Swashbuckler vs. Monk: Pros vs. Cons

[LordTa]

Hello all...in your opinion I am wondering what you consider the pros/strengths and cons/weaknesses when compared to each other.  I am getting my friend into the game and he wants to go monk but I am trying to get him to go swashy instead.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks!<div></div>

[Serendia]

does he prefer being cool or wearing pajamas?In all honesty, though, I see swashbucklers as a sort of "underdog" type class. We look innocent enough, but when things get messy, we can unleash great DPS, add great utility to help killing a mob easier, help the tank maintain aggro in a sticky situation, or simply take the reigns if all hell breaks loose.A monk's role, in my opinion, is far more straight forward and.... well, boring <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though they do have fun animations

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>LordTank wrote:Hello all...in your opinion I am wondering what you consider the pros/strengths and cons/weaknesses when compared to each other.  I am getting my friend into the game and he wants to go monk but I am trying to get him to go swashy instead.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Well the biggest difference to me is one is the stabby stabby dps and utility that stands behind the mob and helps kill it and the other is the tank that stands in front of the mob so the dps can help kill it.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I guess it comes down to does your friend understand the basic role differences between a dps class and a tank class?</span></div>

[LordTa]

That is the thing.  He has been reading the boards and thinks he can do both tanking and dps with a monk and somewhat reach near or even greater numbers than a swashy...<div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>LordTank wrote:That is the thing.  He has been reading the boards and thinks he can do both tanking and dps with a monk and somewhat reach near or even greater numbers than a swashy...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well properly geared he can do some dps..  but I would hazard to say it will be harder to out dps a swashy than it would be to out tank a swash. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   admittedly my monk experience ends at level 33, but it was clear to me that while I could tank decently, I sure wasn't the dps king compared to my swashy..  if he wants to swtich/hit dps and tanking, maybe he should check into bruiser too.. last I heard they were a touch better at dpsing than monks were.</span></div>

[Landaros]

In my opinion he should go monk.1. more swashy drops for us2. swashy is 2nd class dps as well as a monk, but he wears fancy clothes and we wear ugly chain/ leather3. monk weapons are made out of wood - so basically on sale 24/7<div></div>

[Badfeeling]

<div></div><p>I disagree....I think go with the Swashbuckler. I have recently rolled a Monk and I don't find him as much fun or as effective as my Swashbuckler was at that lvl.</p><p>Granted it is early days and my Monk is still in Oakmyst Forest but my Swashbuckler was taking out yellows easily in this zone but my poor old Monk is struggling...lol</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Geero]

<div></div><p>You should make brigand, they are cooler. </p><p>They get pet and hamburglar hat!!!</p>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div>Started playing a monk alt recently after spending basically all my time on swashie main.  And while it may be true that monk's have decent dps, it by no way compares with swashie dps.  My swashbuckler can take stuff down twice as fast and in the case of grouped mobs probably more like 3 or 4 times (at least post hurricane).  Monks may be able to do more dps with AA abilties my monk isn't even close to having yet, but the same can be said for us.</div><div> </div><div>That being said the monk is also a helluva lot more sturdy.  Can take way more hits and been in fights that my swashie woulda been dead if they lasted that long.  However, they wouldn't have lasted that long due to dps.</div><div> </div><div>The big difference I notice is that the monk is much more successful taking on heroics that con green or blue.  This is most definitely due to the avoidance mechanics as they relate to mob level.  Lower level heroics just hit less and monk has more hp.  My swashie can take a lower level heroic down quickly but they hit more and they hit hard so its always very close and very dangerous.  Monk has a much easier time of it.</div><div> </div><div>All things considered, IMO the swashie is much more fun.  Also probably more soloable in the sense of just being able to complete quests, get places, and kill things to level quicker than most other classes.  Just not able to take down heroics and nameds solo as well as some other classes.</div>

[Zodi]

<p>I agree with Paleaf but i hav eto add role BRUISER for DPS and tanking</p>

[SageGaspar]

In my opinion one of the big differences is on even or better-con mobs. A monk gets a middle-stance, which means they can raise both their attack and defense simultaneously. It's very nice for tanking EXP groups, and they get a gain in both defense and attack effectiveness. When my swashy tries to tank mobs that aren't light blue or green, I typically use no stance at all.Monks also get a lot more versatile tanking techniques. When they're about to die they can feign, which buys the healer time to get them on their feet faster than a revive, and when they get back up they have all their aggro right back. They get tsunami, and a couple other short-term mitigation buffs.

[Rrawl]

<div></div><p>Invader Invader! *grinning Monk*</p><p>Having read both this post and your friend's over in the Monk forums... I'd say both choices would fit, he's just got to pick one of the two to be more focused on.</p><p>Swashies, especially if they choose AA's for it can tank fairly well, and do good dps.</p><p>Monks can dps fairly well (especially if they choose AA's for it), and are good tanks.</p><p>Monk > tank Swashie > dps. Both able to make a reasonable contribution in both roles.</p><p>If he still can't decide, he should go swashy and leave the tanking to us. There's already too many tanks in the world.</p>

[Geero]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rrawl wrote:<div></div><p>There's already too many tanks in the world.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, thats true.</p><p>But tell me...  How many are real tanks?  There are too many wanna bes.</p><p>OP could be the next god of all tanks but you might have ruined that chance.  Shame on you. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Galn]

<div></div><p>Dagoo pretty much hit it with his post... Couple things to add, Monks have a minor heal, sneak and sweet animations, the Swashy has evac, tracking, Mez, and can even tank with the proper equipment and defensive stance. If I can get a Mitigation 300 points higher and avoidance 20% higher than a Berserker in handcrafted plate and I'm in rare leather I think Swashies can tank. Even in Offensive stance my Mitigation and Avoidance were still better than his. Now if I put on Ebon Chain I'd really be higher on Mitigation, but Avoidance would be closer.</p>

[Mathe]

<div></div><div></div><p>Monk = Tank</p><p>Swashbuckler = Damage Dealer</p><p>Don't factor in that both can do the other role adequately if you are on the fence between the two. If you want to mainly Tank, be a Monk. If you mainly want to be a Damage Dealer, pick Swashbuckler.</p><p>Also are you comparing to a Berserker with a Shield or not? I'm guessing no, I have capped Parry and Defense and a Master I defensive stance and about 350 AGI, I can't break 50% avoidance. I've seen plenty of Berserkers and Guardians at around 60% give or take though.</p><p>Message Edited by Matheau on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:39 AM</span></p>

[Verit]

<hr width="100%" size="2">Monk = Tank<p>Swashbuckler = Damage Dealer</p><hr width="100%" size="2"><div></div><div></div>Wrong.At high lvl, bruiser and rogue are same dps, even better u can often see them just after summoners (best dps in game atm).Ask for parse in raid or group. U could see.The prob bruisers are tanks. And not the less.In DoF, a guild brawler was soloting a good amount of the hardest named.With a swash this is not possible.If u want to play a role, rogue are awesome.If u want to find an insance class, play a crusader or, even better, a bruiser.Same DPS (at high lvl, i cant say its the same at lower lvls), awesome tank, some heal, good utility.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Verityn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Verityn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:56 AM</span></p>

[dagoo7]

<div>... deleted ...</div><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:32 AM</span></p>

[Galn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Also are you comparing to a Berserker with a Shield or not? I'm guessing no, I have capped Parry and Defense and a Master I defensive stance and about 350 AGI, I can't break 50% avoidance. I've seen plenty of Berserkers and Guardians at around 60% give or take though.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I didnt notice if the zerker had a shield or not, I didn't have one when I compared. Just the fact that even in offensive stance my Mit/Avoid were at least comparable. When I went into defensive stance my defense became a lot better, and if "I" wore a shield it would have been even better yet. I would hope a Berserker in full Ebon Plate in defensive stance would have a better defense. I wa just pointing out that we "CAN" get into the ballpark when it comes to Mitigation and avoidance, even in leather armor  :smileysurprised: I'd hate to see the difference if i was in a full set of ebon chain... :smileytongue:</p><p>Edit - There is a lot of crossover between Monk and Swashbuckler in the tank/DPS roles. Monks do decent DPS, and Swashy's can tank, I've done it before and will do more once I go up the STA AA line.</p><p>Message Edited by Galn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:18 AM</span></p>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Verityn wrote:<hr width="100%" size="2">Monk = Tank<p>Swashbuckler = Damage Dealer</p><hr width="100%" size="2"><div></div><div></div>Wrong.At high lvl, bruiser and rogue are same dps, even better u can often see them just after summoners (best dps in game atm).Ask for parse in raid or group. U could see.<hr></blockquote>Depends. First, Swashes have much better aggro control than Bruisers. Secondly, Swashes have much better power control than Bruisers. If there's a long fight and people's power is getting low, Swashes can flip over to power poison for fifteen seconds and they're back at 100%.</span></div>

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>If a Bruiser is parsing the same damage as a Swashbuckler, they are still doing less damage. Swashbuckler does a lot of indirect damage that will not be attributed to them on a parser.</p><p>Swashbucklers can significantly debuff defense and severely debuff parry and debuff AGI, meaning less attacks from every melee are going to be avoided. All those attacks that landed due to those debuffs landed because of the Swashbuckler, not the class that actually through them.</p><p>Swashbucklers have major physical and magic debuffs, improving melee damage and Magic spell damage. Damage that would not have occured has the Swashbuckler not been present. This really adds up in raids, but extra damage gets parsed to the person throwing the blow, though it would have been less with out the Swashbucklers.</p><p>Swashbucklers also can debuff mob offensive skills and DPS, which decreases tank damage noticably.</p><p>Swashbucklers do all this while also doing damage, too.</p><p>Swashbucklers and Brigands have far more to them than just how much damage they do. If that is the sole thing you are interested in, role a Wizard, Warlock, Ranger, or Assassin. However, all but Warlocks would gain a significant boost to damage from Swashbuckler debuffs.</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>A high level Bruiser will parse the same as a Brigand or Swashbuckler until the Swashbuckler ups and decides to max out his WIS line. Then the Swashbuckler just starts to smack anything upside the head that looks at him sideways.</p><p>As mentioned above I'm not aware of the Bruiser that can debuff a mob by 3520 across all mitigations in a single attack... while maintaining an ongoing 1600 physical mit debuff and ongoing 1536 debuff across all magic resists.... the defence, parry, attk speed, str, agl debuffs are all icing on the cake.</p><p><a href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/ScoutDebuffs.gif" target="_blank">http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/ScoutDebuffs.gif</a></p><p>Is what Rogues do besides damage.</p><p>The bruisers debuff and group buff is nice and all, but it's not really in the same bracket.</p><p>Swashbucklers get to also whack a chunk outa wis/int by 65/144 and both casting and attack skills by -56</p><p>Give a guild the choice of grabbing  a fistful of Brigands and Swashbucklers as a job lot and be without Monks and Bruisers or visa versa, and I'm confident what choice will be made.</p><p>If you're fixated with raw damage go with one of the T1 classes.... don't go with a pet class and come back here crying a month or so down the line.</p><p>If you want to tank for groups and still feel useful and productive on raids as one of the many tanks that aint going to be tanking tonight, and fancy solid soloing, go Brawler.... Brawlers stack very well compared to some tanks. It's always good having another Brawler along whether in group or raid. Do you need a second Guardian? They got that whole cool whirling piece of wood thing going on too.</p>

[Wildfury77]

<div></div>My instance experiences with a parser always puts my DPS way higher than conjurers and even wizards.....last night we killed yaith shadowhowler -----> 65 wizard got owned for DPS by my 60 swashie (as did all the others in the raid and i was lowest lvl)Yaith is 55^^^ epic x2. Also the wizard got agro and had 3 healers keeping  him up......i got no agro ever.I have no experience with parsers in  x4 raids, and am sure a lot has to do with my CA upgrades and poisons.....Go swashie... we can own at DPS and can tank well too. IF u want agro u can get it and if u don't want it u can give it away.Some guy above talked about swashies not being able to solo nameds in DoF as well as bruiser.....<u><b><font color="#ff0000">trust me it can be done <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></b></u><div></div><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:28 PM</span></p>