Can you go poisonless?

[KnightMarshal]

I haven't played for around a year. I quit while they were trying to decide on the combat upgrades and meant to come back when they did them, but got sidetracked. Then I heard about a complete class revamp and here I am.The one thing that bugged me back then, was swashbucklers and poison. I just can't seem to get into any class that uses poisons. I never have been able to play one for any length of time. So I ask you, can a swashbuckler solo and still be a good DPS class and do everything else they need to do without useing poisons?<div></div>

[Verit]

Sure they can.But its a weird question. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />U can easly buy some poison.T7 poisons are very cool.Drain power/health, multiple debuffs, DD (ouf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), ...U can play without but my 2cent advice is: try to found some.They are really cool.<div></div>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Poisons are a significant source of your dps and taken as an assumption in developer's class balancing, so not to use them would be to seriously [Removed for Content] your character.  Personally, I can't understand what makes them so problematic for you.  Easy to acquire, one click to apply. and easy to track.  If price is the issue, it IMO is not really much of one.  Poisons are not that expensive and generally last quite awhile (at least player-made).  Even with AAs that tend to increase poison procs somewhat one poison application of 200 uses last a good long time.  They debuff and stun/stifle poisons are not necessary but nice to have in situational usage.</p><p>All things considered, they are dirt cheap for the benefit they provide.  While you will probably spend more on player made poisons, they are much effective, always available (never have had a problem finding my main dd/dot poisons on broker) and well worth the moderate increase in costs.   At the very least, you can buy basic poisons from alchemist npcs that are all over the place for chump change.</p><p>Basically, there is absolutely no reason not to use poisons and if you don't want to use poisons for some other reason (ethical, rp, or just plainn stubbornness) maybe swashie is not for you.  Swash would still be playable without poison, but it would make your soloing much more time consuming and difficult and significantly lessen the benefit you provide to a group.  Use them and love them.</p><p><span class="time_text">Edit: BTW, If you have somehow been put off the idea of poison by experience in other games.  Poison is much easier to apply and use in this game.  You do not have to apply it to each weapon directly and the basic damage poisons last a much longer time.  You simply "use" the poison and it essentially creates a proc buff that automatically works on all main hand attacks and ranged attacks, even if you switch weapons out.  This is nothing like the painful poison usage of rogue classes in DAoC and even requires less attention than rogue poison usage in WoW.</span></p><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:47 AM</span></p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>You could go without poisons, but it would be akin to a tank deciding just to use a 1H sword because he didn't like the look of shields, or a priest deciding not to use any of his buffs because they are too time consuming to cast. Or, heck, anyone just deciding not to upgrade any spells past App1.</p><p>You <em>could </em>go without but you won't be living up to your potential, plain and simple. And personally I don't see the point in playing any class unless you're going to play it to its full potential.</p><p><font size="1">Edit:</font></p><p><font size="1">PS - yes, a significant portion of our damage comes from poisons, plus a significant amount of utility too (though the utility is generally more useful soloing and raiding than grouping, so if you plan to spend most of your time grouping you only need concern yourself with one of the 3 poison types).</font></p><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 AM</span></p>

[Krakenap]

<div></div><p>Yes a swashbuckler is weaker without poison.</p><p>No, I don't think it's enough for you to care too much.</p><p>I would say that poison will increase your dps by around 25% (at most levels - lower depending on how well your gear is).  It's a nice increase and really beneficial while soloing.  If you spend most of your time in groups noone will notice that you aren't using it.</p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Krakenappa wrote:<div></div><p>If you spend most of your time in groups noone will notice that you aren't using it.</p><hr></blockquote><p>True, but some would argue whether that's really a valid point. Some people wouldn't notice if the illusionist in the group just /followed around and read a book, but that's not to say they should.</p><p>Ostensibly <font size="1"><em>(*cough*)</em></font> the classes are somewhat balanced, meaning that if you're not using 25% of your potential you're simply not pulling your weight in the group. If you're not going to use poisons because noone will notice, the guardian may as well not do anything but taunts, the illusionist do nothing but mez adds, the defilers do nothing but spam wards, etc...</p>

[the flu]

I'm not sure about gimping yourself. I went from level 50 to 60 without using poisons except in very rare circumstances Mostly tough nameds where the damage was neded and I knew the tank could hold me) and I was the second in my guild to 60. Mostly because I was breaking in a new tank.  Will you do less dps? Yes. Will it affect your ability to do your job of debuffing hte mob? No. Saved me allot of cash that way. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[dagoo7]

<blockquote>I just don't get the cash argument in the least.  When I turned 50 I bought a whole arseload of the best player crafted dd/dot poison in the 50-60 range.  It cost me less than I picked up from vendor trash during a few hours of play. At 55 (and full wisdom line) I'm still using that same poison.  What am I missing here?  Why give up so much damage, efficacy, and efficiency?</blockquote><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:06 AM</span></p>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KnightMarshal wrote:I haven't played for around a year. I quit while they were trying to decide on the combat upgrades and meant to come back when they did them, but got sidetracked. Then I heard about a complete class revamp and here I am.The one thing that bugged me back then, was swashbucklers and poison. I just can't seem to get into any class that uses poisons. I never have been able to play one for any length of time. So I ask you, can a swashbuckler solo and still be a good DPS class and do everything else they need to do without useing poisons?<div></div><hr></blockquote>not only are poisons a significant part of your dps, but they can be a good chunk of other people in your groups dps..  for example I can run a debuff vs cold, or heat damage, or divine or slash/crush...  adding to someone elses dps is a good way to help the group take stuff down faster.. though normally I just run a poison debuff...  but when I am in group with somone running that, I will switch debuff poisons just to give us more oomph.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[the flu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<blockquote>I just don't get the cash argument in the least.  When I turned 50 I bought a whole arseload of the best player crafted dd/dot poison in the 50-60 range.  It cost me less than I picked up from vendor trash during a few hours of play. At 55 (and full wisdom line) I'm still using that same poison.  What am I missing here?  Why give up so much damage, efficacy, and efficiency?</blockquote><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:06 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Mostly because I died alot- this was before poisins persisted after death mind you. The biggest contributer to why I shose not to was that i lost my regular tank, and posioned alot of tanks could not hold aggro against me.  Tanks need to be trained to do their job sometimes. After the first 2 or 3 levels not poisoning became a habit, and I still did everything I needed to do.</span></div>

[Zygwen]

Unless I'm in raid, killing yellow cons or named I usualy don't use poisons. I've been using poisons more often now that I have a steady supply of cheap poisons though.<div></div>

[Galn]

<div>Well there was this time back in the day (last tuesday) where I died right before I logged for the night. I logged back in not awake enough to make sure my buffs were up and I headed out to SS to herd some beetles and beat on some yellow mobs for fun. Got there, killed a couple mobs, and something didnt feel right.... figuring it was lag, which was also evident at the time, I took out a few more higher lvl yellows and then it hit me...:smileysurprised: Not only was my poison gone, but absolutely no buffs, not even my food. Only thing showing was the imbued armor and my Jboots.... :smileytongue:  So we can solo and preform fairly well without poison and even without our buffs, but mobs wont die quite as fast and things will be a little tougher. If I"m beating on trash greens or greys I dont worry about poison anyways, when I kill them in 3-4 hits the poison may not even proce most of the time. I save my poisons for the tougher things that I may fight.</div>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div></div><p>Anyway you look at it, your efficiency is going to take a significant hit by not using poisons.  Can you still survive a lot of battles solo and group anyways? Probably so.  Are you going to take longer to kill things, have noticeably more downtime to recover health and power, and die more?  Most definitely.  That's time that would be better spent killing more stuff, doing other things, gettin more exp and loot.  Solo the effects are obvious, in a group your forcing groupmates to pick up your slack and slow the group down.  As such, with the possible exception of an aggro problem in a group, no good reason to not use poison.</p><p>I promise not to post again and am sorry, but I really just don't get this debate at all.  It's like having to do a huge number of cumbersome and uninteresting calculations but refusing to take the calculator out of your pocket to get em done quicker.  Why?</p><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:22 AM</span></p>

[Illyakuran]

<div></div><p>I you do not want to deal with poisons roll a bruiser or monk instead of a swashie.</p><p>Personally I used rare hadcrafted poisons up till T7, but then I have a higher level alchemist toon.</p><p> </p>

[purplepalad]

<div></div> I havent really used poisons more than 2 or three times since I started my swash.  So far i am level  44.  Though I admit its more because I was just too lazy to look into them and buy them than any other reason at all.

[Geero]

<div>Can I go poisonles?</div><div> </div><div>I could but I won't.  I have close to 10 different poisons in my inventory at all times and if they are t7 poison, I have at least 10 of each.  I go through about 14000-20000 shots of poison per night and thats only for one kind of poison.  When I fight named mobs, I use 2 debuff, 1 stun, and 1 damage poisons so this number could go up much higher.</div><div> </div><div>If you aren't using poison as a swashy, you aren't using your class to fulliest.</div>

[Zygwen]

<div></div>Why waste poisons and other consumables when I'm already out damaging everyone else in my pick up group including all the casters?Why waste poisons and other consumables when you end up having to wait 10 minutes for respawns?If you want to be efficient, you gotta know when it's worth using poisons and when its not. Most of the time I don't think it's worth it unless they are dirt cheap.<span></span><span><em></em></span><div></div>

[deeks]

<div></div><p>I don't understand how any can justify going poisonless?  It makes things that much easier for you and kills mobs a hell of a lot quicker.  I'm not sure what the costs are on poisons on the different servers, but really  you are not breaking the bank to buy some..if you can't afford the "legendary ones" buy some of the handcrafted, it does make that much of a difference.  I mean even if you plan on soloing, it helps out so much.  I have two going all the time, an attack speed debuff and a damage one (the Vitality potion kicks some serious tail soloing)</p><p>People really have aggro problems using poisons?  I just don't get it.  I think out of all the classes swashy's put out serious damge, and avoid the most aggro..ever group with a wizzy, ranger?  You are gimping yourself and the group if you don't use poisons.</p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> As such, with the possible exception of an aggro problem in a group, no good reason to not use poison.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Even aggro isn't a good excuse any more (at least not at T7 and whichever other tiers use the new poison system) ... get hold of one of the hate reduction poisons (light blue icon) and your aggro troubles go away...</p><p>We did PPtR with way too few DPS a while back so, rather than use a damage and debuff poison, I went with power tap and deaggro. Not a single aggro issue, ended most fights with nearly 100% power (swapping the old prismatic in for top up, but still would've had no power issues even with the insanely long fights due to low raid DPS), and was able to spam all CAs constantly (which meant all debuffs were up constantly). End result: I significantly outdamaged the fellow swashbuckler 3 levels higher, all without a single aggro worry.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Zygwen wrote:<div></div><p>Why waste poisons and other consumables when I'm already out damaging everyone else in my pick up group including all the casters?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Comparative DPS isn't really all that relevant... it's not a competition, just a matter of efficiency.</p><blockquote><p></p><p></p><hr>Why waste poisons and other consumables when you end up having to wait 10 minutes for respawns?If you want to be efficient, you gotta know when it's worth using poisons and when its not.<hr></blockquote><p>In that case you have a point.... but then you have to ask yourself, is this hunting spot really suitable? If you're camping a quest mob or particular drop, sure, no point wasting money. But if you're trying to xp and are obviously way overachieving for the mobs you are hunting, there's probably somewhere better you can hunt. I always prefer a challenge to uneventful grind groups anyway, so maybe that's just me...</p><blockquote><p> </p><hr>Most of the time I don't think it's worth it unless they are dirt cheap.<hr></blockquote><p>Most of the time non-legendary poisons are dirt cheap. Well, not to me because I'm utterly broke -- like 12g to my name! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -- but considering people blow 5p on Master upgrades of 'eh' spells and can afford to deck themselves out in imbued xegonite 2 weeks into KoS, 2-4g for a non-legendary poison with 200 procs x 7 charges (or 30-40s for a new T7 vial) isn't going to break the bank.<span></span><span></p></span>

[dagoo7]

<div></div>Never personally had an aggro problem solely related to poisons ...  I was just struggling to think of some reason why people could possibly be justifying not using them.  As far as the cost issue goes, once again, unless my server is in some alternate universe with a bizarro economy, I still don't get it

[the flu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div>Never personally had an aggro problem solely related to poisons ...  I was just struggling to think of some reason why people could possibly be justifying not using them.  As far as the cost issue goes, once again, unless my server is in some alternate universe with a bizarro economy, I still don't get it<hr></blockquote>When I was having aggro problems, there were of course other issues. But have you ever tried telling a tank that not only do they not know how to play thier class after 50 levels, but that you- a (until that time) second rate dps class- could do so better? It's a good way to get kicked out of a group or cause hard feelings within your guild. The simple answer is to lower your dps somehow. And the easy way to do that is to stop using poisons. Then you start making suggestions as you play as to how they can hold aggro better in a non confrontational way. (Also, to be fair to the tank- this was before amends was known to break hate transfers in a bad way).Cost is dependant on alot of things. Until a week or two ago, poisons on kith were 6gold per vial of 100 charges. There was only one alch making them, and you either could get the handcrafted lifetap or the dot- no other choices. At 10-20 vials a good session, that adds up. Prices have dropped considerably since then (and selection has increased) but the same thing was true at the launch of DoF.Now, the original question was can you function without poisons. And the answer is yes. And depending on your level and server you may have to function with very basic poisons or without them at all. It's just the difference between buying a swiss army knife with 4 tools versus the one with 20. It's also hard to know what poisons to use at lower levels- they are still on the old "Bottled death of the storm", "Superguy's Toxic Mixture"  and "Lambykin's Liquid Lobotamy" naming system, with the old style poison choices.</span></div>

[Geero]

<div>I have faced same problem as fluke is having...</div><div> </div><div>It was in PUG and problem was this 70 serker can keep agro of one group but if we had adds, he couldn't pick up the add.</div><div>So, I didn't wanted to tell him how to play his char instead I wanted to show him how poor of tanking job he was doing.  I turned off hurricane, changed to defense stand and turned off hate transfer.  After this we had 3 adds in a roll and healer got agro every single time.  Guess who told him he sucks and learn how to tank...  His guildmate healer. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[KnightMarshal]

Thanks for the replies. Ut has nothing to do with cash or the mechanics of using poison. It is the idea of poison that I dislike. I have too much of a paladin in me I guess, but I never could fully play a class that has to use poisons. Even in DAoC, I went crit strike and such with the assassins and didn't use poisons.I never really understood why swashbucklers use poisons anyway? Alcohol is a swashbucklers poison and preferably made by Captain Morgan! Brigands and assasins use poisons, but I can't picture Errol Flynn using them. To me poisoning people = evil and swashbucklers are supposed to be good.<div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KnightMarshal wrote:Thanks for the replies. Ut has nothing to do with cash or the mechanics of using poison. It is the idea of poison that I dislike. I have too much of a paladin in me I guess, but I never could fully play a class that has to use poisons. Even in DAoC, I went crit strike and such with the assassins and didn't use poisons.I never really understood why swashbucklers use poisons anyway? Alcohol is a swashbucklers poison and preferably made by Captain Morgan! Brigands and assasins use poisons, but I can't picture Errol Flynn using them. To me poisoning people = evil and swashbucklers are supposed to be good.<div></div><hr></blockquote>is it a problem with adding a substance to your weapons or to the poison doing damage?  because depending on how you look at it, the debuff and stifle and other "poisons" can be considered not as bad..But, while you certainly can look at it as poisons=bad..  I look at it as I am stabbing them with a sharp object, trying to kill them.. poison isn't really a RP issue for me.</span></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p> As such, with the possible exception of an aggro problem in a group, no good reason to not use poison.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Even aggro isn't a good excuse any more (at least not at T7 and whichever other tiers use the new poison system) ... get hold of one of the hate reduction poisons (light blue icon) and your aggro troubles go away...</p><p>We did PPtR with way too few DPS a while back so, rather than use a damage and debuff poison, I went with power tap and deaggro. Not a single aggro issue, ended most fights with nearly 100% power (swapping the old prismatic in for top up, but still would've had no power issues even with the insanely long fights due to low raid DPS), and was able to spam all CAs constantly (which meant all debuffs were up constantly). End result: I significantly outdamaged the fellow swashbuckler 3 levels higher, all without a single aggro worry.</p><hr></blockquote>Hehe, aggro can still be an issue when you lay in with your heaviest DPS. We've been raiding with the same tank for weeks now, and using elude fairly regularly with the occasional big hate drop I've never had an aggro issue. Well, I hit level 70 and got Adept III of our multi-hit Mit debuff and Inspiration. Halfway through the first trash in Vyemm, I popped Inspiration like I used to pop Inspired Daring, and despite Adept III elude being hammered whenever it refreshed (including during Inspiration) and Adept III deaggro proc, the encounter swung around on me and the instant hate drop didn't happen in time for me to live. I officially became our guild's first T7 raiding death <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But yeah, I've noticed that I'm able to pull aggro again now that I'm 70 and have a couple of the upper tier adepts. We're not out of the woods completely, hehe. But when I finally convince those pallies to lay amends on me... oh man.</span></div>

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>Swashbucklers have a hate transfer, a 25% chance to basically cast evade with every melee attack, the evade line, and a line to drop a threat position on demand. A tank can literally do nothing and still have more hate then you. If I solely sit on auto-attack, I would actually be able to generate negative hate (if that were possible). Normalizing the proc, it still goes off 1 for every 8 hits, and I'm transferring 20% of any hate I generate to begin with and dropping about 1000 hate when it procs.</p><p>There is no reason not to at least use basic damage poisons. They aren't even that expensive, T7 only run about 20s each on my server.</p>

[the flu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><p>Swashbucklers have a hate transfer, a 25% chance to basically cast evade with every melee attack, the evade line, and a line to drop a threat position on demand. A tank can literally do nothing and still have more hate then you. If I solely sit on auto-attack, I would actually be able to generate negative hate (if that were possible). Normalizing the proc, it still goes off 1 for every 8 hits, and I'm transferring 20% of any hate I generate to begin with and dropping about 1000 hate when it procs.</p><p>There is no reason not to at least use basic damage poisons. They aren't even that expensive, T7 only run about 20s each on my server.</p><hr></blockquote>You've never grouped with a bad tank.</span></div>

[Mathe]

<div></div><div>I've grouped with plenty of bad tanks. However, just the threat position drop alone keeps hate off you and on the tank, unless the tank dies. I've stolen hate off Guardians with my hate transfer and an Assassin hate transfer on them. However, the poisons don't do such insane damage that dropping them is going to solve hate problems. If a tank can't hold hate off a Swashbuckler, the single best class at self hate removal (Brigand is a close second by virtue of no hate transfer), then they won't be able to hold hate off anything else.</div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:<span><div>Cost is dependant on alot of things. Until a week or two ago, poisons on kith were 6gold per vial of 100 charges. There was only one alch making them, and you either could get the handcrafted lifetap or the dot- no other choices. At 10-20 vials a good session, that adds up.<hr></div></blockquote><div>Ouch... see, that's a valid reason in my book, heh. T7 poisons on AB have been running about about 30-40s per vial (non-legendary) since very soon after KoS went live. Legendary is another matter, that's still clocking in at a bunch of gold, but that's to be expected. I wouldn't expect everyone to burn legendary poisons all the time.</div><blockquote><div> </div></span></blockquote><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>KnightMarshal wrote:Ut has nothing to do with cash or the mechanics of using poison. It is the idea of poison that I dislike.</p><p>...</p><p>Brigands and assasins use poisons, but I can't picture Errol Flynn using them. To me poisoning people = evil and swashbucklers are supposed to be good.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Honestly, if a crossover of RL/RP ethics and image are holding you up, the swashbuckler may not be for you. At least, you may be misinterpreting the intended image.</p><p>Despite popular opinion, the EQ2 swashbuckler is not modelled directly after the Errol Flynn, charming, brash, brave and honorable pirate image. If it was, we wouldn't have stealth, group stealth, stealth attacks or any of our range of rear attacks. None of those are particularly honorable. The EQ2 swashbuckler is a rogue at heart, who will stoop to stealing, sneaking, conning people and generally being rather conniving to get his way. It just happens that we use layers of charm, wit and suaveness to achieve some of those ends, as opposed to the brute force, backstabbing, straight-up bludgeoning and robbing people technique that brigands use. If you think swashbucklers (as they're written in EQ2) are the epitome of the honorable, dashing, steal-from-the-rich-and-give-to-the-poor type ... think again. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>At least, that's the way they're written by default. If you want to go against the grain and make a truly honorable swashbuckler, your character is an open book waiting for <em>you</em> to write the story. Truthfully, though, if you have issues with poisons do to reasons of "honour", you might also want to rethink using stealth attacks (ambushes, basically) and backstabs.</p><p>As for poisoning people = evil  ... well, killing people = evil, if we're going to look at it that way. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Poisons aren't innately evil ... at least, no more so than lopping someone's head off with a [Removed for Content] sword. If you can justify killing someone (particularly in open battle, which all EQ2 combat is), then the end justifies the means. It works for paladins, swashbucklers just use a different route to achieve the same goal. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Then again, paladins have a very screwed up sense of the word "honour"... hehe</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><p>Swashbucklers have a hate transfer, a 25% chance to basically cast evade with every melee attack, the evade line, and a line to drop a threat position on demand. A tank can literally do nothing and still have more hate then you.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Confirmed that last night, unintentionally. A (67) brigand friend and I were running a (52) ranger friend down to Naggy for his prismatic. The brigand was nominated tank for anything that saw through the ranger's invis, due to his higher level. The brigand had to go afk a couple of times, but I left up my hate transfer, Avoid Censure, and the hate reduction poison I was playing with.</p><p>Whenever something saw the ranger, I would proceed to smack it incredibly hard (everything was grey, no risk) -- just spamming CAs till things were dead, to speed our progress. I was also using a decent T6 DoT poison, plus a T7 mitigation debuff poison. That's a fair amount of aggro generation. But without fail, a few seconds into every fight the mob would switch to the brigand .... who was afk on autofollow, with no CAs queued, no autoattack, nothing. Just standing there getting aggro. He ended up tanking simply by virtue of my channeling 20%+ hate to him, then dropping my own aggro below his due to Avoid Censure and poison procs (I wasn't using on-demand evades).     <font size="1">(It also confirms the answer to a question many people have, which is whether hate <em>reduction</em> is also channeled via our hate transfer: No, it isn't, positive hate gain only.)     </font>Even the 52 ranger wasn't pulling aggro -- apparently 20%+ of my hate generation was greater than 100% of his! Occasionally aggro would pop back to me for a moment, until the next AC or poison proc, but it was always temporary and a single Elude would drop it back on the brigand.</p><p>It's possible that my DPS (being only 62) is still low enough that a T7 deaggro poison "overcompensates" for it, and that I'll have more trouble as I level up. But still, it goes to show just how good our hate reduction is when you supplement it with the poison.</p>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>It's possible that my DPS (being only 62) is still low enough that a T7 deaggro poison "overcompensates" for it, and that I'll have more trouble as I level up. But still, it goes to show just how good our hate reduction is when you supplement it with the poison.</p><hr></blockquote>Definitely, though raiding skews the picture a bit. Group aggro is honestly not something I worry about except on two or three mobs in the game, and they're all in the Halls of Fate. On a raid, if you're not in the MT group, and especially if there's no one to dump aggro to (a lot of times we just go with what we have, usually lump the DPS together with a dirge, zerker or brawler, the latter two of which certainly don't want my hate), you can have some issues. Also, when a pally uses amends on someone else in the party (typically against my better judgment <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), I've picked up aggro a couple times, even when I was transferring hate on someone else.I do get a little smile when I start pulling mobs for the tank, especially when it's not a pally, and they just turn directly on them. Confuses the hell out of some of 'em.</span></div>

[KnightMarshal]

Well, I started a High Elf swashbuckler and have gotten up to 7th right now. I am trying to see if I have done every quest on the island before leaving. I have only done about 13 so far, and I think there are at least two named spawns that I haven't killed, the giant squid thing and an undead as far as I can tell.Did they take out trapped chests and did they ever put locks on them? I seem to remember disarming chests a year ago and them talking about locks.I am still trying to remember the combat mechanics I used with my scout back then. I do remember stunning and running througha mob for a back attack, but I haven't really needed to do that so far. Things have changed a bunch so far.I might be able to get into using some of the poisons with my High Elf, as most of the things I will be fighting are evil, unclean or just plainly one of the many lesser races.<div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KnightMarshal wrote:Did they take out trapped chests and did they ever put locks on them? I seem to remember disarming chests a year ago and them talking about locks.I am still trying to remember the combat mechanics I used with my scout back then. I do remember stunning and running througha mob for a back attack, but I haven't really needed to do that so far. Things have changed a bunch so far.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Chests come in a couple different sizes. There's the very tiny ones, the "wooden" ones, the box-shaped legendary ones, and the formidable-looking metal ones. All of them have the potential to be trapped except the very tiny ones. You can still disarm any of the chests by right clicking on them and selecting disarm, even the ones that can't be trapped. You can get skill-ups that way.As a Swash you'll also make a lot of use of stunning and running behind the mob. You'll have at least three and potentially up to four backstabs useable on any given mob.</span></div>

[Gusta]

<div>Do youR job people YOUR A DPS CLASS</div><div> </div><div>USE POISONS, DO HOT DPS! DONT BE A SLACKER!:robotmad:</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Gusta wrote:<div>Do youR job people YOUR A DPS CLASS</div><div> </div><div>USE POISONS, DO HOT DPS! DONT BE A SLACKER!:robotmad:</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Meh, as long as you know what you're missing and you make a conscious character/RP decision, I'm okay with it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now, the swash I met tonight who had removed Inspired Daring from his hotkeys because he thought it was worthless might be a different story ;p</span></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<span><div>Now, the swash I met tonight who had removed Inspired Daring from his hotkeys because he thought it was worthless might be a different story ;p</span><hr></div></blockquote>:smileyindifferent:

[cyclonus11]

I typically don't use them since I solo most of the time, and I kill the mobs fairly quickly anyway (blues). If I group or raid, or if I happen to be soloing yellows (which isn't very often), I have my poisons ready.Using them when you don't really need them seems like a waste.I can also see how you might not want to use poisons from an RP perspective. Didn't some of the rogue trainers in EQ1 good-guy cities not train in poison? I remember some didn't teach pick-pocket, but I'm not 100% sure on the poison part...<div></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>cyclonus11 wrote:I can also see how you might not want to use poisons from an RP perspective. Didn't some of the rogue trainers in EQ1 good-guy cities not train in poison? I remember some didn't teach pick-pocket, but I'm not 100% sure on the poison part...<hr></blockquote><p>Wow... been a while but I think you're right. I seem to remember having to trek to Firiona Vie to train my first point in poison making (it was either there or somewhere even less accessible, I forget where). I always thought of that as more of a "Go see these people, they're the experts" rather than "Eww, poisons, go see these outcasts for yucky stuff like that". <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The poison trainer was a wood elf, anyway. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The good races may not have had quite the sewer-crawling rogue guilds of the human cities (god I <strong>hated</strong> the FP underground, and the Qeynos sewers even more *shudder*), but they certainly had some underhand tactics. The "original" wood elf newbie quests culminated in a straight up, lie-in-wait, bring-me-his-head assassination in HHK <font size="1">(which promptly fardled your faction with CoUH, which I had to spend hours rebuilding for GM Poison Vial, etc... ugh)</font>. And their platform in Kelethin was conspicuously situated the farthest from the bank, hehe. Darn I miss EQ1... just can't summon the willpower log back in and try to catch up x levels, 400 flags and keys and zone access quests and 700 hours of 72-man raiding.</p><p> </p><p>...</p><p> </p><p>Going waaaay offtopic, sorry. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Galn]

<div><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<div><span>As a Swash you'll also make a lot of use of stunning and running behind the mob. You'll have at least three and potentially up to four backstabs useable on any given mob.</span></div><hr></blockquote>This gave me a little chuckle when I read it... I havent done that in ages when soloing yellow con solo mobs or lower. The mob dies too fast to need it. If you do the stealth/back/flank/cheapshot/frontal sequence you get off all 3 back/flank attacks at the beginning of the fight and the mob is usually dead, or if it isnt a recycled frontal attack will usually do him in. Heroics are a different story, if they dont die in the first round I"ll mez them and then repeat the above, but rarely do I have cheap shot keep the heroics stunned long enough to run past/jump over and backstab again. We have so many choices that I cant cover them all here, not just the old scout stun/runpast/backstab trick.</div><div> </div><div>Stupid question though, at lvl 44 I only have a sneak (all aspect), a back only, a back/flank and a front/flank, what are the 3rd and 4th back attacks?</div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><div></div><div>The 3rd is Lung Puncture, one of the Ancient Teachings arts from DoF.</div><div> </div><div>The 4th... I'm guessing he's referring to Traumatic Swipe (STR.5 AA)</div><div> </div><div>Plus there's also the Pirate Stab proc (AGI.4) that only procs from behind.</div><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:22 PM</span></p>

[Galn]

<div><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>The 3rd is Lung Puncture, one of the Ancient Teachings arts from DoF.</div><div> </div><div>The 4th... I'm guessing he's referring to Traumatic Swipe (STR.5 AA)</div><div> </div><div>Plus there's also the Pirate Stab proc (AGI.4) that only procs from behind.</div><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:22 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ah... havent gotten too far in DoF yet and have only 5 AA points total... Might explain why I havent seen those.</div>

[SageGaspar]

Fourth one I was talking about was actually Sinister Strike, I mentioned it was situational <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I usually just pull mobs with a throwing attack, running around behind them and ambushing them usually wastes time for me, hehe.<div></div>

[overfloat]

Doh! Forgot that one... So that's 1 front positional, up to 5 rear positionals plus a rear positional proc (if you include AAs). So the answer to the original question is: yes, positional requirements play a fair part for swashbucklers. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Certainly a lot more so than any non-scout classes, probably about on a par with predators.

[Gusta]

<DIV>USE POISON!  THANKS</DIV>

[Mathe]

<DIV>Most positional moves are flank/(front or rear), except for the one rear positional Backstab. You can hit every other positional from the flank quadrant of the mob. You also can't be riposted from that quadrant and I don't think I've seen any directional AoE that also hit the flank if it didn't already hit the rear.</DIV>

[tawek]

<DIV>I admire those who let the power of their characters suffer for roleplaying reasons, but refusing all poisons is going to be a serious disadvantage in certain situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can probably manage soloing, and if you work hard at maximising your use of skills, a good swashie with no poisons is probably a lot better than an average swashie without.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But in certain fights it'll be really noticeable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The power tap poisons are incredible.  If you are in a fast-pulling exp group and the other scouts use power tap, but you don't, you're going to be constantly out of power, and this may annoy your group-mates.  In a raid without a power regen class in group, it'll be even more serious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps you could justify a compromise.  Refuse to use DoT poisons, but use debuff poisons and instant damage poisons.  You could argue they are a form of magic, akin to the cold damage from your ranged skill, and so ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alternatively, if you want a scout with no poison .. try a troubadour.   ... Dirges might be a problem, as their spells do disease damage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Luk]

<P>I guess all that I want to say is......</P> <P>If you have a moral issue with poisons, and won't use them, don't play a rogue or a predator, a good portion of our DPS comes from damage poisons, as well as debuffing and alot more variety in tier 7, also suggest staying away from Warlock, Shadowknight and Defiler as these use poison and/or desease as part of their spell lines, this leaves you with 17 other classes to pick from, don't limit yourself to a Swashy thats not going to use poisons.</P>

[Mathe]

If it's an RP thing, Troubadour can have pretty much the same logical basic personality as a Swashbuckler, and they don't use poisons or disease damage. However, is three little icons being up in your maintained spells window really devastating to an RP personality? Sure you will be noticably less effective, but those three little icons (well at least one anyways) won't be there.

[Galn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> overfloater wrote:<BR> Certainly a lot more so than any non-scout classes, probably about on a par with predators.<FONT color=#ff6600><BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I have an assassin that I'm slowly shelving because I cant stand the fact that I MUST be behind, in stealth or both to do decent dps. Frontal attacks for my Assassin at lvl 26 are all small DoT's and dont quite cut it if the mob is fairly tough. Just listening to Rangers they have great bow attacks but suck in the trenches. I've never needed any more rear attacks than the 3 I have now. I can solo yellow mobs with only auto attack so the CA's just speed up the process anyways. </DIV>

[Gusta]

<DIV> :smileyindifferent:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gusta on <span class=date_text>04-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 PM</span>