DPS and skill upgrades

[Zamla1770]

<DIV>Hi all!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So 2 things:</DIV> <DIV>Dmg stated in skill info.</DIV> <DIV>Dmg diffrence on skill upgrades.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So nice feature with actual info on skills, but whats up with the dmg min - max? (if it is a min - max)</DIV> <DIV>Well what i noticed is that i rarley reach the min number, have asked around a bit on other classes and it seems they usualy are inside the min - max.</DIV> <DIV>What have you found on this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So as lvl s go bye we get new skill upgrades, seems its about 10 lvl s for a new skill. 10 lvl s for a mob does a huge difference, so naturaly the new skills are huge upgrades... not...</DIV> <DIV>My upgrades, for some skills are not dmg upgrades (have the same skill lvl ie adept 1 - adept 1).</DIV> <DIV>So same thing here, what have you fond on this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im lvl 39, and using good equipment.</DIV>

[Syrano]

Min - Max are raw damage values.Numerous items will affect what you actually do. Primarily the mobs mitigation will drastically reduce what you hit for. So your level compared to the mobs level will change where you fall. Your real "minimum" is the (Min + group damage bonuses + your skill modifiers) - Mob Mitigation if that makes sense.What's more revealing is the relatively low impact of going from Apprentice II to Adept I on many of the damage abilities. A few points here or there.Many of the upgrades to the "next tier" are slightly better then the Adept I's of the previous tier at the time you get them. Meaning if you're using Adept III's or higher when you first get an upgrade (next tier) ability it probably will NOT be better at apprentice I.<p>Message Edited by Syrano on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:53 AM</span>

[Boushar]

<blockquote><hr>Syrano wrote:Min - Max are raw damage values.Numerous items will affect what you actually do. Primarily the mobs mitigation will drastically reduce what you hit for. So your level compared to the mobs level will change where you fall. Your real "minimum" is the (Min + group damage bonuses + your skill modifiers) - Mob Mitigation if that makes sense.</blockquote>I would agree with you there if not for the fact that a lvl 10 mob's mitigation should be nill to a level 50 character. Yet when I tested this out by going to Blackburrow or Antonica or the Down Below, I saw roughly the same numbers as when I fight level 49-51 mobs down in Solusek's Eye. Some of my arts have a max of 600+ pts of damage. Not once have I ever gotten a hit over 450, just 150 pts higher than the min value of the art. I think there's something very wrong with that, particularly when an NPC of the same class wallops me for 1200 pts. Recently they made wizard NPCs match the damage of player wizards. They should review scouts and either bring down the NPC damage to match that of players or bring up players to match that of NPCs.Or at the very least, make the min-max more indicative of reality.

[Syrano]

I'd have to counter there. I hit for much closer to my max values on grey mobs then I do on reds. Now as to whether or not I've ever hit my max... hard to say. Don't have any historical logs with reference to historical max values.You can bet I'm watching it now but it's way too soon for me to make a direct analysis.The other question is whether or not mitigation is a flat rate or percentage based. I don't think anyone knows but that would have alarge impact. Mitigation regardless is always in affect. A mob, grey or red, will always have some amount of mitigation, arguably preventing you from hitting your max without some kind of bonus.

[Boushar]

<blockquote><hr>Syrano wrote:I'd have to counter there. I hit for much closer to my max values on grey mobs then I do on reds. Now as to whether or not I've ever hit my max... hard to say. </blockquote>This makes me think my character is borked. If I hit for the generally the same number on greys as I do on higher conning mobs, despite debuffs, then my character is broken. The only thing I CAN say about greys is that I hit for the higher numbers more consistently, but not for more on the high end.I had watched my damage on occasion before the patch, but not knowing how much I could be hitting for, I never really worried about how much/little I was doing. But after seeing the numbers and testing it out more rigorously, my findings are very troubling.Any other swashbucklers out there hitting close to their max numbers on anything? It'd be nice to have more than two opinions here to see if something is really wrong.By the way, we're talking mostly arts here, but when it comes down to straight melee, with a serrated bone dirk in my primary hand and a Najena Whip in the other, my melee hits are generally between 20s-40s each. I haven't paid these as much attention, though, so I don't know if I've ever gone over that amount, but if I have, it's not consistent at all. It's more the rare exception than the rule.

[Sinbad]

<DIV>One of the fundamental comparisons imo would be if the other classes are hitting the max number given in there descriptions. If everyone is hitting about the same percentage of the figure i would say its not a bug but something to do with how damage is worked out. However, if other classes are getting damage numbers consistently close to the high figure and scouts are not then maybe its a bug.</DIV>

[Shibbolet]

<DIV>Hey all 35 swashbuckler here. Since the patch I have been carefully looking at the difference between dmg as stated on the description and actual. For me it seems that some of the bigger number ones unfriendly/kidney ect for the most part come no where near the min dmg stated in the description. I can get over 200 with using the melee debuff trait ae/ and a master strike debuff(ie goblin strike) but even then its like 245 with UFRM and the min on that is over 200 at adept 1. So yet I am going to be looking more a the differences. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note I think we may want to start a thread with buff skills that are not worth upgrading in to let all others know that it is pointless to upgrade. As an example risky advance's benefits did not increase what so ever going from app1 to app4. The power sure did though eheh. </DIV>

[Syrano]

I checked eq2players for my max melee hit.. it's 452. I have Cat's paw and Ambuscade. Cat's has a 470 max and Ambuscade has a 443 max. One of those two created that hit. Which I don't know, but I'm satisfied that I 'can' hit my max. How often I hit it, I don't know. But +/- 17 of my max isn't that bad, considering mitigation

[Zamla1770]

<DIV>Thanks for responding on this, find it interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I to think that the AC or rather the miti... (well cant really spell that) has an effect, sure I see higher hitts on greys. </DIV> <DIV>My thought on hitting a debuffed grey in Antonica would be that it should usualy go over min, not so much to ask...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would say fine, this are raw values, Ill debuff this nasty mobs and hit em hard, well closer to min anyways, if not for the fact that pepps in other clases has stated to usualy be inside the min - max, pls guys help me in investigating this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the upgrading of skills, Syr u stated that the app 1 of a upgrade usualy dont have more dmg than the adept 1 one of the old. I would say that the app 1 (new) never beats the adept 1 (old) dmg vise.</DIV> <DIV>So a thought on this, when we get a new skill its orange, that gives us the info like "u have much to learn", so well do we learn? does dmg go up as the con changes, I have never loked at this. If so it could be the reason on why new skills are usless untill we find a rare and make the adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(And as a small side note, did u notice that the harvesting skills goes up 5 points over the usual max?)</DIV>

[Syrano]

<blockquote><hr>As to the upgrading of skills, Syr u stated that the app 1 of a upgrade usualy dont have more dmg than the adept 1 one of the old. I would say that the app 1 (new) never beats the adept 1 (old) dmg vise.<hr></blockquote>If you look at the descriptions this seems to be the case. However in actual use I find it hard to believe the new apprentice I is working better then the old adept I.. at least for a few levels. I have no conclusive proof other then the skill details clearly show the apprentice I of the new skill being slightly better.My hunch is there is far more to "actual" damage then just mob mitigation, it's con and your skill level. I think there's something about combat arts and their relative level to yours as well. The old "grow into" your abilities trick. I have no proof though =/

[Teh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bousharde wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syrano wrote:<BR>Min - Max are raw damage values.<BR><BR>Numerous items will affect what you actually do. Primarily the mobs mitigation will drastically reduce what you hit for. So your level compared to the mobs level will change where you fall. Your real "minimum" is the (Min + group damage bonuses + your skill modifiers) - Mob Mitigation if that makes sense.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR><BR>I would agree with you there if not for the fact that a lvl 10 mob's mitigation should be nill to a level 50 character. Yet when I tested this out by going to Blackburrow or Antonica or the Down Below, I saw roughly the same numbers as when I fight level 49-51 mobs down in Solusek's Eye. Some of my arts have a max of 600+ pts of damage. Not once have I ever gotten a hit over 450, just 150 pts higher than the min value of the art. I think there's something very wrong with that, particularly when an NPC of the same class wallops me for 1200 pts. Recently they made wizard NPCs match the damage of player wizards. They should review scouts and either bring down the NPC damage to match that of players or bring up players to match that of NPCs.<BR><BR>Or at the very least, make the min-max more indicative of reality</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>this is because when you are on Sol, you are grouped with lots of nice group buffs and mob debuffs. I guarantee if you take a full level 50 group into Blackburrow you will see some absurd numbers. it would be fun as hell to Cat's paw one of those new level 3 farmers in antonica with full group buffs and a fully debuffed level 3 mob.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Thelah]

<DIV>I don't know, the improved description's accuracy is certainly in question.  For example, Captain Rohand's Bruising Strike, according to the description, does 37 points of damage every 4 seconds, when in fact, it's 48.  Similarly, Captain Rohand's (I'm a big fan of his) Kidney Kick, does 67 points per tick, opposed to 52 in the description.</DIV>

[Shibbolet]

<DIV>Sy ask about and look at your melee hits from not on. Again after my post above I have done very basic testing and observation. Still have not hit the min on any skills even on greys of different sorts. Not a conclusive test obviously just stating a bit of observation. But the other thing that I am eager to get more data on is that it seems many melee skills of all melee classes fall short of the min dmg on skills. While Mages fall within their ranges quite easily on their spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wish I could see my highest hit hehe. But just everybody who reads this observe your hits and see what you get. Obviously with mitigation it is going to be lower but never hitting the min is kinda wanky hehe. </DIV>

[Crono1321]

<blockquote><hr>Shibboleth1 wrote:<DIV>Hey all 35 swashbuckler here. Since the patch I have been carefully looking at the difference between dmg as stated on the description and actual. For me it seems that some of the bigger number ones unfriendly/kidney ect for the most part come no where near the min dmg stated in the description. I can get over 200 with using the melee debuff trait ae/ and a master strike debuff(ie goblin strike) but even then its like 245 with UFRM and the min on that is over 200 at adept 1. So yet I am going to be looking more a the differences. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>On a side note I think we may want to start a thread with buff skills that are not worth upgrading in to let all others know that it is pointless to upgrade. As an example risky advance's benefits did not increase what so ever going from app1 to app4. The power sure did though eheh. </DIV><hr></blockquote>You are mistaken; the defense you lose becomes more efficient as you level it up. At app4 you lose 4def instead of 5 or 6 I forgot. Not that serious but it is an upgrade. Risky advance + Flashy trick=20pts to you= 4 lvls of slash/pierce you just got. Before risky advance @ lvl 32 I couldn't hit lvl 40-41 mobs, with it on I then use flashy trick and can hit anything I want in RE.

[Shibbolet]

<DIV>Lets keep on topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. And my fault for not seeing the defense efficiency but I am not mistaken in that I still feel that is not much if any of an upgrade. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I love the spell as well for the same reason as you but not loosing 2pts of defense is not something I would upgrade it for. Considering that I am not ever gona use in a situation where I am gona be gettting hit a lot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If all upgrading this does is lower the defense hit then unless you get adept3 or master where it might be one or two (and so useable in a solo situation perhaps) then It is not really worth upgrading it to me still. </DIV>