Why are some of you sohappy brigands get reduced to the worst raid class?

[AratornCalahn]

Since our avoid AOE is getting nerfed.Yet you all seem to be jumping around with joy, "yayeeeeee! The brigands are getting nerfed WOOOHOOO!! no more debuffs for US!"So much for being rouges... your acting like...................... rangers :O<div></div><p>Message Edited by AratornCalahn on <span class="date_text">02-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:21 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by AratornCalahn on <span class="date_text">02-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:21 AM</span></p>

[Landaros]

Whatever that was about...<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div>I understand you're upset mate, but it's not a worthwhile post in this forum. As it stands it's simply bait. IT really is only a couple of Swashbucklers jumping arounf with glee, I doubt very much it's representative of the class as a whole.

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div>I understand you're upset mate, but it's not a worthwhile post in this forum. As it stands it's simply bait. IT really is only a couple of Swashbucklers jumping arounf with glee, I doubt very much it's representative of the class as a whole.<hr></blockquote>Im more angry than upset <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lolThis was more too see how many of you really are like that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[A 12 Gauge 007]

<div></div><p>Here's my feeling, everytime brigands get nerfed, we have more swashies. More swashies means less ladies, less ladies, well.... So hell, uberfy Brigands for all I care... but really, I think that anyone who really worries about nerfing skills at all, isnt playing the game for the right reasons. If because a skill gets nerfed you cant have fun because you adapted and overcame, you need to see a shrink because you are too addicted, and you need to roll a ranger because they never get nerfed and are uber cool. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>just kidding, I love rangers too, well, 1 ranger</p>

[Laldien]

a nerf in your debuff would be to loose of maybe that 3k to all physcial dmg debuff... so you have to dodge the aoe liek every other class in game sorry...<div></div>

[Red Forest]

<div></div><p>Amazing Reflexes was bound to get hit by a nerf. Unfortunately now Brigands are by far useless in every aspect in the game. :p</p><p>Joking aside, I remember when our level 52 hidden spell, Hurricane, was nerfed. There was quite a huge uproar about that which I found humorous. Swashy's left 'n' right vowed they never play a swashbuckler anymore because they were all-the-more worthless as a class, no less a DPS one. All I hoped for was to wave them all goodbye as they went to go play rangers -- Blimey, did that make me sick. I was happy enough to play a well-balanced class from pre-LU#13.</p><p>I remember the good ole days pre-LU#13 when I was one of the few swashbucklers on our server. Those were bloody good times. At that time I didn't give an [Removed for Content] how much DPS I did or how uber we were. There was no competition and we all played our class because we knew how to. But of course I roleplay and when I created my swashbuckler in January that's all that mattered. However now I'm constantly questioned how 'uber' swashbucklers are, if we're really that 'stylish,' and watch as a hoarde of 1337 d00ds invade our class. *Sighs* Ah well.</p><p>Sorry to hear of the AR nerf, but again it was only a matter of time.</p><p>Cheers!</p>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Laldien wrote:a nerf in your debuff would be to loose of maybe that 3k to all physcial dmg debuff... so you have to dodge the aoe liek every other class in game sorry...<div></div><hr></blockquote>ok, so exactly did brigands need a nerf?</span><div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Laldien wrote:a nerf in your debuff would be to loose of maybe that 3k to all physcial dmg debuff... so you have to dodge the aoe liek every other class in game sorry...<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>And of course this is taking full consideration of the fact that Brigands maintain raid dps parity with a Swashbuckler jousting and using HoS, while the Brigand is maintaining full melee.... so ask yourself. What do you think is going to happen to a Brigands dps when he has to joust?... yep that's right.</p><p>As I said, this post in this forum was ill conceived. The only thing you will get here is "It's about time." The issue is exactly the same as Swashbucklers who complain about Brigand debuffs without looking at duration and recast timers. A narrow slice of the picture fixated on and extrapolated to an absolute.</p><p>In fairness to the Swashbucklers, it's not their problem. There is no reason why they should be overly concerned, and there is no reason why they should consider it beyond face value. It's unfair to turn up in their community tearing your hair out and expect them to participate in your drama.... leave them alone.</p>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Laldien wrote:a nerf in your debuff would be to loose of maybe that 3k to all physcial dmg debuff... so you have to dodge the aoe liek every other class in game sorry...<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>And of course this is taking full consideration of the fact that Brigands maintain raid dps parity with a Swashbuckler jousting and using HoS, while the Brigand is maintaining full melee.... so ask yourself. What do you think is going to happen to a Brigands dps when he has to joust?... yep that's right.</p><p>As I said, this post in this forum was ill conceived. The only thing you will get here is "It's about time." The issue is exactly the same as Swashbucklers who complain about Brigand debuffs without looking at duration and recast timers. A narrow slice of the picture fixated on and extrapolated to an absolute.</p><p>In fairness to the Swashbucklers, it's not their problem. There is no reason why they should be overly concerned, and there is no reason why they should consider it beyond face value. It's unfair to turn up in their community tearing your hair out and expect them to participate in your drama.... leave them alone.</p><hr></blockquote>Tell that to the swashys and rangers coming over there are telling us we deserve to be nerfed.</span><div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div>There will always be those for whom anothers misfortune produces glee. That's not unique to any class. I understand why Swashbucklers would have a sense of rivalry, although I admit I was suprised by the Ranger posts. They gain nothing from this change even indirectly, and can only be hurt by it.

[Arody]

<div></div><p>i think that there should be no nurfs at all i liked the game the way the classes were at the start ... im not talking about the lvl 1-10 scout then 10-19 rogue i mean the style of play and why does everyone get upset about nurfs</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Impulse Lightning 46 Conjuror / 38 SageRazfyn 17 Swashbuckler / 23 WeaponsmithGuild Leader of Chaotic IllusionMistmoore Server</p>

[Mion da Peon]

<div>I think AR has been on the chopping block ever since LU16 (?) when they nerfed hurricane, but SOE didn't want to simply cut the percent and turn it into a game of chance.  Waiting till an expansion to work it out proper they might have bitten off more than they could chew.  Is it coinenciedence  that a big(est) raid guild is looking to stock up on 4 brigs for their raid force?  No, you guys are by far the best raiding class in the game with AR and will retain much of this usefulness after the tweak.  The worse case senario is that you have to joust some of the time which isn't really that bad once you get used to it.  With good in and out calls/intel I hardly ever find time to use HoS.  Sorry about the nerfs guys, but you can't honestly say that you didn't see it coming.</div>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mion da Peon wrote:<div>I think AR has been on the chopping block ever since LU16 (?) when they nerfed hurricane, but SOE didn't want to simply cut the percent and turn it into a game of chance.  Waiting till an expansion to work it out proper they might have bitten off more than they could chew.  Is it coinenciedence  that a big(est) raid guild is looking to stock up on 4 brigs for their raid force?  No, you guys are by far the best raiding class in the game with AR and will retain much of this usefulness after the tweak.  The worse case senario is that you have to joust some of the time which isn't really that bad once you get used to it.  With good in and out calls/intel I hardly ever find time to use HoS.  Sorry about the nerfs guys, but you can't honestly say that you didn't see it coming.</div><hr></blockquote>That guild had people in beta.... they knew about these changes before hand. Im now thinking they are stocking up on brigands BECAUSE of these AOE changes (their real reason they would not say).</span><div></div>

[Mion da Peon]

<div></div><div></div>um, because you guys still kick ace?<p>Message Edited by Mion da Peon on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:07 AM</span></p>

[Gusta]

<div></div>How about makeng both Brigs and Swashies immune to AE? problelm solved  :smileyvery-happy:

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gusta wrote:<div></div>How about makeng both Brigs and Swashies immune to AE? problelm solved  :smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote>I wondered why you got HoS instead of avoid AOE... I always though swashys should get avoid AOEs too...</span><div></div>

[Keldo]

Nerfing it to 30 second recast when you take damage is hardly a nerf at all, considering the number of mobs with a damage shield (almost none even with new changes).  Most smart Brigands realize this, the rangers and swashbucklers are trolling you because you are posting threads like this all over your boards acting like mages.If I were you, I'd be thanking my lucky stars it wasn't cut in half or something worse.  As it stands now, there may be a couple fights in the game you are less effective.  Useless?  Gimme a break.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:Nerfing it to 30 second recast when you take damage is hardly a nerf at all, considering the number of mobs with a damage shield (almost none even with new changes).  Most smart Brigands realize this, the rangers and swashbucklers are trolling you because you are posting threads like this all over your boards acting like mages.If I were you, I'd be thanking my lucky stars it wasn't cut in half or something worse.  As it stands now, there may be a couple fights in the game you are less effective.  Useless?  Gimme a break.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>So when you say most smart Brigands realise this which Brigands from the test server are you quoting exactly because it's not the Brigands insisting you wont keep AR up for more than 5 seconds..... and before you get high and mighty about Brigands posting on the issue, there's fewer threads on this issue than there were on Hurricane.</p><p>As it stands, based upon feeback most testing Brigands would prefer it to be cut in half rather than it's current test form. How it looks on paper does not coincide with what's being fed back from test.</p><p>At the end of the day, I've dusted off my Swashbuckler so I'll have fun regardless.</p>

[Keldo]

There was a couple  threads on Hurricane and only one got to 4 pages after about 2 weeks.  This Brigand whining is already spawned like 6 threads and the main one is already over 7 pages after 2 days.  Don't give me that~And clue me in to how exactly you are going to lose it 'every 5 seconds'?  Let's see, the mob either has to aggro you or you need a damage shield.   So in order to be useless a large amount of mobs would need to have a damage shield that isn't dispellable, they also need to be orange so the AE will kill you, and they need to have 2 AEs as well because 1 AE is not even a challenge to dodge.  So tell me, how many mobs are orange, have 2 or more AE and also have a damage shield?  Why would you rather have it cut in half?  That would be FAR worse of a nerf.As for the high and mighty, I have a brigand at raid level.  I also seem to recall you guys trolling this board and every other board including your own with that 'hilarious' brigand heals are broken garbage for the last few months whenever you came up in a discussion.  So when you come whining to our board that you are getting some of your own medicine back, I don't really think high and mighty enters into the equation.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><div></div><p>You're right Keldoth. You've convinced me. We're bad people. Moresoe, we're spineless and whiny bad people. I apologise for taking up your time.</p><p>Message Edited by Carnagh on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:13 PM</span></p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<p>How it looks on paper does not coincide with what's being fed back from test.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, that would mean it's bugged, not that it's been nerfed to a 5 second duration. There's a big difference between a mahoosive, intentional, skill-destroying nerf and a buggy skill.</p><p>Regardless of the borked version currently on test/beta, the new "break on damage" spell description is really not that big a deal. How much direct damage or DS damage do brigands (or any non-tank classes) take on raids? Next to none. So, once AR is <em>working</em> according to the description, there should be almost no difference in practice between the old and new forms on 95% of raid encounters.</p><p>Personally I don't like to see skills and classes nerfed because everyone knows that sinking feeling you get, as if some of the fun you've been having with your abilities has been chipped away. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But... upward balancing of everyone else to compensate for one class's powerful ability is not always a practical solution, so a change to AR isn't at all unexpected. And all in all the intended change isn't really that harsh -- no increased hate gain, no short buff duration, no cutting your damage in half while it's active, etc.</p><p>On the plus side, notice the "Obscurative Smoke" AA that comes with the expansion -- an hate <em>decreaser</em> buff, which basically offsets the hate gain on AR for its duration. On the other hand, swashbucklers <font size="2">(from what I can tell) </font>don't get that benefit when they use HoS to avoid AEs, because the hate decreaser on Obscurative Smoke only has a very short effect range. AR should still be a perfectly viable raid AE solution once it's fixed -- providing you don't pull aggro, you can still get close enough to raid mobs to DPS, debuff, use Obscurative Smoke's hate reducer, <em>and </em>use your on-demand evades. All swashbucklers can do is root themself in place and use HoS to DPS in 30 second bursts at a pretty horrendous hate gain, with no benefit from any hate reducers. When AR is working per its new description, it really shouldn't be that raw a deal.</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>I'd agree with you Overfloater - and I'd also thank you for your measured tone - I'd remind you however that AR as it currently stands live leave a Brigand open to AoE if he draws aggro of the mob already, but I'll grant that while it's a nerf non will relish if it goes in as it is on paper it is something Brigands could simply adapt and live with.... but consider, if Brigands don't create a stink <strong>before</strong> it goes live, there is a very very real chance the devs wouldn't even notice is not working as it say on paper and it's effectively non-functional... we both know once it's live it's a complete lottery as to when it would ever get on an agenda for fixing if indeed it ever did. We might live with it broken for 6 weeks, or 6 months.</p><p>I do feel for any class that has to joust in raids, it's the reason I rolled a Brigand, so I'd not dismiss or brush off the fact that Swashbucklers have to do so when not using HoS. I would undeline the fact that Swashbucklers manage to remain competative with  Brigands with dps while doing so. The very real fear is that if Brigands have to do likewise, their dps will go through the floor.</p><p>Apart from those beta testing, the rest of us wont know for sure what we're getting until it goes live; but by that pointing what we're getting is what we've got and we'll likely be living with it for some time.</p>

[ilucife]

lol someone thinks soe pays attention to ppl in test. the thing is it WILL go live on the 21st whether they fix the bug or not. ppl have told the devs that skills are broken countless times and they have done next to nothing. i think alot of the blame rests not necessarily with the devs (though they may come up with the idea) but the fact that they like anyone else has deadlines to achieve, so blame the person above them. (though i will admit, it is more fun to give the devs crap)as far as it being a nerf, i think the points been made.... do your job dont get agro, for those raid mobs that have a no removable DS (ive honestly cant think of one) looks like you have to joust...on the plus side ive heard, though havent confirmed that a few classes will have group AoE immunity when aa's come out. so maybe thats the rational behind it /shrug<div></div>

[Scort]

<blockquote><hr>AratornCalahn wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div>I understand you're upset mate, but it's not a worthwhile post in this forum. As it stands it's simply bait. IT really is only a couple of Swashbucklers jumping arounf with glee, I doubt very much it's representative of the class as a whole.<hr></blockquote>Im more angry than upset <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lolThis was more too see how many of you really are like that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>We know about the angry part bud, they hit us hard too. We just happened to be the first ones they hit so, we been posting longer about it.Sorry to hear. I was actually surprised you all got nerfed considering how many of the top tier developers play brigands.Like someone said a few months ago, once SOE starts nerfing, they don't stop. It won't end. They will continue to swing the mighty nerf bat. I been around SOE long enough to know that's so true.

[TheSummoned]

Should at least make it absorb damage that exceeds 10% or more of the brigands HP. Damage shields and manastone wouldn't be a major problem then...<div></div>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheSummoned wrote:Should at least make it absorb damage that exceeds 10% or more of the brigands HP. Damage shields and manastone wouldn't be a major problem then...<div></div><hr></blockquote>There are loads of ideas about how to make it a much more managed nerf... yet we dont even know WHY they did it in het first place...Myself, I think they did it to make t7 raids harder... (same as they did with chanters in t6)Nerf the class(s) that make it easier rather than fix the problem! GG SOE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><p> but consider, if Brigands don't create a stink <strong>before</strong> it goes live, there is a very very real chance the devs wouldn't even notice is not working as it say on paper and it's effectively non-functional... we both know once it's live it's a complete lottery as to when it would ever get on an agenda for fixing if indeed it ever did. We might live with it broken for 6 weeks, or 6 months.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, now that I can sympathise with. I spent 10 months /feedbacking on our entirely broken subclass before it was fixed! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>I do feel for any class that has to joust in raids, it's the reason I rolled a Brigand, so I'd not dismiss or brush off the fact that Swashbucklers have to do so when not using HoS.<hr></blockquote><p>Don't feel too sorry. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Maybe I'm just a masochist but I actually quite enjoy it! It's raid coordination that I really love, not who can pull the highest DPS, and jousting one or more AEs while remaining effective -- prioritising and timing debuffs, etc. -- is a great test of that coordination, teamwork and player skill.</p><p>Of course, it does require that you have the tools to deal with it, and this is the only place I really see a problem with the new AR. Against a mob with a DS, brigands will be forced to joust but lack any ranged DPS for those out-of-AE moments.</p><p> </p><p>That said, I think most brigands believe swashies use HoS far more often than they really do. It's not <em>quite</em> so bad now, but when HoS had a 2 second activation time there were many occasions where there was simply no point toggling it on. Better to just time the AE carefully -- just hang in there until the last moment and get back in there bare seconds later after the AE fires. HoS is far more useful when you have two closely-timed AEs and it would be a waste of time (and/or too dangerous) to try a joust between them.</p><p>When we do use HoS, we have no way of reducing hate, <em>plus </em>we gain at an accelerated rate... meaning that the first 5-ish seconds of the next joust are often spent firing Evades and Shadow Slip to dump that hate. Because we have no way of reducing hate during HoS, it means we have to be even more careful with hate generation -- whereas brigands can evade and shadow slip to reduce the extra hate from AR (or just slow down on their DPS), a swashbuckler's only choice is to toggle HoS off completely! And, if we do that, we are rendered entirely useless (except ranged autoattack...) until we're safe to joust or that 30-sec HoS recast is up. If there's another AE before that 30-sec recast is up? Well, we have to get out of AE range but, again, we're rendered useless. I don't think HoS is quite the ranged godsend, "ultimate solution to jousting" that many brigands believe it is. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AratornCalahn wrote:<span><p>There are loads of ideas about how to make it a much more managed nerf... yet we dont even know WHY they did it in het first place...Myself, I think they did it to make t7 raids harder... (same as they did with chanters in t6)Nerf the class(s) that make it easier rather than fix the problem! GG SOE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>The Wizards and Warlocks made them change it.  They are the cause of all nerf'ing to other classes.</p><p> </p>

[aron]

<div></div><p>I for one am [Removed for Content] you guys are getting nerfed! I don't give a rats [Removed for Content] about class envy or you got we don't! I am a raiding Swashy the only one in my guild and I have my counterpart the ONE Brigand we have in our guild. I love the fact she can stand in there during Aoes and mutilate the the mob, because it dies faster and we get the chest for the win! We are both rogues she is just evil as hell and I'm well sexy! If you guys get nerfed the raid force as a whole gets nerfed as our time beating on the mob increases....doh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] why nerf? We swashys made our choice when we selected the class same as brigands we accepted the choice good with the bad. This game doesn't have alignment changes as a Swashy can be evil as hell and a Brigand can be Robin Hood! The whole concept of raiding is TEAM not I or my  DPS is higher than yours BS. DPS watchers are COWBOYS destined for the PVP servers where they can murder each other and gloat over it! Raiding is about the team getting the chest for the win not [Removed for Content] and moaning one class has something I don't. I for one DON'T WANT THE BRIGANDS NERFED!!!!!</p><p>That my 2 coppers</p><p> </p><p>Xqiva LVL 60 SWASHBUCKLER/LVL 60 ARMORER</p><p>NAJENA / Veni Vidi Vici                                                                                                                </p>

[massem]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>AratornCalahn wrote:<span><p>There are loads of ideas about how to make it a much more managed nerf... yet we dont even know WHY they did it in het first place...Myself, I think they did it to make t7 raids harder... (same as they did with chanters in t6)Nerf the class(s) that make it easier rather than fix the problem! GG SOE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>The Wizards and Warlocks made them change it.  They are the cause of all nerf'ing to other classes.</p><hr></blockquote>Hehe is this sad little whiny ranger mad about the bugfix to Stream of Arrows ? :smileyhappy:

[Luk]

<div></div><p>One thing concerns me here. The title of the thread suggests that one skill is the hinging point of being the worst raid class, you may be happy at the moment, but even with this change, you are far from the worst class or the most useless, maybe its the way you play, to develope your whole play skill based on one skill shows a certain amount of tunnel vision.</p><p>You just have to do what we have had to do many times, learn how the change impacts your class and move on, yes you will have to change tactics, but do you really want to be doing the same thing on every raid for the next year? To me that would be awefully boring.</p>

[Zodi]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Red Forest wrote:<div></div><p>Amazing Reflexes was bound to get hit by a nerf. Unfortunately now Brigands are by far useless in every aspect in the game. :p</p><p>Joking aside, I remember when our level 52 hidden spell, Hurricane, was nerfed. There was quite a huge uproar about that which I found humorous. Swashy's left 'n' right vowed they never play a swashbuckler anymore because they were all-the-more worthless as a class, no less a DPS one. All I hoped for was to wave them all goodbye as they went to go play rangers -- Blimey, did that make me sick. I was happy enough to play a well-balanced class from pre-LU#13.</p><p>I remember the good ole days pre-LU#13 when I was one of the few swashbucklers on our server. Those were bloody good times. At that time I didn't give an [Removed for Content] how much DPS I did or how uber we were. There was no competition and we all played our class because we knew how to. But of course I roleplay and when I created my swashbuckler in January that's all that mattered. However now I'm constantly questioned how 'uber' swashbucklers are, if we're really that 'stylish,' and watch as a hoarde of 1337 d00ds invade our class. *Sighs* Ah well.</p><p>Sorry to hear of the AR nerf, but again it was only a matter of time.</p><p>Cheers!</p><hr></blockquote><p>I really dont understand why SOE do this crap. Brigadands and Swashies are not first tier DPS and they get thier abilities nerfed. This sounds like when gaige decided to form a crusaded against the Guardians which resulted in the biggest nerfed in any class history. Guys keep your shin high!</p><p>I dont think any swashie is happy that the sister class get nerfed. Personally I have never seen a forum from swashies flaming the brigadads</p><p> </p><p>Guardian from Crushbone</p>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Licit wrote:<div></div><p>One thing concerns me here. The title of the thread suggests that one skill is the hinging point of being the worst raid class, you may be happy at the moment, but even with this change, you are far from the worst class or the most useless, maybe its the way you play, to develope your whole play skill based on one skill shows a certain amount of tunnel vision.</p><p>You just have to do what we have had to do many times, learn how the change impacts your class and move on, yes you will have to change tactics, but do you really want to be doing the same thing on every raid for the next year? To me that would be awefully boring.</p><hr></blockquote>worst scout raid class, just below assassin, IF the reports from beta go live.</span><div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div>Hehe is this sad little whiny ranger mad about the bugfix to Stream of Arrows ? :smileyhappy:<hr></blockquote><p>Not at all Mr Masseman and if you read my post on the Brigand thread in the Testing Forum you would know that.  Loosing the point blank use of Stream just make you use better tactic's when using it.  And the recuring mana cost is a good fix to make it equal with other ancient teaching skills with recuring mana costs.  Recuring mana cost is the one change I think could be done to Amazing Reflexes but other then that it should stay as is.</p><p>Overall I found LU19 to be one of the better LU's.  Only two things I disliked were the ring changes that temporarily made fable rings worthless (rings changing again in LU20) and that they bugged up some of the armor and shields with proc's on them.</p><p>But in the end yes I still vote that it is the Wizards and Warlocks fault for the nerf to Brigands AR skill.  Since they have singled out my poor little Ranger for all their abuse I decided to return the favor.  You should check out the Circlet thread in the Item Forum.  I gave a great A, B, C, D explanation on how and why it was Wizards and Warlocks that broke that cool Mage hat.  It's quite entertaining and even one of the other mages agreed with it :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zodian wrote:<div></div><p>This sounds like when gaige decided to form a crusaded against the Guardians which resulted in the biggest nerfed in any class history. Guys keep your shin high!</p><hr></blockquote>Shins high?

[overfloat]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zodian wrote:<div></div><p>This sounds like when gaige decided to form a crusaded against the Guardians which resulted in the biggest nerfed in any class history. Guys keep your shin high!</p><hr></blockquote>Shins high?<hr></blockquote><p>Parries a kick to the family jewels. Would've thought a monk would know that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (heck, I thought it was instinctive for any male!) <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><em>PS: do you do regular searches for your name?! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  How'd you manage to track down that little mention out of the entire board?!</em></p><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 PM</span></p>

[massem]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><p>But in the end yes I still vote that it is the Wizards and Warlocks fault for the nerf to Brigands AR skill.  Since they have singled out my poor little Ranger for all their abuse I decided to return the favor.  You should check out the Circlet thread in the Item Forum.  I gave a great A, B, C, D explanation on how and why it was Wizards and Warlocks that broke that cool Mage hat.  It's quite entertaining and even one of the other mages agreed with it :smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote><p>Found that thread and didn't see anything logical in your argumentation. Fact is that SOE screwed up when they changed how procs work and are now fixing the problems they caused.  The way poison procs too often now is also most likely bugged and will also be fixed soon i presume. Like you say Ranger DPS did not change very much with LU19, at least not as far as I have seen on my raid parses and to be honest I really didn't notice much when the second hand proc was removed. </p><p>I would hate to see brigands lose the ability to debuff as effectively as they do now, but maybe the best thing for wizards would be to change to your tactics and work towards ranger nerfs instead of fixing of other classes - its probably easier to accomplish.</p><p>And Crychton, your attitude will accomplish nothing but more ranger nerf calls and hate towards the ranger class.</p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">02-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:17 AM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div>Why would I want to work toward a Ranger nerf? What exactly would I gain out of that?

[massem]

<div>Now this got a bit out of topic on this thread since it was meant as a reply to Chrychton and  not to the Swashie community. But anyhow since you ask I should give you the background.</div><div><div>I am just telling him, that his posts have not helped me and my fellow wizards the least, and his hate tactics may  very well lead to change in tactics from trying to have our class fixed, to instead working towards a ranger nerf. </div><div> </div><div><div>During the last 3 months or so, every week or so there has been threads documenting the 400-600 DPS gap between sorcerers and another T1 DPS class which happens to be ranger. Since Chrychton and a few other rangers feels that this threatens their position as the kings of the DPS. Therefore, every single one of these threads has been trolled by Chrychton. Now since every single argument he and his fellow rangers have presented to to motivate why rangers should do around 40-50% higher DPS than other T1 DPS classes has been refuted, he has now resorted to this hate tactic.</div><div> </div><div>When he starts spreading his hate in various class forums I just felt the urge to respond :smileyhappy:. But its true - the wizard ranger discussion has no place on this board. I play neither a swashie or brigand and thus I cannot tell how you measure up to the rangers, and I am certainly not in a position to advise you on your class issues. That was not my intention with the above post.</div></div><div> </div></div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Carna]

<div></div>Ahhhh, fair enough. That is as you say between you chaps. Thanks for the explanation though.

[Tybr]

<div></div><p>To the OP...</p><p>I have never called for a Nerf to any class...Nor would I.</p><p>Live and let live...</p>

[Sabatini]

Happy? I dont care about brigands one way or another. I'm a swashbuckler who betrayed purposely to become one. If I ever wanted to be a brigand I could have.Sorry you got nerfed. But we're no strangers to it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dojoc]

To all swashy's:Don't feed the Troll <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Mion da Peon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dojocan wrote:To all swashy's:Don't feed the Troll <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>I dunno, while the title and  topic of this thread was undeniably a troll I think some good discussion came of it.  As for your comment, not really.

[AratornCalahn]

<span>The title was just a means of getting attention. This is not a troll, its just a sure fire way of getting a lot of opions on the situation. I ahve seen that some of the swashys like I expected do actualy care (like brgiands cared when hurricane got nerfed). However there are some swashys here with inexplicatable brgiand hate or evny.</span><div></div>

[Iseabeil]

<div>Amazing Reflexes is a lvl 52 skill with no equivelant prior, and none after it. Anyone rolling a class because of one single skill that is obviously standing outside the normal skill tree by bein drop based, is failing to see the big picture of mmorpgs. Its like rolling a templar just for Sanctuary or warden so ye can have some wolves. Any skills that arent part of the actual skill lines will be limited in one way or another, and expecting them to be class defining is gonna make ye disappointed. Group sneak is class defining for rogues, Befuddle Adversaries, Beseech for Mercy, Murderous Rake etc is class defining for brigands.</div><div>Before combat revamp, rangers were... weel, not lousy, but no way near awesome... Then they become lords of dps and everyone and their mama makes a ranger. Same thing with conjurors. Rangers are starting to get adressed, and more will come. Summoners will be changed too sooner or later. Every ranger I know that made their character before combat revamp are either np with this, or in some cases even satisfied as many of these new rangers will locate next FotM class and move on. Before revamp, the amount of paladins and some other classes were sick as they were overpowered.. Those that was in it only for the 'pwnage' moved on. The brigands that are in it only for AR will move on and leave the ones that are in it for what the class is will stay. The amount of players in any said class has zero, zip nada to do with if a class is overpowered. If an overpowered class manages to avoid detection, does that give them immunity to bein balanced? and overpowered class will be more likely to have high population, rangers and paladins had their skills evident in all aspect of play, brigands only show theirs in raids and there is a hush hush on both rogue forums about our usability.</div><div>It will happen to every class sooner or later, not a single is except, adapt or move on.</div><div> </div><div>ps. please nerf HoS to a ranged debuff instead *grins*</div><div> </div>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:<div>Amazing Reflexes is a lvl 52 skill with no equivelant prior, and none after it. Anyone rolling a class because of one single skill that is obviously standing outside the normal skill tree by bein drop based, is failing to see the big picture of mmorpgs. Its like rolling a templar just for Sanctuary or warden so ye can have some wolves. Any skills that arent part of the actual skill lines will be limited in one way or another, and expecting them to be class defining is gonna make ye disappointed. Group sneak is class defining for rogues, Befuddle Adversaries, Beseech for Mercy, Murderous Rake etc is class defining for brigands.</div><div>Before combat revamp, rangers were... weel, not lousy, but no way near awesome... Then they become lords of dps and everyone and their mama makes a ranger. Same thing with conjurors. Rangers are starting to get adressed, and more will come. Summoners will be changed too sooner or later. Every ranger I know that made their character before combat revamp are either np with this, or in some cases even satisfied as many of these new rangers will locate next FotM class and move on. Before revamp, the amount of paladins and some other classes were sick as they were overpowered.. Those that was in it only for the 'pwnage' moved on. The brigands that are in it only for AR will move on and leave the ones that are in it for what the class is will stay. The amount of players in any said class has zero, zip nada to do with if a class is overpowered. If an overpowered class manages to avoid detection, does that give them immunity to bein balanced? and overpowered class will be more likely to have high population, rangers and paladins had their skills evident in all aspect of play, brigands only show theirs in raids and there is a hush hush on both rogue forums about our usability.</div><div>It will happen to every class sooner or later, not a single is except, adapt or move on.</div><div> </div><div>ps. please nerf HoS to a ranged debuff instead *grins*</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>I dont say its "class deifning" although it was, for a shot time. The problem I have is that if it goes live to its current report of how it works, there is not much point useing it. I know that sounds drastic and "over the top" but hey, if you said "carpenters... your not going to get any rare recipys for over 6 mothns!" do you think some people would come out and say "thats over the top"? ofcourse they would. We are just trying to make sure they dont F up our class and take a year to fix it.Oh and BTW, while group sneak was class defining, others had better. It was class defining in the sense that our class had it, i.e. Nukes were a class defining chanter ability but summoners and sorcs did it better.I will be pleased if all the bandwagon jumpers leave though, but id rather be useful in a raid.</span><div></div>

[Scort]

Ok, can we move this to the Brigand forums?

[Gandof82]

<div>aratorn , how about you calm down , AR nerf isnt the end of the world , and brigs definetly not gona be worst in raids</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Tikku , lvl 60 Brigand on Splitpaw</div>

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gandof82 wrote:<div>aratorn , how about you calm down , AR nerf isnt the end of the world , and brigs definetly not gona be worst in raids</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Tikku , lvl 60 Brigand on Splitpaw</div><hr></blockquote>I am calm... <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So ill "calm down" when the devs fix it...  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AratornCalahn wrote:<span>The problem I have is that if it goes live to its current report of how it works, there is not much point useing it.</span><hr></blockquote><p>The point several of us have been trying to make is that there's a world of difference between<em> "current reports of how it works on Beta"</em> and <em>"how it's <u>meant</u> to work according to its new spell description"</em>.</p><p>I understand that Beta brigands are saying it's breaking every 5 seconds, so it's obviously buggy -- and I don't blame people for raising the alarm here and asking the Devs to make sure it's a <u>priority</u> fix before it goes live, otherwise your raiding lives would suck. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But... that's not what most of the complaints here have been about. Instead, many brigands are just getting defensive, snarky and accusatory towards other classes because simply they're [Removed for Content] off that AR is now breakable at all, regardless of how it's currently functioning on Beta. Many are claiming that, if it's breakable at all, they'll be utterly useless in all raids (and obviously it's all the fault of the swashbucklers, rangers, mages, wizards, etc. etc.). That's plainly overreacting if you actually consider the logic, but then logic usually plays second fiddle to emotion when nerfs are under discussion. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The main concern I have is if SOE have added too many raid mobs in KoS that use non-dispellable damage shields. It would be unfair to brigands to have their AE solution more or less useless in most situtations. But again, I've not seen any feedback from Beta to support that possibility, nor have I seen many people point that out as a valid concern.... just knee-jerk reactions.</p>

[Scort]

Simple way to fix this is, if it's too powerful the way it is (which I kinda agree it is), is to just make it so that you only take 1/2 the normal damage or 1/4. Instead of total immunity (which is hard to believe in an AOE environment), just say you avoided most of it.

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>overfloater wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>AratornCalahn wrote:<span>The problem I have is that if it goes live to its current report of how it works, there is not much point useing it.</span><hr></blockquote><p>The point several of us have been trying to make is that there's a world of difference between<em> "current reports of how it works on Beta"</em> and <em>"how it's <u>meant</u> to work according to its new spell description"</em>.</p><p>I understand that Beta brigands are saying it's breaking every 5 seconds, so it's obviously buggy -- and I don't blame people for raising the alarm here and asking the Devs to make sure it's a <u>priority</u> fix before it goes live, otherwise your raiding lives would suck. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But... that's not what most of the complaints here have been about. Instead, many brigands are just getting defensive, snarky and accusatory towards other classes because simply they're [Removed for Content] off that AR is now breakable at all, regardless of how it's currently functioning on Beta. Many are claiming that, if it's breakable at all, they'll be utterly useless in all raids (and obviously it's all the fault of the swashbucklers, rangers, mages, wizards, etc. etc.). That's plainly overreacting if you actually consider the logic, but then logic usually plays second fiddle to emotion when nerfs are under discussion. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The main concern I have is if SOE have added too many raid mobs in KoS that use non-dispellable damage shields. It would be unfair to brigands to have their AE solution more or less useless in most situtations. But again, I've not seen any feedback from Beta to support that possibility, nor have I seen many people point that out as a valid concern.... just knee-jerk reactions.</p><hr></blockquote>I have a chanter friend, I am acting logicaly. Because the devs often push though nerfs even when it really nerfs classes down and dont fix the probolems. Its happneed before, im hopeing (and being very obvious and vocal) it wont happen to us.</span><div></div>

[Mion da Peon]

<div>I think it's kinda humorous that some of the first reactions (posted by brigs) were on how to "fix" AR properly.  Many of these player suggested fixes were acutally alot harsher than the nerf SOE is implementing.  I veiw this like an admission of guilt, repentance on judgement day, or somthing like that, heh.</div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mion da Peon wrote:<div>I think it's kinda humorous that some of the first reactions (posted by brigs) were on how to "fix" AR properly.  Many of these player suggested fixes were acutally alot harsher than the nerf SOE is implementing.  I veiw this like an admission of guilt, repentance on judgement day, or somthing like that, heh.</div><hr></blockquote>It's posts like this that make us accusatory.

[AratornCalahn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mion da Peon wrote:<div>I think it's kinda humorous that some of the first reactions (posted by brigs) were on how to "fix" AR properly.  Many of these player suggested fixes were acutally alot harsher than the nerf SOE is implementing.  I veiw this like an admission of guilt, repentance on judgement day, or somthing like that, heh.</div><hr></blockquote>Thats desperation, in the face of a injustice.And if it goes live like the reports (7 days to go...) then they wouldn't be harsh <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Mion da Peon]

<div></div><div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>AratornCalahn wrote:</p><p><span>Thats desperation, in the face of a injustice.And if it goes live like the reports (7 days to go...) then they wouldn't be harsh <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><hr></blockquote>Ah yeah, guess I could see that.</div>