Parses?

[AegisCrown]

<DIV>Can anyone post definative parsesw/ and w/o the wisdom line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please and thank you</DIV>

[m0ya]

<DIV>I didn't see much HUGE difference yet.... will wait for tommorrow night raid tho... but what I can tell you is Hurricane is barely procing anymore... hehehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit : Poisons proc less also.</DIV><p>Message Edited by m0ya on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Debunkt]

<P>Yep, very interested in the outcome of this as well. In particular if Keldoth can redo the same tests on Perdition, to keep the same testing grounds pre and post change.</P> <P>I know it is minor but if weapon procs no longer proc off DA, I'm going to respec. They should proc because of the way it works with DW - both hands proc. If they don't allow that it is just a poor implentation. </P>

[Scort]

I respec'd and put in 4,4,4,4,8 and I only saw about a 50-100 dps gain over being Inte spec'd and dual wielding.It seems you have to pretty much dump all your points into the wis line to get an great benefit from it.I don't have parses but, just from what I personally saw with my toon.The new nerf will make it even worst.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Keldo]

lets see what did I post originally - Auto attack was 391 DPS (450 str) Pre-Nerf Proc DPS with - Interrupt ad3, Caustic Poison, Frostwrath, Furious Onslaught - 225 DPS Total DPS 616 Dual Wield auto was 271 DPS (470 str) Dual wield Proc DPS (unchanged) - with same procs was 166 Total DPS 437 Projected DPS with new system was 545 Here's some data Trial 1, Katsuki vs Perdition (4:46) Melee - 371 DPS Procs - 155 DPS Total - 526 DPS Trial 2, Katsuki vs Perdition (4:30) Melee - 425 DPS Procs - 134 DPS Total -  559 DPS Trial 3, Katsuki vs Perdition (4:40) Melee - 401 DPS Procs - 157 DPS Total - 558 DPS Dual wield retest Melee - 301 DPS Procs - 141 DPS Total - 442 DPS Dual wield weapons used - Sword of Four Winds (52) Grizzlefazzle (53) - 468 STR 1h used - Frostwrath (77) - 439 STR Poison used - Caustic Poison (450 dmg with my int) <div></div>

[Debunkt]

<P>Thanks for the numbers Keldoth. It is just close enough to make me think on it a bit longer. :smileyhappy:</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scortch wrote:<BR>I respec'd and put in 4,4,4,4,8 and I only saw about a 50-100 dps gain over being Inte spec'd and dual wielding.<BR><BR>It seems you have to pretty much dump all your points into the wis line to get an great benefit from it.<BR><BR>I don't have parses but, just from what I personally saw with my toon.<BR><BR>The new nerf will make it even worst. <P>Message Edited by Scortch on <SPAN class=date_text>05-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you were wanting to max the dps part of the wis line, dump 8 points in the second to last ability and skip Coule altogether. The way you went above kinda gimped yourself by not maxing out DA. This is only if you're trying to see how much extra dps you could get out of it.</P>

[Keldo]

Also, Inspiration procs on double attacks still, other procs seem to be nerfed.  Must be intentional? <div></div>

[Scort]

Keldoth, what was the AA point usage when you did those test?Yea, I only put the standard 4,4,4,4,8 because I wanted the extra accuracy and wanted to see what it was going ot be like if I did wis line and able ot have another full line also.

[Keldo]

My AA path is 4-5-4-8 WIS 4-4-4-8-8 STR I had lunge reversal turned off for the tests. <div></div>

[Drelar]

<DIV>Okay so what conclusion are we coming to? Is this fix a killer of the WIS line or can we live with it? I'm currently STA for leveling purposes but had planned on switching to WIS later on. People had been crying over the fix and it had me thinking I would have to focus my efforts elsewhere. So what's the verdict so far?</DIV>

[Keldo]

There is really only 1 obvious choice for rogues - STR line, nothing negative, nothing useless, in my opinion. The rest comes down to playstyle: - for solo / small group, STA is a great choice - if you have trouble with aggro generation or enjoy the ability to prevent equipment damage / death, INT is a great choice - if you want to only invest in 1 weapon instead of 2 and enjoy a DPS increase of 20-25% in trade for no off hand, WIS is a great choice - If you enjoy being light on your feet, AGI is a good choice If pure DPS is a concern, your choice is still the WIS line.  No other lines offer a DPS increase which can compare with WIS.<div></div>

[Rokjin]

<P>Verdict is same as before.</P> <P> </P> <P>Wisdom line is still a straight almost 30% increase to auto-attack DPS on paper, not counting any additional procs from Double Attacks. This roughly 30% increase in auto attack damage corresponds to what most people have been parsing in DW vs 1h Wisdom.</P> <P>How much of your damage is auto-attack will effect how much you gain from it, as well as what situations you fight in.</P> <P>For most single groups, where auto attack damage is about 25-40% of our DPS, point for point it still gives more DPS boost then the other lines. Both STR (crit ability) and AGI (pirate stab proc) DPS boost abilities seem to give roughly 4-5% overall damage increase each. Wisdom's DPS boost gives a roughly 7-10% damage increase in comparison, dependent again on how much of your damage is auto-attack.</P> <P>You won't get as much DPS boost from going STR/AGI as you will from going STR/WIS or AGI/WIS. Of course you are also making other sacrifices by going into the WIS line, which ends up making sense. A bigger DPS boost, for bigger tradeoffs then the other lines.</P> <P>Personally I will definitely be staying 4,8,8,8,8 Wis and going 4,4,5 or so into either STR or AGI, dependent on what weapons I end up using. This just happens to make the best sense for a PvP Swashbuckler that groups with 2-4 people for heroics. Whether it is the best combination for you depends on your playstyle, and in what conditions you fight in most of the time. </P><p>Message Edited by Rokjin on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:49 PM</span>

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

Just wanted to take a sec to thank you guys for the work you're doing. I have been waiting on attuning a 1H weapon until I saw what WIS was going to be like, and you guys are certainly saving me a large portion of the experimentation. <div></div>

[Lyzarius]

I also wanted to give my thanks for the hard data work that many of you have done.  It really helps those of us less parse adept in determining the path we want to take.  So kudos to those members of our community that take the lead in such things!

[Sete Soujiro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR>lets see what did I post originally -<BR><BR>Auto attack was 391 DPS (450 str)<BR>Pre-Nerf Proc DPS with - Interrupt ad3, Caustic Poison, Frostwrath, Furious Onslaught - 225 DPS<BR>Total DPS 616<BR><BR>Dual Wield auto was 271 DPS (470 str)<BR>Dual wield Proc DPS (unchanged) - with same procs was 166<BR>Total DPS 437<BR><BR>Projected DPS with new system was 545<BR><BR>Here's some data<BR><BR>Trial 1, Katsuki vs Perdition (4:46)<BR><BR>Melee - 371 DPS<BR>Procs - 155 DPS<BR>Total - 526 DPS<BR><BR>Trial 2, Katsuki vs Perdition (4:30)<BR><BR>Melee - 425 DPS<BR>Procs - 134 DPS<BR>Total -  559 DPS<BR><BR>Trial 3, Katsuki vs Perdition (4:40)<BR><BR>Melee - 401 DPS<BR>Procs - 157 DPS<BR>Total - 558 DPS<BR><BR>Dual wield retest<BR><BR>Melee - 301 DPS<BR>Procs - 141 DPS<BR>Total - 442 DPS<BR><BR>Dual wield weapons used - Sword of Four Winds (52) Grizzlefazzle (53) - 468 STR<BR>1h used - Frostwrath (77) - 439 STR<BR>Poison used - Caustic Poison (450 dmg with my int)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I see two flaws with your test.</P> <P>1.  Your comparing 1 t7 fabled weapon against 2 legendary t7 weapons</P> <P>2.  If your setup is wis 4448 and str 44488 then its gonna be favorable to the 1 hdr.</P> <P>If you did the same test with just wis 4448 against the same mob and the say use just str 4448 and 2 t7 fabled im sure the numbers would be a lot closer.  But that would involve a couple of repects which would be the suck just to test out which would be better.</P>

[intensive]

<P>I have tested this extensively before the change and after, I am not going to parse results for the reasons of not wanting any more changes to come on the nerf side.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am still very pleased with the WIS line and will not be changing, I now get to spend less on poisons as well. I would be more than happy to share parses of results with anyone that would like, but I am not posting them here. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Swoop of Befallen</P>

[Keldo]

My parses were down last night on raids, but nothing game breaking and certainly not T3 or lower.  The people that normally beat me before wis line, do again, but I still beat most everyone else. and yeah, my test isn't perfect, it isn't even a big sample, but if you want to waste 2 fabled DW to test it out, you are gonna have to find someone else.  Me, I'll just add a percentage increase and see that Wis still wins out. and how is STR favorable to WIS more than dual wield?<div></div>

[Sete Soujiro]

I have no doubt that the wis line will give an edge on dps, what I was saying was if your spec'd to have max DA and max crit hits, you have 2 lines increasing your dps for the 1hdr set up.  When you switch to the dw setup only the max crits is increasing your dps, so your results will be more favorable towards the 1hdr.

[AegisCrown]

<DIV>ill test the dw soon i think, we are running out of people to give absolution too, got maybe 1-2 bards, 1 ranger and 1 brigand left who need/want so ill possibly get one soon enough depending on raid build.  after that ill match it with wurmy and respec to give dw a try</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Keldo]

Well, what other AA line adds DPS?  Considering I attacking these mobs from the front, Avast Ye wouldn't even work.  Crits add the same (small) dps bonus to both dual wield and double attack, so I hardly see how it invalidates anything in regards to that test.  It is a simple test of proc rates, and straight up melee dps - nothing else is even factored in. <div></div>

[Sete Soujiro]

Your not looking at this subjectively.  Yes Avest Ya adds dps from the back, so you cant test it solo.  Since your testing solo, what needs to be compared is one AP line against another AP line.

[dagoo7]

<P>Deleted, no time to finish</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>

[overfloat]

<P>Thanks for the numbers Keldoth, interesting to see some figures. We could pick holes in any test setup but it's still a very good indication.</P> <P>Seems to be a fair balance to me. ~450 regular DW up to ~550 1H DA. Still looks like a decent choice for raiders, but I think it makes the other lines look more attractive (makes WIS less the "obvious" choice) to those who aren't focusing on raiding.</P> <P>Personally it just confirms that I'll stick with the other lines: I'll never be wearing/wielding the best of the best equipment anyway, so it seems daft me trying to improve my mediocre DPS when other classes can do it so much better. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So I'll focus on expanding my debuffs and utility instead, being as their benefits aren't so dependent on my crappy gear!</P>

[Lyzarius]

Ok more than happy to give my experiencal data to this thread, with the caveat that my ability to interpret numbers is far less than those of some of the other luminaries who grace our site.  But I am in a guild that raids almost exclusively.  I use the ACT parser with no real understanding of how it spits out the numbers it does. However here is what I have seen.  Prior to the change in procs I was T1 DPS in our guild (one that has killed all but one encounter in KoS) and usually outdamaging everyone else from any class.  This was wielding the Velium Shortspear or the Qeynos Rapier.  AFfer the change to proccing I am still T1 DPS -- but just not as consistantly #1, will now occasionaly lose on group fights to a good wizard, or to an assasin once in awhile.  However the real test is that one of my best friends in the game is another swash who retained DW. He wields the Qeynos Cutlass and Vyemm's Fang, prior to the change I was out-DPSing him by about 200-300, now its more 100-150.  So I think that the WIS line is exactly where it should be -- you gain a bit of DPS and lose all the glory that an equipped secondary slot provides.  On big single named fights we are always 1 and 2.  This leads me to believe that no matter what path you choose as a Swash, be it DW or 1H, you will be a great addition to raid/group

[Aieckelle]

<P>I don't have the number on me but when i heard about the nerf on the wis line i was mad and did a respect on my AA to go back on DW.  That is how i respected my AA :  STR 5 8 4 8 8  /   INT 4 6 4 1   /    AGI 1 . So in my guild there is another swashy that got the good 1H the Frostwrath and that was still using the wis line... so i was able to compare that AA line with the WIS line ... The weapon I was using was : 1- Adantine Dragonfang (Fabled with 57.9 dmg rating)  2- Sword of the foul wind (legendary with 52.3 dmg rating).</P> <P>So what i was able to see was when my inspiration and my Perfect Finesse (that are each master 1) was on i was able to do as much dps as the other swashy was doing with the wis line, and we were in the same group so with the same buff. There was some time when his buff was down i was able to over dps him but that was kinda rare... Most of the time i was doing 300 - 500 lower dps than he was doing...</P> <P>I re-respect my AA 2 days ago... and since i did a lot of tests with those AA line in the past ... it costed me 13 plats to respect lol but I think that in term of dps it worth it. Now my new setting are : STR 5 4 4 8 8   /   WIS 4 4 4 8 . At the moment i don't have a fabled 1 handed and i am using mostly the Umbranis (Legendary with 68.8 dmg rating) and i can over dps him. Depend of the group setting, I didn't had the chance to be in the same group yet, but i know that now I can do more dps than with the DW. I came back to over 1k dps that i wasn't able to do with the DW all the time...</P> <P>I know that taking moslty str and not wis may lower my dps, but i choose to took the Traumatic Swipe for the raid win. I though that it would be a must for the guild to have at least one swashy to loose a bit of dps and have a good imparement. At the moment I have been able to see the goodness of that impairement, like when the mob have an aoe that is at each X amount of time, then if you use it, the amount of time is higher than it is suppose to be. So more time to be on the mob hitting him and less time for the aoe. In my mind that a really good thing since i am mostly raiding.</P> <P>Anyway... that was my observation... I hope it can help...</P>