Of Norath, Mana, and the gods. (or Children of Norath)

[TolenClearbrook]

In Norath's Past, the mortal races channeled power (mana) from the gods to cast magic and clerical spells. The gods were thought to be the end all of power, the bottom line. Zeb found out the secret to being a god and was exiled by the gods for fear he would share his knowledge. Just knowing this lends to the idea that the gods are not the bottom line in power, magic, and life. They merely know something the mortal races, they created to worship them, do not.The mortals got too powerful and arrogant and invaded the god's planes and destroying their avatar shells. the gods got mad and removed their influence from Norath and magic as we knew it ceased to work.The mortals had to develop new methods of spell casting and combat arts, channeling a power not of divine origin.The Quelithulian Erudites appear to have found a way to gather and harness this energy which I believe comes from Norath herself. There is also lore in game about how others gathered this energy to fuse it with their combat skills to develop what we have today as Combat Arts.Whether by accident or by design the Erudites gathered arcane power which caused a transformation in the Erudites. Romiak Jusathorn wrote in his findings of the Behemoth that he belives the Mana power of Norath has the ability to "bioevolve" species on norath.From this I believe that it is possible that the Mana power of Norath caused the change in Erudites and that Norath is responsible for the current existence of their race. Possibly this is the reason the Erudites evolved from the humans in the first place, making the erudites the true children of Norath.<hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#006600">Lore Sources:</font><font color="#006600"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">World Tree:</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"> (AKA Mana Tree, Tree of Life, etc...)</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">In EQ2 we are first introduced with a World Tree root in Everfrost, that immediately made me think of the Mana Tree (or Tree of Life, depending on what earthen lore, or video game you are playing) After seeing this one root I wanted to know more about the World Tree, where it was on Norath, and more lore around it. If it is like traditional lore along these lines it channels/filters the life essence of Norath. </font><font color="#006600"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Behemoth and the plane of Mana:</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">The Lore of Fauna: The Behemoth</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">By Prof. Romiak Jusathorn</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Planar Influence: Mana</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Sub Races: Unknown</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Frequency: Extinct</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Size: Titanic</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Region: Global</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Habitat: Land and Sea</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">    Long before any creature dominated Norrath, there came into existence beasts of legendary nature.  Many of these creatures came and left before the dieties spread their children across the surface of Norrath.  One of these legendary beast types is known as the Gargantile Cheldridea, or Behemoth.</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">...</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">The behemoths were placed upon Norrath by enities unknown.  I believe that their existence is a gist of nature, possibly a beast sprung from necessity.  The behemoth acted more as a force of nature then an intelligent beast of warlike destruction.  They would slumber for centuries at a time and only awaken to destroy budding ancient communities of the few ancient societies of the era.</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">...</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Mana creates out of necessity.  The vessel of mana called Norrath requires bioevolution for survival.  The behemoths acted as cleansers of exterminators to the world, mother Norrath's ultimate guardians, not the children of dieties.  The behemoths no doubt, had special innate magical resistances due to their mana nature.</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">This made them more then a match for any of the ancient races, including those of dragonkind.  I believe there to be a quasi place sprung off the plane of growth wehre many of these beasts will always lumber.  It is on this quasi plane that i shall continue my research.</font><font color="#006600"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Erudites and the Archane Transformation:</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "Ok, now this is getting interesting.  What did they discover?"</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Nashii tells you, "The Erudites had constructed a base of concentrated arcane power that was obviously the foundation and core of their plans.  Fearing another catastophic event engineered at the hands of careless Erudite meddling, the ancestors took sanctuary on Kerra Isle, abandoning their homeland to the inevitable fate of the continent."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "What was the inevitable fate?"</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Nashii tells you, "What happened shortly after the ancestors' retreat was both awesome and frightful.  Nearly a week after the retreat, on the onset of dawn, a great sound echoed from the continent like the song of a thousand great whales.  Within a few moments, the sound went still and all was suddenly quiet."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "What happened next?"</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Nashii tells you, "A cloud of mist radiated from the north, enshrouding the entirety of the continent and surrounding shores in a thick, shimmering veil of impenetrable fog.  All grew eerily quiet.  This phenomenon lasted by a few short minutes before the mists retreated."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "Oh, was the continent gone?  Is that what happened to Odus?"</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Nashii tells you, "No, Odus remained, and to the surprise of those who bore witness, it was as if nothing had ocurred.  The forests of Toxxulia remained and the snow capped-peaks of Stonebrunt could be seen upon the northern horizon.  However, all remained silent and deathly still for the days that would pass."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "Didn't you ancestors go explore?"</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Nashii tells you, "None dared to tread upon the land, believing it now cursed or fouled by the Erudites' magic.  As the first of the silent days passed, many came to accept that the Erudites had destroyed themselves and all living creatures upon the continent.  A lunar cycle would pass before our ancestors learned otherwise."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "What did the anceastors learn?  What did they see?</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">Nashii tells you, "They saw the Erudites much as we see them now.  Their altered forms frightened many, warding the ancestors from the continent for many generations to come.  What magics occurred beneath the mist are a mystery.  The Erudites will not share this tale openly with most, for we think that they too are without answers to their mysterious transformation."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">You say, "That was interesting.  Thanks for the story."</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"></font><div></div>

[CuddlingWo]

One thing I gotta point out...Mana didnt come from the gods, it came from the powers that the gods were in charge of...  druidic powers came from the powers of growth, that were in turn managed and ruled by Tunare...By taking away their direct influence, the gods did not remove the powers of their elements and such from Norrath...Water still existed without the Triumverate... things grew without Tunare... people hated without Innoruuk... etc..The powers that we draw still come from the basic powers that flow throughout Norrath..  thats why wardens can call upon the vines and have them wrap around their enemies... Magic still exists in Norrath...  it is just not directly managed by the Gods, and the Gods do not step down here and interfere with things or change things directly.  The powers of the gods are running loose bassically...Thats my take on things... could be wrong...  the Gods left, the powers they oversaw did not...Draxehn/join Lucan_Dlere.eqlore (known lore and lore-based RP discussion)/join Antonia_Bayle.eq2lore (speculation lore and lore theories)<div></div>

[TolenClearbrook]

<div><blockquote><hr>CuddlingWolf wrote:One thing I gotta point out...Mana didnt come from the gods, it came from the powers that the gods were in charge of...  druidic powers came from the powers of growth, that were in turn managed and ruled by Tunare...<div></div><hr></blockquote>My only question to that is, did the powers of growth exist on norath before Tunare brought it, or did she merely decide to influence an already existing power?My take would be that the gods merely found a way to influence the Mana that norath creates. And it is only recently that the mortals are able to directly influence/channel these powers without the help of the gods. I do not believe our 2 points of view are too different.</div>

[CuddlingWo]

Well.. according to the seeress GM event... Nameless unleashed space and time, but it was total chaos.  He organized the chaos into the greater elements and created the elemental gods to run those elements.  They in turn worked with him to create the various "powers" of existence, and the gods that would rule over them...So.. technically.. Tunare probably existed before Norrath ever had any growth.. as she was created when the power of growth itself was created.  In the same sense that there was no water until water and the triumverate was molded from the chaos.  I agree though, we are thinking along the same lines... before, people learned how to manipulate the powers of norrath through the divine assistance of the gods.  Now we are realizing that we dont need them... much like an agnostic in EQ1 could still cast.  I think what it is.. is a personal character belief..  a worshipper of a god believes his power comes from them.. but in truth, the power never came directly from the gods, but from the powers they ruled over... and perhaps the mortals are just now discovering or realizing that, whether they have been doing it all along or not.It poses an interesting question...  if we can do such things without the gods... how will we react to their return?<div></div>

[Jaale]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CuddlingWolf wrote:<BR>Well.. according to the seeress GM event... Nameless unleashed space and time, but it was total chaos.  He organized the chaos into the greater elements and created the elemental gods to run those elements.  They in turn worked with him to create the various "powers" of existence, and the gods that would rule over them...<BR><BR>So.. technically.. Tunare probably existed before Norrath ever had any growth.. as she was created when the power of growth itself was created.  In the same sense that there was no water until water and the triumverate was molded from the chaos.  <BR><BR>I agree though, we are thinking along the same lines... before, people learned how to manipulate the powers of norrath through the divine assistance of the gods.  Now we are realizing that we dont need them... much like an agnostic in EQ1 could still cast.  I think what it is.. is a personal character belief..  a worshipper of a god believes his power comes from them.. but in truth, the power never came directly from the gods, but from the powers they ruled over... and perhaps the mortals are just now discovering or realizing that, whether they have been doing it all along or not.<BR><BR>It poses an interesting question...  if we can do such things without the gods... how will we react to their return?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL I was just going to make the same point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe we are just starting to grasp the edges of what Zeb already knows in himself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Gods leaving to "regroup" may yet lead to their biggest downfall when as a population we out grow them and the need for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think that we are toe to toe with them yet (even before when we were entering their planes) but I think we are on the right path..... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is will they return to nurture us, or do what they did to Zeb and try and hold back our learning, one other mortal other than Zeb made it to God hood (though it maybe invalid in our EQ2 time line.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do the Gods want us as their children or their Equals... I think they will want us as their children and are coming back now not as much as they have regained their power to full but more as they see us ascending along a different line, I personally don't think they can risk waiting any longer to reassert there influence over us before we become to much for them to handle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: change of word for explaining perposes... the word was the correct use, but it would appear that abuse has caused it to become a cuss <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Jaale on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[CuddlingWo]

Wow.. my interpretation made sense?I seriously have been avoiding posting on these forums since I am so new to really digging into the lore, and didn't want to sound like an idiot...I have a great time running my channel, since most of the stuff we talk about is lore I know, that is well known, like Battle of Fay, and histories of the races and such, and of course the Tome of Destiny.  So I don't feel intimidated calling myself a loremaster in that sense...  but seriously, I've never wanted to post on the topics here for fear of not making any sense...Draxehn<div></div>

[Jaale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CuddlingWolf wrote:<BR>Wow.. my interpretation made sense?<BR><BR>I seriously have been avoiding posting on these forums since I am so new to really digging into the lore, and didn't want to sound like an idiot...<BR><BR>I have a great time running my channel, since most of the stuff we talk about is lore I know, that is well known, like Battle of Fay, and histories of the races and such, and of course the Tome of Destiny.  So I don't feel intimidated calling myself a loremaster in that sense...  but seriously, I've never wanted to post on the topics here for fear of not making any sense...<BR><BR>Draxehn<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hee hee Yeah it made sense, best thing I can think of in these cases is to just jump in at the deep end and post... you'll be right sometimes and drastically wrong in others, just make the best of it and learn where you can <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Back on topic an analogy to do with booze that may help..</P> <P>The Power the gods look after is like a big Wine skin (stay with me), before they were the "spigots" (the bit that you open... like a stopper*) and would drip feed us what they thought that we needed, When they left I think that we found a way to punch a hole in the wine skin (a small one currently) and are learning to feed ourselves. The problem is getting drunk on the power and doing something stupid.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>* - ok having to explain my analogy, that can't be good <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:58 PM - stupid spelling, always making me wrong!</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jaale on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 PM</span>

[Punkbr]

<div><blockquote><hr>TolenClearbrook wrote:<font color="#006600">Lore Sources:</font><font color="#006600"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">World Tree:</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600"> (AKA Mana Tree, Tree of Life, etc...)</font><font color="#006600"></font><font color="#006600">In EQ2 we are first introduced with a World Tree root in Everfrost, that immediately made me think of the Mana Tree (or Tree of Life, depending on what earthen lore, or video game you are playing) After seeing this one root I wanted to know more about the World Tree, where it was on Norath, and more lore around it. If it is like traditional lore along these lines it channels/filters the life essence of Norath. </font><font color="#006600"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#006600"></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Don't forget Yggdrasil!</div>

[Udal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TolenClearbrook wrote:<BR><BR>The mortals got too powerful and arrogant and invaded the god's planes and destroying their avatar shells. the gods got mad and removed their influence from Norath and magic as we knew it ceased to work.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>When did magic cease to work? I know magic kept working in EQ1 when they withdrew and I don't remember reading anything about magic not working in EQ2 after they withdrew either. Is this fact or an interpretation?<BR>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Udal wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TolenClearbrook wrote:<BR><BR>The mortals got too powerful and arrogant and invaded the god's planes and destroying their avatar shells. the gods got mad and removed their influence from Norath and magic as we knew it ceased to work.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>When did magic cease to work? I know magic kept working in EQ1 when they withdrew and I don't remember reading anything about magic not working in EQ2 after they withdrew either. Is this fact or an interpretation?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well it wouldn't be fair for EQlive if they changed the very mechanics of the game by preventing most classes from using spells just because some guild on the server single-handedly ticked off all the gods.</P> <P> </P> <P>In EQ2, however. The Tome of Destiny states that when the gods withdrew themselves, and shortly after, the Nexus was invaded by the forces of Ro and Zek, all mass transportation was cut off. No more wizard teleportations. No more Gating, No more druid teleports.</P>

[TolenClearbrook]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Udal wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TolenClearbrook wrote:The mortals got too powerful and arrogant and invaded the god's planes and destroying their avatar shells. the gods got mad and removed their influence from Norath and magic as we knew it ceased to work. <hr> </blockquote>When did magic cease to work? I know magic kept working in EQ1 when they withdrew and I don't remember reading anything about magic not working in EQ2 after they withdrew either. Is this fact or an interpretation? <hr> </blockquote> <p>Well it wouldn't be fair for EQlive if they changed the very mechanics of the game by preventing most classes from using spells just because some guild on the server single-handedly ticked off all the gods.</p> <p>In EQ2, however. The Tome of Destiny states that when the gods withdrew themselves, and shortly after, the Nexus was invaded by the forces of Ro and Zek, all mass transportation was cut off. No more wizard teleportations. No more Gating, No more druid teleports.</p><hr></blockquote>Yes, the key words were "magic as we knew it" the power behind all magic still existed but the way the mortals used it changed, and a lot of stuff they were used to, stopped working, especially the higher magics, such as teleportation. there is a lore giving NPC in qeynos that explains the loss of a lot of skills, and the development of Combat Arts. If someone knows exactly which one, that would be great, I'll try to find him again, i think it was in Starcrest Commune.</div>

[Rashaak]

<DIV>I think the only reason the spires were 'shut down' as it were, was a typical military style tactic only. The magical properities by the people of Norrath were still present even after the spires became innert. The gods simply enhanced their influence to make travel by the spires impossible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you can't get reinforcements to your ally's you most assuredly will loose. (best south texan voice) "Remember the Alamo!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, one military tactic is to split the forces in to two seperate smaller entities. They have no choice but to become defensive. If you can't regroup and mount an offensive it's hard to stop the momentum of the opposing forces. Which is why the Rallosian Army was able to advance so quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at Qeynos and Freeport though...both cities are well fortified and have the capability of providing the best defensive and imposing threat to any advancing force. So, take out the smaller areas around to keep from getting 'ambushed'. Which is why the advancement onto Qeynos came after Halas was burned. Demoralize the feircest of ally's with the loss of their home, it's harder for them to continue the fight with the same passion. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But also look at the Avatars that were left behind to assist. The Gods couldn't fully keep their hands away from mortal affairs. Mainly to keep a sense of balance (good vs evil), within the world. Not only that, but to be spiteful of other's as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OF course everything I said is purely speculation...but from a military standpoint that is the only reason I see for why the spires could not be used. The story just suggests that the 'magical' properities of mortal's were taken away by the gods after the invasion on the Nexus. When in actuality only the transportation spell was (for lack of a better word) 'muted'.</DIV>

[TolenClearbrook]

I think you could be spot on with the tactical reasons for the loss of spire teleportation...But the spires had no effect on binding and gating and that was lost as well. The people of Norath had to research and find new ways to develop these skills without the influence of the gods. They succseded, first with basic gate home spell, then they even developed the ability to bind. All this without the use of the spires. Now to teleport multiple people, and a distance as far away as the Kingdom of sky, the spires had to be constructed to channel enough magic. Again, this was through years of research of how to do it without the influence of the gods. Basically we learned how to channel the mana withought the gods help. In the process of developing your new character initially from being a mage and picking your subclasses, you learn that the magic of EQ2 was indeed diferent than the way mortals used magic when the gods were around. I believe the other classes also explained how they embued their skills to become the combat arts they are today.As a side note, I believe timeline wise, the nexus was destroyed just before the gods pulled their influence away. The attack on the Nexus was done by the gods themselves and their planar minions. (it has been a while since i read the tome of destiny, but i think that was how it went down)<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TolenClearbrook wrote:<BR>I think you could be spot on with the tactical reasons for the loss of spire teleportation...<BR><BR>But the spires had no effect on binding and gating and that was lost as well. The people of Norath had to research and find new ways to develop these skills without the influence of the gods. They succseded, first with basic gate home spell, then they even developed the ability to bind. All this without the use of the spires. Now to teleport multiple people, and a distance as far away as the Kingdom of sky, the spires had to be constructed to channel enough magic. Again, this was through years of research of how to do it without the influence of the gods. Basically we learned how to channel the mana withought the gods help. In the process of developing your new character initially from being a mage and picking your subclasses, you learn that the magic of EQ2 was indeed diferent than the way mortals used magic when the gods were around. I believe the other classes also explained how they embued their skills to become the combat arts they are today.<BR><BR>As a side note, I believe timeline wise, the nexus was destroyed just before the gods pulled their influence away. The attack on the Nexus was done by the gods themselves and their planar minions. (it has been a while since i read the tome of destiny, but i think that was how it went down)<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The nexus was invaded after the gods took thier leave, and it probably wasn't destroyed untill Luclin itself was destroyed. Whether Kerafyrm was or was not involved in the destruction of Luclin, I still think it was the Dresolisk Crystal that Zek and Ro's army transported into the Nexus in the first place that actually blew up the moon.</P> <P>Anyway, The Tome of Destiny's stories happen in a chronological order, and the gods agreed to silence themselves before the Nexus was invaded.</P>

[TolenClearbrook]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote>The nexus was invaded after the gods took thier leave, and it probably wasn't destroyed untill Luclin itself was destroyed. Whether Kerafyrm was or was not involved in the destruction of Luclin, I still think it was the Dresolisk Crystal that Zek and Ro's army transported into the Nexus in the first place that actually blew up the moon.</blockquote><p>Anyway, The Tome of Destiny's stories happen in a chronological order, and the gods agreed to silence themselves before the Nexus was invaded.</p><hr></blockquote>I was under the impression that they agreed to pull influence, but as a final goodbye a couple teamed up and invaded the Nexus. Sort of a Grace Period of pulling out. Or a task set before the pull out date. I never felt that as soon as they agreed to pull their influence they immediatley stopped. I saw it as a "so we are in agreement, and we'll pull out our influence by such and such date"</div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TolenClearbrook wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The nexus was invaded after the gods took thier leave, and it probably wasn't destroyed untill Luclin itself was destroyed. Whether Kerafyrm was or was not involved in the destruction of Luclin, I still think it was the Dresolisk Crystal that Zek and Ro's army transported into the Nexus in the first place that actually blew up the moon.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Anyway, The Tome of Destiny's stories happen in a chronological order, and the gods agreed to silence themselves before the Nexus was invaded.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was under the impression that they agreed to pull influence, but as a final goodbye a couple teamed up and invaded the Nexus. Sort of a Grace Period of pulling out. Or a task set before the pull out date. I never felt that as soon as they agreed to pull their influence they immediatley stopped. I saw it as a "so we are in agreement, and we'll pull out our influence by such and such date"<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe so, maybe not. I dont know. Something about the Tome of Destiny just leads me to think that the Nexus was invaded a good while after the gods finally chose thier avatars and withdrew themselves.

[CuddlingWo]

It is my opinion that the nexus was the last act of the gods, and this is why:"We agree," the god of War said at last. "When does it begin?" "In seven mortal days' time, we will act as one. Will that be long enough to do what is needed?" "It will," Solusek Ro said coldly. Tunare nodded with reluctance. What did Solusek Ro and Tunare agree that 7 days would be enough time for?  Well.. Solusek Ro sent his minions to the nexus with some artifact to disrupt the powers it used.  But what about the druid circles?  Didn't they derive their power from Tunare?  I think the plan all along, was to take away their ability to teleport across Norrath, then move the gods influence immediately after.The other evidence of this, is that immediately following that chapter, is The Awakening... in which the ogre's curse is lifted... assuming that always meant that is when the influence of the gods was gone.<div></div>

[WarShe]

<DIV>About Mana and powers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was under the impression that some time ago in EQLive the Favor system was developed which gave us a means to support our own powers (new magics) with out the Need of the gods that once gave them to us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and in the process of self supporting our selves the deities of Norrath grew angry at our neglect of them and turned their backs on us as if to show we needed them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I may be way off here but was pretty sure the gods leaving and us developing a means to make mana had some thing to do with one another.</DIV>

[Zabjade]

<font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">A version of gating still exists (CoQ, CoO, CoR, RoS, and soon to be CoK?) however only recently was binding for said teleports re-thought out. (Still doesn't wotk for CoR) </font></font></font><div></div>

[CuddlingWo]

<font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">A version of gating still exists (CoQ, CoO, CoR, RoS, and soon to be CoK?)</font></font></font>I really think we need to come up with a new acronym for the one that you say is "soon to be".  Yes, I realize that it will likely be called Call of Kelethin... but lets all agree here on the forum that it should be Call of Faydwer... and hopefully the Devs will catch it and change it before this starts...."Hey guys.. I just clicked my CoK.. hehehe... that means since I used my CoK... it will stay down for a while before it can pop up again.. he he he"Does everyone see what I am attempting to avoid here?I really hope people get this message before it is obliterated by the mods... mods... please understand, people need to have this pointed out before it is too late.  We must stop the acronym that is sure to doom us all!!!!  Please please developers... name the spell Call of Fayder!!!  Then at the very worst someone might make a "cough" pun.DraxehnCoK (Master II)<div></div>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Since its an old topic, I did the Cusa, and just skimmed most of them, to re-iterate some of the things said, yes, mana is NOT from the gods that most of us worship, and nor did all our magical knowledge stem from the gods.  While certain classes were granted powers by the following of certain deities (mostly priest-type classes), other classes obtained their power through training, and schools of thought.  These arcane sciences never required the following of a deity to weild their forces (wizards, enchanters, and magicians could all be agnostics).  This brings up chains of thought that are most likely too deep for this world, since it is simply a computer game, but, what the heck, here are a few of them:</P> <P><STRONG>There are different sources to draw ones power from.</STRONG> As was seen in everquest, classes such as druids, rangers, shamen, paladins, shadowknight, and even necromancers drew their power from divine forces.  It was their allegience to these divine personas that allowed them to control the mana around them in various ways, some, no doubt, more than others, the furthest possibly being necromancy.  The arcane classes: wizardry, enchanting, and summoning (magicians) learned to manipulate the mana pool through study, perhaps inherent talent, and much practice.  Obviously, the latter would be the least effected with the withdrawal of the gods, seeing as how their power never really stemmed from the gods in the first place (arguably, I realise that magicians did, and still do summon their minions from the various elemental planes, and that wizards preportedly have been known to tap into the elemental planes to summon particular devastating arcane powers).  The former (priests), however, would have been devestated (and this is how I play my shaman, who lived during EQ, and lived through the abandonment of the gods).  Shamen, Druids and Clerics would most likely be reduced to herbalists, perhaps with some minor healing abilities, most likely, no better than that of paladins, and shadow knights, too, would have been nothing more than glorified warriors.  Necromancers would, most likely, suffer the least, as their studies were never too far from the arcane, anyways.</P> <P>And thats what we see in EQ2, clerics, shamen, druids, and crusaders have found new places to draw their powers from.  They now draw their power from more primal, more basic sources, than the gods, and this perhaps brings them closer to the base mana (if such a thing can exist).  Shamen commune with the spirits that are inharent in every living thing, and even some things that do not live, but have force (such as an arctic wind), druids draw their power from nature, and life itself, while crusaders (and presumably clerics) have learned to tap into the power that is within each of us, being empowered by their very own wills!</P> <P> </P> <P>On the gods...</P> <P>The discussion brings up a very old quandary:  <STRONG>Do we need the gods, or do the gods need us?</STRONG>  This argument can be debated for eternity, and have no final answer.  The fact of the matter is, the gods brought forth everything you are.  Without the gods, there would be no dragons, no elves, no humans, barbarians, dwarves, gnolls, goblins, giants, aviaks, orcs, ogres, iksars, trolls, lizardmen, droag...and yet when they did create us, whether intentionally, or otherwise, we were given the ability to grow.  We were given the chance to grow in intellect, power, strength, and wisdom.  One might say that the gods that created us, created us in their own image.  Would it not be only a matter of time until we became as powerful as them, as a son can grow to match his father's strength?  <STRONG>To me</STRONG> the question isn't whether we need the gods or not, because just as a teenager can benefit from the wisdom and experience of his parents, so to can we benefit from learning all that the gods will teach us.  The real question, and one that no doubt varies from deity to deity, is that will they help us grow, or try to stop us.  We have already proven that, if given the power, we will not try to learn and grow with the gods guidance, but attempt to usurp, and overthrow them.  In doing so, the gods have shown that no matter how powerful we get, they are invincible.  All they need to do is pack up, and leave, and we are powerless to stop them from doing so.  To me, it seem that just as mortals are destined to grow infinitely more powerful, so, too, do the gods continue to grow in power, and strength, and wisdom, as their existance allows them no boundaries.  So what would it benefit to continue try and control that which we are unable to control?  <STRONG>Before we existed, there were the gods...I would venture to guess that they have no need for us, outside their own fancy and amusement.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P>