Live Update 24: Swashy Discussion

[Luk]

<DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=102219" target=_blank>Live Update 24: Control Changes</A></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>Things I see as being a worry</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>if Brazening is changed (2.5 second proposed duration, Example: abilities with Knockdown effects that stunned for 4 seconds have been reduced to 2.5 seconds), this will effect our solo ability, however will be nice to have a stun that works on epics</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>duration and recast of our mezz, will it be staying at the same ratio 25 sec duration, 30 sec recast, hopefully it will be more along the lines of every other mezz in the game which can be kept up contastantly.</SPAN></DIV><p>Message Edited by Licit on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Keldo]

Actually only enchanter spells will work on epics, think Moorgard posted this. Personally I was intrigued by the comment of stuns being better balanced between subclasses - cuz as we all know brigands get a lot of stuns and we get only 1 besides cheap shot. While it will hurt my ability to solo (heroics, mostly) its good for the game - all heroic content is basically trivial because of all the stuns in the game.  In order to make anything hard (halls of fate, for example) they have to make mobs immune to stun /mez etc which isn't fair to enchanters.  I think it will be a good move in the long run. I am looking forward to it, adds a lot of potential depth. <div></div>

[psYke]

<DIV>daayum. another change. soe like a fat kid deciding wut ice cream to eat.</DIV>

[Ghartan]

No doubt this will make things harder to solo with the loss of stun time.But I have to agree with the comments that right now the game was headed in a bad spiral ... making mobs harder and harder to counter the overpowerful chain stunning a full group can do. Killing heroic encounters with a group was trivial.If the game doesnt do something now ... we will end up with the problems that EQ1 had with the imbalance caused by Complete Heal spells.As much as I hate seeing us take a hit ... it is nice that enchanters are getting a real role back and I think it will be better for the long run for the game.<div></div>

[Verit]

Theses two changes will be minor for Swashs. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Brazening line is not very usefull. The stealth requierement took too much time to cast stealth + brazening. U can do more dmg in autoattack for the same period. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Boot dagger change the hand if u are not spec WIZ line (like i said in an another thread i dont see what we can take otherwise WIZ).Mez line. Oh? We have one?No just to be seriously its not very class defined for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>I think devs could even remove a lot of control spell in all classes to improve a bit the enchanters. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Severed Ha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=102219" target=_blank>Live Update 24: Control Changes</A></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>Things I see as being a worry</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>if Brazening is changed (2.5 second proposed duration, Example: abilities with Knockdown effects that stunned for 4 seconds have been reduced to 2.5 seconds), this will effect our solo ability, however will be nice to have a stun that works on epics</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>duration and recast of our mezz, will it be staying at the same ratio 25 sec duration, 30 sec recast, hopefully it will be more along the lines of every other mezz in the game which can be kept up contastantly.</SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Licit on <SPAN class=date_text>05-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont know if you are talking about our stun's or the Enchanters.. But from if you thinking it was ours.. Then nope not gonna happen.. Re-read the Control Changes.. The only ones that will be able to Stun/Stifle Epic's will be Enchanters and no others.  This will be at a reduced effect but will be useable non-the less.</P> <P>As for out own lines such as the Brazening.. That sucks for the Soloer mainly over a constant grouper.. As with a Soloer they are looking for the fastest way to kill a mob.. This will just make it abit more of a hassle.. Instead of being able to get off all 4 of our Back attacks(including Brazening) we will be reduced to getting off probly just 2.. maybe 3 at best depending on the timing.. . Although the other thing is also that Stun's will last there full duration against all mobs(other then Epics...) so that will allow us to use Cheap shot better against heriocs where it use to be near useless.  Allowing for maybe 2 back attacks as opposed to just 1.  This will also help in groups when you happen to see the fighter taking a beating and the healer doing what they can to keep him/her up.. Hit cheap shot.. It may only last a few seconds but thats one more heal then what you had before and also less damage during that time.  Over all though we will need to see how this all comes out in the end..</P>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Verityn wrote:<BR>Theses two changes will be minor for Swashs. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Brazening line is not very usefull. <P>...</P> <P>Mez line. Oh? We have one?<BR>No just to be seriously its not very class defined for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Are you playing the same class as me? Seriously? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>If you think Brazening is not useful and are barely aware of our mez, apparently you have a <STRONG>vastly</STRONG> different playstyle to mine!</P> <P>Brazening is incredibly useful. I specifically took Boot Dagger <EM>for </EM>Brazening. Almost halving the stun time will make a pretty different big to both my soloing and my group playstyle.</P> <P> </P> <P>Personally I think the ability to chain-stun primary targets is <U>not</U> the major problem with heroic content, especially given how many multi-mob encounters there are. The major problem throughout the game has always seemed to be a distinct lack of HPs on anything but named mobs.</P> <P>Regardless of group stun ability, I have never regarded a yellow con ^^^ as a significant challenge for a group of 3 or more people, because you can tear it down so fast even with moderate DPS. Will a full group, a yellow heroic mob is basically trivial -- it barely lasts seconds. Heck, two yellow ^^^ mobs at the same time are rarely an issue. In a group of similar level characters, my defiler wastes power throwing completely unnecessary DoTs while we're dealing with 2 or more heroic encounters, because power is never an issue, the mobs never last long enough for it to become one. The only worry he ever has is the ability to keep up with spike damage, and enchanters will never be able to remove that risk completely (because it would make a priest's role almost redundant). Same is true of multi-mob encounters where you couldn't keep everything chain stunned without an enchanter anyway -- things just die too fast.</P> <P>It's not the control abilities of non-enchanter classes that's the issue, it's the insane PC DPS:mob HP ratio. Look at sorcerers: half the complaint they have with their DPS is that they simply can't get spells off before the mob dies in most group fights. That has nothing to do with the damage being taken by the tank due to overpowered group CC ability, it has everything to do with fights being too darn short. I'm not looking for epic 2-3 minute fights per mob (as was occasionally the case in EQ1), but no yellow ^^^ should ever last less than 10 seconds to a full group, and the average should certainly be longer than 20 seconds.</P> <P>I've only played an enchanter to the high 20s, but the only reason he ever felt useless in a group was because the primary target mobs were lasting an insignificant length of time, <STRONG>not</STRONG> because everyone else was stunning and CCing too well, <STRONG>not</STRONG> because the tank was taking too little damage while the mob was alive.</P> <P>Enchanters already have their niche: extended mezzes, full encounter mez, extended stuns/stifles/"dazes" ... but the rest of the game mechanics simply don't allow space for that niche. What's the point in having a 12 second stun on a 30 sec recast when each heroic mob lasts no longer than 8 seconds? All the subclasses as a whole already have the single best CC skill available: making things dead before they can do anything.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving enchanters a valid role because they've had a seriously rough time of it. If my illusionist wasn't so unfulfilling to play, I'd bring him out more often. But I really don't think nerfing stuns and knockdowns on <U>every</U> other class is going to make any difference whatsoever to the enchanter's role in a group. Instead, "Heroic" actually needs to <EM>mean</EM> something. A mob of <EM>higher</EM> level that's designed to be fought by a full group should not be lasting bare seconds before it dies.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, that was a lot of babble for a very simple point. Non-enchanter CC isn't the issue that's preventing enchanter from filling their niche, it's the speed of fights.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit: somehow chopped off the end of a sentence</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 AM</span>

[the flu]

I think I agree with overflow- the biggest problem chanters face in this game is that CC in any form is useless, outside of very situational uses and certain encounters. Every class has at least one ae, most have 2 or 3. There's no point in mezzing if your groups normal course of attacks will either break the mez, or will be completely negated becasue targets are excluded from non directed damage.I'm waiting to see numbers on brazening, dashing swathe and cheap shot. I don't usually hunt above my level solo, so the mez isnt' a concern of mine, but the other stuns and knockdowns we get could be cause for a major rethink.<div></div>

[Sadaen]

Boot Dagger and Brazening are huge if you are using them. That stun with cheap shot gives healers plenty of time to catch up to a flurry or whatever drops a tank down to red. It can and has many times saved me and my group from a wipe.

[the flu]

<div></div>More on the changes to non chanter cc (doesnt' sound to bad for us so far, all things considered):<hr size="2" width="100%"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=72348" target="_blank"><span>Lockeye</span></a><span> Game DesignerPosts: 123Registered: 11-21-2004 </span><img src="../../i/p.gif" alt="" border="0" height="8" width="150"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=72348" target="_blank"><img src="../i/icons/EQ2/mage.gif" alt="Lockeye" border="0" height="70" width="70"></a><p><span>Reply <a href="message?board.id=combat&message.id=102398#M102398" target="_blank">146</a> of 160 </span><img src="../../i/p.gif" height="6" width="1"><span>Viewed 435 times</span></p><img src="../../i/p.gif" alt="" border="0" height="1" width="1"><div>Soloing pre-50 and post-50: With this update, knockback durations are all set to 1.5s and 2.5s.</div><div> </div><div>Before the update, all pre-level 50 knockback durations were 1.5s and 3s.</div><div>Before the update, all post-level 50 knockback durations were boosted to 2s and 4s.</div><div> </div><div>Pre-level 50 soloing with knockbacks will be very much like it was before the update. Post-50 knockback duration increases are part of the stun-locking problem. Now they will have a consistent duration across all levels, so that how a class performed soloing with their knockbacks before level 50 should be similar to how they perform post 50.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations:</div><div> </div><div><div>Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only.</div><div> </div><div>Cheap Shot: minimum 2s duration is not changed.</div></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:07 AM</span></p><div>===========================Jared SweattEverQuest II Spells and Combat Designer</div><div></div>

[Zygwen]

Keep in mind that they can make combat arts behave differently depending on the target. Cheap shot for example behaves differently if the mob is No up arrows, versus one or more up arrows versus epic. If they do this change correctly, it should not affect our ability to solo no up arrow mobs. They intent to make these changes for group and epic encounters. Stunlocking is a cheese tactic but we like our cheese. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thing is, stunlocking on heroics and epics don't make them very heroic or epic. As a quick fix they tried to make epics immune to stun. Actually, they didn't make epics immune to stun, what they really did was try to change all stun combat arts so that they didn't stun epics. They forgot about stun poisons so stun poisons became the cheese tactic of choice till they nerfed that too. They are now going back and fixing it properly. I for one am glad they are fixing things properly rather than leaving a bandaid solution in and forgetting about it. <div></div>

[Carna]

The problem for the Brigand is we get a couple of stuns instead of Mez.

[Krontak]

<P>A change to brazening is gonna seriously cramp my playstyle.  I rely on this heavily to get in a few backstabs in mid fight when they are all up, not to mention to start out a fight with this is a great way to get off many of your big debuffs off before taking too much damage.  If they are doing this to get rid of chain stunning that's nutz.  Not everyone teams up with a brig/bruiser or some other big stunn'er every group. </P> <P>I consider myself fairly new to mmorg's or whatever the abbreviation is.  Played eq1 for about 3 months b4 eq2 came out then switched.  Is this normal as I've experienced in eq2 to change class defining skills every month forcing everyone to change thier playstyle/equipment to account for some fly by the seat of thier pants decision making from the developers?</P>

[Terron]

This is certainly not a "fly by the seat of their pants" decision. They have obvously considered it a lot. They have announced it, before it has been put in test, and it will not be going live until after it has been tested. It is certainly normal in eq2 to have to continually adjust your playstyle.  I haven't played any other MMORPG. <div></div>

[Wargod1968]

<P>Yes, it is normal in MMORPGs for classes to change, sometimes significantly, during the course of a game's life. EQ1 had a lot of changes in its first couple years - hybrid classes in particular.</P> <P>Same in City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, etc.</P> <P>However, nothing excuses the changes made in Star Wars Galaxies, which is beyond ludicrous.</P>

[Krontak]

<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Krontak on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 AM</span>

[Luk]

on test now<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127" target=_blank><span class="navbar_text">Test Update #24: May 10, 2006</span></a><div></div>

[Hammerhead70]

nice

[Tyr]

<blockquote><hr>Licit wrote:on test now<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127" target="_blank"><span class="navbar_text">Test Update #24: May 10, 2006</span></a><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm suprised that this is actually slipping by unnoticed... along with the changes to CROWD CONTROL...Quote from TU#24: "*** Gameplay *** - You are no longer limited to engaging 5 encounters."I'm thinking that not too many people are taking this into account... I mean, how do you make an encounter harder???1) Add hps to the mob and make him hit harderor2) Add more mobs to the encounter.I'm suprised we don't see more encounters with more than 3-4 mobs... and now with this limitation being gone... all hail the almighty AE groups!!!!forget soloing... ae groups are gonna be the way to go.. til those get nerfed [Removed for Content] <div></div>

[classcfirewor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Garosantith wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR>on test now<BR><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=127" target=_blank><SPAN class=navbar_text>Test Update #24: May 10, 2006</SPAN></A><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I'm suprised that this is actually slipping by unnoticed... along with the changes to CROWD CONTROL...<BR><BR><BR><BR>Quote from TU#24: "*** Gameplay *** - You are no longer limited to engaging 5 encounters."<BR><BR><BR><BR>I'm thinking that not too many people are taking this into account... I mean, how do you make an encounter harder???<BR><BR>1) Add hps to the mob and make him hit harder<BR><BR>or<BR><BR>2) Add more mobs to the encounter.<BR><BR>I'm suprised we don't see more encounters with more than 3-4 mobs... and now with this limitation being gone... all hail the almighty AE groups!!!!<BR><BR><BR>forget soloing... ae groups are gonna be the way to go.. til those get nerfed [Removed for Content] <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Each cluster of creatures, you target one and they all get highlighted, are a single encounter (mob).  It doesn't matter if there are 12 or 10 creatures, it still counts as one encounter.   In the past if you tried to engage more then 5 encounters you would get a message that said something like, "You can not attack your target at this time"  I learned this when trying to solo through the old AQ ring events.   Now you will be able to pull a whole dungeon presumably.  </P> <P>So yes AE ftw!</P>

[Luk]

gogo berzerka rampage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Purg]

pbaoe only hits 8 targets in most cases <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Foolsfolly]

Of course our En Garde can kill much more than 8 targets simultaneously, but that isn't good for much more than wiping out greys =)<div></div>