So how do I convince someone that 1h (WIS) is a legit DPS route for a rogue?

[Oxie]

<DIV>A guildie was asking me about my choice of a 1h vs. dual wielding. He has a 70 zerker and a 70 assassin, and made comment that a 1h was a waste on a scout. My reply was "well, my WIS line does this...my STR line does this...." (I'm currently 4-4-4-8 with WIS and 4-4-4-8 with STR, and I'm not sure where to put my last points) His reply was like "yeah, but you lose stats by not having something in your other hand, like shorting yourself 20 STR...focus on maxxing out STR, etc.)  I just replied again with "well, a lot of the swashies who are in the big raiding guilds on the other servers are having a lot of luck with this 1h weapon use..." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another swashy in guild is dual wielding, and seems to parse more than what I do, per fight, but after the end of the raid when all is tallied up, we are close with our DPS. We seem to have similar stats with our gear. In the Labs the other night (our 2nd time in there with the named mobs), the rangers and assassin averaged 500-550, where I was around 430. I had almost 500 critical hits vs.170 on the other swashy. I sometimes ease up on my DPS/button mashing, to focus on hitting my debuff spells when they pop up, plus I don't want to go full out and steal agro. I can't tell if my stats are horrid, or middle of the road. I don't nitpick apart my class, but I know what my spells do and I think I'm a pretty smart player. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm 70 with the following self buffed stats, no potions/poisons being used, and not using any food/drink.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5039 health</DIV> <DIV>3846 power</DIV> <DIV>haste 0%</DIV> <DIV>DPS mod 0%</DIV> <DIV>Attack 1275</DIV> <DIV>Mitigation 2388</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance 34.3%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR: 490</DIV> <DIV>AGI: 377</DIV> <DIV>STA: 238</DIV> <DIV>INT: 74</DIV> <DIV>WIS: 81</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what can I come back with to justify my wanting to roll on a weapon like Frostwrath or another 1h that doesn't obviously look like it should be in a MT's hand? I know a few 1h T7 weapons have defensive buffs, etc., so yeah, those kind are better off on a MT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you in advance for any comments that I can share with the non-believers.</DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I'd ask that guy what extra stats he thinks you need off that second weapon, because honestly you're doing fine statwise. Your STA is very respectible and your STR is practically capped without any outside buffs, AGI is okay (and frankly not too terribly important). INT could use a little work but unless you get some serious INT gear you're not going to see much of a difference. Raw HP and power -- yeah, it's nice. But in T7 we have the power drain potion to swap on as necessary, so it's not as big at all as in other tiers. So I'd ask your stat friend what exactly he thinks you're going to get out of the stats on a second weapon that are so important. Ask him if he actually knows what difference 20STR makes (hint: not a lot). Your stats are actually better than mine and I go one-handed and post a higher DPS without the full STR crit yet.Your DPS is a bit on the low side unless you're dying a lot or averaging in long jousts (so is your assassin's so I wouldn't take it personally, hehe -- assassins should generally do better than us, by the way). If you find yourself taking aggro with that kind of DPS, either you need to look into getting your MT more aggro or do a little bit better yourself on aggro management. Make sure Elude and Avoid Censure (or whatever their T7 versions are called -- actually I think they're upper 50s so they should be cheap) are at Adept 3, and also use that deaggro poison all the time. Spam Elude and think about dropping Lie Low during/before/after Inspiration (it's a feel thing, really). On a raid you should optimally be as close to 100%haste/100%DPS as possible. I still actually use my 15% FBSS, if you're not at 100% haste on raids I'd suggest gearing back into your FBSS as well, 15% haste beats pretty much all other stats you can get.Also I'd be interested in what weapon you have, Doomrage Blade is a relatively easy to get legendary (first named in HoF) that has something like a 63 damage rating, it's what I'm using at the moment.But no, single wielding a weapon isn't doing anything to your damage. With all due respect, I'd tell your zerker/assassin friend to get the hell out of your AA specs, because seriously, it's not their business <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 AM</span>

[Oxie]

<DIV>I have Doomrage and Scalesplitter. I currently have Scalesplitter equipped, for the STR stats only. The +20 has me at 490, and without it, I'd be at 470. I'm pondering the Scimitar of the Slashing Claw, but waiting for the price to be right on the broker. =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All my spells are either adept 3 or master 1. I just joined a new guild after my old guild broke up, so I'm getting used to playing with new people. I do get agro sometimes a wee bit more than I used to, but I think that is mostly because I'm just not used to my additional skills with this WIS/STR line and the points adding up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spam my 2 hate reducing buffs when they pop, and I have found that Inspiration just equals me getting too much attention, so I hold off on hitting it until the last 25% of the mob's life. When it looks like it is us vs. the mob and it is getting close to being a success or wipe, that is when I hit my "buzzsaw" spells (Ruthless Cunning, Perfect Finesse, En Guard, Inspiration back to back), then let loose on the high hitting spells</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll take your advice and toss on my FBSS if I'm not grouped with the right combo of classes to get my haste number up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the zerker/assassin, he's backup MT a lot of times, so if a super nice 1h drops, he's looking out for the tanks. I guess better 1h weapons can help the MTs keep agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I figure that I'll only get better at this as my guild progresses deeper into T7 raid zones and I can get better gear on me. I'm pretty set with plat...there just isn't anything on the brokers that are what I consider to be serious upgrades. Especially not for the price folks are asking on some stuff. >.<</DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Oxie wrote:<div>I figure that I'll only get better at this as my guild progresses deeper into T7 raid zones and I can get better gear on me. I'm pretty set with plat...there just isn't anything on the brokers that are what I consider to be serious upgrades. Especially not for the price folks are asking on some stuff. >.<</div><hr></blockquote>It sounds like you're pretty solid. You've got a nice set of AAs filled out, you've got your spell upgrades, a decent weapon, good stats, all that jazz. Better gear's going to help you out with mit and resists but it's not going to do a terrible amount for your DPS aside from keeping ya alive if that's a problem.Haste and DPS (unfortunate choice of name, but I mean the stat DPS) are enormously important for sustained DPS. Auto-attack does big damage to begin with, 100% haste doubles that, and 100% DPS doubles that. So you end up with a 4x multiplier to your largest source of damage. Plus 100% haste gives you twice the amount of procs, so your offensive stance, poisons, procs people lay on top of ya, all that jazz are going off twice as much. That's why I mentioned FBSS if you're not capping out on raids.The buzzsaw is actually a nice idea, except make sure you're not pushing yourself over the cap. The number one important thing is making sure haste is capped and you're mostly autoattacking while Inspiration is going. But if your DPS is already at, say, 75%, you're not going to want to pile Ruthless Cunning and Perfect Finesse on top of each other. One modification I'd make (and this is just a minor thing) is that with En Garde, 99% of the time I find myself with almost zero misses, so En Garde is going to be procing mostly off CAs if it procs at all. Because of that you don't want to use it with your haste/DPS buffs and Inspiration (which you're actually decreasing the DPS of if you're spamming CAs), you want to use it when you're starting a CA spam cycle.There was also a strategy I remember from a while ago and tried briefly about dropping into defensive stance and using En Garde to great effect, but it was troublesome and didn't work out terribly well for me. Your mileage may vary, though. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone uses it regularly now.</div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 AM</span>

[Keldo]

I use En Garde a lot, mostly it doesn't do much except proc 2 or 3 times on a boss fight.  I use it at the very start because thats when I usually spam CA's.  I do enjoy going defensive stance and using it vs brawler epics, they are kinda rare, tho.  Some trash in Lyceum, and some in Lab, Doomsworn Z.. that's about it. <div></div>

[Dakkon_10]

Ok, if a person can't realize why wisdom line 1hander is better dps than they are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] or stubborn. First of all, Inspiration still procs off the double attack, so that increases inspiration dps by 72%. Second, hurricane is much more effective when using a 1 hand weapon. Your double attacks can no longer proc hurricane, but still, would you rather hit AoE with a 1handers damage or a sual wields damage? The offhand weapon can't proc hurricane, so it's damage is based apon the primary slot, with a 1hander that damage is much better. And Finally, just look at the parse, it will explain all.

[Oxie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dakkon_1007 wrote:<BR>Ok, if a person can't realize why wisdom line 1hander is better dps than they are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] or stubborn. First of all, Inspiration still procs off the double attack, so that increases inspiration dps by 72%. Second, hurricane is much more effective when using a 1 hand weapon. Your double attacks can no longer proc hurricane, but still, would you rather hit AoE with a 1handers damage or a sual wields damage? The offhand weapon can't proc hurricane, so it's damage is based apon the primary slot, with a 1hander that damage is much better. And Finally, just look at the parse, it will explain all.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Heh. I think it has more to do with that they don't understand the spell lines, and my inability to effectively explain "why" it works so well. I'm not a number crucher, and I'm just following the lead of the folks who know what the heck they are talking about. If something happens in LUxx that changes the spells around, and if a few savvy swashies crunch the numbers to say "we're better off going this route now and using dual wield", I'll follow their advice.

[psYke]

<P>Like Alistair said ~ Don't need to say anything.. Let the parses speak for themselves ;]</P> <P>If you play your class right you can pretty much beat any class at will if you have a bomb 1hander with low delay.</P><p>Message Edited by psYkePP on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Oxie]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> psYkePP wrote:<BR> <P>Like Alistair said ~ Don't need to say anything.. Let the parses speak for themselves ;]</P> <P>If you play your class right you can pretty much beat any class at will if you have a bomb 1hander with low delay.</P> <P>Message Edited by psYkePP on <SPAN class=date_text>05-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:19 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's just the thing, my parses are not as good as they can be. I guess I need to go back to Swashbuckling 101 class and learn the right combination of what buttons I should be mashing together to be more effective with my DPS. *sigh*</DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Oxie wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> psYkePP wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Like Alistair said ~ Don't need to say anything.. Let the parses speak for themselves ;]</p> <p>If you play your class right you can pretty much beat any class at will if you have a bomb 1hander with low delay.</p> <p>Message Edited by psYkePP on <span class="date_text">05-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:19 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>That's just the thing, my parses are not as good as they can be. I guess I need to go back to Swashbuckling 101 class and learn the right combination of what buttons I should be mashing together to be more effective with my DPS. *sigh*</div><hr></blockquote>It really depends on what DPS charts you're looking at. Pay attention to the DPS on the named mobs especially where everyone's got their A-game on and their big spells up. Sustaining an average DPS over an entire raid is okay, but as long as you're not completely slacking on trash, what really matters is how you perform on big encounters. No one should care if you're putting out a couple DPS less over an entire raid if you're up there or above the big dogs on the named.</div>

[NimSul]

<DIV>Im not a swassie but i was looking at the pros and cons of dualwield/1hander (zerkers get double attack too). He used to use dualwields all the way thru dof, but after this he swapped to 1hander. What we came up with is pretty much:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fabled dualwield : 60-65DR tops</DIV> <DIV>Dualwield x2 : 120-130DR tops</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fabled 1hander: 80DR about</DIV> <DIV>1hander with rank 8 double attack: .78 x 80 + 80 = 142,4DR</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since procs dont work with your offhand dualwield theres no change to proc damage if the doubleattack hit dont proc either. I dunno if the weapons proc goes off on the double attack tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This shows you gain anywhere from 10-25DR from fabled quality weapons, treasured/legendary work in the same way altho with a smaller gain. And the bonus that 1 good weapon is easier to get than 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunno if it applies to your case but i would put it up anyways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[psYke]

<DIV>From what I have seen, It does really depend on if you have a good 1hander or not if you wanna put up bomb dps wit tha wis line. If you have a legendary 1h that has like 60dr on it wit a long delay, and you tryin to parse wit another swash that has 2 fabled dw's, there is a good chance he will out parse you if you both know how to play your class well. But you playin wit a 1h thats 84.1 damage rating wit 1 sec delay you will own all and make children cry.</DIV>

[Oxie]

<DIV>I want to thank everyone for their suggestions, tips, and feedback. Last night's raid numbers just rocked for me, but the other 70 swashy in my guild had similar DPS numbers and he's an AGI dual wielding swash. I'm still "unlearning what I have learned" from my previous button mashing combo style, so hopefully, I'll only get better at this career path that I have chosen. I was doing a lot of STR hex doll casting (and recasting on the 3rd mob in the groups) when the mobs were first being pulled, so that did drop my numbers down a wee bit from the start. That's ~16 seconds worth of button mashing I could have been doing! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>