Avoid Censure now broke

[Naggyba]

Because of the 2nd hand proc nerf, Avoid Censure no longer works like it should. I now get hate jsut by breathing on the mob. With it on and my hate buff on the main tank, I get agro just from one or two debuffs. It's really bad now. The hate buff is supposed ot allow us to use our debuffs/CAs but it's no longer doing it's job because Avoid Censure is no longer procing like it did.This needs to be fixed now. I get agro worst than a wizard going all out on the initial pull.This is just one skill that is now broke because of the 2nd weapon proc nerf.

[Darchon6]

<DIV>Use a one handed weapon.  Not only do you deal more dps (by procing 3x more often than dual wield), but you'll have an extra edge on avoidance if the mob switches aggro toward you.  Zalek's shield is a good one to have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE still hasn't fixed dual wield properly.  Damage rating only affects your auto attack damage - which consists of maybe 25% of your total dps.  Proc rate > damage rating.</DIV>

[DonSavan]

<DIV>why should we have to switch to a 1hander cause soe broke our DW?  One of my favorite things about being a swashy is dual wielding and now to do it is to [Removed for Content] yourself.</DIV>

[Naggyba]

Exactly, I should not have ot switch to a lesser weapon because SOE broke stuff as usual.One handed = lower attack skill and lower damage.

[Beerserker]

Now now, everybody just calm down lol. Let the system commence lol.

[liveja]

<P>Avoid CENSURE may not be working, but Avoid BLAME seems to be working just fine for me.</P>

[Success]

<P>Well, something changed. I too get a lot more agro after that 2nd hand proc change than ever before, even with hate buff on someone. A couple debuffs and hit and I am getting agro like mad. Not just here and there. It's constant. Several times a fight and every single mob.</P> <P>It's not the tank either. There was a distinct change in hate after that update. Very noticeable.</P>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Successer wrote:<BR> <P>Well, something changed. I too get a lot more agro after that 2nd hand proc change than ever before, even with hate buff on someone. A couple debuffs and hit and I am getting agro like mad. Not just here and there. It's constant. Several times a fight and every single mob.</P> <P>It's not the tank either. There was a distinct change in hate after that update. Very noticeable.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, there was a change:  the LU#16-LU#18 proc rates were insane compared to  (a) the LU#13-LU#16 <FONT size=1>(combat revamp - DW upgrade)</FONT> proc rates, and to  (b) their intended proc rates <FONT size=1>(per spell descriptions)</FONT>.</P> <P>LU#18 has returned proc rates to match points (a) and (b). You are now where you should have been all along. LU#16 allowed you to proc hate debuffs way more than intended -- yes, we all got used to that level of uber hate reduction but now we just need to adjust back to the post-combat revamp proc rates.</P> <P> </P> <P>I actually went through a bunch of raid logs last night and counted the number of Avoid Censure during each fight to see if it approximately matched the intended 20% proc rate. Result: yes it did, in all cases. I actually got as far as typing the data into a message here but ran out of patience and, feeling a little like a broken record anyway, canceled it.</P> <P>Try it yourselves. Rather than making subjective observations about how Avoid Censure and every other proc is suddenly "broken", go through your logs and count the number of procs over time and see what your results tell you. And no, don't just compare it to LU#16-LU#18 proc rates because we <U>know</U> they were too high -- compare your actual proc rates to the proc rates in the spell descriptions and see how well they match up.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>Edit: missing essential words from sentences... doh</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by overfloater on <span class=date_text>01-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span>

[Success]

<DIV>Counting the number of procs doesn't change the fact that we are getting hate like mad and hard to do our jobs as debuffers now when we are getting so much hate and dying. What purpose is the debuffs on our attacks if we can't use them due to so much hate now?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't need to count anything. I don't need a parse to tell me I am getting a LOT more hate than normal and dying a LOT more often trying to do my job. It's not subjective. It's fact. Me lying on the floor dead a lot more now is not subjective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They need to fix it.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Before the change, even with double procs, Avoid Censure alone was not enough to keep me from getting agro really quick. The ONLY thing that really helped was Swarthy diversion. Now, even that is not helping.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I am just agreeing with OP. I see the same thing. <SPAN class=time_text>There is nothing subjective about any of that.</SPAN></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class=date_text>01-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 PM</span>

[overfloat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Successer wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P><SPAN class=time_text>I am just agreeing with OP. I see the same thing. <SPAN class=time_text>There is nothing subjective about any of that.</SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The OP was saying that Avoid Censure isn't working properly because the LU#18 "nerf" "broke" it. I was saying that it's <U>not</U> broken, it's working just as intended -- you can see this for yourself by the current proc rates. It was broken <U>before</U> LU#18 when it was proccing twice as much as it should.</P> <P>Now... if you're having major aggro management issues and believe Avoid Censure needs either a higher innate proc rate or greater hate loss per proc in order to be balanced, that's a different issue and you're welcome to your opinion.</P> <P>Personally I've had no major aggro issues since LU#18. Yes, I've noticed that I do have to be more careful -- I can't just spam all CAs and expect to remain unnoticed like I could from LU#16-LU#18 (but then, nor can any other subclass) -- but I can still put out great DPS and keep debuffs applied in both groups and raids without pulling aggro.The only time I've pulled aggro unintentionally/unexpectedly and got pummelled into the floor for it was on the last 800 (literally) health of an SC raid mob after I had fired ID for the kill -- I was lagging so bad that I had to zoom into first person and stare at the floor. I had fired Shadow Slip and Brazen Thrust before ID just to be safe... at least, I thought I had, but apparently with all the lag the click on Shadow Slip didn't actually take and I hadn't noticed because I was in first person view. Other than that, I've had no nasty aggro surprises and have had no issues maintaining good DPS and cycling debuffs.</P>

[Success]

<DIV>Well, seems like you are the only one since many people are saying the do have a lot more agro issues. Not just here, in other threads also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I know is what I see and I see the mobs turning on me a LOT more, even doing less CAs. My DPS has dropped dramatically because I have to be that careful now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you raid PP2, Gates or ToL? It's even worst on the higher level mobs. It's not too bad on SC mobs and stuff closer to 60 level (although it still is worst, as you have seen). It's really dramatic on the 62+ mobs in these zones. Before the patch, I would get agro some but nothing like I am now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, they need to compensate. A 20% chance to proc is a 20% chance to proc. The description NEVER said 20% chance to proc on the primary hand like hurricane does. Since the 2nd hand no longer procs, they need to increase the amount of hate that is reduced when the primary hand does proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either that or fix what they broke with the 2nd hand proc nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I loose WAY too much DPS having to hold back and only do 3 CAs every 30 seconds or so and it's hard to do my debuff job lying on the floor all the time. I am dead serious on this, I am not exaggerating. Maybe it's the difference in the stuff you and I raid and what we use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[overfloat]

<DIV>Rather than repeat myself.... again... I just direct you to the other thread you and I posted on, as my reply there is relevant here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the answer to your raid questions is yes.</DIV>

[liveja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Counting the number of procs doesn't change the fact that we are getting hate like mad and hard to do our jobs as debuffers now when we are getting so much hate and dying.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Please speak for yourself, as I am very definitely not part of this "we" group.</p>

[-Llama-]

<div>I die 7-10 times a raid now due to aggro issues that recently arose, and I'm spamming hate reducers ASAP</div>

[Zygwen]

I hardly ever get agro on raids. The rangers on the other hand pull agro constantly.In groups I can and will pull agro but I'm smart enougth not to let that get me killed, most of the time.<div></div>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>No one said you were part of this WE group. Obviously a lot of other people are though, as has been posted by many people.</p><p>You are only level 51 and not dealing with high end raid content so of course you are not part of this WE group. When you get to 60 and get in a high end raiding guild, then you can become part of the WE group. Until then, you are not really affected and thus can't see what we see.</p><p>Fact is, MANY level 60 or so Swashbucklers that DO raid high end have all reported the same problem. It's not just me. Look all over the different forums.</p><p>PP2 is the worst place, with Gates of Aket Ahken and FoL being a very close 2nd. If I hit these mobs with more than 2 or 3 debuffs and autoattack every 30 seconds or so, then I get agro. That's with Swarthy Diversion on.</p><p>Before the patch, I could put Swarthy Diversion on and do my job at debuffing. Sure, I still had to control myself and not spam like mad.  I have always had to control myself some, not like now though. Now I have to hold WAY back and loose a lot of DPS and debuffs that don't get used because of agro issues.</p><p>We can sit here and debate this all day long. Those of us that raid high end content see this for a fact. We all are not just making this up for the heck of it. I have no reason to post here about an issue if it is not an issue. Those that raid in groups and low level still and not doing high end content, probably don't have an issue. All I know is what I see and i saw a huge change with the patch.</p><p>Just because you don't have an issue, does not mean I and many others that have posted here and other places, don't. It does not mean an issue does not exist. It just means it may be conditional and in certain zones it's worst or whatever.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 AM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div><strong>"SoE still hasn't fixed dual wield properly.  Damage rating only affects your auto attack damage"</strong> - That particular aspect of mechanics is very definately by desing and not broken. They want class abilities balanced in and of themselved having had too much experience with particular weapons totally distorting class balance both in previous games and in other games by other developers. Given the very wide range of abilities in game, it's completely necessary and was a huge mistake Blizzard made with WoW with a fraction of class abilities that they ended up having to implement a hack for.

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>You should not be having a hate problem, it is quite easy to maintain all the necessary debuffs without generating hate. Keep in mind most of the debuffs last significantly longer than the refresh timer for the skill. If you spam all your moves as fast as possible, then of course you will get hate, that is true of most damage dealing classes. If it wasn't true then the game would be broken, because there wouldn't be any thought needed, just hit the skill everytime it refreshes until you win.</p><p>Even with out the Avoid Censure line, Swashbucklers still have a lot of ways to shed hate. First off there is the standard Evade, not great, but it refreshes and casts fast. Then there is the Lie Low line, which does drop you down a threat level and turns off auto-attack, if you use this skill and stop doing anything, you should not have hate period. You are thrown down an entire threat level. Not to mention the fact we flat out transfer a good amount of hate to begin with through the Swarthy line. I don't think any other direct damage dealing class has it so good with hate loss abilities.</p><p>A class isn't broken because you can't spam all your moves at the beginning of a fight and it doesn't work or even that you can't use moves as frequently as you could in one group then your could with another. Swashbucklers are one of the easiest classes to control hate for, without sacrificing at a minimum maintaining the essential debuffs (like the -DPS% one you always want, but the -INT one isn't always necessary).</p><p>I swing hate my way every now and then, but rather than complain that a skill line is broken because it is no longer hideously overpowered, I change my tactics. I might slow down in the beginning and put out only the most important debuffs and slowly work the others in, or I might make sure to hit evade right after my first attack and every time I can or I might just spam all the debuffs and hit the Lie Low line if I am in a Shaman's group and wouldn't take damage before I could drop hate. If you stubbornly try to do the same thing over and over again and then complain that your tactics aren't working because a skill isn't absurdly and obviously overpowered, then maybe you should rethink what you are doing and why you keep getting hate.</p>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>You just confirmed what we have been saying. We had to severely cramp our DPS in order to not draw hate anymore. Thanks for confirming also.</p><p>So, I guess Swashbucklers now have to choose between debuffs, hate generation and DPS?</p><p>I know what my skills do. I play my class VERY well. I know my class inside and out, backwards and forwards. I know how not to draw hate, it's just now, Swarthy diversion along with Avoid Censure and the others, does not work like it did before the 2nd hand nerf. Hitting 2 or 3 key debuffs and then backing out, or SLOWLY moving in a few skills at a time, is NOT allowing us to be in our DPS tier that they promised us we would be in.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:02 PM</span></p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>So, I guess Swashbucklers now have to choose between debuffs, hate generation and DPS?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Er, basically... yeah.</p><p>You know, kinda like... every single other subclass in the game?</p><p>Rather than just repeating over and over and over that we're borked and nerfed and unable to match our intended DPS tier, how about providing some backup for your claims? Like... parses of these raids you keep complaining about so much, that would be a great start.</p><p>I don't know why you're having such bad issues. The other swashbucklers I raid are in the same boat as me according to parses: pulling good DPS -- not enough to match the rangers, but still clear above tier 3 -- without pulling aggro. </p>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><p>Then they must not be raiding PP2, Gates, FoL, etc.</p><p>Well, if they wanted us to be just debuffers or just DPS, then they should have designed the class where our melee skills didn't have debuffs. You can't debuff OR DPS is those skills are constantly getting you hate and you die.</p><p>This problem I am having only started after the 2nd hand patch. Sure, I got agro if I went all out like mad sometimes but, it was manageable. Now, it's not unless I cut out all but a few debuffs and attacks. My anti-agro skills can not refresh fast enough for me to loose agro either. I use them, loose agro and the mob turns back in a few hits.</p><p>I don't know why you can't accept the fact that I know what I see and know what has happened to me since the patch. I don't need parses or anything to show me that I am getting a LOT more agro now than before. I am not making this up for the hell of it. If I had no problem with agro, I wouldn't need to be posting about the problem.</p><p>Like the OP, many of us come here to bring up an issue that we are seeing and hopefully get someone to check into it and maybe help get it fixed, only to have one or two fellow players tell us that it's all in our heads, even when the majority of us posting see the problem.</p><p>If you don't have the problem, that's great. That does not mean the rest of us are not having the problem. Maybe it is situational in the mobs we are fighting and areas we are raiding but that doesn't mean there is not a problem, just not a problem for you and what you are doing.</p><p>It's like someone in the north saying they are having a problem with snow storms and someone in Florida saying wait, I don't have a problem, therefore, the problem is in your head. Let's see proof of your problem.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:35 PM</span></p>

[overfloat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I don't know why you can't accept the fact that I know what I see and know what has happened to me since the patch. I don't need parses or anything to show me that I am getting a LOT more agro now than before. I am not making this up for the hell of it. If I had no problem with agro, I wouldn't need to be posting about the problem.</p><p>Like the OP, many of us come here to bring up an issue that we are seeing and hopefully get someone to check into it and maybe help get it fixed, only to have one or two fellow players tell us that it's all in our heads, even when the majority of us posting see the problem.</p><hr></blockquote><p>You are so obtuse it makes my head hurt.</p><p>Point out to me where I have ever said it's in your head? Point out to me where I have said you're not having aggro issues?</p><p>I haven't.</p><p> </p><p>What I <u><strong>have</strong></u> said - repeatedly - is that I acknowledge you probably have less leeway with aggro now. You probably get aggro easier. Why? Because the pre-LU#18 proc rates were insane and now they're not insane. So yes, obviously you're proccing Avoid Censure less now than you were pre-LU#18. Obviously fewer AC procs means less aggro loss, means it's easier to pull aggro.</p><p>I agree with that. Do you understand now?</p><p> </p><p>What I don't agree with is people saying it's "broken since the 2nd hand patch". It's not broken. It's working properly. Check it for yourself. The Avoid Censure buff has a 20% chance to proc per 3 second period. That's how it's working according to my logs. That's how it's meant to work. I don't know how I can make it any clearer. The pre-LU#18 rates were "broken", for all intents and purposes, so comparing to them as if they're the official standard is pointless.</p><p>That in mind, you're approaching the issue from the wrong direction. AC is proccing at the correct rate. So, if you're still having aggro issues, that means that AC itself needs to be improved -- not the proc mechanism changed again. AC either needs to drop more hate per proc, or it needs its proc rate raised above 20%. <u><strong>That</strong></u> is what you need to be /feedbacking, if you're really having such bad aggro issues that you can't do tier 2 DPS (as in, between tier 1 and tier 3 according to parses, not a DPS figure you arbitrarily decide should be tier 2) and can't use more than 3 CAs every 30 seconds. I'm not denying that you're having those issues, but I am saying that Avoid Censure is working correctly.</p><p> </p><p>As an entirely separate observation, I am not having the same aggro issues as you. I do have to be more careful now than before LU#18 because I get aggro more easily, but I am not restricted to 3 CAs every 30 seconds, my debuffing ability is not being unduly hampered and my DPS is not being outdone or even matched by tier 3 (or lower) subclasses -- ergo I am tier 2.</p>

[Iseabeil]

<div>We can fling numbers at eachother as much as we want, it wont change the fact that:</div><div> </div><div>a: many players, including me, belive the changes to proc rates went overboard.</div><div> </div><div>b: the only official responce to the whole issue has been:</div><div> </div><div></div><blockquote><hr>In the current state, the only time an effect will proc from an offhand weapon is when the proc is on the item itself. Procs from poisons and buffs will only proc from the primary hand. As stated in the notes:Poisons (as well as other applied effects that have a chance to proc on a successful attack) now only trigger upon successful attacks made with the weapon in the primary hand. Note: Weapons with an inherent damage proc (like all crafted imbued weapons) are unaffected and will continue to proc regardless of which hand they are equipped in.I'm initiating discussion about the change to see if we need to change it so only poisons don't proc in the offhand or if any other changes are needed.<div></div><p><font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Blackguards post holds no hard data on the issue. He doesnt say that the current state of procs is there to stay, neither does he say they are a misstake.</p><p>Obviously, the issue is not firmly settled, no 3s love can make that statement into 'this is totally intended', and hopefully, we as players can do our part by reporting what we see with the hope that it will be settled sometime soon.</p><p> </p><p> </p><div></div>

[Success]

<div></div><div>The point I keep trying to make to you though is this. Let me see if I can put it differently.</div><div> </div><div>Avoid Censure's hate reduction was based on the amount of procs from primary AND secondary. It's description, unlike Hurricane, never said primary hand.</div><div> </div><div>So, if the amount of hate reduction we were getting before was being tested with both hands procing, then the 2nd hand proc was removed, then the hate reduction is now off from their test (if they tested it).</div><div> </div><div>Avoid Censure would STILL have a 20% chance to proc and it did with both hands. Now, it only has a 20% chance to proc with one hand, making it's hate reduction less than the original calculation over a period of time.</div><div> </div><div>How do you know Avoid Censure was procing too much before, unless you know exactly how much they planned on it procing to begin with? Are you privy to information the rest of us aren't? They said poison was procing too much now but they never said anything about Avoid Censure or other skills we had that were effected. The patch notes only said applied effects. They never specifically said that meant skill buffs.</div><div> </div><div>All this may be needless now since it appears they have done something.</div><div> </div><div>Last night in Gates raid, things were back to normal, compared to right after the 2nd hand nerf and the week that followed. There was a big difference between then and now.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:21 PM</span></p>

[Moonlance]

Alas the search function defeats me.

[Dakkon_10]

<span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: trebuchet ms,geneva"><i><b>We're swashbucklers, not necromancers. This thread died a year ago.</b></i></span>

[Krontak]

I'm not sure how any swashbuckler pulls aggro.  You've got swarthy disorder.  If your not in the MT group just dump your hate on a healer.  At M1 its dumping 27% hate.  That means if your doing 1000dps it only feels like 777dps to the mob.  On top of that, you've got avoid censure.  On pull, regardless if I'm in the Mt group or not, I can usually go balls to the wall right off the pull except in certain occasions where you may have to fire off a Elude and if u still can't dump it fire off Hideaway which will definatly make u loose aggro.  If you're having problems still then you need to speak to your mt group and generating more hate.  No reason a swashy should be pulling aggro.  And, if you're  still having problems then use the aggro reducing poisons.

[EchoicEQII]

two words.... ignorant bliss

[Cocytus]

<p>Two bigger words.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: xx-large"><i>Necroed thread<u><span style="color: #ff0000">.</span></u></i></span></b></p>