The Tanking Swashy -- Proof Swashies are the coolest class

[Keyh]

Thought I'd share this story with you guys. I usually like reading about other people talking about how great we are so I decided I'd post something.Setting: The Blackscale SpelchurGroup: 2 Shadowknights (lvl 63,65), 2 Troubadours (lvl 63,69), a Fury (lvl65), Myself (lvl 66)Starts off with me mumbling to myself about the motley group. So I went there, and was dismayed at the sight of yellow mobs to me. Examining the Tank he had ~3400 mit and 35% avoidance. I said my prayers and hoped the Fury could keep up.We started pulling the enemy hits the group and I notice the Shadowknight take a hit to 60% health. I start crying and start hitting hard and hitting fast. This continues until the Fury unleashes an AoE and pulls in 2 more groups, I go to mez one from the second group but the DPS Shadowknight already DoT'd it. We wipe. Wipe #1.We persevere and head back in. The Shadowknight tries grabbing the group that the Fury pulled in. Then grabbed another. The shadowknight got killed, followed by the healer. We wipe. Wipe #2.We head back in he starts pulling, hits down to 50%. Right now I'm thinking "How can I get myself out of this." Finally it dawned on me. I /gsay Let me tank. Everyone ignores me and we start pulling. So again /gsay Let me tank. We pull again, the Shadowknight goes down to 30% health. So again /gsay Please let me tank. Again I'm ignored, so I throw up my defensive stance, kill my aggro transfer and proc and ready myself. The Shadowknight pulls two groups. The Shadowknight gets hit down to 40%. I AoE and snatch three of them away from him and start taunting to keep them. I tried taking the fourth one off of him, but he had his taunts on them good so I couldn't break it away. He stayed around 50%-60% health while I was consistently 80%+. After the fight the Fury  says "Maybe Keyh should tank, he was taking less damage." The Shadowknight started saying that it was because the NPCs hit harder in the beginning. So I started tanking, never went under 70% health. I made a mistake and grabbed 2 groups in one of the rooms. I AoEed to try to keep them on me, and started to Mez one of the mobs, but the Shadowknight had already DoTed them. The Fury then throws an AoE that pulls in a third group. I attempted to taunt them off him, but it was too late. Wipe #3. I take blame and apologize.The next 5 minutes was spent with the Shadowknight describing his epiphany. The shadowknight said, despite all of the mobs being the same some "hit harder"....

[Sabatini]

<div></div><p>I'm sure they do hit harder...if you cant get out of the way. Gotta love avoidance. :smileywink:</p><p>Now imagine the fun if you had the aoe AA taunt.</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>There more than a few tanks that simply dont maintain their armour. stats or CAs. It's almost the same as those Scouts who don't maintain themselve and then start complaining about who's outdamaging them.</p>

[Purg]

<div></div><p>even steel in steel at lv 31 mutter mutter armourer <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, i out mit and avoid many tanks my level, i can keep hate just as well, plus i have evac and group invis, just wait till i actualyl get my feysteel and my axp aoe taunts.</p><p>Its hard work tanking a swashy well but very satisfying, i doubt i could go back to playing  a proper tank, particulary in small group situations, we were taking on orange triple ups, and i kept hate from a wizzy 6 levels higher than me,</p><p>First time i offered to tank for a group, i had to discuess mitigation and figures with them as they wanted an adept 1 tank pet 1 level lower than me go tank, they finalyl let me tank for a bit and then all was well.</p><p>last night i tanked for a group and i tanked instead of a paly 2 levels below me, they group accepted my offer without hesitation and it all went well.</p><p>interesting to see people mindsets on what a tank should be, and how my offers to tank are accept, i know i never will be a raid tank, but in small sensible groups i do fine.</p><p>we have might hate reducers 2, at 31 20% chance per hit of loosing 542 hate, loving this class, i keep geting new cool abilities. (lv 32)</p>

[Ai064]

<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p>

[Keyh]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>I'd say that we're no more or less a tanking class than Monks are....</span></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><hr></blockquote>Meh, tanks who keep up on their gear should still be tanking better than Swashbucklers. No one's got an issue with a monk DPSing, I can't see what the huge problem is with a swash tanking.</span></div>

[Keyh]

Also, his mit was pretty [Removed for Content] poor for a T7 plate user :p

[Luk]

<div></div><div>I was in a group the other day, down the bottom level of Sanctum of Scaleborn, something happened and the tank threw a hissy fit and gated out, followed closely by another member of the group. We sat there thinking, well, what do we do now, so I checked track, couple of named up, and suggested we go for them, took out 5 named in an hour with 4 people, a temple healing, a brigand DPSing, an illusionist DPSing (not mezzing) and me tanking. Had an absolute ball, got a couple of big quest updated, did the ring event and got a couple of legendary drops. Was great fun, and hillarious to hear the other talk in amazement about how Swashies CAN tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by Licit on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:12 AM</span></p>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Licit wrote:<div></div><div>I was in a group the other day, down the bottom level of Sanctum of Scaleborn, something happened and the tank threw a hissy fit and gated out, followed closely by another member of the group. We sat there thinking, well, what do we do now, so I checked track, couple of named up, and suggested we go for them, took out 5 named in an hour with 4 people, a temple healing, a brigand DPSing, an illusionist DPSing (not mezzing) and me tanking. Had an absolute ball, got a couple of big quest updated, did the ring event and got a couple of legendary drops. Was great fun, and hillarious to hear the other talk in amazement about how Swashies CAN tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I really need to start carrying a decent shield around with me for special occasions, hehe. I'd love to grab the STA line too, but I'm not willing to sacrifice WIS.Bottom line, which I said with my Bruiser and I'll say again now, 90% of group tanking in EQ2 is just having someone who is a competent puller and capable of holding aggro. This is less true in high level instances like HoF which are murder, but something like Sanctum, you're not going to have an issue.</span></div>

[Ai064]

<div></div><p><em>I'd say that we're no more or less a tanking class than Monks are....</em></p><p><em></em> </p><p>You're kidding right?  Monks are an avoidance based FIGHTER class while swashbucklers aren't.  I wouldn't think I'd have to make that distinction but if you think a dps scout class should be equal to a fighter class I guess I'd better.  Ever hear of class distinction?  Subclass roles in the fighter class should all be equal to tanking but fighters and scouts should not. </p><p> </p>

[Zygwen]

A fighter with same quality gear should always tank better but in a pinch we do surprisingly well.Last night we couldn't get a tank to help us with The Book of Sacrifice subquest so I ended up tanking for my group of 4, Templar, Dirge, Ranger, Swashbuckler. This was with wis line 4-4-8-4-0. Towards the end I had to switch to defensive stance. The problem with Swash tanking is keeping agro on multiple groups.<div></div>

[Luk]

<div></div>I did it with my dual wields.

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Zygwen wrote:The problem with Swash tanking is keeping agro on multiple groups.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Swashes actually do that better than a lot of the tank classes. Just save your AEs for when you have a multiple pull and there'll be no issues. My brawler used to hold aggro on multiple groups just with his AEs, and ours are better.As for the disgruntled monk, Rogues are the most tank-like scouts and Brawlers are the most scout-like tanks. I've had a monk out-DPS me from time to time and I've seen brawlers that I can outtank.I have both a brawler and a rogue, and I'd have to say that I really like where both of them are at the moment. If I wanted to tank I'd definitely want my brawler.</span></div>

[Purg]

<div></div><p>we must be intended to tank atleast a bit why do we get taunts, and a whole sta axp taunt line.</p><p>A decent tank with decent kit can out tank me, but a legendary wearing swashy with 30 masters can out tank a common wearing tank.</p><p>it comes down to how well you play and your kit and spells, my swashy is all legendary, every spell is a master.</p>

[Ai064]

<div></div><p>Okay, I'll grant you that since you do have taunts the intention must have been for some tanking ability at least.  That's a good point. </p><p> </p><p>Being quiet now.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Raveller]

That's too much typing. Here's a simpler proof:Brint = Swashbucker. Brint = Cool. Therefore, Swashbuckler = Cool.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>They'll be the same people that take issue when a Brawler passes a Rogue on a DPS parse. I well decked out Brawler can surpass a poor Rogue... A <strong>very</strong> well decked out Rogue can surpass the tanking of a <strong>very</strong> poorly decked out Brawler in a bracket of situations.</p><p>I fail to see what the controversy is. Unless of course you feel it's ok for a Brawler to challenge a Rogues DPS on occassion but not the reverse.</p>

[Wildfury77]

The MERCENARY (stamina) line lends itself to swashie tanking/dps. Very useful for 2---->6 man groups.I'm lvl 59 - in rare crafted jewelry/armor with the coif of the shadowstalker. My AoE taunt is app4 (stamina line) and my direct taunt master 1. ALL my attacks are at least adept III --------> more damage more agro.With higher avoidance,mitigation and good hitpoints, why shouldn't i tank?  I can hold agro well and won't die!! Besides a lot of monks and paladin PREFER to offtank and support me!I can still start the encounter from stealth and with cheapshot can get at least 2 of my 3 backstabs in each cycle (if i'm fast).My DPS won't suffer as i move up the 4th skill in the stamina line (DPS +50% @ lvl <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and I'm much more "Rugged" than most scouts.MY ADVICE - play your toon the way you want, don't get upset my tanks or  duel-wielders that think theres only one RIGHT way to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The AAs were meant to provide a bit of flavor!!!In summary I can tank better than averagely equipped non-plate tanks and better than SKs/Paladins who are several lvls lower than me - e.g. 3 or 4 lvls. I don't insist on tanking and prefer to be at the back with a mighty Berserker shielding me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but i CAN do it VERY well if needed!<i><font color="#ff0000">Play your own way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></i><div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sabatini wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure they do hit harder...if you cant get out of the way. <font color="#ffcc33">Gotta love avoidance.</font> :smileywink:</p><p>Now imagine the fun if you had the aoe AA taunt.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Now if thats the case how come people got  attitude to monks/brusiers tanking ?</p><p> </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">I'd say that we're no more or less a tanking class than Monks are....</font></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>And that is one hell of a ludicrus statement ....</p><p> </p>

[Owa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>They'll be the same people that take issue when a Brawler passes a Rogue on a DPS parse. I well decked out Brawler can surpass a poor Rogue... A <strong>very</strong> well decked out Rogue can surpass the tanking of a <strong>very</strong> poorly decked out Brawler in a bracket of situations.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I fail to see what the controversy is. Unless of course you feel it's ok for a Brawler to challenge a Rogues DPS on occassion but not the reverse.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p><font size="4">That sounds fair enough...but didn't they change that? Bruiser DPS was lessened in LU#20 precisely as it was too close to that of Scouts. At least that's what they told <em>me</em>...</font></p><p><font size="4">Of course thisrole-swap argument also ignores the fact that DPS and tanking are all Bruisers have, as opposed to Scout classes, who enjoy extra [and very useful goodies] such as smuggle, evac, snare etc etc.</font></p><p><font size="4">I'll echo the 'disguntled monk' and advise that crowing about one's achievements is a sure way to get your class nerfed. Bruisers know this. :smileyindifferent:</font></p><p><font size="4">OTBBFIPCPS1987</font></p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>They'll be the same people that take issue when a Brawler passes a Rogue on a DPS parse. I well decked out Brawler can surpass a poor Rogue... A <strong>very</strong> well decked out Rogue can surpass the tanking of a <strong>very</strong> poorly decked out Brawler in a bracket of situations.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I fail to see what the controversy is. Unless of course you feel it's ok for a Brawler to challenge a Rogues DPS on occassion but not the reverse.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p><font size="4">That sounds fair enough...but didn't they change that? Bruiser DPS was lessened in LU#20 precisely as it was too close to that of Scouts. At least that's what they told <em>me</em>...</font></p><p><font size="4">Of course thisrole-swap argument also ignores the fact that DPS and tanking are all Bruisers have, as opposed to Scout classes, who enjoy extra [and very useful goodies] such as smuggle, evac, snare etc etc.</font></p><p><font size="4">I'll echo the 'disguntled monk' and advise that crowing about one's achievements is a sure way to get your class nerfed. Bruisers know this. :smileyindifferent:</font></p><p><font size="4">OTBBFIPCPS1987</font></p><hr></blockquote>IT was fixed my swashies DPS blows my brusiers away

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><p><font size="4">Of course thisrole-swap argument also ignores the fact that DPS and tanking are all Bruisers have, as opposed to Scout classes, who enjoy extra [and very useful goodies] such as smuggle, evac, snare etc etc. </font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Pfft... you "only" have DPS and tanking, two of the most critical factors in the game, and do both of them very well. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Would you like heals too? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *snicker* Wait, you kinda have those anyway... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And "all bruisers [brawlers] have", my backside. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You have group haste/DPS buffs. You have single target avoidance buffs. You have FD! You have invis or fear. You have a significant self or single target heal. You have either a defense or offense debuff. That's a fair amount of utility for someone able to replace a plate tank for most group content and also get very good DPS without all the positional requirements that are placed upon rogues.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr><font size="4">I'll echo the 'disguntled monk' and advise that crowing about one's achievements is a sure way to get your class nerfed. Bruisers know this. :smileyindifferent:</font><font size="3"> </font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, instead we should all whine and cry that our classes are crap and unplayable. Nobody should <strong>ever</strong> appear remotely happy about playing the game.</p><p>Rogues are designed to be light tanks. We've been pushed into that role from the word go, so it's not a surprise. It's just that very few others realised it because rogues (swashbucklers in particular) were completely borked for most of the first year of EQ2, and hence had a tiny population and little publicity. Everyone knows brawlers do great DPS for a fighter class because there are brawlers everywhere, and there always have been. Just because rogue tankability is news to you and is finally "fixed" to the point of being somewhat useful doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. The Devs are well aware of how well we can or can't tank -- in fact, they specifically gave us a tanking AA branch for rogues wishing to pursue that concept further.</p>

[Randell44]

Honestly my swashie is only lvl 23, but even with the lack of the taunts I have already tanked.  OF course I also went sword/shield from lvl 7 but <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  (hard to pass up a legendary buckler with 134 protection at lvl 7 lol).  Then i came to love the idea of the STA line and stuck to it.Usually I hang back a bit and let others tank but i keep my aggro lvl close to the main tanks and if things go south I can usually snatch it or if i think he has a particular critter too well i'll grab the rest of the encounter.  If i get in trouble i always have evade and other such things.Later on my swashie gets even cooler, I can't wait.<div></div>

[Sabatini]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Now if thats the case how come people got  attitude to monks/brusiers tanking ?</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>Well I've got no problem at all with Monks/bruisers tanking. I group nearly nightly with one. But in normal groups, not raids, and I certainly wouldnt want a rogue playing MT in a raid either. But there have definately been times I've outtanked my monk friend, because he avoids a bit more but I've got chain mitigation when it hits. I'm sure there's been times he's given me a run for my money on damage too. But play off each other really nicely though.</p><p>But my comment above was specifically aimed at the SK in the story who complained certain ones hit harder. SK's arent generally noted for their superior avoidance skill. :smileywink:</p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><p><font size="4">Of course thisrole-swap argument also ignores the fact that DPS and tanking are all Bruisers have, as opposed to Scout classes, who enjoy extra [and very useful goodies] such as smuggle, evac, snare etc etc. </font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Pfft... you "only" have DPS and tanking, two of the most critical factors in the game, and do both of them very well. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Would you like heals too? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *snicker* Wait, you kinda have those anyway... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And "all bruisers [brawlers] have", my backside. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You have group haste/DPS buffs. You have single target avoidance buffs. You have FD! You have invis or fear. You have a significant self or single target heal. You have either a defense or offense debuff. <font color="#ff3300">That's a fair amount of utility for someone able to replace a plate tank for most group content and also get very good DPS without all the positional requirements that are placed upon rogues.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">/ Highlighted because thats the main issue we have , people dont except any class other than a plate tank  to tank for them the whole attitude of we need a plate tank is what pisses most people off , they dont see that there are 3 fighter class lines all designed with taunts to be able to tank </font><font color="#ffff00">more fool them i say.  Each Fighter has uniqe traits , we get the DPS and Avoidance , Guards get the best taunts & MIT , Pali Get Heals and Mit and so on .</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Ive just started playng my swash lately and have started down the light tank route so i know it can be done and it works quite well tbh , i would happy tank or accept a swashie tank for us in a group BUT if there is a Brawler available they always get that job because they do it better , plain and simple fact .. Yea we get some nice solo tools but not much to add as swashies do we just tank u just destroy and debuffs</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">for the most part i completly agree with you , played a swashie from launch to lvl 50 back when a grind WAS a GRIND , we sucked bigtime we were only ever in need for naggy runs (remember those days) but we have been given a new lease now :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><blockquote><hr><font size="4">I'll echo the 'disguntled monk' and advise that crowing about one's achievements is a sure way to get your class nerfed. Bruisers know this. :smileyindifferent:</font><font size="3"> </font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, instead we should all whine and cry that our classes are crap and unplayable. Nobody should <strong>ever</strong> appear remotely happy about playing the game.</p><p>Rogues are designed to be light tanks. We've been pushed into that role from the word go, so it's not a surprise. It's just that very few others realised it because rogues (swashbucklers in particular) were completely borked for most of the first year of EQ2, and hence had a tiny population and little publicity. Everyone knows brawlers do great DPS for a fighter class because there are brawlers everywhere, and there always have been. Just because rogue tankability is news to you and is finally "fixed" to the point of being somewhat useful doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. The Devs are well aware of how well we can or can't tank -- in fact, they specifically gave us a tanking AA branch for rogues wishing to pursue that concept further.</p><hr></blockquote>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sabatini wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Now if thats the case how come people got  attitude to monks/brusiers tanking ?</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>Well I've got no problem at all with Monks/bruisers tanking. I group nearly nightly with one. But in normal groups, not raids, and I certainly wouldnt want a rogue playing MT in a raid either. But there have definately been times I've outtanked my monk friend, because he avoids a bit more but I've got chain mitigation when it hits. I'm sure there's been times he's given me a run for my money on damage too. But play off each other really nicely though.</p><p>But my comment above was specifically aimed at the SK in the story who complained certain ones hit harder. SK's arent generally noted for their superior avoidance skill. :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><p>SK'S S.U.C.K ooops didnt say that out loud did i ???? :smileywink:</p>

[Owa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Pfft... you "only" have DPS and tanking, two of the most critical factors in the game, and do both of them very well. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Would you like heals too? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> *snicker* Wait, you kinda have those anyway... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And "all bruisers [brawlers] have", my backside. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You have group haste/DPS buffs. You have single target avoidance buffs. You have FD! You have invis or fear. You have a significant self or single target heal. You have either a defense or offense debuff. That's a fair amount of utility for someone able to replace a plate tank for most group content and also get very good DPS without all the positional requirements that are placed upon rogues.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr><font size="4">I'll echo the 'disguntled monk' and advise that crowing about one's achievements is a sure way to get your class nerfed. Bruisers know this. :smileyindifferent:</font><font size="3"> </font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, instead .</p><p>Rogues are designed to be light tanks. We've been pushed into that role from the word go, so it's not a surprise. It's just that very few others realised it because rogues (swashbucklers in particular) were completely borked for most of the first year of EQ2, and hence had a tiny population and little publicity. Everyone knows brawlers do great DPS for a fighter class because there are brawlers everywhere, and there always have been. Just because rogue tankability is news to you and is finally "fixed" to the point of being somewhat useful doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. The Devs are well aware of how well we can or can't tank -- in fact, they specifically gave us a tanking AA branch for rogues wishing to pursue that concept further.</p><hr></blockquote><p><font size="4">Firstly, if you can point out where I said 'we should all whine and cry that our classes are crap and unplayable' I'll eat my hat. I was just pointing out that similar 'we are the best class'-type posts on the Bruiser boards swiftly led to us NOT being the best class.  </font></p><p><font size="4">Secondly, if you can point out where <em>I</em> said you need to be nerfed I'll eat <em>your</em> hat -why warn you that this type of post could lead to a nerf if I wanted you nerfed? Think, man.</font></p><p><font size="4">Finally, if you're suggesting that fighters' utility skills are on a par to that of scouts I'm going to have to not bother reading any more of your posts as you're clearly out of your mind.</font></p><p><font size="4"></font> </p><p><font size="4">OTBBFIPCPS1987</font></p><p></p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">And "all bruisers [brawlers] have", my backside. <img height="16" width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif"> You have group haste/DPS buffs. You have single target avoidance buffs. You have FD! You have invis or fear. You have a significant self or single target heal. You have either a defense or offense debuff. That's a fair amount of utility for someone able to replace a plate tank for most group content and also get very good DPS without all the positional requirements that are placed upon rogues.</font></p><p>I'll forgive you obvious ignorance, but suggest that you do some research before tossing out claims.</p><p>"Group Haste or DPS buff" - this is such a small increase it's practically worthless. Lvl 70 Bruiser can barely scratch +20% DPS. The only reason we have it up is because there's nothing else to have. If you want +DPS, you go with a Coercer (who has +60% or so). And even then, it's all only applying to autoattack... not combat arts.</p><p>Single target avoidance buff helps ME tank better (it gives me more agility). This is more of a tanking bonus than utility.</p><p>If Feign pulling were an issue in this game, then FD might be worthy of being decent utility. Right now it's basically a poor man's deaggro or wipe prevention. However, if I'm tanking, I'm the first to go down, so FD ends up never being used!</p><p>"Significant" heal. Right. It used to be decent at 60s recast and 1/3 health with no power cost. Now it's avg 25%, requires power, and 90s at best (the monks is even more useless). I tried helping a guildy with Ghoulbane in that cove in nek forest... my self heal couldn't keep me alive at lvl 52 vs a lvl 30 something necromancer dotting me with his piddly disease spell. Self heal can be lumped into "extra tanking", it is a FAR cry from any form of utility.</p><p>As a bruiser, my offense debuff helps me stay alive longer, and I view it as more tanking related than utility. Although it can be used to help anyone tank, so I'll give you that.</p><p>Fear and mini Mez are the only REAL utilities we have... and honestly, since they break on being struck so often, I rarely get a chance to have them stick... let alone have a situation that requires it.</p><p>As for positional requirements for DPS... what do you think Bruisers have to do? We have one ability that requires flanking, and another ability that will only do high damage under set conditions (creature stunned).</p><p>Not to mention that if I use every single one of my combat arts, plus taunts, in full cycle, I'm down to 50% power. That's not including any self healing (5% power used up per heal).</p><p> </p><p>On the flip side, my brigand has no less than 4 aggro related abilities, at least 4 (maybe 5? losing count) debuffing abilties that do FAR FAR more debuffing than anything my Bruiser could dream of, has wonderful group saving abilities that can also double as travel (evac), and a ton of high damage combat arts that don't eat up power NEARLY as quickly.</p><p>My brigand can spot tank if needed, he can single target tank fairly well with the right healer (especially with master 1 defensive stance), but if it comes to holding aggro and surviving major encounters, my Bruiser will outtank (read: stay alive AND keep aggro) far better than my Brigand.However, if it's going to be pure DPS, my Brigand will do FAR more damage than my bruiser... and my brigand is 5 levels lower!</p><p>Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on <span class="date_text">03-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:31 PM</span></p>

[Writer Cal]

<div></div><p>Sure, my swashie can tank -- in certain situations (she's in average gear right now, not great but not all crap.)  If I'm in a questing group where the only fighters are 5-7ish levels below her and not decked out in great gear, then, yeah, my swashie ends up being the more capable tank.  But a skilled fighter with decent gear and similar levels will outperform my swashie every time.</p><p>My swashie does work great as an offtank, though.  Let the fighter be the MT/MA.  My swashie will be the one minding the healers and casters.  If they get aggro, then I've got my stuns, taunt, mez, and DPS to rip aggro off of them right quick and buy them time, and I can take the resulting hits better than some classes until I can pass aggro back to the MT.</p><p>I think this is the way it's supposed to be.  We can fill in various roles in certain situations, but we're not the best at anything when up against a pure tank or DPS class with comparable levels/gear/skill.</p>

[Keldo]

Just to echo, Swashbucklers can tank, but if you think a brawler tanks worse, you obviously have never grouped with a good brawler.<div></div>

[Luk]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:Just to echo, Swashbucklers can tank, but if you think a brawler tanks worse, you obviously have never grouped with a good brawler.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I fully agree here, any class is only as good as the player at the other end.

[Wildfury77]

Thats the problem my fabled equiped/ master 1 skilled swashie <font color="#ffff00"><i><b>is a far better tank </b></i></font>than MOST brawlers i come across ---> What am i to do? Ignore the fact that my skills, & equipment make me the obvious choice over some scrawny brawler <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />P.S. I'm a sword+shield, stamina line swashie. I defy the average brawler running around PoF, SS to out tank me......the good brawlers are all in KoS!!!<div></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>annaspider wrote:<div></div><p><font size="4">Firstly, if you can point out where I said 'we should all whine and cry that our classes are crap and unplayable' I'll eat my hat.  </font></p><hr></blockquote><p>You didn't, and I never said you did. However, you <strong>did</strong> say that we shouldn't refer to any of our positive achievements because it would only get us nerfed. If you think we should never refer to any of our positive attributes, what does that leave for discussion on the forums except our negative attributes?</p><p>Exactly.</p><p>Reading comprehension ftw.</p><p> </p><blockquote><font size="4"></font><hr>Secondly, if you can point out where <em>I</em> said you need to be nerfed I'll eat <em>your</em> hat<hr></blockquote><p>I didn't say that you told us we needed to be nerfed.</p><p>Again: reading comprehension ftw.</p><p>What I said was: Just because <em><u>you've</u></em> seen us talking publicly about how we can tank to a semi-decent extent doesn't meant the <em><u>Devs</u></em> will see the same posts and suddenly feel the need to nerf us. The Devs have been actively trying to improve our tanking, particularly through our STA AA branch. What I'm telling you is that you apparently don't understand our class or the Devs' intentions for our abilities, so you really don't need to tell us to keep all hush hush about the abilities we've been <u>intentionally</u> given for fear of being nerfed.</p><p><font size="4"></font> </p><blockquote><hr>Finally, if you're suggesting that fighters' utility skills are on a par to that of scouts I'm going to have to not bother reading any more of your posts as you're clearly out of your mind.<hr></blockquote><p>No, that's not what I'm suggesting. Reading compreh-- ... eh, you know what I'm going to say.</p><p>You were saying that "DPS and tanking are all Bruisers have", and I was debunking that. I'm not saying your utility is on par with a rogue's utility, but I am saying you do have <em>some</em> decent utility ... and if you overlook it and consider it useless, you're daft.</p><p>FD is one of the most powerful utility abilities in the game (particularly on the insta-cast and fast recast that brawlers have). Other classes would give their eye teeth for it. There are rogues spending 25AA points solely to get a 30s FD once every 5 minutes, if that tells you anything.</p><p>You also have better group buffs than rogues (we have... none, other than pathfinding), a pretty sweet single-target buff and a not-insignificant debuff. You have a significant self heal, which rogues would kill to get their hands on. You also have either self invis or fear, depending on your subclass. That's not bad for a class with very high DPS and far superior tankability to an equally-geared rogue.</p><p>What I'm saying is, rogues really specialise in a mix of utility and DPS (though neither quite match up to the specialist classes, predators and bards), with a small side order of tanking. Brawlers specialise in tanking, along with great DPS and a small side order of utility. It all evens out.</p><p> </p><p><font size="1">Edit: dumb typo</font></p><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:55 AM</span></p>

[Owa]

<div></div><p><font size="4">Ok - that was a pretty good rebuttal of my rebuttal. And it made me laugh - 'reading comprehension ftw' :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><p><font size="4">However, if you imagine that making posts about how you out-tank tank classes will garner a different response from the Devs than that which resulted from Bruisers posting about out-damaging DPS classes... well, then either you haven't been keeping an eye on the nerfometer over the last 14 months or you're just a really optimistic person.</font></p><p><font size="4">Oh, and fear stinks. I'd exchange mine for self-invis - or even free tickets to Thundering Steppes for that matter -  in a heartbeat.</font></p><p><font size="4">OTBBFIPCPS1987</font></p>

[Wildfury77]

Silly bruiser "nerf" = balance - sometimes a class goes up!! sometimes down <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you truly believed that SoE sets out to ruin every class and "nerf" them as you and so many others wail about then how come there seems to me to be an equal movement of skills and classes in the opposite direction??I'm really sorry that bruisers are no longer "UBER" maybe you are upset that they don't have heals or lifetap.......<div></div>

[Owa]

<div></div><p><font size="4"> </font></p><blockquote><font size="2"></font><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:Silly bruiser "nerf" = balance - sometimes a class goes up!! sometimes down <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you truly believed that SoE sets out to ruin every class and "nerf" them as you and so many others wail about then how come there seems to me to be an equal movement of skills and classes in the opposite direction??I'm really sorry that bruisers are no longer "UBER" maybe you are upset that they don't have heals or lifetap.......<div></div><font size="2"></font><hr></blockquote><p><font size="4">Firstly I'm hardly 'wailing'. Secondly, I understand a little about balancing and rebalancing the game and its constituent player classes, thanks. Thirdly, my sole objective in posting on your forum was as a warning  that a nerf may result from these sort of threads - based on what happened on our boards. Anyway, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it. No matter what I say you seem to think my goal is to get your class nerfed. I can't be bothered any more  - so bollocks to you, bollocks to your board and bollocks to me for being naive enough to even try to offer any advice, misguided or not. </font></p><p><font size="4">Owain the British Bruiser </font><font size="2">'Fighting in Pub Car-Parks Since 1987 and Minding His Own Business Since This Post'</font></p>

[Luk]

<div></div>Thank you for your posts Anna, I do wish that people would not rant on about things when someone is offering hard learned advice

[Tarya]

Aye its all about the person behind the class... how well they play - what they have invested in as in skills and equipment - and the way they prefer to play. If they want to be tanking or dpsing. I prefer dps myself (though occasionally have tanked when true tank has gone afk).But what I found really fun was with my guild mate Brattigan here - two swashies together rock <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> since we can swap the tanking as we please. YAHOO... go swashies go...To-be-goodie-thief (I want that hood)MB<div></div>

[Geero]

<div></div><p>66 wis swashy here.  I haven't played MT role since mid 50s so I won't say how good of tank we are.  But I can tell you this, I have seen Necro/Conj pets tank better then some of so called tanks out there.</p><p>Don't blame the game, blame the player.</p>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Raidi Sovin'faile wrote:<div></div><div></div>"Group Haste or DPS buff" - this is such a small increase it's practically worthless. Lvl 70 Bruiser can barely scratch +20% DPS. The only reason we have it up is because there's nothing else to have. If you want +DPS, you go with a Coercer (who has +60% or so). And even then, it's all only applying to autoattack... not combat arts.<p>Single target avoidance buff helps ME tank better (it gives me more agility). This is more of a tanking bonus than utility.</p><p>If Feign pulling were an issue in this game, then FD might be worthy of being decent utility. Right now it's basically a poor man's deaggro or wipe prevention. However, if I'm tanking, I'm the first to go down, so FD ends up never being used!</p><p>As a bruiser, my offense debuff helps me stay alive longer, and I view it as more tanking related than utility. Although it can be used to help anyone tank, so I'll give you that.</p><p>Fear and mini Mez are the only REAL utilities we have... and honestly, since they break on being struck so often, I rarely get a chance to have them stick... let alone have a situation that requires it.</p><p>As for positional requirements for DPS... what do you think Bruisers have to do? We have one ability that requires flanking, and another ability that will only do high damage under set conditions (creature stunned).</p><hr></blockquote>Group haste and DPS are big. Melee attacks make up a good 20-40% of my Swash's DPS. A 20% boost to that gives me an extra 4-8% DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at, especially considering it affects every melee class in the group.Single-target avoidance buff is great for casting on the MT.FD is huge. I can't tell you how many times I've found myself in a situation where I could've done something solo with FD, but now I need a huge group. Or I could've saved my group by FDing. FDing helps recover from bad pulls in tight areas (FD without being pre-healed and the mobs never attack your group).Fear and mezz I've used to successfully lock down the CQ djinn's adds. Not great for every situation, but they're handy sometimes. I'd say this is the least useful of all the things you've listed.The positional requirements are sort of laughable. Two of those attacks that you listed are some of the bruiser's best ones because they're knockdowns. That's utility that wasn't mentioned, and it's very big, that a bruiser can keep a mob on its back for long periods of time including on heroics. This is a very significant cut to the mob's DPS, I know it's saved my bacon a lot of times.And let me agree with Geero, the player matters much much more than the class as long as they're in a class that is capable of tanking a place. It'd be very tough to make a group dungeon that well-equipped rogues couldn't tank and brawlers could with the current system, taking into account tanks that don't upgrade their gear, which there are a ton of. Likewise, it'd be hard to make a group dungeon where rogues could fill DPS roles but well-equipped brawlers couldn't. You just can't be that exacting. </span></div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:40 AM</span></p>

[Laoch69]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">I'd say that we're no more or less a tanking class than Monks are....</font></span></div><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ff9900">Wow, I spit my coffee up all over my keyboard after reading that line, hiliarious!! Thanks for that little nugget <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p></blockquote>

[Keyh]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Laoch69 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ai064 wrote:<div></div><p>I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you swashies that the actual "tank" classes might not enjoy the fact that a scout class can out tank them.  I wouldn't be shocked to see comments asking for swashbuckler nerfs ref: this post.  I'm not sure why you would post something like this actually.</p><p>The other night in SoS a lvl 60 swashbuckler joined our group and the first words out of his mouth are "Guess I'm tanking eh?".  Mind you I'd been tanking as a lvl 65 monk for an hour already.  I politely said that I don't mind tanking and we went to business with no wipes.  However, it's very frustrating to have a non-tank class (even 5 lvls lower!) offer to tank over a fighter class.</p><p>All I can recommend is keeping quiet about your tanking prowess.  Based on other classes' bragging about dps, solo ability, unbreakable roots, etc that's one sure way to get SOE's attention.  They won't fix anything in a timely manner but by god they will reduce effectiveness of skills in a heartbeat.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">I'd say that we're no more or less a tanking class than Monks are....</font></span></div><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ff9900">Wow, I spit my coffee up all over my keyboard after reading that line, hiliarious!! Thanks for that little nugget <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Hey no problem, defeating complete ignorance is what I'm here for.</span></div>

[Wildfury77]

IT DEPEND HOW YOU PLAY YOUR TOON!1)A duel wield, offensive stance swashie who has focused on strength and poison is inferior to 99% of monks at tanking as you would expect!!2)A sword + shield, well equipped swashie (fabled,legendary) with master 1 direct taunt, stamina line (read the last skill, its clear SoE made this line for tanking ----> +agro, +defense) and with adept IV AoE taunt is equal  or better than most monks at tanking!. WHY? because with this <b><i>very specialised setup</i></b> we have high avoidance, higher mitigation than any monk and enhanced hitpoints. Also we can hold agro very very well.VERY few swashies play with this setup as it trades significant DPS and probaly just moves us to only monk level tanking.......The AAs were put in for flavor!! So what if a few swashies interfere with tanking, tanks can improve their tanking or dps with their AAs too!!Why on earth would SoE "NERF" their own new system of enhanced variety, its not like we are interfering with any of the <i><b>real tank classes</b></i> or even the better played monks <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - go back to playing <b><i><font color="#ffff00">arcade gauntlet</font></i></b> if you like rigid roles.....lol<div></div>

[Purg]

<div>for want of a better phrase i'm a number 2.</div><div> </div><div>Sword shield, to be sta and then str lengh.</div><div> </div><div>As said already i plan to light tank and solo, and can't afford 2 sets of weapons or gear so i set my char up defensivle.y.</div><div> </div><div>Interesting thread,</div><div> </div><div>I love the new aas, they aren not overpowering and do allow us to make our chars more unique,</div><div>Good point about compareing a twinked out swashy why a full ap line to a standard monk. its not a fair comparison.</div>

[Keyh]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote: go back to playing <b><i><font color="#ffff00">arcade gauntlet</font></i></b> if you like rigid roles.....lol<div></div><hr></blockquote>Green Brawler is about to die</span></div>

[Luk]

<div></div>I tanked the Vault last night after a wipe left our tank in second rate gear, I had 400 more mit, 25% more avoidance and didn't die once and only lost aggro when we were on the named at the end <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[WolfSha]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Ok, perhaps I can add a bit of balance to this as my two main chars are a swashie and a zerker.</div><div> </div><div>I do tank with my swashie quite a bit and we are reasonably compitent at it...</div><div> </div><div>In fact a swashie in all legendary player made will have higher mit and avoidance than an equal lvl tank in common harvest player made, but that's about where any advantage ends.</div><div> </div><div>A plate tank in equivilent gear (ie tank in all cobalt with good shield vs swash in all cobalt) will have higher mit <strong>and </strong>avoidance than a swashie, and a leather tank will have <strong>much</strong> higher avoidance.</div><div> </div><div>Also, although we can hold agro ok on single targets our group agro holding is pretty poor - ok we can aoe for agro but aoes dmg is not gonna do much good if you're grouped with another decent aoe dps class like a warlock - they'll have agro off you so fast you might as well let them tank - this may change a bit with the aoe taunt AA (been working on my zerker mainly since KoS as i'm raid MT for the guild so it was important for me to get him to 70, but that's done i'm now working on the swashie again) but there is more than just aoe taunt in a fighters arsonel to help them keep agro.</div><div> </div><div>Also, remember that while you may have higher avoidance than some tanks with junk gear that spell damage can't be avoided and is simply based on your resists.  With equal resists all that is left is your HP which should normally be lower than that of a fighter.</div><div> </div><div>It is possible to get your tanking stats like sta (for HP) and wis (for resists) up to match a tank, but then you're doing yourself out of DPS by trading off strenght etc.  We're a bit in the middle on this - we can't get up to T1 dps and match a wizard or ranger, but we can't tank like a fighter class can either.  Personally i like our mix of the 2 - we're much more flexable.</div><div> </div><div>To the original OP, i dunno what was up with your SK's that evening - 3400 mit and 35% avoidanceis VERY VERY low for a tank that's supposed to be tanking - they must have been on offensive stance and have poor gear. </div><div> </div><div>I play most evenings with a lvl 70 SK friend of mine on my 70 zerker and we both have about ~4800-5000 mit and 55% avoidance when equipped and "stanced" to tank rather than DPS.</div><div> </div><div><div>Swashies make great add-tanks and surprisingly reasonable make-do tanks for when no <em>real</em> tank is available, but we're <strong>not </strong>as good as a proper tank - we can tank ok, just not great - i know this cause i have both, and I have to say that i'd hate to see my swashie nerfed because people mistakenly believe that swashies can tank as well as fighter classes while doing more DPS -  we simply can't!</div><div> </div></div><p>EDIT:</p><p>One thing i do have to agree with from the OP is this:  Swashies are a really cool class.  We're much less broke than we used to be and I don't think any class can match a rogue for flexability.  I wouldn't swap my mix of tank and dps for the world and I love the ability to compitently play 2 roles, even if we truly master neither.  The AA's really add to this ability to fill 2 roles.</p><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:14 AM</span></p>