Wisdom Line

[aubreyy]

<div>Hello, If I am missing a post, please let me know. I havnt visited the site in a little bit. I was hoping to find some real evidence whether the WIS line makes up for the loss of DW. I see the discussion came up, then trailed off, and I thought the would be some data by now. I keep hearing people raving about the Wis line. I think it would be useful to some thinking about going that path if we posted our parses with DW and Wis line (unencumberence rank 8 only) for rough comparison. I just respec'ed for Wis today to try it out, but havn't gotten the chance to see. I was expecting 66% chance with unencumberance, but I came out with only 52% @ rank 8. I know the other posts were saying you need 50% to make up for DW loss, so I wonder if it is still viable. I am going to DL a parser this week, but it would be neat to see other peoples data as well. Again, I apologize if I missed a post that solved this already.</div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Raizzel, 69 <em>ratonga</em> swashy of guk</div>

[Rokjin]

<div>As I posted in the general AA thread, it's actually 72%. You get 20% from Freehand Reversal at any rank.</div>

[-Llama-]

I maxed out the double attack parts of the Wis line and have not turned back. Using the Godking 1h sword, I have noticed a significant improvement over DW. Last night in Vault of El'Arad, I parsed a 1832 DPS using inspiration, and auto attack with hurricane on, on a 3 mob encounter. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Awlis]

<div></div><p>Ok I recently respected from strenght line to wis line.. and I am currently 4 4 2 into it.</p><p>I parsed all my fights for 3 days before respect and for 3 days after, so a huge amount in the end.</p><p>Before strenght line 4 4 0 (made 2 aa's in that time)  12% slash 10% pierce and 2 % gleaming strike using 2 imbuded cobalt weaps.. grand total of 24% of my damage</p><p>After Wisdom (4 4 2) using blade of bixie 29% slash</p><p> </p><p>these are percentages of my total damage, so atm I am 5% more damage with wis line</p>

[-Llama-]

<div></div>Are you using mostly auto attack? That is the difference of the DPS. Spamming combat arts is not the way to high DPS numbers. It takes finesse. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You also will need to be 4 4 8 in wisdom to see a substantial increase in DPS.<div></div><p>Message Edited by -Llama- on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:44 AM</span></p>

[Awlis]

<div></div><p>no i fight with finesse =p</p><p> </p><p>I dont spam or just let auto attack.. what i am trying to say is my fight style has remained unaffected, but my auto attack slash dmg has risen by 5%, therefore my total dps has risen by 5% and I am only 4 4 2... thats a good thing to me... this is over a similar specced strenght so I would guess that its maybe 8 % higher than a base line no AA</p>

[Fouri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Llama- wrote:<div></div>Are you using mostly auto attack? That is the difference of the DPS. Spamming combat arts is not the way to high DPS numbers. It takes finesse. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You also will need to be 4 4 8 in wisdom to see a substantial increase in DPS.<div></div><p>Message Edited by -Llama- on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:44 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Not to highjack this thread, but I am curious about finesse vs spamming combat arts.  What do you mean by finesse?</p><p>Thanks! </p>

[Awlis]

<div></div>using the right ca at right time in right order... getting postional attacks off when possible.. getting mitigation down early to help with mellee attacks.. debuffing magic early with casters in group things like that

[-Llama-]

At least from a raid standpoint, Finesse is autoattacking and using the right CAs at the right time as stated above. Just spamming every CA you have will put you at a disadvantage because you miss a lot of auto attack damage with the recovery timers of CAs. By using certain CAs here and there, you can really maximize your DPS. Personally, I use all our mit debuffers, and go autoattack happy until they are down, then toss a backstab or 2 and remit debuff, and repeat.<div></div>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div>I was under the impression that you would need more points in unencumbrance to start realizing a net dps increase (at least more than 2).  This question is of some importance to me as I am currently 45 and only have just over 12.5 achievement levels.  I've dumped my points into strength line until I had enough points to max wisdom.  However, based on my current rate of adv. level gain vs. achievement point gain, I am not gonna have anywhere near 21 points by the time I reach 50.  I would prefer to buy one really nice crafted 1h at 50, rather than spring for 2 dual wields and then still have to buy a 1h later after I get enough AP to max wisdom.</div><div> </div><div>Realistically (based not just on theoretical statistics, but on actual experience) can anyone tell me at what point does 1h at least start breaking even with approximate quality dual wields.  Statistically it would seem to have to be at more than 2 points in unencumbrance as thats only a net 34%(?) chance to double attack.  I figured it would take at least 4 points (ie, 48%(?)) to break even and likely more than that.</div><div> </div><div>Edit: I guess part of my confusion here is how much more on a % basis do 1h-ers do relative to dual wield.  Is it really generally 50% for player crafted items of similar quality.  If so, I guess you could start seeing a slight benefit even at 34%.  However, if only 1.4 or lower it would probably take at least 4 points.  Bit of a newb to the game and only played dual wield toons so far, so clueless one it comes to 1h. </div><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:33 AM</span></p>

[Rokjin]

<div>Since the proc rate for double attack is not normalized (as it should be for balance between fast/slow weapons), and 1h weapons do 75% DPS of same level/quality DW..</div><div> </div><div>Looking at auto-attack only, then:</div><div> </div><div>At 2 Unencumberance, that is 33% Double Attack</div><div> </div><div>0.75 * 1.33 = 0.9975</div><div> </div><div>At 3, that is 39.5% double attack</div><div> </div><div>0.75 * 1.395 = 1.04625</div><div> </div><div>So the closest 'break even' point is at 2 points, and at 3 points, you are dealing 4.6% more damage.</div>

[Rokjin]

<div>For kicks also, at 8 Unencumberance:</div><div> </div><div>0.75 * 1.72 = 1.29</div><div> </div><div>So in theory you are doing 29% more auto-attack damage.</div>

[Fouri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<div>Since the proc rate for double attack is not normalized (as it should be for balance between fast/slow weapons)......<hr></div></blockquote><p>Hi Rok - So that I can better follow, would you mind explaining 'normalized' in this context and how the proc rate would be different if it were normalized?</p><p>Thanks much!</p>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rokjin wrote:<div>Since the proc rate for double attack is not normalized (as it should be for balance between fast/slow weapons), and 1h weapons do 75% DPS of same level/quality DW..</div><div> </div><div>Looking at auto-attack only, then:</div><div> </div><div>At 2 Unencumberance, that is 33% Double Attack</div><div> </div><div>0.75 * 1.33 = 0.9975</div><div> </div><div>At 3, that is 39.5% double attack</div><div> </div><div>0.75 * 1.395 = 1.04625</div><div> </div><div>So the closest 'break even' point is at 2 points, and at 3 points, you are dealing 4.6% more damage.</div><hr></blockquote>I've heard that 1h-ers have 75% dps of dual wield before, but the weapons I see (at least at my level) don't seem to pan out that way.  For example lvl 50 pristine imbued 1hers are listed at dps of 49.7, while pristine imbued dual wield at same level and quality are listed at 37.2 (or 74.4 combined).  Unless my math is way off that's more like 2/3 than 3/4 of dual wield dps.  That means that it would take 45-50% double attack rate to break even (at least using those weapons).  If thats true, I would want to wait til at least had enough for 4 points into unencumbrance to make the switch.  Is this right or am I missing something here.

[-Llama-]

<div></div>Rokjins right. You can't go by damage rating, thats not a mathmatical figure really, just a SOE rating system. If you auto attacks a grey mob with DW and buffs, and then switched to 1h and same buffs, you sould see 1h without double is 75% of the DW dps.Now... What Rokjin figured is correct about the autoattack % increase. A few interesting tidbits.1. Hurricane Auto attack will also proc double attacks2. Poisons and all normal procs proc off double attack3. Inspired Daring and Inspiration all proc off double attacks.Basically, the DPS increase wont be as substantial until you hit 52, once you get hurricane... You are a very happy fencer. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And you DPS will go way up once you start fighting 4 mobs at once, double attacking all of them at one time, and procing poisons on multiple.<div></div><p>Message Edited by -Llama- on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:17 AM</span></p>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>-Llama- wrote:<div></div>Rokjins right. You can't go by damage rating, thats not a mathmatical figure really, just a SOE rating system. If you auto attacks a grey mob with DW and buffs, and then switched to 1h and same buffs, you sould see 1h without double is 75% of the DW dps.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't doubt that you both are correct in this, I just feel ignorant when it comes to how autoattack weapon dps works.  Is there some place where I can go to get some definitive info on basic game mechanics, particularly those associated with weapon dps and/or devensive skills/abilities.  I like to have at least a basic understanding of certain fundamental game mechanics, and it seems like documentation with respect to such mechanics is sorely lacking in this game (if provided at all). </p><p>I understand the position that providing too much info is counterproductive, but there are certain basic mechanics which are key to building your character and should be made apparent to all.  This is particularly true given the choices they are asking us to make regarding AAs post-KoS.</p><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:36 PM</span></p>

[Rokjin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr><p>Hi Rok - So that I can better follow, would you mind explaining 'normalized' in this context and how the proc rate would be different if it were normalized?</p><p>Thanks much!</p><hr></blockquote><p>Non-Double Attack procs are 'normalized'. That means that the % to proc that you see on them is with a 3.0 delay weapon. So a 5% proc will go off on 5% of the hits of a 3.0 delay weapon. With a 1.5 delay weapon, it's halved, so a 5% proc will off on 2.5% of the hits of a 1.5 delay weapon.</p><p>It keeps fast weapons balanced with slow weapons, since both will have the same # of procs in a given minute.</p><p>Double Attack on the other hand (and Hurricane, which leads me to believe it's not Normalized), give an actual 'extra attack'. This means that a 3.0 delay weapon will proc an extra attack as if you had waited 3.0 seconds to swing again. If you halved the proc rate for Double Attack on a 1.5 delay weapon, it would be unbalanced because the Double Attack of the slow weapon is 'worth' 3 seconds, while a double attack of a 1.5 delay weapon is 'worth' 1.5 seconds.</p><p>So for Double attack, with a 72% Double Attack rate, on a total of 100 swings of your weapon, you will get an extra attack 72 times. With any weapon.</p><p>For a 'Normalized' proc, with a 72% proc rate, on a total of 100 swings of your weapon, if it was 3.0 delay, you would proc 72 times. If it was 1.5 delay, you would proc 36 times, but it would take you half as much time to make the 100 swings.</p>

[Fouri]

<div></div>I get what you mean Rok, thanks.

[dagoo7]

<div></div><p>I found the following very useful info on zerker boards while researching my new alt.  While slightly off topic and directed, obviously at berserkers and their AA lines.  This excerpt from an excellent berserker AA faq is the best and most concise discussion of dps mechanics that I have ever seen, and the data seems reasonable and believable.  Thought it might be of interest and general usefulness for all of those, like me, want to understand such mechanics a little better.</p><p> </p><p><font color="#cccc33">The DPS Comparison</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Foreword: This appendix is designed to introduce the reader to the ways in which the Offensive Bonus options will affect their character. The math performed here is fairly simple, and is done with models based on ratios, giving it direct translation to actual mechanics, while not being illegible.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">There are generally speaking two ways for a Warrior to generate DPS. They are auto-attack(melee and ranged) and combat arts. Both of these categories are specifically effected by certain mechanics multipliers. They are as follows:</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Auto-Attack(melee and ranged): +DPS% +Haste% +Critical% +DoubleAttack%Combat Arts: +Critical%</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">DPS, Haste, and Double-Attack do not have any effect on your combat art damage. Period. That may lead you to believe that raising your critical chance is the best way to improve DPS, but let's take these options one by one, and compare them.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">DPS (Damage Per Second): +DPS modifiers exist in many places, most often in buffs such as Berserk, the Inquisitor Aura line, or the Bruiser group +DPS line. This modifier multiplies the damage you do with every hit by the total % modifier you have. Simply put, you hit harder with every attack. Since +DPS is independent of time, you do not improve your chances for causing any procs, risking any ripostes, or improving interrupt chance. This is a completely safe and neutral option for improving your damage. +DPS caps at 100% bonus, meaning you strike for double damage with every attack. DPS is a simple multiplier in calculations, and as such will appear in many subsequent calculations solely as *DPS.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Haste (Attack Speed): Haste modifiers, like DPS modifiers, are common. Haste is the most common modifier, and involves some tradeoffs. As haste is not independent of time, but instead actively acting on it it does increase the number of chances for procs to occur, increases risk of riposte, increase interrupt chance, etc. Haste also improves the efficiency of your strikes, allowing you to kill slightly faster by not overkilling your opponents as often. Haste, like DPS, caps at 100%, at which time your attack speed is -halved.- A 3.0 speed weapon would attack at 1.5 speed. 100% Haste does not reduce your attack speed by 100%. In calculations the best way to express haste is as a multiplier of (WeaponSpeed/(1+Haste%)) I.E. at 100% haste you would have WeaponSpeed/2.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Double-Attack: Double-attack is relatively new to the game, and currently has very few modifiers. Double-attacks can only trigger on auto-attacks, this includes melee and ranged attacks. Double-attacks are not like normalized procs, and as such are independent of weapon speed. Because of this Double-Attack can be considered much like "another" Haste or DPS, in that it will ultimately play the same role on your DPS, improving your auto-attack dps evenly. The trade-offs for using double-attack are increased riposte risk for increased interrupt rate. The double-attack cap is unknown, but I believe it is likely to be 100%.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Critical (Bonus damage): Critical hits are relatively new to the game. Currently they result in a 30% bonus to damage. Critical hits, unlike other DPS modifiers are capable of acting on Combat Arts, giving them an advantage. However, unlike the other abilities which add completely in "units" (a double-attack is 2 hits, not 1.3 hits) critical hits must be considered carefully, as they only add 30% of the critical chance to your overall DPS. How does that work?</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">If you had one ability that did 100 damage had a 10 second cooldown, you would expect to do 600 damage in a minute. If you had a 50% critical chance, you would now crit 3 of those attacks (on average) which would increase the damage 30% (or 30 points, 3 times.) Now you've done 690 in the minute, meaning despite your 50% critical chance, you've only improved your DPS by 15%. (50% crit chance * 30% damage modifier = .5 * .3 = .15)</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">How can you maximize your DPS to fit your playstyle?</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">There are multiple ways to approach this problem, but we will put modifiers like stats (STR) aside in order to simply compare what is possible within the Achievement system.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">First you must consider where your damage comes from. Some players rely on auto-attack for a good amount of damage, while other players continuously use techniques to quickly wipe out their opponents. Let's consider a hypothetical situation in which your character does 25% of their DPS through auto-attack, and 75% through the usage of combat arts.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">The achievement lines offer roughly +20% haste, +20% DPS, +76% double attack, and +20% critical rate.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Let's say you do 25 "units" of damage with auto-attack and 75 with combat arts. If you improved this amount by 20% through taking 20% haste, or 20% haste, you would now be doing 30 units of damage with auto-attack, improving your overall damage from 25 + 75 = 100 to 30 + 75 = 105. A 5% boost in damage.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">If you took 76% double-attack, you'd improve your 25 units by 76%, turning 25 into 44, or gaining 19 units, bringing your overall DPS from 100 units to 119, or almost a 20% bonus to overall damage.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">But how can that be right? That's not balanced at all. Well, keep in mind a few things. First that the double-attack achievement requires a buckler, and second that if a buckler is equipped 2h or DW weapon set can't be used.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">How do these options compare differently in this special case?</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">1h weapons are designed to have 75% of the damage rating of DW or 2h weapons, or in other words, 2h/DW do 33% more damage than 1h.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">So going back:20% haste or DPS with a 1h: 25*1.2 = 3020% haste or DPS with a 2h/dw: 25*1.2*1.33 = 4076% double attack with 1h: 25*1.76 = 44</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">It seems that double-attack with a 1h is capable of competing with 2h/dw auto-attack with +haste or DPS. This established STA's double-attack as the most powerful auto-attack modifier, but also the one with the most limits (1h+buckler only) this is one of the tradeoffs for the high DPS.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">How about crits? Remember that crits are 30% modifiers, so they have to be multiplied through, BUT they also effect combat arts.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Before we start, let's figure that out.20% crit * 30% bonus = .2*.3 = .06, 6% total damage modifier</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">25 units of auto-attack damage * 1.06 = 26.575 units of combat art damage * 1.06 = 79.526.5+79.5 = 106 units of damage, or a total of 6% bonus. Remember that +20% haste or DPS resulted in a total of 105 units of damage, or a 5% bonus to damage.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Math aside, how can I maximize my Damage?</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">If your damage comes more than 25% from auto-attack, you will benefit more from raising haste/dps/double-attack over raising critical. If your damage comes 75% or more from arts, then raising criticals will have the most effect.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">If you are using a 1h and shield, you can maximize your DPS by going STA line. If you are using a 2h or DW, you can maximize your DPS by going into haste and DPS (see note below.) If you are relying on arts, focus on critical hits. Remember, balanced by being different but roughly equal.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Sidenote: The "quad damage and octo damage" effect.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Because combat arts have only one modifier effecting them, crit chance, which maximizes at 100% (or 30% bonus) combat arts have a maximum potential of 1.3x. On the flipside, auto-attack has DPS, Haste, and Double-Attack all contributing to it, each of which doubles damage at 100%. If you were able to maximize all 3 modifiers, you would be doing 8x unmodified auto-attack DPS (1 unit *2(Double DPS) *2(Twice as many hits from haste) *2(Double-attack each hit)) = 8.</font></p><p><font color="#cccc33">Also, since these modifiers act serially, and multiply off each other, it is much easier to build a large number. For comparison, 20% DPS or haste may only generate 5 additional units of damage off a starting 25 base: (25*1.2 = 30) however 20% DPS -and- Haste grants a larger effect (25*1.2*1.2 = 36) a six unit bonus instead of only another 5. In order to maximize your auto-attack you will want to keep all of the modifiers as high as possible and as even to each other as possible. If at 50% DPS and 10% haste, and offered 20% haste or DPS, you'd gain more from haste for example.</font></p>

[Rokjin]

<div></div><div>Ironically enough that FAQ you just referenced was written by Kemt, one of my friends that I regularly group with and that I've discussed the Double Attack mechanics with often.</div><div> </div><div>Ironic isn't it.. It's a.. small forum after all?</div><div> </div><div>Notably also, as Swashbucklers, we can get tons of Haste easily and if we want to raise our auto-attack DPS, we would want to focus on +DPS stufff. And yes, he had actually figured out early on the auto-attack mechanics stuff and we optimized our party make up for it.. The addition of Double Attacks in AA was just a nice bonus on top.</div>

[dagoo7]

<div></div>I realize this is a stupid question, but just want to confirm before I drop a chunk of cash on an imbued pristine 1her, that it doesnt matter what type of weapon is in mainhand as long as offhand is empty.  Looking at a battle axe and just seems very unfencer-like, but hell if it works I might go ahead and get it rather than wait for a sword/rapier.

[Keyh]

The wis is anything as long as the offhand is empty. It could be a dual-wield if you wanted.

[Riktiktiche]

<div></div><p>the big reason doubleattack gives more DPS is that the double attacks proc everything but another double attack, wich means that poisons, hurricane and offencive stance will proc more often, and that makes a big difference in Over time DPS, i parsed some fights with a 2 lvls higher swas that had gone agi for the proc, and we averaged about the same DPS but i used clearly less power, the negative is that you will burn trough ALOT of poisons</p><p> </p><p>Staff</p>

[PritchMR]

<div>so yeah im a brigand but i did some parsing of the double attack vs dw and posted some stuff over on the brigand forums</div><div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=8455&page=3" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=8455&page=3</a></div><div> </div><div>check it out it shows that for me i proc more stuff and do more dps with the double attack and with u guys and your haste buff its probley going to be even more</div>

[Runaf]

<div></div><p>Tested this out myself in a Halls of Fate group. Did not cast any skills, turned off my poisons, and was not using hurricane (which would have boosted 1 Hander output moreso). I'm only up to Unencumberance rank 1, so roughly 25% double attack. Duel weild was Prizzy 2.0/Tura's Fang and 1 Hander was the Cleaver.</p><p>1 HANDER: 223 DPS Avarage193.2 DPS230.7 DPS235.5 DPS217.2 DPS242.3 DPS</p><p>DUEL WEILD: 188 DPS Avarage124.1 DPS192.1 DPS227.8 DPS218.8 DPS179.3 DPS</p><p>If I can turn out that much of a DPS increase just with 25% double attack, then with hurricane, poisons, and a 60-70% double attack the difference should be huge.</p>