Comparison: Swashbuckler to Brigand

[Masu]

<DIV>Can anyone explain the differences between these 2 classes for me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know their both DPS Debuffing classes, how do they differ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Keldo]

Swashbuckler: - Heavy AE based - Short reuse timers on combat arts (most 20 to 30 seconds) - Focus on debuffing mob's ability to deal damage - Strong deaggro and aggro transfer - Strong self melee buffs (haste and dps, str, agi) - Decent ranged ability - Short duration mez Brigand: - Heavy single target based - Longer reuse timers on combat arts (most 60 seconds) - Focus on debuffing mob's mitigation, increasing overall DPS of all party members - Decent deaggro and can deaggro others - Decent melee buffs (dps, str) - Limited AE immunity to offset low ranged DPS - Many control spells (mostly stuns) but no mez <div></div>

[Masu]

<DIV>Hmmmm most people tend to beleive Swashbucklers are better single target and AoE DPS than Brigs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats what I hear in game atleast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[the flu]

Was going to link a bunch of posts ( seems like this comes up at least once a month) but it turns out, overflow did it for me:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10343#M10343" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10343#M10343</a><div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:Was going to link a bunch of posts ( seems like this comes up at least once a month) but it turns out, overflow did it for me:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10343#M10343" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10343#M10343</a><div></div><hr></blockquote>Hehe, we should get a sticky up there with a list of Swashbuckler vs. Class X discussions. Maybe even hijack one of the stickies that's there right now. *shifty eyes*</div>

[MaestroX]

<P>From the Brigand POV, there are a few observations.</P> <P>The mit debuffs are MUCH better than we get credit for, 2k all magic or 2k all physical and another that does 3k to everything on  60 sec timers.  Our AE immune is 100% effective, unless we take DD from somwhere, like an add, but it doesnt happen often.  Most brigand CA attacks are positional, on 20-30 sec timers, hit harder for single target damage and have some type of debuff effect.</P> <P>On the other hand our AE damage is much worse than people realize.  We get one CA for AE damage. One, on a 60 sec timer.  We also have some very buggy animations right now that have us knocking ourselves down constantly.  </P> <P> </P>

[Davhanama]

<P>I have raided with and without a brigand and found the combination of she and I made things go much better.  Our debuffs seem to complement each other well.  I do lose some DPS concentrating a bit more on debuffing, but the rest of the raid seems to be more effective.</P> <P>Peace, love, and good elven wine</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Davhanama on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 PM</span>

[Galn]

<DIV>After playing both, Swash a lot higher than the Brig, the Brig seems to require position and stealth a lot more than the Swash. With the Swash I can hit from stealth behind, then pretty much duke it out face to face with mobs as high as yellow ^ solos. Even though its a powerful attack the Ruse line always seemed to bother me, didnt feel right to lay on the ground waiting for the mob to hit me just so I could hit them with a hard attack. </DIV>

[Carna]

<P>The Swashbucklers in the Brigand forum cheering on the reduction in Brigand CAs seem to think Brigands are overpowered.</P>

[Keldo]

This particular brigand really likes to troll so don't listen to him! <div></div>

[SageGaspar]

The happy state rogues are in right now is that we're not crazily overpowered, we have great debuffs, we do good DPS, we have good utility. Both of our classes can stand to take a couple nerfs and still do well for ourselves.I'd say Brigands are the better debuffers, Swashes have the better utility and AE DPS (maybe overall DPS, this is a tougher call).Utility comes largely in the form of being able to tank (both classes) and being able to transfer aggro (this is just a swashy thing). Swashes get a short-term mezz which is... sorta useful, brigs get more stuns. Both of these are getting nerfed next LU. Also they get to use poisons which are always very very handy.They both really differentiate themselves at 50+ when Swashes get hurricane (++AE DPS and land debuff poisons on all mobs in melee range), Lung Puncture (big single target offensive debuff), and Inspiration (big short-burst damage buff). Brigands get Dispatch and Debilitate for debuffing mob mitigation, Amazing Reflexes for dodging AEs, and Double Up for giving a nice extra kick to one of their debuffs or big damage attacks.There's a characterization that Brigs do better defensive and Swashes do better offensive debuffs, but the only time that argument actually works is post-58 once swashes get lung puncture. The only offensive debuffs Swashes get before that are INT, where brigs get STR, and DPS, where brigs get haste.<div></div>

[Foolsfolly]

The biggest diffrence between brigands and swashbucklers is that brigands have much more burst dps, while swashbucklers have more sustained dps over time. This is of course due to the fact that brigand attacks do signifigantly more damage but swashbuckler attacks have much faster reuse times. Now, if you're non-stop pulling or fighting mobs who last for 2-3 minutes at a time, then swashbucklers will take the lead here. However if you're fighting quick battles with short breaks in between, brigand will probobly do better. In PVP, no contest brigands are much better than swashbucklers. In fact since most fights last much less than 30 seconds, almost any class is better than swashbuckler in pvp. We are built for endurance, not for burst damage.Also, on raids, wizards seem to think of the brigand resistance debuffs as godly. On the other hand, nobody respects our swashbuckler divine/magic resistance debuffs.<div></div>

[Keldo]

Cause you forgot Inspired Daring/Inspiration = probably hands down best burst DPS over 13 seconds present in the game. <div></div>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR><BR>There's a characterization that Brigs do better defensive and Swashes do better offensive debuffs, but the only time that argument actually works is post-58 once swashes get lung puncture. The only offensive debuffs Swashes get before that are INT, where brigs get STR, and DPS, where brigs get haste.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's worth noting that until level 50 Brigands can't debuff Physical Mitigation at all. They very quickly make up for lost time from that point, but for a lot of people sub-50 is a fair chunk of time so it's worth noting. Swashbucklers get 2 physical mit debuffs during this period.</P> <P>Brigands get a nice Physical Mitigation + Strength self buff, while the Swashbuckler has Strength + Agility buff... could somebody correct me on that if I've got it wrong? I <EM>think</EM> Brigands can present more mitigation out of the box.</P> <P>Keldoth, grow up mate and quit acting like a schoolgirl. I had the audacity to argue with some Swashbucklers on the Brigand forums who were justifying nerfs. "This particular Brigand".... get over yourself mate.<BR></P>

[Keldo]

<div></div><div></div>I have a brigand, and post constructively on there all the time.  Which is more than I can say for you - 90% of the time all you do is whine about other brigands bragging and getting you nerfed and yelling at anyone else that comes.  Oh and following them to their own board and making snide comments about it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:41 PM</span>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR> Oh and following them to their own board and continuing the crusade of annoyance.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't follow you anywhere mate. I made a comment in a thread about Swashbucklers and Brigands... I play both.... you were actually the one who made a personal comment about me, so if anything followed <STRONG>me</STRONG>. I didn't make any comment about you until in reply.</P> <P>I didn't whine about Brigands bragging, I took issue with one of the top Brigands who averages 1.1k dps but insisted on quoting 2k dps everywhere. I suggested that it was inviting a nerf to Brigand dps... and what do you think happened?</P> <P>As I said, grow up and quit acting like a school girl.<BR></P>

[Keldo]

I never said you followed me, you follow the class, generalize and troll.  I took the bait because you annoy me, congrats. Now go away <div></div>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

<P>From a raiding Brigand point of view, we are practically a requirement for end game raids. Swashbucklers are very nice, and do about even DPS with me, but the 2k mitigation debuffs of Brigands make the entire raid up to 2x more efficient with spells and melee attacks, Swashie debuffs are mainly helpful for the MT.</P> <P>Brigands also don't have to worry about jousting due to AE immunity, but there are a few mobs that we're nearly useless on due to weak ranged ability (Corsolander in labs being a prime example with his 5 hit kill damage sheild). I have the best gear out of all of the rogues in my guild (2 T7 fabled, 2 T6 fabled, 3T7 legendary and a t7 legendary weapon with Acryllia jewelry, MoA neck, and a T5 haste bracelet, dragonhide bandolier for ranged) but I do less dps than the swashies with full adept 3 CAs, because I only have a couple of masters and adepts in t7. Rogues are MUCH more dependant on CA quality than gear quality, except crazy tanking rogues (Most of whom are swashbucklers I might add).</P> <P>Another benefit, is that if you take the wisdom line you don't have to bid against Assassins who pile up tons of DKP to get uber DW weapons. You just need to bid against warriors and crusaiders who generally save for armor rather than spend 600dkp on one weapon.</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>The-Fourm-Pirate wrote:<div></div> <p>From a raiding Brigand point of view, we are practically a requirement for end game raids. Swashbucklers are very nice, and do about even DPS with me, but the 2k mitigation debuffs of Brigands make the entire raid up to 2x more efficient with spells and melee attacks, Swashie debuffs are mainly helpful for the MT.</p><hr></blockquote>Yes and no. Brigs help the MT with debuffs to haste and STR, Swashes help the MT with debuffs to DPS, INT, and the primary attack stats. The swash ones are a little better than the brig ones from what I've seen but not by terribly huge amounts. Lung Puncture is nice but it's not gamebreaking -- it increases their chances of missing entirely, which is nice but not enormous. The other advantage they get is Hurricane for applying poisons to everything in an encounter at once.Swashes put out 1.3k physical mitigation (roughly, I'm not going to bother looking up specifics) to your 2k all mitigation and big dispatch.So as far as debuffs go I'd say Brigs are a good distance ahead of Swashes on single-target defensive debuffs, Swashes are a little bit ahead of Brigs on single-target offensive debuffs. It works out about even though considering DPS and AEs and other utility swashes have, here's a little comparison I drew up, feel free to tell me if you think I'm bonkers.Single-Target Magic Defensive Debuffs: Swash Average, Brigand ExcellentSingle-Target Physical Defensive Debuffs: Swash Good, Brigand ExcellentSingle-Target Offensive Debuffs: Swash Good (excellent with STR5), Brigand Average (good with STR5)AE Debuffs: Swash Average (hurricane + poison), Brigand PoorSingle-Target DPS: Swash Good, Brigand GoodAE DPS: Swash Excellent, Brigand PoorSingle-Target Tanking: Swash Good (excellent with STA AA), Brigand ExcellentAE Tanking: Swash Excellent, Brigand Average (good with STA AA)Utility: Swash Excellent (mostly aggro transfer), Brigand Good</div>