Conjurer and necro who is really the evil class.

[roguestrike02]

<DIV>A conjurer summons a living creature from an elemental plane to fight for them. A necromancer takes a dead body and reanimates it and has it fight for them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which one is evil and which one is good. Coercers are considered evil because they force living creatures to fight for them. This is the same thing Conjurers do yet they are considered good. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand a Necro mancer takes a dead body with no soul or feelings and holds it together with magic and has it fight for them. The undead creature has no mind of its own it feels no pane and is already dead if it is destroyed it is no worse off than it was before the necro came along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand the conjurer takes a living creature some animals some intelligent and makes them fight for them these creatures feel pane they feel fear and when they are destroyed they are dead. The conjurer destroys there lives yet they are good?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't post here much and I am not sure this is the correct place for this but I didn't know where else to put it and i though you guys would enjoy discussing this.</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roguestrike02 wrote:<BR> <DIV>A conjurer summons a living creature from an elemental plane to fight for them. A necromancer takes a dead body and reanimates it and has it fight for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which one is evil and which one is good. Coercers are considered evil because they force living creatures to fight for them. This is the same thing Conjurers do yet they are considered good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand a Necro mancer takes a dead body with no soul or feelings and holds it together with magic and has it fight for them. The undead creature has no mind of its own it feels no pane and is already dead if it is destroyed it is no worse off than it was before the necro came along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand the conjurer takes a living creature some animals some intelligent and makes them fight for them these creatures feel pane they feel fear and when they are destroyed they are dead. The conjurer destroys there lives yet they are good?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't post here much and I am not sure this is the correct place for this but I didn't know where else to put it and i though you guys would enjoy discussing this.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No no this is a good place for this type of discussion because to me it does have merrit.  But I will agrue against your points stating a kind of counter point if you will.</P> <P>ShadowKnight-We get a spell to summon a dumbfire skeleton pet and on the description it says it drags the quote "Soul" of a victim from their grave to fight for us. </P> <P>I believe the same can be said of necromancers for their zombie, shadow, and caster pets wherebye they rob the souls of those beings making them do their bidding.</P> <P>Conjurors on the other hand do not "rob souls" but enchant as it were the elements of air, fire and earth taking raw materials to form a loose entity telling it to do this and that.  These creatures have no mentality of which to speak and are probably loosely connected to the Conjuror through some sort of will/magic.</P> <P>It would be a pretty interesting but anoying twist to see the developers tie pets to their owners and when the pet dies the owner takes 10% damage to their health.  This applying to Conjurors and Necromancers only since they have the real "Physical" pets.</P> <P> </P> <P>I will however support your idea bud by stating the Warden/Fury ability to control animals.  You can believe that we A. commun with those creatures either them being passive or agressive calling them to aid us, or B. forcing our will upon those animals commanding them to do what we say. </P>

[roguestrike02]

<P>While It may be true that the undead creatures that the necro makes have souls attached to them thus making them evil forcing a resting soul to come back and serve them that does not counter the fact that conjurers summon living creature to fight for them.</P> <P>I remember in the old class quests in qeynos it states that the summoner doesnt create what they summon but find the "holes" in the world and pull the things they summon through these "holes". Clearly these pets that they pull through these "Holes" are creatures from the elemental planes because there power is elemental. Everything they do is either fire earth air or cold which is clearly elemental power from the elemental planes. I don't know what was stated in the freeport summoner class quest because i never got the chance to do it.</P> <P>So while I agree with you that Necros are evil if they use souls in there pets I also feel that conjurers are just as evil because the pets they have are not created but pulled into norrath through these "holes".</P>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div>Conjuror's summon elementals which are not conscience beings. Also, according to the L&L book "Summoning an Elemental", in the world of Everquest II Conjuror's no longer summon their minions from the planes, they use the elements that are near them to call forth an elemental.  Elementals are created and controlled by the Conjuror's mind, if the Conjuror is not capable of concetrating enough to control the minion they become golems that can only react, and forces of nature tend to be quite violent.<div></div>

[vikingthug]

<P><EM><FONT color=#ffff00>     This isnt as tricky as it may appear in my opinion.  Necro's, practice Necromancy. Which isnt really what the Necro's in EQ2 practice.</FONT></EM></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><EM>     </EM> alteration of Middle English <EM>nigromancie, </EM>from Middle French, from Medieval Latin <EM>nigromantia, </EM>by folk etymology from Late Latin <EM>necromantia, </EM>from Late Greek <EM>nekromanteia, </EM>from Greek <EM>nekr- + -manteia </EM>-mancy<BR><B>1</B> <B>:</B> conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>    <EM> So it seems that the Necro's of EQ seem to practice more of a summoning art or a quasi voodoo with conjuration thrown in.  But since they do summon the dead, in varrious forms, and since most cultures look toward those who practice the nercromantic arts at evil, then yes I suppose that they would be conscidered evil.</EM></FONT></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff00>     Summoning Elementals while on the surfice doesnt seem evil or twisted, I would beg to differ.  Forcing the elements to do your bidding is a perversion of the natural world IMHO and I would look at that as being a form of evil.  The druids seem to have a communal relationship with nature and try to maintain a balance and coexist with nature on a more benign basis.  I wouldnt call it good, or evil, but neutral since nature is neither good nor evil.</FONT></EM></P>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>vikingthug wrote:<div></div><p><em><font color="#ffff00">I wouldnt call it good, or evil, but neutral since nature is neither good nor evil.</font></em></p><hr></blockquote>Can Freeportians be Conjurors in EQII? I'm not sure. Anyway, in EQOA and EQLive the Magician class was a neutral profession. I suppose its what is truly in the heart of the Conjuror which decides if they are evil or not and what deeds their summoned minion may do.Edit: This also goes for Wizards, they can either abuse the forces of nature for evil or use them for good.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Red_Rock_Candy on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Yeah. Elementals and golems arn't living creatures. Conjurers arn't evil.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necromancers clearly are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They defile the remains of a dead corpse by bringing it to life and forcing it to do whatever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would you be very happy if someone just reanimated your own grandmother and started making her do things like attack the neighbor's dog or make her stand in the middle of the street or something?</DIV>

[Red_Rock_Candy]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div> </div><div>Would you be very happy if someone just reanimated your own grandmother and started making her do things like attack the neighbor's dog or make her stand in the middle of the street or something?</div><hr></blockquote>That... would... be... AWESOME!<div></div>

[IrishWonder]

<DIV>I think this is being looked at the wrong way. No, summoning elemental creatures does not make a Conjuror evil... BUT, Conjurors can be evil depending on what they choose to do with those summoned elementals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As has been stated, the elementals we use have no sentience. They don't feel fear, pain, etc. They do what we tell them to do and that's that. No, forcing subservience on a non-sentient being isn't evil. Does holding a gun make you evil? No. However, using that gun for evil purposes IS evil. Likewise, Conjurors can use their powers to cause harm to others... thus making them evil through their actions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necromancers, on the other hand, are a different story. It could be argued either way, but the way I see it, disturbing the dead to carry out your intentions, regardless of what they may be, is an immoral and evil act. Not saying someone couldn't roleplay a good Necromancer... it would just be tough to get around that concession in my opinion :smileywink:</DIV>

[KidMangaX]

<P>rougestrike02, you have just [Removed for Content] me off. I am a lvl 69 necro, and if you ever compare me to those goodie conjs again bad things will happen. I AM EVIL! YOU CANNOT HARM ME I AM THE SAHAQUIELNAUGHT *****!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok more on topic, Necromancers are evil because we are basically stuffing our mana into dead bodies. Also, we have full control over them, like making them kill people ((which is very evil the last time I played Oblivion)) and many of the high level pets are female.....goth females...and those are pretty evil too. Get the point?</P> <P> </P> <P>Conjurers on the other hand, ARENT evil. Mostly because they are not "tearing minions from the plane of fire and enslaving them" as you seem to think, but rather, they spend all day walking around, gathering rocks, and stuffing their mana into those, thus making their OWN servants, not enslaving preexisting ones. Last time I checked, geomancers weren't evil, and slave owners were. Get the point?</P> <P> </P> <P>Necromancers= Slave owners....evil. Iksar necros pwn, btw.</P> <P>Conjurers= use their mana to move rocks around....worthless unless they rolled a cheapo 30+ int class like erudite or gnome</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[KidMangaX]

oh, and another thing, Coercers shouldnt be evil, because they are basically just using magically enchanted fast talking to convince the target to join them. Its the target's own free will, even if it is magically distorted.

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah. Elementals and golems arn't living creatures. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I think at the very least you have to admit that the Fire magi pets conjurors get are living and conscious... or does the Keeper of Secrets have no soul? :smileytongue:<BR>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> troodon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah. Elementals and golems arn't living creatures. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I think at the very least you have to admit that the Fire magi pets conjurors get are living and conscious... or does the Keeper of Secrets have no soul? :smileytongue:<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, I wouldn't think that the KoS does have a soul. He's just another one of those mysteries that arn't really ment to be figured out, in my oppinion anyway.

[Shonin]

<DIV>Good and evil what about shades of grey?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Wouldn't a mother love to see and speak to her dead son just one more time.  A necromance could quite easily rip him out of the ground so that a loving mother could hug her son one more time. Isn't that a good dead? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if the necromancer uses the son to rip his mother to shreds so he can loot her and raise her corpse as well, would that be evil?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all about perspective, honestly what good is all those dead bodies doing anyone anyways, quite worrying about any moral dilemas about good and evil, it's just meat and bones who cares?  No different than the elements at all, just a different form of them.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We will all die one day, better to be recylceled than just to sit there and be worm food.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well that's this necromancer's thoughts about this topic.</DIV>

[Zabjade]

<div></div><font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Not going to get into the debate other then to say a Necromancer or Shadowknight might not see their actions as evil (unless they are one of those creepy "it's a good day for evil to flourish types I see running around in Freeport) Here is how my Shadowknight thinks. <b><i><font color="#ff0000"> "The Nameless created life, life must eventually end, I am a reaper.  Souls need rest and combat is the way I give them rest, I am oblivion.  With old life ended, new life can begin, I am a sower."</font></i></b> </font></font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zabjade on <span class=date_text>07-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[shadowscale]

keep in mind not everything dead really wants to be dead. and that some spirits never got to have life. by a necromancer summoning them they can live agen to fufuil a need, such as vengence agenst somthing or to just have new expereance. and like zabjade said its a matter of perspective, whats evil and vile to one is just another means to accomplish something to another. corpses aret being used anymore right? why not use the tools avalable. all magic is netural, its just the one useing that determins the use,<p>Message Edited by shadowscale on <span class=date_text>07-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

[Themaginator]

<DIV>all i have to say is elementals do not have their own souls they are usually made like robots, to serve their creators </DIV>

[Zabjade]

<font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">Hehe you need to read Summoning an Elemental </font></font></font><div></div>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Not just that book, but I'm sure the Council of the Rathe, the Triumvirate, as well as Fenin and Solusek Ro would all beg to differ.  I seem to remember one Master Yael definately seemed to have a personality all his own!  Whether they have souls, I do not know, but many elementals are deffinately thinking, feeling, beings.  Just because they aren't animals, doesn't mean they aren't sentient.  It would not surprise me if, before even dragon-kind was on Norrath, there were elementals.  Mortals were pit agains very powerful elementals when they invaded the planes of the gods, all of which seemed to think and feel in ways similar to mortals.  It seems to me that elementals are just as sentient as Treants, and were perhaps created in similar fashion.  Mana imbuing simple elements with life!</P> <P>As to Coercers, well, I think it is a little more than flashy words, but that is perhaps my own character.  Everything he does revolves around him dominating the mind of others.  His very will crushes all resistance to his commands.  But to an Erudite, the mind is above all else.</P> <P>One could easily make the argument that good and evil is all subjective.  That's not really how things are split in EQ2.  It's split between what's socially acceptable and encouraged in the two societies we're given.  For the most part, Freeport accepts pursuing power and victory by any means necessary.  Whether this be summoning a corpse to attack what was once his family, or by invading the mind of a spy, to find out how much he knows.</P> <P>Qeynos does what is right be the people.  Corpses walking through town is disturbing to most citizens, especially if it may be someone they know.  Thugs bullying commoners is not only frowned upon, but most likely a punishable offense.  Positions that inspire hope and joy are lifted up, while occupations who command through fear are completely outlawed.  Not really right or wrong, just two ways of looking at something.</P> <P>I do agree, though, that Conjuring is very neutral, as is the Illusionist's art. (If anything, it would be more evil, since it uses deception to trick the mind into seeing something that isn't real).  Coercion isn't much better, as it is forcing someone to do something against their will, and how swashbucklers, ie pirates, became socially acceptable, I'll never know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nocturnal Abyss on <span class=date_text>07-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 PM</span>