.</p><p></p><font color="#3300ff">Best spec for rogue concerning DPS is STR / WIS. That is an understatement. It all depends on the player. 4/4/4/8 and 4/4/4/8 does not mean you will be the best DPS that you can be. It depends on how you play your class. You may be great at it. I don't know. I cannot judge you nor will I try. I still don't know an accurate number for the STR / WIS line parses. I have heard so many number and then I have seen some numbers. Too much conflicting info.</font><p>Also, yes whether you want to be a mini tank or not IS relevant. Why? because, I don't know about you, but most rogues don't want to tank in a raid. Their primary job is <strong>not</strong> tanking.</p><font color="#3300ff">It isn't about what I want to be. the fact is that swashes can be mini tanks whether you admit it or not. Whether you are specced for it or not. every rogue should know there primary job is not tanking, I would never try to say that. Their primary job is Debuffs above all else with DPS falling behind it.</font><p>Message Edited by Cocytus on <span class="date_text">10-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:32 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Dakkon_1007I joust AEs and never pull aggro so survivability isn't really an issue for me. I'd rather do 1300-2000 dps than be a sub par tank. That's the crusaders job...<font color="#3300ff">Crusaders are not sub par tanks. They are great tanks. Depends on the player.</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">1300-2000 DPS is what I am missing for going the STR / STA route when i do lets see 1250-1600 this way. Not worth the trade off imo for that little bit of a boost in DPS over what a rogue is possible of gaining.</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><hr size="2" width="100%">Cocytushave always said: A good swash can joust without losing noticeable dps.  A worse swash stands in AE range knowing he can't survive. A better swash doesn't need to joust.<font color="#3300ff">Jousting isn't needed in most situations especially for a Debuffer. I can't think of a time I go below 50% health on the big AE's.</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#3300ff">Overall I just find it hilarous when someone says a TRUE raiding swash since that is the class thta I play is specced to STR / WIS.  because that 'should' give them the best DPS. It is just funny how many people in this game are one way thinkers and are afraid to tink outside the box (That goes for more then just this topic)</font></div>

[Cocytus]

Sir, there is only one way to do things, and you must accept it or you will be put in stocks and later hanged.

[Neroze]

<blockquote><hr>Cocytus wrote:<div></div>Sir, there is only one way to do things, and you must accept it or you will be put in stocks and later hanged.<hr></blockquote>No there is not. There is many ways to do many things in this game and in real life. There are very few things that can only be done one way. If there was only one way to do things then the game would be boring. Lets take the ring event in blackscale as an example. 4 mobs in there you have to have engaged at one time while you are unable to kill any of them until all 4 seals have spawned. Then you are able to kill seals to trigger the named. Is there only one way to do this ring? No there isn't. There are several way. Some easier then others.<div></div>

[Dakkon_10]

you do realize he was just kidding...Stam is your choice, and you like it. But it is not ''the best'' raiding swash AA setup. You need to choose the setup that is best for YOU, not for everyone else, so of course there is no ''best'' setup. Wisdom / strength is currently considered best because it covers what a swash does in a raid, debuff/dps. Swashes aren't supposed to take hits in raids, that just wastes healer power. Besides, most AE's damage are up to your resists, not your mit, so sta is no help. Stam may be good on and off raids, but a wis/str swash will always be better solely on a raids.

[Kharadr]

Beg to differ on the AE damage type. A LOT of them are against crushing, piercing, or slashing. And those are REALLY annoying, because you can't up your mitigation (crush / pierce / slash) for relatively little money like you can your "proper" resists. Even a newbie raider like me with relatively crappy gear can walk around with 8K Heat resists; but the "melee AE" will just pound me into dust (ie I get whacked for 7K a pop). Zones like Halls of the Seeing are filled with mobs like that <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kharadrim wrote:<BR>Beg to differ on the AE damage type. A LOT of them are against crushing, piercing, or slashing. And those are REALLY annoying, because you can't up your mitigation (crush / pierce / slash) for relatively little money like you can your "proper" resists. Even a newbie raider like me with relatively crappy gear can walk around with 8K Heat resists; but the "melee AE" will just pound me into dust (ie I get whacked for 7K a pop). Zones like Halls of the Seeing are filled with mobs like that <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dunno, the AE's that I usually find myself threatened by is the type akin to the gazers in DT when I dun have a healer with that sort of group cure in group. If I got a say a warden on gazers, I never worry, but besides the fluke times when the healer of some reason doesnt get me up in HP before next one I cant recall when a melee AE did me in last time. Its DoTs that concerns me mainly and is my private raiding 'fear'.</P> <P> </P>

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dakkon_1007 wrote:you do realize he was just kidding...Stam is your choice, and you like it. But it is not ''the best'' raiding swash AA setup. You need to choose the setup that is best for YOU, not for everyone else, so of course there is no ''best'' setup. Wisdom / strength is currently considered best because it covers what a swash does in a raid, debuff/dps. Swashes aren't supposed to take hits in raids, that just wastes healer power. Besides, most AE's damage are up to your resists, not your mit, so sta is no help. Stam may be good on and off raids, but a wis/str swash will always be better solely on a raids.<hr></blockquote>Yup there is no best. WIS / STR is considered the best because that is the route most rogues went.  If most went AGI / INT we could all argue that, that line is considered the best. WIS line has no debuffs as you know already and that is our primary purpose on a raid is it not? Guess us rogues who chose to go the STA line or non WIS line aren't mssing anything vital except a little possible gain of DPS.Every class is meant to get hit at one time or another. 95% of the time no one except the MT should be taking a hit. There are many more things that waste healer power. STA is very much help even if not for hte Mit.STA line is good on and off raids. Correct but there is no way in hell you can say STR / WIS will always be better on a raid. that is just complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. ROFL at that. </div>

[Debunkt]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerozero wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dakkon_1007 wrote:<BR>you do realize he was just kidding...<BR><BR>Stam is your choice, and you like it. But it is not ''the best'' raiding swash AA setup. You need to choose the setup that is best for YOU, not for everyone else, so of course there is no ''best'' setup. Wisdom / strength is currently considered best because it covers what a swash does in a raid, debuff/dps. Swashes aren't supposed to take hits in raids, that just wastes healer power. Besides, most AE's damage are up to your resists, not your mit, so sta is no help. Stam may be good on and off raids, but a wis/str swash will always be better solely on a raids.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup there is no best.<BR><BR><STRONG>WIS / STR is considered the best because that is the route most rogues went.  If most went AGI / INT we could all argue that, that line is considered the best</STRONG>. WIS line has no debuffs as you know already and that is our primary purpose on a raid is it not? Guess us rogues who chose to go the STA line or non WIS line aren't mssing anything vital except a little possible gain of DPS.<BR><BR>Every class is meant to get hit at one time or another. 95% of the time no one except the MT should be taking a hit. There are many more things that waste healer power.<BR><BR>STA is very much help even if not for hte Mit.<BR><BR>STA line is good on and off raids. Correct but there is no way in hell you can say STR / WIS will always be better on a raid. that is just complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. ROFL at that.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are very wrong on this assumption. Not all rogues just read the forums and follow. Some of us have actually tried multiple AA setups to see what works out best for us. Is it entirely conincdience that a lot of us went STR/WIS... I don't think so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no, AGI/INT would never be argued as the best in the Swash forums. Swashes have the least problems with hate generation, out of all scouts, so there is little reason to look at INT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be different, awesome! That is exactly what the AA's are for, separate yourslef from everyone else.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dakkon_10]

<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:STA line is good on and off raids. Correct but there is no way in hell you can say STR / WIS will always be better on a raid. that is just complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. ROFL at that.<hr></blockquote>That's funny, I thought I just said that.Tell me, how would having STA line on a raid be better than WIS..... ever? So you can be lazy and take AoE hits? Ummm if I was that lazy I would have rolled a brigand. There are no unjoustable melee AE's, and with 100% dps mod from group buffs, STA line is useless imo.I get much more grief from magic/stun/stifle AoEs, the slashing/crushing/piercing ones don't EVER bother me.

[Kharadr]

Magic / stun / stifle AEs are very annoying but they don't kill us (unless we get hit subsequently and the healer is still stunned /wink)"Melee" AE will not bother you if you have the gear for it. In my "family-raiding" guild, many melee get clobbered by it.You can only joust AE when it's one mob you're facing. The big problems arise when groups are pulled and all the mobs have AE. They aren't usually nice enough to fire them off all at the same time.To be honest, you can go for pure DPS if you have the gear to back it up. If you don't, you go for survival first. Dead swashy = zero dps.<div></div>

[Cocytus]

<P>I dunno why so many people are mentioning getting oneshotted by crush/pierce/slash AEs. I have enough mitigation without the stamina line, and enough health to not be oneshotted by those.... o_O</P> <P>In fact, I haven't been oneshotted by AE's for months, save for a night where for some reason drakes in labs kept hitting me for 10k....Which made no sense. Their selective AE (the harder of the two AEs) typically only hits me for a very maximum of 4k. Aside from that...haven't been oneshotted since the first time I went to MOA4 without resist gear for the boss.</P>

[KronickDTA]

<DIV>This is a pretty futile argument but here goes..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont tank with my swashy...why? because he's a scout, i have enough alts to do the things that THEY  are good at then to try and do them all with one character.  In a pinch a scout can tank yes.  But as far as this conversation is going if you have the gear to survive AE's then sta is pretty much useless for a raiding swash.  If you are in a small guild with a shortage of tanks and you need something for small groups etc, fine.  But i just can not see anyone trying to argue that it has any place as a raid option.  Debuffs are our main purpose? Perhaps, but somehow every one of us that are wis/str specced are hitting the top of the parse night after night which gives us a new purpse, which i think most of us are quite happy with!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>D P S!</DIV>

[A 12 Gauge 007]

Please... stam line for survival of AEs? Thats what gear is for! If you cant survive AEs betray so you dont get hit by them. I have absolutely no problem with melee based AEs, not a single one in game. The AEs you have problems with are resist based and those are easy to deal with... get some moonstones. I understand theres more ways then one to skin a cat but this thread says Raiding Swashy. If raid you have TWO purposes. To slow the damage the MT is taking and to put out very large amounts of situational dps. I dont care who says it or how many times... A swashbuckler will never be a successful raid mob tank.

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gokineq2 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Nerozero wrote: <div>Yup there is no best.<strong>WIS / STR is considered the best because that is the route most rogues went.  If most went AGI / INT we could all argue that, that line is considered the best</strong>. WIS line has no debuffs as you know already and that is our primary purpose on a raid is it not? Guess us rogues who chose to go the STA line or non WIS line aren't mssing anything vital except a little possible gain of DPS.Every class is meant to get hit at one time or another. 95% of the time no one except the MT should be taking a hit. There are many more things that waste healer power.STA is very much help even if not for hte Mit.STA line is good on and off raids. Correct but there is no way in hell you can say STR / WIS will always be better on a raid. that is just complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. ROFL at that.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>You are very wrong on this assumption. Not all rogues just read the forums and follow. Some of us have actually tried multiple AA setups to see what works out best for us. Is it entirely conincdience that a lot of us went STR/WIS... I don't think so.</div> <div><font color="#3300ff">Some of you all did testing but i doubt more then 50% of the swash who went the STR / WIS route did. That is not an easy statement to say but I would fine it true. </font></div> <div>And no, AGI/INT would never be argued as the best in the Swash forums. Swashes have the least problems with hate generation, out of all scouts, so there is little reason to look at INT.<font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">If you couldn't tell I was being sarcastic.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>If you want to be different, awesome! That is exactly what the AA's are for, separate yourslef from everyone else.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Neroze]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Dakkon_1007 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:STA line is good on and off raids. Correct but there is no way in hell you can say STR / WIS will always be better on a raid. that is just complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. ROFL at that.<hr></blockquote>That's funny, I thought I just said that.<font color="#3300ff">How is that funny? Nothing above is untrue. Why cause there is nothing diminished from taking teh STA line. Therefore it is good both on and off raids.</font>Tell me, how would having STA line on a raid be better than WIS..... ever? So you can be lazy and take AoE hits? Ummm if I was that lazy I would have rolled a brigand. There are no unjoustable melee AE's, and with 100% dps mod from group buffs, STA line is useless imo.<font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">Tell me how the WIS line on a raid is better then STA... ever? Sometimes I don't joust the AE that won't hurt one bit. Most AE's I do joust. In order to get the DPS buff from the STA line you must have a roundshield equipped. I do not raid with a round shield equipped continuously cause that will lower my DPS from not having a secondary weapon equipped. The DPS mod and the AE Taunt are the only things in that line that require you to have a roundshield equipped while everything else is passive. There is no loss of DPS from going that line. There is just none gained from going the STR / WIS route which everyone says has higher damage output. </font>I get much more grief from magic/stun/stifle AoEs, the slashing/crushing/piercing ones don't EVER bother me.<font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">Every AE bothers with the Stuns, KB, Mezzes more then just the damage ones.</font>D P S!<hr></blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=28317" target="_blank"><span><u>KronickDTA</u></span></a><div>This is a pretty futile argument but here goes..</div><div> </div><div>I dont tank with my swashy...why? because he's a scout, i have enough alts to do the things that THEY  are good at then to try and do them all with one character.  In a pinch a scout can tank yes.  But as far as this conversation is going if you have the gear to survive AE's then sta is pretty much useless for a raiding swash.  If you are in a small guild with a shortage of tanks and you need something for small groups etc, fine.  But i just can not see anyone trying to argue that it has any place as a raid option.  Debuffs are our main purpose? Perhaps, but somehow every one of us that are wis/str specced are hitting the top of the parse night after night which gives us a new purpse, which i think most of us are quite happy with!</div><div><font color="#3300ff">No line has a  place as a raid option. Every line has a place as a raid option. </font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">If I was specced the STR / WIS line then Debuffs would still be my main concern over DPS. That is why I personally rolled this class to be useful on a raid. Debuffs is one way to be vital. </font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">just for laughs so I can judge you on poorly you think of us who went the STA route.</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">1- How do you think my DPS since I can talk for myself is? What do you think I average?</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">2- What do you think the limits of a Swash tanking are whether yout hink they shoudl be a tank or not? Use zone mobs etc and I will list what I personally have done thus far.</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">3- How much DPS do you think I possibly lose for not being specced with the STR / WIS?</font><hr size="2" width="100%"></div><div><hr size="2" width="100%"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=187324" target="_blank"><span>A 12 Gauge 007</span></a>Please... stam line for survival of AEs? Thats what gear is for! If you cant survive AEs betray so you dont get hit by them. I have absolutely no problem with melee based AEs, not a single one in game. The AEs you have problems with are resist based and those are easy to deal with... get some moonstones. I understand theres more ways then one to skin a cat but this thread says Raiding Swashy. If raid you have TWO purposes. To slow the damage the MT is taking and to put out very large amounts of situational dps. I dont care who says it or how many times... A swashbuckler will never be a successful raid mob tank.<font color="#3300ff">Slow the damage done to the MT - Check and done with Debuffs from a swash</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">Deal very large amounts of damage to the mobs - Check (Even if specced with the STA line. I didn't take the STA line for AE survivability though).</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">You still wouldn' believe it not EVEN IF Ishbu said it? Come on now he is god almightly and cannot be argued with cause he thinks he is always right. Certainly if he says it then it must be true. ROFL. Sorry i had to thorugh that in. </font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">How about if my mother said it? Moorguard, what about him?</font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">The question I asked above, it would be interesting to see your responses to them also.</font><hr size="2" width="100%"></div>A lot of topic on AE atm.There is no AE I believe as a swashbuckler that will one shot you regardless of what AA lines you went down.P.S. Of all the words I mistype, i would have to think that 'the' is the most common.</div>

[Dakkon_10]

<blockquote><hr>Nerozero write:Tell me how the WIS line on a raid is better then STA... ever? Sometimes I don't joust the AE that won't hurt one bit. Most AE's I do joust. In order to get the DPS buff from the STA line you must have a roundshield equipped. I do not raid with a round shield equipped continuously cause that will lower my DPS from not having a secondary weapon equipped. The DPS mod and the AE Taunt are the only things in that line that require you to have a roundshield equipped while everything else is passive. There is no loss of DPS from going that line. There is just none gained from going the STR / WIS route which everyone says has higher damage output.<hr></blockquote>So let me get this straight... you are STA line specced, you use dual wields when raiding, and you dodge the higher damage AE attacks?So in other words, you went down a complete AA list to get 13% more hp and 420 mit, and you don't even get hit hard while raiding? Yeah, that is worth giving up 500dps... /rolleyes.Look pal, I know you like your ''tanking swashy'' title, but it is just not practical for a raid setup. You can be a tank all you want in a group or solo, but when raiding we are dps, even more than we are debuffers. Yes, a dead swashbuckler does no dps, but I have never had trouble staying alive on a raid without the STA AA line. You can preach all you want about the wonders of the STA line, but face it; It is NOT a better choice than WIS for raiding.

[Cocytus]

Amen.

[Rokjin]

<P>It's a simple thing.</P> <P>On raids, we have two roles. Debuff, and DPS.</P> <P>STA line does not help with DPS as much as WIS or AGI or STR do.</P> <P>Therefore, a Swashbuckler who spent points in STA, given the same equipment/skill, will deal 5-20% LESS DPS then one who spent those points instead into WIS, STR or AGI.</P> <P>If your raid is advanced enough/well geared enough that it doesn't matter if you do 5-20% less DPS, then you can spec whatever you want.</P> <P>However, on difficult raids, that 5-20% DPS can make the difference, and in those cases a Swashbuckler speccing STA will be of LESS use to a raid then one that specced into something else..</P> <P>I am not sure how to put this any more simply. Specialization is king in raids in any MMORPG, period.</P>

[Kharadr]

I raid the Halls of the Seeing again last night and I need to report that with a lil better gear and a MUCH better group (ie the second MT group lol) I died only once to AE. I shall run ACT tonight to see if I got warded lots or if I resisted enough, but you guys made your point, I think. I won't go STA for AE now <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Domiuk]

<P>To take an AA line because its good for solo / small group play is everyones right.</P> <P>To argue that it is in some way a boon to your raid despite it reducing you as a scouts DPS by a very clear margin , ahem thats laughable <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Really the thought that a few hundred mitigation and a chunk more HPS outweighs a 15-20% dps increase <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>If your dieing a lot on raids as a scout its because you or your raid is doing something wrong and nothing to do with AA selection. </P> <P>Your job on Raids is debuff and do as much damage as possible without drawing agro, basically thats it.</P> <P> </P>

[A 12 Gauge 007]

<P>Nero Im not gonna argue with you... if you think you can match my DPS speced STA your just stupid.</P> <P>As for tanking, I tank myself. 90% of my time is spent Duo with my boxed warden. Going stam line will help you tank in groups I agree 100% but weather you go stam or wis or str or go get the harclave buff and find a way to get it out of the zone you cannot tank a 70+ epic named encounter. You cant tank the Doom trio you cant tank Prime you cant tank Vym you cant tank Pain you cant tank a 70+ epic encounter. You lack the taunts to keep appropriate agro. Even if you could tank in labs there are 4 classes that dont tank raids for the most part that would be more suited. SK Pal Monk Bruiser. Opps if forgot defiler...</P> <P>AGAIN your job on raids if to DPS and to Debuff.</P> <P>This post is called RAIDING SWASHY not grouping swashy not raid that wipes swashy not i can solo acrid mother swasy RAIDING SWASHY!</P> <P>Ive speced stam nero, I know what you lose and what you gain.</P><p>Message Edited by A 12 Gauge 007 on <span class=date_text>10-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[Turb]

It's going to depend too on the guild you're in.It may be helpful to trio some instances with a swash, healer and another dps to get upgrades/masters, and then a STA spec is handy.Your RL may be 'OK' with this and that you still raid. He may not. It's up to you to discuss your spec with your RL and decide whether it's OK, given your spec may help guildies in other ways sometimes.But from a min-max perspective, STR-WIS or STR-AGI ftw.

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Domiuk wrote:<div></div> <p>To take an AA line because its good for solo / small group play is everyones right.</p> <p>To argue that it is in some way a boon to your raid despite it reducing you as a scouts DPS by a very clear margin , ahem thats laughable <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><font color="#3300ff">I never said it would help the raid any. It helps my character and doesn't force me to sacrafice anything.</font></p> <p>Really the thought that a few hundred mitigation and a chunk more HPS outweighs a 15-20% dps increase <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><font color="#3300ff">the mit and the hp is more useful in the game than a bit of extra DPS imo. I am not hurting myself one bit or hurting hte raids one bit by choosing it over the WIS / AGI line. </font></p> <p>If your dieing a lot on raids as a scout its because you or your raid is doing something wrong and nothing to do with AA selection. </p><p><font color="#3300ff">Couldn't agree more and I have even stated that. Not sure if It was this thread though.</font></p> <p>Your job on Raids is debuff and do as much damage as possible without drawing agro, basically thats it.</p> <p><font color="#3300ff"> Couldn't agree more. Debuffs are our job. We do it quite well as swashbucklers.</font></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>A 12 Gauge 007 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Nero Im not gonna argue with you... if you think you can match my DPS speced STA your just stupid.</p><p><font color="#3300ff">You are a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I said I have beaten some who went the WIS line, I never said all. If i had said all then I would be a complete [Removed for Content] cause the WIS line as most say does increase DPS. If you are gonna call me stupid then make sure it was something I said.</font></p> <p>As for tanking, I tank myself. 90% of my time is spent Duo with my boxed warden. Going stam line will help you tank in groups I agree 100% but weather you go stam or wis or str or go get the harclave buff and find a way to get it out of the zone you cannot tank a 70+ epic named encounter. You cant tank the Doom trio you cant tank Prime you cant tank Vym you cant tank Pain you cant tank a 70+ epic encounter. You lack the taunts to keep appropriate agro. Even if you could tank in labs there are 4 classes that dont tank raids for the most part that would be more suited. SK Pal Monk Bruiser. Opps if forgot defiler...</p><p><font color="#3300ff">Doom trio i probably cannot tank. Pain I have never fought so I do not know how that enc works or what to exspect. Prime and Vym I see doable. Aggro wouldn't be an issue. THen you go on and say IF I could tank labs there are 4 other classes that would be more suited. I would Disagree on the Monk and Bruiser part thought. All of those class would need to be geared, able to hold aggro, have the HP just like any person who tanks a raid. Why would a swash be any different? cause we wear chain? Cause we will take slightly higher damage from having lower mit.</font></p><p><font color="#3300ff">I hop the Defiler comment was a joke.</font></p> <p>AGAIN your job on raids if to DPS and to Debuff.</p><p><font color="#3300ff">I think this is one part of this discussion that everyone one has made clear and no one is arguing that it is not our primary job. </font></p> <p>This post is called RAIDING SWASHY not grouping swashy not raid that wipes swashy not i can solo acrid mother swasy RAIDING SWASHY!</p><p><font color="#3300ff">Do you think I am that much of a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that I cannot read the title of a thread? I am a swash who raids if you haven't noticed hence why I am in this thread.</font></p> <p>Ive speced stam nero, I know what you lose and what you gain.</p><p><font color="#3300ff">I am gald, then you should know what we are capable of. I know what I can do with my char. Obviously I may do a few things differently then you in the way I play my char that you do. Is that why you see swashes tanking equaling a dead raid? If I said I was gonna heal with my swash that would be obsurd. Saying a swash can tank is not obsurd one bit.</font></p><p>Message Edited by A 12 Gauge 007 on <span class="date_text">10-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:It's going to depend too on the guild you're in.<font color="#3300ff"></font><font color="#3300ff">If you are gonig to play your character a certain way, wouldn't you play that way no matter what guild you are in? </font>It may be helpful to trio some instances with a swash, healer and another dps to get upgrades/masters, and then a STA spec is handy.<font color="#3300ff">The STA spec is handy for many thing. Trioing some instances is a good example. It could make things easier but it benifits much more then just that by far, atleast for me. </font>Your RL may be 'OK' with this and that you still raid. He may not. It's up to you to discuss your spec with your RL and decide whether it's OK, given your spec may help guildies in other ways sometimes.<font color="#3300ff">If I am happy with the spec I have chosen then He / She better be ok. I am sure there are some female RL out there but I haven't met one. I don't and I don't think anyone else should have to get approval from the RL to say it is ok. </font>But from a min-max perspective, STR-WIS or STR-AGI ftw. <font color="#3300ff">Min-max what? DPS? Then yes those lines will probably win in most cases, I have questioned that those specced with those line cannot out perform me in certain situations.</font><hr></blockquote></div>

[Dragonfly28]

Hehe STR and INT specc'd hereslacker likes to keep his repair bill low and FD  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Still wondering if i should have gone for the double attack, well maybe when i get my hands on that nice chel'drak sword <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />too bad it will cost me so much <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <span>Onaupu LynxL70 Swashbuckler/ L70 TailorUnitySplitpaw</span><div></div>

[Wildfury77]

<div></div>70 swashtank here - raiding (shock horror!)AAs Sta 4/4/8/8 Str 4/5/8/8. MT group. Average DPS 1100. i doubt wisdom line would add 500 and take me to 1600? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class=date_text>10-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>

[Jeffmaster]

if you analyse the difference between sta and wis if you do 1100 dps with sta...you would prob do 1200-1300max with wis

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jeffmaster wrote:<div></div>if you analyse the difference between sta and wis if you do 1100 dps with sta...you would prob do 1200-1300max with wis<hr></blockquote>How did you come up with that increase out of curiousity? What would hte wis Line put me at when i do 1450-1550 with the STA? What is the formula that you all have been using and how was it tested.</div>

[SmCaudata]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Jeffmaster wrote:<div></div>if you analyse the difference between sta and wis if you do 1100 dps with sta...you would prob do 1200-1300max with wis<hr></blockquote>How did you come up with that increase out of curiousity? What would hte wis Line put me at when i do 1450-1550 with the STA? What is the formula that you all have been using and how was it tested.</div><hr></blockquote>Okay. Lets say that he is getting no outside DPS buffs and his auto attack makes up 30% of his damage for 330DPS.  330/1.56 * 1.72 = 363.  So <b>worst case scenario somewhere around 30 dps from auto attack alone</b>.  Also, you get the added benefit of the double attack procing inspiration, meaning inspiration damage (which makes up 12-20% of damage on average length raid fights) is 72% higher for Wis rogues than for STA rogues.  Also, the Wis line gives lunge reversal which provided pretty good damage against those higher level mobs that parry/riposte alot.Now lets say he is getting 100% dps buff from other people in his group and now his auto attack is 40% of his total damage for 440 dps, giving a raw number of 220 dps before buff.  The wis rogue with 220dps and double attack and 100% dps buff will do 756dps. An increase of 316dps alone.  If you add in the inspiration damage and other 100% melee procs like Caucophony of Blades from a dirge this number goes up.  It is easily conceivable to get 400-500+ dps increase over a STA line rogue in the right group setup.So depending on group I would say that Wis line gives 100-500 dps over a STA line rogue.So basic formula. For sta to wis line conversion:<ol><li>STA auto attack damage / DPS buff to get raw auto attack   (ie if you are maxed in DPS divide by 2. If you have 85% divide by 1.85.</li><li>Take this raw number and multiply by 1.72 for raw double attack, then multiply by your outside raid dps buffs you get.  Don't forget that you have two personal DPS buffs that may go to waste with the STA line due to cap issues.  So if you get a total of 85% outside dps you have gone AAdamage/2 * 1.72 *1.85 = AAdamage * 1.591  (60% increase is nice)</li><li>Next take your damage due to inspiration and multiply by 1.72 to get new inspiration damage with Wis line.</li><li>Then (new AA damage - old) + (new inspiration damage - old) = total increase in damage.</li></ol>When you look at this you realize that there is no possible way that STA line ever will outdamage the WIS line.  It just isn't possible.  As for defensive abilities go the Wis line gives me 5% (I put my extra point here) to riposte front and parry from all other sectors. Each point gave me 0.6% avoidance total.  So 3% avoidance versus 8% extra hp.  And when you compare the top tier abilities if you took the STA line one then Coule is going to be pretty nice after EoF when skill caps are raised and they will actually mean something.  Personally I have traumatic swipe so I couldnt' get coule or the top tier STA ability no matter what line I went down.</div>

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>SmCaudata wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Jeffmaster wrote:<div></div>if you analyse the difference between sta and wis if you do 1100 dps with sta...you would prob do 1200-1300max with wis<hr></blockquote>How did you come up with that increase out of curiousity? What would hte wis Line put me at when i do 1450-1550 with the STA? What is the formula that you all have been using and how was it tested.</div><hr></blockquote>Okay. Lets say that he is getting no outside DPS buffs and his auto attack makes up 30% of his damage for 330DPS.  330/1.56 * 1.72 = 363.  So <b>worst case scenario somewhere around 30 dps from auto attack alone</b>.  Also, you get the added benefit of the double attack procing inspiration, meaning inspiration damage (which makes up 12-20% of damage on average length raid fights) is 72% higher for Wis rogues than for STA rogues.  Also, the Wis line gives lunge reversal which provided pretty good damage against those higher level mobs that parry/riposte alot.Now lets say he is getting 100% dps buff from other people in his group and now his auto attack is 40% of his total damage for 440 dps, giving a raw number of 220 dps before buff.  The wis rogue with 220dps and double attack and 100% dps buff will do 756dps. An increase of 316dps alone.  If you add in the inspiration damage and other 100% melee procs like Caucophony of Blades from a dirge this number goes up.  It is easily conceivable to get 400-500+ dps increase over a STA line rogue in the right group setup.So depending on group I would say that Wis line gives 100-500 dps over a STA line rogue.So basic formula. For sta to wis line conversion:<ol><li>STA auto attack damage / DPS buff to get raw auto attack   (ie if you are maxed in DPS divide by 2. If you have 85% divide by 1.85.</li><li>Take this raw number and multiply by 1.72 for raw double attack, then multiply by your outside raid dps buffs you get.  Don't forget that you have two personal DPS buffs that may go to waste with the STA line due to cap issues.  So if you get a total of 85% outside dps you have gone AAdamage/2 * 1.72 *1.85 = AAdamage * 1.591  (60% increase is nice)</li><li>Next take your damage due to inspiration and multiply by 1.72 to get new inspiration damage with Wis line.</li><li>Then (new AA damage - old) + (new inspiration damage - old) = total increase in damage.</li></ol>When you look at this you realize that there is no possible way that STA line ever will outdamage the WIS line.  It just isn't possible.  As for defensive abilities go the Wis line gives me 5% (I put my extra point here) to riposte front and parry from all other sectors. Each point gave me 0.6% avoidance total.  So 3% avoidance versus 8% extra hp.  And when you compare the top tier abilities if you took the STA line one then Coule is going to be pretty nice after EoF when skill caps are raised and they will actually mean something.  Personally I have traumatic swipe so I couldnt' get coule or the top tier STA ability no matter what line I went down.</div><hr></blockquote>No one has ever said that the STA will out DPS the WIS line. However we have said that we have beaten some that did go down the WIS line. Good info. Some of it I doubt and will clarify a few tings nad respond back but overall looks good and detailed. Thanks.</div>

[SmCaudata]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><hr></blockquote>No one has ever said that the STA will out DPS the WIS line. However we have said that we have beaten some that did go down the WIS line. Good info. Some of it I doubt and will clarify a few tings nad respond back but overall looks good and detailed. Thanks.</div><hr></blockquote>Exactly. You swashies that are outdamaging your Wis specced counterparts will outdamage them even more if you respec.  That is what I meant by my comment.  I out damage another swashie that I raid with regularly by 100-200+ dps zone wide and we have nearly the same equipment and CA upgrades.  Only difference in our AA lines is I have traumatic swipe and the other swash has lunge reversal maxed and the other points put elsewhere.  Player ability matter a lot, but all things equal everyone would see an upgrade in damage with Wis line over STA.  I havent' looked deeply into the Agi line but it looks promising as well because you get to dual wield and get a high damage proc.Edit:  My post was in no way meant to sway people one way or another, but just to provide numbers.  People can do what they want with thier AAs.  I am happy with mine and don't plan on changing.</div><p>Message Edited by SmCaudata on <span class=date_text>10-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:47 PM</span>

[MilkToa]

<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>SmCaudata wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Jeffmaster wrote:<div></div>if you analyse the difference between sta and wis if you do 1100 dps with sta...you would prob do 1200-1300max with wis<hr></blockquote>How did you come up with that increase out of curiousity? What would hte wis Line put me at when i do 1450-1550 with the STA? What is the formula that you all have been using and how was it tested.</div><hr></blockquote>Okay. Lets say that he is getting no outside DPS buffs and his auto attack makes up 30% of his damage for 330DPS.  330/1.56 * 1.72 = 363.  So <b>worst case scenario somewhere around 30 dps from auto attack alone</b>.  Also, you get the added benefit of the double attack procing inspiration, meaning inspiration damage (which makes up 12-20% of damage on average length raid fights) is 72% higher for Wis rogues than for STA rogues.  Also, the Wis line gives lunge reversal which provided pretty good damage against those higher level mobs that parry/riposte alot.Now lets say he is getting 100% dps buff from other people in his group and now his auto attack is 40% of his total damage for 440 dps, giving a raw number of 220 dps before buff.  The wis rogue with 220dps and double attack and 100% dps buff will do 756dps. An increase of 316dps alone.  If you add in the inspiration damage and other 100% melee procs like Caucophony of Blades from a dirge this number goes up.  It is easily conceivable to get 400-500+ dps increase over a STA line rogue in the right group setup.So depending on group I would say that Wis line gives 100-500 dps over a STA line rogue.So basic formula. For sta to wis line conversion:<ol><li>STA auto attack damage / DPS buff to get raw auto attack   (ie if you are maxed in DPS divide by 2. If you have 85% divide by 1.85.</li><li>Take this raw number and multiply by 1.72 for raw double attack, then multiply by your outside raid dps buffs you get.  Don't forget that you have two personal DPS buffs that may go to waste with the STA line due to cap issues.  So if you get a total of 85% outside dps you have gone AAdamage/2 * 1.72 *1.85 = AAdamage * 1.591  (60% increase is nice)</li><li>Next take your damage due to inspiration and multiply by 1.72 to get new inspiration damage with Wis line.</li><li>Then (new AA damage - old) + (new inspiration damage - old) = total increase in damage.</li></ol>When you look at this you realize that there is no possible way that STA line ever will outdamage the WIS line.  It just isn't possible.  As for defensive abilities go the Wis line gives me 5% (I put my extra point here) to riposte front and parry from all other sectors. Each point gave me 0.6% avoidance total.  So 3% avoidance versus 8% extra hp.  And when you compare the top tier abilities if you took the STA line one then Coule is going to be pretty nice after EoF when skill caps are raised and they will actually mean something.  Personally I have traumatic swipe so I couldnt' get coule or the top tier STA ability no matter what line I went down.</div><hr></blockquote>No one has ever said that the STA will out DPS the WIS line. However we have said that we have beaten some that did go down the WIS line. Good info. Some of it I doubt and will clarify a few tings nad respond back but overall looks good and detailed. Thanks.</div><hr></blockquote>The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.<hr>It is not irrelevant to the discussion one bit. It simply says that the WIS line by itself will not make the difference. The WIS line is not almightly and will not guanatee a boost in DPS. It has the possibility to increase your DPS. Saying that a STA specced swah can out DPS a WIS specced swash proves it right there. There are many many more factors that will increase DPS. </blockquote></div>

[Dakkon_10]

Allies: (01:00) 614911 | 10248.52<b>Swashbuckler 117668 | 1961.13</b>Necromancer 65455 | 1090.92Necromancer 57095 | 951.58Assassin 48431 | 807.18Warlock 45711 | 761.85Ranger 38090 | 634.83<b>Swashbuckler 37462 | 624.37</b>Note that one swashbuckler parsed considerably lower than the other although they were both specced for WIS.What I'm trying to say is, don't think that just because some swashes can't play their class that STA line is in any way a better choice than WIS <i><b>for raiding</b></i>.When a STA specced swash parses 2k then yeah I'll agree with you, but I'd sure like to see that parse. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dakkon_10]

<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.<hr>It is not irrelevant to the discussion one bit. It simply says that the WIS line by itself will not make the difference. The WIS line is not almightly and will not guanatee a boost in DPS. It has the possibility to increase your DPS. Saying that a STA specced swah can out DPS a WIS specced swash proves it right there. There are many many more factors that will increase DPS.</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Wisdom has the potential to boost your DPS, STA does not.Nobody is saying that if you choose wisdom you WILL parse 2k regularily, but they are saying you CAN. You still need to put in the effort.

[Turb]

<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.<hr>It is not irrelevant to the discussion one bit. It simply says that the WIS line by itself will not make the difference. The WIS line is not almightly and will not guanatee a boost in DPS. It has the possibility to increase your DPS. Saying that a STA specced swah can out DPS a WIS specced swash proves it right there. There are many many more factors that will increase DPS. </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>WIS will make the difference for two equally equipped and talented swashes in the same group makeup.If you choose to handicap yourself for DPS to be a better tank for group and some lesser raid content, fine, but to max DPS then WIS is the way. Double attack/etc wins over STA DPS mods when you're capped. Will be interesting to compare again when stat and DPS/haste caps are raised in November...

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.<hr>It is not irrelevant to the discussion one bit. It simply says that the WIS line by itself will not make the difference. The WIS line is not almightly and will not guanatee a boost in DPS. It has the possibility to increase your DPS. Saying that a STA specced swah can out DPS a WIS specced swash proves it right there. There are many many more factors that will increase DPS. </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>WIS will make the difference for two equally equipped and talented swashes in the same group makeup.If you choose to handicap yourself for DPS to be a better tank for group and some lesser raid content, fine, but to max DPS then WIS is the way. Double attack/etc wins over STA DPS mods when you're capped. Will be interesting to compare again when stat and DPS/haste caps are raised in November...<hr></blockquote>The DPS mod doesn't affect me personally cause when I am not tanking I dual wield so I do not get that bonus. It will be interesting</div>

[MilkToa]

<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.<hr>It is not irrelevant to the discussion one bit. It simply says that the WIS line by itself will not make the difference. The WIS line is not almightly and will not guanatee a boost in DPS. It has the possibility to increase your DPS. Saying that a STA specced swah can out DPS a WIS specced swash proves it right there. There are many many more factors that will increase DPS. </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>WIS will make the difference for two equally equipped and talented swashes in the same group makeup.If you choose to handicap yourself for DPS to be a better tank for group and some lesser raid content, fine, but to max DPS then WIS is the way. Double attack/etc wins over STA DPS mods when you're capped. Will be interesting to compare again when stat and DPS/haste caps are raised in November...<hr></blockquote>The DPS mod doesn't affect me personally cause when I am not tanking I dual wield so I do not get that bonus. It will be interesting</div><hr></blockquote>If you're dual wielding then you get almost no benefit from the STA line as opposed to a 72% chance to double attack from the WIS line when raiding, but somehow you want people to believe that you're choice has little or no impact on your raid DPS - bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].The stamina line is a great line for a lot of things (which may be more important to you than raiding) but it's a mediocre choice for raiding. That isn't a matter of opinion, it's matter of mathmatics.

[Neroze]

<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:<blockquote><hr>Nerozero wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.<hr>It is not irrelevant to the discussion one bit. It simply says that the WIS line by itself will not make the difference. The WIS line is not almightly and will not guanatee a boost in DPS. It has the possibility to increase your DPS. Saying that a STA specced swah can out DPS a WIS specced swash proves it right there. There are many many more factors that will increase DPS. </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>WIS will make the difference for two equally equipped and talented swashes in the same group makeup.If you choose to handicap yourself for DPS to be a better tank for group and some lesser raid content, fine, but to max DPS then WIS is the way. Double attack/etc wins over STA DPS mods when you're capped. Will be interesting to compare again when stat and DPS/haste caps are raised in November...<hr></blockquote>The DPS mod doesn't affect me personally cause when I am not tanking I dual wield so I do not get that bonus. It will be interesting</div><hr></blockquote>If you're dual wielding then you get almost no benefit from the STA line as opposed to a 72% chance to double attack from the WIS line when raiding, but somehow you want people to believe that you're choice has little or no impact on your raid DPS - bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].The stamina line is a great line for a lot of things (which may be more important to you than raiding) but it's a mediocre choice for raiding. That isn't a matter of opinion, it's matter of mathmatics.<hr></blockquote>I have never said i got a DPS benifit from the STA line. It is clear that I don't get a DPS increase from the STA unless you have a round shield equipped.. I never claimed to have.increase DPS from the STA line one bit as I know that would not be true. You gainn many things from the STA and it does NOT hurt your raiding capability at all. You still got your Debuffs and DPS which everyone agrees is what Swashbucklers are primaraly for. People saying that Raiding Swashes on and off hte forums use the STR / WIS line is complete bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. That is not true one bit. Rogues that go the STR / WIS line have a possibility to increase their DPS. You don't choose AA's just for raiding, you choose AA to better your character whether you want to believe that or not. You may say you choose it for raiding but you choose it for all aspects of hte game. You choose AA's to benifit your character all around in the adventuring part of the game not just raiding cause no AA will only benifit raiding. You increase something and you increase for Raids as well as everything. Nothing the STA offers me is more important that raiding as I love to raid along with many other tings in this game. To anyone who says that Raiding Rogues use the WIS line, that is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lie. I laugh at you for that.</div>

[Rokjin]

<P>One of the problems with character customization systems like Achievement Points or Talents (WoW) is that when you go into hard stuff, they don't become customizations anymore, they become requirements.</P> <P>For a casual raiding guild, a STA specced Swashy is equal to a WIS specced Swashy.</P> <P>For a hardcore raiding guild, a STA specced Swashy is considered inferrior to a WIS specced swashy, not because the STA Swashy has lowered their raiding ability, but because the WIS specced one has raised it, while the STA one has not.</P> <P>By raiding ability, I am talking raiding 'contribution'. IE: DPS, since Debuffs can't be improved outside of skill upgrades and Tramautic Swipe.</P> <P>What ends up happening is that unless you have the spec that maximizes your raiding contribution, you are considered to be 'losing' something, when in fact you just simply have not gained it.</P> <P>That is also where the confusion comes from.</P> <P>Backin considers that he HAS NOT lost anything, because he has gained tanking ability instead of DPS.</P> <P>Other people might consider that he HAS lost the extra DPS that would be gained from a different spec because they consider the tanking ability worthless in the part of the game they focus on.</P> <P>I personally run with an AA setup that includes Coule and only 5 points in Blackguard's Luck. Coule is quite 'worthless' in raiding as many people consider. But I play on a PvP server, and the extra skills come in quite useful.</P> <P>Whether I have GAINED skills instead of a bit more DPS from the 3 points of Blackguard's Luck, or LOST DPS ability for some worthless skills depends on the viewpoint of the person.</P> <P>Atleast be happy many guilds aren't enforcing a certain spec like in WoW.. where you weren't allowed on some raids unless you specced a certain way.</P>

[MilkToa]

<blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<P>One of the problems with character customization systems like Achievement Points or Talents (WoW) is that when you go into hard stuff, they don't become customizations anymore, they become requirements.</P><P>For a casual raiding guild, a STA specced Swashy is equal to a WIS specced Swashy.</P><P>For a hardcore raiding guild, a STA specced Swashy is considered inferrior to a WIS specced swashy, not because the STA Swashy has lowered their raiding ability, but because the WIS specced one has raised it, while the STA one has not.</P><P>By raiding ability, I am talking raiding 'contribution'. IE: DPS, since Debuffs can't be improved outside of skill upgrades and Tramautic Swipe.</P><P>What ends up happening is that unless you have the spec that maximizes your raiding contribution, you are considered to be 'losing' something, when in fact you just simply have not gained it.</P><P>That is also where the confusion comes from.</P><P>Backin considers that he HAS NOT lost anything, because he has gained tanking ability instead of DPS.</P><P>Other people might consider that he HAS lost the extra DPS that would be gained from a different spec because they consider the tanking ability worthless in the part of the game they focus on.</P><P>I personally run with an AA setup that includes Coule and only 5 points in Blackguard's Luck. Coule is quite 'worthless' in raiding as many people consider. But I play on a PvP server, and the extra skills come in quite useful.</P><P>Whether I have GAINED skills instead of a bit more DPS from the 3 points of Blackguard's Luck, or LOST DPS ability for some worthless skills depends on the viewpoint of the person.</P><P>Atleast be happy many guilds aren't enforcing a certain spec like in WoW.. where you weren't allowed on some raids unless you specced a certain way.</P><hr></blockquote>People can select their AAs anyway they like, I just find it disconcerting when someone misrepresents the result of their choices. I spec'd STR/WIS because I wanted to optimize my performance on raids and STR/WIS contributes to both my debuffing and DPS raid performance. In my case, the benefit I derive from raiding (in the way of armor and weapons) more than makes up for anything I might loose in groups or solo play with a different spec.If I wanted to optimize my ability to tank in groups or solo I would definitely choose an AA build with stamina, since it offers enhancements to both aggro control and HP. Unfortunately, this may mean I end up sitting on raids occasionally because others players offer more to the raid than I do.I'm in a casual raiding guild but we take the raiding we do seriously. We want to be able to complete all of the available raid content, which means that the people raiding must take it seriously too. If everyone in the raid sacrificed their raiding potential to maximize their solo/group performance the guilds raiding performance would suffer dramatically. One person sacrificing 100 to 300 DPS may not seem like much, 10 people doing it is a large drop in raid DPS. If you apply this to healing, debuffing and other AA enhancement skills you can really [Removed for Content] your raid force.

[Dakkon_10]

How about I put it this way.To be the best tanking swashbuckler, you need to go down the STA line, right? Well then how come I can tank every heroic instance, exluding Nizara, with just WIS spec? In fact, I don't even need the taunts to hold aggro. So if I can tank already with WIS, why should I change to STA?Why? Because if I ever want to be the best tank I can be, I have to go down the STA line. Just because I can tank already, it doesn't mean that I can't improve myself more. If I ever want to tank Nizara, then I will need to spec the STA line.But this thread isn't called ''Tanking Swash'' or ''Well Rounded Swash'' it is called ''RAIDING SWASH''. This isn't about how to improve your solo/group ability without decreasing your raid dps, it is about choosing the AA path that maximizes your raiding capabilities; DPS and DEBUFFS. So in other words, WIS and STR. By going STA instead of WIS you miss out on a huge chunk of DPS, and by choosing the final STA line ability you miss out on having Traumatic Swipe. No, you don't NEED to be specced to WIS to be a good raider, but you do if you ever want to be the best. Just like how you need STA to tank Nizara, you need WIS to parse your highest when raiding.