Stay Low... Question..

[Tiphison]

From my understanding, Stay Low should throw me into stealth while in combat so I can use a stealth attack on the target, but in combat it never puts me in stealth.. so what is the purpose of it? Perhaps maybe in a group it might work, I haven't been in a group since I came back and don't remember from before so... Could anyone explain this move to me?<div></div>

[Shiverr]

<div></div><p>Im no expert by any means but my experience with, and understanding of, the StayLow/ Lay Low/ Whatever Low is this:  It is used in grouping as you suspect.  It is used when you draw aggro from a tank for instance.  When it is used, it is targeted on the mob of which has now decided to pound on you.  When it is used, it will shift you down the "aggro food chain" directing the mob back to the tank, and place you into stealth mode.</p><p>It seems to work about every time for me, and is a great tool when grouping and concentrating on the DPS/debuffing of our class and I get a little too happy and am hitting a bit too hard.  It is essentially an aggro shift back to a tank with a bonus of being thrown into stealth and being able to use the stealth required flanking attax again, etc.  If you are tanking, its obviously not of great value.  Hope that was worth something to ya....</p><p> </p>

[riblete]

You can effectively use <i>Stay Low</i> while soloing as well. You just need to time casting <i>Stay Low</i> so that there is a half-second after it goes off before the mob attacks you again. Follow <i>Stay Low</i> with <i>Brazen Thrust</i>, knocking down and stunning the mob. Jump over the mob and begin casting <i>Pillage</i> as you jump, and que up <i>Disheartening Guile.</i> The knockdown+stun effect of <i>Stay Low</i> works against heroics, so it gives you the chance to use the from-the-back attacks.<div></div>

[Grey-Cat]

<div>   Has anyone noticed a problem with this spell line (stay low, lie low, ect.) since the last live update. Twice today I cast it and the mob stayed on me. I have never had this happen before. I was also grouped with a dirge. I am not sure if it is the same spell, but he said something about his deagro spell not working to. I would appreciate and infor anyone else has. If this is a class wide problem or if it is just a fluke thin with me. If anyone else has had a similar problem it would be great if we could get it looked into. Thanks.</div>

[Luk]

<div></div>Shadow Slip works fine, I used it a couple times last night

[Grey-Cat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Licit wrote:<div></div>Shadow Slip works fine, I used it a couple times last night<hr></blockquote>Huh thats strange it failed me again tonight in Anceint Table. Maybe I should bug it.</span><div></div>

[ftsha]

<div>The problem with this skill is that you need to turn your auto attack off.  Otherwise it will strike and the stealth will be gone.  You won't even notice that it went off but it did.</div>

[Grey-Cat]

   Its not so much the not getting into stealth as the failure to reduce my agro thats killing me. I understand that if an auto attack went off it would break steath, but I am still the top of the agro chain and the tank can't even taunt it off.<div></div>

[Paedaeon]

<div></div><div>I love the Stay Low line.  I use it continually when I group to ensure that I only take aggro when I intend to.  As soon as it refreshes, I just pop it off again and follow it with a stealth attack since I'm in stealth anyway.</div><div> </div><div>As for taking aggro and your tank not being able to pull the mobs from you--be sure to use your Swarthy line of spells.  These allow you to 'blame' your tank for a % of the threat you generate.  When 'blamed', your tank will not only be able to hold aggro from you--he will be more able to hold it from everyone else too.  (Which means he will not have to spam taunts.)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Gille</div><div>62 Swashbuckler</div><div>Splitpaw</div><p>Message Edited by Paedaeon on <span class="date_text">02-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:23 PM</span></p>

[the flu]

I think your confusion is with the phrase "threat position". Think of it less as an ordered list of people in your group, and more of a list with slots in it. For example, a list of 10 slots, 1 for every 10% of the mobs total hate you have, with sub slots for every 1% (so 1a, 1b, etc). When you cast shadow slip, in this set up you would essentially loose 10% of the total hate for the encounter. Most of the time, this would be enough to give aggro to the next highest person on the hate list (hopefully the tank, though it could be a wizard or other dpser if your tank doens't know what he's doing).However, if you are at 56%, and the tank is at 44% of total hate (assuming a duo), using shadow slip won't get you out of jail free- you're still holding more aggro than the tank (46% and 44%, respectivly-assume the 10% just floats out there since there is no transfer), and will have to lay low until the tank can taunt aggro back. It does make it significantly easier for the tank to regain aggro if you do this though.<div></div>

[Grey-Cat]

<span><blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:I think your confusion is with the phrase "threat position". Think of it less as an ordered list of people in your group, and more of a list with slots in it. For example, a list of 10 slots, 1 for every 10% of the mobs total hate you have, with sub slots for every 1% (so 1a, 1b, etc). When you cast shadow slip, in this set up you would essentially loose 10% of the total hate for the encounter. Most of the time, this would be enough to give aggro to the next highest person on the hate list (hopefully the tank, though it could be a wizard or other dpser if your tank doens't know what he's doing).However, if you are at 56%, and the tank is at 44% of total hate (assuming a duo), using shadow slip won't get you out of jail free- you're still holding more aggro than the tank (46% and 44%, respectivly-assume the 10% just floats out there since there is no transfer), and will have to lay low until the tank can taunt aggro back. It does make it significantly easier for the tank to regain aggro if you do this though.<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Thanks, I actually didn't know thats what threat position meant. You learn something new every day. I always did think of it as a list of the 6 people in the group. If I was on top of the list then it would move me to number 2.But this problem I am having is a brand new problem since lu20. I haven't leveled or gotten new spell upgrades, except I got a master of swarthy diversion so if anything that should help me reducing agro. And I am playing with the exact same people I always have been playing with since it is a guild group. So this is a new problem I was having. I'll do some more experimenting and see if I can come up with anything else that might be causing it, but right now all I can think of is that I am somehow bugged.</font></span><div></div>

[classcfirewor]

<div></div>I always took the term threat position to mean just what it sounds like.  Everyone appears on a mobs hate list, these abilities move you down below whoever is unlucky enough to be next in line.  It also throws a "de-taunt" that lowers the amount of hate that determins your position.  But if the hate reduction isn't enough to keep you below the next toon on the hate list, the mob just turns right back on you.<blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:I think your confusion is with the phrase "threat position". Think of it less as an ordered list of people in your group, and more of a list with slots in it. For example, a list of 10 slots, 1 for every 10% of the mobs total hate you have, with sub slots for every 1% (so 1a, 1b, etc). When you cast shadow slip, in this set up you would essentially loose 10% of the total hate for the encounter. Most of the time, this would be enough to give aggro to the next highest person on the hate list (hopefully the tank, though it could be a wizard or other dpser if your tank doens't know what he's doing).However, if you are at 56%, and the tank is at 44% of total hate (assuming a duo), using shadow slip won't get you out of jail free- you're still holding more aggro than the tank (46% and 44%, respectivly-assume the 10% just floats out there since there is no transfer), and will have to lay low until the tank can taunt aggro back. It does make it significantly easier for the tank to regain aggro if you do this though.<div></div><hr></blockquote>

[the flu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>classcfireworks wrote:<div></div>I always took the term threat position to mean just what it sounds like.  Everyone appears on a mobs hate list, these abilities move you down below whoever is unlucky enough to be next in line.  It also throws a "de-taunt" that lowers the amount of hate that determins your position.  But if the hate reduction isn't enough to keep you below the next toon on the hate list, the mob just turns right back on you.<blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:I think your confusion is with the phrase "threat position". Think of it less as an ordered list of people in your group, and more of a list with slots in it. For example, a list of 10 slots, 1 for every 10% of the mobs total hate you have, with sub slots for every 1% (so 1a, 1b, etc). When you cast shadow slip, in this set up you would essentially loose 10% of the total hate for the encounter. Most of the time, this would be enough to give aggro to the next highest person on the hate list (hopefully the tank, though it could be a wizard or other dpser if your tank doens't know what he's doing).However, if you are at 56%, and the tank is at 44% of total hate (assuming a duo), using shadow slip won't get you out of jail free- you're still holding more aggro than the tank (46% and 44%, respectivly-assume the 10% just floats out there since there is no transfer), and will have to lay low until the tank can taunt aggro back. It does make it significantly easier for the tank to regain aggro if you do this though.<div></div><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Essentially, we are saying the same thing- that just because you go down a position, doesnt mean you've lost enough hate to loose the mobs focus. My way makes more sense to me, and is how I explain it (a position doesn't necessarily mean from first to second) I think it's easier to visualise if there are more slots than group members, but that's just how I view it.</span></div>

[riblete]

<blockquote><span><font color="#ffff00"></font></span><span><font color="#ffff00">... I haven't leveled or gotten new spell upgrades, except I got a master of swarthy diversion so if anything that should help me reducing agro. And I am playing with the exact same people I always have been playing with since it is a guild group. ...</font></span><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>If you are having problems with agro with a master swarthy diversion while using shadow slip, you have some other more serious problem on your hands. Is your tank a pally, and putting ammends on the wrong chracter? Is your tank not taunting? Is your tank using an agro debuff on you while you are transfering agro to him? (that can cause huge problems!)  With agro transfer, de-agro buffs, and shadow slip, not sure how you can even get agro unless it is from unlinked adds that the tank has never taunted.<span></span><span></span><div></div>

[Grey-Cat]

<span><blockquote><hr>ribleteto wrote:<blockquote><span><font color="#ffff00"></font></span><span><font color="#ffff00">... I haven't leveled or gotten new spell upgrades, except I got a master of swarthy diversion so if anything that should help me reducing agro. And I am playing with the exact same people I always have been playing with since it is a guild group. ...</font></span><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>If you are having problems with agro with a master swarthy diversion while using shadow slip, you have some other more serious problem on your hands. Is your tank a pally, and putting ammends on the wrong chracter? Is your tank not taunting? Is your tank using an agro debuff on you while you are transfering agro to him? (that can cause huge problems!)  With agro transfer, de-agro buffs, and shadow slip, not sure how you can even get agro unless it is from unlinked adds that the tank has never taunted.<span></span><span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff3300">Exactly, now you understand why I am complaining. I am getting agro from a single mob encounter, that the tank pulled. Its not the tank, since I have been grouping with him since I was like a level 40, and he is an exceptionally good tank. I am pulling agro before the wizards (some of whom are very agresive wizards, who we even refer to as a battle mage because he pulls agro off anyone and often just ends up tanking if we don't have one available) and even when I cast shadow slip I am still on the top of the chart. In addition to all that, I cast evade during the course of the battle, but still about halfway through the fight I am like mob superglue. Thats why I think there must be a bug or something. Thats why I am at such a loss here. Nothing had changed and I am ditching so much agro its crazy. There is no way I should have these mobs stuck to me</font></span><div></div>

[Elt]

<div></div>I'm not sure if this will fix your problem, but its a great tool for raids I find.  Try using your evasion line whenever its up.  Relatively low power cost and it can stop alot of unwanted aggro.

[Luk]

<div></div><div>When I am in a group and have someone to put diversion on, ie tank is not a pally with amends on me, then I don't use any deaggro because the transfer is both positive and negative threat, however, with amends I believe that it is only positive hate. With diversion, you are actually reducing the aggro of the tank each time you proc avoid line, or use slip or evade.</div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tiphison wrote: From my understanding, Stay Low should throw me into stealth while in combat so I can use a stealth attack on the target, but in combat it never puts me in stealth.. so what is the purpose of it? Perhaps maybe in a group it might work, I haven't been in a group since I came back and don't remember from before so... Could anyone explain this move to me?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>The main aim of the Stay Low line is to reduce your hate in a group/raid situation. The stealth is a really a secondary effect.</p><p>Stay Low does three things:</p><ol><li>turns off autoattack</li><li>drops your position on the hate list and reduces your threat</li><li>places you in stealth</li></ol><p><font size="1">(Possibly 1 and 2 are reversed, but you can't tell as autoattacks don't go off during CA casts anyway.)</font></p><p>It carries them out in this order because:</p><ol><li>your own autoattack will break your stealth</li><li>placing yourself in stealth alone will not cause a mob to lose target on you</li><li>if you take damage while in stealth, stealth will break</li></ol><p>In a group situation, in order to make sure that the stealth sticks, it turns off your own autoattack and drops your hate first. The lost hate drops you below the tank on the hate list, so that the tank <font size="1">(or whoever else is next on the hate list!)</font> gets aggro. If it placed you in stealth <em>before</em> dropping your hate, the mob would still have you targetted and could potentially swing at you and break the stealth.</p><p>(c) is the problem you're having while soloing. If you take damage while in stealth (or even if the mob swings at you and misses, I believe), the stealth will break. When you're soloing, there is nobody else on the hate list except you, so the hate reduction has no effect -- the mob will keep you targetted and will keep swinging away at you, stealth or no stealth. There's a 0.5s recovery time on Stay Low: if the mob swings during that 0.5s before your stealth attack can fire, stealth will break.</p><p>That's the reason that you need to time the cast carefully (or just be lucky!) Stay Low has a 1.0s cast time but that will <u>not</u> be broken by regular damage. So, when soloing, it's only during that 0.5s recovery time after the cast finishes that you're vulnerable. You want to time it so that the mob hits you <em>during</em> the Stay Low cast (if at all), not during the recovery time before Brazen Thrust fires. (This is basically what ribleteto said above, just wanted to clarify in terms of the mechanics.) </p><p> </p><p>For the record, this skill line used to be be semi-broken because getting hit any time during the <em>cast</em> would cause the stealth to fail automatically, and because the hate loss was conducted <u>after</u> the stealth landed -- if the stealth didn't land, you didn't get the hate loss. So even in a group, if you got aggro and were hit by the mob while trying to cast this skill line, it... did nothing! :smileysad:</p><blockquote><hr>Licit wrote:<div></div>Shadow Slip works fine, I used it a couple times last night<hr></blockquote><p>Ditto, I've noticed no problems with Shadow Slip so far -- though admittedly I haven't been able to do much hunting since LU#20, so I haven't tested much.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Grey-Cat wrote:   Its not so much the not getting into stealth as the failure to reduce my agro thats killing me. I understand that if an auto attack went off it would break steath, but I am still the top of the agro chain and the tank can't even taunt it off.<hr></blockquote><p>Definitely bug it if it's not dropping your aggro. Autoattack should not be an issue, as all stealth abilities automatically switch off autoattack before dropping you into stealth.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>the fluke wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>classcfireworks wrote:<div></div>I always took the term threat position to mean just what it sounds like.  Everyone appears on a mobs hate list, these abilities move you down below whoever is unlucky enough to be next in line.  It also throws a "de-taunt" that lowers the amount of hate that determins your position.  But if the hate reduction isn't enough to keep you below the next toon on the hate list, the mob just turns right back on you.<hr></blockquote>Essentially, we are saying the same thing- that just because you go down a position, doesnt mean you've lost enough hate to loose the mobs focus. My way makes more sense to me, and is how I explain it (a position doesn't necessarily mean from first to second) I think it's easier to visualise if there are more slots than group members, but that's just how I view it.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>It sounds like you're saying slightly different things, and classcfireworks version is the way I've always interpreted it: there aren't set positions on the hate list, only relative positions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.).</p><p> </p><p>Let's say you're in 1st position the tank is in 2nd. You pop shadow slip, it drops you to 2nd position.</p><p>But what is that 2nd position? Well, "1 threat" below the tank would be 2nd position, but that wouldn't really help you because you'd generate that 1 threat in a split second and be back in 1st position again.</p><p>That's why shadow slip also slaps a massive threat reduction on you. You're not just in 2nd position and 1 threat below the tank, you're in 2nd position and 1000 threat below the tank. That's significant, it will take a while to build back up that 1000 threat before you're in top spot again. Heck, if the wizard was trailing only 500 threat behind the tank, you could in fact be in 3rd position.</p><p> </p><p>The reason I think it functions this way -- and not based on set threat positions where you just shift up and down a notch regardless of where other people are at -- is that I have <em>never</em> failed to lose aggro by popping shadow slip (since it was fixed not to fail on getting hit). I can be screaming ahead of the tank in terms of hate generated and I'm guaranteed (from what I've seen), to drop aggro if I use shadow slip. Say I've been off smacking a completely different mob, have it down to half health, and only then bring it back to the group... the tank can hit it a couple of times, then I can pop shadow slip to drop it on the tank, undoing all that hate I generated by slicing half its health away.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Grey-Cat wrote:<span><font color="#ff3300">Exactly, now you understand why I am complaining. I am getting agro from a single mob encounter, that the tank pulled. Its not the tank, since I have been grouping with him since I was like a level 40, and he is an exceptionally good tank.</font></span><hr></blockquote><p>He's not a pally with Amends, is he? Amends and Swarthy Diversion don't play nicely together, basically both effects get cancelled even though the buffs still show. If so, let him use Amends and ignore SD (or put SD on another group member *grin*)</p>