Serious Question: Ideal Raid DPS Group

[Syrano]

<div>I've found some stuff here and there by running searches but nothing with a good Swash focus that's focused on this subject.  I've heard a lot of theories, not seen a lot of facts.  I'm trying to piece together what the ideal DPS group is on a raid, specifically in regards to Swashes and to a lesser degree other Scouts.</div><div> </div><div>I'll start the discussion by stating that I'm not convinced throwing all the Rangers (go Norris!) in with the Swashies/Brigs is such a great idea.  I routinely get slapped in a group with an Inquisitor and 3-4 rangers.  As the "DPS" group.  This results in me having no attack buffs, no strength/agi buffs and no haste.  In essence, I debuff but don't worry about DPS.  As a result I routinely post pretty low numbers.  Meanwhile the rangers post their usual (they don't seem to need buffs as much).</div><div> </div><div>So I'm trying to think of ways to restructure the group.  In my mind Rangers need a healer, but honestly any healer, even a Pally might do.  As a general rule from what I've seen, Rangers get hit on raids either because A) they pulled too much aggro (their fault) or B) the raid is wiping anyway.  Swashies, Brigs, Assasins all need quality buffs.  So I was thinking:</div><div> </div><div>1. Guardian - Has some great attack buffs, but might be more valuable backing up or being the main tank</div><div>2. Monks/Bruisers- Dont' they get some form of group str/attadck buffs?</div><div>3. Fury/Warden - One of these guys has some pretty impressive str/agi buff</div><div> </div><div>I'm obviously not as clued into what other buffs classes have.  How do your guilds put the DPS groups together on raids.  Note: They don't have to be ideal, just what are your options and what are your justifications?</div>

[-Llama-]

<div></div><p>Dirge Berzerker Conjurer Fury Swashbuckler and Either Illusionist/Coercer/Bruiser/Monk</p><p>Dirge: Group offensive buffs, Group proc, Cacophany of blades (13 second Inspired Daring for the whole group)</p><p>Berzerker: Group str buffs, Group Berzerk ( +attack speed, +DPS), group health regen</p><p>Conjurer: Fire Seed (my fav proc)</p><p>Fury:Group Int buffs, Single target proc that ups attack speed and DPS</p><p>Swash: Duh</p><p>Illusionist:Single target big haste buff, group int buff</p><p>OR</p><p>Coercer:Big single target DPS increase</p><p>OR</p><p>Bruiser: Group DPS increase</p><p>OR</p><p>Monk: Group attack speed increase</p><p> </p><p>That is an optimal swash DPS group. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ddrak]

Fury gives 10 seconds of +50% dps/attack speed, and buffs intInquisitor gives permanent +30% dpsDirge gives +20% dps + cacophony of blades + procs + attack skills / strength etc etcIllusionist buffs intel, adds proc damage, and can haste permanently +47% (very nice on swash with dps boosters in place)Bruiser does good damage on thier own and they add +20% dps to groupBerserker adds str, +dps/+attack speed proc + some short duration stuff thats niceYour Ideal for making 1 Swashbuckler deal massive DPS would beIllusionist (proc, int + haste), Inquisitor (+30% dps), Bruiser (+20% dps), Dirge (skills, dps, cacophony), conj/nec/wiz for proc (this really is not much dps overall tho)That would give you permanently: +47% attack speed, +70% dps, +120 or more str, +20-30 to attack skills, + proc damage. You are basically hitting cap on haste, dps, attack skils and str, with added procs.Normally on our raids we have set up like this:MT group: 3 different priests, coercer, tank, conj/pal/bardMaster Blaster group: Conj, Nec, Wiz, Warlock, Troubador, FuryGroup Superior Range: Inquis, Ranger, Brigand, Conj, Bruiser, Assassin/Ranger (short on rangers sadly)Group Ground Pounder: Dirge, Inquis, Illusionist, Swash, Assassin, BruiserWorks out fairly well, hit 10,500 DPS as a raid last night which was our best so far.

[-Llama-]

<div></div>Btw it was confirmed that the illus proc that procs off of spells, does NOT proc off poisons. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Debunkt]

<div></div><p>I've never had the pleasure of raiding with another Swash until this past weekend. There were some times that we were in the same group and I did not notice any of the "..would not take effect" messages like I was expecting. I didn't think our debuffs would stack, has anyone else experienced that?</p><p>Tis true Swashes love the dirt nap so it's unlikely any raid would have two...but thought I'd ask anyway.</p>

[hoop]

<div></div><p>10,500 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the fight ;ast 2 secs? hehe</p><p>i personally like me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, troub, dirge, fury,conj,coercer. now thats just if im bein greedy and tryin to max out swash dps, not the best set up to be beneficial for all.</p>

[Keldo]

Illusionist proc he was referring to was probably Prismatic Havoc (or whatever upgrade is) that procs up to 3 times 600-800 damage on successful attacks.  Damage is registered to illusionist, but with multiple hit attacks you can get more than 3 fires out of it.  Works especially good with bruiser + illusionist for 8 procs off their 100 slap line.<div></div>

[Syrano]

So let's adjust this abit and start thinking about the ideal DPS group.  Rather than just buffing teh swashy, how would you maximize buffs to DPS'ers (melee's) in general while minimizing need for special classes?  I.e. I've got 6 group slots, what's the right ratio of DPS'ers to supports?Is it:  Inquis, Zerker, + 4 dps'ers?Inquis, Zerker, Illus + 3 dps'ers?Which DPS'ers?  Do rangers benefit from buffs more or less than others?<div></div>

[Keldo]

3-4 supports + 2-3 dps is probably best. Rangers only benefit from things that add procs really, and obviously str and int.  Most of their damage comes from proccing things off their bow due to insane proc rates.  So poison, any items they have that add procs, any buffs that add procs, and int to make them do the most damage.  Then STR for the CAs themselves.  They don't, for example, benefit from + DPS, Haste, things like that.  At least not nearly as much as other melee.You want 1 healer, 1 buffer, a couple tanks (if you don't have lots of extra tanks, just sub DPS here or another support), couple or three DPS.  Rangers you can put in caster blast groups, thats where most int buffs are gonna be anyway.<div></div>

[Tezeric]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Ideal for a MT raid grp i think is as follows:</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Zerker--fury--dirge--inquis--mystic--monk--illusionist</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Obviously you can sub in the good type for the bad type for just slight differences....  ie defiler or mystic...troub or dirge....but to me this set up makes the most since.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">If your looking for swashy's ideal grp--obviously this will vary a bit...</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Zerker--fury--dirge--swashy--conj--coercer is a nice combo </font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Tezeric</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">60 swashy  </font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">butcherblock server</font></p><p><font size="3" color="#99ff33"></font> </p><p><font size="3" color="#99ff33"></font> </p><p><font size="3"></font> </p><p>Message Edited by Tezeric on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:37 PM</span></p>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Ah well.</p><p>We usually stick all our Rangers with a Troubador if we can, that's our DPS group.</p><p>Troubs have a group aggro reducer, plus procs from Aria, plus haste plus power regen.  But the main thing is the aggro reducer.</p><p>If it's an AE raid they also get a group healer, either Priest or Pally.  If not, they shouldn't need one, the aggro reduction is enough to stop them pulling unwanted aggro.    If the AE is a DoT, we try to give them someone with the appropriate group cure.  Must keep DPS group alive.  Spare slots in that group get taken up with sorcerors, then summoners.</p><p>We rarely have more than 1 swashy, and I consider them more of a debuff class on raids than a DPS class.  I'm not saying their DPS is not good enough, our swashy usually beats the Wizards.  But the swashy debuffs are more important to the raid than their DPS.  Much more important.</p><p>I'm happy to stick the swashy in the MT group for aggro transfer, and because the MT group usually has the best defensive buffs.  Must keep swashy alive too.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:00 PM</span></p>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Keldoth wrote:Illusionist proc he was referring to was probably Prismatic Havoc (or whatever upgrade is) that procs up to 3 times 600-800 damage on successful attacks.  Damage is registered to illusionist, but with multiple hit attacks you can get more than 3 fires out of it.  Works especially good with bruiser + illusionist for 8 procs off their 100 slap line.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It could be Dynamism, which procs off 'Hostile Spells' and the damage is attributed to the buffee not the Illusionist.</p><p>It definitely used to proc off poisons (and damage shields).  I guess I'll need to check up on that.</p><p>But yes Havoc works best if grouped with a Bruiser type.</p><p>Message Edited by Belizarius on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:08 PM</span></p>

[Tezeric]

<div></div><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">I wouldn't put myself in MT grp most of time beacause we really don't offer anykind of buffs for tank or grp...just the hate transfer, which, from my understanding the dirges have something similar.  I am usually put in the MA grp and use my hate tranfer on that grp's tank.   With my sweet line on debuff's and nice DPS  we are invaluable to a raid--but the debuffs work from any place in the raid.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Tezeric</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">60swashy</font></p><p><font color="#99ff33" face="Comic Sans MS">Butcherblock server  </font></p>

[Gandof82]

<div></div><p>here is some info of scout debuffs , might help you out!</p><p> </p><p><img src="http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/2839/142950-1.gif"></p><p> </p><p>Tikku , lvl 60 Brigand on Splitpaw</p>

[-Llama-]

<div></div>Our hate transfer is FAR superior to dirge/coercer hate increaser. Our transfer give the tank 20ish % of ALL our hate, any time we do anything. This gives the tank a constant stream of hate, even when they are between taunts or are getting resisted. A hate increaser simply makes the target produce more hate I.E. a taunt that normal is 100 hate, would do 134 hate with a 34% increaser on. I find myself in the MT group quite often against orange epics because I act like superglue to the tank.

[Arody]

<div></div><div></div><p>My guild kinda rolls with</p><p> </p><p>1. Guardian</p><p>2. Defiler (best healer in the game)</p><p>3.Coercer</p><p>4.Conjuror</p><p>5.Swashie</p><p>6.Either an Assassin/Ranger which ever is being nicer to the GL (me) the conj at the time....</p><p>sometimes i play my swashie for the raids but we have an active one so not normally</p><p>Message Edited by Arodynn on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:41 AM</span></p>

[Success]

<div></div><p>That chart is interesting.</p><p>It shows Brigands are HUGE debuffers. MUCH better than Swashbucklers.</p><p>Brigands = almost 46k in debuff points on top of being able ot avoid ALL AOE.</p><p>Swashbuckler = about 5k in debuff points.</p><p>I thought we were supposed to be kings of debuff?</p><p>Just goes to show you how much attention and power Brigands have and why you should roll a brigand.</p>

[Gandof82]

<div>dont forget the fact that brigand has only 1 crappy AE CA and 1 crappy ranged CA , we are only for single target , u can do good AE dmg too , so dont start rolling brigs just yet, both classes have their pros and cons</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Tikku , lvl 60 Brigand on Splitpaw</div>

[Belizarius]

<div></div><p>Heh.</p><p>Our guild doesn't have any raiding Dirges or Brigands at the moment (largely because we started out as a Qeynos only guild).  I'd certainly consider a Dirge for MT group if we had one.</p><p>My preferred MT group with the players we have now is actually</p><p>Guardian, Swashy, Coercer, Templar, Mystic, Druid.  Sometimes we swap the Swashy for a Pally if the MT needs even more mitigation.</p>

[Success]

I have one crapy AOE and one half way decent one. The half way decent one though has a 1 minute reuse timer. So basically, I get to use it once. The other is 30 sec but it don't do that much.We have the same ranged as Brigands.<p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:10 PM</span></p>

[Luk]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:We have the same ranged as Brigands.<p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>didn't know Brigands got an equivalent to HoS, kinda pointless since they don't need to joust.

[Gandof82]

<div>u do have hurricane too and that lvl 55 hail of steel or what it was ranged art , if im not totally mistaken ,</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Tikku , lvl 60 Brigand on Splitpaw</div>

[Iseabeil]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Llama- wrote:<div></div>Our hate transfer is FAR superior to dirge/coercer hate increaser. Our transfer give the tank 20ish % of ALL our hate, any time we do anything. This gives the tank a constant stream of hate, even when they are between taunts or are getting resisted. A hate increaser simply makes the target produce more hate I.E. a taunt that normal is 100 hate, would do 134 hate with a 34% increaser on. I find myself in the MT group quite often against orange epics because I act like superglue to the tank.<hr></blockquote><p>Unfortunatly, the assassain version transfers 29% at M1 compaired to our 23% at M1, as we get ours at 48 and they get theirs at 53. This will stay same in KoS aswell as we will get new at 62 and they at 67. First at tier8 will we have the superior hate transfer, despite us bein utility/dps and them bein pure dps. (note: Im not feeling they 'shouldnt' have this skill line, just that we if we had our upgrades at same level, it would make more sense to me.) Ah well, its not like any scout beside bards offer anythin substantial to MT groups besides occassionally on orange cons that keep resisting taunts, maybe that will change as they never adapted t6 raid encounters to the changes they made to orange encounters after DoF launch.</p><p>Oh, the big reason swashies have HoS and not brigs is cause of amazing reflexes, we need to joust and they dun. Im not sure what their superiourity on debuffs is based on, will have to chat up our brig someday bout it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Success]

<div></div>Well, yea, I wasn't counting HoS since of course, like you said, they get the avoid all AOE god skill and don't need HoS.

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><p>I thought we were supposed to be kings of debuff?</p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't recall this particular coronation... did I miss the invite?</p><p>You also conveniently ignore things like -35%dps debuff and -56 casting and attack skill debuff (which Brigs have no equiv. of) on the part of Swashbucklers. Or the fact that Brigands have no hate transfer. Or the Swash debuff of int/wis.... or... or... or...</p><p>You have to look at the whole picture, unless it's simply a hissy fit you're after.</p>

[hoop]

<div></div><div>PLZ PLZ PLZ, do not come here and act if brigands do not bring more than swashes do, im talkin about in a raid situation. Ohh look i have lung puncture, i would like some1 to prove to me it actually does something plz, seeing is believing. 35% dps reduc mystics get that also along with another class, dnt kno it off the top o my head. not to mention its not that easy for us to keep our debuffs on being that we can be immune from all those ae's u guys dnt care about. Also if u need the 144 int debuff to win a fight, ull probly lose.</div><div> </div><div>u can ignore AE's</div><div>u can do more damage</div><div>u have better debuffs</div><div> </div><div>tell me what we have that is better than urs.</div><div> </div><div>hoopdee </div>

[Keldo]

Well if you want to play that game, enchanters debuff all magical resistances and clerics + hex doll can debuff physical just as effectively as a brigand can.-35 % dps, -56 skills certainly aren't as visible as say when dispatch is used, but that doesn't make them any worse.  I'm sure parsing would show it if someone took the time to do it (but most of  you guys just care about damage).Aggro is extremely difficult for a Brigand, much moreso than a Swash, roll one up and try it if you don't believe me.AE avoid won't be specific to Brigands in the future, I'm sure we will see more classes gaining that ability in the expansion.  They know that keeping it on one class is unbalanced.<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>hoopde wrote:<div></div><p>i personally like me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, troub, dirge, fury,conj,coercer. now thats just if im bein greedy and tryin to max out swash dps, not the best set up to be beneficial for all.</p><hr></blockquote>Hoopdee, you'd never get this group in your dreams!  You belong in the short bus group, n00b swash! :smileytongue:  On topic though, without a troub, you don't really have a dps group, because there's no way you can maximize your dps and not get agro otherwise.

[Luk]

<div></div><p>this thread was started to ask a question. Serious Question: Ideal Raid DPS Group, as the thread title states.</p><p>if you want to go into who has the best debuffs, go to the I have the biggest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] forum, every debuff helps, no matter how small or insignificant it may seem, go take your syndrome elsewhere and stick to the topic.</p>

[hoop]

<div></div><p>aggro is a joke in this if u kno how to set up your raid, so dnt gimme you guys have better aggro management.  Also i would do a parse of the mobs damage if iI had a personal mystic healing/warding me the entire time so i could keep my debuffs on all the time.</p><p>hoopdee</p>

[hoop]

<div></div><p>back to the thread topic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>troub</p><p>ranger</p><p>ranger</p><p>conj</p><p>conj</p><p>coercer maybe cuz their sic dps boost and haste</p><p>you dont have to worry about a healer cuz no1 jousts.</p><p>hoopdee</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Luk]

<div></div><p>just for some variety</p><p>Troubie</p><p>Conj</p><p>Necro</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Wizzy</p><p>Coercer</p><p>Both Conj and Necro with their fire pets out.....</p><p>OMG this would rock</p>

[WikiView]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ddrak wrote:Fury gives 10 seconds of +50% dps/attack speed, and buffs intInquisitor gives permanent +30% dpsDirge gives +20% dps + cacophony of blades + procs + attack skills / strength etc etc<b>Illusionist buffs intel, adds proc damage, and can haste permanently +47% (very nice on swash with dps boosters in place)</b>Bruiser does good damage on thier own and they add +20% dps to groupBerserker adds str, +dps/+attack speed proc + some short duration stuff thats niceYour Ideal for making 1 Swashbuckler deal massive DPS would beIllusionist (proc, int + haste), Inquisitor (+30% dps), Bruiser (+20% dps), Dirge (skills, dps, cacophony), conj/nec/wiz for proc (this really is not much dps overall tho)That would give you permanently: +47% attack speed, +70% dps, +120 or more str, +20-30 to attack skills, + proc damage. You are basically hitting cap on haste, dps, attack skils and str, with added procs.Normally on our raids we have set up like this:MT group: 3 different priests, coercer, tank, conj/pal/bardMaster Blaster group: Conj, Nec, Wiz, Warlock, Troubador, FuryGroup Superior Range: Inquis, Ranger, Brigand, Conj, Bruiser, Assassin/Ranger (short on rangers sadly)Group Ground Pounder: Dirge, Inquis, Illusionist, Swash, Assassin, BruiserWorks out fairly well, hit 10,500 DPS as a raid last night which was our best so far.<hr></blockquote>that must be a weak illu... my alt illu (at lvl 45) buffs atkspeed by 48% (master1) and its not the final one.. u get another one at lvl 57(?) witch buffs 67%atkspeed ftw</span><div></div>

[Success]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><p>I thought we were supposed to be kings of debuff?</p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't recall this particular coronation... did I miss the invite?</p><p>You also conveniently ignore things like -35%dps debuff and -56 casting and attack skill debuff (which Brigs have no equiv. of) on the part of Swashbucklers. Or the fact that Brigands have no hate transfer. Or the Swash debuff of int/wis.... or... or... or...</p><p>You have to look at the whole picture, unless it's simply a hissy fit you're after.</p><hr></blockquote><p>No I didn't ignore the -56 (times 7 I think), that was added in. The 35% DPS was hard to figure into numbers and I didn't figure anything like that from Brigands also.</p><p>I was comparing straight debuff numbers and I included everything listed. Now, if you can figure out how to list 35% DPS as pure debuff numbers so that it's consistent among all mobs, go for it.</p><p>Calculate it yourself if you don't like my numbers. They are pretty darn close. Even if you got EXACT, there would still be a HUGE difference.</p><p>Actually, Lung Puncture is very useful. When used, the MT is taking a lot less damage than without it. If the MT is taking 5k or so without it, when I put it on, they take about 3k or so. That helps a LOT. 35% DPS is not bad. All the others are soso and other classes can do better.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:47 PM</span></p>

[Twobox]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Syrano wrote:<div>I've found some stuff here and there by running searches but nothing with a good Swash focus that's focused on this subject.  I've heard a lot of theories, not seen a lot of facts.  I'm trying to piece together what the ideal DPS group is on a raid, specifically in regards to Swashes and to a lesser degree other Scouts.</div><div> </div><div>I'll start the discussion by stating that I'm not convinced throwing all the Rangers (go Norris!) in with the Swashies/Brigs is such a great idea.  I routinely get slapped in a group with an Inquisitor and 3-4 rangers.  As the "DPS" group.  This results in me having no attack buffs, no strength/agi buffs and no haste.  In essence, I debuff but don't worry about DPS.  As a result I routinely post pretty low numbers.  Meanwhile the rangers post their usual (they don't seem to need buffs as much).<hr></div></blockquote><p>To REALLY get back to the original questions . . . as a Swashie I haven't found much use for group attack-related buffs. Oh, they would help increase my DPS . . . help me right to certain death lol.</p><p>All of my aggro reducers are M1, as are all of my main combat arts. The 2 or 3 CA's that aren't are Adept 3. I can <strong>*absolutely*</strong> draw aggro at any time - without anyone else's buffs - unless I have some near-zero-dps-toon (some fighters, enchanters, bards, 24th-slot-fill-toon, or in a pinch even a healer) in the group so I can dump 23% of my hate. That's my personal top priority.</p><p>And that's why the DPSers are often left without buffers. Buffing them is often useless since if they are well-tooned they likely already exceed the capability of the MT to generate aggro.</p><p>So, if you are posting low numbers because you draw aggro, your MT is really bad, and attack-buffs won't help you. If you are just posting low numbers, then you are either not-well-equipped or not playing your Toon for max-DPS.</p><p>So, <strong><em>my</em></strong> ideal DPS group is one that can minimize <strong><em>my</em></strong> hate generation, and I'm sure the other DPS-types feel the same way. That's the most effective way to increase our actual DPS. I guess that makes the Troub (Alin's Tranquil Serenade) or the Pally (Amends) the Swashy's best friend.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:05 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:47 PM</span></p>

[SageGaspar]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Twobox wrote:<blockquote><hr>Syrano wrote:<div>I've found some stuff here and there by running searches but nothing with a good Swash focus that's focused on this subject.  I've heard a lot of theories, not seen a lot of facts.  I'm trying to piece together what the ideal DPS group is on a raid, specifically in regards to Swashes and to a lesser degree other Scouts.</div><div> </div><div>I'll start the discussion by stating that I'm not convinced throwing all the Rangers (go Norris!) in with the Swashies/Brigs is such a great idea.  I routinely get slapped in a group with an Inquisitor and 3-4 rangers.  As the "DPS" group.  This results in me having no attack buffs, no strength/agi buffs and no haste.  In essence, I debuff but don't worry about DPS.  As a result I routinely post pretty low numbers.  Meanwhile the rangers post their usual (they don't seem to need buffs as much).<hr></div></blockquote><p>To REALLY get back to the original questions . . . as a Swashie I haven't found much use for group attack-related buffs. Oh, they would help increase my DPS . . . help me right to certain death lol.</p><p>All of my aggro reducers are M1, as are all of my main combat arts. The 2 or 3 CA's that aren't are Adept 3. I can <strong>*absolutely*</strong> draw aggro at any time - without anyone else's buffs - unless I have some near-zero-dps-toon (some fighters, enchanters, bards, 24th-slot-fill-toon, or in a pinch even a healer) in the group so I can dump 23% of my hate. That's my personal top priority.</p><p>And that's why the DPSers are often left without buffers. Buffing them is often useless since if they are well-tooned they likely already exceed the capability of the MT to generate aggro.</p><p>So, if you are posting low numbers because you draw aggro, your MT is really bad, and attack-buffs won't help you. If you are just posting low numbers, then you are either not-well-equipped or not playing your Toon for max-DPS.</p><p>So, <strong><em>my</em></strong> ideal DPS group is one that can minimize <strong><em>my</em></strong> hate generation, and I'm sure the other DPS-types feel the same way. That's the most effective way to increase our actual DPS. I guess that makes the Troub (Alin's Tranquil Serenade) or the Pally (Amends) the Swashy's best friend.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:05 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:47 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><span>I actually had a question related to this. Last night I took my Swash on his first raid (Spirits of the Lost), I'm 53, MT was a 60 Guardian. I was in a DPS group with a Dirge and a Zerker, both had their melee buffs up. I started off using Adeste's and another debuff poison (I think pierce/crush) with no swarthy diversion, and I began to notice that I was pulling aggro a lot more than usual. I quickly learned that ID would be an almost instant aggro pull (used it at 10% and the mob turned on me right as it died), and using more than one or two CAs per fight continually would also pull aggro, even with Evade.Eventually we got up to one mob, I was just autoattacking and using three CAs on a loop with evades, after my second evade refresh the mob turned on me, I hit shadow slip and it flipped over to a monk, the monk feigned and it turned back to me. This seemed nuts after I had ditched all that aggro, so I ended up finishing out the raid with no DPS poison and using auto-attack and using a very, very limited CA rotation. I also put Swarthy on the healer after that, but I was nervous about doing too much damage and getting people [Removed for Content], so I just did that limited rotation. Needless to say, this wasn't terribly satisfying.I was wondering if any of this was due to the group setup and if anyone's used similar setups before without yoinking aggro. At this point I can't imagine using ID at all except to burn down a mob at the end.</span></div>

[Luk]

<div></div><p>To make a full assessment of this I would need to know what level your detaunts are at, what level the tanks taunts are at and what you group was and what the MT group was, just on the info given though, I would seriously look at the tanks ability. If you dropped slip, and it went to another toon, then back to you, the tank didn't have much aggro up.</p>

[Ri]

<div></div><p>If you're looking at a dps group, I'd go with bruiser, zerker, swashy, fury, dirge, and probably a brigand or assassin.</p><p>The fury mainly for the fae fire line.  Group melee proc that deals ~120ish damage every hit for 3 hits for everyone in group.  With the inq though, I wonder if the +dps increase is more than the fae line overall for the fury. . .</p>

[Arja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>WikiView wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ddrak wrote:Fury gives 10 seconds of +50% dps/attack speed, and buffs intInquisitor gives permanent +30% dpsDirge gives +20% dps + cacophony of blades + procs + attack skills / strength etc etc<b>Illusionist buffs intel, adds proc damage, and can haste permanently +47% (very nice on swash with dps boosters in place)</b>Bruiser does good damage on thier own and they add +20% dps to groupBerserker adds str, +dps/+attack speed proc + some short duration stuff thats niceYour Ideal for making 1 Swashbuckler deal massive DPS would beIllusionist (proc, int + haste), Inquisitor (+30% dps), Bruiser (+20% dps), Dirge (skills, dps, cacophony), conj/nec/wiz for proc (this really is not much dps overall tho)That would give you permanently: +47% attack speed, +70% dps, +120 or more str, +20-30 to attack skills, + proc damage. You are basically hitting cap on haste, dps, attack skils and str, with added procs.Normally on our raids we have set up like this:MT group: 3 different priests, coercer, tank, conj/pal/bardMaster Blaster group: Conj, Nec, Wiz, Warlock, Troubador, FuryGroup Superior Range: Inquis, Ranger, Brigand, Conj, Bruiser, Assassin/Ranger (short on rangers sadly)Group Ground Pounder: Dirge, Inquis, Illusionist, Swash, Assassin, BruiserWorks out fairly well, hit 10,500 DPS as a raid last night which was our best so far.<hr></blockquote><strong><u>that must be a weak illu... my alt illu (at lvl 45) buffs atkspeed by 48% (master1) and its not the final one.. u get another one at lvl 57(?) witch buffs 67%atkspeed ftw</u></strong></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Blatent Lies. At level 45 your Haste spell is level 34 Celerity which at Master 2 only buffs attack speed for 42%. At level 48 you get Legerity, our latest haste buff, which at Adept3 buffs for 49%, i believe its 52% at Master 1.</p><p>On the Subject, our DPS Group used to be purely mage based plus a Ranger.</p><p>Ranger</p><p>Illusionist</p><p>Wizard</p><p>Conjuror</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Wizard (Sometimes a Fury)</p><p>Our Wizards and Warlock are greatly helped by Transient Sentiment line which raises INT astronomically and also increases Spell level and Focus. Warlocks also have a +5 Level Spell buff. The Ranger's procs would go nuts from Dynamism and INT buffs, plus haste.</p><p>Im not too sure if this was ideal but our Raid had superb DPS.</p><p>Our MT Group consisted of:</p><p>1 Tank (Guardian)</p><p>1 Tank Buffer (Paladin)</p><p>3 Healers (Fury, Warden, Defilar)</p><p>1 MT Regen/Buffs (Dirge)</p><p>Our Tank would easily get more than 10K hit points and insane Mitigation/Resists.</p>