What's the new math for SW vs DW ?

[Twobox]

<DIV><STRONG>EXTENSIVELY REVISED for comments, corrections from others. See "bookmark" post further down in the thread.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK, things have changed - and it seems time to re-evaluate the value of the WIS line compared to the STR line in terms of DPS. The math and the assumptions aren't easy, so please help me if you can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Question:</STRONG> Do the benefits of Unencumbrance/Freehand Reversal (52% + 20% =72% chance of double-primary attack, secondary unequipped) represent an improvement not only over DW, but also the benefits of Blackguard's Luck (+13.9% increase in % chance to Crit, +30% to melee). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if done objectively, some will recognize the comparison is a bit unbalanced - eg, I will use almost 2 full AA's on the side of 1h and only one on the side of DW. There will undoubtedly be several of these. But if the imbalances are "known", you can still make your own evaluation and choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Let me be specific: I am talking about raw Damage/DPS for the group/raid PvE Swashie.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Some Notes:<BR></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Note 1: On Weapon choice:</STRONG> It is critical to understand the reason for the weapon choice so you can adjust the data from "theoretical" to "what-I-can-get-my-elven-mitts-on".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As pointed out by SageGaspar, it appears SOE's "baseline" is that a 1-hander will have 1.33 times the rating of an "equivalent", single DW weapon. Check the Qeynos Rapier (80.86) vs Qeynos Cutlass (60.55) or the Primal Velium matchups (71.2 vs 53.4). Maybe this ratio is a good choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Checking the "best" weapons currently discovered (ie, at least on one server), the ratio is Right Hand of the Priestess (84.95) vs Vyremm's Fang (65.82) or 1.29.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Since I have real data on the DW pair below (average Rating 59.5), I'm going to use those as the DW base, and choose a 1-hander that has been discovered on many servers (Rating 79.79). The ratio of their Ratings is 1.331.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>You say: These weapons are ridiculous - I will never get them !!</STRONG> Maybe so, but here's the thing: look at DW and 1H weapons you CAN get. If the 1H's rating is > 1.33 x the DWs, your Unencumbrance will do better. If it's less than 1.33, your Unencumbrance will do worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Note 2: On using ratios:</STRONG> Pure ratios of "Ratings" and other "examine" data work for comparing weapons alone, but are, IMO, inadequate when the impact of arts such as Inspiration must be included in the comparison. I have chosen to use a fixed combat time of 208 seconds. There are probably other ways of doing this - but hey, I am the Editor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Note 3: On the damage info shown:</STRONG> for weapons it is as listed in the "examine" windows so you can identify it. However, where "examine" data shows I would have an average hit of 48 with my weapons, parsers show - over a long period of time - my average hit is 208 excluding Crits. So, if and where necessary we'll use an adjustment factor of 208/48 = 4.3 to get to (my) real world. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Note 4: On DPS buffs:</STRONG> The 4.3 multiplier number includes impact of dps buffs on melee. How many? No clue. But since the data comes from a successful full MoA T4 raid, probably representative. Overall dps during that raid was ~ 850. Yours will be different, but the conclusions should scale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Note 5: On Haste:</STRONG> Every Swashie carries some haste almost all the time. How much? I leave that to you. But, I provide data to adjust to 50% haste which assumes the only cap on haste is the generally agreed 100%, and not some minimum weapon delay. You can modify this depending on how you see the situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Melee</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>SW</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Weapon: Silver Sword of Rage (Rating 79.79, mean damage 64, 1.6 second delay)</DIV> <DIV>2. Time/Hits: 208 seconds, 1.6 delay = 130 hits and 93.6 extra (Double) attacks @64</DIV> <DIV>3. Damage/DPS: 14,310, 68.8 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>DW</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Weapons:</DIV> <DIV>Absolution (Rating 62.0, mean damage 49.5, 1.6 second delay) <BR>Adamantine Dragonfang (Rating 57.9, mean damage 46.5, 1.6 second delay).</DIV> <DIV>2. Time/Hits: 208 seconds, 1.6 delay = 130 hits @ 49.5, 130 hits @ 46.5</DIV> <DIV>3. Damage/DPS: 12,480, 60 dps</DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG>Comparison:<BR></STRONG>Unencumbrance melee > DW: 1,830, 8.8 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To adjust this to *my* real world (x 4.3) . . .<BR><STRONG>Unencumbrance melee > DW: 7,869, 37.8 dps</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG><U>Inspiration</U></STRONG><BR>Inspiration is a 13 second CA with a 3-minute recast. It procs an additional Daring Attack hit for every hit of the Primary weapon, including Double Attack. At Adept 3 the mean hit for Daring Attack is 373.5. Parser shows for me the average hit is 528. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In exp grinding with mythical continuous pulls, it would affect dps at most 7.2% (13/180) of the time. On the other extreme, if all fights were 26 seconds long with 2:34 or longer delay before the next fight, Inspiration could affect 50% of your dps. Clearly, neither is "true".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Inspiration time" can also be wasted. If you trigger it and a wizzie blows up your target, you could lose time finding the next target . . . 1 second or lots more if that was the last mob in the pull. If you hold off triggering it a bit to make sure you use it all, you can't repeat it as fast, and so you have again lost overall dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you use other CA's during Inspiration, you will lower the number of times it can proc any time you delay your primary weapon from triggering. If you don't use CAs, you are losing CA dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will also have various amounts of Haste during fights. Haste will increase the number of Double-Attacks, but also virtually guarnatee the loss of theoretical procs because of CA delay. And if you don't use CA's during Inspiration, you lose 13 seconds times perhaps 500 dps = 6,500 in CAs. But, you use far less power, so in long fights you have more CAs at the end. But maybe you have shards and hearts . . . and on and on and on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tradeoffs, decisions, skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let's start here . . . with what one "basic" Inspiration is worth as a 100% addition in our 208 second combat time:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SW: 13 sec, 1.6 delay, 8 hits + 5 Double Attacks, 13 * 528 = 6,864, 33 dps<BR>DW: 13 sec, 1.6 delay, 8 hits, 8 * 528 = 4,224, 20.3 dps<BR><STRONG>Diff: SW + 2,640, 12.7 dps</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you "spam" CA's (however you use them in normal combat) during Inspiration, you will not get 5 DA hits. If you don't "spam", you will trade Inspiration damage for CA damage . . . which is normally a very big portion of every Swashie's dps. If you are hasted . . . oh well . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>After re-reviewing all the factors, I'm going to include two full, basic Inspirations in my comparison. And provide no haste adjustment nor any CA loss adjustment. Feel free to disagree with me, and value yours differently. </STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people may devalue Inspiration as a specialty item, most useful in long fights where power is an issue, and will not build a toon around it. Others - including the "OMG it procs INSANE" crowd - will inflate its value for the peak dps it can provide. Just make sure you have looked at all the tradeoffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Hurricane</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Hurricane is a toggled CA that provides a 44% chance (Adept 3) of the primary weapon's Autoattack affecting multiple targets you are facing and who are in melee range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, how often is Hurricane effective? Hmmm. Multiple mobs, facing, and within melee range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assume you spend 33% of the time fighting a single mob, 33% a 2-mob, 34% a 3-mob encounter . . . and - for the moment - assume you ALWAYS have them ALL lined up in the frontal cone and within melee range (Hah!).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When facing 2- and 3- mob encounters, mobs die. So Hurricane will be useful:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- 0% of time on 1-mob x 33% = 0%<BR>- 50% of time on 2-mob (until one dies) x 33% = 17%<BR>- On 3-mob encounters will be useful on two mobs 33% ( x 33% = 12% x 2 mobs = 24%) and on one 33% ( x 33% = 11%) as mobs die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, it will be USEFUL if it procs on 0% + 17% + 24% + 11% = 52% of our 130 swings or 67.6 times. On those swings, it has a 44% chance to proc at a median hit of 64 for our SW vs 49.5 for our Absolution, that's </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- 67.6 (Useful hits) * .44 (Proc rate) * 14.5 (Damage difference) = 431 damage, or 2.1 dps.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>- Adjusted to "Real World": 431* 4.3 = 1,853 or 8.9 dps</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Weapon Procs?</STRONG> </U></DIV> <DIV>1-hander can of course have a proc which SHOULD fire on the second attack. But two DWs can have 2 procs that WILL fire. For the moment, I'm going to ignore weapon procs unless someone can tell me what happens, whether there is a significant upside for the WIS line. And how it occurs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Poison Procs: </U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Only off primary, normalized to 3 seconds. Doesn't fire again off 2nd primary attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Blackguard's Luck</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>A 13.9% chance of +30% melee damage is the same as a 4.1% increase in melee damage. I'll use 4% to account for non-melee non-crits and say this is a 4% increase in DPS overall. Now pick a number - what kind of Swashie are you? At 600dps this would add 4,992 damage or 24 dps (at 1000 dps it adds 8,320 damage or 40 dps).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll keep adjusting the summary that follows, as and if you folks correct/add to anything I've said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Effect of choosing Unencumbrance vs. standard DW:</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Unencumbrance/Freehand Reversal vs. DW: +7,869 : +37.8 dps<BR>- Add for 50% Haste: +3,935 : +18.9 dps<BR>Inspiration Double Attacks: +5,280 : +25.4 dps<BR>Hurricane: +1,853 : +8.9 dps<BR>- Add for 50% Haste: +927 : +4.5 dps<BR>Weapon Procs: Your call . . . loses possible 2nd proc<BR>Poison Procs: No change<BR>Weapon Stats: Your call . . . but generally loses</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Total:<BR>Unencumbrance/Freehand Reversal vs DW: 15,004 : 72.1 dps<BR>- Add for 50% Haste: 4,860 : 23.4 dps<BR>Total: +19,864 : +95.5 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Blackguard's Luck: at 850 dps ~= 34 dps</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG><U>Analysis</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Most of the damage increase is concentrated in weapon difference, and in Inspiration.</DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Weapon Difference:</U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>If you can't find a 1h weapon that has a rating ~20% better than the average of your two DW weapons, you will LOSE dps vs DW. Better than +20% up to 33% you will approach these numbers, scaled to your status. Above 33% you will exceed them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Inspiration:<BR></STRONG>Admittedly, this one bothers me, and I'm going to do some tests at some point. I do believe there is a net gain in dps, but I want to know more about the other side, the "loss" of CA dps that MAY be incurred to achieve these numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Blackguard's Luck:<BR></STRONG>OTOH, if your CA's are all at Adept 1 - and they are going to stay that way - you will NOT achieve this kind of performance from Blackguard's luck. You will get your 4% increase, but it would be much smaller especially in comparison to the RIGHT 1h weapon and Unecmbrance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Overall<BR></U></STRONG>This evaluates the effect of (nearly) 2 AA's vs 1 AA, so in that sense it isn't fair. But that <STRONG><EM>WAS</EM></STRONG> the goal. It's up to you to judge this compariosn, evaluate the alternatives, choose, and go kill.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Twobox on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:13 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Twobox on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:14 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Twobox on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:15 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 PM</span>

[Keldo]

Nice comparison - but you have 1 flaw.  The highest damage Swash useable 1h is far from 68.8 rating.  Right Hand of the High Priestess is the highest I have seen at 84.1, there are also many at 77.2 and the Claymore 1h reward is 80. Personally, I think the STR line is stronger than the WIS line, but this is not an issue for me as I have both.  With STR-5 Traumatic Swipe being such a vital debuff, I would lose WIS line before STR any time if I was forced. <div></div>

[Twobox]

<P>Sure enough, The Right Hand shows up when you know the name. And now several other higher rated weapons show up using advanced search.</P> <P>Thanks, I'll certainly pick other weapons and add them to the comparison.</P> <P>I agree about Traumatic Strike . . . but I'd like to isolate this "simple" DPS issue and put it to bed.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class=date_text>05-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 PM</span>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Mistake: if you have unencumberance you have the previous one, which is 20% double attack. So you have 72% double attack. First, if we want to compare for comparable damage, let's use two top-end weapons from the same quest off the items database. DPS is just (min + max)/(2*delay). Qeynos Rapier: 40.3 DPS Qeynos Cutlass: 30.3 DPS Note that the actual damage done doesn't matter, just the relative DPS for this calculation. Also the fact that they're fabled doesn't matter, all that matters is the ratio of one-hand to dual-wield is similar quality. This is theoretical, I'm not saying what's going to be the best DPS for your weapons that you have, but if any weapons bear out the ratio of one-hand to dual-wield that SoE wants, it's these two that come from the same quest. <u>Auto-Attack DPS</u>: 14% better with WIS line and one-hander than plain dual wieldDual Cutlass has 60.6 DPS, rapier with WIS has 40.3*1.72 = 69.3 DPS. This gives us a  69.3/60.6 = 1.14 ratio. <u>Hurricane DPS</u>: 33% better with WIS line and one-hander than plain dual wield when in use Hurricane only procs off one-hand, so the cutlass is procing off of just 30.3 DPS. So dual-wield does 30.3*(hurricane percent)*(number of mobs - 1). The rapier does 40.3*(Hurricane percent)*(number of mobs - 1). As long as there are multiple mobs, the ratio of one-hand to dual-wield is 40.3/30.3 = 1.33, or you should be doing 33% more damage with hurricane over standard dual wields. This is without hurricane procing off of the double hit, as I assume it doesn't. All this business about mobs dying and such is stretching it, I'm not sure I'm comfortable putting those ratios to how long you're in a multi-mob encounter and stuff like that. In a group when we're not in any danger of dying I often switch mobs to try and make sure they all go down evenly, anyway. <u>Inspired Daring</u>: 72% better with WIS line and one-hander than plain dual wield This is big for me, and it does pop off double attacks. I find Inspiration does a substantial amount of my damage even on single target fights, multiplying that by 1.72 is big. You also neglected haste. On any encounter of substance you should pop inspiration very close to 100%, which gives you a two times multiplier on the number of double attacks. <u>Haste and Damage:</u> You're ignoring Haste and Damage buffs. They'll multiply up to give the same ratio (i.e., if WIS is 15% better than regular dual wield than it'll still be with full haste and full Damage), but if you're looking to compare raw DPS, the increase it gives you will be proportionally bigger. In a decent raid group I wouldn't be surprised to see someone close to 100% haste, at least 50% Damage most of the time. In the stuff I did raw DPS is meaningless since I just pulled it off EQplayers, but if you want to do your same DPS calculations and compare them to, say, AGI with Avast Ye, well, Avast Ye's not going to benefit from haste or Damage at all. Likewise, Torporous and Traumatic actually see their relative DPS overall go down as Haste and Damage increase because you're missing more autoattack.<u>AE DPS</u>:One of the main roles I've had on groups and also raids is providing AE aggro control to the tank through our transfer. In small groups when I'm tanking, AEs are a primary method of crowd control. This utility is enhanced by a larger hurricane proc and also, like I said, useful on raids. <u>Other Stuff:</u> As far as I know, crit mechanics are still a little bit of a mystery. It's not a flat 30%, people say it works differently on CAs and auto-attack, etc. So I'm not going to try and come up with a calculation for STR 4. Anyway, here's my point: if you're going pure DPS, assuming no aggro problems and access to the best weapons, no stat difficulties or non-DPS procs, just pure damage, you're going to want WIS and STR in my mind. If you're interested in this for raiding (and otherwise, seriously, go for looks and playstyle, 'cause none of these are that huge), you'll almost certainly want STR5 and possibly STR2 (though STR2 is pretty weak on the debuff end, all things considered). If you're looking for nice weapons, one-hand means you only need the DKP and luck to get one slash and one pierce, and you'll be rolling against tanks primarily. For dual wield you need double the amount of weapons and you're rolling against fellow DPS. In either case, if you're looking at AA lines and just saying "I want to optimize my DPS," I think you've chosen the wrong class. We've been nerfed in DPS before, we might very well get nerfed again. It's the debuff and utility that remains, and, of course, ultimate style. The question for me, if I had to absolutely choose either WIS or STR, would be, is 10 or 20 DPS difference in optimal situations enough to influence me in one direction or another? When the lines are as different as STR or WIS in utility and style, I'd say probably not.<p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:58 AM</span>

[Twobox]

<P>Thanks for taking the time . . . it's late for me, and I won't be able to revisit this until Tuesday.</P> <P>However, I agree with the obvious factual corrections you've made - thanks. Your point on using the Qeynos Claymore's sounds good on the surface - will check if the ratios conform to those 1h and dw weapons that have been discovered to date, and will use the Claymore data if it seems relatively in line. After a quick glance, I probably  will disagree a bit on Hurricane.</P> <P>Since the numbers should scale, I agree with you that the "examine" data would be sufficient if it were available for all aspects of this comparison. That's why I started out using it. Unfortunately, I haven't thought of a way to calculate Blackguard's without using actual data, since it affects combat arts and I use total dps and percent-from-melee to calculate the impact. Absent another calculation, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with the 4.3 multiplier off the "examine" data.</P> <P>I also agree there are lots of other reasons for choosing AA's . . . I just want to put this simple DPS issue to bed in my own mind, and perhaps for others.  (The difference in dps is not likely to change my mind on what to choose either.) And - since this is just about the dps - style and a change of class will also remain separate lol.</P> <P><STRONG>BTW, what percentage of your fight time do you believe Inspiration is active?</STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Twobox on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 AM</span>

[SageGaspar]

Actually, I might be wrong on inspired daring. Dunno. Now that I think about it I think I just took someone else's word on it, so I went to try it today and I couldn't really be sure. It's hard for me to tell what's a double attack and what's just me hitting twice fast, I'll have to take another look later.<div></div>

[Rokjin]

<P>I did alot of this calculation in more simple terms a while back.. but you can look at it from a purely conceptual standpoint, without resorting to in-game weapons.</P> <P>The developers have stated that an 'equal level' 1H will do 75% of the auto-attack damage of DW. This means DW will do 33% more auto-attack DPS on average.</P> <P>With a 72% double attack chance, ignoring eveyrthing BUT auto-attack.. You get this:</P> <P>0.75*1.72 = 1.29 or 129%.. So 1H will give a 29% boost in auto-attack damage with 72% double attack.</P> <P>Assuming a 25/75 auto-attack to CA ratio of damage, that gives a 7.25% boost in overall damage. This 25/75 ratio is what will widely vary depending on groups, PVP, raids, etc. Most Swashbucklers I think are closer to a 33/66 ratio, which would give a 8.57% boost in overall damage.</P> <P>Now comparing that to only the STR Crit increase, which for purposes of this I will assume is a straight 30% damage increase to any ability, gives a 4.17% boost to the damage of all of your abilities.</P> <P>So regardless of your auto-attack to CA ratio of damage, you will get a 4.17% boost to DPS.</P> <P>What is interesting is if your auto-attack to CA damage ratio is 15/85, then Wisdom and STR are equal in pure DPS boost.</P> <P>Looking just from that pure conceptual perspective, yes WIS does give more pure DPS then STR line IF your Auto-attack to CA damage ratio is higher then 15/85. Unfortunately we are ignoring a lot of factors here which will affect things. Hurricane, Inspiration, Poisons, the loss of stats from the wisdom required off-hand, smaller selection of weapons.</P> <P>Wisdom will also obviously be better for long-term fights where you run out of power and only auto-attack, while STR will be much better for burst damage in the short term.</P> <P>Overall, I do believe Wisdom does edge out STR in terms of gain/per point in terms of pure DPS. This is the way it should be, since there are inherent penalties in taking the Wisdom line, while there are no real penalties for taking the STR line. Most of the 'additional' proc bonuses of the Wisdom line also were taken out in the latest patch. I haven't fully tested, and it is quite hard to test whether Hurricane can be still be procced twice off of Double attacks, and whether Inspiration also can be, but poisons definitely now do not proc on double attacks. Also worth testing is whether our Offensive stance Interrupt Proc still does or does not proc off of Double Attacks.</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<p>The developers have stated that an 'equal level' 1H will do 75% of the auto-attack damage of DW. This means DW will do 33% more auto-attack DPS on average.</p> <p>With a 72% double attack chance, ignoring eveyrthing BUT auto-attack.. You get this:</p> <p>0.75*1.72 = 1.29 or 129%.. So 1H will give a 29% boost in auto-attack damage with 72% double attack.</p><hr></blockquote>I think maybe they meant a single DW will do 75% of the auto-attack damage of 1H, which actually was born out in my calculations and produces an extra 66% more auto-attack DPS.This calculation then becomes 1.72 DPS for one-hander and .75*2 = 1.5 DPS for dual-wield, which gives you the 1.72/1.5 = 1.15, or very close to 14% advantage that I mentioned.Also, some other examples:Dark fury sword vs saber, 76.6% ratio (no dual wield, just by itself).Prismatic longsword vs prismatic swiftblade, 75.4% ratio, just by themselves.</div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 PM</span>

[Twobox]

<P><STRONG><U>BOOKMARK #1 POST.</U></STRONG> <STRONG><EM>Original post significantly changed</EM> </STRONG>as a result of comments to this point.</P> <P>Some comments on previous posts:</P> <P> </P> <P>First, <STRONG><EM>thanks</EM></STRONG> for the cooperation, contributions . . . and tone. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><STRONG><U>SageGaspar:</U></STRONG> Let me know your discoveries on Inspiration - as you can see from the revisions, I'm still nervous about it.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Rokjin:</U></STRONG> Sometimes the simple calculations serve well - but in this case I think things are more complicated. Whe I read some of the earlier threads and saw things like "1/3 rd higher" my reaction was always ".33 x 0 = 0" lol. Your comment about "WIS should be better, you have to give up something" is fair and probably true. Might be easier to evaluate after we thrash this out.</P> <P><STRONG><U>SageGaspar:</U></STRONG> Yes, after looking at some weapons until I went bleary eyed, I can see the "intent" 75% or 1.33, however one needs to express it. But frankly if you look at what weapons have been discovered, and where - it seems easier to grab a pair of DWs than an SW with a x 1.33 rating. At least at the moment, and particularly for non-raiders. But since I could be wrong about that impression, I chose a real weapon with1.331 times the base rating of my own, and figured people could adjust from there - as I recommend they do. (The 20% number is a guess - its close - some time I will go back and check that.)</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Twobox on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:54 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[Rokjin]

<DIV>It's also worth noting that the Damage Rating of a weapon is not it's actual damage rating. You can't compare a 1H with 50 DR to a single Dual-wield with 50 DR and say they will do equal damage. It has been stated by SoE that the Damage Ratings are there to compare the 'relative' damage of weapons within a class, but are not accurate when comparing cross class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the Qeynos reward comparison, we have the 2H having 101.1 DR, the DW having 60.6 DR and the 1H having 80.9 DR.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have the original comments from SoE on this, but they had stated quite clearly that the damage done (NOT Damage Rating which does NOT equal DPS) by 1H weapons was formulated to be exactly 75% of DW or 2H, with equivalent weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at the full line up, DW (if it was possible to have 2 DW's from the Claymore line) would have 121.2 DR, 2H would have 101.1 DR and 1H has 80.9 DR.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You cannot assume that DR is equal to DPS, since then we would have any dual-wield setup doing 20% more damage then the 2H setup. This is known to not be true since the classes that can both DW and use 2H (for example Berserkers and Brawlers), do not get a 20% damage boost from using 2h compared to DW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll run some tests to compare SW to DW damage without any AA's (ie: cancelling out my WIS benefits by using a shield) and post the parses here later.</DIV>

[Rokjin]

<DIV>Okay, here is the parse. NO AA's (used a one hander + shield and two dual-wields which cancelled out the WIS points I have).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No Combat Abilities were used, no combat haste/dps modifiers,  no procs of any kind. Used only Defensive Stance (effective 333 Slashing skill). STR was at 325 throughout entire test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mobs used for the test were "a juvenile lava crawler" in Lavastorm, all level 43 and ^^^ ups, with no debuffs on them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thus this provides a direct baseline comparison for 1H vs DW damage.</DIV> <DIV>Weapons used were: indium assault axe and 2x indium spatha. Both vendor bought. The 1H axe has 31.9 DR, the DWs have 23.9 DR each, giving a total DR of 47.8.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1000 hits with each weapon, delay of all weapons used is 1.6.  2000 Hits were used for Dual-wield, since that is equivalent to 1000 hits of the 1H.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only other thing that is hitting the mobs other then auto-attack are ripostes. Since I am taking a set number of hits and will be normalizing that amount to a DPS, the extra attacks from ripostes do not skew the results. I also have the actual logs if someone else wants to review them, I can send them to you. Parsing was done with ACT version 1.81.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Results from 1H (31.9 DR, 1.6 delay, 1000 hits)</DIV> <DIV>Total damage: 70,394</DIV> <DIV>Min hit: 32</DIV> <DIV>Average Hit: 70.39</DIV> <DIV>Max Hit: 161</DIV> <DIV># of Crits: 112</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This gives almost exactly 44.0 DPS, and a 1.12% crit rate, which is in line with the default for all characters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Results from DW(23.9*2 DR (47.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, 1.6 delay, 2000 hits)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Total damage: 105,204</DIV> <DIV>Min hit: 24</DIV> <DIV>Average Hit: 52.51</DIV> <DIV>Max Hit: 158</DIV> <DIV># of Crits: 197</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This gives 65.6 DPS, and a 0.985% crit rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, interestingly enough, pure uninterrupted auto-attack, with nothing else, Dual Wield does ~50% more damage then 1H. It seems also that the Damage Rating does actually reflect pure auto-attack DPS, as the DR for the two DW's is also 50% higher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it seems that I was actually wrong, for pure auto-attack, the damage ratings are accurate. It would be interesting to test 2H also in comparison to this, but unfortunately all the two handed weapons of the same level are non-usable by scouts. However extrapolating it, IF the DR is accurate across all weapon types for purposes of auto-attack, then the 2H from the same merchant (39.9 DR) should do exactly 33% more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems then that DW is heavily overcompensated in terms of pure auto-attack damage. Most likely to make up for the extra penalties associated with 'losing' auto-attacks to CA usage. The devs have stated before they were boosting DW to compensate for that exact reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in short, it seems actually that looking purely at auto-attack, with no CA usage, Wisdom DA damage boost is only 13.52% over pure DW with no AA's. Which for pure auto-attack purposes still outdoes both AGI and STR in terms of pure DPS, but not by as much as I had thought. (Looking only at 100% auto-attack damage, no CA usage at all). With CA usage, things get much more complicated, as then we have to lower the auto-attack DPS by some undetermined amount, based on CA usage, timing, etc.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Rokjin on <span class=date_text>05-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div> As far as I know, crit mechanics are still a little bit of a mystery. It's not a flat 30%, people say it works differently on CAs and auto-attack, etc. So I'm not going to try and come up with a calculation for STR 4.<hr></blockquote>I cant prove anything, but this is how I believe criticals work:Lets say you have a weapon with a damage spread of 100-300. You then swing it 9 times, and on average your hits would look something like this:100125150175200225250275300Now, lets say you have a 100% chance to crit and do so on all hits. The multiplier 1.3 has been mentioned by even developers, so I'll use it here:100   100 * 1.3 = 130125   125 * 1.3 = 163150   150 * 1.3 = 195175   175 * 1.3 = 228200   200 * 1.3 = 260 225   225 * 1.3 = 293250   250 * 1.3 = 325275   275 * 1.3 = 358300   300 * 1.3 = 390So your crits would vary between 130-390. Things is though, crits can only vary between (max listed damage + 1) and (max listed damage * 1.3). This again has been stated by developers, and can easily be observed and confirmed. So what if any crits lower than (max listed damage + 1) automatically gets boosted to just that, (max listed damage + 1)?100   100 * 1.3 = 130    -->  301125   125 * 1.3 = 163    -->  301150   150 * 1.3 = 195    -->  301 175   175 * 1.3 = 228    -->  301200   200 * 1.3 = 260    -->  301225   225 * 1.3 = 293    -->  301250   250 * 1.3 = 325    -->  325275   275 * 1.3 = 358    -->  358300   300 * 1.3 = 390    -->  390Your crits would now all be in the 'valid' range, (max listed damage + 1) - (max listed damage * 1.3). Again, I cant prove this is what happens. But if you take a weapon with such a damage spread (where max damage = min damage * 3) and observe a large test sample of criticals, you will likely find that about 66% of the criticals hit for (max listed damage + 1), and the rest are evenly spread between that and (max listed damage * 1.3). This is the same thing my theoretical  example showed too, 66% will hit for (max listed damage + 1). Coinscidence? Maybe, maybe not.Now, if this would be how things work, what effect would it have? For one, saying a crit adds 30% damage would not be giving it enough credit. Depending on damage spread (and initial damage roll) of the attack that struck critically, you could be looking at up to 300% damage bonus (100 dmg --> 301 dmg). For a weapon with the 'traditional' damage spread (1*X - 3*X), a critical would on average work out to add about 60% damage. For combat arts and spells, which normally have a smaller damage spread than weapons, the bonus would be closer to 30% (but still above it).But once again, this is just my speculation of how things work. </div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<div><div> </div> <div>It seems then that DW is heavily overcompensated in terms of pure auto-attack damage. Most likely to make up for the extra penalties associated with 'losing' auto-attacks to CA usage. The devs have stated before they were boosting DW to compensate for that exact reason.</div> <div> </div> <div>So in short, it seems actually that looking purely at auto-attack, with no CA usage, Wisdom DA damage boost is only 13.52% over pure DW with no AA's. Which for pure auto-attack purposes still outdoes both AGI and STR in terms of pure DPS, but not by as much as I had thought. (Looking only at 100% auto-attack damage, no CA usage at all). With CA usage, things get much more complicated, as then we have to lower the auto-attack DPS by some undetermined amount, based on CA usage, timing, etc.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Rokjin on <span class="date_text">05-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I actually calculated the DPS of the weapons straight from the weapons themselves, the good old fashioned way. From what I've seen damage rating is usually about twice the DPS. I think it's just (min+max)/delay for the most part, though it's very slightly off from that sometimes (maybe from truncating decimal places).Anyway, it's nice to see some parser confirmation on the 14% <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> verydanger wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Things is though, crits can only vary between (max listed damage + 1) and (max listed damage * 1.3). This again has been stated by developers, and can easily be observed and confirmed. So what if any crits lower than (max listed damage + 1) automatically gets boosted to just that, (max listed damage + 1)?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I know the post you are referring to. Thing is, both me and my friends have seen large numbers of crits that are BELOW max listed damage. And yes, we are considering mitigation/buffs/debuffs/etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why I take 30% bonus damage on crits as a baseline as opposed to the max listed damage thing, since that doesn't actually seem to apply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I even have proof from the logs of the previous parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One-handed Indium Assault axe, no buffs on myself except defensive stance and stat buff, no debuffs on mob, auto-attack damage only:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1147203101)[Tue May 09 15:31:41 2006] YOU hit a juvenile lava crawler for 121 points of slashing damage.<BR>(1147203102)[Tue May 09 15:31:42 2006] YOU hit a juvenile lava crawler for 36 points of slashing damage.<BR>(1147203104)[Tue May 09 15:31:44 2006] YOU hit a juvenile lava crawler for 54 points of slashing damage.<BR>(1147203104)[Tue May 09 15:31:44 2006] a juvenile lava crawler tries to crush YOU, but YOU riposte.<BR>(1147203104)[Tue May 09 15:31:44 2006] YOU hit a juvenile lava crawler for 87 points of slashing damage.<BR>(1147203105)[Tue May 09 15:31:45 2006] YOU critically hit a juvenile lava crawler for 97 points of slashing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here, we see a Critical hit, that does 97 damage. And above it, you can see the first hit in the sequence that is NOT a crit, did 121 points of slashing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking more at the log, there are a number of hits ranging all the way up to 125 without a critical. The biggest Critical hit is 161. It's interesting to note that 124*1.3 is 161.2, about confirming that crit hits are a 30% multiplier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether they also boost your damage to max listed though is very doubtful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at it in more detail though, I find a VERY large number of crits hit for exactly 97. There are no crits below that. 97 / 1.3 (to reverse the effect a crit would have) gives 74.6. Which is roughly near the average of the hits. So I could believe that crit hits always raise damage to atleast average damage, but definitely not max. That or we are seeing some other mechanic at work here, something like crushing blows or something due to the level difference, that account for the non-critical hits that are above critical damage. If that is occuring though, there is no message to indicate that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rokjin on <span class=date_text>05-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 PM</span>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<div>I know the post you are referring to. Thing is, both me and my friends have seen large numbers of crits that are BELOW max listed damage. And yes, we are considering mitigation/buffs/debuffs/etc.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Hrrrm, now I'm confused. I must say I have never observed crits hitting for below max listed damage, and I have spent quite a lot of time testing these things. Some days ago I did an extensive test and observed 138 straight criticals in the range (max listed damage + 1) to (max listed damage * 1.3). Today I repeated the test, with a setup more similar to yours:I used a handcrafted feyiron battle axe (1H, no double attack as I dont have WIS line)I removed all buffs/procs from myself, and made sure the mobs I fought didnt debuff/buff eitherI observed ripostes and removed them from the equationI (alone) fought grey mobs in SS with pure autoattack, anything from down-arrows to triple-upsI am level 70 and have Blackguard's Luck at rank 8 (most likely irrelevant to the test)The results were the same as always for me. About 66% of all crits will be (max normal hit + 1), the rest evenly spread between that and (max normal hit * 1.3). I did at times hit non-critically for higher damage than the lowest critical, but those hits were always ripostes. Are you positive this wasnt the case for you also? Also, could it be that you forgot to take off an imbued STR ring? If you were to use my theory as a ground assumption, the +26% DPS and +23 STR from the ring buff at least mathematically fits in to explain the discrepancy between our results.</div>

[Rokjin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> verydanger wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rokjin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I know the post you are referring to. Thing is, both me and my friends have seen large numbers of crits that are BELOW max listed damage. And yes, we are considering mitigation/buffs/debuffs/etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> <BR>The results were the same as always for me. About 66% of all crits will be (max normal hit + 1), the rest evenly spread between that and (max normal hit * 1.3). I did at times hit non-critically for higher damage than the lowest critical, but those hits were always ripostes. Are you positive this wasnt the case for you also? <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, yes, I remember most(probably all) of the 97 damage crits were ripostes. There is a big gap in crits from 97  I think Ripostes should behave identical to auto-attack, but it may be possible it does not.</P> <P>Yes, I did account for the ring (by removing it for the duration of all the parsing), but with Ripostes taken out, then yes, Crits behaved in the way you describe..<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Rokjin on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:05 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rokjin on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 PM</span>

[Rokjin]

<DIV>I did a ton of analysis on this morning, and came up with exact formulas for damage bonuses from crit chance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See this post:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=11806" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=11806</A></DIV>