Paladins and mithaniel marr

[Lancer]

<DIV>I'm pretty new to everquest 2 and been trying to find some lore on paladins and Mithaniel Marr so could someone give me some links if they are any or type some stuff up for me thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Coccinea_Maga]

<a href="http://lorenorrath.free.fr" target=_blank>lorenorrath.free.fr</a>The site has a nice little search function and you can find lore from both EQLive and EQ2.<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>That's an ambitious project, for there is a lot of lore surrounding the Paladins of Marr in their various forms.</P> <P>The earliest reference to the Paladins of Marr that I have found, (chronologically speaking), dates from the beginning of the Age of Monuments.</P> <P>At that time the Elddar Forest had not withered, Takish 'Hiz had not fallen, and the Elder Elves were still in Tunaria. </P> <P>At that point in time the worshipers of the Marr Twins occupied the Fortress of Ardathium, (which later became Befallen).  The Paladins there were led by Grenic Drere, and were called the <STRONG>Che Virtuson.</STRONG></P> <P>When Ardathium fell, the Clerics and Paladins of Marr reformed their order in the Commonlands around the Castle Val 'Marr.</P> <P>They were now a combined Order know as the <STRONG>Fist of Marr</STRONG>.  This is around the period of time of EQoA.</P> <P>As Landing slowly evolved into Freeport, Val 'Marr was abandoned and the Order relocated into North Freeport.  They were seperate Orders again, with the Paladins now known as the <STRONG>Knights of Truth</STRONG>.</P> <P>With the suppression and betrayal of the Order by the Overlord, (himself a fallen Paladin of the Order), the <STRONG>Knights of Truth</STRONG> were supposedly sealed by treachery in their original site of Ardathium, which had long since been cursed, (see the lore around the Bone-Bladed Claymore), and had been called Befallen for many centuries.</P> <P>The two orders, (the Clerics and Paladins), are now re-emerging again as a combined Order, under the title, the <STRONG>Order of Marr</STRONG>.</P> <P>Rumors persist that the Knights were not necessarily unaware of Lucan's plans, and in some way evaded the trap that had been set for them.</P> <P>There must be <EM>at least</EM> a dozen or more threads in the back pages of these forums dealing with the worshippers of Marr in one form or another;  a little digging will likely supply you with enough reading for the next couple of months, minimum.</P> <P>Hope that helps some.</P>

[Lancer]

<DIV>Thanks alot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Don't thank me yet, as there are a lot of unanswered questions, and some serious contradictions in the story as well.</P> <P>For instance, the story of Ardathium comes from EQ1 lore (Planes of Power, I believe).  It has the Paladins of Marr, and Humans such as Grenic Drere, running around during the first part of the Age of Monuments.   Yet, (supposedly), this was impossible because Human Kind had not been raised up until the Marr Twins 'enlightened' them, and marked the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment, (which came <EM><STRONG>after</STRONG></EM> the Age of Monuments).</P> <P>I'm sure it will all untangle itself eventually.</P> <P> </P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Uhhh according to those books describing Ardathium, it was built in South Ro, not anywhere close to where Befallen was in the Western Commonlands.</DIV>

[Mary the Prophetess]

The Lost City of Ardathium: Volume II<BR>In the first years to crown the Monument Age, <EM>the<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>fortress of Ardathium was erected in the <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Northernmost</FONT></STRONG><BR>fields outside the Elddar Forest.</FONT></EM> Established by the<BR>Half-Elven Paladin, Countess Vianny, Ardathium would<BR>be the first of the great monuments established in the<BR>name of Mithaniel Marr throughout all of Norrathian<BR>history. Dedicated soley to the crusades of the<BR>Truthbringer, in the name of Valor, Honor, and Truth,<BR>Ardathium was one of Norrath's most beautiful, though<BR>tragically short-lived, treasures.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>ok then. It's been a while since I read it, but didn't the books say that Ardathium was completely destroyed and buried beneath the sands, and something along the lines of only a single solitary tower sticking out of the sands is all thats left of it or something?</DIV>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>From 'The Lost City of Ardathium: Volume I'</FONT></P> <P>In the two and a half days that I was allowed the<BR>opportunity to explore the standing portions of this<BR>place, I learned so little and yet so much. A great<BR>library had once been housed within the walls of the<BR>white and golden city of Truth. Though most of the<BR>tomes had dissolved into dust in the cruel clutches of<BR>time, I was fortunate to find a few legible documents<BR>preserved by the desert's heat. The script was<BR>ancient, but I recognized bits and pieces of the runic<BR>tongue of old. The story is one that I have concluded<BR>to be the possible fate of <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Sir Grenic Drere</FONT></STRONG>, the hero<BR>of this tale, and of the city of Ardathium.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>From 'The Lost City of Ardathium: Volume IV:</FONT></P> <P>Hesitantly, Grenic agreed, knowing full well that the<BR>act would understandably leave a mark on his soul for<BR>judgement in the hereafter.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>From EQ LIve:  Quests for the Hall of Honor:<BR></FONT></P> <P>Minok Targsk says 'Who defines the lines of being<BR>right or wrong? When a good man is under pressure he<BR>sometimes makes bad choices. Should this man not be<BR>forgiven or should he be judged to be wrong for the<BR>rest of his life? It's just not right. [Grenic] should<BR>be allowed back into the halls as he once was.'</P> <P>You say, 'Who is Grenic?'</P> <P>Minok Targsk says <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>'Grenic Drere</STRONG></FONT> was the man who saved<BR>my life. We fought together in the battle of Amn`Oren.<BR>Grenic lost sight of our objective for a second and<BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000><EM>killed innocent people</EM> </FONT></STRONG>rather than making them<BR>prisoners. Mithaniel Marr banished him from the Halls<BR>of Honor. Grenic has asked me for a favor to try and<BR>find an alternate way into see Mithaniel Marr. I hid<BR>pieces of a [map] that I had drawn up around here but<BR>the other guards have been keeping a close eye on me.'<BR></P> <P>you say, 'Hail, Grenic Drere'<BR></P> <P>Grenic Drere says 'Mortals, this far into the planes?<BR>Something that I never thought that I would see.<BR>Regardless that does not help my [situation] any does<BR>it?'</P> <P>You say, 'What situation?'</P> <P>Grenic Drere says 'Not that it is your business, but<BR>this is where I call home. I have lost track of the<BR>years that I have spent here. This valley is my home,<BR>for I was exiled from [Mithaniel's Temple]. It is not<BR>a story that I am proud of and do not wish to share<BR>with you. So be one with you.'</P> <P>You say, 'Where is Mithaniel's Temple?'</P> <P>Grenic Drere says 'Only a mortal would be as thick<BR>headed to know not when to take their leave. He and<BR>his legions call his temple The Halls of Honor.<BR>Paladins that have served him well on Norrath have the<BR>opportunity to ascend into his ranks. They are in<BR>training to make sure that they are always prepared to<BR>defend what they believe is the right and honorable<BR>thing to do. Mithaniel is an extremely proud being,<BR>and will accept any challenge that you may have to<BR>offer him. If you are willing to challenge him, I may<BR>have some [information] you will find useful.'<BR><BR>You say, 'what information?'</P> <P>Grenic Drere says 'There are other methods to enter<BR>the Halls of Honor than those that are readily<BR>apparent, and as a former soldier of Marr I can offer<BR>you access into the Halls; however as with all such<BR>arrangements there must be something [paid] for<BR>something earned.'</P> <P>You say, 'paid?'</P> <P>Grenic Drere says 'I was not the only member of my<BR>squad that was sent into exile, my brothers in arms,<BR>were the impetus for our exile. I was but a mere pawn.<BR>They now reside in the Plane of Justice as bodiless<BR>shades. Their punishment was too lax for their<BR>actions; I want their eternal souls to be mine. Find a<BR>smith who will teach you to create a box of souls,<BR>weaken the shades, then capture their souls and return<BR>all three to me.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>From EQ Live:  The Bone-Bladed Claymore Quest:</FONT></P> <P>The Order of Marr's Fist was a group of Paladins and<BR>Clerics, (that followed both Mithaniel and Erollisi Marr),<BR>that controlled a tronghold in the Serpent Spine<BR>Mountains <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>overlooking the Commonlands</FONT>.</STRONG> One night, they<BR>found a man wandering the Western Commonlands who, in<BR>his rambling, claimed to be cursed by Gnoll Shamans.<BR>The Knights that found him led the man, who they were<BR>able to determine was named Gynok Moltor, into their<BR>stronghold. One night, Gynok Moltor went completely<BR>mad, and he was driven by some evil force to<BR>ruthlessly kill everyone in the stronghold and defile<BR>the temple. That stronghold became known only as<BR>Befallen, because no one who lived could remember the<BR>name of the stronghold it once was.</P> <P> </P> <P>[This passage seems to indicate the Order was called the <STRONG>Order of Marr's Fist</STRONG> by the time of Gynok; which would make the Fortress of Marr where he was taken the <STRONG>Castle of Val 'Marr,</STRONG> rather than <STRONG>Ardathium</STRONG>.  However, the location of the ruins of Val 'Marr are completely in the wrong location to be Befallen, so I think the name of the Order, (<STRONG>The Order of Marr's Fist</STRONG>), is either older than I am assuming, and the Che Virtuson were just an elite faction of the greater Order, or the author has the wrong name for the Order at the time that the Bone-Bladed Claymore entered the stronghold.]</P> <P>However, you are quite correct when you say that the story says that Ardathium was covered by the sands; (but then again, so was Befallen).  So where the <EM>precise</EM> location of Ardathium is, (was), is still open to some debate.  My educated guess, based on a lot of references, is that Befallen = Ardathium.  Befallen lines up very well with where Ardathium was proported to be, and both are closely associated with the Paladins of Marr.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 PM</span>

[Yar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div>The Lost City of Ardathium: Volume IIIn the first years to crown the Monument Age, <em>the<font color="#ffff00">fortress of Ardathium was erected in the <strong><font color="#ff0000">Northernmost</font></strong>fields outside the Elddar Forest.</font></em> Established by theHalf-Elven Paladin, Countess Vianny, Ardathium wouldbe the first of the great monuments established in thename of Mithaniel Marr throughout all of Norrathianhistory. Dedicated soley to the crusades of theTruthbringer, in the name of Valor, Honor, and Truth,Ardathium was one of Norrath's most beautiful, thoughtragically short-lived, treasures.<hr></blockquote>The Lost City of Ardathium: Volume I<b><i>Ardathium</i></b> - that is the name of the place I shall detail as best I can in these pages. <i><font color="#ffff00">A glorious citadel constructed by the first followers of Mithaniel Marr in what is now known as the</font></i> <b><font color="#ff0000">Southern Desert of Ro.</font></b>The Lost City of Ardathium: Volume VI<b>Ardathium</b> would experience nearly a century of prosperity and peace beneath the leadership of Grenic's bloodline, though a great earthquake and the<font color="#ffff00"> burning of the Elddar forest</font> would leave the once-white and golden jewel of Mithaniel's legacy upon Norrath in irreparable ruins that would, in the passing eras, be consumed by the <font color="#ff0000"><b>desert sands of Ro</b>.</font><b><font color="#ff0000"></font></b><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Sorry Mary, Ardathium and Befallen are not the same, by all accounts and purposes.  We could almost believe that Ardathium = Silent City, but even then that's incorrect as quoted above - the old fortress lies in <u><b>irreparable ruins.</b></u> </font></font><b><font color="#ff0000"><font size="1">Edited to fix spelling mistakes.</font></font></b></div><p>Message Edited by Yaroc on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 PM</span>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Yaroc,</P> <P>The copy of the text I have says only,</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff00>A glorious citadel constructed by the first followers of Mithaniel Marr in what is now known as the</FONT></EM><B><FONT color=#ff0000> Desert of Ro.</FONT></B></P> <P>Are you sure that the 'Southern' adjective is present?</P> <P>I no longer have an active EQ Live account, but that one word is rather important, and I would like to know which version is the correct one.</P> <P>As for the rest, well, one could easily make the case that Befallen is also in irrepairable ruins; (especially if you look at what condition it <EM>would</EM> have been in if it had been placed into the game (ie: Stormhold)</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Befallen in EQ Live was right at the northern edge of the Desert(s) of Ro.  Even though it was in the Commonlands, the terrain surrounding it was all desert.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>However, if it is indeed the case that it was in <STRONG>SOUTHERN RO</STRONG>, then Befallen was yet some <EM>other</EM> stronghold of the Paladin's of Marr which has not been named; (since we only have two named candidates at the moment:  </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>The Castle of Val 'Marr: (rejected because it was built after Befallen, and because of it's location)</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Ardathium: (rejected if it's location is indeed in Southern Ro)</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Official lore establishes Grenic as connected to Ardathium.  </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Official lore connects Gynok to the Paladin's of Marr (who found him, and gave him succor in their 'stronghold')</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Official lore connects Gynok to Befallen.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Befallen has to be the Paladin's 'stronghold', but <STRONG>WHICH </STRONG>stronghold,</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>a)  Ardathium</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>b)  Val 'Marr</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>c)  an un-named, (third), stronghold</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[Yar]

<div></div>I still have my EQ account active, so I will verify the exact wording in game... will just take me a few moments.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Yaroc on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 PM</span>

[Yar]

Confirmed, right from in-game text it states Southern Desert of Ro.<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Thanks for the verification.</P> <P>That solves some things, but mucks up other things.</P> <P>If Ardathium is in Southern Ro, then it <STRONG><EM>can't</EM> </STRONG>be Befallen. (nods to Cusashorn).</P> <P>If Ardathium was on the Northern edge of the Elddar Forest, then the area around the Oasis of Marr might be a good candidate for it's location. (mere coincidence about the name?).</P> <P>Putting Ardathium further south also fits in much better with the attack on Innothule Swamp as described from the texts of The History of the Lost City of Ardathium:</P> <P>But:</P> <P>It <STRONG><EM>also</EM></STRONG> means that the Elddar Forest occupied the area of South Ro only, and was MUCH smaller than is widely believed and stated.</P> <P><STRONG>Many</STRONG> sources reference the Elddar Forest to have spanned the entire area of Southern Ro, Oasis, and Northern Ro, even into the Commonlands.</P> <P>Ardathium <STRONG><EM>can't</EM></STRONG> be located in the center of that vast area, (which is where the location at the Northern edge of South Ro would put it), if it was said to be at the Northern edge.</P> <P>Either Ardathium was at the Northern edge as stated, and the Elddar Forest was quite small (comparatively)</P> <P><STRONG>or</STRONG></P> <P>The Elddar Forest was as large as believed, and Ardathium could not have been in Southern Ro.</P> <P>If the Elddar Forest only reached up to the Oasis of Marr area, then WHAT was North Ro?</P> <P>The ruins of Takish 'Hiz are accessed from the Southern part of Oasis (if I recall).  </P> <P>If that city had been in the center of the Elddar Forest, (as has been stated in other lore threads), then the the Elddar Forest <STRONG>HAD</STRONG> to stretch all the way to the Commonlands. </P> <P>Ardathium could not have been at it's Northern edge <STRONG>AND</STRONG> in Southern Ro at the same time!</P> <P>Something doesn't add up.</P> <P>And if Befallen is not Ardathium <STRONG>or</STRONG> Val 'Marr, then what was it's name before the Gynok came into the picture?</P> <P>Vhalen?</P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

[Yar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Befallen has to be the Paladin's 'stronghold', but <strong>WHICH </strong>stronghold,</font></font> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">a)  Ardathium</font></font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">b)  Val 'Marr</font></font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">c)  an un-named, (third), stronghold</font></font></p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class="date_text">08-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:34 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I vote c) an un-named, (third), strongholdWhy does it have to be "THE" Paladins' stronghold, why not "A" Paladins' stronghold?Nobody left alive remembers the name.  Yet, people remembered the name Aradathium (as there are six tomes of knowledge dedicated to it), and Val'Marr was built well after Befallen was corrupted.  I bet there are hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of names of forts, cities, towns, lands etc. that have been forgotten in the Earth's history - why would Norrath's history or lore be any different? Sure, I'd like to know more about Befallen and its history (name, how long it stood there, why it was created there, etc), but I'm not overly worried about it too much.I wouldn't say Befallen was irreparable - if someone could permanently clear the undead from the dungeon, the bloodstains, and even the stench from within, I think it could be used as a stronghold again - it just needs a bit of work.  Same with Stormhold as it is in game now - it could be cleansed and re-used as a stronghold.When I think of irrepairable ruins, I'm thinking ... the Aquaduct in Sinking Sands.  If someone really needed to, it would be way easier to build an aquaduct from scratch than use the ruins of old.</div>

[Yar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Thanks for the verification.</p> <p>That solves some things, but mucks up other things.</p> <p>If Ardathium is in Southern Ro, then it <strong><em>can't</em> </strong>be Befallen. (nods to Cusashorn).</p> <p>If Ardathium was on the Northern edge of the Elddar Forest, then the area around the Oasis of Marr might be a good candidate for it's location. (mere coincidence about the name?).</p> <p>Putting Ardathium further south also fits in much better with the attack on Innothule Swamp as described from the texts of The History of the Lost City of Ardathium:</p> <p>But:</p> <p>It <strong><em>also</em></strong> means that the Elddar Forest occupied the area of South Ro only, and was MUCH smaller than is widely believed and stated.</p> <p><strong>Many</strong> sources reference the Elddar Forest to have spanned the entire area of Southern Ro, Oasis, and Northern Ro, even into the Commonlands.</p> <p>Ardathium <strong><em>can't</em></strong> be located in the center of that vast area, (which is where the location at the Northern edge of South Ro would put it), if it was said to be at the Northern edge.</p> <p>Either Ardathium was at the Northern edge as stated, and the Elddar Forest was quite small (comparatively)</p> <p><strong>or</strong></p> <p>The Elddar Forest was as large as believed, and Ardathium could not have been in Southern Ro.</p> <p>If the Elddar Forest only reached up to the Oasis of Marr area, then WHAT was North Ro?</p> <p>The ruins of Takish 'Hiz are accessed from the Southern part of Oasis (if I recall).  </p> <p>If that city had been in the center of the Elddar Forest, (as has been stated in other lore threads), then the the Elddar Forest <strong>HAD</strong> to stretch all the way to the Commonlands. </p> <p>Ardathium could not have been at it's Northern edge <strong>AND</strong> in Southern Ro at the same time!</p> <p>Something doesn't add up.</p> <p>And if Befallen is not Ardathium <strong>or</strong> Val 'Marr, then what was it's name before the Gynok came into the picture?</p> <p>Vhalen?</p><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class="date_text">08-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:12 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You're certainly right, it is a mess. Lets see what the lore states, and what 'fix or conclusion' we can come up with until it gets straightened around... if it can be?From Ardathium Volume II:<i>In the first years to crown the <font color="#33ccff">Monument Age, </font>the Fortress of Ardathium... [edit for space] ... was a sight to behold. Its white and blue banners rose high toward the heavens and the brilliant glinting of sunlight off of its tower's golden caps could be seen for miles above the lush, green canopy of the Elddar Forest to the <b><font color="#ff0000">south</font></b>.... [edited some interesting but irrellevant -in this case- text]</i><i>A small commune of faithful peasants dwelled within the outer sanctum of the fortress' temple, though the fortress was primarily governed as a war-front against the dark evils that lurked in the <font color="#ffff00"><b>eastern swamps of Innothule and the Feerrott.</b></font>"</i>From the Book of Ages - <font color="#663399">The Lost Age <font color="#ffffff">(which is several books after the Age of Monuments, btw)</font></font>:"<i>The last of the old races to decline was the empire of the Elves. The Elddar Forest, the Elven realm of old, spread across the entire southeastern quarter of <font color="#66ff00"><b>Tunaria</b></font>. Tree communities and marble cities were built in the forest's clearings and meadows, their white towers and spires climbing out of the forest, higher than the tallest tree. Legends say this prosperity drew the jealousy of Solusek Ro, Lord of Flame. <font color="#ff9900"><b>He arched the spine of the serpent mountains</b></font>, bringing heat from the burning sun to the ancient forest."</i>So, imagine if you will Antonica before Solusek Ro decided to arch the spine of the Serpent Mountains<font color="#ccccff">.  <font color="#ffffff">I'm having a difficult time imagining it, because .....Antonica's "south-eastern quarter" would be way different than what it looks like in EQ1 now.  The elddar forest would have covered most of it. Ardathium was north of the Elddar forest, and bordered the Feerrott and Innothule Swamp?!?  That's what it says in the text, folks.  I'm interpreting the fortress' role as a war front against the eastern Innothule/Feerrott forces, not that the Swamp and Feerrott were actually east of Ardathium - I could be wrong, but not likely looking at the map.</font></font>Solusek's change to the mountains is probably the <i>"<u>great earthquake</u> and the <u>burning of the Elddar forest</u>" </i>that left<i> "the once-white and golden jewel of Mithaniel's legacy upon Norrath in irreparable ruins that would, in the passing eras, be consumed by the desert sands of Ro."  </i><font color="#ff0000" size="4">It's all Solusek's fault - blame him for the confusion!</font><b></b><font size="3"><font color="#ffffff">It would be nice if this could all get sorted out, my brain hurts now reading up on all of this and speculating, LOL.</font></font></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Below is a quick sketch of where the Elddar Forest was supposed to be: [basically South Ro (in darker green), Oasis, (In the center), and North Ro, (in lighter green)]</P> <P>If Ardathium was in South Ro, (as the story states), then it is shown at "B" on the map.<BR><BR>If the Elddar Forrest strectched across <STRONG>both</STRONG> Deserts of Ro, (as I believe), then Ardathium would be at point "A" on the map (which is a very close match-up with Befallen)</P> <P>Takish 'Hiz is a compromise location between EQoA and the LDON location a little further north at the southern edge of Oasis.  I placed it about halfway between the two locations.</P> <P>There is a THIRD possibility for Ardathium though, that might solve most of the contradictions.  If you change just <STRONG>one single word</STRONG> in the story, then the rest of the story makes sense, <STRONG>AND </STRONG>the Elddar Forest stays the vast expanse we have always assumed it to be!  </P> <P>If you change the word <STRONG>"Northernmost"</STRONG>, to <STRONG>"Southernmost"</STRONG>, it would fit rather nicely at the southern edge of the Elddar Forrest, (at "C"), and would assume it's role as a guardian between Innothule, and the Elddar Forest.</P> <P>So, take your pick.</P> <P>My sentimental favorite is still Befallen, though a southern Ardathium makes a lot more sense.</P> <P><A href="http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://imageshack.us/" target=_blank><IMG alt=img219/5387/elddar1fl5.gif src="http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5387/elddar1fl5.gif"></A></P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://load.imageshack.us/" target=_blank></A><A href="http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://load.imageshack.us/" target=_blank></A> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:17 PM</span>

[Yar]

Keep in mind that the map of Antonica we see now, probably is not what Tunaria looked like before Solusek Ro decided to arch the spine of the Serpent Mountains.  But, going by the map that you painstakingly created: Ardathium "A" on the map, we know as Befallen ... it doesn't make sense that it would be the site for Aradathium, as it was buried under the sands ... not built into the side of a mountain - yes, I know the entrance is in the side of a sand dune, but still (-:   Plus, the lore on Aradathium came out well after Befallen was created (a point I forgot to make yesterday), and the story wouldn't say that the desert reclaimed the remaining structures, with Befallen still being accessible. Ardathium "B" on the map is in the Oasis - not South Ro.  Sure, there's a nice tower sticking out of the sand - but if we go back to in-game lore ... the lone tower that used to stick out of the sand was, again, reclaimed by it.   So,  again not Ardathium. Takish 'Hiz I'm not touching, as I don't know enough of EQoA to comment on where it's supposed to be or not. Ardathium "C" on the map is in the right location for the lore, as that is indeed South Ro. The rest of the lore, though, pretty much contraditcts that location, and itself ...  "<i>northernmost fields outside the Elddar Forest</i>", "<i>the brilliant glinting of sunlight off of its tower's golden caps could be seen for miles above the lush, green canopy of the Elddar Forest to the south</i>", "<i>primarily governed as a war-front against the dark evils that lurked in the eastern swamps of Innothule and the Feerrott", "Ardathium would launch several campaigns against the massive trollish armies that dwelled in the swamps of Innothule to the east."  </i>The biggest problem is thus: "<i>Grenic sent a message with the pilgrims, who had to travel through the Elddar forest to reach safety as he had instructed them to do so.</i>"  "<i>A small band of the migrating pilgrims stopped at one of the elven outposts on the eastern border of the forest".  </i>So, they travelled <b>South</b>, through the forest?  To where exactly, would they find safety?  And yet,  one band went east, around the forest and stopped at an elven outpost along the way?   It gets better tho: "<i>Summons were sent back to the pilgrims that had previously been sent away. Most returned, though a few opted to remain in the new settlements that had begun to establish upon the eastern coast of the continent.</i>" -- would those new settlements become what we now know as Freeport?  How did the pilgrims end up North, when they travelled South?  <font color="#ff0000">Man, no wonder why Paladins are known to be directionally challenged these days!</font> <i> <b>ALL</b></i> those statements lead me to believe that either 1) the writer was on crack, 2) the writer didn't look at a map of Antonica when writing that bit of lore [or the map was upside-down], 3) the map or "imgage" the writer was working from was different than what we have, 4) the writer was a Paladin, or 5) all of the above.<i> </i> Probably the easiest way to fix the lore, would to change <b>most</b> of the directions in the Ardathium volumes around (ie. <i>"<b>southernmost</b> fields outside the Elddar Forest</i>", <i>"the brilliant glinting of sunlight off of its tower's golden caps could be seen for miles </i><i><b>to the south</b>,</i><i> above the lush green canopy of the Elddar Forest" -- </i>etc.), as some of the directions would be correct (ie. these two would still be correct: "<i>primarily governed as a war-front against the dark evils that lurked in the eastern swamps of Innothule and the Feerrott", "</i><i>Ardathium would launch several campaigns against the massive trollish armies that dwelled in the swamps of Innothule to the east".</i>) Would be nice if someone could look into this for us! (-:<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<DIV>Both these maps meet the criteria for the refugees fleeing to 'safety' through the Elddar Forest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both show some refugees heading east.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both show that some refugees could have ended up in the Landing/Freeport area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "Northern" Ardatium is a little more plausible, but both locations could have made it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Indeed, since refugees fleeing from a "Southern" Ardathium who managed to reach the Landing/Freeport area would have had the longest route to return, it seems more likely they would have been the least willing to make the return trip.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We really need a definitive ruling from the developers!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[I'm still hoping for a "Northern" location though]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "Northern" refugee routes:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://imageshack.us/" target=_blank><IMG alt=img103/7867/elddar3wa9.gif src="http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/7867/elddar3wa9.gif"></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "Southern" refugee routes:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://load.imageshack.us/" target=_blank><IMG alt=img122/2978/elddar2hf9.gif src="http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2978/elddar2hf9.gif"></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Yar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div><div> </div> <div>We really need a definitive ruling from the developers!</div> <div> </div><hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Yes, yes we do (-:</div>

[Kyvthuhlu]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>The first place Ardathium was ever mentioned was in EQ live, and it was meant to be a keep that waged a war with the Trolls - and promptly led to an attempted genocide of the trolls - so it's very hard to argue that it's anywhere near Befallen.Befallen, at least in EQlive (I acknowledge that the two histories clash on many accounts), was said to be an ancient Koada'Dal fortress.The descriptions of its location being "Contradictory" can most likely be chalked up to be not unlike most history, and the writer was simply...mistaken with his cardinal rose.  It wouldn't be the first time.As far as EQlive was concerned they were two different entities.<p>Though could you cite the Bone Bladed claymore quest with a link?  As I understand it, the Order of Marr's Fist did not exist in the EQlive universe.  (This is enforced by the NPC that verifies Befallen's roots).<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Kyvthuhlu on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 AM</span>

[Jindrack]

<DIV>Ardathium C would be a good approximation to where the fortress was located.  The contradictions may be coming from the trouble the writer of "Ardathium Vol. I-VI" had in translating the old texts in found in the ruins.  This is something he admitted at the end of vol. I.  "The script was ancient, but I recognized bits and pieces of the runic tongue of old."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe he mistranslated a few things, mainly in regards to direction.  "...the Fortress of Ardathium was erected in the northernmost fields outside the Elddar Forest."  Translated correctly this should say "southernmost".  The additive mark in the rune for "southernmost" to the untrained eye may look like a mark across the rune that would indicate "most not south", instead, on careful reading the of the second mark, the rune translated to "most south".  Like roman numerals, the ancient script he remembers uses an additive and subtractive quality to properties where IV equals 4, but VI equals 6.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would also explain why the account carries the mistake of naming the age wrong.  To quote "In the first years to crown the Monument Age...".  We know this couldn't be the case because humans were not around at the time.  If the writer spent more time with the documents he found he may have discovered that the runes didn't indicate the Monument Age, but the era known as The Lost Age, two ages further down the timeline.  Not entirely literate of the script he was reading, he saw a familiar rune for the Monument Age (an age most races recognize as the milestone where the power of mortals really started to flourish) and disregarded the additive marks that indicated "two more", or as a literal translation of "two ages more than the time of Monuments".  Little is known of The Lost Age.  What is known is that in this age the Elddar Forest was destroyed and humans appeared and obtained much power.  It is unknown the order of events, but these books would be a good indication that the Elddar Forest and Takish'Hiz still existed after the humans had gained somewhat of an influence in the eastern part of Tunaria.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple other mistranslations could be seen with "...green canopy of the Elddar Forest to the south", which should read "north", and "...first battles with the troll armies of the east..." should read "south".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like most mortal accounts in Norrath, not every word spoken or written by a Norrathian can be taken literally because for various reasons the accounts could be biased, taken out of context, only partly remembered and facts "made up" to fill in blanks, straight up lies, or in this case relying on poor translations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jindrack wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ardathium C would be a good approximation to where the fortress was located.  The contradictions may be coming from the trouble the writer of "Ardathium Vol. I-VI" had in translating the old texts in found in the ruins.  This is something he admitted at the end of vol. I.  "The script was ancient, but I recognized bits and pieces of the runic tongue of old."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe he mistranslated a few things, mainly in regards to direction.  "...the Fortress of Ardathium was erected in the northernmost fields outside the Elddar Forest."  Translated correctly this should say "southernmost".  The additive mark in the rune for "southernmost" to the untrained eye may look like a mark across the rune that would indicate "most not south", instead, on careful reading the of the second mark, the rune translated to "most south".  Like roman numerals, the ancient script he remembers uses an additive and subtractive quality to properties where IV equals 4, but VI equals 6.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would also explain why the account carries the mistake of naming the age wrong.  To quote "In the first years to crown the Monument Age...".  We know this couldn't be the case because humans were not around at the time.  If the writer spent more time with the documents he found he may have discovered that the runes didn't indicate the Monument Age, but the era known as The Lost Age, two ages further down the timeline.  Not entirely literate of the script he was reading, he saw a familiar rune for the Monument Age (an age most races recognize as the milestone where the power of mortals really started to flourish) and disregarded the additive marks that indicated "two more", or as a literal translation of "two ages more than the time of Monuments".  Little is known of The Lost Age.  What is known is that in this age the Elddar Forest was destroyed and humans appeared and obtained much power.  It is unknown the order of events, but these books would be a good indication that the Elddar Forest and Takish'Hiz still existed after the humans had gained somewhat of an influence in the eastern part of Tunaria.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple other mistranslations could be seen with "...green canopy of the Elddar Forest to the south", which should read "north", and "...first battles with the troll armies of the east..." should read "south".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like most mortal accounts in Norrath, not every word spoken or written by a Norrathian can be taken literally because for various reasons the accounts could be biased, taken out of context, only partly remembered and facts "made up" to fill in blanks, straight up lies, or in this case relying on poor translations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>*jaw drops*</P>

[RaphaNissi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jindrack wrote:<div>Ardathium C would be a good approximation to where the fortress was located.  The contradictions may be coming from the trouble the writer of "Ardathium Vol. I-VI" had in translating the old texts in found in the ruins.  This is something he admitted at the end of vol. I.  "The script was ancient, but I recognized bits and pieces of the runic tongue of old."</div> <div> </div> <div>I believe he mistranslated a few things, mainly in regards to direction.  "...the Fortress of Ardathium was erected in the northernmost fields outside the Elddar Forest."  Translated correctly this should say "southernmost".  The additive mark in the rune for "southernmost" to the untrained eye may look like a mark across the rune that would indicate "most not south", instead, on careful reading the of the second mark, the rune translated to "most south".  Like roman numerals, the ancient script he remembers uses an additive and subtractive quality to properties where IV equals 4, but VI equals 6.</div> <div> </div> <div>This would also explain why the account carries the mistake of naming the age wrong.  To quote "In the first years to crown the Monument Age...".  We know this couldn't be the case because humans were not around at the time.  If the writer spent more time with the documents he found he may have discovered that the runes didn't indicate the Monument Age, but the era known as The Lost Age, two ages further down the timeline.  Not entirely literate of the script he was reading, he saw a familiar rune for the Monument Age (an age most races recognize as the milestone where the power of mortals really started to flourish) and disregarded the additive marks that indicated "two more", or as a literal translation of "two ages more than the time of Monuments".  Little is known of The Lost Age.  What is known is that in this age the Elddar Forest was destroyed and humans appeared and obtained much power.  It is unknown the order of events, but these books would be a good indication that the Elddar Forest and Takish'Hiz still existed after the humans had gained somewhat of an influence in the eastern part of Tunaria.</div> <div> </div> <div>A couple other mistranslations could be seen with "...green canopy of the Elddar Forest to the south", which should read "north", and "...first battles with the troll armies of the east..." should read "south".</div> <div> </div> <div>Like most mortal accounts in Norrath, not every word spoken or written by a Norrathian can be taken literally because for various reasons the accounts could be biased, taken out of context, only partly remembered and facts "made up" to fill in blanks, straight up lies, or in this case relying on poor translations.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>This is one of the best posts I have read lately.  Thank you for explaining the..uhh..misinterpretation of the old texts.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[nikitta28]

You coulda just said we made a typo.<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikitta28 wrote:<BR>You coulda just said we made a typo.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But it wasn't a typo. it was intentional.

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>This is much appreciated Jindrack, thank you.</P> <P>Since there are no ruins anywhere in the area south of the Sand Sea that I am aware of, then I suppose the story is correct in this respect:  The sands buried Ardathium without a trace.</P> <P>The only thing in this transition area of note are some half buried ruins just at the edge of the Sands themselves, [southwest of the dervish camp according to EQ Atlas], and a wizard's portal just to the south of the Sand Sea.</P> <P>Perhaps the ruins may have some connection with Ardathium; (or not).</P> <P>Again, thank you.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Those ruins show the same design as every other found all over the desert and elsewhere on Feydwere. They are more than likely the remnants of Takish'Hiz or High Elven cities found among the Elddar Forest.</DIV>

[Yar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jindrack wrote:<div>Ardathium C would be a good approximation to where the fortress was located.  The contradictions may be coming from the trouble the writer of "Ardathium Vol. I-VI" had in translating the old texts in found in the ruins.  This is something he admitted at the end of vol. I.  "The script was ancient, but I recognized bits and pieces of the runic tongue of old."</div> <div> </div> <div>I believe he mistranslated a few things, mainly in regards to direction.  "...the Fortress of Ardathium was erected in the northernmost fields outside the Elddar Forest."  Translated correctly this should say "southernmost".  The additive mark in the rune for "southernmost" to the untrained eye may look like a mark across the rune that would indicate "most not south", instead, on careful reading the of the second mark, the rune translated to "most south".  Like roman numerals, the ancient script he remembers uses an additive and subtractive quality to properties where IV equals 4, but VI equals 6.</div> <div> </div> <div>This would also explain why the account carries the mistake of naming the age wrong.  To quote "In the first years to crown the Monument Age...".  We know this couldn't be the case because humans were not around at the time.  If the writer spent more time with the documents he found he may have discovered that the runes didn't indicate the Monument Age, but the era known as The Lost Age, two ages further down the timeline.  Not entirely literate of the script he was reading, he saw a familiar rune for the Monument Age (an age most races recognize as the milestone where the power of mortals really started to flourish) and disregarded the additive marks that indicated "two more", or as a literal translation of "two ages more than the time of Monuments".  Little is known of The Lost Age.  What is known is that in this age the Elddar Forest was destroyed and humans appeared and obtained much power.  It is unknown the order of events, but these books would be a good indication that the Elddar Forest and Takish'Hiz still existed after the humans had gained somewhat of an influence in the eastern part of Tunaria.</div> <div> </div> <div>A couple other mistranslations could be seen with "...green canopy of the Elddar Forest to the south", which should read "north", and "...first battles with the troll armies of the east..." should read "south".</div> <div> </div> <div>Like most mortal accounts in Norrath, not every word spoken or written by a Norrathian can be taken literally because for various reasons the accounts could be biased, taken out of context, only partly remembered and facts "made up" to fill in blanks, straight up lies, or in this case relying on poor translations.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Thanks so much for the clarification!  Awesome (-:</div>

[Kyvthuhlu]

Awesomely that's about what I had figured, wee.<div></div>

[nikitta28]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> nikitta28 wrote:You coulda just said we made a typo. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>But it wasn't a typo. it was intentional.<hr></blockquote>Right.</div>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikitta28 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikitta28 wrote:<BR>You coulda just said we made a typo.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But it wasn't a typo. it was intentional.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Right.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Listen, they INTENTIONALLY wrote the story like that. They intentionally wrote it so the author didn' quite know how to properly translate the ancient runes that he learned it from, so there are mistakes found within.<BR></DIV>

[Dajuuk]

<DIV>All in game lore in EQ2 or EQ1 for that matter is intentionally colored by the limitations and perceptions of the npc providing the lore.   This accomplishes two tasks immersion tasks for the EQ2 players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  It makes the world feel more real if there is contradictory lore.   Our real life history books are filled with contradictory "Facts" we are used to the contradictions and it makes us feel comfortable.   There is enough true lore out there to give players the a feeling that they understand what happened, but not enough to definitively know again this is like real life.</DIV> <DIV>2)  In the event they do make a mistake it doesn't cause an immersion break because we are already used to npc's not being all knowing gods, and that they make mistakes.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for this incident, we'll never know if the designer who wrote the book made a mistake, or if this was one of those intentional ones.  Given the thought that was put into how the NPC made the mistakes, it sounds like it wasn't a mistake though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>