ID

[ilucife]

ok its been over a month now, we get the point, merry christmas, yay there is an expansion, now plz fix Inspired Daring!in all honesty this is really upsetting me, its really not a hard issue to fix, put off hand procs back, lower poison procs to 10%........... 40% of your customer base is happy again. at this point i can handle other classes being uber, bruisers can solo Court of Alafaz by themselves, Rangers can solo both Barakah and Simyak at the same time by themselves with a yo-yo and a spatula, and thats fine.... just plz make a skill that "procs off of every melee" actually proc off of every melee.<div></div>

[-Llama-]

<div>I can solo above zones/mobs with a spoon. NERF ME!!!</div>

[Syrano]

<div></div><p>Roll a ranger! Everyone wants to be a Ranger! Gooooooooo  Rangers!</p><p> </p><p>Seriously, I still love ID, but I am curious if DPS wise it really competes.  If you factor in casting time (which is atrocious), I really wonder if it's average DPS over the length of its duration actually is better than the DPS we can do normally.  Methinks if its better, its not much better.  But I need to run some controlled tests.  Most of my spot checks show ID actually decreasing my overall DPS when activated.</p>

[Keyh]

<span><blockquote><hr>iluciferi wrote:ok its been over a month now, we get the point, merry christmas, yay there is an expansion, now plz fix Inspired Daring!in all honesty this is really upsetting me, its really not a hard issue to fix, put off hand procs back, lower poison procs to 10%........... 40% of your customer base is happy again. at this point i can handle other classes being uber, bruisers can solo Court of Alafaz by themselves, Rangers can solo both Barakah and Simyak at the same time by themselves with a yo-yo and a spatula, and thats fine.... just plz make a skill that "procs off of every melee" actually proc off of every melee.<hr></blockquote>Here's how they'll fix it....ready?Current Description:"Inspired daring grants the Swashbuckler an opportunity to strike with additional piercing damage with every melee attack for 13 seconds""Fixed":"</span><span>"Inspired daring grants the Swashbuckler an opportunity to strike with additional piercing damage with <font color="#ff0000">every primary weapon attack</font> for 13 seconds""</span><div></div>

[Krakenap]

<div>Lets just make a couple of guesses here and see what ID does.  I've been thinking about parsing it for a while since the nerf and see if it does make a difference.When soloing now I've been hitting ID before the encounter so I don't have to take that 3 second hit mid fight.  That hurts since I'm not hasted.I'm also going to assume you throw on Ingenious Finesse as well.</div><div>Okay, here's some numbersYou are using 1.2 second primary (off hand, who cares)You have a 100% haste so you have 2 hits every 1.2 seconds.</div><div>So with ID the best thing is basically to let it autoattack and use Fury and Uncanny if they are up (this gives you 5 attacks in 1.5 seconds which are typically of higher damage).So over 1.5 seconds you have done 5 attacks which will average around 350 damage.Over the remaining 11.5 seconds you have done 20 additional attacks which average around 150 damage. You also have a 30% chance to proc an interrupt (8 attacks) @ 113 damage.  I think ID will proc on an interrupt but I'm not sure.Lets assume it does, just in case.  So that's 33 attacks and 33 IDs (average 223 damage) for 7359 damage.</div><div>So your total damage is approximately:</div><div>5 * 350 = 17508 * 113 = 90420 * 150 = 300033 * 223 = 7359</div><div>Total = 13013 damage in 16 seconds (3 seconds lost for use of ID) or 813 dps.</div><div>If I'm wrong and ID doesn't proc on the interrupt then it's 11229 which is 702 dps.</div><div>I'll parse this and see how accurate it is.  I usually find in raids that when I pop ID my average DPS is higher at the end of ID than before I popped it.</div><div> </div><div>I think that the sad part is that using our best ability we still can't match what rangers or assassin can sustain over a long fight (1000 dps).</div>

[Serindyl]

<div></div><p>ID is sadly nowhere near what it used to be.  I cast the haste, then ID, and wait in autoattack for the big numbers to show, and I wait in almost numerical silence.  I throw the two multi-attacks (sorry, bad with names) and it seems only they are doing the damage.  We were never a contender for T1 DPS, but this gave us a wow when it was available -- certainly, even in its glory days, would never threaten T1 DPS classes, but alas, there it is now:  a sad, toothless old man flailing flacid arms about, not even disturbing the wind.</p><p>I will wait for KoS to see what T7 skills bring.  I don't know why this class had to be beaten into the earth.  Post LU13, people still overlooked this class mostly, for when rolling scout alts, they usually went ranger, brigand, or one of the bards.  I have had a swashbuckler since the days of beta, but it has been relegated now to gathering rares for my alts.</p>

[-Llama-]

<div>One note Kra, You can't be hasted below .8 delay, so you would maximize DPS using a 1.6 delay weap with 100% haste.</div>

[Keldo]

<div></div>Here's some parses and graphs from raids just to give you an idea - it does certainly spike our DPS, thinking it doesn't is foolish.(1137994833)[Mon Jan 23 00:40:33 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Tremblar the Behemoth for 331 points of piercing damage.  (START)(1137994845)[Mon Jan 23 00:40:45 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Tremblar the Behemoth for 298 points of piercing damage. (END)<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/tremblarID.jpg">Total Damage: 5607 | Average Hit: 329 | # of hits: 17 | Rank vs other types: 3(1137977645)[Sun Jan 22 19:54:05 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits The Prismatic Captain for 392 points of piercing damage. (START)(1137977657)[Sun Jan 22 19:54:17 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits The Prismatic Captain for 516 points of piercing damage. (END)<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/IDpriscaptain.jpg">Total Damage: 7938 | Average Hit: 441 | # of hits: 18 | Rank vs other types: 2(1137979547)[Sun Jan 22 20:25:47 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Maestra of Dissonance for 426 points of piercing damage. (START)(1137979555)[Sun Jan 22 20:25:55 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Maestra of Dissonance for 428 points of piercing damage. (END)(Yes I screwed up and used it too late sue me~)<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/maestraID.jpg">Total Damage: 7338 | Average Hit: 407 | # of hits: 18 | Rank vs other types: 3(1137980327)[Sun Jan 22 20:38:47 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits The Purple Piper for 368 points of piercing damage. (START)(1137980335)[Sun Jan 22 20:38:55 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits The Purple Piper for 414 points of piercing damage. (END)2 fights in a row ;/<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/piperID.jpg">Total Damage: 7331 | Average Hit: 407 | # of hits: 18 | Rank vs other types: 3(1137983662)[Sun Jan 22 21:34:22 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Moonchild for 348 points of piercing damage. (START)(1137983674)[Sun Jan 22 21:34:34 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Moonchild for 431 points of piercing damage. (END)I ate an AE and died during this fight case you didn't notice (which is sad because I time the ae and noone else got hit)<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/IDmoonchild.jpg">Total Damage: 7080 | Average Hit: 372 | # of hits: 18 | Rank vs other types: 2(1137386734)[Sun Jan 15 23:45:34 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Moonchild for 338 points of piercing damage. (START)(1137386747)[Sun Jan 15 23:45:47 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Moonchild for 285 points of piercing damage. (END)<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/moonchild.jpg">Total Damage: 7303 | Average HIt: 347 | # of hits: 21 | Rank vs other types: 4(1137374136)[Sun Jan 15 20:15:36 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Tremblar the Behemoth for 409 points of piercing damage. (START)(113737414<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sun Jan 15 20:15:48 2006] YOUR Daring Attack hits Tremblar the Behemoth for 421 points of piercing damage. (END)<img src="http://thehgl.com/keldo/parse/tremblarID2.jpg">Total Damage: 7418 | Average Hit: 350 | # of hits 21 | Rank vs other types: 3I can get some single group stuff if you want, but they are far less interesting (no mob is alive more than 12 seconds if you use ID, generally).  It lost a lot of its bite, sure, but it is still far from useless.And I outparse assassins, brigands, necromancers, warlocks and wizards on a consistant basis.  Rangers generally outparse me by 200 DPS, and Conjurors are generally 50-100 ahead.  So T1? Not really, but hurting? Certainly not as bad as you make it sound.<div></div>

[Krakenap]

<div></div><p>Lemme ask a couple of questions on those parses:</p><p>1 - what weapon(s) do you use?2 - what's your str at?3 - what's your typical group make up in those raids?  (i.e. are you normally buffed in str and have mage procs and such?)</p>

[Keldo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>STR - more than 420On those raids I am in a group that almost always looks like this:Inquisitor, Assassin, Dirge, Bruiser, myself, Berserkerand I use Silverthorn / Cobalt Leaf Blade on non piercing immune mobs, 2 cobalt on piercing immunes.<div></div><p>Also worthy of note, that graph does not show total DPS, it shows DPS plotted over time.  My total DPS is usually 600-700 on fights longer than 2 minutes, and 800-1000 on fights shorter than 90 seconds.</p><p>The huge spike at the end of Piper is Cacophony of Blades + ID at the same time btw<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:06 AM</span></p>

[Krakenap]

<div></div><p>See I find it sad... I can't come close to that damage in a raid right now.  I have better weapons: Shortsword of Sorrow and Silverthorn.  My Strength is usually around the 350 mark in most raids, occasionally I'll hit 400 and my group if I'm lucky I'll get a wizard for additional damage but most of the time I don't have anyone giving me additional procs.  I figure I'm DPSing around the 400 mark and I'm not happy about it.</p><p>I know I geared myself up incorrectly for T6 (too much agility) so I'm going to have to regear towards strength in T7. </p>

[Keldo]

<div></div>Well, all melee DPS on raids is heavily dependant on group construction.The reason I get so high is due to our high innate self haste ability and the + DPS boosts from Inquis (30% at M1), Bruiser (18%ish), Berserker (proc 16%).If your guild's group maker doesn't set you in a group they either underestimate you or think it is unimportant.  Rangers for example can function at high DPS in basically any group because 70% of their DPS is stream + procs.  Putting them in a group like this would not show a great increase like it would for us.  I would recommend talking to them.In my case its not a problem, cuz I make the groups!  I see a trend with lots of raids in EQ2 where the MT/OT group is optimized, but the DPS is just sorta throw it wherever.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:02 AM</span></p>

[Chuut]

<div></div><div>Sorry to be off topic, but what parser are you using?</div><div> </div><div>thanks</div>

[Keldo]

<div></div><a href="http://parsemania.chase.net.au/" target="_blank">http://parsemania.chase.net.au/</a><div></div>

[Syrano]

<div></div><p>I don't doubt that it spikes our DPS.  I was refering to "average" DPS over time, especially in long fights.  To properly prep for ID you need to pop Igneous Finesse, then ID at the least.  Total casting time for these two combined is what? 5 or 6 seconds?  Then you get the ID run for 22 seconds, assuming you can stay in contact with your target the whole time.  So ID's damage needs to be averaged over 30 seconds or so, not it's run.</p><p>While ID is running it is inefficient to use other skills, because the casting time of other skills will prevent ID.  Again I need to parse and think and average.  The stuff here is very intriguing, the spikes are obvious.  Total damage output is also something I want to consider.  How much damage can I do with ID versus other skills.  Factoring in Mastery abilities as well as poisons etc.</p><p>And I agree, getting placed in the wrong group can completely hose our DPS abilities.  Routinely on raids I'm put in a group with 5 scouts and a healer (usually non-inquisitor) which destroys our damage output in comparison.  It also eliminates our abilities to off-load aggro.  Given that you can't stack aggro transfers (thanks to unclear stacking/precedence rules) even 1 healer, 4 scouts and a tank is a bad set up.  However, as a general rule, the highest prioritiy group is the MT group.</p>

[Keldo]

I have some longer fights I can post, they are from an alt raid on Al-Afaz.  I was not in an optimal group and overall raid DPS is terrible (3 minutes on Wolan, Brius, Captain compared to 1 minute in normal raid).  I also have parses from Wolan (he's pierce immune, thus no ID).Interested in any of those?  Also I don't generally use finess with ID, in fact finess ends up doing not much of anything because I'm hitting caps in haste and dps already.<div></div>

<span><blockquote><hr>-Llama- wrote:<div>One note Kra, You can't be hasted below .8 delay, so you would maximize DPS using a 1.6 delay weap with 100% haste.</div><hr></blockquote>Is that official? Where doas that information come from? very curious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span>

[Keyh]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr> wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>-Llama- wrote:<div>One note Kra, You can't be hasted below .8 delay, so you would maximize DPS using a 1.6 delay weap with 100% haste.</div><hr></blockquote>Is that official? Where doas that information come from? very curious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><hr></blockquote>I honestly believe that's incorrect, I remember hearing that .6 was the magical number for delay. I will find the topic.<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=5673&query.id=6797#M5673" target="_blank">Clicky</a>That topic discusses it briefly.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Keyh on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:12 PM</span></p>

[ilucife]

im not sure about the .8 delay, bravado proc alone is 58%(ive heard this stacks and ingnores normal haste rules), 15% fbss, finesse 28% thats over 100%, then you factor in group buffs. if you solo a mob and hit your haste buffs and watch damge you hit alot more than 2 times in one second. i dont really know but that seems like alot of wasted haste if you ask me,<div></div>

[overfloat]

<div></div><p>I've never seen any solid information, calculations or parses to demonstrate any minimum hasted delay. 0.8s and 0.6s are the favourites you'll see on the boards but I have no idea where those originated from.</p><p> </p><p> </p>