Light Tanks????

[ilucife]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>now im not starting this post b/c i want to be dps, i dont want rogues to be top dps, thats just a nerf invitaion but,when i rolled this class last may i though i was signing up for dps. But recently ive seen ppl in this forum say that we are "light tanks"! now that disturbs me, not becuase its just an opinoin, but is actually kinda true. When the NDA was lifted i waited eagerly to see the new AA's we where to get, as i was sure that we would get some skills to increase our class, ie haste etc(which we did get). but i also see AA's that make us have empty off hands and a another that is a GROUP TAUNT. i cant really understand the reasoning behind make us mini tanks, or why for that case we need more tanks in the game, ecspecially when two classes cant hold agro as it is. rogues in this game are the farthest from any rogue ive ever seen. if fact assassins in this game are more rogue like than us.now before you flame me about being a whiner and a newb to mmo's, realize that i played an eq1 ranger for couple years (release until right before luclin) before they made them uber. For those of you who dont remember or never played eq1, when the game first came out, rangers where druid-warrior hybrids that used a bow to pull and thats about is, they had crap hp, worse stats, and basically just gave the mob one more targed to slap down on its way to the cleric. despite the fact that they where probably the worst class in the game at the time I never once complained, it was the class i wanted to play, eventually(after i stopped playing) they became a top dps class, and i thought that was cool, i was happy for the ones who stuck it out.now im playing a class, that again i want to play, however i really dont like the direction that they are forcing us to go in. rogues sneak around, stab ppl in the back, steal there money, and bed their women. we dont stand infront of a mob, and tank. if some of you are happy with that, thats perfectly fine. i guess ill role play for the first time in my life and say that.... well to be blunt, you can kiss my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. your ruining my class, go play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bruiser!<p>Message Edited by iluciferi on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:00 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by iluciferi on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by iluciferi on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:04 PM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div>I got to admit my take on the whole light tank thing is the same. While I like the idea of a light tank, it practice it's not something sought out by the playerbase at large. It's also a type of character SOE has trasitionally had a bad record at... having said that, Rogues as light tank are suprisingly good as light tanks, so maybe it's something SOE have finally come good at.

[Syrano]

<div></div><p>I spent levels oh... 5 to about 49 as a light tank.  Most of my time was being the tank for a Mystic, Illusionist and Dirge.  We in fact, excel at the light tank role.  How *you* play the game is not the same as how others play the game, you have chosen a class that is a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.  As a result, a wide range of diverse play styles will originate from that class.  We've had a "taunt" since what? Like level 15? </p><p>I should also add that there are no more "rogues".  Only Swashbucklers and Brigands.  The concept of Scout/Rogue has been removed entirely from the game, in part due to misconceptions lilke this. </p><p>The AP points do not prevent you from going a DPS route, 2, maybe even 3 lines are directly geared towards this route.  Just because there is one, possibly 2 lines geared towards allowing swashies to take hits better and get aggro better doesn't mean you can't go more DPS.  Those "light tank" lines will appeal to folks who play swashies with small groups of friends, or solo, and prefer to XP/single group adventure over raiding.  Obviously they'll be of little value to a raiding swashy but the *option* is not such a bad thing.</p><p>Options, choices, are all good things.  One final point, a Swashies (and their Brigand brethren) primary is *not* DPS.  Our primary role is de-buffs (aka Utility).  We happen to do very good DPS in many situations, but your primary job is to use those de-buffs.  As a chain wearing class, you are also designed to be able to take a few hits if you get aggro, but you're not tier 1 dps, so stop fretting so much about "must be dps".  You should be more flabbergasted that only one line really allows us to fufill our *actual* roles on raids better, that of debuffs. </p><p>I know having a *choice* is such a horrible thing.  They should've just given us one AP line that increases our DPS.  That would've been the best thing to do, yep.  /sarcasm.</p>

[Trollb]

<p>"I spent levels oh... 5 to about 49 as a light tank.  Most of my time was being the tank for a Mystic, Illusionist and Dirge.  We in fact, excel at the light tank role. "</p><p>Yeah, and Im the President. My first order of business will be to call Shenanighans on that BS. I will call it the Shenanighan Act.</p><p>Taking the ODD hit with a healer spamming heal, while being able to keep aggro for a few moments... is a skill we have... but just by virtue that our two strongest attacks are flank or back positions dispells any notion that we should be tanking.</p><p>I think in fact, swash is the most gimped rogue in the lot, because we dont have a definite role, and solo the worst of them all.</p><p>But tank? Unless they plan to give us another 20% mitigation along with  giving us upwards of 60 avoid, and taunts that actually work, I dont see us resembling a tank. Sometimes if death is the only alternative okay ill tank, but anytime i delude myself into thinking i am any kind of tank; i lose aggro and get someone killed, or die myself.</p><p>The wisdom AA are just for those swashies that want to use shield and 1h sword perhaps that makes them "feel" like they can "pretend" to be a tank.</p><p>We are second rate dps, with alot of debuffs, once we dont get to use our positionals ... our dps becomes even more of a joke. For that reason, we will never be the kind of "tanks" that even light tanks are; unable to keep aggro, unlikely to reclaim it if lost.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Sabatini]

<div></div><p>Aye I have to agree with Syrano on this one. We're not 'Thieves' we're Swashbucklers. To me a Swashbuckler is a flamboyant adventurer in the spirit of Dartagnan, Dread Pirate Roberts, or nearly anything Erol Flynn played. Facing down enemies with a flashing blade, flashing smile and Witty insults. What could possibly fit that role better than the ability to insult large herds of enemies at once?</p><p>Its the one ability I've always felt I was missing. Especially since the majority of the time the Main Tank has ever gone down in my career, it was always me enemies decided was going to be the replacement, not whatever other tanking class I was grouped with. And more often than not thats usually when I hear compliments. When things go badly we've got alot of abilities to hold things together til the group can recover, or get them out of there if we cant. I've always felt happier in front of the mobs than behind. It's no accident that we have a 'Front stab' and that our AoE moves work better from the front with the enemy surrounding us.</p><p>I've got no problem believing Syrano based on his group. A Mystic's wards will last longer on someone with high avoidance. Illusionist is there to make up for the lack of the aforementioned Area taunt. Dirge makes everyone else perform better. Obviously he's not going to be tanking for a raid, but a small regular group like that? Easy. I've never had trouble holding aggro as long as the group stuck on a single target, and with an Illusionist you'd have double reason to avoid AoEs.</p><p>The main reason I love having someone else be MT/MA is the freedom it gives me to do anything that needs doing. I can dance around the main target using all my positional attacks, and be ready to jump targets to taunt or mez at a moments notice without throwing the rest of the group off.</p><p>What's really nice about the new Achievement system is that you could disagree just about all that I've just said. Your conception could be completely different than mine, and your style of play as well. The Stamina line is obviously designed for Swashies who want to build their Light Tank roles. But thats just one line and no one is forcing you to take it. Other lines will fit your playstyle better. Its a beautiful thing and purposely designed so we aren't all cookie cutters of each other.</p>

[AegisCrown]

<div>Trollboy you really must be kidding.  I too spent a majority of my levels tanking, idistinctly remember tanking my last 3 levels to get to 60.  Be it in silent city or PoF and as it is the only reason i dont tank any t6 mobs is well my lack of ae taunts you get bored doing the same [Removed for Content] over and over. (i have my 1 hander and shield for the expansion do you?) </div><div> </div><div>I was under the impression that razor point was one of our stronger attacks and its frontal/side only. </div><div>and maintaining your debuffs will also help with aggro if you choose to tank.</div><div> </div><div>I also know that in KoS i have an illusionist and templar that i will be tanking for as we enjoy it and can move at a good pace as the other 3 slots are filled by people coming  in and leaving</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>I love swashies as light tank and they seem to do very well at it.  My hubby (swashie) and me (fury) duo all the time and our combo really is great.   My hubby really holds the agro well and I rarely have anything switch to me.  In groups, he often is the MT since  he pulls really well and tends to keep the agro on him.  I really love the swashie and must say that our fury/swashie duo is probably the most fun we've had with any character combos.</p><p>When we form groups, some of our dilemna is whether we should really invite a "traditional" tank.  Our gaming style is to pull quickly and fight quickly.  It is really frustrating to get a "traditional" tank into the group who doesn't know what to do or what to pull.  Or a tank who stands there for a minutes between every pull.  My hubby walks a fine line.  Do you let the "tank" continue to do their thing or have the swashie volunteer to tank?   We usually let the traditional tank do their thing but lately, we've had pretty bad luck and have been tempted to let the traditional tank be MA and the swashie be MT.  I love it when you have a traditional tank playing really well.  But grrrrr, I am coming to find that there are many out there who should not be playing Zerkers, Guardians, etc. </p><p>I love you guys and I love the class!!!!</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Syrano]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr><p>Yeah, and Im the President. My first order of business will be to call Shenanighans on that BS. I will call it the Shenanighan Act.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow, I think I jsut flashed back to the first month of retail launch.  Someone called Shenanighans on me then.  In fact, I took *so* much flack for my claims in PM's and actual in game tells I was driven to provide some proof.  You may watch it here:</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://www.og-log.com/images/Movie_0003.wmv">Tanking an Orange in the mid-game</a></p><div><a target="_blank" href="http://www.og-log.com/images/RunnyeyeArmorer.wmv">Tanking the Runnyeye Armorer</a> (Yes and screwing up)</div><div>Granted these are both before LU#13 where we became even better tanks with a great defensive stance etc.  It has only gotten easier with all the great gear available now as well.</div><div> </div><div>We can be group tanks for anything yellow heroic and under with ease.  I have grouped with Templar's, Warden's, Fury's, Inquisitors and Mystics as the main healer.  And we're talking only ONE healer.  I have done it with and without the illusionist.  I won't deny that Mystic + Illusionist is my prefered set up.  Illusionists eliminate the risk of adds and aggro management on multiple mobs (our biggest failing in the tank role).  Mystics healing style which is heavy ward based fits with us, as we are mostly avoidance tanks.  But all combinations are possible for great returns  when it comes to doing quests and getting group XP.  </div><div> </div><div>Named mobs provide some exceptions but it's a case by case basis really.  But for you to call shenanigans just means you've never really tried with a competant group willing to take risks.</div><div> </div><div>*shrug* I enjoy taking risks, it's fun.  And I abhor waiting around for a "perfect" group.  Perhaps that's why I love my swashy so much.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Syrano on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:41 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Syrano on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:43 AM</span></p>

[Suta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Syrano wrote:<div></div><p>The concept of Scout/Rogue has been removed entirely from the game, in part due to misconceptions lilke this. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Not true.  When you examine item drops it still says "Scout/Fighters" etc.   When you start a new char you pick from the lists to the right of the Archtypes: Scout, Fighter, Mage, Priest.</p><p>Just because we are don't carry those names over our heads anymore doesn't mean it doesn't exit.</p><p>But yeah I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said %100</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[ilucife]

as said before...if ypu want to tank go play a bruiser, and stop screwing this class more. quit accepting the fact that soe is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. if we "are" a dps class then why the hell is there even the slightest ability to tank? i can already predict your response....1)"swashies are utility"-im not even going to get started on this again2)"we have a tuant, why shouldnt we tank?"-yeah SK's have a tuant to, but guess what, it doesnt work(ever seen a SK tank on raids). they also have HT...does that make them dps? we have ONE tuant, just one, get in a group with some REAL dps classes and try to hold agro.3)"b.s. about how we are a jack of all trades"-yeah actually that is marginally true....and its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing lame. you basically prove the point that our class has no class defining abitlity what so ever! what skills we do have are mediocre.4)"But we are utiltity, we can do everything"- see above.5)"there are no more rouges in the game, there are no more thieves"?!?!? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] its it obvious day at camp stupid? our first AA is pickpocket, its a freaking abiltiy to steal money, they took the SUB CLASS rogue out of the game-we are still rogues. thats like saying presidnt bush isnt going to be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when he leaves office!6)"But ive tanked before"- freaking good for you, so have i, want to know why? i was absorbing hits for my lvl 59(i was lvl 60) ranger friend while he dropped mobs pretty much by himself. i usually lived, but had like 200 hp left. thats was loads of fun, but as i said eh was a friend, ill do about anything for a friend. get in a dps group and tank!7)"ive tanked in a group with a fury and a illusionist"- so that means at most(if the illusionist was doing there job) you where fighting one mob at a time, with someone casting wards on you chain healing AND dotting. Wards dont count as tanking(at least in my opinion), why? b/c its a beneifical spell cast by someone else(i can hear it now...blah blah blah tell that to a gaurdian) its like saying a tank is dps b/c they are doing dmg with porcupine. tell you what, take a video of you tanking a heroic ^^^ mob with out a ward, then ill be impressed. Real tanks cant last long against that, and they have twice as many hp and ALOT more mit. hell i can tank the keeper of silence with 5 healers.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"avoidance"-yeah we do have this, with a bard you can get well over 50%, guess what, your dps drops and you basically soak up dmg, thats awesome, sign me up for that. ill just delete the 4 back attacks i have.9)"i can steal agro anytime i want from a tank"- exactly!,(and it doesnt make you a tank) and they have several taunts, some generate hate EVERY time they are hit. if <b>I</b><i><b></b></i> can steal agro from them, and not try, do you honestly think that you are going to keep agro from a wizzie and a ranger, hell even a brig?like i said if you dont like my opinion and think im wrong, thats perfectly fine. im i saying my playing style is 100% correct, no. but i do know that im tired of us being the crappy class we are.if your content in being a jack at all trades, fine go work at McDonalds, you can learn to be a chef, a customer service rep, and a janitor. but i doubt anyone here is eager to jump on that bad wagon too!and i just have to throw this out there.................... chuck norris is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bag, hes a crappy actor with a mullet, there is a reason he stopped making movies and started selling exercise equip.

[ilucife]

syrano, dude those are some cool movies and all, but i dont think they are really realavent here.at lvl 16 i could kill reds and really high oranges, orangne mobs post lu 13 avoid resists, mit etc, plus are hard as hell to hit, they would slap ya down with ease.

[AegisCrown]

<div></div>iluciferi take the stick that is shoved so far up your [Removed for Content] out, we are designed to be a light tank and always have been.  if you dont like roll up another toon and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in their forumns we dont care about your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and moaning.

[Sabatini]

<div></div><p>Let me throw this right back at you. If you wanted to be a focused DPS class why dont you just go play one? Sounds like Ranger or Wizard is what you're looking for. You picked a versatile class not a focused one. Is that our fault? Most of us picked the class to be versatile. And there are plenty of Swashbucklers that use their versatility as a strength not a handicap, and use it to full advantage.</p><p>If you're the one not content being a jack of all trades, well quite frankly you chose wrong at the character creation screen. But since you didnt, we'll all adapt to your narrow playstyle that allows no room for variety. I have been convinced! :smileywink:</p>

[AegisCrown]

<div></div><div>this just in by iluciferi</div><div> </div><div><span><strong>really?</strong></span><p>figured i would send you a message so it wasnt edited[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] youyou are one of the [Removed for Content] that [Removed for Content] me offwe have never been light tanks, we are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing dps</p><p> </p><p>yeah again go play a focused dps you piece of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], we honestly dont care that you choose the wrong type of class for what you are looking for</p><p> </p><p> </p></div>

[Debunkt]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>iluciferi wrote:as said before...if ypu want to tank go play a bruiser, and stop screwing this class more. quit accepting the fact that soe is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. if we "are" a dps class then why the hell is there even the slightest ability to tank? i can already predict your response....[blah blah I hate my class 'cuz...]<hr><p>Dude, I know someone who cares and feels the same... you two should meet.</p><p> </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://www.angelfire.com/freak/marmalade/images/orly.jpg"></p><p>A self hating swash is most unbecoming... how do you get the ladies!?</p>

[mayhem111]

<div></div><div>Well we can tank 3 ups with a healer.  Was in pof ther other day with a group getting together to do some instances.  Myself (60 swash) and inquisitor (57) were killing 3 up cyclops pretty easy.   Well until got another 3 up add, we were still fine.  Then the 3rd 3 up added almost had the 2nd 3 up dead (5-10% left) before I dropped and the inquis shortly after.  With a healer and me in def stance duel wielding we duoed 2 almost 3 3 ups at once.</div>

[Syrano]

<div></div><p>"syrano, dude those are some cool movies and all, but i dont think they are really realavent here."</p><p>Heh, yea, okay.  If I showed you video of me taking heroic triple ups at level 60 you'd just tell me to go get you video of me tanking an epic.  You're missing the point, for reference that video in runnyeye is me tanking an orange, what was at the time an equivalent of a heroic triple up.  And yes, it was pwning me, but I lived.  Then you say do it without a Ward based healer, arguing that one of the most efficient healing techniques in the game is not a healing technique. </p><p>It's folks like you that pidgeon hole roles into such narrow categories that spend more time ruining diversity in MMO's.  There is more to EQ2 then heal rates and DPS equations.  However, you are entitled to play the game your way because, thankfully, the game allows it an numerous other forms of play.</p><p> </p><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>iluciferi wrote:as said before...if ypu want to tank go play a bruiser, and stop screwing this class more. quit accepting the fact that soe is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. if we "are" a dps class then why the hell is there even the slightest ability to tank? i can already predict your response....</p><p><font color="#ff6600">We aren't a "DPS" class, we are a utility class whose primary role is to de-buff.  DPS is a bonus for us, and its quite good.  So is our ability to tank single mobs, and with AP points, soon the ability to do well against group mobs in non-raid situations. If we were a DPS class we'd be tier 1 DPS... oh wait, but that's what Rangers/Assasin/Wizard/Warlocks are for.</font>2)"we have a tuant, why shouldnt we tank?"-yeah SK's have a tuant to, but guess what, it doesnt work(ever seen a SK tank on raids). they also have HT...does that make them dps? we have ONE tuant, just one, get in a group with some REAL dps classes and try to hold agro.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Yes I have seen an SK tank on raids, but then I play with people who prefer to solve problems with the tools they have available and not hose themselves into one narrow way of viewing the game.  SK's can tank just fine, they have plenty of ways of building aggro, in the hands of the right player. However, I never said Swashies can tank on raids, they can't.  But that would require you to read my whole post, something in your state of mind your clearly not inclined to do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p>3)"b.s. about how we are a jack of all trades"-yeah actually that is marginally true....and its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing lame. you basically prove the point that our class has no class defining abitlity what so ever! what skills we do have are mediocre.</p><p><font color="#ff3300">If you dislike playing a jack of all trades class, might I suggest one of the might fine other scout alternatives?  Rangers or Assasin's both seem to fit the bill and have viable approaches.</font></p><p>5)"there are no more rouges in the game, there are no more thieves"?!?!? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] its it obvious day at camp stupid? our first AA is pickpocket, its a freaking abiltiy to steal money, they took the SUB CLASS rogue out of the game-we are still rogues. thats like saying presidnt bush isnt going to be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when he leaves office!</p><p><font color="#ff3300">Because it would be soooo unlike a "Swashbuckler" or "Brigand" to know a thing or two about picking pockets thematically.</font>6)"But ive tanked before"- freaking good for you, so have i, want to know why? i was absorbing hits for my lvl 59(i was lvl 60) ranger friend while he dropped mobs pretty much by himself. i usually lived, but had like 200 hp left. thats was loads of fun, but as i said eh was a friend, ill do about anything for a friend. get in a dps group and tank!</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Actually, a DPS group would be ideal for us.  The long drawn out fight is where our lack of full mitigation really starts to weigh down on the healers.  But a high DPS group killing mobs fast almost makes who is tanking irrelevant.  In fact, I've seen a Warlock tank yellow con heroic triple ups in a DPS group that had only one healer that I was in.  Didn't even bother tanking the mobs dropped so fast.  True swashy tanking at least requires a marginal challenge, as in the mob living for more than a few seconds.</font></p><p><font color="#ff6600">As for absorbing hits for your friend, spare me, that's not what we're talking about here.  If you're incapable of building an adventure group that uses a swashy as a tank and can tackle content equal to or above your level, you really don't understand the game very well at the single group level.</font>7)"ive tanked in a group with a fury and a illusionist"- so that means at most(if the illusionist was doing there job) you where fighting one mob at a time, with someone casting wards on you chain healing AND dotting. Wards dont count as tanking(at least in my opinion), why? b/c its a beneifical spell cast by someone else(i can hear it now...blah blah blah tell that to a gaurdian) its like saying a tank is dps b/c they are doing dmg with porcupine. tell you what, take a video of you tanking a heroic ^^^ mob with out a ward, then ill be impressed. Real tanks cant last long against that, and they have twice as many hp and ALOT more mit. hell i can tank the keeper of silence with 5 healers.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Real tanks can't last long against a heroic triple up?  Excuse me? I duo'd giants/cyclops at 58/59/60 with a pally friend.  He's a real tank, didn't even need a healer (he did just fine).  Heroic Triple-up mobs are a cake walk to tank for a real tank.  Real tanks are built to tank epic mobs, heroic mobs they tend to laugh at. Swashy's don't last long against heroic triple ups I'll agree to that, but with a healer and some buffs, there really are zero issues.  No, it's not an ideal group, no it doesn't go as fast as having an ideal group might, but it's faster than having no group.  Significantly faster.</font><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"avoidance"-yeah we do have this, with a bard you can get well over 50%, guess what, your dps drops and you basically soak up dmg, thats awesome, sign me up for that. ill just delete the 4 back attacks i have.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">You can get to just under %50 avoidance AND mitigation in defensive stance, over %50 avoidance if you use a round shield. Yes, you sacrifice DPS but duh, because you're becoming the tank.  However, even so, our DPS is *still* better than a regular tanks even if we are defensive (amazing how our debuffs make that work).  Worried about your back attacks?  really?  You know how a stun works right?  Just checking, if I actually have need of my back attacks while tanking (usually in three man groups, or duo'ing), they are there and can be used.  That however takes some creativity.</font>9)"i can steal agro anytime i want from a tank"- exactly!,(and it doesnt make you a tank) and they have several taunts, some generate hate EVERY time they are hit. if <b>I</b><i><b></b></i> can steal agro from them, and not try, do you honestly think that you are going to keep agro from a wizzie and a ranger, hell even a brig?</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Honestly? Yes. I can keep aggro, does  it require the group to do something more than mash buttons? Yes.  It requires them to pay attention and play the game.  I can keep aggro off of wizzies and warlocks against single mobs no problem.  We have lots of ways to build aggro quickly.  Rangers are a challenge and brigands compete with us easy, but then, brigands can take hits almost as well as us so if I'm in such a group it's not a big deal.  In fact, if you watch that Runnyeye Armorer video, you'll see that aggro transfer and shared tanking between me and Troubador was a complete valid and successful means of finishing the encounter.  </font></p><p><font color="#ff6600">Seriously if the only way for someone like you to play is to button mash and go balls out like a burn call on a raid, then there really is no help for you.  Go find a tank, hope they can hold aggro, and stand behind the mob and be happy.  That option is available to you, but you would probably be happier with another class.</font> </p><p>like i said if you dont like my opinion and think im wrong, thats perfectly fine. im i saying my playing style is 100% correct, no. but i do know that im tired of us being the crappy class we are.See the difference between me and you here is that I consider your play style valid.  I think you ran into a situation where you have chosen a class that is capable of more than just your play style, and there are other classes that excel better at your style.  I don't begrudge you for wishing you were one of those other classes, would just prefer you not insist your way is the only way.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">The fact that you are a swashy and call yourself a crappy class bothers me the most, but you're entitled to your opinion and there are always class haters around.  I provide a counter-point, so anyone else on the fence can read both points of view and decide for themselves.</font></p><p>if your content in being a jack at all trades, fine go work at McDonalds, you can learn to be a chef, a customer service rep, and a janitor. but i doubt anyone here is eager to jump on that bad wagon too!</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Far more content being a jack of all trades then having someone turn us into just another ranger or assasin.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>In conclusion, ladies and gentleman we have an ideal candidate to lead our Roll a Ranger campaign right here.</p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>iluciferi wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>when i rolled this class last may i though i was signing up for dps. But recently ive seen ppl in this forum say that we are "light tanks"! now that disturbs me, not becuase its just an opinoin, but is actually kinda true.</p><p>...</p><p>rogues in this game are the farthest from any rogue ive ever seen. if fact assassins in this game are more rogue like than us.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Apparently you came into the game with your own preconceptions of what a "rogue" is and should be, probably based on other games. There's your mistake. EQ2 rogues have always been a mix of DPS and very varied utility -- from crowd control to tanking to debuffing to sneaking. At no point has SOE said they would be strictly DPS, as they were in EQ1, and from day 1 their skillsets have reflected that. Heck, EQ1 rogues <em>would</em> have been a better mix of utility and DPS had SOE actually figured out how to incorporate their utility into the game mechanics without making them completely indispensible. As it was, they couldn't figure it out, gave up, and just gave EQ1 rogues a buttload of DPS to compensate... leaving them with a bunch of almost (or utterly) useless, vestigial skills. Really, SOE finally got their original DPS/utility vision for rogues correct in EQ2 after getting it wrong in EQ1, not vice versa.</p><p>Just because rogues happen to share the same name as classes in other games doesn't mean they'll be identical. Yes, in most games rogues are thieves and assassins, based around sneaking and high damage attacks, but that's just one very narrow interpretation. EQ2 has a much broader selection of classes than most games, allowing them to break down the generic "rogue" concept into several distinct subclasses.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>now im playing a class, that again i want to play, however i really dont like the direction that they are forcing us to go in.<hr></blockquote><div>I'm not sure if you really are playing a <em>class</em> that you want to play, so much as playing the class <em>name </em>you want to play. We've always been optional light tanks (though far less so after the AGI nerf in January last year up to the DoF revamp) and that's exactly what we're staying. The STA AAs represent just one branch out of 5: there are 4 other branches dedicated to debuffing, DPSing, sneaking, whichever aspect you want to explore. But if you thought you were signing up for a pure DPS class originally, you were mistaken from the start.</div><div> </div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Trollboy wrote:<p>I think in fact, swash is the most gimped rogue in the lot, because we dont have a definite role, and solo the worst of them all.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Of the lot? Of them all? All... two of them...</p><p>No, we solo just fine, and we also have great functionality in groups. If you're looking for a single, distinct character role, play a templar or a ranger -- heals, DPS, practically nothing else. Rogues aren't meant to be that one-dimensional. Just because they don't excel in one particular area doesn't mean their skills aren't valuable. Just because we have an array of different functions doesn't mean you can only employ one of those functions at a time with sub-par effectiveness. That's the whole fun of playing a rogue -- playing several different roles simultaneously, fulfilling all your functions in group to maximise your effectiveness. If you're just standing there DPSing and paying attention to nothing else, you're wasting your time: play a ranger, assassin, or other "dedicated" function class that will perform that single function twice as well.</p><p>I don't like to tank much because it's simply something I don't really enjoy, but I do like that our flexibility is there for emergencies. And if you think we <em>can't</em> tank ... you won't be facing down any Epicx4s any time soon, but other than that you'd be surprised if you tried it. Contrary to popular belief, our defensive stance <em>does </em>have a function.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>iluciferi wrote:3)"b.s. about how we are a jack of all trades"-yeah actually that is marginally true....and its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing lame. you basically prove the point that our class has no class defining abitlity what so ever! what skills we do have are mediocre.<hr></blockquote><p>Nail on the head. You're exactly right. We don't debuff as well as other debuffers, we don't DPS as well as the DPSers, we don't tank like the tanks or CC like the enchanters, but we <strong><u>do</u></strong> all those things, which is more than any other class. And if you're able to do each of those things well -- more than one at a time -- you'll realise swashbucklers are actually a very powerful subclass. If you want a class defining ability and uber "best of the best" skills, look for another class. It seriously sounds like you're playing the wrong subclass, because rogues are really not what you're looking for.</p><p> </p><p><font size="1">Edit: missing words do not a good post make</font></p><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:56 AM</span></p>

[Luk]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>iluciferi wrote:2)"we have a tuant, why shouldnt we tank?"-yeah SK's have a tuant to, but guess what, it doesnt work<strong>(ever seen a SK tank on raids).</strong> they also have HT...does that make them dps? we have ONE tuant, just one, get in a group with some REAL dps classes and try to hold agro.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Yes, and he did a bloody fine job at it too.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">oh, and btw, before LU#13, I tanked a raid too, this proves nothing, I didn't do it by choice, it just happened, I was in the MT group for group invis, MT went down, I started tanking the mob, got the buffs and finished the fight as MT.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Licit on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:08 AM</span></p>

[ophidius]

<div></div>I think my fellow Rogues above me here have covered it pretty well. These ideas are nothing new for anyone who's played a Rogue since launch. If you're looking for a melee damage roll, you'll likely be much happier as an Assassin. That's not intended as an insult, and I don't think anyone else meant to insult you when they said you were playing the wrong class, but the fact of the matter is, you are.It seems like everything you have against Swashbucklers is everything that sets them apart from the Predators. Unless you're thinking of moving to a PvP server anytime soon where faction will make a difference, maybe give Assassin a try. The beauty of removing the archtype system is that you can get a good enough feel for a class by the time you're done with the newbie island to decide if you're in the right place. Either you'll find a new home, or you might earn a new appreciation for your current class's abilities. It can't hurt.<div></div>

[Luk]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ophidius wrote:<div></div>I think my fellow Rogues above me here have covered it pretty well. These ideas are nothing new for anyone who's played a Rogue since launch. If you're looking for a melee damage roll, you'll likely be much happier as an Assassin. That's not intended as an insult, and I don't think anyone else meant to insult you when they said you were playing the wrong class, but the fact of the matter is, you are.It seems like everything you have against Swashbucklers is everything that sets them apart from the Predators. Unless you're thinking of moving to a PvP server anytime soon where faction will make a difference, maybe give Assassin a try. The beauty of removing the archtype system is that you can get a good enough feel for a class by the time you're done with the newbie island to decide if you're in the right place. Either you'll find a new home, or you might earn a new appreciation for your current class's abilities. It can't hurt.<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">Bugger, such words of wisdom from a Brigand, who gave you an overdose of smart pills this morning :smileyvery-happy:</font><p>Message Edited by Licit on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:48 PM</span></p>

[ophidius]

I stole them. D'uh. <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[SageGaspar]

1. Holding aggro is trivial with a Swash. Go all out and there's very little in the game that will pull aggro off of you.2. Between Cheap Shot and the Swathe line, you have two knockdown/stuns. No reason that you can't be using positionals except laziness, and yes, they both work on heroics (cheap shot gets a *little* bit tougher, but it's a skill you should have picked up already).3. I've had brawlers drop out and outtanked them on yellow heroics in the Living Tombs. A lot of it comes down to your personal ability, though a well-played brawler will outtank a swashy of course. I'd say some previous tanking experience would definitely come in handy. Tanking in EQ2 is 99% having someone who's able to pull well and hold aggro, 1% having a class that can take damage well.<div></div>

[Trollb]

<div></div><p>"Heh, yea, okay.  If I showed you video of me taking heroic triple ups at level 60 you'd just tell me to go get you video of me tanking an epic.  You're missing the point, for reference that video in runnyeye is me tanking an orange, what was at the time an equivalent of a heroic triple up."</p><p>As president I am not only enforcing the shenanighan act, but raising the pentultimate BS flag.</p><p>I cant even HIT oranges(non-heroics) in many cases (parry parry parry) how exactly would it be that we can hold aggro in such a case? I cant even dps in those fights. Then there is the LOSS of aggro issue, Gibe is just substandard for stealing aggro. The only aggro management that actually works is our "lie low" line that de-aggros in the rare case that we dps and do too much aggro.</p><p>So my main issues of contention with your claims of light tank are thus;</p><p>1. our aggro management skills are THERE, they just dont work effectively enough. Lets face it; if you HAVE TO use your aggro management, it means things are screwed up, having the skill then NOT WORK, just highlights this classes main weakness. The tools we have to do the job are too cheap to get it done when the chips are down.</p><p>Anytime i fool myself into thinking otherwise, i get corrected by having my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handed to me in a king sized ziplock bag.</p><p>2. our avoidance and mitigation are just substandard; more than 10% difference and alot lower hp than tanks means we get into a bad situation REALLY fast.</p><p>3. our positionals are so useful from behind that putting us in a role other than dps is kind of a wasted slot.</p><p>4. your video is during a time when we were higher dps and thus didnt need to even use gibe to pull aggro.</p><p>So while i dont deny we can tank in a pinch or an emergency; anytime there is something like a heroic yellow involved, or higher i will gladly pass or go home.</p>

[Trollb]

<div></div><p>"1. Holding aggro is trivial with a Swash. Go all out and there's very little in the game that will pull aggro off of you.2. Between Cheap Shot and the Swathe line, you have two knockdown/stuns. No reason that you can't be using positionals except laziness, and yes, they both work on heroics (cheap shot gets a *little* bit tougher, but it's a skill you should have picked up already).3. I've had brawlers drop out and outtanked them on yellow heroics in the Living Tombs. A lot of it comes down to your personal ability, though a well-played brawler will outtank a swashy of course. I'd say some previous tanking experience would definitely come in handy. Tanking in EQ2 is 99% having someone who's able to pull well and hold aggro, 1% having a class that can take damage well."</p><p>1. Hmm, I do decent dps, and rarely pull the aggro you are talking about. I guess i could try it more and see. As of this moment though, my experiences in game lead me to believe... not only is our aggro pulling inconsistent, but that our "taunt" ability is a sham.</p><p>Consistency is what makes or breaks it really. If our gibe worked consistently, and our ability to not die while tanking worked consistently... I would do it more. But we are talking about a choice here; annoying my healer in game by trying to be a tank i am not... or annoying you guys by telling you that we are not tanks. I would prefer not to annoy my healer. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>2. Jumping around alot often gets my group unwanted aggro, especially in those tight places. But that happens whether im main tank or not. Swathe too, also gets unwanted aggro... and alot of times whether you are tanking or not, you cant choose the perfect spot to fight.</p><p>3. Yes, tanking after someone died is great, but usually by then the mob is nearly dead... a fact for which i am thankful.</p><p> </p>

[ilucife]

<div></div>well i guess there is only one person that agrees with me. thats fine, im used to that. it really doesnt bother me. did i sign up for the wrong class? i dont believe so. i wanted to play a rogue, and thats what ill be. granted i went by just the name, in know now (and have since about lvl 30, and reinforced over the last few weeks) that assassins fit the rogue mold more than actual rogues in this game. thing is ive been playing this class for about 8 months. if we are light tanks, then why did we have to sneak through our lvl 18 class quest?(granted its not in the game, but at the time i choose my char it was) sneaking around and stealing stuff and stabbing mobs in the back is my idea of a rogue. tanking a mob is not. as trollboy pointed out we have situational attacks for a reason. does eq2 break the mold in reference to classes? yup, but i would argue that its not for the better.realistically however alot of you are going to go to that other game when in comes out(as am i) and try to tank as a rogue and get the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked out of you. hopefully i can be there to watch, and i will laugh and call you a dumb [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. in eq2 however apperently i am wrong. the thing is we can go around about this all day, but frankly im not going to. i have my opinion that anyone who thinks we are supposed to belight tanks is wrong. if you dont agree with that, fine. i really give two [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.i also believe that you are missing my point. maybe we are light tanks, fine. but why, why is a class that has primarily flanking attacks able to tank and not do more dps. i would argue that our class requires more skill than any other(with positioning and what have you) yet we get shafted on dps. now dont take me as saying i want to solo every epic mob in the game(i just think we should be at the top of t2 dps), but honestly, we are kinda sub par on the dps.anyways i have a thesis to finish so im done with this, but two things before i go however.1)what the hell was the owl about, i really dont get it2)aegis you can still go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] yourself,(i think you get the idea even though its edited)<p>Message Edited by iluciferi on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:20 AM</span></p>

[VegasLife]

<div></div><p>I have a 60 Swash and I spent quite a bit of time tanking for groups, especially in out of the way or hard to reach zones (CT, Permafrost).  Sometimes it took a little bit of time to get the group used to it, but I did fine.  I wasn't spectacular, but the group didn't have to break up and most times I tanked until a "traditional" tank showed up on /lfg.</p><p>One cool thing is that I'm leveling my Defiler, I have no problem dropping a Swash / Brigand into the role of MT.  I will admit that 99% of the time they are in shock.  Here's the conversation:</p><p>Wizard - "Who will be our tank?"</p><p>Me - "The Swash can do it."</p><p>Entire Group - "Whaaaat?"</p><p>Me - "Go pull something."</p><p>Swash - *Runs off to get a mob*</p><p>Rest of Group - *gets behind me*</p><p>-The mob dies, the Swash takes damage, but the world isn't over.</p><p>Rest of Group - *sighs in relief*</p><p>Swash - "Awesome!"</p><p>Me - "Alright, let's get moving again."</p><p>Over the weekend, I had a group that ran all over CT with a 47 Brigand as the MT.  It wasn't optimal per se but we made it work.  Walked around the entire bottomside of CT, but did not go to Sanctum.  I was a little worried about being able to handle burst damage, and using up lots of power.  There were a few times when I had to pop my emergency wards, and I know that if something does aggro on me that it I have to endure till they group gets to it versus expecting the tank to taunt it off.</p><p>Over the course of the group, I was able to add in a dirge and illusionist so my power issues were "okay".  Swash MTs do use up tons of power.  Also, I know that I focused on top-notch weaponry and stat items versus mitigation / AGI so Swash/Brigand mitigation is not always the best it can be.</p><p>Anyway, every time I get a chance to use a Swash/Brigand as MT, I do it because I want to do a little part to try and change the perceptions that a plate tank is the only way to go.  It's an awesome feeling to see the Swash/Brigand MT take to the role of MT and lead the group as they gain confidence and realize that they aren't going to die (much).</p>

[wr4ithd0]

<div>I tank all the time.  I don't prefer to, but I can without much of a problem.  Even got a shield and everything. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Trollb]

<div>"Over the weekend, I had a group that ran all over CT with a 47 Brigand as the MT."</div><div> </div><div>As a 41 swash, im like a 4 second death CT once i start taking hits; defensive stance or not lol. Yellow heroics is all they are, but no doubt about it, i would drop like a wet sack of potatoes, defensive stance or not. Thats just yellow heroics as off tank accidental aggro; they have me on the ropes barely in time for the healer to save me.</div><div> </div><div>Then lavastorm just orange non heroic gobs i cant even touch even with my best styles. Parry parry parry.</div><div> </div><div>So while all you guys are giving hopeful talk, myself in game even with all legendary 40 armor, am just not seeing the tank thing go on. Unless we are fighting sub-par mobs to begin with. And considering im at 41, my gear is at the most optimal its gonna be until 50.</div><div> </div><div>Plus the times ive used gibe to save people, it just didnt work well... iffy at best, deadly at worst.</div>

[Syrano]

<hr width="100%" size="2">i also believe that you are missing my point. maybe we are light tanks, fine. but why, why is a class that has primarily flanking attacks able to tank and not do more dps. i would argue that our class requires more skill than any other(with positioning and what have you) yet we get shafted on dps.<hr width="100%" size="2">What do you mean we get shafted on DPS?  On my raids into Gates and Al'afaz I'm always in the top 10 and frequently in the top 5, occaisionally 2nd or 3rd on DPS.  We usually have 3 rangers, a brigand and others with us.  I am incredibly happy with my DPS, it's quite good.  On these raids I average 300-500 DPS.  In single groups I can pull down almost 600 dps just out XP'ing if the group makeup is good.  Duo'ing with a Pally I still pull 300-400 dps.  These are *very* respectable numbers at 60 given that we are tier 2/3 DPS.  In AE fights I can pull upwards of 1kdps (though that's nothing compared to others).Given all of our de-buffing power we have tremendous DPS.  And given that our primary role is de-buffs, not DPS, that's very suprising.   If you want more DPS than top 5 out of 24 you're going to need to look solely at Rangers or Warlocks or, for a slight edge, Brigands.But you are missing a serious point, we are *not* light tanks, but we *can* be light tanks if we choose to be.  Part of the equation is gear.  Most of it is player skilsset.<span><blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>"Over the weekend, I had a group that ran all over CT with a 47 Brigand as the MT."</div><div> </div><div>As a 41 swash, im like a 4 second death CT once i start taking hits; defensive stance or not lol. Yellow heroics is all they are, but no doubt about it, i would drop like a wet sack of potatoes, defensive stance or not. Thats just yellow heroics as off tank accidental aggro; they have me on the ropes barely in time for the healer to save me.</div><div> </div><div>Then lavastorm just orange non heroic gobs i cant even touch even with my best styles. Parry parry parry.</div><div> </div><div>So while all you guys are giving hopeful talk, myself in game even with all legendary 40 armor, am just not seeing the tank thing go on. Unless we are fighting sub-par mobs to begin with. And considering im at 41, my gear is at the most optimal its gonna be until 50.</div><hr></blockquote></span>Note, he said a level 47 Brigand as MT.  You're level 41.   Of course you can't tank the same mobs.  The same problem exists with real tanks, a level 47 guardian can tank a helluva lot more than a level 41 can.   6 Levels is a HUGE gap.As for it being hopeful talk, I ask you this.  If many of us post positive experiences, even video proof, of our ability to tank, yet you cannot tank, is that hopeful talk on our part, or something you're missing on your part?<div></div>

[Raveller]

<div></div><p>I wouldn't call us tanks of any kind, more like Fighters. I don't mean Fighters in the borked up misguided concept that SOE uses in all of it's games, where the 'fighter' class is mainly about holding aggro (supposedly) but doesn't seem to do much in the way of fighting. (Really wish online game companies could think beyond the tank-healer-dps trinity. Guess they just find it real easy to copy/paste code.)</p><p>Anyway, I find that the Swashbuckler class comes closest to allowing me to play a Fighter the way I used to play a Fighter in AD&D, only with some Thief stuff thrown in. I can do damage, I can withstand damage (not as well as the EQ2 'fighter' types), I can sneak around and disarm traps. If I didn't have to use poison and if fewer CAs were positional, it would be perfect. Oh, and Escape. Gotta love that.</p>

[ophidius]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Syrano wrote:Note, he said a level 47 Brigand as MT.  You're level 41.   Of course you can't tank the same mobs.  The same problem exists with real tanks, a level 47 guardian can tank a helluva lot more than a level 41 can.   6 Levels is a HUGE gap.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Pfft. Everyone knows that any random 20 Brigand could manage the same as the best 41 Swashbuckler so there goes... Whoops. Smart pills wearing off! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></div>