The Sleeper.

[BossCre]

<DIV>(Now...I know it's been said time and time again that Vox and Nagafen are not the parents of Kerafyrm.  I've actually seen this stuff in Skyshrine before myself...and have repeatedly told people that Vox and Nagafen are not the parents of Kerafyrm.  However...there is a tome that one can acquire and finish labeled "The Age of Destiny" in EQ2.  The account is taken from Darathar in a text (he never actually says anything of it, save for "the destruction in the sky" being Kerafyrm's doing).  But anyway...here it is.  Perhaps the story is being re-written?  Or maybe Darathar is lying in a book that one really kind of has to go out of their way to finish for some reason?  ...Look.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV align=justify> <CENTER><B>The Age of Destiny</B></CENTER> <P>This book appears to be an extremely valuable illuminated tome. Unfortunately, most of the pages have been ripped out of the book. The title of the story is "The Age of Destiny". <BR><BR>Forward: This volume is a copy of the most recent tome in the library. It is unprecedented to for the Sage of Ages to speak of an Age before it has closed, yet this volume is exactly that. We cannot yet understand what the meaning of these words are. In time they will become clear. <BR><BR>The Sage of Ages, or Sages as the case may be, has observed Norrath for time immemorial. <BR><BR>This story is a glimpse into just one of the many viewpoints of unrecorded history. <BR><BR>The Age of Destiny is upon us. The Ages have come and gone like the passing of a river. The Dragons remain watching their world as they always have done. And now they see sights that alarm them. Many Ages ago, a Law was broken. This was the most sacred of Laws there ever was. And the repercussions of this broken Law are felt to this day. <BR><BR>It is known the Vox and Nagafen had been part of the Ring and they were severed. This has been told before. It is known that they are the Exiled Ones who created a force of destruction that could barely be contained. It is known that they live within their forever prisons to suffer for what they have done. It is known that they are now free. <BR><BR>One was freed from this mortal coil. The Queen of Ice. The Frozen Wyrm. The Lady Vox. She is known by many names, but now she is known only as one - Dead. The faithful Drakota of the Truthbringer felled her within her lair. And this is good. <BR><BR>One was freed from his prison, able to walk this world with ease. The King of Fire. The Enflamed One. Nagafen. He is known by many names, but he is missing the most important - Dead. The faithful Drakota were stopped from completing their task by the use of deceptive magics. But this will not stop the Drakota entirely, for their numbers are many. <BR><BR>But even now, in the Age of Destiny, the Exiled Ones still wish to cause havok and destruction. <BR><BR>For when they broke the first Law, they had a blatant disregard for what they were doing. And now, it is seen that they have broken the Law again. The cost of the first Law being broken was the moon in the sky. Look to it and know the truth. The two of Fire and Ice brought this destruction and must be stopped. <BR><BR>Many Ages ago, the Dragons knew that the Drakota were a very important tool. A tool that could be used to keep order within the world. What they disregarded were the heroes from the lesser races. Even when they looked and saw the possibility, they still did not pay attention. But one Dragon did. The Truthbringer.)</P></DIV></DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Darathar has established time and again that he is a well known liar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And "The Truthbringer" is Darathar's own self-appointed title.</DIV>

[BossCre]

(Yeah, I know...just found it strange, is all.  *shrug*)

[Barx]

Aye, anything Darathar says or writes is highly suspect.The fact that he assumes the guise of the Sage of Ages as part of his deception essentially makes anything said by the Sage also suspect. If anything, the book is a piece of propoganda -- Darathar is saying "Look what Naggy and Vox did. Vox is dead and Naggy should be too!" In essence he wants the reader to go out and kill him, since his own plan has failed. How better to make the people of Norrath detest Naggy then to blame him for the destruction of Luclin? Darathar is just hedging his bets... if <i>he </i>can't kill Naggy, maybe he can get someone else to for him? We know he is definately <b>not</b> beyond using adventurers for his own purposes.<div></div>

[SpiceBoi]

<P>I want Naggy, Vox & Darathar plushies for my house. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Got that outta my system.</P> <P>Good read, Boss.  Silly Darathar will never learn.  When I first started EQ2 & found out that Vox was dead, for real this time, I couldn't believe it until I saw it for myself.  Upon seeing her 'ghostly' self chillin' (he he pun) in Permafrost I had to know what was up with Naggy.  I was FAR too low level to be sneaking into Sol Eye, but what a thrill it was.  Lord Nagafen has suffered enough at the loss of his true love.  Darathar needs to lay off & leave him to brood in his lair.  If he should begin to stir up major trouble we 'lesser beings' are here to keep him in check.    </P>

[Zh]

Most definitely interesting although yes, blatant propeganda as well. The True Sage of Ages would be indifferent to events, telling them strictly historically while here after it states Vox's death says "this is good" and I haven't done too much of KoS so what's this linking of the Drakota to Mithaniel Marr they're doing? (The Truthbringer). At the bottom it says that one *Dragon* realized the use of the drakota and calls that dragon The Truthbringer, though that's the nickname of MM.<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>The Truthbringer is Mithanial Marr's sword, if memory serves. Anyway, it's just his own self-proclaimed title because he thinks he's right and never wrong.</DIV>

[Zh]

Ah, I checked the diety listings and it lists Mithaniel Marr - The Truthbringer, just as it lists Cazic-Thule - The Faceless and such. But yeah not suprised he'd be like that.<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>I understand that Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen are not Kerafyrm's parents.  That is very clear.  I also understand why Vox and Nagafen were sent into exile and by whom.</P> <P>However, there are persistent hints that Lady Vox did, in fact, produce an egg, (possibly more than one), and that there was a failed attempt to smuggle it to Nagafen.  I seem to recall though that there are still rumors that perhaps another egg succeeded in reaching Solusek's Eye.</P> <P>And that, if successful, a new Prismatic Dragon would have rivaled or exceeded Kerafyrm's power.</P> <P>What are the facts and rumors around this?</P>

[WarShe]

<DIV>Im not sure what relevance this is but I know for sure at one time there deffinatly was another dragon in Sol, Thats where Ragefire originaly appeared if I remember but he wasnt prismatic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know for sure but in my mind I always thought of him as Naggy's brother but its been a while and ive forgotten the history of him. My warrior had a full set of his dropped armor Blazzing armor of Fennin Ro.</DIV>

[Sarago]

<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div></div> <div>Im not sure what relevance this is but I know for sure at one time there deffinatly was another dragon in Sol, Thats where Ragefire originaly appeared if I remember but he wasnt prismatic.</div> <div> </div> <div>I dont know for sure but in my mind I always thought of him as Naggy's brother but its been a while and ive forgotten the history of him. My warrior had a full set of his dropped armor Blazzing armor of Fennin Ro.</div><hr></blockquote>Ragefire appeared in a few different locations throughout EQ1.. But yes he was in Sol as well. I'm not sure of his relation to naggy if any.</div>

[WarShe]

<P>An interesting old thread from EQlive argued that the Sleeper stood a slim chance against Veeshan, of course its all speculation and there is no absolute answer but shows how powerfull Sleeper is/could be. <A href="http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Lore&message.id=404&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Lore&message.id=404&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Well, factoring in Game Mechanics as one way to verify his power, it took about 3 hours 20 minutes for Wudan, Magus Imperialus Magus, and Ascending Dawn to Kill the sleeper on Rallos Zek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... Ahh good times. I remember watching it all happen with my very eyes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I've said time and again that you shouldn't count the game mechanics to verify a monster's strength from a lore point of view, but when it came to Kerafyrm in EQlive, I think it was justified. He had billions of HP, hit for 7400, had a deathtouch proc with his melee attacks, and the only way they could kill him was to zerg him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They killed him for the sake of proving that he was indeed a killable mob.</DIV>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WarSheol wrote:<BR> <P>An interesting old thread from EQlive argued that the Sleeper stood a slim chance against Veeshan, of course its all speculation and there is no absolute answer but shows how powerfull Sleeper is/could be. <A href="http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Lore&message.id=404&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Lore&message.id=404&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:17:11 2001] You say, 'Hail, Melalafen'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:17:11 2001] Melalafen says 'We are aware of your presence, fleshling. <BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:22:01 2001] You say, 'who are you ?'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:22:02 2001] Melalafen says 'We are those who have been in hiding. We are those who have been in waiting. We are those who await the return of our Master. <BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:24:26 2001] You say, 'who is your master ?'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:24:26 2001] Melalafen says 'Our Master? Surely all know of our Master now. It was he who was sleeping. It is he who is now freed. We give him honor, loyalty, and our lives. Jaled'Dar, first of our order, set in motion the events that freed our Master. <FONT color=#0000ff>But the Master has departed quickly, perhaps to challenge the Mother herself, such is his power</FONT>. We wish to aid our Master, but we fear he is not aware that we exist, for his last memory of Wyrmkind was one of treachery and defeat. We believe we know where he has gone, but we do not know how to reach him. <BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:32:16 2001] You say, 'where has he gone ?'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:32:16 2001] Melalafen says 'We believe that he is in a far distant plane, beyond the powers of even the mightiest dragon to reach. He goes places only Veeshan herself was able to visit. <FONT color=#0000ff>We believe he searches for our long departed Mother, to challenge her for rule of the very heavens</FONT>. If only we had some means of reaching him, we would give him all our aid! We doubt your pitiful mammal brain is capable of devising a plan where we have failed, but we will listen to your chatter, such is our desperation</P> <P> </P>

[IrishWonder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mary the Prophetess wrote: <P>However, there are persistent hints that Lady Vox did, in fact, produce an egg, (possibly more than one), and that there was a failed attempt to smuggle it to Nagafen.  I seem to recall though that there are still rumors that perhaps another egg succeeded in reaching Solusek's Eye.</P> <P>And that, if successful, a new Prismatic Dragon would have rivaled or exceeded Kerafyrm's power.</P> <P>What are the facts and rumors around this?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, it's true. After the Rending or Shattering, both Nagafen and Vox were able to break free of their prisons and produce a number of prismatic eggs. These eggs are currently under the watch of Nagafen. The prismatic 1.0 revolves around you trying to get one of these eggs, which was stolen by Darather, back to Nagafen. In the end, you accidentally shatter the egg in the fight with Darathar. Upon giving this news to Nagafen, he tells you it's no problem because he is actually in posession of a whole horde of eggs from his courtship with Vox... he only wanted to make sure that the egg was not in the posession of Darathar.</P> <P>Also, during Deathtoll access, Nagafen makes another reference to his prismatic eggs. I can't remember the exact text... I'm at work and don't have it... but when he's talking about the Droags uniting under his leadership now that the generals of the Awakened Cult are dead, he says something along the lines of "Hey, as soon as my eggs hatch, I'll be the leader of my own prismatic army... ph33r the Naggy!"</P> <P>In any case, expect this to be a recurring plot in EQ2's future... and most likely a huge deal at some point.</P>

[Sarago]

<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div></div> <p>An interesting old thread from EQlive argued that the Sleeper stood a slim chance against Veeshan, of course its all speculation and there is no absolute answer but shows how powerfull Sleeper is/could be. <a href="http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Lore&message.id=404&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target="_blank">http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Lore&message.id=404&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</a></p><hr></blockquote>I've debated this point as well.. Seems a lot of people believe the sleeper could beat Veeshan.. I just don't see how it's possible to destroy a dragon the size (if not bigger) then the planet in which the supposed attacker resides on. </div>

[WarShe]

<DIV>Just want to say I wouldnt base a winner by their size, its a matter of power. I have seen some thing as small as an arrow kill a giant which is much bigger than it is :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Jaale]

<P>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</P> <P>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</P> <P>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </P> <P>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</P> <P>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</P> <P>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</P> <P>Just some food for thought.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:15 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jaale on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:18 PM</span>

[Saragoth]

<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div>Just want to say I wouldnt base a winner by their size, its a matter of power. I have seen some thing as small as an arrow kill a giant which is much bigger than it is :smileyhappy:</div><hr></blockquote>Ok not to mention that Veeshan is a god... and your incorperating in game mechanics into lore which is a huge no no.. Veeshan Huge with Godly powers... The Sleeper = Normal dragon sized with tremendous mortal dragon powers.. </div>

[Saragoth]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jaale wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</p> <p>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</p> <p>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </p> <p>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</p> <p>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</p> <p>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</p> <p>Just some food for thought.</p> <p>Message Edited by Jaale on <span class="date_text">06-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:15 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Jaale on <span class="date_text">06-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:18 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Your forgetting something... Veeshan is a god and thus doesn't age.. </div>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saragoth wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaale wrote:<BR> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</P> <P>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</P> <P>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </P> <P>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</P> <P>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</P> <P>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</P> <P>Just some food for thought.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:15 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:18 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your forgetting something... Veeshan is a god and thus doesn't age.. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All dragons themselves are immortal too.

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaale wrote:<BR> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</P> <P>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</P> <P>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </P> <P>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</P> <P>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</P> <P>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</P> <P>Just some food for thought.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:15 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have never heard of a dragons age effecting his/her power. </P> <P>I doubt Kerafyrm can take a god on, but the dragons do say he has the power to so we can't know for sure.</P> <P>What rule are you talking about? the rule about dragons of opposing elements should never mate or they may end up getting a prismatic dragon?  This rule was made by Kildrukaun when he was eventually chosen as the new Arch Priest of Veeshan, the first rule he made was to never let two dragons of opposing elements mate with each other or it would have dire consequences, he believed it was against Veeshans will and that it would lead to dire consequences, they never said what the mating of two opposing dragons would lead to but it will be bad.<BR></P> <P>Veeshan is a crystalline dragon not a prismatic.</P> <P> </P>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saragoth wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaale wrote:<BR> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</P> <P>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</P> <P>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </P> <P>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</P> <P>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</P> <P>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</P> <P>Just some food for thought.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:15 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:18 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your forgetting something... Veeshan is a god and thus doesn't age.. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>She is also nearly unkillable, if Kerafyrm, by some amazing means, killed Veeshan, she could just come back shortly thereafter just as strong, and do that as many times as nessicary until kerafyrm weakened her enough for her to fade out of existance.</P> <P>Plus there is the size issue, Veeshan is literally as big as Norrath. Kerafyrm would be squashed like an ant.</P>

[Jaale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaale wrote:<BR> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</P> <P>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</P> <P>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </P> <P>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</P> <P>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</P> <P>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</P> <P>Just some food for thought.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:15 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have never heard of a dragons age effecting his/her power. </P> <P>I doubt Kerafyrm can take a god on, but the dragons do say he has the power to so we can't know for sure.</P> <P>What rule are you talking about? The rule about dragons of opposing elements should never mate or they may end up getting a prismatic dragon?  This rule was made by Kildrukaun when he was eventually chosen as the new Arch Priest of Veeshan, the first rule he made was to never let two dragons of opposing elements mate with each other or it would have dire consequences, he believed it was against Veeshans will and that it would lead to dire consequences, they never said what the mating of two opposing dragons would lead to but it will be bad.<BR></P> <P>Veeshan is a crystalline dragon not a prismatic.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>General Rule of Thumb with Dragons that Age denotes power, granted it is mostly in other dragon lore not sure if it has been applied in EQ2 Dragon lore but I assume so as Naggy is much more powerful after 500 years than he was in EQ1 and most if not all the dragons are more powerful than they were.. (Again Naggy is sitting on a hord of Prismatic eggs from Vox so that maybe suplimenting his power.)<BR></P> <P>Ah I didn't know that Veeshan is a crystalline dragon, do we know how this comes about? (2 prismatic's for example?)</P> <P>Ok it would appear that i need to brush up on my lore for dragons in EQ2 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That said why did Kildrukaun make the rule unless it had happened in the past? (I assume that this rule was made before Kerafyrm) so one must have known about that to make such a strong rule, otherwise you could say it about any type of dragon mating, this rule must have originated somewhere. (did Veeshan pass it down and if so why?)</P> <P>As to Kerafyrm taking out Veeshan I don't believe that, unless there is a way that he can increase his power greatly, he is a different/lower(?) class of dragon after all. I prefer to believe that he is heading to Veeshan to bring to her attention what is going on in her world, as he is supposed to be awake now and heading where only Veeshan has been able to go before (outer space I'm guessing) she has been long absent.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for the info guys any more is always good <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaale wrote:<BR> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a dragon gain more power the older they are?</P> <P>If that is the case, a new dragon (comparatively) wouldn't stand a chance against a dragon the age of Veeshan?</P> <P>Also what makes people think that this is the first time that this has happened? I would assume that the rule is there for a reason... and for the rule to happen some one must have tried it out to see the results already? </P> <P>That would mean that either the first try was put down, or that Veeshan is an ancient prismatic herself after beating the original Dragon God, but that still revolves back to age bringing strength/wisdom in dragons and Kerafyrm being much younger and therefore not as powerful.....</P> <P>It could also follow that after a time the older Veeshan could be on the decline power wise just ripe for a take over from Kerafyrm, that would lead to every so often the old dragon god would be replaced by a newer version of a Prismatic from an earlier seeded planet, in which case there maybe a planet already out there that has been seeded by Kerafyrm.</P> <P>The Law could be there knowing that it will be broken but it will not happen that often, stopping the skys from being filled with Prismatics from hundreds of planets causeing a rumpus like never seen before, something that maybe even the Nameless would have to step in to stop. (Maybe he already has once and created the Law himself.)</P> <P>Just some food for thought.</P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:15 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Jaale on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have never heard of a dragons age effecting his/her power. </P> <P>I doubt Kerafyrm can take a god on, but the dragons do say he has the power to so we can't know for sure.</P> <P>What rule are you talking about? The rule about dragons of opposing elements should never mate or they may end up getting a prismatic dragon?  This rule was made by Kildrukaun when he was eventually chosen as the new Arch Priest of Veeshan, the first rule he made was to never let two dragons of opposing elements mate with each other or it would have dire consequences, he believed it was against Veeshans will and that it would lead to dire consequences, they never said what the mating of two opposing dragons would lead to but it will be bad.<BR></P> <P>Veeshan is a crystalline dragon not a prismatic.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>General Rule of Thumb with Dragons that Age denotes power, granted it is mostly in other dragon lore not sure if it has been applied in EQ2 Dragon lore but I assume so as Naggy is much more powerful after 500 years than he was in EQ1 and most if not all the dragons are more powerful than they were.. (Again Naggy is sitting on a hord of Prismatic eggs from Vox so that maybe suplimenting his power.)<BR></P> <P>Ah I didn't know that Veeshan is a crystalline dragon, do we know how this comes about? (2 prismatic's for example?)</P> <P>Ok it would appear that i need to brush up on my lore for dragons in EQ2 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That said why did Kildrukaun make the rule unless it had happened in the past? (I assume that this rule was made before Kerafyrm) so one must have known about that to make such a strong rule, otherwise you could say it about any type of dragon mating, this rule must have originated somewhere. (did Veeshan pass it down and if so why?)</P> <P>As to Kerafyrm taking out Veeshan I don't believe that, unless there is a way that he can increase his power greatly, he is a different/lower(?) class of dragon after all. I prefer to believe that he is heading to Veeshan to bring to her attention what is going on in her world, as he is supposed to be awake now and heading where only Veeshan has been able to go before (outer space I'm guessing) she has been long absent.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for the info guys any more is always good <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>[Tue Sep 11 19:17:11 2001] You say, 'Hail, Melalafen'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:17:11 2001] Melalafen says 'We are aware of your presence, fleshling. <BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:22:01 2001] You say, 'who are you ?'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:22:02 2001] Melalafen says 'We are those who have been in hiding. We are those who have been in waiting. We are those who await the return of our Master. <BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:24:26 2001] You say, 'who is your master ?'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:24:26 2001] Melalafen says 'Our Master? Surely all know of our Master now. It was he who was sleeping. It is he who is now freed. We give him honor, loyalty, and our lives. Jaled'Dar, first of our order, set in motion the events that freed our Master. <FONT color=#0000ff>But the Master has departed quickly, perhaps to challenge the Mother herself, such is his power</FONT>. We wish to aid our Master, but we fear he is not aware that we exist, for his last memory of Wyrmkind was one of treachery and defeat. We believe we know where he has gone, but we do not know how to reach him. <BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:32:16 2001] You say, 'where has he gone ?'<BR>[Tue Sep 11 19:32:16 2001] Melalafen says 'We believe that he is in a far distant plane, beyond the powers of even the mightiest dragon to reach. He goes places only Veeshan herself was able to visit. <FONT color=#ffffff>We believe he searches for our long departed Mother, to challenge her for rule of the very heavens</FONT>. If only we had some means of reaching him, we would give him all our aid! We doubt your pitiful mammal brain is capable of devising a plan where we have failed, but we will listen to your chatter, such is our desperation</P> <P>Theres my little chat with Mel back in EQlive before me and my guild awakened the sleeper on mithaniel marr. Proving just how strong Kerafyrm is. It does seem unlikely that Kerafyrm can defeat her but i bet he can probably fight her for a bit. Veeshan seems much more powerful than Kerafyrm, she marked a whole planet with just one swipe of her massive claws.<BR></P> <P>I can't say i know why Kildrukaun made the decree but im guessing its because he was the Arch Priest of Veeshan and he probably had some connection with her and knew what she wanted and what she didn't want, he was after all chosen through a divine rite. All Veeshan did was mark norrath, gave life to a gray planet and depositted the first dragons on Norrath and left, none of the dragons ever saw her but knew she existed and what she did. The samething can be said about Veeshan, how do the dragons know she even exists? how do they know she marked a lifeless planet and she was the one responsible for there existance, they just do, just as Kildrkuan knew that there will be consequences with the mating of two dragons of opposing elements. Kildrukaun assumed many things, he said that a prismatic would never come to exist but when one did eventually hatch he changed his beliefs and believed that Kerafyrm was born to fulfill a purpose, he assumed this purpose would be to unite the Ring of Scale and Claws of Veeshan which Kerafyrm has done in a way since the Awakened are dragons from both the Ring of Scale and Claws of Veeshan who previously weren't united and are now united under Kerafyrm.</P> <P>Kerafyrm is  different from other dragons but that doesn't mean his breed is a lower class, they are just dangerous and feared. I suppose Kerafyrm is going to her to get her attention as you said, but like Melalafen said, his last memory of dragonkind is that of treachery and defeat. </P> <P>Another thing to also note is that, it seems Jaled Dar and Melalafem are the founders of the Awakened but thats off topic.</P>

[WarShe]

<DIV>Veeshan, marks the planet with claw marks supposedly, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we know it was Veeshan that did this? Who claims it was Veeshan and not just any Crystalline dragon from space?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we know Veeshan is really a god?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quoting some thing over looked for a while</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"it is rumored amongst the most intellegent races of Norrath that first came the dragons. The great Crystalline dragon, ruler over the plane of sky deposited life onto a lifeless planet, and with one swipe of her mighty claws laid claim to the promise of a new world."</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1, it is Rumored, this is as good as guessing how your world was made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2, Deposited life, this could have simply been laid eggs on or dropped a friend off here. it is Not clear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3, No where does it indicat the dragons name just that it is a her. Do you know how many crystalline dragons can fly in space that are female? Because I sure dont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4, No mention that magic was used in any way shape or form, or that it was done by a god, simply says "ruler over the plane of sky".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So many things have been told for so long they are simply accepted as truth and fact, and many of these things we think we know for sure are based off of Rumors as is this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention if Veeshan isnt as powerfull as she would like us to beleive would she say? No of coourse not. And as I saw mentioned if she really is missing an eye and a claw think it was, this is a big deal, you all try running around with one eye let alone fly through space and see how many things you run into heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and finaly Dragons age = Wisdom from all ive heard in norrath any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The direct quote I have above I wrote word for word from the starting original movie for EQLive from 1999.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WarSheol wrote:<BR> <DIV>Veeshan, marks the planet with claw marks supposedly, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we know it was Veeshan that did this? Who claims it was Veeshan and not just any Crystalline dragon from space?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we know Veeshan is really a god?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quoting some thing over looked for a while</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"it is rumored amongst the most intellegent races of Norrath that first came the dragons. The great Crystalline dragon, ruler over the plane of sky deposited life onto a lifeless planet, and with one swipe of her mighty claws laid claim to the promise of a new world."</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1, it is Rumored, this is as good as guessing how your world was made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2, Deposited life, this could have simply been laid eggs on or dropped a friend off here. it is Not clear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3, No where does it indicat the dragons name just that it is a her. Do you know how many crystalline dragons can fly in space that are female? Because I sure dont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4, No mention that magic was used in any way shape or form, or that it was done by a god, simply says "ruler over the plane of sky".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So many things have been told for so long they are simply accepted as truth and fact, and many of these things we think we know for sure are based off of Rumors as is this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention if Veeshan isnt as powerfull as she would like us to beleive would she say? No of coourse not. And as I saw mentioned if she really is missing an eye and a claw think it was, this is a big deal, you all try running around with one eye let alone fly through space and see how many things you run into heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and finaly Dragons age = Wisdom from all ive heard in norrath any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The direct quote I have above I wrote word for word from the starting original movie for EQLive from 1999.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Don't question the opening movie from Everquest. If it says she's a god, then She's a god. If it says she created the Great Divide with her foretalon and created two huge ravines in the Western Wastes with her two back claws, then she did. If it says that she made Norrath inhabatable in the first place, and the dragons were the first creatures to live on Norrath, then she did, and they were.

[WarShe]

<P>"Don't question the opening movie from Everquest. If it says she's a god, then She's a god. If it says she created the Great Divide with her foretalon and created two huge ravines in the Western Wastes with her two back claws, then she did. If it says that she made Norrath inhabatable in the first place, and the dragons were the first creatures to live on Norrath, then she did, and they were. "</P> <P>I pointed out that it does say Rumored and does not say god Anywhere. It does not even say Veeshan at all in the actual movie. You didnt read my post at all did you? lol :smileyhappy:</P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>A good poster never reads. They skim. It draws out the argument better if you don't read all the points. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Woot! 5000.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:13 PM</span>

[Dynn The Mo]

I don't see why you're doubting official lore. Veeshan is definately a god, and is the only 'great crystalline dragon' the last time I checked.<div></div>

[Jait]

<DIV>Well, the guy who kinda started this all (Kendrick) once posted on the Safehouse that the Sleeper was quite possibly the Avatar of the Nameless.  Either way I would not consider Veeshan a God at all.  She has no place on the Pantheon which was released in Planes of Power (the poster included).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>She's the Mother of Dragonkind, and most likely predates all Gods.  Also if I remember correctly the Gods came to Norrath *because* Veeshan had clawed it, and Brell wanted to contend for the rule of the "Foundation" aka Norrath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone can point to official lore about this stuff it'd be greatly appreciated, but there's very, very little talk about who/what Veeshan really is.  Other than a big freaking crystalline dragon who is the Mother of all Dragons.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jait on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:53 PM</span>

[WarShe]

<DIV>Being Official lore and being actual fact are two completely different things. No one has any clue where this crystalline dragon came from or how many there really are, if you have any proof other than just a "Rumor" id love to see it though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in no way flat out saying Veeshan isnt a god, thats not the point at all to my last few posts, its the details of where the actual in game info came from.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"it was rumored amongst the intellegent races"  Yes maybe it was rumored But we dont even know which races or in which age they rumored this exactly. At the time it could have been a race of moss snakes or some thing even less intellegent.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being official lore doesnt mean historical fact is the point as we all know many NPCs and players flat out lie/make stuff up/dont know/are crazy/are insane ect ect ect. If you choose to blindly accept it all as fact go for it, but not me.  :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dynn The Mo]

<div>"Well, the guy who kinda started this all (Kendrick) once posted on the Safehouse that the Sleeper was quite possibly the Avatar of the Nameless.  Either way I would not consider Veeshan a God at all.  She has no place on the Pantheon which was released in Planes of Power (the poster included).</div> <div> </div> <div>She's the Mother of Dragonkind, and most likely predates all Gods.  Also if I remember correctly the Gods came to Norrath *because* Veeshan had clawed it, and Brell wanted to contend for the rule of the "Foundation" aka Norrath.</div> <div> </div> <div>If anyone can point to official lore about this stuff it'd be greatly appreciated, but there's very, very little talk about who/what Veeshan really is.  Other than a big freaking crystalline dragon who is the Mother of all Dragons."How is Veeshan not a god? She is ruler of the plane of sky. The first god was The Nameless, who then created the elemental gods Solusek Ro, the Triumvirate of Water, and Xegony. These three then made the rest of the gods. The gods came to Norrath because they didn't want the balance of power to be disturbed, so they created their own races to keep Veeshan in check. With the same logic, Bristlebane is just a huge halfling, he has no rightful place on the Pantheon, the filthy pie lover!</div><div></div>

[Dynn The Mo]

<div>"Being Official lore and being actual fact are two completely different things. No one has any clue where this crystalline dragon came from or how many there really are, if you have any proof other than just a "Rumor" id love to see it though.</div> <div> </div> <div>I am in no way flat out saying Veeshan isnt a god, thats not the point at all to my last few posts, its the details of where the actual in game info came from.</div> <div> </div> <div>"it was rumored amongst the intellegent races"  Yes maybe it was rumored But we dont even know which races or in which age they rumored this exactly. At the time it could have been a race of moss snakes or some thing even less intellegent.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Being official lore doesnt mean historical fact is the point as we all know many NPCs and players flat out lie/make stuff up/dont know/are crazy/are insane ect ect ect. If you choose to blindly accept it all as fact go for it, but not me.  <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16">"I'm not blindly accepting anything, I accept the truth and doubt anything that isn't that. You're just flat out ignoring it.</div><div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jait wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, the guy who kinda started this all (Kendrick) once posted on the Safehouse that the Sleeper was quite possibly the Avatar of the Nameless.  Either way I would not consider Veeshan a God at all.  She has no place on the Pantheon which was released in Planes of Power (the poster included).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>She's the Mother of Dragonkind, and most likely predates all Gods.  Also if I remember correctly the Gods came to Norrath *because* Veeshan had clawed it, and Brell wanted to contend for the rule of the "Foundation" aka Norrath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone can point to official lore about this stuff it'd be greatly appreciated, but there's very, very little talk about who/what Veeshan really is.  Other than a big freaking crystalline dragon who is the Mother of all Dragons.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jait on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:53 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>First off, the Pantheon existed LONG BEFORE Planes of Power came out. On the EQlive website you could find a pantheon of gods way back before even Kunark came out.</P> <P>2nd: Veeshan is the God of Sky. The clouds, the horizon, the beautiful sunsets, the stars.... None of that would exist without her directly influencing it since it's her domain.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vhalen once commented on how the gods of influence are split up into two catagories: Emotion, and Nature.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gods of Emotion are those that represent Love, Fear, Hate, Greed, Valor, Justice, Mischief, Peace, War, Strategy, Tactics, Strife, Vengeance, Pain, Dreams, Nightmares, Sarrow, Insanity, Lust, Death, Rebirth, Health, Music, Apathy and other emotional and mental perceptions of the mind.</P> <P>Gods of Nature are those that represent the physical elements of Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Sky, Disease, Underground, Oceans, Storms, Growth, the Sun, Ice, Vapor, Shadows, Magic, and other interactive tangable elements that compose the world and universe that exists.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Veeshan is a god of Nature, the God of Sky.</P>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The confusion arises because of all the different 'flavors' of lore.</P> <P>At the bottom is 'unofficial' lore.  This is lore from sources other than the two on-line games.  Some of it may be valid, but it has not recieved an official seal of approval (as it were)</P> <P>Then is an amorphous category that I refer to as 'quasi-official' lore.  This is unofficial lore which is alluded to in official sources, but not actually affirmed, or elaborated upon. (such as Fayspires or Tethelin).  It's status is in limbo, somewhere between official and unofficial.  It is 'lore-in-waiting'</P> <P>Finally there is 'official' lore from the two online games, and their designers.</P> <P>However, offical lore also comes in shades of difference.  </P> <P>There is the lore set out by the designers themselves through conversations, forums, and things such as introductory movies.  But there is also official lore that is presented to we players through NPCs, or documents written by NPCs within the game.  This NPC presented, (official), lore may be somewhat contradictory or even false due to the 'spin' or agenda of the NPC telling the tale, and needs to be viewed in that light.</P> <P>Veeshan's existence, and place in the pantheon, is official lore.  It is also the first category of official lore; that is, not from stories told by NPCs (at least not totally).</P> <P>No, I cannot reference you to a link, or a specific designer or conversation, but I feel confident that the evidence is there for anyone that needs convincing to the degree that they are willing to search for it.</P> <P>Veeshan is a god.  Her domain is the Plane of Sky.  Even Kerafyrm, (or another even more powerful Prismatic, if such a thing ever came about), would be less powerful than Veeshan herself.</P> <P>As to physical size, gods can manifest themselves in any number of forms.  If Veeshan chose to appear as a Dragonfly, or a planet-sized Crystalline Dragon, I sure she could do so. </P>

[Jaale]

<P>Just to throw something else into the mix of the creation......<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The Lore of Fauna: The Behemoth <BR>By Prof. Romiak Jusathorn<BR><BR>Planar Influence: Mana<BR>Sub Races: Unknown<BR>Frequency: Extinct<BR>Size: Titanic<BR>Region: Global<BR>Habitat: Land and Sea<BR><BR>    Long before any creature dominated Norrath, there came into existence beasts of legendary nature.  Many of these creatures came and left before the dieties spread their children across the surface of Norrath.  One of these legendary beast types is known as the Gargantile Cheldridea, or Behemoth.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So that implies that Veeshan was not the first to inhabit the planet but merly populated one that was just starting out.. (would be like Veeshan getting here during our dinosaur age) That said it could be the scribles of a crazy old man <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Hmmm, very interesting observation.</P> <P>By the way the genus, 'chelydridae' include the family of giant alligator snapping turtles, and (presumably), their prehistoric ancestors.</P> <P>A relative of Lodizal perhaps?</P> <P>I don't suppose the Behemoth might be laying on it's back.</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG height=340 alt="Turtle Skeleton" src="http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t025/T025232A.jpg" width=597 border=0></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>06-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 AM</span>

[Jaale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mary the Prophetess wrote:<BR> <P>Hmmm, very interesting observation.</P> <P>By the way the genus, 'chelydridae' include the family of giant alligator snapping turtles, and (presumably), their prehistoric ancestors.</P> <P>A relative of Lodizal perhaps?</P> <P>I don't suppose the Behemoth might be laying on it's back.</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG height=340 alt="Turtle Skeleton" src="http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t025/T025232A.jpg" width=597 border=0></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very interesting but the parts of the Behemoth that we can see (in Nek forest) are ribs... something pic above is missing...</P> <P>That would lead me to believe that it is of more or the Alligator genus, however the pool is a very large one and I don't think that we can define it that closely. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I think that we will soon come to a clash that is going on at the moment in the real world and that is science Vs God, the difference being that in EQ2 it is much simpler as we know that the gods exsist, the part that interests me is, did Veeshan really create life on a lifeless planet or did she just lay eggs on a planet that already holds life? and were the Behemoth created to fight the Dragon invader to protect the life on the planet or were they already there all along?</P><p>Message Edited by Jaale on <span class=date_text>06-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 AM</span>

[Straylig]

Is that a cross section of Chel'Drak?

[Lakland]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WarSheol wrote:<BR> <DIV>Veeshan, marks the planet with claw marks supposedly, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><EM>How do we know it was Veeshan that did this?</EM> </FONT>Who claims it was Veeshan and not just any Crystalline dragon from space?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not too sure, since I am just getting into all the EQlive/EQII Lore, but wasn't Brell witness to this? This was the event that started Brell in motion to bring his own creations to the planet. If I recall Brell wondered why Veeshan should be able to do this and not other Gods?

[Jaale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR>Is that a cross section of Chel'Drak?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hee hee no I think that is just a normal tortoise! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WarSheol wrote:<BR> <DIV>Veeshan, marks the planet with claw marks supposedly, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><EM>How do we know it was Veeshan that did this?</EM> </FONT>Who claims it was Veeshan and not just any Crystalline dragon from space?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not too sure, since I am just getting into all the EQlive/EQII Lore, but wasn't Brell witness to this? This was the event that started Brell in motion to bring his own creations to the planet. If I recall Brell wondered why Veeshan should be able to do this and not other Gods? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think that you are right About Brell in this, though how the info got from brell to the rest of the world is still suspect..</P> <P>Also something else I've been thinking about... who created Veeshan? as everything I've read I've not seen one mention of the Nameless creating her... all it say's is about the kingdom of sky is this:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> And finally the fourth was named Xegony and she received the task of drawing away the material in-between and setting each thing in its place. <BR><BR>She used her portion of chaos to make it into Air, which she used to blow the chaos away and cushion each world from the harshness of the cold cosmos. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Saying that she basicly created the sky. so where is Veeshan in all this creation and why is she considered the one in charge of the realm of sky? (I know that Xegony is a bit of a recluse)</P> <P>more info about the creation here: <A href="http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read.php?link=ages_creation" target=_blank>http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read.php?link=ages_creation</A></P> <P>Just wondering if a dev was willing to jump in on this? (I say waving a chocolate bar and an air of hopefulness! )</P>

[WarShe]

<P>Wow a lot of replies last jight, any way</P> <P>The one thing that sticks out the most about the Behemoth is the guy who wrote it clearly states its his "Theory". So I wouldnt believe any thing more than the obvious facts like it probably had 4 legs and a head and such. I myself picture a Comodo dragon when thinking about these in RL. Just bigger.</P> <P>As for Brell, Official EQ1 lore any way take it for what its worth heh.</P><I><FONT size=5> <P>Early Gods and Their Interventions — The Elder Age</P></FONT></I><FONT face=Arial size=2> <P>In time, another god noticed Veeshan’s work. Brell Serilis, the Duke</P> <P>of Underfoot, secretly created a magic portal to a cavern deep in the</P> <P>belly of Norrath. Through this portal, he seeded the depths of</P> <P>Norrath with all manner of creatures and sealed them within a</P> <P>labyrinthine chamber of mystical Living Stone.</P> <P>With his own supplicants in place, Brell Serilis then discussed the fate</P> <P>of Norrath with the other gods: Tunare the Great Mother, Prexus the</P> <P>Oceanlord, and Rallos Zek the Warlord. With words befitting the</P> <P>King of Thieves, Brell proposed that they accept an alliance of sorts,</P> <P>to divide the planet amongst them for the purpose of keeping the</P> <P>Dragon Wurmqueen in check. All agreed to the division; however,</P> <P>Rallos Zek pledged his allegiance to none.</P> <P>Thus, the gods each created a race of beings to keep a vigilant eye on</P> <P>Norrath and the schemes of Dragonkind. Brell Serilis had forged the</P> <P>Dwarves, stout and strong, deep beneath the mountains. Prexus the</P> <P>Oceanlord produced his children, the Kedge, hearty aquatic beings of</P> <P>great mental power and stamina. Aboveground, Tunare the Great</P> <P>Mother gave birth to the Elves, creatures of limitless grace and beauty.</P> <P>And Rallos Zek created the Giants, a race of fierce and formidable</P> <P>surface-dwellers, ever intent upon the defense of their lands.</P></FONT>

[WarShe]

<P>Back to the Sleeper and Veeshan, the more I think about it the more I am sure Sleeper could win, heck at this point im thinking even Pikachu has a chance.</P> <P>Plane of sky aka air plane, wouldnt that be an elemental?</P> <P>No one has even seen Veeshan in her own plane, wait a minute what god would make their own Plane of influance to small for them selves to even fit into? I have been there its hard enough for a little dark elf to keep from falling out of that place, I cant imagine trying to squeeze a whale into a gold fish bowl.</P> <P>Veeshan is widely accepted as I god excuse me, Goddess but at this point I really wonder why considering how unactive she has been. im sure by now the dragons are wanting a god they can see once in a while and hear commandments from.</P>

[Dynn The Mo]

The Plane of Sky and the Plane of Air are two different planes.Veeshan rules the Plane of Sky, and Xegony rules the Plane of Air.As said before, the gods can manifest themselves as whatever they want, what we see is only what they decide to manifest into. So she could be any size, big or small, and the planes are extremely big (infinite, possibly?). She just chooses not to manifest in her plane, most likely roaming the universe in search of another world.Veeshan isn't the only god that has been inactive on Norrath. Infact, she created the wurms on Norrath, while some gods have never participated in Norrathian matters. Infact, the greater elemental gods have never even created races, as well as many other gods.<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dynn The Monk wrote:<BR>The Plane of Sky and the Plane of Air are two different planes.<BR>Veeshan rules the Plane of Sky, and Xegony rules the Plane of Air.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Common misconception about the Plane of Sky and Plane of Air being one and the same.</P> <P> </P> <P>In EQlive, when the Plane of Sky was released, if you searched for a player with the /who function, it would list "airplane" as the zone they were in if they were in the Plane of Sky.</P> <P>It would list hateplane and fearplane if they were in the Plane of Hate or Fear as well.</P> <P>When Planes of Power came out, it started listing the planes more appropriately.</P> <P>pojustice, powater, poair, pofire, potranquility, podisease, poinnovation, etc etc.</P><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>06-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:41 PM</span>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>My guess, would be that Veeshan was created sometime in this area, perhaps by Xegony *shrugs* But I have no real clue.  This is taken from the a GM event in original EQ where Seeress told of the Creation of Norrath, this is the last part.</P> <P><EM>The Nameless then looked into its new creation and felt sorrow because it could not experience it, for the creation could not contain the Nameless and so it decided to find a way to explore this new existence.<BR><BR>So the Nameless called out to the Gods of Power and commanded them to make minions that it could share in their experience of this new world.<BR><BR>Each of the Gods of Power reached into their elemental planes and drew forth a portion that they shaped with their will into what would be eyes and hands for The Nameless and themselves.<BR><BR>They created beings of energy, much like themselves, but beings of will born of the matter of the cosmos.<BR><BR>The Gods of Power knew that balance must be maintained in the universe to keep its shape.<BR><BR>Therefore they started to create the Gods of Influence in the model of a scale, on one side a force of darkness or destruction, on the other side a force of light or creation and ...in the middle, a neutral or balancing force to maintain the balance without the involvement of the Gods of Power.<BR><BR>And so they combined their elements to create each God in turn, good, neutral and evil, which the children of Norrath may choose to follow until the end of times.</EM></P> <P> </P> <P>The entire story, including how the Nameless created the elemental gods, and the universe as it is, can be read <A href="http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read.php?link=ages_creation" target=_blank>here</A>.  This story was released back in EQ when the GMs and other game designers played a very intereactive role in the game, controlling characters like Mayong Mistmoore, and popping up to give people cookies and drink as a big red troll names Santa Claws around Christmas time.  Ah, the good ol' days...</P> <P>In any case, Veeshan is a god because the devs have said she is a god, and Veeshan came to Norrath and deposited dragonkind here because the devs (and game manuals, and almost every official Everquest website that bothers to mention the deities) say that it happened.  This <STRONG>isn't</STRONG> real life, where if something happened in the past, we can only attempt to use circumstantial evidence and easily doctored testimony to judge if something did or did not happen (Ceasar's Gaulic Wars is a good example of easily tampered history).  In Everquest, we can <STRONG>know</STRONG> that certain events happened when a dev said they happened, because the devs are the ones who <STRONG>make</STRONG> things happen or not happen.  Therefore, we can say with confidance that Veeshan is a god, she was the first god to come and create a race on Norrath, the dragons, and that she created and presided over the Plane of Sky (which has since began to leak into Norrath).  We know that not all of the Plane of Sky has ever been accessable to Norrathians, through the conversation of the Hoo'Luk near the spire in Tenebrous Tangle who <STRONG>tells</STRONG> us that the Plane of Sky is made up of innumurable islands, and that the ones we have access to in the KoS expansion, and the ones that were accessible in EQ only made up a small fraction of the actual plane.</P> <P>For people like Cusa who don't like to read entire posts and just skim, here are the important parts of my post:</P> <P> <FONT color=#ff0033>This <STRONG>isn't</STRONG> real life, where if something happened in the past, we can only attempt to use circumstantial evidence and easily doctored testimony to judge if something did or did not happen (Ceasar's Gaulic Wars is a good example of easily tampered history).  In Everquest, we can <STRONG>know</STRONG> that certain events happened when a dev said they happened, because the devs are the ones who <STRONG>make</STRONG> things happen or not happen.</FONT></P> <P>Though all of it is important <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WarSheol wrote:<BR> <DIV>Veeshan, marks the planet with claw marks supposedly, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we know it was Veeshan that did this? Who claims it was Veeshan and not just any Crystalline dragon from space?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we know Veeshan is really a god?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quoting some thing over looked for a while</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"it is rumored amongst the most intellegent races of Norrath that first came the dragons. The great Crystalline dragon, ruler over the plane of sky deposited life onto a lifeless planet, and with one swipe of her mighty claws laid claim to the promise of a new world."</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The direct quote I have above I wrote word for word from the starting original movie for EQLive from 1999.</DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>Here is a direct quote from the description of Veeshan that was originally on the EQ website under deities in the Library section, but has since been removed.</P> <P><STRONG>Veeshan is the great crystalline dragon who rules the Plane of Sky.<BR></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>She needs no allies but considers Brell Serilis an enemy.<BR></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Veeshan is known as the Mother of All Wurms and this title includes all of dragonkind such as the drakes and wyverns.<BR><BR>When the universe was young, Veeshan traveled throughout the cosmos depositing Her children on worlds She deemed worthy.<BR><BR>She would then strike the planet with Her massive claws so that the other deities would know She had laid claim to that world.<BR><BR>The continent of Velious on Norrath bears Her mark, known as the Scars of Veeshan.</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE>There you have it, no rumors, no guesses, flat out facts from the game developers themselves.<BR>

[Dynn The Mo]

To Nocturnal, who said that Veeshan was most likely created by Xegony, from your own quote, it says that the gods used their powers to create the rest of the gods together. So Veeshan is a combination of the greater elemental gods' powers, like the rest of the pantheon.<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dynn The Monk wrote:<BR>To Nocturnal, who said that Veeshan was most likely created by Xegony, from your own quote, it says that the gods used their powers to create the rest of the gods together. So Veeshan is a combination of the greater elemental gods' powers, like the rest of the pantheon.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There are some theories floating around out there, neither confirmed by or denied by officials, pointing out a... "Family Tree" of sorts. Which gods were created by which elemental god. It draws out like this:</P> <P>Most of them are easy to figure out, as that god's influence is closely tied to that element.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fennin Ro created Solusek Ro, Rallos Zek, Cazic Thule, and Innoruuk.</P> <P>The Triumvirate of Water created Erollisi and Mithanial Marr, Prexus, Karana, and Rodcet Nife.</P> <P>Xegony on the other hand, is responsible for creating The Tribunal, Veeshan, Quellious, and Luclin.</P> <P>The Rathe created Bertoxxulous, Tunare, Brell Serilis, and Bristlebane.</P> <P> </P> <P>Then from those gods came even more gods.</P> <P> </P> <P>Solusek Ro created Druzzil Ro, who then created Ayonae Ro. (Wow. A Demi-god of a Demi-God, who actually proved to be more powerful than the elemental gods themselves. If that isn't a divine form of inbreeding, then I don't know what is.)</P> <P>Cazic Thule created Morrel Thule, Terris Thule, and Vazaelle Kaleine.</P> <P>Innoruuk created Saryrn</P> <P>Rallos Zek created Tallon Zek, Vallon Zek, Rolfron Zek, Sullon Zek, and Derris Zek. (they're all one big happy warmongering family of hillbillies.)</P> <P> </P> <P>You might notice how Fennin Ro only created evil gods, but if you think about it, Fear, Hate, and War would be created by the burning anger of fire.</P> <P>Erollisi Marr created Tholuxe Paells, God of Lust.</P> <P>Bristlebane is kinda up for debate. What does mischief have to do with earth, water, fire, or air?</P> <P>Bristlebane created Torvillonus, God of Greed and Money.</P> <P>The Tribunal created the 7th Hammer, who is a demi-god who's real purpose is to just serve as the baliff to The Tribunal...</P> <P>Zebuxoruuk is too mysterious to classify, but seeing as he is human, you can say that he was indirectly created by Erollisi and Mithanial Marr, because they created Barbarians, and Humans evolved from Barbarians.</P> <P>I know there's a few final gods and spirits out there that I haven't mentioned, but I really don't care this late at night. :p</P><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 AM</span>

[IrishWonder]

<DIV>Yeah, arguing about whether or not Veeshan is a God is like arguing about whether or not Dark Elves are blue... there's just too much fact for an argument :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you play a game rich in lore such as EQ2, there are certain things that are laid out as facts in order to shape future events</DIV> <DIV>Fact: Veeshan is a God</DIV> <DIV>Fact: Veeshan deposited her dragons onto Norrath</DIV> <DIV>There are also things in the game that aren't clearly defined, and in some cases, such as in EQ2, this is intentional. The devs want us to form our own hypotheses about these unclear events in order to make the world unique and diverse. However, to keep things in order, we can't argue about the facts. Those have to stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that this argument has never been brought up before (to my knowledge) should serve as a testiment to the fact that, yes, Veeshan is indeed a God. Now, I certainly won't say that in the future the devs won't drop a bomb and release information in an expansion that completely changes our view of things. That's not beyond the realm of possibility. However, everything in EQ1 and EQ2 up to this point has told us that Veeshan is a God, and she was first on Norrath... the devs have told us, and want us to believe, that this is true... so for now, these are the facts that we must accept and follow before we begin to make our own conclusions to events that are not fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, on an off note, I seriously doubt Kerafyrm could take on Veeshan. In her main form, Veeshan was nearly as big as Norrath. From space, you wouldn't even be able to see Kerafyrm on the surface. He'd probably barely be visible to Veeshan's naked eye. At some point, size does begin to matter :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Sarago]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jait wrote:<div></div> <div>Well, the guy who kinda started this all (Kendrick) once posted on the Safehouse that the Sleeper was quite possibly the Avatar of the Nameless.  Either way I would not consider Veeshan a God at all.  She has no place on the Pantheon which was released in Planes of Power (the poster included).</div> <div> </div> <div>She's the Mother of Dragonkind, and most likely predates all Gods.  Also if I remember correctly the Gods came to Norrath *because* Veeshan had clawed it, and Brell wanted to contend for the rule of the "Foundation" aka Norrath.</div> <div> </div> <div>If anyone can point to official lore about this stuff it'd be greatly appreciated, but there's very, very little talk about who/what Veeshan really is.  Other than a big freaking crystalline dragon who is the Mother of all Dragons.</div><p>Message Edited by Jait on <span class="date_text">06-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:53 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Not to be rude, but what you consider Veeshan to be is irrelevent. Lore says Veeshan is a god.. Period. Veeshan rules over the plane of sky.. Which predates the PoP expansion. Really nothing you say can change the official lore sorry. </div>

[Sarago]

<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div></div> <p>Back to the Sleeper and Veeshan, the more I think about it the more I am sure Sleeper could win, heck at this point im thinking even Pikachu has a chance.</p> <p>Plane of sky aka air plane, wouldnt that be an elemental?</p> <p>No one has even seen Veeshan in her own plane, wait a minute what god would make their own Plane of influance to small for them selves to even fit into? I have been there its hard enough for a little dark elf to keep from falling out of that place, I cant imagine trying to squeeze a whale into a gold fish bowl.</p> <p>Veeshan is widely accepted as I god excuse me, Goddess but at this point I really wonder why considering how unactive she has been. im sure by now the dragons are wanting a god they can see once in a while and hear commandments from.</p><hr></blockquote>*sigh* THe planes are a representation only.. The other "gods" you kill in the planes aren't "the real" gods. Veeshan marked the planet and moved on to bigger and better things. </div>

[WarShe]

<P>"these are the facts that we must accept and follow before we begin to make our own conclusions to events that are not fact."</P> <P>Fact it clearly states it is Rumored (Veeshan movie), Fact it says in the guys own writting its his Theory(Behemoth book). Fact, Rumors and Theorys are not facts.</P> <P>"*sigh* THe planes are a representation only.. The other "gods""</P> <P>Try telling that to my Teir Dal agnostic warrior who Knows he killed Cazic and several other false idols Muhaha.</P>

[Dynn The Mo]

The planes are where the gods manifest themselves in certain forms. We only see some of their power, that is why they never fully die, if you read the planar progression, after the gods are defeated, they seek sanctuary in the Plane of Time in order to regain their power.WarSheol, it is definate fact that Veeshan is a god, enough of these false theories.<div></div>

[Dynn The Mo]

Cusashorn, missed your post at first, but here is my response. When I read that the greater elemental gods created the rest, I saw it as, fire could not create anything except fire, like F = F. But if you combine another god into that mix, just at different amounts, you get the gods.<div></div>

[WarShe]

<P> </P> <P>My theories? well I cant take all the credit I borrowed some from Prof. Romiak Jusathorn and who ever the the most intellegent races of Norrath are as there words have inspired me so greatly to umm ahh any way. Yeah I heard a rumor about this guy who rides a sled pulled by reindeer in the winter time through the sky. </P><p>Message Edited by WarSheol on <span class=date_text>06-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[Dynn The Mo]

Ok, but it's common knowledge that Veeshan is indeed a god, so you don't have to believe it anymore.<div></div>

[WarShe]

<P>I really dont understand what point your trying to make Dynn. I dont often quote myself but "Veeshan is widely accepted as I god". </P> <P>As any other curious being of course the common questions as to why is it so will always come up especialy in special cases in which no one has ever seen the deity as most the other gods have been seen.</P>

[WarShe]

<P>And yet a whole different train of thought and yes another "what if" type deal.</P> <P>What if the Sleeper becomes a deity as it seems (speculation) he is headed down the road to becoming a god, what then of his powers and will that effect any one who doubts he could beat Veeshans mind?</P> <P>Also</P> <P>With some/unknown deities returning soon "if" Brell is one of them, What is to keep him from saying you know what its time I got revenge on Veeshan for umm finding stuff before me yeah. He could "arguably" give the Sleeper godhood to use him as an ally.</P>