Power of Magic and Mind

[Ama]

<DIV>This is one of the little things that has been kinda buggin me and I was hoping my fellow lore brethern could help me out.  Where ever you go in Norrath you can see creatures who are physical users or magical users but one thing kinda bugs me.  Dealing with the magic users do they have to say a "Magical Verse" like in other tales or can they commit these verses to mind.  This commitment to mind allowing them to cast spells in a train of thought instead of having to say the magical verse?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now after saying that we proceed to my next question about races in general being able to use magical arts like shaman healing, healing, and offensive magics.  The Ravasect race doesn't seem to be the most intellectual race I have ever seen however they have certain breeds in their nest.  These breeds able to use Shadowknight abilities, illusionist/coercer abilities and other unusual traits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another question along these lines I have to ask about races, Do races have to have semi intelligence to use magical forces or can they be dumb as posts and still use magical powers? </DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Honestly, this is something that has never actually been explained. Do spell casters have to say something to cast a spell or does it just come naturally through thinking it and doing the proper movements?</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Honestly, this is something that has never actually been explained. Do spell casters have to say something to cast a spell or does it just come naturally through thinking it and doing the proper movements?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats what I have been wondering for a while Cusashorn and it was always in the back of my mind.  It was one of those things that you kinda looked over as you fought your adversary but now that I look back on it this really makes me wonder. </P> <P>I have to wonder if there are categories that magic splits off into where you need to say a phrase, have hand gesturing, and then for the third a combination of the two? I draw this conclusion because in the sorcerer line or enchanter line of AA abilities there is the "Free Hand" magic line which makes me wonder if some hand signs are needed.  These hand signs not be super powerful on their own generating somewhat powerful magic which can be used by anyone such as our Ravasect race. </P> <P>This also raises another question because what is the true power behind magic words? I mean if I say the word "Lava Bomb" and generate a heat spell that damages my enemies it may not be the same in say Thulian, Gnollish, Goblish, etc... . To them the word may come out "Fire Bomb", "Heat Bomb", "Bomb of Fire", "Bomb of Lava", etc... generating the same result or somewhat the same result. </P>

[Whazy]

<P>In most fantasy literature, magic users can wield magic using incantations or gestures or foci to cast spells (or a combination of the above).   Mages in EQ2 <EM>for the most</EM> part do not need foci or reagents to cast spells, but they do need a spellbook.  That leaves gestures and incantations.  </P> <P>You can see your character waving their hands around when they cast spells, so some gesticulation is part of the spell.  In EQ1, if you watched the character's mouth when they are casting spells, you can see their lips moving, indicating they recite something while gesticulating.  I don't remember seeing character in EQ2 moving their lips, but that doesn't mean they do not recite anything while casting.</P> <P>In the original D&D and AD&D, there was no mana.  Casters were able to cast a certain number of spells based on what level they were.  After a caster cast those spells he had memorized, he'd be unable to cast anymore spells until he rested and commited more spells to memory.  Aparently after they cast a spell, it vanished from his memory.  EQ1 came along and modified this.  Casters could memorize 8 (or 9) spells and cast them as often as they want until they ran out of mana, or sat down and memorized different spells.  EQ2 modified this by basically getting rid of spell memorization althogether.  You can cast any spell you have in your spellbook, providing you had the power to cast it.  The spellbook acts a foci in EQ2.</P> <P>I agree with Cusahorn, in that it's never been explained exactly how the spells are cast.  My guess it is a combination of gesticulation, incantation and an open spellbook.</P>

[KniteShayd]

<P>When it comes to casting there are different ways a caster can do it.</P> <P>In D&D traditional roles there are two types of magic: Arcane & Divine.  Arcane magic was magic pulled from either magic weaves that encompass' the world.  Divine magic, on the other hand, was power granted by the gods or higher beings.</P> <P>Translating that to EQ2, We can see that <EM>Ideally</EM> mages are arcane users and priests use divine.</P> <P>When casting a spell as a mage in EQ2, if you look at the action text it will say something like XxXx casts a spell of binding.  this would be a spell drawn from mental command or sheer force of will, regardless of gesture.  When a spell is cast and text says XxXx speaks a word of power, then they are obviously casting verbally as well as with gesture.</P> <P>Casters in D&D lore are what are called Sorcerers and Wizards.  A Sorcerer is innately adept at magic.  They are born with the ability to just cast by thought.  Opposite that classification is a Wizard. A Wizard normally casts by both gestures and verbal citation.  they gain power, not through inborn methods, but by endless hours of study.</P> <P>When it comes to priests, they do not normally rely on drawing from the arcane.  They cast and wield power from thier god through faith and prayer.  so if a priest were to cast a spell of binding it would most likely be because they recived the ability as a gift due to thier faith and service to that god. this would be an innate ability.  a spoken spell would be a prayer to thier god petitioning them for aid, whether it be to heal, cure, buff, ward, or be offensive.</P> <P>In traditional fantasy, regardless of class, a magic user will use all or any combo of gestures, words or force of will to cast.  </P> <P>In creatures, the case is usually different.  some creatures have inbourn abilities to cast, heal, regen, or do anything that we, as players may not be able to do.  so, therefore, no they do not need to be inteilligent to posess power, magic, or faith.  some creatures are magical in nature, or created by magic.  through this inherant magic they wield power because they <EM>are</EM> magic. (i.e. beholders, golems, fairies, dryads, ...)</P> <P>As far as Enchanters go, not all the spells they cast are magic or divine, they are mental.  Which is an entirely different form of power and is not usually classified as magic.  there very close, and as close as EQ comes to Psionicists (class that uses mental and psychic abilities to perform feats).</P> <P>Keep in mind not all classes have to be mages or priests to use magic.  In EQLive, Rangers, pally's, and SK's use magic. sk's and pally's still do in EQ2.  Bards' songs are usually considered magical and are considered Arcane based.</P><p>Message Edited by KniteShayd on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

[Koehianna]

While we're at it, I'd like to know how staves and wands come into play with spellcasting.  What exactly do they do for spellcasters?<div></div>

[KniteShayd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Koehianna wrote:<BR>While we're at it, I'd like to know how staves and wands come into play with spellcasting.  What exactly do they do for spellcasters?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>They act as a concentrator for the magic that they (spellcasters)  cast.  Kinda like a gun barrel, you point and shoot. They are used to concentrate or amplify the magic or energy and conduct it to the point of release.</P> <P>In Fantasy, and even in R/L history, different materials take on different qualities and properties whether it be wood or metal or crystal.  Some material is supposed to be able to amplify power or energy.  Thats why some wands are wood, some are metal, and some are tipped or capped with a gem, mineral, or other item, just depends what you use em for.  </P> <P>Imbueing a wand means your increasing its power or altering its characteristics to fit your agenda.  Thats why imbued wands in game have different qualities.</P>

[Ama]

<DIV>I really think there are 3 categories within EQ2 where there is speaking, gesturing then the combination of the two for spell casting.  One thing I think we can all agree on is as said in traditional Fantasy realms you will seeing gesturing, speaking incantations or a combo of the two. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main reason I ask about the power of magic and mind is with the so many various races in Norrath how is it possible they can use the same spells?  Also I have to ask if they do not use the exact same spells do they create their own which are only slight variations of a single center spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for wands as Knite pointed out they can be made of various materials topped with various materials.  These given differing results based upon what the wand is made of and what it is topped with. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do have a question for you Knite and that is in game do we have some sort of geometrical concept concerning wands?  This concept being along the lines of pyramid power concentrating points into one spot or is it more along the lines of materials and minerology?</DIV>

[KniteShayd]

<P>It would appear that we dont really have either.</P> <P>If wands and such were based on characteristics, we wouldn't have specific types for each tier.  in otherwords, oak doesn't have anything over briarwood except rarity.  both can be imbued and both imbues will resist the same since it depends on the caster's and the receiver's stats.  </P> <P>Personally, i wouldv'e liked to have been able to harvest all wood and from thier select the wand that beat fits my needs.  Unfortunately we are stuck with the tiering process.  </P> <P>Ideally, in a fantasy setting wands' wood would have different effects when imbued and thusly could alter the power damage and clicky effect that it would have.</P> <P> </P> <P>In regard to races, depending on the spells, Ideally a non-innately casting race should be able to cast a spell another race uses.  This is why casters are always portrayed as being scholarly.  they must study the spell, it's effects, the pronounciation of the words involved.  If a spell's words are spoken wrong, the spell may not work or last as long.  In the worst of situations it could have a completely different or unintended effect.  </P> <P>As long as the person speaking the spell can speak the original language, or at least pronounce the phrase or word(s) correctly, then they should be able to cast the same, or counter, the spell.  Understand some spells require mental concentration and use of intent.  When a caster casts a spell, the motions may be the same and have the same effect, but may be said with another language.  thats beacause not just the motion is the same but the focus of thought was to attain the same intended/desired effect.   Lets say a human and an elf are to make fireworks together.  both are fluent in thier own languages but not eachother's.  the human casts his spell saying, "Stars!"  and boom a starry firework explodes.  if the elf mimics the motion and says "<EM>Elendi!</EM>" (think thats elvish plural for stars) then the spell would be the same because the intent was to make the same firework and all it required was the motion and the word for stars.  In otherwords, the word to make the intention take place.</P> <P> </P> <P>We, unfortunately don't have anything dealing with esoteric geometrics.  would be fun to see implemented in our spells or equipment.  there is some geometric esoterica on items and locations in the zones but nothing like acually casting geometry like in Full Metal Alchemist or actally seeing it as an effect with spells.  closest thing to that we get is/are spells effect with runes.</P> <P>It's more geomancy, but in a very mild sense.</P>

[KniteShayd]

<P>Spells can aslo be altered with regents.  a death spell in Forgotem Realms' lore can effect one person, but with a regent, say black pearl powder, the effect will hit multiple targets.  so yes a spell can be cast by lizard man, but an elf can alter it by adding on to it.  and vice versa.</P> <P>Spell casting is a complecated study that requires alot of time to understand and comprehend, as you can see. :smileywink:</P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whazy wrote:<BR> <P>In most fantasy literature, magic users can wield magic using incantations or gestures or foci to cast spells (or a combination of the above).   Mages in EQ2 <EM>for the most</EM> part do not need foci or reagents to cast spells, but they do need a spellbook.  That leaves gestures and incantations.  </P> <P>You can see your character waving their hands around when they cast spells, so some gesticulation is part of the spell.  In EQ1, if you watched the character's mouth when they are casting spells, you can see their lips moving, indicating they recite something while gesticulating.  I don't remember seeing character in EQ2 moving their lips, but that doesn't mean they do not recite anything while casting.</P> <P>In the original D&D and AD&D, there was no mana.  Casters were able to cast a certain number of spells based on what level they were.  After a caster cast those spells he had memorized, he'd be unable to cast anymore spells until he rested and commited more spells to memory.  Aparently after they cast a spell, it vanished from his memory.  EQ1 came along and modified this.  Casters could memorize 8 (or 9) spells and cast them as often as they want until they ran out of mana, or sat down and memorized different spells.  EQ2 modified this by basically getting rid of spell memorization althogether.  You can cast any spell you have in your spellbook, providing you had the power to cast it.  The spellbook acts a foci in EQ2.</P> <P>I agree with Cusahorn, in that it's never been explained exactly how the spells are cast.  My guess it is a combination of gesticulation, incantation and an open spellbook.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats odd. I don't remember either the original or the Luclin models in EQlive having lip movements at all.

[troodon]

<DIV>I distinctly remember my Iksar's mouth moving when he cast Bobbing Corpse, I'm sure it moved on some others.</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KniteShayd wrote:<BR> <P>Spells can aslo be altered with regents.  a death spell in Forgotem Realms' lore can effect one person, but with a regent, say black pearl powder, the effect will hit multiple targets.  so yes a spell can be cast by lizard man, but an elf can alter it by adding on to it.  and vice versa.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Spell casting is a complecated study that requires alot of time to understand and comprehend, as you can see.</FONT> :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That one i'm not 100% sure about because if you introduce the "Magically Adept" it can seem rather easy casting even the most complicated of spells.  But I do agree that spells can be altered with regents or perhaps magical items making casting easier on the caster.  This could possibly explain why some races that seem "Dim witted" are able to cast unusually powerful spells. </P> <P>A good example being the questioning of the Ravasect intelligence and how their varying classes are able to have Shadowknight, necromancer, and illusionist types. <BR></P>

[Mirander_1]

Here's Everquest magic as I understand it.First of all, a lot of people have been using D&D to explain magic, and that's actually fairly acurate.  From what I read somewhere, the world of Norrath actually started as a fan-made world for a D&D campaign, then those fans went and made it into the computer game; it's safe to assume that a lot of the mechanics for things like magic stayed largely the same.Now that I got that out of the way, there are two forms of magic in EQ, arcane and divine.  Divine magic comes from either the gods, or their planes, or the principles the gods represent.  Arcane magic comes from channeling the Mana Flow that surrounds Norrath.  Arcane magic seems to be blocked by large amounts of metal, so mages don't wear armor.  Magic can take any combination of incantations, gestures, or reagents, depending on the specific spell; it also takes great mental concentration, and channeling the spell can be disruppted by being injured or moving around.  The difference between the different types of mages doesn't come from the source of their magic, but rather what actions they put the mana towards.As for unintelligent creatures using magic, it's a question of some creatures being innately magical.  Most of the playable races aren't innately magical to the point where they can just do magic, they do need to still study and train to learn to do so.  Some elemental creatures don't seem too intelligent, but they can still do magic because they're just naturally highly magical creatures.  Dragons are an example of creatures that are both very intelligent and highly innately magical, that's part of what makes them so dangerous<div></div>

[Koehianna]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mirander wrote:Here's Everquest magic as I understand it.First of all, a lot of people have been using D&D to explain magic, and that's actually fairly acurate.  From what I read somewhere, the world of Norrath actually started as a fan-made world for a D&D campaign, then those fans went and made it into the computer game; it's safe to assume that a lot of the mechanics for things like magic stayed largely the same.Now that I got that out of the way, there are two forms of magic in EQ, arcane and divine.  Divine magic comes from either the gods, or their planes, or the principles the gods represent.  Arcane magic comes from channeling the Mana Flow that surrounds Norrath.  <font color="#ff0000">Arcane magic seems to be blocked by large amounts of metal, so mages don't wear armor.</font>  Magic can take any combination of incantations, gestures, or reagents, depending on the specific spell; it also takes great mental concentration, and channeling the spell can be disruppted by being injured or moving around.  The difference between the different types of mages doesn't come from the source of their magic, but rather what actions they put the mana towards.As for unintelligent creatures using magic, it's a question of some creatures being innately magical.  Most of the playable races aren't innately magical to the point where they can just do magic, they do need to still study and train to learn to do so.  Some elemental creatures don't seem too intelligent, but they can still do magic because they're just naturally highly magical creatures.  Dragons are an example of creatures that are both very intelligent and highly innately magical, that's part of what makes them so dangerous<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't quite understand what you mean by that.  Arcane magic is blocked by... metal??  It seems like you're implying that mages don't wear armor because they're surrounded by metal??</div>

[Mirander_1]

<div><blockquote><hr>Koehianna wrote:<div><blockquote><div></div>I don't quite understand what you mean by that.  Arcane magic is blocked by... metal??  It seems like you're implying that mages don't wear armor because they're surrounded by metal??</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Well, in most fantasy worlds, there's one of two explanations for why mages never wear armor.  The first is that the armor inhibits movement so the mages can't make the gestures to cast the spell; this has never made sense to me, I figue if you can move enough to swordfight,  then a mage should be able to wave his arms around and cast.  The other common explanation is that large amounts of metal can block the flow of magic, this would mean that if a mage wore armor he wouldn't be able to channel magic because he couldn't "reach" the mana.  That makes a bit more sense to me than the first theory, so that's the one I've always gone with</div>

[Whazy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirander wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Koehianna wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I don't quite understand what you mean by that.  Arcane magic is blocked by... metal??  It seems like you're implying that mages don't wear armor because they're surrounded by metal??<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, in most fantasy worlds, there's one of two explanations for why mages never wear armor.  <BR><BR>The first is that the armor inhibits movement so the mages can't make the gestures to cast the spell; this has never made sense to me, I figue if you can move enough to swordfight,  then a mage should be able to wave his arms around and cast.  <BR><BR>The other common explanation is that large amounts of metal can block the flow of magic, this would mean that if a mage wore armor he wouldn't be able to channel magic because he couldn't "reach" the mana.  That makes a bit more sense to me than the first theory, so that's the one I've always gone with<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I always thought that casters don't wear metal because it is heavy.  Casters spend a lot of time studying books and scrolls.  They don't have the time to work out and improve their body strength, so the have to wear light armor.

[Whazy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats odd. I don't remember either the original or the Luclin models in EQlive having lip movements at all.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Load up the character select screen in EQ1.  Watch the animation there.  When the toons cast something, they are using the same motions and mouth movements that they use in game.  Lips are moving while they cast.  I have seen it in-game too.  I always thought it was a nice touch.<BR></P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirander wrote:<BR>Here's Everquest magic as I understand it.<BR><BR>First of all, a lot of people have been using D&D to explain magic, and that's actually fairly acurate.  From what I read somewhere, the world of Norrath actually started as a fan-made world for a D&D campaign, then those fans went and made it into the computer game; it's safe to assume that a lot of the mechanics for things like magic stayed largely the same.<BR><BR>Now that I got that out of the way, there are two forms of magic in EQ, arcane and divine.  Divine magic comes from either the gods, or their planes, or the principles the gods represent.  Arcane magic comes from channeling the Mana Flow that surrounds Norrath.  Arcane magic seems to be blocked by large amounts of metal, so mages don't wear armor.  Magic can take any combination of incantations, gestures, or reagents, depending on the specific spell; it also takes great mental concentration, and channeling the spell can be disruppted by being injured or moving around.  The difference between the different types of mages doesn't come from the source of their magic, but rather what actions they put the mana towards.<BR><BR>As for unintelligent creatures using magic, it's a question of some creatures being innately magical.  Most of the playable races aren't innately magical to the point where they can just do magic, they do need to still study and train to learn to do so.  Some elemental creatures don't seem too intelligent, but they can still do magic because they're just naturally highly magical creatures.  Dragons are an example of creatures that are both very intelligent and highly innately magical, that's part of what makes them so dangerous<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually I would put forth a theory I have about why mages can't wear plate armor however crusaders could possibly destroy that theory because they use disease for SK and Divine for Paladin. </P> <P>However I do have 1 initial idea I can put forth that is plausible but not 100% confirmable.  With the mage classes needing to wear cloth armor they need an extreme amount of free motion with their hands.  Mages aren't even allowed to wear leather armor so this leads me to believe Magic as it were has different levels and the more higher powered magics require greater amounts of moments. </P> <P>That is why you will see a wizard casting ice nova in a robe or cloth shirt rather than a full suite of xegonite armor.  I also put forth that spells based on classes are spells derived for that class because of the amount of freedom/movement they are permited in their armor.  Mages will have 90-100% free movement with cloth armor however with say a SK you have 25-30% free movement if you are lucky.  Thus you must have spells that require little hand gesturing and require little incantation as possible for the heat of battle. </P> <P>I do agree though with the innately magical concept when you refer it to dragons.  Also if you take it further I believe that within races innately magical beings can be born however how magical they are as you say they must know either a little or alot about magic to make it work for them.  Some things may come natural with the epic encounters *sorry cusashorn have to use it* being a prime example of the magically gifted and the magically innate still studying being the high elves that have high intelligence.<BR></P>

[Koehianna]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mirander wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Koehianna wrote:<div><blockquote><div></div>I don't quite understand what you mean by that.  Arcane magic is blocked by... metal??  It seems like you're implying that mages don't wear armor because they're surrounded by metal??</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Well, in most fantasy worlds, there's one of two explanations for why mages never wear armor.  The first is that the armor inhibits movement so the mages can't make the gestures to cast the spell; this has never made sense to me, I figue if you can move enough to swordfight,  then a mage should be able to wave his arms around and cast.  The other common explanation is that large amounts of metal can block the flow of magic, this would mean that if a mage wore armor he wouldn't be able to channel magic because he couldn't "reach" the mana.  That makes a bit more sense to me than the first theory, so that's the one I've always gone with</div><hr></blockquote>Ahh.  I get it now.  I thought you meant they were literally blocked by metal (as in metal armor).  :p</div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

Well, this is just conjecture but I believe that spell casting is both a combination of hand waving and word/phrase saying.  The hand waving can be seen when any mage casts a spell.  Some spells require more hand waving then others.  I believe saying a word/phrase is necessary because you can see in the enchanter line a spell called Silence that prevents a spellcaster from casting.  As far as what language this spell is spoken in, I would assume druzaic(the language of magic).  <div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AbsentmindedMage wrote:<BR>Well, this is just conjecture but I believe that spell casting is both a combination of hand waving and word/phrase saying.  The hand waving can be seen when any mage casts a spell.  Some spells require more hand waving then others.  I believe saying a word/phrase is necessary because you can see in the enchanter line a spell called Silence that prevents a spellcaster from casting.  As far as what language this spell is spoken in, I would assume druzaic(the language of magic). <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well I think there is more than just 1 form of magical language here 1 being druziac, 1 being true arcane and 1 being divine magic. </P> <P>If I had to say anything I also believe that there are 3 essences if we delve totally into talking about spells/magic.  The first essence being of land, the second being of soul, and the other being of tongue.  The land aspect as some have said deals with the arcane that exists about us even though we can't see it the magic/mana is there.  This is drawn upon from druids, shamans, to mages dealing with conjurors. </P> <P>Second you have the being of soul which deals with the divine aspect which paladins and templars majorly rely upon more than any other class.  Shadowknights also have a bit of this as well as Inquisitors but not as much as the templars/paladins believe in.  The stronger the soul or will of the person the more powerful their divine powers are. </P> <P>The third and final essence is that of tongue or magical verses that we have been talking about.  Druziac language from what I understand is a very powerful language being a language of pure magic.  We learn the language from the four totems that randomly appear across the lands of Norrath and I do have to ask what are these totems for?</P> <P>Dealing with magic however I don't think we can scratch the surface behind what it truely is or what is behind it. </P>