Swash or zerker I cant decide

[CustosL]

<div><div><div>I played the game at release and after several months realized I was going to get bored without pvp.  So now with the implementation of pvp coming I am going to come back.</div><div> </div><div>I will soon be forced to play on dialup so a primary healer class or primary tank class is probably out of the question.  I tend to have to solo a lot but would also like to still get groups so I dont want a totally group dependant or totally solo and impossible to get group class.  I tend to play melee but lately have been liking mages more but tend to like more gear dependant classes.  Not sure how gear dependant mages are.  I like it when a mages weapon affects dmg more than just form stat adds but realize that eq2 doesnt have that but oh well. </div><div> </div><div>Anyways I am not asking whats the best class or what will be the best.  I just want a class that fits me that will be good for pve solo and grouping and also up to this point isnt known to be [Removed for Content] in what pvp has been exposed in beta.  Thanks for any input ahead of time and if you have multiple suggestions I will take all the info I can get just want some more experienced opinions.  Also if you have any questions that might help you narrow it down some more ask away.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also forgot to add I want the class to be fun and engaging dont want a spam the same skill/spell over and over.  Some utility would be nice too and not just pure one or the other.</div></div></div>

[SageGaspar]

I don't think a zerker is very high on the utility unless it's changed recently, I think some HP buffs and maybe one or two debuffs attached to attacks. They do pretty good AE damage, but most of the time groups want them to be MTs. Given the choice between a Swash and a Zerker when we already have an MT, I'd pick the swash.However, I bet zerkers are easier to solo with, though I haven't played mine since after the combat changes. They're also easier, in the sense that swashes have to worry about buying and applying poisons, using stuns, and getting set for positional attacks, plus they're a lot more squishy.I'd roll both and give them a shot up to 20 just to get an idea about their general styles. Bear in mind, not sure if you heard this just coming back, the big PvP is only going to be on special PvP servers that haven't launched yet.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><p>If its for PVP make neither toon , Healers own PVP nearly impossible to beat them. </p><p>Comparing a zerker to a swashie is not the best thing to do as they are two totally different styles of play :-</p><p> </p><p>Zerker - Main Tank (pretty much best tank style in the game atm TBH) and ummm well .... hmmm nope just Main Tank would be it</p><p> </p><p>Swashie - Mez , Invis , Evac , Debuff etc etc . Playing a swash is a lot harder than a tank who just uses taunt 99 % of the time (and yes i have a brusier so i do tank !)</p><p>it all comes down to you , choose the type you enjoy playing as the previous poster said roll both and see which you prefer and most of all have fun doing it !</p>

[CustosL]

<div></div>Yeah I am waiting to reactivate till pvp servers go live just debating on a class to pick now.  I thought about playing a fury or a defiler but only problem is I dont want to get into the situation of being considered a heal bot in groups.

[ilucife]

<div></div>pvp is going to work on different rules than pve, so one cant really compare the twoimho.... dont pick a class in pvp purely on dps #'s if you plan on joining a guild or raiding. i am almost willing to bet 2/3 of the ppl are going to be rolling some form of dps. so pick a class everyone else isnt playing, you may get owned alot in pvp combat but other players dont drop loot... mobs do. your still going to have to group for exp and quests.<div></div><p>Message Edited by iluciferi on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:34 AM</span></p>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div>Playing a swash is a lot harder than a tank who just uses taunt 99 % of the time (and yes i have a brusier so i do tank !)<hr></blockquote>I'd say they're easier mechanically (as in the attacks you have to hit and such) and thus easier while soloing, but I find MTing in a group to be a lot harder than DPSing. I've got a 35 necro, a 36 zerker, a 59 bruiser and a 50 swash, so I have a decent idea what I'm talking about.MT requires huge situational awareness, a good sense of leadership, the ability to judge the group and push it just hard enough that it's at its capacity but not breaking, good pulling and positioning, and a ton of split second judgement calls on which the fate of the entire group rests. Plus they have a huge number of attacks, and if you're just sitting there and taunting you're denying a group your decent amount of DPS, especially as a bruiser. On top of that, a bruiser in particular has a mezz, a fear, feign death, a positional attack, four knockdowns, four short-duration toggle abilities for mitigation/spell damage/status effects, and three stances that it's often beneficial to flip between.</span></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>As said above I think there's way more to be aware of as a tank than a damage dealer. The amount of time I've had to go over and pull a mob of our healer as a Brigand because the tank simply hasn't noticed is untrue; and half the time when you do, they resent it.</p><p>The number one skill for a tank is actually watching the group and what's going on. The rest is detail... unfortunately I can't live without Sneak, so it's Scout for me regardless.</p><p>I do notice however that in theory the Rogue AAs make a suitably equiped/specced Rogue a viable group tank.... you'd probably have a hard time selling groups on the idea though.</p>

[Luk]

<div></div>if you want a pvp toon, look at chanter mezz --> root --> nuke, rinse and repeat

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div>If you want a PVP toon and a good guild/raid and group toon then look no further than defiler

[Lachlan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><p>Swashie - Mez , Invis , Evac , Debuff etc etc . Playing a swash is a lot harder than a tank who just uses taunt 99 % of the time (and yes i have a brusier so i do tank !)</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I disagree.  I've played my Guardian and Swashie a good deal now.  As the previous poster noted, a good tank needs to have a lot of playing abilities like leadership and decision making for the whole group during a typical dungeon crawl let alone a raid. </p><p>A proficient tank in EQ2, besides tanking the mob(s) is doing crowd control (AE taunts, agro'ing adds), positioning and all pulling.  In EQ1 that often had been 3 people (Warrior, Monk, Chanter). </p><p>Swashies do have all those great utilities listed, but our agro managment CA's are superiour (that is to say - easy to use) and only Evac requires a split second decision, which is used only occasionally.</p><p>The other thing is, Swashies are easy to level.  Good in a group, they are also above average solo (if you have brain cells).  You could go AFK and let your cat run across the keyboard for an hour, come back and have 2 new levels.  Well... at the least, we have to admit, it's not like you're trying to level a Templar.</p>

[Shiverr]

<div></div><p>Go zerker, you'll have much more fun with that. . .  :smileyindifferent:</p><p> </p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lachlan wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div><p>Swashie - Mez , Invis , Evac , Debuff etc etc . Playing a swash is a lot harder than a tank who just uses taunt 99 % of the time (and yes i have a brusier so i do tank !)</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I disagree.  I've played my Guardian and Swashie a good deal now.  As the previous poster noted, a good tank needs to have a lot of playing abilities like leadership and decision making for the whole group during a typical dungeon crawl let alone a raid. </p><p>A proficient tank in EQ2, besides tanking the mob(s) is doing crowd control (AE taunts, agro'ing adds), positioning and all pulling.  In EQ1 that often had been 3 people (Warrior, Monk, Chanter). </p><hr></blockquote>I agree , hence why i said 99 % of the time :smileywink:

[tass]

well it comes down to this both can solo but swashys get debuffs and stuns and all that and do more dmg than a zerker. the flipside is zerkers can solo herotics weather grped or ^^^ by themselves while swashy aenrt evasive enough to parry that hit for 200 zerkers  and zerkers also get buffs in health regen while in combat and I think a health buff not sure been awhile since i looked at spells. both are always needed in grps so it just depends on ur playing style<div></div>

[Mathe]

<div>I have a Berserker and a Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler damage is much better than Berserker.</div><div> </div><div>Berserkers is the second most fragile Fighter class while soloing. Guardian is a bit worse since they don't have the health regen. This might not sound right, but Bruisers and Monks avoid enough that if you are semi-smart about what you fight, their weak armor isn't a problem. Paladins and Shadowknights can heal themselves many times over during a fight, and they have the same armor anyways (while soloing, odds are you will not be using a shield, so having a Tower shield isn't an advantage).</div><div> </div><div>I'm not sure how long it has been since the person saying Berserkers can easily take down heroics has played one. Berserker avoidance isn't that good with no shield and in the offensive stance (standard solo set up), they can take down the bottom level range heroics, but they aren't going to charge white heroics solo without being cut to ribbons.</div><div> </div><div>Even near the level cap, Swashbucklers can tear apart mobs if they choose them right.</div><div> </div><div>Berserkers are tanks that do good damage and can take a beating well when there is a Priest to heal them.</div><div> </div><div>Swashbucklers are damage dealers with lots of nice debuffs and utility abilities.</div>

[Trollb]

<div>"MT requires huge situational awareness, a good sense of leadership, the ability to judge the group and push it just hard enough that it's at its capacity but not breaking, good pulling and positioning, and a ton of split second judgement calls on which the fate of the entire group rests."</div><div> </div><div>Yep, tank is a cornerstone of a group. Their fun isnt just in their attacks, but being able to read and direct what the whole group can do. Plus being the center of the fight... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i should have made a guardian lol.</div><div> </div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>"MT requires huge situational awareness, a good sense of leadership, the ability to judge the group and push it just hard enough that it's at its capacity but not breaking, good pulling and positioning, and a ton of split second judgement calls on which the fate of the entire group rests."</div><div> </div><div>Yep, tank is a cornerstone of a group. Their fun isnt just in their attacks, but being able to read and direct what the whole group can do. Plus being the center of the fight... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i should have made a guardian lol.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>NOOOOOOOOO YOU DONT WANT TO GO GUARDIAN !!!!!</p>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><div>Go Brusier :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Mithru]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div>I have a Berserker and a Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler damage is much better than Berserker.</div><div> </div><div>Berserkers is the second most fragile Fighter class while soloing. Guardian is a bit worse since they don't have the health regen. This might not sound right, but Bruisers and Monks avoid enough that if you are semi-smart about what you fight, their weak armor isn't a problem. Paladins and Shadowknights can heal themselves many times over during a fight, and they have the same armor anyways (while soloing, odds are you will not be using a shield, so having a Tower shield isn't an advantage).</div><div> </div><div>I'm not sure how long it has been since the person saying Berserkers can easily take down heroics has played one. Berserker avoidance isn't that good with no shield and in the offensive stance (standard solo set up), they can take down the bottom level range heroics, but they aren't going to charge white heroics solo without being cut to ribbons.</div><div> </div><div>Even near the level cap, Swashbucklers can tear apart mobs if they choose them right.</div><div> </div><div>Berserkers are tanks that do good damage and can take a beating well when there is a Priest to heal them.</div><div> </div><div>Swashbucklers are damage dealers with lots of nice debuffs and utility abilities.</div><hr></blockquote>I'd like to point out the rather huge exception of group encounters. Zerkers outdamage scouts in this area once they get rampage and open wounds. When these are up (every three minutes) only certain mage classes can consistently outdamage a zerker in group encounters.

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>Rampage and Open Wounds is Hurricane with 100% chance, but instead of being a permanent buff they can only be up so long. Factoring in the fact that my Swashbuckler can consistently keep my attack speed haste around 70% (over 100% using short term buffs and Bravo's Dance), and has poisons on the weapons. I would hardly consider it an advantage. Even just counting that Berserker had 100% chance at all times, they still have to compete with the fact that Swashbuckler has much more haste naturally and poisons do proc off Hurricane.</p><p>Hardly consider those two skills a major advantage, especially since to my understanding Rampage has a 30 minute recast time.</p>

[Wildfury77]

I also have a swashbuckler and berserker. Swashies are much more easy to solo with but timing is important - would dial-up allow you to get the backstabs in? (someone help me out here)In my opinion Zerkers are awesome melee group tanks (group strength buff, group berzerk, group HP regen, and great tanking abilities) The combo of zerker/swash is lovely....hehe but thats not what you are asking......Soloing on dial-up i would play a BRUISER. Great soloing ability - the ultimate offtank! and less positional consideration. Groups will want u as an offtank/dps, you can solo, and can go main tank as well.I would say for your purposes:<b><font color="#ffff00">Choice 1) Bruiser</font></b>Choice 2) Swashbuckler or MonkChoice 3) BerzerkerIn that order!! I love swashies and zerkers - but it sounds like a brawler class may suit your play style better and far less positional considerations!!<font size="4" color="#ff0000"></font><font size="4" color="#ff0000">SHADOWSCREAM 57Swashie/59Jeweler</font><div></div>

[Gwenev]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lachlan wrote:<div></div><p>The other thing is, Swashies are easy to level.  Good in a group, they are also above average solo (if you have brain cells).  You could go AFK and let your cat run across the keyboard for an hour, come back and have 2 new levels.  Well... at the least, we have to admit, it's not like you're trying to level a Templar.</p><hr></blockquote>You can get your cat to run?  :smileywink:

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><p>Rampage and Open Wounds is Hurricane with 100% chance, but instead of being a permanent buff they can only be up so long. Factoring in the fact that my Swashbuckler can consistently keep my attack speed haste around 70% (over 100% using short term buffs and Bravo's Dance), and has poisons on the weapons. I would hardly consider it an advantage. Even just counting that Berserker had 100% chance at all times, they still have to compete with the fact that Swashbuckler has much more haste naturally and poisons do proc off Hurricane.</p><p>Hardly consider those two skills a major advantage, especially since to my understanding Rampage has a 30 minute recast time.</p><hr></blockquote><p>70% haste consistently (without taking into account the 1/5 buffs)?!  Are you taking into account group buffs here or are you talking self-buff and I'm missing something... Not sure how you are doing this, can you break down the sources of your haste?</p><p>edit: Forgot about feigned bravado ... I assume thats primarily the haste that you are referring to.</p><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:05 PM</span></p>

[Mithru]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><p>Rampage and Open Wounds is Hurricane with 100% chance, but instead of being a permanent buff they can only be up so long. Factoring in the fact that my Swashbuckler can consistently keep my attack speed haste around 70% (over 100% using short term buffs and Bravo's Dance), and has poisons on the weapons. I would hardly consider it an advantage. Even just counting that Berserker had 100% chance at all times, they still have to compete with the fact that Swashbuckler has much more haste naturally and poisons do proc off Hurricane.</p><p>Hardly consider those two skills a major advantage, especially since to my understanding Rampage has a 30 minute recast time.</p><hr></blockquote>Rampage and Open Wounds may be cast simultaneously and proc independently. BOTH are a 100% AE chance firing at the same time. Different AE types and OW works off of autoattack. Both have 3 minute recast. As for haste, berserk adds haste and is easy to keep up when tanking. Open Wounds has a built in haste of 45% at Adept III so haste comparisons are a wash.<p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:17 PM</span></p>

[Luk]

<div></div><div></div><div>Bravado line is excellent, for those of you that are still leveling through the 40's and 50's, look for the master of the lvl 46 of this line, it has identical haste to the adept 3 at lvl 60, and will serve you till you are fortunate enough to pick up the lvl 60 master. My current standard haste is 81% (bravado plus FBSS - looking to switch out FBSS for better stats soon), plus group buffs and STR ring buff put me well over 130% most of the time.</div><p>Message Edited by Licit on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:19 PM</span></p>

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>There is still the factor that Berserkers still don't have poisions, a substantial extra damage proc.</p><p>There is still the factor that the Berserker offensive stance proc goes off a lot less than the Rogue one, and also since it is AE can't be used in all situations.</p><p>There is the factor that still comparitively you do not have AE auto attack up at all times. Stacked or not stacked.</p><p>If you are counting 3 minute abilities then a Swashbuckler should be counting Ruthless Cunning, the Finesse line, and Daring Bravado. All of which increase the damage Hurricane does.</p><p>Unless they changed it, in all between Open Wounds and Rampage, a Berserker gets 15 AE auto-attacks every 3 minutes. Assuming 30 attacks a minute actually hit for a Swashbuckler (pretty much completely ignoring any haste effects and assuming weapon has 2.0 delay, which is an assumption far below actual performance), and Hurricane goes off a third of the time (rather than half for Master I Hurricane), that is still 30 Hurricane procs, all with poison able to proc, possible Daring Bravado. Also with easily over 100% haste without extra group buffs when factoring in Finesse. Plus substantial DPS improvement from Cunning and Finesse. Even with grossly exaggerated numbers, Swashbuckler easily edges it out. Granted there is a slight advantage that Berserker could use a two handed weapon and have that be hitting all the foes, rather than a duel wield or one hander, but 15 procs in three minutes versus a Swashbuckler, that isn't a huge deal except in terms of burst.</p><p>This isn't even going into CAs, where Swashbuckler easily edges out damage and has debuffs on all but one CA that have rather noticable effects. Swashbuckler CAs refresh faster, too. So even though they appear roughly Scout level, the total DPS is lower by having to wait longer for reusing them. It isn't as bad as Monk and Bruiser, where the refresh rates are something like twice what a Scout has for a similar damage ability, but they aren't great either.</p><p>Berserker can using those abilities burst a bit better than Swashbuckler from an auto-attack perspective, but Swashbuckler can burst better CA wise anyways. Auto-attack is just filler for damage, even with Hurricane and poisons and Bravado, between CAs. If auto-attack damage was solely it, then my Inquisitor would be just as good damage wise as my Shadowknight since they both have near identical weapons, but that isn't remotely the case.</p>

[Trollb]

<div>"If its for PVP make neither toon , Healers own PVP nearly impossible to beat them."</div><div> </div><div>I think you need to amend that to;</div><div> </div><div>healers in groups are very useful in pvp.</div><div> </div><div>Any scout is a great pvp class, either solo or grouped (for track and disarm among other things). In a solo gank situation the only time a healer has survived against me solo, is if he by some twist of fate... made the zone line.</div><div> </div><div>Then again, dont make a scout, there are too many of us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Make the zerker, youll get abused by scouts if you solo, but the advantage to this is; tank is the most important part of a group, managing aggro and taking hits, and is more rare than swash, ranger, assassin, brigand or any of those.</div><div> </div><div>If you make a scout, make a bard; they have the best utility of all, and are fairly rare. Your guild and friends will love you as long as you dont act like a priss (some people that make rare but good utility classes think they should be catered to in some extra way, but that doesnt convert well to the reality; we are all important to the group).</div><div> </div>

[Mithru]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Matheau wrote:<div></div><p>There is still the factor that Berserkers still don't have poisions, a substantial extra damage proc.</p><p>There is still the factor that the Berserker offensive stance proc goes off a lot less than the Rogue one, and also since it is AE can't be used in all situations.</p><p>There is the factor that still comparitively you do not have AE auto attack up at all times. Stacked or not stacked.</p><hr></blockquote>Don't put words in my mouth please. The point isn't that Berserkers out damage Swashbucklers in general. They certainly don't. I mentioned a specific situation which isn't all THAT uncommon, but obviously doesn't apply at all times. Against group encounters when Berserkers have these two CAs up, every three minutes, they will outdamage scouts. Since you thought Rampage was on a 30 minute timer, I have to assume your Bersker hasn't reached 50 yet. Get him to 58, hit Rampage and Open Wounds and see for yourself.<p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:20 AM</span></p>

[Wildfury77]

<div></div><div></div>This thread is ridiculous - ZERKERS ARE NOT A DPS CLASS - they are TANKS - go read their forum or better still play one. Anyone that has a high lvl zerker and swash knows this to be true.  They are <u><font color="#ffff00">plate tanks</font></u> and their <i><font color="#ff0000">extra DPS over <u><b>guard</b><b>s</b></u></font></i><b> </b>helps them hold agro given that their <font color="#ff0000"><i>taunts are worse</i></font>. There are few idiots on the zerker forum that try to shout otherwise but they are a minority <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Zerkers are great DPS group tanks and pump out fair DPS in a group (particularly AoE). But they are not 1)Bruisers and 2)Not anything like swashies/brigands/assassins/rangers.There AoE damage is nothing compared to casters or swashies and their one on one DPS is laughable when compared to an assassin(or a bruiser). But thats not why you play a zerker!!! Zerkers are my favorite tanks and are a fun class to play. They don't even produce the highest DPS of the fighter group btw.........<div></div><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:54 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:55 AM</span></p>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:<div></div><div></div>This thread is ridiculous - ZERKERS ARE NOT A DPS CLASS - they are TANKS - go read their forum or better still play one. Anyone that has a high lvl zerker and swash knows this to be true.  They are <u><font color="#ffff00">plate tanks</font></u> and their <i><font color="#ff0000">extra DPS over <u><b>guard</b><b>s</b></u></font></i><b> </b>helps them hold agro given that their <font color="#ff0000"><i>taunts are worse</i></font>. There are few idiots on the zerker forum that try to shout otherwise but they are a minority <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Zerkers are great DPS group tanks and pump out fair DPS in a group (particularly AoE). But they are not 1)Bruisers and 2)Not anything like swashies/brigands/assassins/rangers.There AoE damage is nothing compared to casters or swashies and their one on one DPS is laughable when compared to an assassin(or a bruiser). But thats not why you play a zerker!!! Zerkers are my favorite tanks and are a fun class to play. They don't even produce the highest DPS of the fighter group btw.........<hr></blockquote>To be fair to the OP, his/her question (although vague) really did not have anything directly to do with dps nor did it imply that there was a close relationship in dps between the two.  As most posts do, this one just kinda evolved into a sub-debate between people, who like myself, are probably bored at work. 

[Wildfury77]

<div></div>I'm aware that the OP had nothing to do with the ridiculous "my zerker is  great at DPS" tilt that the post started to take.My honest suggestion to the OP remains: <u><b><font color="#ff0000">BRUISER </font></b></u>- Easy to solo, Best fighter DPS, Less positional considerations (Than the mighty swashie!!), and Useful to a group as Offtank/Maintank. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Wildfury77 on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:50 AM</span></p>

[Wildfury77]

Oh and if he doesn't want to be evil: <font color="#ff0000"><u><b>Monk </b></u></font>- again versatile, self heal, great offtank/(maintank), slightly less DPS than bruiser, feign death,etc<u><font color="#ff0000"><b>Swashbuckler </b></font></u>- again versatile particularly with the AAs. Stamina/strength combo = DPS with survivability/light tanking! The other combo are also good - but i would be going over old ground! (e.g. Agi/Int for raiding, Str/Agi for dual wield DPS - read the other posts)<div></div>

[Mithru]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Wildfury77 wrote:<div></div><div></div>This thread is ridiculous - ZERKERS ARE NOT A DPS CLASS - they are TANKS - go read their forum or better still play one. Anyone that has a high lvl zerker and swash knows this to be true.  They are <u><font color="#ffff00">plate tanks</font></u> and their <i><font color="#ff0000">extra DPS over <u><b>guard</b><b>s</b></u></font></i><b> </b>helps them hold agro given that their <font color="#ff0000"><i>taunts are worse</i></font>. There are few idiots on the zerker forum that try to shout otherwise but they are a minority <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Well I have played a Berskerer, which I thought was implied. By all means go over to their boards and see what they think of their DPS vs groups. You'll find log parses of over 1500 DPS when all the CAs are up (prior to KoS).  Zerkers have always been a plate tank yet have historically done more damage than most thought appropriate. Before the combat change, I could out DPS monks fairly easily on singles, never mind group encounters and Rampage(it was nerfed to uselessness at that point). Bruisers I was about equal. Not scouts unless they were lazy. Since the combat change, things are much more in the intended line, but there is this one area where Berserkers shine when they can go full blast. Sure, its burst damage. But its sufficient burst to take down equal level group heroics in under 20 seconds solo. My parses against group encounters when I use all the AE goodies are easily higher than everything but mage classes. While it cools down, I'm just a tank. :smileyhappy:<p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:24 PM</span></p>