LU23 Nerf to Swashie WIS AA Line

[Snarks]

Taken from: http://patch.everquest2.com:7010/patch/eq2/motd/en/updates_test.html *** Achievements *** - Rogue: A successful double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc. Will you be switching to a diff AA line? Honestly I have -no- idea how much double attack poison procs affect dps. Im going to do some extra parsing to try and figure out. oh well <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Keldo]

<div></div><div></div>Will have to wait and parse, but overall it will still come out ahead on dual wield. edit:  Did some tests vs Perdition Learned the following: 1h + DA vs DW auto attack: 1h + DA wins by 20-25% 1h + DA vs DW proc rate:  45-50% more procs Lunge Reversal goes off a lot more than once every 20 vs grey mobs so taking it out of account, here are my numbers - 1h - Frostwrath DW: Grizzle + Sword of Four Winds Poison: Caustic Poison (422) DPS now: 616 (391 auto attack, 225 proc) DPS dw: 437 (271 auto attack, 166 proc) DPS projected after nerf: 545 (391 auto, 166 proc) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 AM</span>

[Verit]

It's just a bad joke.......With this change, bruiser will be better DPS and SKs will be very near...It's just amazing how much nerf we had and nothing for the tanks DPS.To do better DPS than tanks we need to sacrifice an item (second hand empty) and bought a lot of poison.Bruiser and SKs are just to do.... Nothing! A lot of good gear and one the RIDICULOUS amount of 2HD+dmg procs in the game.A large amount of stuff, some stupid drop rate on 2HD with a lot of different awesome procs (and low delay)....<div></div>I love the game, but this F....... tank love from the devs make me sick. Hopefully i have a perma group for quest to appreciate to play with a none tank in this game.Thx SOE, the balance is again ridiculous.

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>I expected this change to come sooner rather then later..</DIV> <DIV>What Id like to know tho, why is it only rogue's double attack that is getting changed? We arent the only ones having this ability and even tho the combination of double attack+hurricane+haste+inspired makes us huge on AE damage its no excuse to only 'fix' us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am somewhat glad that i wont go through some 20-30 poisons/raid night, but as we give up all stats on secondary hand those possible 72% better make up for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dagoo7]

What is the point of this ...  Even with wisdom line working as it was, we were still stuck solidly in Tier 2 dps, being clearly outdamaged by those classes that are (and some that aren't) supposed to outdamage us.  In other words, we are being nerfed for no reason.  If for some reason double attack procs were causing huge imbalance in other classes/gamewide and they decided to nerf it across the board it would be frustrating but understandable.  Making it rogue-specific, however, indicates this is not the case and is therefore just ridiculous.

[the flu]

<div></div>The point is poisons were doing to much damage as it was currenlty implimented. If you didn't see this coming you haven't been paying attention- why were poisons nerfed- they were going off too often. What was happening with double attack? Poisons were going off 2x per autoattack. 1+1=2.Notes only mention rouge aa for this, but lu23 is still young.<div></div><p>Message Edited by the fluke on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 AM</span>

[dagoo7]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> the fluke wrote:<BR> The point is poisons were doing to much damage as it was currenlty implimented. If you didn't see this coming you haven't been paying attention- why were poisons nerfed- they were going off too often. What was happening with double attack? Poisons were going off 2x per autoattack. 1+1=2.<BR><BR>Notes only mention rouge aa for this, but lu23 is still young.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by the fluke on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well the point is that if poisons are the issue, then take away poison procs.  But don't take away all our other procs off double attacks.  Every other class with double attacks as of now will get to keep proccing off the double attack.  That means that we are being nerfed noticeably relative to other classes.  Regardless of what devs do in the future, right now we are the only ones getting nerfed.  And if their response is simply to nerf double attacks across the board because they can't figure out how to isolate poisons, is that really fair to either other classes or us ...</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Edit:  Keldoth's numbers seem, as always, to be right on.  However, his comparison does not take into account (nor can it really) the loss of other procs (item, group buff, etc.) off the double attack which depending could be as significant if not more so than the poison loss.   And once again, I feel strongly the devs should not nerf double attack across the board just to fix poison dmg, just make it so we get the same benefits from double attack as everyone else.  Nerfing other classes doesn't make me happy or my life any easier.  Just seems that in order to make a minor surgical adjustment they just decided to cut off the whole limb instead.  Simply forcing everyone to undergo a similar amputation would make this malpractice even worse. </SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:18 AM</span>

[Awlis]

<DIV>Very upset by this... I wonder if anyone in dev team has actually looked at the numbers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>to me it was an increase in dps but not huge.. yes more procs and why not you were sacrificing your offhand.. why cant these things be sorted before they go live? I really dislike spending dpk and time on getting a goos one hander to have the line nerfed... in fact I hate nerfing in anycase.. but especially when its nerfing such a small increase..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mind you I wonder too wethers its due to people saying its gonna be nerfed even before the thought was placed in their heads</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a sad day for me. I loved the trade off of lower stats for higher dps and the look you got</DIV>

[the flu]

<div><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr></blockquote></div> <div> </div> <div>Well the point is that if poisons are the issue, then take away poison procs.  But don't take away all our other procs off double attacks.  Every other class with double attacks as of now will get to keep proccing off the double attack.  That means that we are being nerfed noticeably relative to other classes.  Regardless of what devs do in the future, right now we are the only ones getting nerfed.  And if their response is simply to nerf double attacks across the board because they can't figure out how to isolate poisons, is that really fair to either other classes or us ...</div><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">04-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:04 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Poisons are the metric players can use to measure procs. If poisons are going off more than intended, then all procs are. Essentially, swashies were getting a 2x multiplier to their proc rates. Others are as well. IF you think it's that big an issue, feedback the others or make a big stink about it on the testing forums. The point is though, that with all of the recent proc changes, everyone should have known that procs were only intended to have one chance to go off per autoattack round or ca, and only one chance at the delved rate. Thats what all of the proc nerfs were about.When I read through the wisdom line, I figured that the double attacks were meant not as bonus dps, but rather as a way to normalise damage so that dw would not have an advantage over going off hand free. Any thing beyond that was a bonus.</div>

[dagoo7]

Once again, the fact that, even if just initially, they felt the nerf only had to be applied to rogues, then the developers seem to feel that the double proc rate is not an imbalance gamewide (and we all know there are other classes who currently benefit quite a bit, if not more, from this mechanic). It appears to me that when they introduced the double attack mechanic, they were well aware of the proc aspect (they would have to be idiots not to) and took this into consideration and balanced the various double attack rates accordingly.  They just seem not to have anticipated the relatively more significant impact of poisons given their higher proc rate.  As such, fix poison aspect but normal procs should not be taken away from us or from other classes.  Simply nerfing double attack across the board and claiming this was the issue all along ... I for one won't buy it.

[Zygwen]

I would prefer that they nerf double attack across the board. I'd blame the procs off double attack to lazy programming. They probably just copy pasted the same code that was used for a normal attack. Even with this nerf though I'd probably stick with Wis Line. <div></div>

[Dakkon_10]

<DIV>I think wisdom AA line will still be great for dps, and I plan to stick with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm wondering now tho if stamina line would be the better choice for dps...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But screw dps i would take wisdom line for the roleplaying aspect of it anyways :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[the flu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dakkon_1007 wrote:<div>I think wisdom AA line will still be great for dps, and I plan to stick with it.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm wondering now tho if stamina line would be the better choice for dps...</div> <div> </div> <div>But screw dps i would take wisdom line for the roleplaying aspect of it anyways :smileyvery-happy:</div><hr></blockquote>It won't compare dps wise- the sta line dps bonus counts against the 100% dps bonus cap. The wisdom line is just an extra attack.</div>

[Zygwen]

Supposedly, Double attack and Criticals are also capped at 100% but there are so few effects that modify them that it is difficult for us to reach cap. Unlike %DPS and %Haste which can be easily capped in the right groups. Solo my %DPS and %Haste are 0% and 5%. In raids I am often at 100% 100% especialy with an inquisitor in group. <div></div>

[Aeralik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zygwen wrote:<BR>I would prefer that they nerf double attack across the board. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It is an across the board change so not sure why it was just rogues mentioned in the notes. Although you guys will probably see the biggest change losing the double poison proc.<p>Message Edited by Aeralik on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

[AratornCalahn]

<blockquote><hr>Aeralik wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zygwen wrote:I would prefer that they nerf double attack across the board. <hr> </blockquote>It is an across the board change so not sure why it was just rogues mentioned in the notes. Although you guys will probably see the biggest change losing the double poison proc.<p>Message Edited by Aeralik on <span class="date_text">04-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>awww inst that like the advantage of the AA? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[SageGaspar]

Honestly, I've seen this coming for over a month now, hehe. I'm not too disappointed.Also, I think the issue was less the poison proc and more the Hurricane proc. Hurricane + Inspiration + group of mobs = shredder.Hopefully this gets rid of some of the FotM swashies too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dakkon_10]

I'd like to know if the double attacks will still be able to proc the built in weapon procs. When using two duel wields with built in procs you are able to proc off the offhand weapon, so technically you should be able to off a double attack. Right?

[dagoo7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aeralik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zygwen wrote:<BR>I would prefer that they nerf double attack across the board. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It is an across the board change so not sure why it was just rogues mentioned in the notes. Although you guys will probably see the biggest change losing the double poison proc. <P>Message Edited by Aeralik on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:11 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you sure this is the case, as I can see in certain classes where this change is going to be quite controversial and have a much more significant impact on one subclass vs the other (cough ... Brawlers).  One of the things that was p...ing me off was the fact that it looked somewhat like they had narrowed this to rogues to cowardly avoid the inevitable conflagration that will erupt in certain more popular classes (cough ... Brawlers) if the change was made across the board. 

[Verit]

Its not the nerf who is ridiculous.Its again a nerf against scouts DPS.And soon brawlers and SKs will soon overdamaging us.They are tanks or dps? Why no nerf on theses classes?<div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Verityn wrote:Its not the nerf who is ridiculous.Its again a nerf against scouts DPS.And soon brawlers and SKs will soon overdamaging us.They are tanks or dps? Why no nerf on theses classes?<div></div><hr></blockquote>They'll get their day, the wheel of nerf goes round <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Actually, I think this change is going to hurt brawlers too, if I remember their AA lines correctly.Look at it this way, no matter what happens to the class, traumatic swipe (either swash or brigand) plus all your swash only debuffs will always be useful, plus you'll always do respectable damage. You'll always have the flexibility of off-tanking in groups.I'm just glad this happened sooner rather than later, to be honest, before everyone I know finished levelling their rogues to 70 and flooded my groups, hehe.</div>

[Dakkon_10]

<DIV>A good way to make me not care about the double attacks not proccing... is to allow scouts to use two handed weapons...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is something that has been bugging me for a long time, because their are not enough good one hand weapons out there. Also, most quests don't reward a good one hander, take grizzfazzles for instance. I chose the bow because none of the other choices fit my class.... there was a DW, a two hander, a shield, a mage staff, and a one hand crushing... I just don't get why we can't choose and use the two handers. TANKS DON'T EVEN USE THEM (unless they are trying to get higher dps WHICH IS OUR JOB!!) /sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyways, using a two hander with double attacks would be nice since you stole our nice proc advantage and made us only slightly better dps than brawlers again</DIV>

[dagoo7]

Probably a better answer, particularly if the double attack nerf is not even across the board, is to slighlty raise the double attack rate in the wisdom line.  However, I ain't holding my breath.

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Verityn wrote:<BR>Its not the nerf who is ridiculous.<BR><BR>Its again a nerf against scouts DPS.<BR>And soon brawlers and SKs will soon overdamaging us.<BR><BR>They are tanks or dps? Why no nerf on theses classes? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>These are exactly the kind of baseless, didn't-read-the-Dev-post-right-above whines that we've done very well to keep off the swashbuckler forums so far. Let's not start with them now.</P> <P> </P> <P>This change was <STRONG>obviously</STRONG> going to happen sooner or later. The entire reason behind the proc changes over the last 6 months was to help keep DPS levels more consistent across all weapons and wield types, making it easier for the Devs to moderate the DPS tiers, especially for those classes that get a large portion of their damage comes from procs. Allowing double attacks (already using a proc % rate themselves) to cause additional procs just threw that entire moderation effort out of the window.</P> <P>I hate to pull an "I told you so" but I said this was coming from the very first moment someone on this forums said their new double attacks were allowing additional poison procs, and I specifically mentioned that it would be highly inadvisable to pursue the WIS branch on the basis of extra proc damage. This is not news.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3/3/06 <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>If so, expect this to be fixed/nerfed at some point. Tthere is <U><STRONG>no</STRONG></U> way this will stay after all the other steps SOE has recently taken to make procs consistent across all wield types, weapon types and classes. (I'm just throwing this out there now, nice and early, so that people have no excuses for whining when it gets nerfed!) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I do agree about the patch message needing to be a little more accurate, though. If the description isn't updated to include all affected classes, there will be uproar in other forums too once they figure it out (and they will). And it'll end up causing a lot of animosity towards rogues because <EM>"they were the ones who were meant to get nerfed, they need it because their DPS is too high, woe is us for getting unintentionally caught in the crossfire"</EM>.</P>

[Mion da Peon]

<P>It's really not the poison damage that is the real issue.  The losses on hurricane and inspired daring will be much larger.  Effectively killing both our AE and burst damage... this reminds me of lu16, ALL OVER AGAIN.  </P> <P>If SoE is so worried about people "getting the right impression" about game mechanics maybe they should just nerf our skills honestly and stop with all the dumbing down of the game.  </P> <P>More confusion is created by changing the rules every 6 live updates than having complex ones to begin with!  This nerf better go through on ALL classes or it'll be total belgium.</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> You said that your brig is outdps your swash all the time... well your swashy must suck because in a full 70 raid I'm always number 1 or number2 (ranger or me(70 swash)) in the dps list. over wizard, conj, assassin, brawler, necro, we don't have a warlcok so not sure about that. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Posts like that by Swashbucklers in the Ranger forum and this forum full of Swashbucklers crowing over their dps is why this happened.</P> <P>Be thankful you're not a Brigand.</P>

[Dakkon_10]

<P>/agree</P> <P>Bragging leads to envy, envy leads to whining, whining leads to nerfage, nerfage leads to suffering and more whining...</P> <P>Stop the vicious cycle and just stop bragging please... it isn't hard.</P> <P>oh and btw, my dad could beat up your dads</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dakkon_1007 wrote: <P>oh and btw, my dad could beat up your dads</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your Dad needs nerfed then.<BR>

[Debunkt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR> Will have to wait and parse, but overall it will still come out ahead on dual wield.<BR><BR>edit:  Did some tests vs Perdition<BR><BR>Learned the following:<BR><BR>1h + DA vs DW auto attack: 1h + DA wins by 20-25%... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What is Perdition?</P> <P>I've been using the WIS line for a couple weeks, and yeah, it was proc'ing like crazy. I'm not suprised it is getting corrected. I kinda chuckle at whoever tested this during dev/beta - I don't even parse and could tell a rogue with maxed out double attack was proc'ing way too often. </P> <P>I'm just glad it is the double attack mechanic and not just rogues getting "fixed."</P> <P>IF/When triple attack shows up, don't forget to look at the proc'ing results before go-live :smileymad: Yay, repeat mistakes.</P><p>Message Edited by Gokineq2 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Verityn wrote:<BR>Its not the nerf who is ridiculous.<BR><BR>Its again a nerf against scouts DPS.<BR>And soon brawlers and SKs will soon overdamaging us.<BR><BR>They are tanks or dps? Why no nerf on theses classes?<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because even it is not mentioned in patch notes, changes in Double Attack is for all classes and I think it is not a nerf. Therefore effecting brawlers and SK's too if they picked this line.</P> <P>So can we please ask fixes for yourself rather than framing others just like a little child?</P> <P> </P>

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dakkon_1007 wrote:<BR> <P>/agree</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Bragging leads to envy, envy leads to whining, whining leads to nerfage, nerfage leads to suffering and more whining...</FONT></P> <P>Stop the vicious cycle and just stop bragging please... it isn't hard.</P> <P>oh and btw, my dad could beat up your dads</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>May I use this as signature? I loved it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Verityn wrote:<BR>Its not the nerf who is ridiculous.<BR><BR>Its again a nerf against scouts DPS.<BR>And soon brawlers and SKs will soon overdamaging us.<BR><BR>They are tanks or dps? Why no nerf on theses classes?<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because even it is not mentioned in patch notes, changes in Double Attack is for all classes and I think it is not a nerf. Therefore effecting brawlers and SK's too if they picked this line.</P> <P>So can we please ask fixes for yourself rather than framing others just like a little child?</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>He is correct brawlers who took the str aa line could get 96% double atk. solo and group its not a huge amoutn of dps lost because we didnt have alto of applied procs. Raid however was a massive boost in dps for any class who took advantage of this. SK i dont know how hgih thier DA goes they get most of thier dps from haste/crits. <BR>

[Zygwen]

<div></div>The OP was saying that the old patch notes for test said that the DA(Double Attack) fix only affected Rogues. A dev has since stated that what they really meant was that the DA fix should affect all classes. I have no problem with this change so long as it affects all classes equally. Rogues can use a handful of 2 handed weapons. iirc one is a spoon. The other is The Wyrmslayer. Perdition is a named lvl 55 x2 cat in Maj Dul. Guardian/Beserker can get 75% DA also Bards can get 56% DA? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Zygwen on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[dagoo7]

So looks like it was confirmed for all classes.  Time to sit back and watch the fireworks on the Bruiser board ...  Some people are likely to get worked up enough to start clamoring for another round of nerfs.    Ah, the Great Circle of Nerf ...

[Geero]

<DIV>I expected this to happen so I'm not all the suprised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Long as we are at, where we are suppose to, it shouldn't matter where everyone else is.</DIV> <DIV>If we are suppose to be tier 2 dps and if all other classes get dps buff to go up a tier, we will eventrually go up a tier. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just remember, world isn't out to get you, world is out to get everyone.</DIV>

[Hurdoc]

<P>1) People who didn't see this coming need to lay off the crack.</P> <P>2) The "nerf" is for Brawlers as well, particularly Monks, who were greatly (and probably excessively) advantaged by the double attack</P> <P>3) The word "nerf" is deliberately in quotes because after removing multi-procs from multi-attacks like Rapid Swings (Bruiser skill), the double attack/double proc was clearly a misintentioned effect</P> <P>4) That being said, I do agree the AA lines for both rogues and brawlers could use some more work, they tend to favor certain subclasses (usually Qeynos)</P>

[Geero]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dagoo7 wrote:<BR> So looks like it was confirmed for all classes.  Time to sit back and watch the fireworks on the Bruiser board ...  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hehe, I know exactly what you are talking about.  I'm checking brawler forum to what they say about this, since they love to cry.  I just love brawler's forum for its entertainment value. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Keldo]

I actually included other procs, just didn't list them.  Other procs in that number are: Frostwrath cold proc, Interrupt offensive stance proc, Furious Assault from Planar orb of the Wanderer. I don't think this change will effect which AA lines you go for if you want DPS, even STR does not provide this bonus.  However the DPS difference will no longer be so large that you would be a fool not to use it, which is nice for variety's sake. <div></div>

[Sadaen]

<DIV>I am having a problem now deciding if I want to go back to two weapons myself, there seems to be alot more DW weapons then there is 1 Handers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like the look of the DW better, but like Katsuki said, before it wasnt even an option just because you are gimping yourself if you didnt go with Wisdom.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So umm does this mean all classes with Double Attack are getting a free Respec?</DIV>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <P>Posts like that by Swashbucklers in the Ranger forum and this forum full of Swashbucklers crowing over their dps is why this happened.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not really. The fact that it ever went live in this form is why this happened.</P> <P>This has nothing to do with DPS parses or claims of uberness and everything to do with the mechanics: putting too much potential DPS in the hands of proc chances makes it incredibly difficult for Devs to balance DPS tiers, because every time another proc effect is added the DPS becomes increasingly difficult to control. Double attacks allowing procs went against the aim of every other proc mechanic change since LU#13, which is how some of us were able to predict this fix before anyone even posted their first WIS branch DPS parse or bragged about their DPS in the forums.</P> <P>Bragging may be the reason it got attention <EM>now</EM> rather than 6 months down the line, but it's not the reason behind the change. </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit: paragraphs ftw</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

[Dragonsviperz]

As an assassin I say this is complete da*n BS, 1) I'm angry because you are nerfing another class which wasn't overpowered that much in the first place. 2) Now since many swashbucklers/brigs have a 1H they will start to not use them and go for Dual Weilds which are a very insane rarity in most places. There are at most 10 fabled DW's in this game. If you are going to nerf a class, atleast think of what it will do item wise. This is one of the dumbest nerfs that I can remember. Please think before you go live with this. Another reason why I think alot of rogues do go this line is because there is more of an availibilty of weapons, atm 1H's are far greater in number then the DW's, so you are adding another class that will have to chose from the DW's line of weapons.

[Geero]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> As an assassin I say this is complete da*n BS, 1) I'm angry because you are nerfing another class which wasn't overpowered that much in the first place. 2) Now since many swashbucklers/brigs have a 1H they will start to not use them and go for Dual Weilds which are a very insane rarity in most places. There are at most 10 fabled DW's in this game. If you are going to nerf a class, atleast think of what it will do item wise. This is one of the dumbest nerfs that I can remember. Please think before you go live with this. Another reason why I think alot of rogues do go this line is because there is more of an availibilty of weapons, atm 1H's are far greater in number then the DW's, so you are adding another class that will have to chose from the DW's line of weapons.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well I think majority of your anger is with the loot issue then other classes actually gettting nerfed. I only say that because majority of your post is about dw weapons. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I am sad this nerf is coming in but like I said before, I saw this nerf coming from miles away.</P> <P>As for future of wis line, we can say it's going to be ok or it's going to suck right now but we won't know for sure until we test it...  Until then I'll be enjoying all the orange numbers above mobs head. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[TwistedFaith]

From a non swashy point of view I could see it coming. The first time I saw the effect of this AA happening was when I grouped with a lvl 70 Swashy in PoA. We were chatting away about DPS and AA's etc and he asked me to run a parser.The results were impressive to say the least, going all out I could match him if my skills were up. But when my skills were down and we got into chain pulling stuff his DPS was still bizzarely high with what seemed to be just a constant stream of DMG.He later explained what was happening and how people in his guild refer to him as the proctologist <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tasaz]

I sure hope we are given a free respec.  I just spent money last week respecing to the wisdom line and spend a good amount of DKP to get a fabled one hander just to find out this is being nerfed now.This is really a blow to swashies.  Ever since the great ranger nerf (no offhand procs) it hurt us severely, probably much more than it did rangers.  It's not just a damage thing.  Skills like Avoid Censure, Daring, Hurricane, our offensive proc, etc are all effected by this, not just the poison procs.I'm trying to understand what benefit the wisdom AA line even is anymore over duel wield.  With it entirely maxed we only have an 82% chance to proc the double attack.  Once this is normalized, say with a 1.6 sec delay weapon, the actual chance to proc the double attack is arond 45%.  So...what real benefit do we get now for giving up our entire secondary slot, damage and stats?This change negates the entire advantage of the wisdom line.  Please, at the very least, give us a free respec so we can choose something that actually has some use again.<div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tasazar wrote:I sure hope we are given a free respec.  I just spent money last week respecing to the wisdom line and spend a good amount of DKP to get a fabled one hander just to find out this is being nerfed now.This is really a blow to swashies.  Ever since the great ranger nerf (no offhand procs) it hurt us severely, probably much more than it did rangers.  It's not just a damage thing.  Skills like Avoid Censure, Daring, Hurricane, our offensive proc, etc are all effected by this, not just the poison procs.I'm trying to understand what benefit the wisdom AA line even is anymore over duel wield.  With it entirely maxed we only have an 82% chance to proc the double attack.  Once this is normalized, say with a 1.6 sec delay weapon, the actual chance to proc the double attack is arond 45%.  So...what real benefit do we get now for giving up our entire secondary slot, damage and stats?This change negates the entire advantage of the wisdom line.  Please, at the very least, give us a free respec so we can choose something that actually has some use again.<div></div><hr></blockquote>We sure it's normalized?</div>

[Keldo]

it is not normalized as far as I am aware, and numbers have already been posted in the thread which show that it will still do more dps. <div></div>

[SageGaspar]

Yeah, I think WIS is still a big winner.Plus, as a one-handed DPS I pretty much get my choice of one-handers geared towards DPS on raids. Try winning two fabled dual-wields of a similar calibur. Much tougher and you'll use much more DKP/credit/whatever.<div></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

I'd say about 70% Anger from loot and 30% from the fact that it wasn't that overpowering and it was a good boost in dps for the rogue class. Just tired of seeing classes get boosted then their boost get taken away. Getting nervous that they may touch my class soon, just want the nerfing to stop, because atm there are classes that have been broken or need a boost since LU13.

[Twiztd]

is it me or have we just been part of a HUGE beta test for the past year.....? <div></div>

[Tasaz]

I'm just getting sick of the nerfs to swashies as a result of balancing other classes.  Before LU13 (DoF's release), swashies were vastly underpowered.  With LU13 we finally got boosted to where we were finally a decent dps class, but since have suffered one nerf after another.Let's look at what we've seen since LU13:1. Ranged abilties nerfed to only allow throwing weapons.  All satchels and throwing weapons do less damage and have less range.  Additionally, when have you seen any fabled satchels?2. Hurricane nerfed to half effectiveness (pre-emptively before any complaints because they were going to up all dual wield damage)3. Hail of Steel nerfed (both in hate gain and requiring a minimum range)4. Off-hand weapon proc nerf.  Supposedly to fix the insane poison damage done by rangers, but this single change nerfed Avoid Censure, Daring, offensive stance (damage proc and interrupt), Bravado line, and not to mention poison.  One single change cut ALL those abilities in half.5. Main hand weapon proc nerf.  Poisons and ALL above listed skills no longer can proc off of CAs with multiple strikes such as Uncanny Reflexes even though the description for Daring specifically stated it will proc of EACH hit including CAs with multiple strikes.6. Wis AA line (fencing line) now will be reduced significantly in effectiveness with this change.Please, enough is enough.  I don't think I ever heard anyone ever say before that swashies were overpowered.Why the constant steam of nerfs for a class that has always struggled to feel useful and valid as a dps class?I so much enjoyed playing a swashie with LU13 and since it's just been nerf after nerf.  It's getting old already.<div></div>

[AfflictedOne]

<blockquote><hr>Tasazar wrote:I'm just getting sick of the nerfs to swashies as a result of balancing other classes.  Before LU13 (DoF's release), swashies were vastly underpowered.  With LU13 we finally got boosted to where we were finally a decent dps class, but since have suffered one nerf after another.Let's look at what we've seen since LU13:1. Ranged abilties nerfed to only allow throwing weapons.  All satchels and throwing weapons do less damage and have less range.  Additionally, when have you seen any fabled satchels?2. Hurricane nerfed to half effectiveness (pre-emptively before any complaints because they were going to up all dual wield damage)3. Hail of Steel nerfed (both in hate gain and requiring a minimum range)4. Off-hand weapon proc nerf.  Supposedly to fix the insane poison damage done by rangers, but this single change nerfed Avoid Censure, Daring, offensive stance (damage proc and interrupt), Bravado line, and not to mention poison.  One single change cut ALL those abilities in half.5. Main hand weapon proc nerf.  Poisons and ALL above listed skills no longer can proc off of CAs with multiple strikes such as Uncanny Reflexes even though the description for Daring specifically stated it will proc of EACH hit including CAs with multiple strikes.6. Wis AA line (fencing line) now will be reduced significantly in effectiveness with this change.Please, enough is enough.  I don't think I ever heard anyone ever say before that swashies were overpowered.Why the constant steam of nerfs for a class that has always struggled to feel useful and valid as a dps class?I so much enjoyed playing a swashie with LU13 and since it's just been nerf after nerf.  It's getting old already.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Justed wanted to chime in a a couple points here. 3.  How is lowering the hate gain a nerf?  Maybe I'm wrong but having a non tank class having a damage arts that causes hate and having that hate lowered is a buff to the class in 99% of it's uses.  Or maybe you just want to call any changed nerfs? 6. The wis aa.  Hate to tell you but this AA is very overpowering.  Well maybe it's not just this AA but a few other things as well.  But one thing I can tell you tho is that well played swashies/brigs with this AA can way out dps every other class in the game now.  They can surpass all the "Tier 1" classed by far and can even almost always surpass even the "overpowered" summoner classes.  I see this day after day after day.  The reason you don't see many people complain about these is there aren't very many people playing rogue classes when you compare them to brawlers/summoners but that doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.  The thing is this prolly won't make that huge of a difference to swashie dps and they will still prolly be head and shoulder above the T1 dps classes after it as well cause the difference is currently that great.<div></div>

[Gusta]

<DIV>So when does Vanguard come out?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another nerf... yippie... I wanna keep playing this game but with every LU new bugs and new nerfs just leave a sour taste in my mouth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME SOE. (If thats possible for you guys) How about focusing on new content instead of slowly nerfing everyone and [Removed for Content] them off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats all i have to say</DIV>

[Oxie]

What irks me about all this, is that I've passed up several chances for some decent dual wield weapons because I'm using a 1 hander now (WIS first, now working on STR). If it turns out that the WIS/STR combo is just not as good as a dual wield AP line, I'm gonna....well..even more irked! /mutter

[Riversideblues]

anyone notice that most of the classes who have been quitting have been scouts?there's more 2 hand weapons than there are duel weild weapons, and scouts need to use double the duel weildsfor the rogues who went one hander, grats, there's 1 spear and one really rare axe (im talking fabled) of course the wis line will increase our dps!!! what should we do? take the proc off avaste ye or lose crit chances??? and one of the three will always be better because they're not all going to be equal =the most [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing is that we were in a solid t2 spot, and yet conj/necros who are also t2 are a good 800 dps average higher than any rogue i've seen, and yet no nurf, but that's mostly because there's enough stupid summoners who use their tank pets for dps and make the classes appear balancedand to the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who said "good now ill use less poisons" [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s like you are why rangers got nerfed, and now why we are when we didn't even need it<div></div>

[the flu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Riversideblues wrote:of course the wis line will increase our dps!!! what should we do? take the proc off avaste ye or lose crit chances??? and one of the three will always be better because they're not all going to be equal =the most [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing is that we were in a solid t2 spot, and yet conj/necros who are also t2 are a good 800 dps average higher than any rogue i've seen, and yet no nurf, but that's mostly because there's enough stupid summoners who use their tank pets for dps and make the classes appear balancedand to the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who said "good now ill use less poisons" [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s like you are why rangers got nerfed, and now why we are when we didn't even need it<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you need to spend 20 points in wisdom to be doing t2 dps, then something is seriously wrong. Either with you, your character, or the class. It's not the class, as I was doing near top tier damage <b>before</b> I respec'd for wisdom (from stamina, the low dps line).  As for comparing with the other lines- ballanced does not mean equal. The double attack was meant to be compensation for loosing half our autoattack, nothing more.  The bonus chance to crit- there is not cost associated with that line damage wise- you can use either a proper sword or a short sword- so the overall benifit is less, but so is the cost.Sumoners are being looked at (see withdrawn patch notes for TU 19 or 20)- BUT- much like the proc rates hiding the fact that rangers were broken, some of the summoner pets were broken, and those needed to be fixed before they can be toned down. You have to fix the mechanics before you can fix the numbers that come from them.If you think players  (I assume that is what you were trying to say before the censor hit your post) actually have a dirrect influence on ballance concerns, you are sadly mistaken. SOE is parsing data in amounts that would make ACT look like a random number generator- something probalby simmiler to the hourly economy reports that they get. If soemthing is not where they want it to be, they'll see it. Yes players generate the data, and are likely to exploit anything that puts them over the top bringing the issue to the forefront, but it will be caught eventually.</div>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> the fluke wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>If you think players  (I assume that is what you were trying to say before the censor hit your post) actually have a dirrect influence on ballance concerns, you are sadly mistaken. SOE is parsing data in amounts that would make ACT look like a random number generator- something probalby simmiler to the hourly economy reports that they get. If soemthing is not where they want it to be, they'll see it. Yes players generate the data, and are likely to exploit anything that puts them over the top bringing the issue to the forefront, but it will be caught eventually.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you think this, then you're very naive.... the only people who didn't know how much damage pre-nerf was produced from poisons and procs for Rangers was the devs. It came as a complete shock to the devs that 40% of Ranger damage was from poisons and procs and they ended up looking very silly over the matter.</P> <P>At no point since EQ1 onwards has SOE (or VI before them) had a better grasp of the game mechanics than the players. This has been demonstrated month in month out over scores of issues.</P> <P>I log all the activity going on the companies intranet server.... that doesn't mean I have a clue what is happening on that box because I'm not actually analysing the logs in any meaningful fashion.</P>

[Tasaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:<div>The double attack was meant to be compensation for loosing half our autoattack, nothing more.  The bonus chance to crit- there is not cost associated with that line damage wise- you can use either a proper sword or a short sword- so the overall benifit is less, but so is the cost.</div><hr></blockquote>So, what you are saying is...We give up a second weapon with all its stats, damage, and spend half our AA points just so we can be "almost" on par with just using a dual wield weapon?Sorry, but no.  The AA lines are designed to give us an advantage.  We wouldn't spend all those points and give up that second weapon just so we can be about how it would be with a dual wield weapon.  It's SUPPOSED to be better.  That's the reason for spending the AA and sacrificing the weapon.  This nerf makes it almost on par which, in my opinion, is just wrong.</div>

[Keldo]

1h + DA >>>>>>>>> DW nerfed or otherwise With wisdom how it is now, I pretty much am #1 on every parse we do.  If there is more than 1 mob in the encounter, not only do I win, I beat everyone by hundreds of DPS even Conj.  If you didn't see the nerf bat coming, you are blind. It is supposed to be a marginal (10-20%) increase in DPS at best like all other AA that grant double attack, they all have a big drawback because they increase overall DPS much more than other AA lines.  But it did not also say 50% more procs on top of it, and lets not forget how it interacts with hurricane.  I will miss the days of pulling entire rooms in heroic dungeons and watching all 7-8 encounters die in 13 seconds tho! <div></div>

[Luk]

<P>AA lines are designed to give players the ability to personalise their toon, give it something different to all the other toons of the same class, as it was/is nearly every Swashy went with the WIS line because it made a tier 2 DPS class a tier 1 DPS class, this is not meant to happen, you should be able to out DPS a tier 1 under certain conditions, but not by sitting there on auto attack.</P> <P>Swashies are NOT tier 1 DPS, we are a utility class, our debuffs are some of the best around, both in keeping a tank alive and in helping other toons do higher DPS. If anyone is not happy with our role, then why have you stayed with Swashy, if you like to say, wow, I'm so great, look at how high my DPS is, then, sorry, but you rolled the wrong class.</P> <P>I view this change as a good thing, maybe I will see Swashies running around with something other than a one hander and empty off hand.</P>

[Twiztd]

<blockquote><hr>Licit wrote:<div></div> <p>Swashies are NOT tier 1 DPS, we are a utility class, our debuffs are some of the best around, both in keeping a tank alive and in helping other toons do higher DPS. If anyone is not happy with our role, then why have you stayed with Swashy, if you like to say, wow, I'm so great, look at how high my DPS is, then, sorry, but you rolled the wrong class.</p> <hr></blockquote>           ok i kinda disagree... in all the parse we do.. the 2 swashies in our guild have been # 1 and 2 spots....   yes we have awesome debuffs.... but the main thing why we are made.. is for DPS.... thats all... straight up DPS.... with the exception of our hate transfer we dont bring any special buffs to the group... just buffs for ourselves           come on SOE now that conj, and necros, are gonna beat us out for dps.... what nerf them next..... soon we wont be able to take down a raid mob.. because you dumbed down everyones dps..... lol gotta love SOE<div></div>

[Luk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twiztd wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <P>Swashies are NOT tier 1 DPS, we are a utility class, our debuffs are some of the best around, both in keeping a tank alive and in helping other toons do higher DPS. If anyone is not happy with our role, then why have you stayed with Swashy, if you like to say, wow, I'm so great, look at how high my DPS is, then, sorry, but you rolled the wrong class.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>          ok i kinda disagree... in all the parse we do.. the 2 swashies in our guild have been # 1 and 2 spots....   yes we have awesome debuffs.... but the main thing why we are made.. is for DPS.... thats all... straight up DPS.... with the exception of our hate transfer we dont bring any special buffs to the group... just buffs for ourselves<BR>          come on SOE now that conj, and necros, are gonna beat us out for dps.... what nerf them next..... soon we wont be able to take down a raid mob.. because you dumbed down everyones dps..... lol gotta love SOE<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are both the swashies WIS spec'd

[dagoo7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twiztd wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Licit wrote:<BR> <P>Swashies are NOT tier 1 DPS, we are a utility class, our debuffs are some of the best around, both in keeping a tank alive and in helping other toons do higher DPS. If anyone is not happy with our role, then why have you stayed with Swashy, if you like to say, wow, I'm so great, look at how high my DPS is, then, sorry, but you rolled the wrong class.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>          ok i kinda disagree... in all the parse we do.. the 2 swashies in our guild have been # 1 and 2 spots....   yes we have awesome debuffs.... but the main thing why we are made.. is for DPS.... thats all... straight up DPS.... with the exception of our hate transfer we dont bring any special buffs to the group... just buffs for ourselves<BR>          come on SOE now that conj, and necros, are gonna beat us out for dps.... what nerf them next..... soon we wont be able to take down a raid mob.. because you dumbed down everyones dps..... lol gotta love SOE<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are somewhat understating the powere of our debuffs.  These benefits are quite evident even if one just solos (and IMO quite a big component of our soloabilty).  We get a massive attack debuff (lung puncture) and parry debuff (razor point) as well as significant  defense and resistance debuffs.  I realize these are harder to quantify than pure dps but they are a very key component of our viability.  That being said, these debuff aspects that we bring to the table are often overlooked, and a lot of the time other classes only see our direct dps.  However, dps is what groups and raids seem to be primarly looking for, so dps is a big concern for me personally.  And this is why this change probably bothers me more than it would from a purely solo perspective.</P> <P>Edit: Excuse the syntax.  Friends should not let friends post drunk.</P><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 PM</span>

[Twiztd]

<blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Twiztd wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Licit wrote: <div></div> <p>Swashies are NOT tier 1 DPS, we are a utility class, our debuffs are some of the best around, both in keeping a tank alive and in helping other toons do higher DPS. If anyone is not happy with our role, then why have you stayed with Swashy, if you like to say, wow, I'm so great, look at how high my DPS is, then, sorry, but you rolled the wrong class.</p> <hr> </blockquote>          ok i kinda disagree... in all the parse we do.. the 2 swashies in our guild have been # 1 and 2 spots....   yes we have awesome debuffs.... but the main thing why we are made.. is for DPS.... thats all... straight up DPS.... with the exception of our hate transfer we dont bring any special buffs to the group... just buffs for ourselves          come on SOE now that conj, and necros, are gonna beat us out for dps.... what nerf them next..... soon we wont be able to take down a raid mob.. because you dumbed down everyones dps..... lol gotta love SOE <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You are somewhat understating the powere of our debuffs.  These benefits are quite evident even if one just solos (and IMO quite a big component of our soloabilty).  We get a massive attack debuff (lung puncture) and parry debuff (razor point) as well as significant  defense and resistance debuffs.  I realize these are harder to quantify than pure dps but they are a very key component of our viability.</p><hr></blockquote>1) i do not underestimate our debuffs...... 2) ty for letting me know what my spells are.... im not stupid.... i know what what my spells are and what they do.... im just saying... like u said..we are known mostly for DPS... and even though we debuff we are mainly used for DPS... 3) Lukia ... yes we are both wis. AA's<div></div>

[Luk]

you are both WIS spec'd Swashies, therefore this proves the point, Swashies are tier 2 DPS as per the offical post by the devs regarding DPS tiers, this AA line has given the ability to up that to tier 1, therefore it is very overpowered and needs to be modified. Any ability the procs should not inherantly produce more procs, this has been taken from other classes and I can't see why we should keep it. I'm sorry for those that have spend cash/dkp/credit to get really nice one handed weapons and now think that they need to change back t dual wield, but that was your choice and if you did not see this coming, then you pay little attention to the parameters set out by the devs with regard to classes and how they compare to each other.

[Carna]

<P>I agree Rogues were starting to parse out of bounds, and that needed addressing.... my concern is our Tier 2 caster counterparts have been parsing way way out of bounds for quite some time. I'd like to know what made Rogues (and Brawlers to a degree who are affected by this) a priority to fix while Necros and Conjurors just sit there?... OMG Rogues are parsing too high! Stop the train!.... and the Necros motor on.</P> <P>I still think it was out of order to "fix" Rangers so they did less damage than T2 casters. And now it's getting way to much.</P> <P>It's the priorities that annoy me.</P>

[dagoo7]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Twiztd wrote</P> <P>1) i do not underestimate our debuffs......<BR>2) ty for letting me know what my spells are.... im not stupid.... i know what what my spells are and what they do.... im just saying... like u said..we are known mostly for DPS... and even though we debuff we are mainly used for DPS...<BR><BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>Settle down Beavis ... We are all on the same team.  Your post seemed at least superficially to understate our debuffs.  You concern about dps is understandable and I share it. However, I was just trying to qualify your original post which if you go back and read in isolation serves to feed the misconceptions that we both speak of.  In addition, we are not the only ones reading this board and understating our debuffs, intentionally or unintentionally, can feed the misconceptions and make our lives even harder.</DIV><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:16 AM</span>

[the flu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tasazar wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:<div>The double attack was meant to be compensation for loosing half our autoattack, nothing more.  The bonus chance to crit- there is not cost associated with that line damage wise- you can use either a proper sword or a short sword- so the overall benifit is less, but so is the cost.</div><hr></blockquote>So, what you are saying is...We give up a second weapon with all its stats, damage, and spend half our AA points just so we can be "almost" on par with just using a dual wield weapon?Sorry, but no.  The AA lines are designed to give us an advantage.  We wouldn't spend all those points and give up that second weapon just so we can be about how it would be with a dual wield weapon.  It's SUPPOSED to be better.  That's the reason for spending the AA and sacrificing the weapon.  This nerf makes it almost on par which, in my opinion, is just wrong.</div><hr></blockquote>That is exactly what i'm saying. Pre kos , you could grab any 6 scouts, line them up in a row, and without inspecting, not be able to tell one apart from the other other than player race. Same exact armor, same exact weaponry. AA's were put in so that we could differentiate our characters, and to make focusing on one playstyle with a character not have any less viable than the others.You may notice that all of the lines except intelignence have a damage increasing componant in them (usuallly the 4th skill in the line). The amount of damage increase depends on what you gave up to take that line. Prehaps you will remember the speicialized training options that classes had before LU13. For many classes, these were set up in a way so that if you did not pick a particular one of the 4 options at each level, you were seriously harming your ability to do the job.  In lu13 m2 skills were introduced so that, in most cases, all of the options were viable, depending on your playstyle. there are of course less attractive options, but they are al equally vialble and eventually get replaced.AA's are supposed to be the same way- ll equally viable based on playstyle. Currently, wisdom is like those pre lu13 training choices for dps swashies- if you are dps and don't take it, you are hurting yourself. LU23 will fix that. Plus, it will make it so not all swashies look the same again. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Twiztd]

<blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div> <blockquote> <p> </p><hr>Settle down Beavis ... We are all on the same team.  Your post seemed at least superficially to understate our debuffs.  You concern about dps is understandable and I share it. However, I was just trying to qualify your original post which if you go back and read in isolation serves to feed the misconceptions that we both speak of.  In addition, we are not the only ones reading this board and understating our debuffs, intentionally or unintentionally, can feed the misconceptions and make our lives even harder.</blockquote></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>       i know u didnt mean it intentially... but im sorry it just kinda gets to me when someone would try and tell me about my own class.... thats all<div></div>

[Aieckelle]

<DIV><FONT size=1>I have read all the post or almost... and i can't understand why some of you want that nerfed!!! God! it's going to hurt us so bad...  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>On every parser i have seen... there was always some summoner, brawler, assassin and me... Now ... I won't be there... No more swashy on the parser cause we will be outdps by even all the other class that are even T3 ... You may be think that i am going to far... No i don't think so... i have seen some parse on some pally that have done so good dps... and even troub and dirge that was doing over 800 dps... so with that nerf... wow we are going down... </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>But... we are only rogue... SOE don't care about rogue... they don't think we are even a class... they don't even give us real AA since they have screwed the only good AA we had... so what do we have left ? nothing ... Going back to DW will hurt a lot... having to pay for a respect, having to get good DW in DKP and than what you already have spent... Yeah! SOE have put the rogue in a huge hole and most of us will stay there... And don't forget all the quest reward screwed by the line you had choosen... now you can't get it back... cause there is no way a GM will change it back !!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>My life is as a swashy... I don't want any other classes... and what i see discourage me... everytime we get something good, SOE screwed it... everytime we seem to go well ... SOE nerfed us... Same thing with the rangers... So what is the problem with the scout class ??? Are we not worth in the game ??? Rogue have been nerfed since so much time and it never stop... Will we be able to get a class that really have something to offer ? Yeah we have debuff... but we should have more than that... cause only debuff it's not enough other classes have debuff also, so we need something else... and dps was good... but now what ?? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Dream... it's only what we have left... Dream</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, i wrote that yesterday when i was a bit frustated... sorry...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have slept on that, and though a bit more, and yeah i knew it was coming but I prolly didn't wanted to see it coming cause i was liking to see the big number coming from the parser. I am an old swashy, that for a moment was dreaming to be a top dps, but in fact I had kinda lost my way, thinking for a moment that only dps matters. I know that i am more than that, i bring more than dps in a raid or a group. Also, my dps will always be there, just as it should be, not as it was...  So atm i take it that way, that i had fun doing a bunches of dps for a moment, a little dream of huge dps, then soon i'll wake up and get back to normal... I think it's better than beeing frustrated like i was... and again, i am really sorry to have bring it here... I know that many other are like me but haven't posted... so, i am the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that have done that... i got temper and i suffer...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. for the fact that I don't have a lot of post, it's mostly because before i wasn't sure of my english, nor i am now. I am a french Canadian that have mostly learn english over Everquest. So adding a post with your opinion in there is harder when it's not your current language and you find yourserlf kinda poor in it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kayli, 70 swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV>Unrest server</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aieckelle on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:28 AM</span>

[Keldo]

This entire thread is hilarious thanks to all these whiners who never post except in threads like this. I mean come on, below dirges, paladins?  lol, be serious.  This will not effect your standing at all except classes that should be beating you (T1) will be ahead of you again.  Conj and Nec will get their nerf, don't worry about them. <div></div>

[Riversideblues]

<blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:This entire thread is hilarious thanks to all these whiners who never post except in threads like this. I mean come on, below dirges, paladins?  lol, be serious.  This will not effect your standing at all except classes that should be beating you (T1) will be ahead of you again.  Conj and Nec will get their nerf, don't worry about them. <div></div><hr></blockquote>as for summoners, yeah it's been over a year so i doubt they will anytime sooni don't see what the problem is with poeple who dont normally post, posting about a major nerf to one of our aa's<div></div>

[Keldo]

I only have a problem cuz they all post the same thing, doom and gloom, soe hates rouges (spelled wrong on purpose), then some wild claim about being T3 or T4 DPS now.  They don't bother reading the thread which has stated time and time again that it is still a DPS increase. Summoners are getting the bat in this same LU with spell procs being based off casting time, and of course this effects classes they are already low dps (enchanters, bards) so it has had huge negative feedback.  That is why changes like this take forever. <div></div>

[Keyh]

<DIV>I personally don't use damage poisons and get around 600-700 DPS a fight, which is often out parsing everyone in the group. Granted, I group with some horrible players sometimes (Like a Ranger and Wizard getting out parsed every fight by a Paladin) but I've consistantly been #1 in DPS for a while. If I'm grouping with someone that knows what they're doing, then I'll hold a mean #2 in DPS and that's with a T6 legendary piercer and no fabled gear (xegonite/acrylia mainly).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was a change that everyone knew was coming, but nobody wanted to come. I welcome the change as I took the Wis line for style and I thought that nobody else would. But everyone else is because of the outrageous DPS increase.</DIV>

[Ventureinoz]

<P>Free /respec and a refund on the 1.8p 1 hander I bought YESTERDAY might be nice.</P> <P>Perhaps that STA line thread is starting to look more appealing now, even more so for PvP.</P> <P> </P> <P>On another note, anyone have an accurate list of our AA's ?    I have looked at the list on page 5 of our AA thread and some of the things listed just dont match up ingame. For instance, unencumberance is listed as what? 42% at trank 4 or something ?<BR>but ingame last night it shows my next upgrade as 33% for rank 5.</P> <P>Also cant seem to find any info on freehand reversal giving 20% DA</P> <P>Anyone able to point me in the right direction ?</P>

[Aieckelle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR>I only have a problem cuz they all post the same thing, doom and gloom, soe hates rouges (spelled wrong on purpose), then some wild claim about being T3 or T4 DPS now.  They don't bother reading the thread which has stated time and time again that it is still a DPS increase.<BR><BR>Summoners are getting the bat in this same LU with spell procs being based off casting time, and of course this effects classes they are already low dps (enchanters, bards) so it has had huge negative feedback.  That is why changes like this take forever.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It may be right that i didn't have post a lot of time, but that don't mean that I am completly stupid. Saying that some good bard and some good pally can have a great dps seem absurd to you, so be it... but that's true... I have see it on a parse. Now what i see is that the brawler look like one of the best dps class like they were before the combat revamp... they got their tanking ability and got their dps back. Rangers have got the nerf bat as we are gonna have. And you think that cause i don't have post a million time i should shut up!!! Hey Who are you ?   You may think that the wisdom line will still give a dps increase, but will it really worth giving the DW... for that i am not sure... That was my opinion... You didn't had to got on my back like that cause i haven't post like you did... but you can be a jerk cause you have posted a million time i suppose that give you the right to do it ! Anyway... When it will goes lives... will see what will happend !</P> <P>Kayli</P><p>Message Edited by Aieckelle on <span class=date_text>04-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 PM</span>

[Fouri]

<DIV>Double Attack with no procs makes this line of AA just <EM><STRONG>slightly</STRONG> </EM>better than duel-wield w/o any AA (29% percent better with 8 points in Freehand Reversal, but that's only non-proc autoattack damage which typically is a much lesser amount of damage compared to CA damage)  For those whose auto-attack damage represents 25% of their total dps, this nets between 7% and 8% overall dps increase which gets further reduced when compared to an offhand weapon that's procing!  How can this <EM>fix</EM> make sense to anyone?  At least when you duel-wield w/o any AA you can proc effects that are inherent to your offhand weapon.  How can spending 20+ AA make you about as effective as spending no AA?!?!  This nerf is too much.  Something else has to change with this line for it to make any sense.  Maybe remove only the DA poison procs but leave all other procs.  Sheesh!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How could anyone see this coming?  That is, a nerf to an AA line that would make the player about as effective as having '0' AA?  Spare us, don't even suggest that Lunge Reversal and the barely improved parry/riposte makes this line a significant improvement alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edited:  Nerfed DA is slightly better then DW, instead of worse.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fourier on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 AM</span>

[SageGaspar]

Not really? You should get more damage off equivalent-tier one-hander with full 72% double attack than a dual wield. Plus the advantage of only needing one awesome weapon as opposed to two, and also competing against tanks instead of scouts.One thing I would suggest that'd be nice is to allow weapon procs to proc off the double hit, but I'm not really going to get too upset either way.<div></div>

[MrDiz]

I actually took the wis line to get the procs NOT for dps but for the interupts and the de-aggro proc. This obviously now is not gonna happen.My biggest concern for this line now is the fact that 1hers are seemingly pretty crapola. Best dps ive found on a 1her so far is 65. I have 2 dual wields that are 55dps. Now im doing wurmslayer having no idea what the stats are on the 1her, but hoping they are good. But when it comes down to it im having trouble how a 65dps 1her can do more dps than 2dw that rate 110 together. So without the procs im left with the feeling that apart from sheer style, there is no reason to take wisdom, and every reason not to.Now im hoping someone can argue it to make a 65dps 1her under str/wis lines look better than 2 55dps dw under str/agi lines because frankly I love the look. But I am in a raid guild and I cant totally abandon the numbers game in favour of style <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[overfloat]

<P>Wow, all these new, never-before-seen faces suddenly coming out of the woodwork to complain about nerfs. Didn't see that coming. The cynical side of me wants to say the major naysaying and whining here is probably coming from people who picked up and PL'd swashbucklers post-DoF when they became the FotM class... but that would be rude and unwelcoming, so I won't say that. But it is odd how all the level-headed regulars in this forum were able to see the change coming and are dealing with it well, while the complaints about this crippling the class are coming from names we've never seen before.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyone who was caught unawares by this change has had their head in the sand, and/or is clueless about both the class and the changes it and the game mechanics have undergone since DoF. I've already mentioned the reasons and why this was a forseeable fix. As for the class being crippled by this, affecting hate loss as well as DPS, nerf after nerf, yada yada ... swashbucklers were doing perfectly well before KoS, and we'll continue to do perfectly well after this fix. If you're relying on the extra procs to play your class properly, you've just been getting lazy.</P> <P>Will the WIS line still be a worthwhile investment? *shrug* I probably still won't take it, I'd rather leave pure DPS to the classes who do it best while I branch out with a little more utility. The advantage of the WIS line was always going to be marginal, just like the advantage of any of our other AA branches. AAs aren't meant to be the hugely powerful, class-redefining skills they were in EQ1. They're extra little tricks, small boosts and bonuses, customisations and extra "definition" for your particular playstyle. We're not meant to be a pure DPS class, therefore any AA branch that focused primarily on granting us additional DPS was obviously going to be "costly" in terms of both AA points and other utility (by removing our offhand). Being pretty sure this fix was coming, I avoided WIS because, personally, I think I can get a much better return on my AA investment from other lines. If you went with WIS for the big numbers (especially if you respecced to it, ouch) ... sorry, it sucks when nerfs cost you time or game cash so I do sympathise, but don't say you weren't warned or didn't realise the major damage boost you were getting.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fourier wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How could anyone see this coming?  That is, a nerf to an AA line that would make the player about as effective as having '0' AA?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI>3/3 - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9709#M9709" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9709#M9709</A></LI> <LI>3/19 - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10199#M10199" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10199#M10199</A></LI> <LI>3/20  -  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10231#M10231" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=10231#M10231</A><BR></LI></UL> <P>And it wasn't just me...</P> <UL> <LI>3/1 - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9589#M9589" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9589#M9589</A></LI></UL> <P>As for whether WIS is worthwhile at all (ignoring the additional procs), just one of many posts from waaaay back...</P> <UL> <LI>2/28 - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9515#M9515" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9515#M9515</A></LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>This forum was covered head to toe in discussion about this 2 months ago.</P> <P>Everyone was well aware that the base DPS advantage of the WIS line (ignoring the multiple proc issue) was going to be <EM>fractional</EM> at best, and that it would require a massive investment of AA points before it even managed to match DW DPS.</P> <P>Everyone also eventually became aware (after the first few people started posting WIS experiences) that the only real DPS advantage would come from the absurd extra proc rate they were seeing -- and, as such, everyone was given <STRONG><U>plenty</U></STRONG> of warning that it was incredibly likely that this would be fixed, and the extra procs removed, in the relatively short term.</P> <P>Some of us actually <EM>specifically</EM> warned people away from taking or respeccing to WIS if they were basing their choice solely on the DPS from the unintentional extra procs, because eventually they would be disappointed when it got fixed.</P> <P> </P> <P>So hopefully you'll understand why we're not hugely sympathetic to complaints and whines in this very same forum about this issue getting fixed as predicted. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:I actually took the wis line to get the procs NOT for dps but for the interupts and the de-aggro proc. This obviously now is not gonna happen.My biggest concern for this line now is the fact that 1hers are seemingly pretty crapola. Best dps ive found on a 1her so far is 65. I have 2 dual wields that are 55dps. Now im doing wurmslayer having no idea what the stats are on the 1her, but hoping they are good. But when it comes down to it im having trouble how a 65dps 1her can do more dps than 2dw that rate 110 together. So without the procs im left with the feeling that apart from sheer style, there is no reason to take wisdom, and every reason not to.Now im hoping someone can argue it to make a 65dps 1her under str/wis lines look better than 2 55dps dw under str/agi lines because frankly I love the look. But I am in a raid guild and I cant totally abandon the numbers game in favour of style <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>That just depends on how much DPS Avast Ye does at rank 8, but it's gonna be close either way.</div>

[Zygwen]

Frostwrath has a rating of 77. The best fabled onehander probably have around 80. However, we can also use two handed Wyrmsteel which is 104. Wis line will still be very much viable after the change. I'm sticking with wis line for several reasons. 1. The look. 2. Extra avoidance 3. One less slot to spend dkp on. 4. No body in raid seems to want one handed weapons. As opposed to those highly sought after dual wields. 5. Don't underestimate Lung Reversal. The Agi line doesn't really grab me. If I respect I would have gone STA or INT but for a combination of raiding and soloing I find Wis line very attractive. The only problem is, fencing with an axe looks silly. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Fouri]

<DIV>I love this forum and I go to it to improve my game.  You guys that post alot have a lot to contribute and it's appreciated!  Don't underestimate how many of us read the news, but don't neccessarily make the news.  And don't underestimate our love of the game and our quality play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What makes this forum so popular with us is the facts (parsing results) as well as the opinions - all in a helpful and mature tone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My comment:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> Fourier wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How could anyone see this coming?  That is, a nerf to an AA line that would make the player about as effective as having '0' AA?</DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...was not suggesting that no one saw the nerf coming, but as implemented who would want it or expect that is should be downgraded to weak-sauce?  It was not intended to suggest it was not forseen or to jab at those that forsaw it.  I apologize if some took offense.  The 'I told you so tone' is out of character for this forum.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> overfloater wrote:<BR> <P>As for whether WIS is worthwhile at all (ignoring the additional procs), just one of many posts from waaaay back...</P> <UL> <LI>2/28 - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9515#M9515" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=9515#M9515</A></LI></UL> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually this post did not <EM>ignore</EM> the additional procs, it was unaware and uninformed of them.  Dakkon provided the accurate information 30mins later with his actual experience.  (A poster, at the time, coming out of the woodwork - the irony.)  But that's OK.  My only point is that real experience is taken seriously and conjecture/predictions with a grain of salt - but they do help us make informed decisions.</DIV>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fourier wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...was not suggesting that no one saw the nerf coming, but as implemented who would want it or expect that is should be downgraded to weak-sauce?  It was not intended to suggest it was not forseen or to jab at those that forsaw it.  I apologize if some took offense.  The 'I told you so tone' is out of character for this forum.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yeah, apologies for the "I told you so" tone. Specifically tried to avoid that in my first post in this thread, then just gave up for that last one cos I couldn't figure a way around it while making my point. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I've spent quite a lot of time debunking myths and "nerf" cries over the past 8 months (poison changes around LU#18 were a favourite, heh), even preempting them in this case. So it's a little frustrating when people still claim that changes are totally out-of-the-blue despite warnings and predictions; even more irritating when the implication is that we're enduring nerf after nerf after nerf, woe is us, the whole class setup is wrecked -- no deaggro procs from double attack causing aggro issues, no interrupts borking utility, huge DPS loss putting us out of whack for the DPS tiers, etc. -- from a change to just a single AA skill. Heck, if nothing else, the extent of the reaction shows that the double attack procs were overpowered!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> Actually this post did not <EM>ignore</EM> the additional procs, it was unaware and uninformed of them.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well I really meant I'm ignoring the additional proc issue <EM>now</EM>, not that I was ignoring it in that post. The proc issue was irrelevant to this part.</P> <P>The point was that even back then we were having <U>exactly</U> the same discussion: in the absence of double attack procs <FONT size=1>(whether that's because you're unaware of them or just unable to benefit from them any more)</FONT>, is the <EM>base</EM> DPS increase from the WIS branch really worth it?</P> <P>And my argument back then - before anyone was aware of the double attack procs - is exactly the same as your argument now that the procs are being removed: the WIS branch is very weak considering the AA cost and conditions attached to it. We knew at the outset that WIS was a very weak AA branch. That's why there was so much discussion about it at first. Everyone wanted parses and proof before they committed their points to it. Very few people were willing to jump in with both feet based on just the apparent base DPS increase as the cost vs. reward seemed very harsh. It was only after the proc issue arose that it suddenly became the FotM branch.</P> <P>Therefore, factor in the initial prediction and warnings that the procs would eventually be removed, and you have a bunch of people taking a very weak AA branch on the basis of a <EM>temporary</EM> DPS boost from what was essentially a bug. And now many of those people are acting surprised that it's so weak after the predicted fix actually gets implemented.</P> <P>Are some people still able to benefit from the WIS branch? Sure, if they're able to access a nice 1H (or 2H) weapon and if they're unconcerned enough about the utility potential of other branches to dump a <EM>significant</EM> number of AAs into it. We're back to the original discussions again. You really need to max out the critical WIS abilities to Rank 8 to see any real benefit over DW, which is very expensive.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, blah blah, I'm rehashing the same points. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You're absolutely right, I didn't expect people to drop WIS completely at the outset just because of my prediction and warning. But just as irritating as an "I told you so" post is a "Why is this necessary?!" post when it was reasoned out nearly 2 months ago! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit: speeling and clarity</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Ildarus]

Ok, what is all the fuss about. I think we have way to much complaining going on and not enough fun. Swashies rule and if you got to analyse every point of DPS to try and prove it then you aren't playing the class to have fun. I have a couple points here. The 1st is Swashies ruled before AA and KoS and the change to the wisdom line will not change that. The second, the AA's were not meant to make any one class have a better advantage than they did before. So if this AA was giving and advantage then of course they will nerf it. I haven't taken any AA's points in the wisdom line and I was still wanted in groups for my DPS. As a matter of fact it was commented several times this weekend when I came back from being AFK that my DPS was sorely missed. Heck, I am 57 and if I duo with a good tank, we can take down level 62 or 63 heroics with just my DPS and we can do it in about 45 seconds. So all this BS about the wisdom AA line and all the time you are all spending analyzing it you could instead be having fun playing the best class in this game.

[dagoo7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> overfloater wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>The point was that even back then we were having <U>exactly</U> the same discussion: in the absence of double attack procs <FONT size=1>(whether that's because you're unaware of them or just unable to benefit from them any more)</FONT>, is the <EM>base</EM> DPS increase from the WIS branch really worth it?And my argument back then - before anyone was aware of the double attack procs - is exactly the same as your argument now that the procs are being removed: the WIS branch is very weak considering the AA cost and conditions attached to it. We knew at the outset that WIS was a very weak AA branch. That's why there was so much discussion about it at first. Everyone wanted parses and proof before they committed their points to it. Very few people were willing to jump in with both feet based on just the apparent base DPS increase as the cost vs. reward seemed very harsh. It was only after the proc issue arose that it suddenly became the FotM branch.</P> <P>Therefore, factor in the initial prediction and warnings that the procs would eventually be removed, and you have a bunch of people taking a very weak AA branch on the basis of a <EM>temporary</EM> DPS boost from what was essentially a bug. And now many of those people are acting surprised that it's so weak after the predicted fix actually gets implemented.</P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit: speeling and clarity</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by overfloater on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I understand from whence your coming, but I take issue with your frequent assertions along the lines of "we always knew was a weak branch" and implying that from the outset everyone knew wisdom was krap and the only reason people were putting points was to take advantage of proc exploits.  </P> <P>Many of the threads you referenced, have in depth analyses from Keldoth and others looking purely at the autoattack dps benefits and break even points, without taking into account the proc benefits, only viewing these as a nice but likely temporary bonus.  When I chose the wisdom line, I did it based on those numbers not to take advantage of an exploit.   I was initially upset at this announcement only because it appeared to be directed solely at rogues and not others who were also benefitting greatly from this mechanic.</P> <P>I also think you are dismissing the value of some of the other benefits of the line.  Lunge reversal is a great addition to dps when soloing or tanking, as is the parry/riposte boost.  The fact that it takes so many points to break even/exceed dw is therefore not that big a deal as these are by no means "wasted points."  </P> <P>In addition, your implication is that there are other lines which are clearly so much better than wisdom.  I for one am not too impressed with any of the other lines at least from the perspective of my playstyle (primarily small group and solo).  The crit boost is nice but only results in a small boost to net dps.  The positional proc from agility line from what I hear is not that great.  If you don't generally experience aggro issues, int doesnt provide much of a bonus.  And stamina only worthwhile if you plan to tank on a regular basis.</P> <P>I generally agree with and understand your point of view, but the potential implications that those who went wisdom line must have been either idiots or exploiters is definitely not fair and/or justified.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

[tawek]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> A few extracts from Aieckelle's above:<BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV>Ok, i wrote that yesterday when i was a bit frustated... sorry...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have slept on that ... and yeah i knew it was coming but I prolly didn't wanted to see it coming ... I am an old swashy, that for a moment was dreaming to be a top dps, but in fact I had kinda lost my way, thinking for a moment that only dps matters. ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. for the fact that I don't have a lot of post, it's mostly because before i wasn't sure of my english, nor i am now. I am a french Canadian that have mostly learn english over Everquest. ...<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I admit I've been a little disappointed by some of the posts in this thread, but I liked this one by Aieckelle.</P> <P>This swashie Forum has been unusual for its good humor and common sense.  I hope more of us are willing to admit a change of opinion after we've slept on an issue.  Good for you Aieckelle.</P> <P>As for your English, it's not bad.  You are communicating fairly complex arguments, and successfully understanding other people's posts.  I think it's awesome you're improving your English while playing EQ.  lol ... I can see SoE wanting to use your idea as a marketing tool in non-English-speaking countries.</P> <P>And now my prediction ...</P> <P>After a momentary lapse, the swashie forum will return to its calm, reasonable, humorous norm.  This is probably because the class attracts players who are after a well-balanced, but not overpowerful, class, who enjoy the game, and appreciate the good job SoE has done with the game.</P> <P>PS  Thanks to Aeralik for a prompt intervention into the thread.  Nice to know SoE staff are reading the swashie forum.</P></DIV>

[Sadaen]

<P>I posted this before when we  were still hashing out templates but I think I will give it a go now and see how it pans out.. Here it is again</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Strength Branch - Level 1 <U><EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>(go to lvl 4)<BR></FONT></EM></U></STRONG><EM>Blackguard's Strength</EM> Increases the Blackguard's strength. Passive Spell.<BR>Rank4: STR +16.<BR><BR><STRONG>Strength Branch - Level 2<U><EM> </EM></U></STRONG></FONT><STRONG><U><EM>(go to lvl 4)<BR></EM></U></STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000><EM>Torporous Strike</EM> A melee sword attack that reduces the target's chances of any critical stirke<BR><BR><STRONG>Strength Branch - Level 3</STRONG></FONT><STRONG><EM><U> (go to lvl 4)<BR></U></EM></STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000><EM>Blackguard's Defense</EM> Increases the Blackguard's defense skill. Passive Spell.<BR>Rank4: Defense +12.7<BR><BR><STRONG>Strength Branch - Level 4 <FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></STRONG></FONT><U><EM><STRONG>(go to lvl <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></EM></U><FONT color=#ff0000><BR><FONT color=#ff0000><EM>Blackguard's Luck</EM> Increases the Blackguard's chances at critical melee damage. Passive Spell.<BR>Rank4: Increases melee Crit Chance by 7.0% </FONT></FONT></P> <P>Total points so far 21 (including pick pocket)</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#00cc00>Agility Branch - Level 1 </FONT><EM><U>(go to lvl 4)</U></EM></STRONG><FONT color=#00cc00><BR><EM>Pirate's Agility</EM> Increases the Pirate's agility. Passive Spell.<BR>Rank4: AGI +20.<BR><BR><STRONG>Agility Branch - Level 2 </STRONG></FONT><U><EM><STRONG>(go to lvl 4)</STRONG></EM></U><BR><FONT color=#00cc00><I>Walk the Plank</I> A melee rapier attack that causes the target to turn around for a short duration. 30 sec recast. Rapier required in Primary.<BR>Rank4: 83-138 dmg, 2.0 sec duration. Rank5: 95-158 dmg, 2.4 sec. Rank8: 118-198, 3.0 sec.<BR><BR><STRONG>Agility Branch - Level 3 </STRONG></FONT><U><EM><STRONG>(go to lvl 4)</STRONG></EM></U><BR><FONT color=#00cc00><I>Commandeer</I> Increases in-combat movement speed. Passive Spell.<BR>Rank4: 5%<BR><BR><STRONG>Agility Branch - Level 4 </STRONG></FONT><U><EM><STRONG>(go to lvl <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></EM></U><BR><FONT color=#00cc00><I>Avast Ye</I> Permanent dmg proc buff. Passive Spell. Must be Flanking or Behind.<BR>Rank4: 8% Chance to cast Pirate Stab, 117-196 piercing dmg. </FONT><BR></P> <P>It will leave 9 Points left over have not really looked in to what to put that maybe Swipe in the last line of str.</P>

[tawek]

<DIV>Sadaen,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldn't recommend the Agility line if you're not going for the final skill, Sailwind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some folk posting about Agility talk about the Avast Ye dps proc as the reason to go with this line.</DIV> <DIV>When I've looked at logs the number of procs with Avast Ye at rank 4 (8%) have been disappointing.  The number of procs is far less than 8% of my autoattacks, which indicates that, as to be expected from a proc, it only has a chance to happen every 3 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means a proc every 25-30 seconds for 117-196 damage (varies depending on your level).  It helps , but weak compared to, for example, the 213-356 attack you get from Torporous Strike (Level 2, Strength Branch), or 249-416 from Lunge Reversal (Level 2/rank 4 Wisdom Branch), or 358-597 from Traumatic Swipe (level 5, Strength Branch)<BR></DIV> <DIV>When not in extended fights with epics, you'll probably get Torporous Strike off more often than a proc of Avast Ye, because breaks between fights will let recast timers refresh.  When soloing, Avast Ye will rarely go off (is a flank attack).  In raids, you'll be using the strength attacks as much as possible for debuffing purposes, and the extra damage you also do will probably be more than from Avast Ye.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously, Commandeer is fantastic for PvP, but limited use for PvE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Walk the Plank is a great skill if you have a rapier.  Sadly, in a Str/Agi combo, that would mean your couldn't use Torporous Strike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've gone Agi 4/4/4/4/8 Str 4/4 so far.  I love Sailwind, but use a sword (mainly because I can't find a decent rapier).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now Wisdom is being nerfed and is no longer the Flavor of the Month (FotM) ... I'm tempted to try Wisdom.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Awlis]

<P>Thought I would look into figures here</P> <P>Parsing from last 3 days plays give me 27% of my dmg from proc... interrupt, sword proc posion hurrican daring earing proc.</P> <P>If I have 72% double attack (i have maxed out wis) then by my calculations (which maybe well off) 41% of my total attacks are from a double attack, if I lose the chance to proc on those I will lose in all 11% of my total damage output.</P> <P>Harse? yes.. as bad as i thought? probably not</P> <P> </P> <P>what i really need to do is compare dps from wis to normal DW</P>

[Zygwen]

8% procs over 3 seconds =  1.6 procs per minute 1.6 procs * 196 damage / 60 seconds = 5.22 damage per second. That is how much dps Avast Ye provides for straight auto attack before debuffs and crits. Traumatic swipe iirc is on a 60 second timer so worse case it does 358 damage a minute 358 / 60 = 5.966 damage per second before debuffs and crits Best case is 597 / 60 = 9.95 damage per second before debuffs and crits These are very small increases. <div></div>

[Keldo]

TSwipe is 30 seconds, but DPS or no DPS any raiding rogue should have it, unless you have many other rogues in your raidforce whom already have it. <div></div>

[Geero]

<DIV>To anyone who picked swashy for DPS scout...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry you picked the wrong class, go play assasin/ranger...</DIV> <DIV>We were meant to be tier 2 dps and we are doing too much damage right now.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats the bottom line.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can disagree all you want, but that's the truth and stop all this whining and crying.</DIV>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dagoo7 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I understand from whence your coming, but I take issue with your frequent assertions along the lines of "we always knew was a weak branch" and implying that from the outset everyone knew wisdom was krap and the only reason people were putting points was to take advantage of proc exploits.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call it an exploit... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>By no means do I think that <EM>everyone</EM> who took the WIS branch did so because of the double attack procs. Like I said, there were some people who went straight for WIS before anyone knew about the procs, whether that was because they didn't like the other branches, because they valued the extra DPS over extra utility, or simply because they liked the one-handed style. Originally, though, there were very few people who were willing to jump onto the WIS branch without seeing parses and knowing that double attacks would proc.</P> <P>But... that doesn't change the fact that WIS quite obviously became FotM <EM>after</EM> the double proc factor was discovered. The sheer presence (and length) of this thread and the content of many of the posts shows you that many people <EM>did</EM> choose WIS solely because of the extra DPS from procs. It was apparent to some of us before parses were available, and it was definitely obvious to everyone after parses that the extra procs were both unintentional and overpowered. So, while I don't think <EM>everyone</EM> was just out to "exploit", don't fool yourself into thinking that everybody who chose WIS was innocently oblivious to the proc issue. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In fact, I could point out posts from several different people back when it was first discovered saying that double attack procs <EM>were</EM> the major reason for taking the WIS branch.</P> <P>I'm pretty sure no other single rogue AA ability could generate a 4-page "nerf!" complaint thread this fast, which speaks volumes!</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Many of the threads you referenced, have in depth analyses from Keldoth and others looking purely at the autoattack dps benefits and break even points, without taking into account the proc benefits, only viewing these as a nice but likely temporary bonus.  When I chose the wisdom line, I did it based on those numbers not to take advantage of an exploit. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I spent a long time during KoS beta and right after it went live comparing 1H and DW damage ratings, AA point expenditure, break-even points and other tradeoffs for the WIS branch on the forums without referencing parses directly (and hence no proc benefits). There was a <U>lot</U> of discussion about it. Some people, like yourself, went for WIS in the face of those arguments as you believed the tradeoff worthwhile for your playstyle. It <EM>is</EM> possible to make the WIS line work for you in the absence of double attack procs, it just depends how many points you're willing to commit to it. Personally I still think it offers very limited cost vs. reward in light of the other potential utility you sacrifice -- if you want to make full use of the WIS line (esp. Coule), you'll severely hamper any other branches you wish to pursue.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> I also think you are dismissing the value of some of the other benefits of the line.  Lunge reversal is a great addition to dps when soloing or tanking, as is the parry/riposte boost.  The fact that it takes so many points to break even/exceed dw is therefore not that big a deal as these are by no means "wasted points."  <P>...</P> <P>In addition, your implication is that there are other lines which are clearly so much better than wisdom.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Most AA skills have relatively marginal effects, so the other WIS abilities certainly shouldn't be dismissed. That said, increased DPS was generally the most appealing factor to most people, and it's really increased <EM>sustained</EM> DPS, not burst. The majority of people discussing WIS originally as a nice sustained DPS boost were doing so from a raiding perspective, as this is where the boost really pays off. Yet in a raid scenario, LR and the parry/riposte play basically no part. In that light they are only "filler" material.</P> <P>This was the issue I had with WIS initially: While each skill individually matched the one-handed "fencer" concept, the skills didn't gel together well for a single (or even a broad) practical function. The other branches aren't "better", per se. Everyone's playstyle demands different things and all the effects are marginal in the grand scheme of things. But skills in the other branches generally gel together as a functional unit far better than WIS, and/or offer much greater flexibility in terms of utility. STR and AGI offer a far greater variety of utility, whereas STA and INT gel much better as functional units.</P> <P>WIS is kind of a hodge-podge mix of different playstyles. As a branch, it has little/no utility -- the parry/riposte is pretty much the only utility, and it's only a very minor increase if you're actually looking at it as a tanking/soloing benefit. Ditto for LR. To the point that I'd say the <EM>main</EM> focus of WIS is generating extra DPS, whether through double attacks, improved hit rate or marginally increased ripostes.</P> <P>The weird thing is that its DPS generation is spread across playstyles: double attack is <EM>significantly</EM> less effective while soloing, yet this is when LR and the ripostes are most useful. On the flipside, double attack comes into its own when raiding, but in this scenario LR and ripostes are utterly redundant. In addition, you cannot afford to take WIS.2 and WIS.3 without taking WIS.4 to at least Rank 4 (or was it Rank 5?) because the loss of offhand would make the LR and riposte DPS redundant (unless you regard LR and the parry/riposte as such significant defensive utility that you'd give up the offhand for them anyway... but I don't think many people would do that!).</P> <P>Unless you're tanking, you're never really going to see maximum benefit from all the WIS skills at once... but if you're tanking, you'd do better to pick the STA line anyway. You could argue that there's useful utility in being able to use the WIS abilities in different scenarios, but I think you could probably find more effective flexibility in combinations of other branches -- and in those branches, you don't have to "commit" to investing a minimum of 16 points to break even on DPS, you have more freedom in spreading points around.</P> <P>See where my argument is coming from? Not sure if I'm making any sense... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm sure some people can and will make the WIS branch work well for them but, as far as design and game mechanics are concerned, I still think it's a very "awkward" branch. If you already took the branch primarily for the double attack and Coule, then the first two WIS skills are certainly a nice bonus, not just a waste of space. But as far as starting from scratch and planning for a specific playstyle goes, WIS just won't fit for most people. Certainly not as many as those who have taken WIS over the past two months. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You'll be able to tell those people whom the WIS branch doesn't really suit, because they're the ones who are busy figuring out how to respec now!</P> <P> </P> <P>Sorry, another long post. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not trying to pin the "FotM fanboi" tag on everyone, just trying to show how I think the double attack procs and huge DPS were the only thing that really attracted a lot of people.</P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 PM</span>

[SmCaudata]

Here is the problem with the bug fix proposed here.  As so many of the wise high post count people are touting, the AA trees are meant for flavor and to differentiate and provide a bonus to abilities.  Look at the other trees, none of them take away any abilities with the exception being the STA line and requiring defensive stance.  Even then though you are using a swasy ability.  So in all the trees every AA point spent really benefits the player.The strength line has increased crit chance. It may be small but every bit makes things better.  It also gives STR as a bonus stat for the first 4 points, very helpful to those that may not raid 100% of the time and maxing stats may not happen.  Oh, and on the way to the very nice top tier ability you also get a damage CA and a boost to defense.  Hmm...all positive.The int line gives extra abilities.  More stealth and deaggro stuff.  Not a contributor to damage, but again, every point helps.Agi line.  This line again gives abilities for each point.  Walk the plank can be great for turning a mob away from healers for a few seconds and the extra damage proc is extra damage no mater how minimal.  Also, the top ability is really nice for getting all our debuffs in faster.Stamina provides great defensive bonuses, and for those that pick this style of play with their swashy it is awesome.  In fact, it is arguable the best (design wise) line out there because it truly specializes the character.  You loose some damage, but if you are hitting the DPS cap, like some casual players or duos may not, you gain back the offhand weapon damage AND get the defensive bonuses.  This line is awesome.  The only problem is that end game requires players to not only debuff but to maximize damge and this does not fit.  Again, a superior line with a playstyle that doesn't fit the game very well.Now the wisdom line. The stat is arguably of little use. Lunge reversal is nice, but really is it much better than the 2nd tier str  skill?  It does more damage but it doesn't have any associated debuffs. The next tier gives increased defensive bonuses.  Who cares?  I had to give up a shield to take the tier, it better.  So I get the shield bonuses back but I don't get any type of defensive procs or stats on said shield.  My guess is that a fabled round shield is better in the long run if you want defense.  Not only that, but the investment to make this skill worthwile is high in point cost.  Now we get to the double attacks.  Yes, this is very nice, but as as I said above, you are a weaker swashy until you put in a high number of points.  Even after all those points, where are you?  You don't get the stats from the other trees.  You don't get the stats from a secondary item. You don't get the proc from a secondary item.  You don't get the offhand damage and you don't get defense from a shield.  So, in the end you get slightly better auto attack damage and better defenses than if you were dual wielding.  The top tier ability does not seem to be nearly as nice as any of the others.So, they broke this AA.  It requires huge point costs just to get back to a dual wielder without any AA spent let alone see gains that you see from every single point in any other branch.  Fact is, I want to carry 1 weapon because I think it looks cool.  Although a weapon and a parrying dagger that you don't attack with would be fun as well, but that isn't an option.  As others have said above this tree is no longer comparable to any of the others.  It requires huge AA investment to see any gain at all, and it is doubtful if those gains actually compare to the other lines now.  Was it too much before?  Yes, I agree here.  It was very obvious that it needed to be fixed.  Taking the simple route of removing procs though goes the other way.  The goal was to create a 1hd swashy that would be as viable as the other branches.  The wis branch now only affects damge output and taking.  It has no form of debuff, hate management, or general utility.  A damge line should be the best for damage.  If they don't want this line to be a damge line then give useful abilities.  Maybe a distraction ability that can cause a target to have % chance to fail a spell/CA. I don't know.  It needs something.Well, that is probably enough.  It seems that this thread turned into those complaining and those bahing the complainers.  There has been little comparison between trees and there has been no suggestions to fix it properly instead of the quick fix that will [Removed for Content] the line.  Personally, I am still going to spec Wis once I get enough AA to make it break even (see the tree is broken) simply because I am not in a raiding guild and I am a more casual player and that DPS if of less concern to me than the fun I have playing the game with my guildies.  suggesttions:Maybe it should start out with +50% DA and then +x% every point after that.  Maybe have it max out at +100% DW.  Then it would be like carrying 2 1 handers.  Yes, this is more damage but it is less than dual proccing poisons and as I said above it is melee combat tree since it has no specail circumstances skills in it.Give some actually non-combat benefits/skills if this is not meant to be a damage tree.Actually fix the DA properly.  The let DA have a chance to proc weapon procs and non-damage procs each swing and put poisons and other damage procs on first swing only.<div></div>

[dagoo7]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> overfloater wrote: <P>The weird thing is that its DPS generation is spread across playstyles: double attack is <EM>significantly</EM> less effective while soloing, yet this is when LR and the ripostes are most useful. </P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Not sure what you mean by "significantly less effective when soloing".  If your referring to haste/dps buffs, your right that this should improve the dps increase of wisdom even more.  But this doesn't limit the effectiveness of that dps increase solo.   Discounting procs, as we all are now, autoattack increase from dps should be noticeably beneficial in all situations.  This is in fact one of the reasons I still prefer wisdom line, you get a still significant autoattack dps increase (as Keldoth's numbers have shown) that is effective in any situation.  Solo, raid, back, front, flank, whatever.  I realize some of the other benefits are lost or minimal when raiding, but so are alot of the benefits from other lines.  Even if raiding was the be all, end all for me which it most definitely is not, I would still likely go wisdom and strength.  To me these two lines offer the most benefit in the most situations. </P> <P> I really don't see this huge opportunity cost you see as so drastic.  I also see alot of wasted points (opportunity cost) in other lines.  As far as strength goes, you have to sink as many points into that line to get the crit bonus, and other than the defense bonus which is nice but only useful if your getting hit, all your getting is the crit.  Torporous strike is really something of a waste and the strength boost is minimal unless for some reason you sink 8 points into it.</P> <P>For agility, walk the plank, only seems useful situationally, not that much use in raids/groups and solo if I want to backstab, I just use pure dd poisons and my mez, autoattack off, shadow slip macro.  The incombat speed boost might be useful in pvp and the damage proc requires flank (limiting its versatility) and according to others appears to be relatively minimal.  I really haven't felt a desperate need for better aggro control, so int doesn't seem that appealing to me unless your grouped with a bad tank.  Once again limited versatility.  Stamina is good as a "functional set" but clearly has less versatility IMO.</P> <P>I see your points, but  "tomato, tomatuh".  IMO wisdom is quite versatile and still the best outta the bunch, despite its "opportunity cost."  So post-proc change, business as usual for me.  Wisdom line up to but not including Coule, followed by strength line.  To me this provides the most versatility and general usefulness.  The fact that this can now be debated is a good sign of that FoTM issues are likely behind us, and that's fine with me.  The only thing that could possibly make me change is if I found that there were no good 1handers and available dual wields would somehow give me better dps despite the benefits of double attack.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[MrDiz]

Wow... did my first raid where I wasnt really under level ocmpared to mobs and i had unencumerance at 5/8 .... ok now i know why we got nerfed. I went through half a stack of poison and half a stack of debuff poison. 60% of my dps was from poison procs. And leaving autoattack and doing NO combat arts dropped my dps per fight by less than 20%. Probably good this nerf hits before i max the line out and get used to that sort of dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />BTW the wurmslayer we can use..... im guessing by no miracle it classifies as having off hand free in 2h form? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[verydanger]

In no way do I feel WIS line is 'broken' now. For the soloer/light tanker, its the best choice by far IMO. For the raider/pure DPS'er, the autoattack increase is just as helpful as the other T4 abilities in STR, AGI and INT lines - nothing huge, just a slight nudge in the right direction. I dont buy the whole 'costs too much AA points to pay off', in all the DPS increasing lines you need to spend 4-4-4-8 points to get the full benefit - nothing unique for the WIS line. Its true that until you have gotten your first 21 points WIS line might carry a penalty - but I dont see the point in discussing how to best spend 10 or 15 points, its only the final build (50 points, or at least 25) thats intresting.And I also dont see why losing your offhand proc is given so much relevance - whats the highest % of your total DPS your offhand proc ever has parsed? 5% chance to proc means you are projected to proc the effect ONCE A MINUTE (in pure autoattack mode). Even more rarely, if you are using CA's, or not fighting continually.Same thing goes for lost stats in offhand slot... how does 15-20 STR and power for one more CA even remotely compare to 15-20% higher autoattack?I was btw one of the people who respecced to WIS line after the 'double proc' feature became known. I saw the FoTM thing and I jumped on it - but I did so well knowing it was likely not going to last. Hence this change doesnt bother me one bit. :p<div></div>

[SmCaudata]

My comment of broken doesn't mean now, it soft of means always.  It is the only line where it gets worse before it gets better.  As a more casual player it will personally take me much longer to reach enough AA to make it worth it and Wis is the only line that basically requires you to save points, not use the abilitites in it, or respec into it if you don't want to get worse before it gets better.  This makes it seem like the line is broken.  If they fixed this and made every point a small improvement like every other line out there, then people would not complain.<div></div>

[Mion da Peon]

<DIV>Am I the only swashy that feels that the hurricane nerf in LU13 and the daring nerf in LU16 are completely unjustified?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>imho hurricane SHOULD proc 70 - 80 % of the time and daring SHOULD proc on every melee hit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The wis AA line let us reclaim these two skills from an oppressive "teir" system, while this nerf is just opening old wounds.  With down scaling, yes, the teir system is oppressive as policed by preds (for scouts) and enforced by SoE placating their demands to always be on top no matter the situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the damage of daring is raised by 70 % and hurricane set to a 75 % proc rate, the decreases to our other abilities would be bearable since this is how these two should have been since the start of DoF.</DIV>

[Tyr]

<div><blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:<div>I expected this change to come sooner rather then later..</div> <div>What Id like to know tho, why is it only rogue's double attack that is getting changed? We arent the only ones having this ability and even tho the combination of double attack+hurricane+haste+inspired makes us huge on AE damage its no excuse to only 'fix' us.</div> <div> </div> <div>I am somewhat glad that i wont go through some 20-30 poisons/raid night, but as we give up all stats on secondary hand those possible 72% better make up for it.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>When I looked at the Test Update notes, it looked like this: <font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Achievements ***</b></font> - Cleric: Divine Recovery's casting speed benefit has been changed to 50% instead of 100%. - Enchanter: Daydream no longer causes hate when cast and not resisted. - Enchanter: Sever Empathy no longer causes hate when cast and not resisted. - A successful double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc. I don't see it only targeting Rogues...</div>

[Keyh]

<div><blockquote><hr>Garosantith wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:<div>I expected this change to come sooner rather then later..</div> <div>What Id like to know tho, why is it only rogue's double attack that is getting changed? We arent the only ones having this ability and even tho the combination of double attack+hurricane+haste+inspired makes us huge on AE damage its no excuse to only 'fix' us.</div> <div> </div> <div>I am somewhat glad that i wont go through some 20-30 poisons/raid night, but as we give up all stats on secondary hand those possible 72% better make up for it.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>When I looked at the Test Update notes, it looked like this: <font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Achievements ***</b></font> - Cleric: Divine Recovery's casting speed benefit has been changed to 50% instead of 100%. - Enchanter: Daydream no longer causes hate when cast and not resisted. - Enchanter: Sever Empathy no longer causes hate when cast and not resisted. - A successful double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc. I don't see it only targeting Rogues...</div><hr></blockquote>In his defense, it originally mentioned only Rogues.</div>

[Tyr]

<div>Figured it was something like that... thanks Keyh.   Since I never planned on going wisdom, I don't feel the effects of this that most of you feel, though I do feel for you all.Tyric Greenblade64 Swashbuckler - Int 4-4-3First ProphecyBlackBurrow<blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div>In his defense, it originally mentioned only Rogues.</div><hr></blockquote></div>

[overfloat]

<P>A little short on time, but...</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dagoo7 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure what you mean by "significantly less effective when soloing". </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What I meant is that CAs generally form a much greater proportion of your DPS when soloing, except for those who say they just kill yellow solo mobs no sweat with autoattack alone, hehe. For me, at least, soloing is all about CAs and the autoattack DPS is negligible. On raids though (and, to a lesser extent, in groups) you'll usually see a <U>much</U> larger component of autoattack damage, so that's where you'll see the greatest benefit from double attack procs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's where I was going with that. Personally, if the skills could be picked individually,  I would <EM>never</EM> pick double attacks if I spent the majority of my time soloing and didn't really raid; but then I would <EM>never</EM> pick LR and the parry/riposte if my primary focus was raiding (or even grouping) . As it is, I <EM>hate </EM>soloing -- hence I would almost never find LR or the parry/riposte increase useful. The double attack DPS does sound attractive for groups (which are my focus) and raids but I'm not willing to dump 8 points into two abilities that would do nothing but collect dust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why it seems the WIS line is a slightly awkward split. Some people <EM>will</EM> like the branch and <EM>will</EM> find the different aspects useful, but the skills aren't so hot as a single functional unit the way (for example) STA and INT are. More like the WIS.2/WIS.3 and WIS.4 are almost... mutually exclusive (obviously not quite that extreme, but that's the direction I was going). <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not trying to criticise people who want to take WIS, nor is it a "weak" branch if it happens to suit your playstyle. But its functions are split in such a way that I think many/most people won't actually find it suits their playstyle: double attack isn't half as effective when soloing as it is when raiding; DA would be useful if tanking for a group, and so would LR and parry/riposte, but STA would be better; and DA  would come into its own when raiding or grouping, but then LR and parry/riposte are wasted. If you switch between all of those roles a lot, no doubt you can find a use for WIS. But if, like me, you tend towards just one or two of those roles and playstyles, I feel there's a better tradeoff of cost vs. utility (not necessarily DPS, don't get me wrong, WIS wins there) in a combination of other branches. All depends on how you play. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:57 PM</span>

[Zodi]

<P>All it takes for Soe to make a change is a bunch of whiners to cry their eyes out on the forums. </P> <P>I cannot believe that they are screwing you guys, when they are parse evidence from rangers thay are still on T1 slot. When Bruisers can out DPS scouts, when conjurers can out DPS everyone by double. </P> <P>I swear I think they pick classes out of hat and then decide how they are goign to change them for the so called balance fo the game. </P>

[Zodi]

<DIV>Well said brother.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>here is the deal everyone who whines on this game doesnt get their class upgraded they just get everyoen else nerfed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>W.A.R is coming out 2007 baby start your engine</FONT></DIV>

[Sadaen]

<DIV>The thing that amazes me most is, I could careless about Conj. DPS, Necro DPS, Ranger DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is these classes are in your guild, these classes are in your group if you whine and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan you are really hurting yourself in the long run IE: You are not grinding as fast, the Epic mob got off that last flurry, AE and you wiped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT if no one complained etc. maybe just ,maybe you might have gotten your lvl last night, killed GodKing etc. I am not saying SOE is not going to notice things but when people make 5 page threads about how a Conj. and his pet soloed WHINER^^^ and got all the phat lewts.. Bah just stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadaen</DIV> <DIV>68 Swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV>Blackburrow</DIV>

[Carna]

<P>My main is a Brigand but I do have some sympathy for the situation of classes like Rangers. I feel they warranted adjustment but they got nerfed because of the hue and cry on other class forums. Now that they've been adjusted are they supposed to just keep their mouths shut when Swashbucklers post on the Ranger forums that Swashbucklers out dps Rangers with their hands tied behind their backs?</P> <P>Given the performance of Rogues with WIS AA, and given the willingness of some Swashbucklers to dance and shout about it, it is not reasonable to suppose that the Tier 1 classes will just sit there with their mouths shut. There were no shortage of Swashbucklers prepaired to explain at length how Amazing Reflexes needed "fixed". There were no shortage of Swashbucklers able to bemoan Rangers being a T0 class. It is not reasonable then to simply label the other classes whiners because aspects of combat that impact Rogues are being brought inline.</P> <P>The biggest thing that drew dev attention to Rogue dps output was <STRONG>not</STRONG> other classes. It was Rogues. We're the ones that couldn't keep our mouths shut. And it wasn't just Swashbucklers. There's one prominant Brigand poster I could cite who is very fond of quoting his 2k raid dps.</P> <P>Lets just suck it up. See how it pans out and not turn into whiners ourselves... The Rogue classes played as much a part in this happening as any other class. The situation with Rogues and WIS AA <STRONG>was</STRONG> completely out of whack. It was going to be fixed. It was obvious to many people from very early on. It was obvious because the WIS AA made us Tier 1, and we're not a Tier 1 class. We provide an awful lot more than just dps.</P> <P>Leave the other classes alone. It's for the devs to sort them and my own suspicion is the devs are determined to bring the classes into some sort of balance before they role out extended betrayal. Some of the classes mentioned in this thread are having their damage output addressed.</P>

[SageGaspar]

The bottom line is that no class is responsible for nerfs.These discussions about "oooh T1 DPS got rogues nerfed" or "swashes helped get rangers and brigs nerfed" and the rest of it is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. For one thing you're lumping a group of people who use a message board into a coherent entity (which is simply not true), and for another you're assuming that people get nerfed because of message board posts.Look at this patch, we're getting a spell proc nerf. Is that because people were complaining about bards and chanters being overpowered?Finger-pointing like the devs are helpless to do anything besides the whim of twenty people on a message board is ludicrous almost to the point of hillarity.<div></div>

[Geero]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR>The bottom line is that no class is responsible for nerfs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>QFT</P> <P>If what other classes really mattered...  Summoners would be t5 dps. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Also, we should thank SOE for this nerf, since some people on blackburrow server think we are "exploiting".</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=101399&jump=true" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=101399&jump=true</A></P><p>Message Edited by Geero on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 PM</span>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR>The bottom line is that no class is responsible for nerfs.<BR><BR>These discussions about "oooh T1 DPS got rogues nerfed" or "swashes helped get rangers and brigs nerfed" and the rest of it is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. For one thing you're lumping a group of people who use a message board into a coherent entity (which is simply not true), and for another you're assuming that people get nerfed because of message board posts.<BR><BR>Look at this patch, we're getting a spell proc nerf. Is that because people were complaining about bards and chanters being overpowered?<BR><BR>Finger-pointing like the devs are helpless to do anything besides the whim of twenty people on a message board is ludicrous almost to the point of hillarity.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your experience of onlin role playing games does not then extend back very far or across much of a range. Consensus formed within the community visible to the devs whether the game be EQ2, WoW, DAoC or EQ1 most definately does impact the devs.<BR>

[overfloat]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <BR>Consensus formed within the community visible to the devs whether the game be EQ2, WoW, DAoC or EQ1 most definately does impact the devs.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think he was referring to the fact that your previous post implied that it was the fault of swashbucklers whining that AR got changed, that rangers had their DPS reduced, etc. As if classes purposefully pit themselves against each other and it's primarily the fault of one particular class that another gets nerfed. That may not be the way you meant it, but that's how it came across. Consensus opinion certainly isn't ignored completely but it's also not going to be the sole deciding factor in Dev changes.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <P>The biggest thing that drew dev attention to Rogue dps output was <STRONG>not</STRONG> other classes. It was Rogues. We're the ones that couldn't keep our mouths shut. And it wasn't just Swashbucklers. There's one prominant Brigand poster I could cite who is very fond of quoting his 2k raid dps.<BR></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Again, I don't think vocal rogues were the primary reason behind this change. This change needed to be made from the moment it went live, regardless of DPS parses after the fact, because it counteracted all the proc mechanic changes that the Devs had focused on since DoF. They've been trying to make proc opportunities <EM>less</EM> of a factor in subclass DPS, because procs make DPS limits far more variable and tricky to control, and double attack procs went and threw a massive spanner in the works, completely contrary to all the other proc changes in the last 6-8 months.<BR></P> <P>As Aeralik pointed out, this change wasn't aimed at rogues. Dev control over <EM>any</EM> subclass's DPS will be affected if they get an increased number of proc opportunities. And increased proc opp's will have the greatest effect on those classes that already get a lot of DPS potential from procs... hence rogues see a major impact.</P> <P>This isn't a nerf <EM>because</EM> rogues are doing too much damage; this is a change to give the Devs back more control over subclass DPS boundaries. It just happens that the rogue WIS AA line was a perfect illustration of <EM>why</EM> the Devs need to keep that control by keeping close tabs on proc opportunities.</P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 AM</span>

[Kegofbud]

<DIV>The way rogues were parsing with the WIS line, you had to know it was coming. If they keep track of the events at all, like they claim, there was no way to hide it. Doing better then T1 DPS classes - every fight - shows up. Knowing you were doing that much damage, you cannot say that you didn't for one second think that it wasn't meant to be. We shouldn't be procing everything we have on double attacks. It was meant to make 1 handers a viable option, not make us T1 DPS. See how it pans out and move on IMO.</DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> SageGaspar wrote:The bottom line is that no class is responsible for nerfs.These discussions about "oooh T1 DPS got rogues nerfed" or "swashes helped get rangers and brigs nerfed" and the rest of it is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. For one thing you're lumping a group of people who use a message board into a coherent entity (which is simply not true), and for another you're assuming that people get nerfed because of message board posts.Look at this patch, we're getting a spell proc nerf. Is that because people were complaining about bards and chanters being overpowered?Finger-pointing like the devs are helpless to do anything besides the whim of twenty people on a message board is ludicrous almost to the point of hillarity. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Your experience of onlin role playing games does not then extend back very far or across much of a range. Consensus formed within the community visible to the devs whether the game be EQ2, WoW, DAoC or EQ1 most definately does impact the devs.<hr></blockquote>Back to beta EQ1 my friend. The biggest, ultimate, omg must nerf posts are usually like ten vocal people going back and forth with the occasional noob wandering through and saying "gee that sucks that these people say my class sucks."Sure, swashbucklers helped call dev attention to the WIS line by posting huge DPS and then saying they expected it to be nerfed. I'm glad of this, just goes to show you that we have some great swashes here who aren't so busy trying to hide their 1337 damage and exploit a broken game mechanic.But regardless of who pointed what out to the devs, <i>the devs</i> are solely responsible for changes they make. They have their DPS charts, their facts and figures, they know the formulae and core mechanics of the game. They're neither beholden to a couple whiny people on the message boards nor locked into their suggested path for class balancing. Take your finger and point it squarely at the dev staff if you feel the need to be laying blame.</div>

[baddog]

after 8 months of hacks , a 'Major' combat revamp, an 3 More months of Hacks ,I'm glad these people work at SOE instead of somewhere Important.whats the POINT of paying for TWO dual wieldsinstead of one double hander, if they don't do more damage ?Whats the Point of getting faster weapons with less damage, if they don't have a chance to proc more often.Whats with this behind the scene BULL about normalization, or the Official Documentation about it ?Not some hack notes buried in SOEs continuing beta test.Whats the Point of Mulitple hit attacks, if they Don't Proc ? SOE hacking has turned a Positive Class trait into a Negative.Whats the Point of Buffs an Mods that Reduce CA cast times , when SOE Hacks turn another Positive into a Negative...and another off topic example, how far do you have to have your head up,to put the proceedure for marking Inventory Items NonSellable,In the ONLY place where you could sell them , with a mechanism that actually Includes the probablity of making the error ?a programmer, a supervisor, an a qa should be spending some quiet time in studyhall, or go back to flipping burgers<p>Message Edited by baddog on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 AM</span>

[Keyh]

<div><blockquote><hr>baddog wrote:after 8 months of hacks , a 'Major' combat revamp, an 3 More months of Hacks ,I'm glad these people work at SOE instead of somewhere Important.<font color="#0000ff">Welcome to the world of MMOs, honestly, you're not going to see much different in any MMO. They make swirling downward changes to everything and have to revamp. </font>whats the POINT of paying for TWO dual wieldsinstead of one double hander, if they don't do more damage ?<font color="#0000ff">Simple, dual wields often have more than half the stats that a two hander does. So you're getting more stats as well as more chances to actually hit your target. </font>Whats the Point of getting faster weapons with less damage, if they don't have a chance to proc more often.<font color="#0000ff">Inspired Daring/Inspiration</font>Whats with this behind the scene BULL about normalization, or the Official Documentation about it ?Not some hack notes buried in SOEs continuing beta test.<font color="#0000ff">If normalization wasn't implemented, everyone would be using the fastest weapons possible, NOBODY (exageration) would buy slow weapons. Normalization makes it so that the % to proc is every 3 seconds as opposed to every attack. I personally don't see a problem with it.</font>Whats the Point of Mulitple hit attacks, if they Don't Proc ? SOE hacking has turned a Positive Class trait into a Negative.<font color="#0000ff">I'm sure Monks were part of this. Hundred Fists or whatever that hits 8 times, that's 8 chances to proc, don't you think that's a bit much? Our flurries still proc ID though.</font>Whats the Point of Buffs an Mods that Reduce CA cast times , when SOE Hacks turn another Positive into a Negative...<font color="#0000ff">It's been stated that Buffs and Mods to casting timers do not effect the proc chance. If you have a spell that's 3 seconds long, but a buff that puts it to .25 seconds it will proc as though it were a 3 second spell.</font>and another off topic example, how far do you have to have your head up,to put the proceedure for marking Inventory Items NonSellable,In the ONLY place where you could sell them , with a mechanism that actually Includes the probablity of making the error ?<font color="#0000ff">[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are you talking about here?</font><p>Message Edited by baddog on <span class="date_text">04-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:41 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Krontak]

I think its a shame when anyone gets nerfed.  It hurts the overall guild dps in raids as far as I'm concerned.  I'd rather see SOE up other classes DPS rather than screwing with what people have been working towards and lowering others' skills to balance the invisible dps tiers out.

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><font color="#0000ff"></font><blockquote>Whats the Point of Mulitple hit attacks, if they Don't Proc ? SOE hacking has turned a Positive Class trait into a Negative.<font color="#0000ff">I'm sure Monks were part of this. Hundred Fists or whatever that hits 8 times, that's 8 chances to proc, don't you think that's a bit much? Our flurries still proc ID though.</font></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>I agree with most of what you said, but just had to point this out since I just found out a couple days ago myself. They used to proc off flurries even after the multi-hit proc patch I'm pretty sure, but somewhere in between then and now they've stopped procing off every hit of a multi-hit. ID only procs off the first hit of Uncanny Response and Whirl of Blades. Test it out for yourself -- I didn't believe it at first either, hehe.</div>

[Zygwen]

Proccing off subsequent hits in a multi hit combat art was removed a while back. I don't remember which update but it was mentioned in the update notes. Proccing off multi hit combat arts was unfair to classes that didn't have multi hit combat arts. It gave advantages to Rangers/Swashbucklers vs Assasins/Brigands. <div></div>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote: <DIV><BR>I agree with most of what you said, but just had to point this out since I just found out a couple days ago myself. They used to proc off flurries even after the multi-hit proc patch I'm pretty sure, but somewhere in between then and now they've stopped procing off every hit of a multi-hit. ID only procs off the first hit of Uncanny Response and Whirl of Blades. Test it out for yourself -- I didn't believe it at first either, hehe. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Did they change it for ID too?</P> <P>They changed multi-hit attacks a while back (Jan or Feb this year) so that only the first strike had a chance to proc. This was true for everything <EM>except </EM>ID (and, I think, CoB), which continued to proc on every strike of a multi-hit CA. Did this recently get changed for ID also?</P> <P>I'll be disappointed if that's true, because the reason for removing multi-hits for other procs was to fit the normalisation rules <FONT size=1>(1 proc per CA, normalised proc chance based on CA cast time)</FONT>... but ID and CoB <U>aren't</U> normalised, they're a 100% proc chance for a short buff duration, so it seems odd to apply the multi-hit normalisation conditions to them. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> SageGaspar wrote: <div>I agree with most of what you said, but just had to point this out since I just found out a couple days ago myself. They used to proc off flurries even after the multi-hit proc patch I'm pretty sure, but somewhere in between then and now they've stopped procing off every hit of a multi-hit. ID only procs off the first hit of Uncanny Response and Whirl of Blades. Test it out for yourself -- I didn't believe it at first either, hehe. <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>Did they change it for ID too?</p> <p>They changed multi-hit attacks a while back (Jan or Feb this year) so that only the first strike had a chance to proc. This was true for everything <em>except </em>ID (and, I think, CoB), which continued to proc on every strike of a multi-hit CA. Did this recently get changed for ID also?</p> <p>I'll be disappointed if that's true, because the reason for removing multi-hits for other procs was to fit the normalisation rules <font size="1">(1 proc per CA, normalised proc chance based on CA cast time)</font>... but ID and CoB <u>aren't</u> normalised, they're a 100% proc chance for a short buff duration, so it seems odd to apply the multi-hit normalisation conditions to them. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">04-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:45 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yep, I know what you're saying, and just checked it today and ID was only going off the first hit of Whirl of Blades and Uncanny Response. I fully agree it should get changed back <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[dagoo7]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> overfloater wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote: <DIV><BR>I agree with most of what you said, but just had to point this out since I just found out a couple days ago myself. They used to proc off flurries even after the multi-hit proc patch I'm pretty sure, but somewhere in between then and now they've stopped procing off every hit of a multi-hit. ID only procs off the first hit of Uncanny Response and Whirl of Blades. Test it out for yourself -- I didn't believe it at first either, hehe. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Did they change it for ID too?</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep, I know what you're saying, and just checked it today and ID was only going off the first hit of Whirl of Blades and Uncanny Response. I fully agree it should get changed back <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ack.  Now I'm horribly confused and also concerned given tha ID is such a class defining skill for us.  So please help me understand:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. So ID is not currently proccing off of multi-hit CAs.  Got that but frustrating if true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Been wisdom line since before ID, so unclear:  Does ID currently proc from dual wield offhand hits?  I always assumed that to be the case ,,,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Are they going to take away ID procs off of Double Attacks as well other procs?  This would clearly not be fair and would make ID ridiculously more effective for dual wielders if #2 above is true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can someone please set me straight, so I know if I need to be worried and if so about what exactly.<BR></DIV>

[the flu]

<div><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Ack.  Now I'm horribly confused and also concerned given tha ID is such a class defining skill for us.  So please help me understand:</div> <div> </div> <div>1. So ID is not currently proccing off of multi-hit CAs.  Got that but frustrating if true.</div> <div> </div> <div>2. Been wisdom line since before ID, so unclear:  Does ID currently proc from dual wield offhand hits?  I always assumed that to be the case ,,,</div> <div> </div> <div>3. Are they going to take away ID procs off of Double Attacks as well other procs?  This would clearly not be fair and would make ID ridiculously more effective for dual wielders if #2 above is true.</div> <div> </div> <div>Can someone please set me straight, so I know if I need to be worried and if so about what exactly.</div><hr></blockquote>1. Partially true- it procs on the first attack of a multi hit, but not the subsequent ones.2. No. It did before the offhand proc was removed, but currently it is main hand only as is every other proc.3. ID is just another proc. No reason to supsect it will be treated any different, so it will be removed from the double attack.</div>

[Debunkt]

<P>I have a bad feeling that normal weapon procs will NOT work on DA post this change. Although it should be the only proc that really <STRONG>should</STRONG> proc off DA since DW can weapon proc off either hand. </P> <P>I know it won't be very noticible dps either way, but it seems that most of these minor offsets are always in the negative equating to less dps for us.</P> <P>ID has had the same description since it's basic mechanic was changed from damage shield to damage proc, many many months ago. Since then it has always state "With <STRONG>every</STRONG> melee hit..."  Fix the description and I wouldn't have a problem with the way it acts now.</P>

[overfloat]

<P>I would imagine the only reason offhand weapons still proc innate effects is to allow them to proc at all, while avoiding extra coding. The alternative to would be to code offhand weapon effects to proc on mainhand weapon strikes, and I'm sure that coding would be significantly more awkward than simply keeping the old offhand proc mechanic for weapon effects only.</P> <P>So I don't think weapon procs should be allowed to double up any more than other procs. If the argument against that is comparison to DW... that was part of the loss of giving up DW for DA in the first place, loss of offhand stats and procs.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'll be interested to see how this change is implemented, though...</P> <UL> <LI>Will it <EM>strictly</EM> affect only "double attacks"?</LI> <LI>Or will it be a more basic code change: Procs may not themselves trigger further procs?</LI></UL> <P>Double attacks are procs with a % proc chance, just like any other proc effects. So up until now they've been... procs that can proc additional procs (!).</P> <P>And this is exactly what certain other proc effects have been allowed to achieve up until now -- notably the interrupt proc on our offensive stance, rangers' Quick Shot, etc.</P> <P>Will this change to DA affect only DA, or will it be change that whole basic "procs proccing additional procs" mechanic and stop procs from interrupt, Quick Shot, etc? I can see that it might well be the latter -- again, to give the Devs better control over DPS, putting less DPS in the hands of % proc chances. It would kinda suck, because it would mean another small piece of our DPS chipped away, but personally I've always thought it kinda odd that some procs can trigger other procs.</P> <P> </P> <P>... did that make any sense? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit:  horrible spelling and grammar =P</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

[Debunkt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> overfloater wrote:<BR> <P>...</P> <P>I'll be interested to see how this change is implemented, though...</P> <UL> <LI>Will it <EM>strictly</EM> affect only "double attacks"?</LI> <LI>Or will it be a more basic code change: Procs may not themselves trigger further procs?</LI></UL> <P>Double attacks are procs with a % proc chance, just like any other proc effects. So up until now they've been... procs that can proc additional procs (!).</P> <P>And this is exactly what certain other proc effects have been allowed to achieve up until now -- notably the interrupt proc on our offensive stance, rangers' Quick Shot, etc.</P> <P>Will this change to DA affect only DA, or will it be change that whole basic "procs proccing additional procs" mechanic and stop procs from interrupt, Quick Shot, etc? I can see that it might well be the latter -- again, to give the Devs better control over DPS, putting less DPS in the hands of % proc chances. It would kinda suck, because it would mean another small piece of our DPS chipped away, but personally I've always thought it kinda odd that some procs can trigger other procs.</P> <P> </P> <P>... did that make any sense? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit:  horrible spelling and grammar =P</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by overfloater on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Makes sense to me! I think they are targetting DA specifically, sounds like it from the update notes but that doesn't always mean it's the full story.</P> <P>An example of the second scenario where procs cannot proc other procs:</P> <P>Let's say a scout is using a weapon w/damage proc and the bone clasped girdle. The scout hits a mob and triggers the weapon proc, the weapon proc is not allowed to trigger the bone clasped girdle (chance to proc of a successful spell). </P> <P>The proc percentages on the second scenario seem low enough already that it rarely happens. I'm hoping they just focus on DA.</P> <P> </P>

[Keyh]

<div><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><font color="#0000ff"></font><blockquote>Whats the Point of Mulitple hit attacks, if they Don't Proc ? SOE hacking has turned a Positive Class trait into a Negative.<font color="#0000ff">I'm sure Monks were part of this. Hundred Fists or whatever that hits 8 times, that's 8 chances to proc, don't you think that's a bit much? Our flurries still proc ID though.</font></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>I agree with most of what you said, but just had to point this out since I just found out a couple days ago myself. They used to proc off flurries even after the multi-hit proc patch I'm pretty sure, but somewhere in between then and now they've stopped procing off every hit of a multi-hit. ID only procs off the first hit of Uncanny Response and Whirl of Blades. Test it out for yourself -- I didn't believe it at first either, hehe.</div><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], you talk a little bit, people agree with what you say, but if you keep talking, they'll fine something to condemn you with <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.I was actually unaware of that, thought that it still procced all 2 or 3 times on that. Thanks for letting me know though <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Krontak]

<P>Just me or has anyone else dumped thier WIS line now?  I'm starting to think Strength for certain but I'm unsure as to what my secondary line will be. </P> <P> I'm seriously starting to consider the STA line for situational purposes.  I like the HP % increases and the STA buffs along with the aggro management abilities.  Would be great not having the need to look for a tank for group zones anymore.  I'm guessing a swashie at that point would be a pretty good tank, not that we aren't already without this Line  </P> <P>I do love the idea of having FD as the final INT skill but, I REALLY hate all those passive deaggro capabilities.  There are numerous times in small groups I need to grab aggro from NPCS to prevent a healer/caster death then pass it back to the tank through some evades.  The auto deaggro stuff would ruin my play style.</P> <P>The agi line has little apeal to me apart from Walk the Plank.  The final skill, Sailwind, reduction in recovery, isn't too bad a skill either but, it would be situational.  Recovery on my AOE's would rock if i need to take down large groups quick, apart from that, most of the attacks aren't really HUGE dps increase, I view them more for the utility of the debuffs which don't really need costant refreshes.  I'd probably end up running out of power to quickly in Raids and in groups well, they've got enough dps as it is.  The situational burst dps you could produce would be nice but not always necessarry.</P> <P> </P> <P>just a few thoughts</P>

[the flu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Krontak wrote:<div></div><p>The agi line has little apeal to me apart from Walk the Plank.  The final skill, Sailwind, reduction in recovery, isn't too bad a skill either but, it would be situational.  Recovery on my AOE's would rock if i need to take down large groups quick, apart from that, most of the attacks aren't really HUGE dps increase, I view them more for the utility of the debuffs which don't really need costant refreshes.  I'd probably end up running out of power to quickly in Raids and in groups well, they've got enough dps as it is.  The situational burst dps you could produce would be nice but not always necessarry.</p> <p>just a few thoughts</p><hr></blockquote>Just to make sure, because you seem to be confusing the two (or at least you are from the way I read your post)- sail wind affects recovery time, not reuse/refresh time. Reovery is the time before you can use another attack or auto attack after using a ca. Reuse is the time before you can use the same ca again.</div>

[SageGaspar]

I'm still keeping WIS. Full STR is a must for me. The only other skills I'd be even somewhat excited about are INT4 and INT5 or AGI2 and (a little bit) AGI4.Feign Death isn't enough for me to go full INT line and I haven't had enough aggro problems to warrant INT4 recently (especially once they remove procs from double-attack, though I guess that will lower our deaggro procs too.. hrrm, dunno on that one). AGI2 is useful in groups and soloing, but more often than not I actually find myself cursing the people that spin the mobs around, as it ruins a backstab I was planning half the time and just confuses the hell out of me in general. I don't think the Avast Ye proc is high enough to make it worthwhile, but maybe someone with that line could tell me. <div></div>

[Krontak]

In response to the fluke...Your right. I misread.  They should change it to half recast times in half if you ask me.  Either way, I still will probably choose another line.

[Geero]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krontak wrote:<BR> <P>Just me or has anyone else dumped thier WIS line now?  I'm starting to think Strength for certain but I'm unsure as to what my secondary line will be. </P> <P> I'm seriously starting to consider the STA line for situational purposes.  I like the HP % increases and the STA buffs along with the aggro management abilities.  Would be great not having the need to look for a tank for group zones anymore.  I'm guessing a swashie at that point would be a pretty good tank, not that we aren't already without this Line  </P> <P>I do love the idea of having FD as the final INT skill but, I REALLY hate all those passive deaggro capabilities.  There are numerous times in small groups I need to grab aggro from NPCS to prevent a healer/caster death then pass it back to the tank through some evades.  The auto deaggro stuff would ruin my play style.</P> <P>The agi line has little apeal to me apart from Walk the Plank.  The final skill, Sailwind, reduction in recovery, isn't too bad a skill either but, it would be situational.  Recovery on my AOE's would rock if i need to take down large groups quick, apart from that, most of the attacks aren't really HUGE dps increase, I view them more for the utility of the debuffs which don't really need costant refreshes.  I'd probably end up running out of power to quickly in Raids and in groups well, they've got enough dps as it is.  The situational burst dps you could produce would be nice but not always necessarry.</P> <P> </P> <P>just a few thoughts</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know I'm going to max out str and for time being I'm keeping Wis line.  Even with LU23 nerf, I don't think wis line would be any less then dw line.  If you say you want to go dw for stats, in reality, do you really need that extra stats during raid or in group?</DIV>

[Krontak]

<P>I'm a forum newb or just lazy to figure out how to include previous posts in my message heh....so in response to..</P> <P> </P> <P> know I'm going to max out str and for time being I'm keeping Wis line.  Even with LU23 nerf, I don't think wis line would be any less then dw line.  If you say you want to go dw for stats, in reality, do you really need that extra stats during raid or in group?</P> <P>.....</P> <P> </P> <P>I wasn't considering stat benefits of duel wield.  I am just weighing the benefits gained from the other lines vs. going down the wis line at this point.  To me, I'm thinking having the option to go tank with aoe taunts and a shield, increased HP and dps outweigh the benefits gained from going down the wis line now imho.  Wis line was an obvious choice before, not so obvious now.</P> <P>Too bad though, I enjoyed the look of the 1 hander.</P> <P>just a few more thoughts</P> <P> </P>

[SmCaudata]

I've looked over the trees again and there are only two ways I would personally spec.STR+WIS or STR+STA<font color="#ff0000">Stamina line</font>.  Ultimately less than duel wield damage.  You will hit the +DPS cap so early that miss out on damage.  Also, you need to be in defensive mode for some it.  If you have a regular group though, or find yourself tanking often enough, this line is well worth it.  Damage wise though, it is sub par.<font color="#ff0000">Wis line</font>.  I feel that with this new LU they will put in some better 1 handers.  Currently in the cobalt tier weapons are 37 and 49 (1.3 times the damage).  With DA this is 37x2 vs 49x1.8.  (Actually, it may be 39 and 47...even with that wis line is ahead slightly).  You also get increased parry and defenses.  Bascally a WIS specced swashy is carrying around a shield and duel wielding simultaneously.  That really puts the wis line as the jack of all trades line and fits my playstyle personally.  WIS line isn't as specialized as the other lines and that is why I initially thought it weak, but really, it has its niche.<div></div>If your playstyle puts you in a variety of positions on the fly going from damage to offtanking in a fight, then WIS line fits.  If you have a more consistent group where you have a specific role, the other lines may fit better.  Like I said though, the high tier weapons are loaded with stats and procs and really, the damage on the duel wielders is very close to that of the 1 handers.  I think that they will need to add some 1 handers simply to fit with the damage ratings up to the high levels.  It would also be nice for the WIS line to double main hand stats and allow weapon procs on DA to go since you can weapon proc an offhand weapon.  Rogues should unite and demand a big selection of 1hd daggers, rapiers, and swords with damage that compares to the duel wielders.  (This is from casual reading and what I have seen so far.  If there are adequate 1handers that I am not aware of then I withdraw that last statement)

[Malad]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmCaudata wrote:<BR>I've looked over the trees again and there are only two ways I would personally spec.<BR>STR+WIS or STR+STA<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Stamina line</FONT>.  Ultimately less than duel wield damage.  You will hit the +DPS cap so early that miss out on damage.  Also, you need to be in defensive mode for some it.  If you have a regular group though, or find yourself tanking often enough, this line is well worth it.  Damage wise though, it is sub par.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Wis line</FONT>.  I feel that with this new LU they will put in some better 1 handers.  Currently in the cobalt tier weapons are 37 and 49 (1.3 times the damage).  With DA this is 37x2 vs 49x1.8.  (Actually, it may be 39 and 47...even with that wis line is ahead slightly).  You also get increased parry and defenses.  Bascally a WIS specced swashy is carrying around a shield and duel wielding simultaneously.  That really puts the wis line as the jack of all trades line and fits my playstyle personally.  WIS line isn't as specialized as the other lines and that is why I initially thought it weak, but really, it has its niche.<BR> <BR>If your playstyle puts you in a variety of positions on the fly going from damage to offtanking in a fight, then WIS line fits.  If you have a more consistent group where you have a specific role, the other lines may fit better.  Like I said though, the high tier weapons are loaded with stats and procs and really, the damage on the duel wielders is very close to that of the 1 handers.  I think that they will need to add some 1 handers simply to fit with the damage ratings up to the high levels.  <BR><BR>It would also be nice for the WIS line to double main hand stats and allow weapon procs on DA to go since you can weapon proc an offhand weapon.  Rogues should unite and demand a big selection of 1hd daggers, rapiers, and swords with damage that compares to the duel wielders.  (This is from casual reading and what I have seen so far.  If there are adequate 1handers that I am not aware of then I withdraw that last statement)<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I do not believe thatany of the Stamina line now requires defensive stance.  I am currently stamina spec only 4 points into swear though and only thing that is required from top of my head is a round shield to use swear and to get the dps bonus.</P> <P>While str might be a better pairing with Stamina I am considering pairing Wisdom with it as Coule gives a boost to many skills that would improve ability to take a hit and can swap out a shield as needed depending if you need the extra mitigation and when you want to use swear.  From all I can tell the 2 end skills of Sta and Wis would complent each other very well and neither has a requirment to use other then have of course 4 in the skill above it.</P> <P>Will be a while till I get to this point but I think this is my current plan.</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maladen wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> SmCaudata wrote:I've looked over the trees again and there are only two ways I would personally spec.STR+WIS or STR+STA<font color="#ff0000">Stamina line</font>.  Ultimately less than duel wield damage.  You will hit the +DPS cap so early that miss out on damage.  Also, you need to be in defensive mode for some it.  If you have a regular group though, or find yourself tanking often enough, this line is well worth it.  Damage wise though, it is sub par.<font color="#ff0000">Wis line</font>.  I feel that with this new LU they will put in some better 1 handers.  Currently in the cobalt tier weapons are 37 and 49 (1.3 times the damage).  With DA this is 37x2 vs 49x1.8.  (Actually, it may be 39 and 47...even with that wis line is ahead slightly).  You also get increased parry and defenses.  Bascally a WIS specced swashy is carrying around a shield and duel wielding simultaneously.  That really puts the wis line as the jack of all trades line and fits my playstyle personally.  WIS line isn't as specialized as the other lines and that is why I initially thought it weak, but really, it has its niche. <div></div>If your playstyle puts you in a variety of positions on the fly going from damage to offtanking in a fight, then WIS line fits.  If you have a more consistent group where you have a specific role, the other lines may fit better.  Like I said though, the high tier weapons are loaded with stats and procs and really, the damage on the duel wielders is very close to that of the 1 handers.  I think that they will need to add some 1 handers simply to fit with the damage ratings up to the high levels.  It would also be nice for the WIS line to double main hand stats and allow weapon procs on DA to go since you can weapon proc an offhand weapon.  Rogues should unite and demand a big selection of 1hd daggers, rapiers, and swords with damage that compares to the duel wielders.  (This is from casual reading and what I have seen so far.  If there are adequate 1handers that I am not aware of then I withdraw that last statement) <hr> </blockquote> <p>I do not believe thatany of the Stamina line now requires defensive stance.  I am currently stamina spec only 4 points into swear though and only thing that is required from top of my head is a round shield to use swear and to get the dps bonus.</p> <p>While str might be a better pairing with Stamina I am considering pairing Wisdom with it as Coule gives a boost to many skills that would improve ability to take a hit and can swap out a shield as needed depending if you need the extra mitigation and when you want to use swear.  From all I can tell the 2 end skills of Sta and Wis would complent each other very well and neither has a requirment to use other then have of course 4 in the skill above it.</p> <p>Will be a while till I get to this point but I think this is my current plan.</p><hr></blockquote>I think the Hold the Line proc on STA5 requires defensive mode, and rightfully so, 'cause otherwise it'd be quite a drawback in a lot of situations.</div>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>I went for wis before the whole issue with double attacks was even discussed and it was generally seen as a weak line. I got no intention to respec because they are changing an AA skill, as no matter what, normal CAs and AAs will keep changing and jumping on the FotM isnt my thing or id never made a swashie back when I did. Life as a minor class will always keep goin up and down and one can either roll with it, or reroll from it as we will never be priority #1 when so many more popular classes have more serious issue (both overpowered and underpowered). </DIV> <DIV>Im saving my first and free respec and hope Ill never feel need to use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Scort]

Well, if the ranger is any good and doing his job, there is no way in hell a swasbuckler would out DPS them. We have 3 rangers and we parse a lot and they are always WAY up on the DPS list. There is no way a swashbuckler could come close, at least to our rangers. Heck, we have a monk that does more DPS than me and we both have killer gear. Monks just get a lot better weapons.I'm going full Int (already) and full wis. I LOVE my FD. It's helped a lot and helped save me a lto in repairs too. I have survived and been able to res a healer using it. The extra deagro has been great.With all the new changes and other classes doing more DPS (especially after the next LU), they really need to revisit ID and hurricane. Hurricane needs a major boost in proc%. It has been needing an adjustment since all the nerfs lately.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>05-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:46 PM</span>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:Well, if the ranger is any good and doing his job, there is no way in hell a swasbuckler would out DPS them. We have 3 rangers and we parse a lot and they are always WAY up on the DPS list. There is no way a swashbuckler could come close, at least to our rangers. Heck, we have a monk that does more DPS than me and we both have killer gear. Monks just get a lot better weapons.I'm going full Int (already) and full wis. I LOVE my FD. It's helped a lot and helped save me a lto in repairs too. I have survived and been able to res a healer using it. The extra deagro has been great.With all the new changes and other classes doing more DPS (especially after the next LU), they really need to revisit ID and hurricane. Hurricane needs a major boost in proc%. It has been needing an adjustment since all the nerfs lately.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">05-02-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Spending points in FD and then complaining you arent doing enough damage doesnt really mix if you ask me. Dont get me wrong, FD is fun and I understand why many people choose it, but when doing so you must be aware you have chosen to not maximize your DPS right?</div>

[Scort]

Umm, I also have the wis line so, I do have a right to complain when I have the FD <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just because I haven't dumped all my points into the wis line, still doesn't negate the fact that other classes don't have to dump all their points into a certain line to max DPS.Monks can have 2 lines and still have t2/t1 DPS.Our rangers were doing a LOT of DPS after the nerf and before AAs.Then add in the fact that our wis line is getting a huge nerf.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>05-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:02 PM</span>

[Geero]

<DIV>I think he was saying that since Int line doesn't have anything to improve your damage, you aren't doing full damage potential.</DIV> <DIV>If you go wis-str line, you would do close to or better dps to ranger.  </DIV>