Nature of the gods

[Harob]

As a monk, I am debating having Harobel worship Quellious or none at all. For this question to be answered, I must first recognize the nature of the gods. Even Quellious herself was the one to suggest the Rending and the Shattering which caused so much strife and death. I have a few questions regarding the gods.- The gods are mortal or immortal? From the Tome of Destiny, we invaded their planes and nearly killed them. So can they be killed by us?- Who created them, and why? The Nameless?- What is the afterlife of Norrath like? What good things come from the praise and worship of deities (particularly Quellious)?It seems almost ridiculous to have my character worship a god with all they have done.<div></div>

[Renita_Serafim]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Harobel wrote:<BR>As a monk, I am debating having Harobel worship Quellious or none at all. For this question to be answered, I must first recognize the nature of the gods. Even Quellious herself was the one to suggest the Rending and the Shattering which caused so much strife and death. I have a few questions regarding the gods.<BR><BR>- The gods are mortal or immortal? From the Tome of Destiny, we invaded their planes and nearly killed them. So can they be killed by us?</P> <P><A href="http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read.php?link=eq2wheeloftime" target=_blank>Aataltaal knows much about this subject.</A></P> <P><BR>- Who created them, and why? The Nameless?</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=11265#M11265" target=_blank>The Nameless</A> <FONT color=#ff0000>created the gods, yes.</FONT></P> <P><BR>- What is the afterlife of Norrath like? What good things come from the praise and worship of deities (particularly Quellious)?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The souls of the dead pass on to a realm known as the</FONT> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=7204#M7204" target=_blank>Ethernere</A>.<BR><BR>It seems almost ridiculous to have my character worship a god with all they have done.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Welcome to my main's (Renita's) world.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Astralmage on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[Harob]

Is it known how the judgements are conducted into the ethernere for souls to be returned to Norrath or be sent to a plane?<div></div>

[Dreyco]

OOC: Actually... the nameless did not create the gods.  The nameless created the cosmos.  Veeshan was the first to come to Norrath, raking her claws across the land, and depositing her kin upon Norrath. It was after this that the beings now known as the gods were attracted to Norrath, creating races in their image. <div></div>

[Renita_Serafim]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Harobel wrote:<BR>Is it known how the judgements are conducted into the ethernere for souls to be returned to Norrath or be sent to a plane?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This isn't clear. The implication (as far as I can see) is that if you worship, you're in your god's hands now. If you don't, you suffer in the Ethernere for a little while before you return to Norrath to be reincarnated.

[Coccinea_Maga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Harobel wrote:- Who created them, and why? The Nameless?<div></div><hr></blockquote>From the <a href="http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read.php?link=ages_creation" target=_blank>Book of Ages:</a><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">In the beginning, all that existed was void. Empty of all, whether it be time or space. A vast and endless nothingness cloaked in a deep and all consuming silence. </blockquote><blockquote>Within this void existed "The Nameless", a power so incredible that in the entire universe, it knew only itself to exist. It had no idea why it was there, just that that it was....But the whole chaos needed order, shaping and fine touch. And so the Nameless created The Gods of Power. To do so, The Nameless reached into the chaos, drew forth four equal portions of the stuff of existence and shaped it into the Gods that would divide the universe into form....The Nameless then looked into its new creation and felt sorrow because it could not experience it, for the creation could not contain the Nameless and so it decided to find a way to explore this new existence. So the Nameless called out to the Gods of Power and commanded them to make minions that it could share in their experience of this new world. Each of the Gods of Power reached into their elemental planes and drew forth a portion that they shaped with their will into what would be eyes and hands for The Nameless and themselves. They created beings of energy, much like themselves, but beings of will born of the matter of the cosmos. ...<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote> </div>

[Dreyco]

OOC: I stand corrected <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thank you for the clarification. <div></div>

[Harob]

<div><blockquote><hr>Astralmage wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Harobel wrote:Is it known how the judgements are conducted into the ethernere for souls to be returned to Norrath or be sent to a plane? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>This isn't clear. The implication (as far as I can see) is that if you worship, you're in your god's hands now. If you don't, you suffer in the Ethernere for a little while before you return to Norrath to be reincarnated.<hr></blockquote>With that knowledge, Harobel will certainly worship a god, then. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I can only imagine what the afterlife is for those who follow Innoruuk. heh.)Oh, and that Wheel of Time story with the elf was depressing. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Harobel wrote:<BR>As a monk, I am debating having Harobel worship Quellious or none at all. For this question to be answered, I must first recognize the nature of the gods. Even Quellious herself was the one to suggest the Rending and the Shattering which caused so much strife and death. I have a few questions regarding the gods.<BR><BR>- The gods are mortal or immortal? From the Tome of Destiny, we invaded their planes and nearly killed them. So can they be killed by us?<BR>- Who created them, and why? The Nameless?<BR>- What is the afterlife of Norrath like? What good things come from the praise and worship of deities (particularly Quellious)?<BR><BR>It seems almost ridiculous to have my character worship a god with all they have done.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As I understand the gods are quote "Immortal" but I do believe they can be killed course i'm not 100% sure on that fact.  There are two types of Immortality, 1 being Immortality but not having true immortality meaning you can be killed and the other is having eternal life with true immortality where no mater how much you are attacked you cannot be killed.</P> <P>As another has said and I do believe that The Nameless created the cosmos with the gods existing alongside the nameless.  Course thats where it gets mirky because from my understanding there are 4 elemental gods and beneath those gods are the gods of influence. </P> <P>As for the after life I have no idea about it or what happens. <BR></P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>The reason why the evil gods tried to stop the mortals in the Plane of Time was so that Zebuxoruk could not reveal to them the secrets of how to become, or even destroy a god.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Zeb was allowed to continue, the mortals would soon learn how to destroy the essence of a god itself, as well as become gods themselves. The chaos that would ensue would tear the universe apart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A God can be physically killed, but that's only how they want others to percieve them. Thier essence would be weakened, but probably never permanently defeated. They are both Mortal and Immortal, and yet neither Mortal or Immortal at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of your questions go beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for worshipping the dieties, that remains to be revealed and seen, so give it time.</DIV>

[Evilcow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreyco wrote:<BR>OOC:<BR><BR>Actually... the nameless did not create the gods.  The nameless created the cosmos.  Veeshan was the first to come to Norrath, raking her claws across the land, and depositing her kin upon Norrath.<BR><BR>It was after this that the beings now known as the gods were attracted to Norrath, creating races in their image.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>edit posted with out reading thread lol sorry<p>Message Edited by Evilcow on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The reason why the evil gods tried to stop the mortals in the Plane of Time was so that Zebuxoruk could not reveal to them the secrets of how to become, or even destroy a god.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Zeb was allowed to continue, the mortals would soon learn how to destroy the essence of a god itself, as well as become gods themselves. The chaos that would ensue would tear the universe apart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A God can be physically killed, but that's only how they want others to percieve them. Thier essence would be weakened, but probably never permanently defeated. They are both Mortal and Immortal, and yet neither Mortal or Immortal at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of your questions go beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for worshipping the dieties, that remains to be revealed and seen, so give it time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is quite understandable that a good could in EQ2 "not be killed" completely because their essence would live on allowing them to recouperate.  As for my quesitons going beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding I kinda doubt it. </P> <P>From what your talking about it seems as if the gods are gods but yet are not gods at all.  Perhaps they are the first mortals created by the 4 supreme elemental gods of the purest nature telling them/allowing them/helping them ascend to god hood.  As for the explanation with Zeb that i'll buy cause I don't know the 100% truth behind it all course do we really know the 100% truth behind anything. :smileywink:<BR></P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The reason why the evil gods tried to stop the mortals in the Plane of Time was so that Zebuxoruk could not reveal to them the secrets of how to become, or even destroy a god.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Zeb was allowed to continue, the mortals would soon learn how to destroy the essence of a god itself, as well as become gods themselves. The chaos that would ensue would tear the universe apart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A God can be physically killed, but that's only how they want others to percieve them. Thier essence would be weakened, but probably never permanently defeated. They are both Mortal and Immortal, and yet neither Mortal or Immortal at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of your questions go beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for worshipping the dieties, that remains to be revealed and seen, so give it time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is quite understandable that a good could in EQ2 "not be killed" completely because their essence would live on allowing them to recouperate.  As for my quesitons going beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding I kinda doubt it. </P> <P>From what your talking about it seems as if the gods are gods but yet are not gods at all.  Perhaps they are the first mortals created by the 4 supreme elemental gods of the purest nature telling them/allowing them/helping them ascend to god hood.  As for the explanation with Zeb that i'll buy cause I don't know the 100% truth behind it all course do we really know the 100% truth behind anything. :smileywink:<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No. They are gods, but I would think that that it's not appropriate to think that the term "God" is universal through all forms of media both in Everquest and in everything else in Human existance, and shares the exact same deffinition every time.</P> <P>Of course, who are we to question what would actually happen to a god if such a scenario existed in the real world?</P>

[RaphaNissi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Amana wrote:<div></div>It is quite understandable that a good could in EQ2 "not be killed" completely because their essence would live on allowing them to recouperate.  As for my quesitons going beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding I kinda doubt it.  <p>From what your talking about it seems as if the gods are gods but yet are not gods at all.  Perhaps they are the first mortals created by the 4 supreme elemental gods of the purest nature telling them/allowing them/helping them ascend to god hood.  As for the explanation with Zeb that i'll buy cause I don't know the 100% truth behind it all course do we really know the 100% truth behind anything. :smileywink:"</p><p></p><p>To me, gods should have the "omni" powers (omnipresence, omnipotent, etc..).  I don't think these gods possess all those qualities.  They have a lot of power and are worshipped.  Maybe that is all that really defines their godhood.</p></blockquote></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaphaNissi wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> It is quite understandable that a good could in EQ2 "not be killed" completely because their essence would live on allowing them to recouperate.  As for my quesitons going beyond the limits of comprehensible understanding I kinda doubt it. <BR> <P>From what your talking about it seems as if the gods are gods but yet are not gods at all.  Perhaps they are the first mortals created by the 4 supreme elemental gods of the purest nature telling them/allowing them/helping them ascend to god hood.  As for the explanation with Zeb that i'll buy cause I don't know the 100% truth behind it all course do we really know the 100% truth behind anything. :smileywink:"<BR></P><BR> <P><BR></P> <P>To me, gods should have the "omni" powers (omnipresence, omnipotent, etc..).  I don't think these gods possess all those qualities.  They have a lot of power and are worshipped.  Maybe that is all that really defines their godhood.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I guess thats all we can really do is speculate what defines the others dietys other than the 4 primary gods as that gods.  I have heard many theorys about what gives the gods their powers.</P> <P>One theory I have heard is that the gods derive power from their worshipers.  The amount of worshipers you have the amount of power that particular "Influential" diety has.  This however falls through and breaks down when you ask how the gods originally came into being.</P> <P>Another theory is that the gods are created from the human emotion and thats where their power derives from.  Valor, Love, Hate, Fear, Trickery/fun, etc... along those lines of emotions.  Again though this can break down on a certain level because of how the gods were originally created. </P> <P>The only thing we can really and I do mean really say for certain is a couple of things:</P> <P>A. The Nameless created the universe and this bit of fact cannot be argued.  From good to neutral and all the way to the evil sides this fact is one that is rarely if ever disputed.</P> <P>B. There were a set amount of gods that already existed *atleast in theory* i'm not 100% sure about Veeshan.  However I am certain the 4 elemental gods aka earth, air, fir, and water existed alongside the nameless, or at the beginning of the cosmos itself.</P> <P>C. It was through the power of the 4 elemental gods that the lesser planes or the planes of influence came into being and possibly is how the influential gods came into being.  This being Mithanial Marr, Erollsi Mar, Tunare, Karana, Cazic-Thule, Inorruk *sp*, etc... .</P> <P>D. As those gods came into being lesser beings were created sometimes in the gods image but differing.  Thus is how we get the bringing about of us mortals into the world of Norrath. </P> <P> </P> <P>Atleast this is my interpretation of it all from what I have seen.<BR></P>

[Renita_Serafim]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Harobel wrote:<BR><BR>It seems almost ridiculous to have my character worship a god with all they have done.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Something that occured to me while I was thinking about how roleplayers might play their characters in regard to the return of the gods.</P> <P>Are the Norrathian people (on average) going to worship because they <EM>want</EM> to worship or because they actually believe in their god's princibles, or because they're scared of the consequences if they don't worship a god? The gods have already proven themselves to be wrathful and cruel. Who is to say that they won't lash out against the mortals again if they refuse to worship?</P><p>Message Edited by Astralmage on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 AM</span>

[kyrr]

<DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>How many people like Greek mythology as much as me? Well if you're familiar w/their creation myth and all the others then you'd realize that the Greek gods and the Norrathian gods are very similar. The Greeks were like uber peeps. They had super powers, but they weren't omniscient. They quarreled and had character flaws like people did. First there was chaos which gave birth to the Titans who then gave birth to the gods who killed most of the Titans. Lots of similarities between the 2 groups. Sony prolly used multi god religions as a framework for making their "pantheon".</FONT></DIV>

[Dregor]

<div><blockquote><hr>Astralmage wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Harobel wrote:It seems almost ridiculous to have my character worship a god with all they have done. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Something that occured to me while I was thinking about how roleplayers might play their characters in regard to the return of the gods.</p> <p>Are the Norrathian people (on average) going to worship because they <em>want</em> to worship or because they actually believe in their god's princibles, or because they're scared of the consequences if they don't worship a god? The gods have already proven themselves to be wrathful and cruel. Who is to say that they won't lash out against the mortals again if they refuse to worship?</p><p>Message Edited by Astralmage on <span class="date_text">07-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:21 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think a lot of the Norrathian people are going to worship because they get neat powers for doing so!  In roleplay terms, I'd think that a lot of people would be disinfranchised with the gods and not want to take any kind of worship of them seriously, but on the flipside there are those that will gladly give their worship away for the exact reason religion exists in the first place, to give themselves a sense of hope and well-being.</div>

[Renita_Serafim]

The out of character reason for wanting to worship the gods is because you get neat powers. Realistically, the gods are only going to give you those powers if you do their bidding. Sure, in metagame terms, this is only the case if you're a roleplayer - but in world setting terms, I would think that (powers aside) the strongest motivations would be genuine faith or fear that the gods will punish you for not worshipping. The Norrathian gods would not give me a sense of hope and well being in the least, because they're prone to pettulant fits of temper whenever they feel like. The results are catastrophic.

[KniteShayd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kyrrah wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>How many people like Greek mythology as much as me? Well if you're familiar w/their creation myth and all the others then you'd realize that the Greek gods and the Norrathian gods are very similar. The Greeks were like uber peeps. They had super powers, but they weren't omniscient. They quarreled and had character flaws like people did. First there was chaos which gave birth to the Titans who then gave birth to the gods who killed most of the Titans. Lots of similarities between the 2 groups. Sony prolly used multi god religions as a framework for making their "pantheon".</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This seems to be exactly how it is, with thier respective differences of course.</P> <P>I always envisioned moks serving Karana(natural power), Tunare(preservation), Rodcet Nife(life), The Rathe(strength), Mith Marr(valor and honor), The Tribunal(justice), Xegony(freedom), Sol Ro(dynamic power), E'ci(resilient discipline) as an alternative to Quellious(tranquility, peace)</P><p>Message Edited by KniteShayd on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KniteShayd wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>This seems to be exactly how it is, with thier respective differences of course.</P> <P>I always envisioned moks serving Karana(natural power), Tunare(preservation), Rodcet Nife(life), The Rathe(strength), Mith Marr(valor and honor), The Tribunal(justice), Xegony(freedom), Sol Ro(dynamic power), E'ci(resilient discipline) as an alternative to Quellious(tranquility, peace)</P> <P>Message Edited by KniteShayd on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks have always worshiped Quellious or Cazic Thule as thier only god (Cazic Thule if you're Iksar, Quellious if you're Human of the Ashen Order of Freeport, and Agnostic if you're Human of the Silent Fist Clan of Qeynos).</DIV>

[KniteShayd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KniteShayd wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>This seems to be exactly how it is, with thier respective differences of course.</P> <P>I always envisioned moks serving Karana(natural power), Tunare(preservation), Rodcet Nife(life), The Rathe(strength), Mith Marr(valor and honor), The Tribunal(justice), Xegony(freedom), Sol Ro(dynamic power), E'ci(resilient discipline) as an alternative to Quellious(tranquility, peace)</P> <P>Message Edited by KniteShayd on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks have always worshiped Quellious or Cazic Thule as thier only god (Cazic Thule if you're Iksar, Quellious if you're Human of the Ashen Order of Freeport, and Agnostic if you're Human of the Silent Fist Clan of Qeynos).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, traditionally speaking.  </P> <P>I was giving options to consider for those RP'n now that the game is anything goes.</P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>All the same, your deffinitions for Rathe, Xegony, and Solusek Ro are..... interesting if that were actually the case.</DIV>

[KniteShayd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>All the same, your deffinitions for Rathe, Xegony, and Solusek Ro are..... interesting if that were actually the case.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love you too:smileywink::smileytongue:</P> <P>LoL</P> <P>They are just a creative way to justify worship/alliance with those dieties.</P> <P>Solusek, or even Fennin, gorvern fire and sun respectively.  Fire is considered to be a dynamic energy.  it can be likened both to spirit and chi. (RP goal to acheive: utmost control of Chi and energy, explosive force)</P> <P>Xegony (ruler of air for those that don't know) can be admired for her aspects.  the ability to fly has always been a symbol of freedom.  this can apply to freedom of thought motion and even limits.  Philosophically, it can be both there and not, it can be gentle and it can be penetrating.  Its a duality in nature type thing. (RP goal to achive: weightless transendance, skill in levitation, free aspect of the mind)</P> <P>The Rathe are rulers of the earth.  that encompasses both plant and rock. The plant is respected as life.  depending on the plant, it is strong and can yet be flexable.  it can move stone, withstand wind and water, and fuel fire.  Rock on the other hand is Strong, immovable and dominant.  it is a force of strength and takes alot to break it.  it is willful. (RP goal to achieve: strength in spirit and body, be unconquerable, focused not only on strength but stamina)</P> <P>those would be indirect reasons to choose those as dieties.  Philosophical, yes. But thats how many monks are.  the elements play a large part in martial arts and R/L eastern philosophies.</P> <P>ps. forgot to mention Prexus, Povar, and Tarew Marr (fluidity, adaptiveness, and purity; respectively)</P>

[Wilde_Night]

<DIV>Some of our characters never gave up worshipping their gods, even after they left.</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kyrrah wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#6633cc>How many people like Greek mythology as much as me? Well if you're familiar w/their creation myth and all the others then you'd realize that the Greek gods and the Norrathian gods are very similar. The Greeks were like uber peeps. They had super powers, but they weren't omniscient. They quarreled and had character flaws like people did. First there was chaos which gave birth to the Titans who then gave birth to the gods who killed most of the Titans. Lots of similarities between the 2 groups. Sony prolly used multi god religions as a framework for making their "pantheon".</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually Kyrrah if you are interested in game development one course they offer at that Digipen school is mythology.  It is then in that mythology course where you learn about the different stories, tales and such that have been recorded in human history *just a guess*. </P> <P>It is from that atleast imho that many game developers draw ideas for their stories that unfold within the gaming universe. <BR></P>