Disastrous XP group

[Wildfury77]

<div></div><div></div>Wanted to Ding 60 - so headed to giants in PoF with xp group (got 60 solo later on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )I was highest lvl in the group @ 59, also had a 56 bruiser, 57 zerker*I offered to tank as I had the best balance of avoidance/mitigation (5% lower avoidance than the bruiser but 1000 more mitigation, 15% higher avoidance than the zerker and only 50 less mitigation)--------> I got dogs abuse for the very suggestion, mainly from the bruiser, "<font color="#ff0000"><i><b>lol, you are scout!</b></i></font>" , something about my ego and told to shut up!. Got told tanking is "more than just avoidance/mitigation" --->like i didn't know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />He got even more angry when the group worked out my direct and AoE taunts were higher than his (but not the zerkers).He seemed ignorant to the effect on hate holding that turning off hate transfer, evade proc and never using the evade line CA would have.The guy seemed so mad at me that he asked the other group members in tells wether "We should let that arrogant swashie die" ---->which they tried, the healer and main tank (zerker) died the 2 heroic giants started beating on me, i mezzed one, hit inspired daring and attack buffs, pointed the agro at the bruiser with shadowslip - killed both MOBs but unfortunately failed in quite killing the bruiser (he had 5 hitpoints left).Not sure what was his problem, kept insulting me for 15 mins after group ended!! That he would easily beat me in a fight etc, i offered to mentor down and duel him ----->and he had to go AFK urgently<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#ffff00"><i><b>I</b></i></font><font color="#ffff00"><i><b><font color="#ffff00">'ve </font>said it before a fabled/legendary equipped tanking line swashie who has 2-3 levels on a "standard tank" WILL stay a alive and be a better tank. Putting it the other way a fabled equipped bruiser with master 1 skills and 2-3 lvls on a swashie would probably out DPS a standard swashie!!</b></i></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:15 AM</span></p>

[Severed Ha]

<div></div><p>Lol.  Well to be honest.. Some people will be set in there ways no matter what you say or do.</p><p>Hell theres still people out there that refuse to let Bruiser/Monk's tank for a group.... Now get those same people hearing a Swash.. A Scout..not a fighter tank.. Lol.  The mind will boogle them. Lol.</p>

[Lyzarius]

<div></div>Just let the dubious doubters know that last night we completed all of HoF in record time with 2 Swashys, Conjurer, Wizard and Templar.  Cleared the zone in very good time with Swash tanking all the way.  So, whilst we are no guardians -- we are certainly capable tanks in anything but epic settings.

[Severed Ha]

<div>I would agree that we are completly capable to tank when needed to.  Although I much prefer to just be DPS.. Lol.  Although me and a Paladin(aka.. healer.. hehe) where out in Bonemire kiling the Catatoxin stain mobs just with us 2.  I was tanking just simply because well.. I had to go all out on the mob almost just to make sure the Paladin didnt die.. Lol.  I just had better Avoidance so didnt get hit as much.  Paladin really didnt mind me tanking either.  She actually enjoyed it since she didnt have to.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Fouri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:<div></div><div></div>He got even more angry when the group worked out my direct and AoE taunts were higher than his (but not the zerkers).<hr></blockquote>I thought we only had a single-target taunt increaser, which AoE taunt am I missing?

[Luk]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fourier wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:<div></div><div></div>He got even more angry when the group worked out my direct and AoE taunts were higher than his (but not the zerkers).<hr></blockquote>I thought we only had a single-target taunt increaser, which AoE taunt am I missing?<hr></blockquote>Swear, its from the STA AA line

[tawek]

<div>Wildfury</div><div> </div><div>I'm reluctant to comment.   You were there; I wasn't.</div><div> </div><div>I've valued your posts: you're clearly someone whose worked hard on your skills and equipment to become a very viable tank, and you know your stuff, but ...</div><div> </div><div>It sounds to me that you won the argument, but lost the people.</div><div> </div><div>I'd suggest if folk don't want to let you tank and you want to, just leave.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>From what I am reading and seeing, the swashbuckler class is moving into an undesirable place.  Other classes are starting to comment about our powerful debuffs and impressive dps.  If others also complain that we've been given uber-tanking abilities, it'll just make things worse.</div><div> </div><div>I'll adjust and survive if the nerf-bat falls, but I know it'd hurt.</div><div> </div><div>It may be out of character for a swashbucker, but now may be more a time for a diplomatic retreat, than a pyrrhic victory.</div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><p>Remember boys and girls: if you ever discover something good about your class, if you are ever able to pull something off by virtue of skill, if you ever learn to play your class to the absolute maximum of its capacity in all areas... KEEP IT QUIET!!</p><p>Rule#1 of forum posting: all posts about your class must be negative.</p><p> </p><p><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>I say hell, go with it. If you can pull something off, tell us. Personally I'm sick of cookie cutter players and cookie cutter groups, people failing (or refusing) to think outside the box. I like to read posts that are more adventurous than "I got 4000 DPS" or "I got out DPS'd by a wizard, nerf them!" </p><p>The reason swashbucklers get flack from other classes is that many (or most) other players are clueless about us, and they only ever see one aspect at a time then assume we can do that <em>all </em>the time. But we can't, because many of our facets are mutually exclusive.</p><p>Can we tank? In a pinch, at the cost of most of our DPS and debuffs.</p><p>Can we debuff well? Against a <u>single</u> target, pretty well, yes. Against large encounters, not at all.</p><p>Do we have decent utility? Emergency taunts, mez, offtarget stuns... yes, not too bad. But use those in combat at the cost of our DPS.</p><p>Can we DPS pretty well? In <u>multi</u>-mob encounters, yes; in single target situations, fairly good too (though not on a par with rangers). But then our debuffs become very limited in usefulness in multi-mob encounters, where our DPS shines (not like a bard or mage who can debuff an entire encounter at once).</p><p>A good swashbuckler can adapt to any group situation and shine: either through pretty high DPS in a large encounter; through saving the tank and boosting group DPS with debuffs in a single-target encounter; or by actually stepping up, going defensive and taking the hits himself. But he can't do <u>all</u> those things at maximum effiiciency <u>all</u> the time. The better he is, the faster he can adapt to a changing situation. <u>That</u> is where the real skill is in playing a swashbuckler.</p><p>And that's the issue with other classes looking at our abilities and potentially getting jealous: while a decent player can juggle our abilities to maximise them for any given situation, none of us can pull off <em>everything</em> all at once. Yet when people focus on just one facet at a time, that's the impression they get. That we're "all that", all the time. In truth, we're just quite a bit of that, some of the time. But hell, we can't let anyone actually know that: it's our job to look good and make it look easy! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[tawek]

<div></div><div>Good post, Overfloater,</div><div> </div><div>And I agree.  I'd like to hear how people use our skills to really shine.  This forum is refreshing in the way folk share great ways to improve our effectiveness.  I've learnt a lot from posts in this forum.  Indeed, recently, I think WIldfury has shared more useful information about tanking than anyone in this forum.</div><div> </div><div>It's just it might be wise, in-game, to be diplomatic.</div><div> </div><div>As a class, we have lots of options.  As you say, we can switch between dps, damage prevention with debuffs/stuns/mezzes, and over to tanking/off-tanking.  Many tanks are pretty mediocre dps, so the only thing they do well is tank.  It's may be their fault they've got average mit/avoidance, or weak taunt skills, but taking over the main tank role is always gonna be a tricky diplomatic maneouvre.</div><div> </div><div>I wasn't there, and the folk WIldfury teamed with sound like a bunch of jerks, and may well be my suggestion is totally inappropriate.  But I've seen another thread with this theme, and I wanted to make a cautionary point.</div><div> </div><div>Until, of course, SoE upgrade our fun charm skill into: charm the main tank position from the main tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by tawek21 on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:42 PM</span></p>

[Zygwen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:<div></div><div></div>Wanted to Ding 60 - so headed to giants in PoF with xp group (got 60 solo later on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )I was highest lvl in the group @ 59, also had a 56 bruiser, 57 zerker*I offered to tank as I had the best balance of avoidance/mitigation (5% lower avoidance than the bruiser but 1000 more mitigation, 15% higher avoidance than the zerker and only 50 less mitigation)<hr></blockquote>One of the things often overlooked is that avoidance ratings are versus your own level. So your avoidance was probably higher than the bruiser and much higher than the zerker in actual fact since it is your avoidance versus a 59 mob and theirs was versus a 56 and 57 respectively. Futhermore, if the mobs where 58 then they would be yellow to them and blue to you giving you a bonus on defence and a penalty to them based on level difference. Sadly, most people don't realize the nuances of the game.</span><div></div>

[Keyh]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zygwen wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:<div></div><div></div>Wanted to Ding 60 - so headed to giants in PoF with xp group (got 60 solo later on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )I was highest lvl in the group @ 59, also had a 56 bruiser, 57 zerker*I offered to tank as I had the best balance of avoidance/mitigation (5% lower avoidance than the bruiser but 1000 more mitigation, 15% higher avoidance than the zerker and only 50 less mitigation)<hr></blockquote>One of the things often overlooked is that avoidance ratings are versus your own level. So your avoidance was probably higher than the bruiser and much higher than the zerker in actual fact since it is your avoidance versus a 59 mob and theirs was versus a 56 and 57 respectively. Futhermore, if the mobs where 58 then they would be yellow to them and blue to you giving you a bonus on defence and a penalty to them based on level difference. Sadly, most people don't realize the nuances of the game.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Agreed, I was in a Palace group (70 swashy) with a Berserker (lvl 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that loved his offensive stance. He had 7 less mit than I and 20% less avoidance. The group leader (a wiz) wanted the Berserker tanking but couldn't give me a good reason why. Granted he had about 1,000 more health than me, but I had 2 levels on him. *Shrug* people tend to ignore levels and see x mit x avoidance.</span>

[RingleToo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div><p>A good swashbuckler can adapt to any group situation and shine: either through pretty high DPS in a large encounter; through saving the tank and boosting group DPS with debuffs in a single-target encounter; or by actually stepping up, going defensive and taking the hits himself. But he can't do <u>all</u> those things at maximum effiiciency <u>all</u> the time. The better he is, the faster he can adapt to a changing situation. <u>That</u> is where the real skill is in playing a swashbuckler.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Love that part. And it's why I so enjoy playing my swashy. To be fair to those who don't understand what a swashy can do, it's because we are so versatile. I have a templar that is fun to play, but I know that as a templar I have one job: healing. Even when I solo my job is pretty much healing myself since dps is so bad :smileyvery-happy: But when I play my swashy, there's so much more I can do depending on the situation. We are the epitome of the jack-of-all-trades. We may not be the best at any one thing, and that's what makes playing a swashy so fun.</p>

[SageGaspar]

I think a lot of people lose track of how much of a difference there is between someone who upgrades gears and spells and is on the ball in combat.I'm fully geared into T7, have my master defensive stance, use an AGI potion when I'm tanking, have Adept III of my most damaging CAs, went WIS line for extra procs, keep two or three poisons on at all times, have good weapons, etc.I've met a ton of people I can outtank and outDPS but have myself been outtanked and outDPSed by members of their class before (though the DPS issue is a little more sketchy, I think some tuning might be in order, though I know we might get the worst of it, hehe).Hell, I have a Bruiser and a Swash, and I can outtank most of the pickup group brawlers out there, but my Bruiser can outtank my Swash no question. Not bragging, just saying that there's a world of difference if you gear up and play smart as opposed to the random people you tend to get in pickups.<div></div>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

<div></div><div>My mitigation is higher than the tanks in half of the pickup groups i'm in, and my avoidance is almost always higher. But I keep quiet about it, because tanks get VERY defensive of their skill if a scout offers to tank <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</div>

[overfloat]

<div></div>Avoidance varies throughout your level. Really it's an utterly useless statistic except for immediate comparisons of your own avoidance when switching out armour. There's certainly no point in comparing it between characters, unless they're of exactly the same level and almost exactly the same % through their current level.

[Zygwen]

<span><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div>Avoidance varies throughout your level. Really it's an utterly useless statistic except for immediate comparisons of your own avoidance when switching out armour. There's certainly no point in comparing it between characters, unless they're of exactly the same level and almost exactly the same % through their current level.<hr></blockquote>Also keep in mind that fighters have buffs that allow them to boost other peoples avoidance while at the same time giving themselves a defensive boost. Those buffs don't always show up properly when inspecting avoidance. I disagree that it is utterly useless for comparisons. It is useful but you have to understand the limitations of the information in conveys.</span><div></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><p>The problem with avoidance is that it can vary by up to, like, 30% over the course of a level. I might be exaggerating that figure a little, I haven't paid that much attention to it in so long, but it's certainly a large enough a % to make comparisons between two different characters at different stages of their current level very shady.</p><p>Comparing a level 40's avoidance vs. a level 40 mob with a level 42's avoidance vs. a level 42 mob is bad enough. But when the level 40 is 99% through his level and showing 50% avoidance, while the level 42 is 1% through level and showing barely 22% avoidance, judging true comparative avoidance with any degree of accuracy becomes nigh upon impossible. I'd almost prefer to see just an overall avoidance figure, much like mitigation.</p>

[WolfSha]

<div></div><p>You've also got to remember that tanks have short term buffs they can throw up if things get sticky, so just inspecting a tank  while he standing there picking his nose isn't necessily going to give you the full picture - zerkers for instance get 2 short-term mit buffs and 1 short-term avoidance buff.</p><p>My zerkers 2 mit short-term buffs together give me an ~1500 extra points of mitigation (ok they're both master 1, but the adept 3's are that far behind) which is a big boost when you need it.</p><p>Be careful when thinking you can tank as well as a fighter.  If the fighter is poorly equiped and played then yeah, definately, if not then no.</p><p>I tank with my swashie a lot, and he tanks well - been very impressed with his ability to do it, but i know he's not a patch on my zerker and they're a fairer comparison (both being in full legenday or better and both played by me!) than my swahie vs some random person in a pickup group in.</p><p> </p>