Teir'Dal Vs. Drow

[Nocturnal Aby]

<DIV>Recently had a discussion with a friend, and since I know it can be a hot topic.  One of my pet peeves are people who essentially incorporate Drow stuff into EQ2.   I've heard arguments from both sides, such as this is Everquest, not (wherever Drow come from).  And on the flip side, Teir'Dal are like the Drow in almost every way, the only reason Everquest doesn't use Drow is for copyright and idea rights, so they just re-labelled them Teir'Dal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please don't just state your biased belief, but breifly state your opinion, supported by hard fact, i.e., no Drow suck, and Teir'Dal suxxors, that's why!!  If any devs would like to comment, it's of course, always welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but "Drow" has always been a common synonym for Dark Elves. It didn't start just from those Dragonlance stories. Way before that.</DIV>

[Melchiah]

All of this goes back to fantasy worlds sharing similar aspects, and it's a lot older than D&D and the like. The problem with mixing worlds (bringing Drow stuff into EQ or the like) is that it introduces contradictions based on the fact that Verant put a lot of thought into making the Teir'Dal unique from their counterparts in other fantasy worlds, and you basically would have to disregard what's been done before in order to do so.That said, they are very different from their D&D representations, considering their alliance with trolls and ogres (even to the point of allowing the former to move in with them, which would be unheard of with the Drow), and their somewhat moderate temperament, as opposed to the Drow's pure xenophobia.

[Pyrrhon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div> <div>From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but "Drow" has always been a common synonym for Dark Elves. It didn't start just from those Dragonlance stories. Way before that.</div><hr></blockquote>Interestingly, though completely irrelevant to Norrathian lore, the Dark Elves in the Dragonlance world (Krynn) were the most markedly unique incarnation of any fantasy story I've encountered heretofore -- in that they were not dark in a literal sense, but rather only figuratively. They were those (completely ordinary looking) elves who were, for political or ideological reasons, "cast out of the light" of elven society.Again, I know it is irrelevant, please do not whip me with your razor tongue, Cusa, I was merely indulging my inner pedant <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pyrrhonic wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but "Drow" has always been a common synonym for Dark Elves. It didn't start just from those Dragonlance stories. Way before that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Interestingly, though completely irrelevant to Norrathian lore, the Dark Elves in the Dragonlance world (Krynn) were the most markedly unique incarnation of any fantasy story I've encountered heretofore -- in that they were not dark in a literal sense, but rather only figuratively. They were those (completely ordinary looking) elves who were, for political or ideological reasons, "cast out of the light" of elven society.<BR><BR>Again, I know it is irrelevant, please do not whip me with your razor tongue, Cusa, I was merely indulging my inner pedant <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What would I know? I never read those stories, nor do I have much interest to do so.

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The Dark Elf is an archetype.  It is the evil, corrupted counter-part to the good, enlightened Elf.  Beyond sharing the general archetype, the Drow of D&D are not related to the Teir 'Dal of this fantasy milieu, any more than the Noldar of Tolkien are related to the Koada 'Dal.  There are similarities to be sure; but trying to equate them too closely will break apart on many levels.</P>

[Jindrack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pyrrhonic wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but "Drow" has always been a common synonym for Dark Elves. It didn't start just from those Dragonlance stories. Way before that.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Interestingly, though completely irrelevant to Norrathian lore, the Dark Elves in the Dragonlance world (Krynn) were the most markedly unique incarnation of any fantasy story I've encountered heretofore -- in that they were not dark in a literal sense, but rather only figuratively. They were those (completely ordinary looking) elves who were, for political or ideological reasons, "cast out of the light" of elven society.<BR><BR>Again, I know it is irrelevant, please do not whip me with your razor tongue, Cusa, I was merely indulging my inner pedant <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think Dalamar the Dark is a great character in Dragonlance.  Cast out of elven society for pursuing the Black Robes of sorcery.<BR>

[TheGeneral]

I think that to put it in its simplist terms, people bring drow'esque ideas and such into EQ and EQ2 simply because its something they enjoy.  There are in fact a lot of similarities, but the same is so across any world, story, genre that has evil dark skinned elves.  One could just as easily apply the Kagonesti, Qualinesti, Silvanesti, Dimernesti, and Dargonesti elves of Ansalon to some of the other elf races in EQ as well.  We could do it with the dwarves too if there were actually more than one race of dwarf in EQ2.  Its really up to the individuals imagination and what makes them enjoy the game. 

[scl]

For those that say the term is older than D&D you are correct, but in a gaming sense the race was first mentioned in D&D in the 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual under "Elf" and made their first statistical appearance in the D&D module - G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King in 1978.However, the actual word comes from the Gaelic word "trow", which was pronounced "dtrow". Whilst the word comes from Gaelic (Ireland, Scotland and Wales' ancient language) the race (Dark Elf) seems to stem from the Dökkálfar (Dark elves) or Svartálfar (Black elves) of Norse mythology.The Dictionary tells us that the word Drow means - "A tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magical metal work." but since it was first used by D&D in games to describe what we know as Dark Elves (black skin, white hair, etc) it's a commonly accepted term for gamers to mean Dark Elves.

[NightrunnerX]

I may be completely wrong here, but from everything that I have read I thought that the Drow were originally used in book form for the Forgotten Realms, not Dragonlance. Further I thought that R.A. Salvatore created the race. However it could be that he just created the character Dritzz Do'Urden. Whatever the case, it should be noted that this author has used the race throughout his Forgotten Realms novels and has created some of the most intriguing characters to date. Although this is of course just my own humble opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong in some of my facts.

[CuddlingWo]

I have shared this opinion with many in my lore channel (lucan_dlere.eqlore), and this is what we have come up with.Fan lore is great.. it adds to the game.. if you want to go with fan lore.. or even lore from another source (Such as Tolkien, or D&D) then go ahead and do so...  HOWEVER...Adding to the lore with details that are directed towards your character or your guild is one thing.. such as a teir'dal house having traditions that fit menzoberranzen drow society.. such as being matriarchial, seeing males as inferior.  Where you cross the line, is when you apply this fan lore.. to ALL DARK ELVES.  Walking around saying that every dark elf believes what you believe, is forcing the fan lore on other players.. and you will probably get ignored for it.Also.. there is a big difference between fan lore that adds to the lore.. and fan lore that contradicts the lore.  To say that all teir'dal are united and neriak was a city of peace and harmony where all the dark elves worked together for all of time... is just plain wrong.  We are conducting a massive storyline on Lucan Dlere about the dark elves uniting (ill be making a post on the Lucan servers board soon regarding this)... but it is a lore accurate storyline because at the start of it... the dark elves are not united... which is how the lore portrays them right now.  So.. dont force fan lore on others.. make it something that is your characters personal traits and beliefs, nothing more.. and dont RP fan lore that openly contradicts the lore.. without expecting to get some wierd looks from the majority of RPers.Draxehn Telunodir<div></div>

[Ktok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>CuddlingWolf wrote:<BR></P> <P>So.. dont force fan lore on others.. make it something that is your characters personal traits and beliefs, nothing more.. and dont RP fan lore that openly contradicts the lore.. without expecting to get some wierd looks from the majority of RPers.<BR><BR>Draxehn Telunodir<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well said... and thank god there are people who see it that way. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[phoenixshard]

<div><blockquote><hr>NightrunnerX wrote:<div></div>I may be completely wrong here, but from everything that I have read I thought that the Drow were originally used in book form for the Forgotten Realms, not Dragonlance. Further I thought that R.A. Salvatore created the race. However it could be that he just created the character Dritzz Do'Urden. Whatever the case, it should be noted that this author has used the race throughout his Forgotten Realms novels and has created some of the most intriguing characters to date. Although this is of course just my own humble opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong in some of my facts.<hr></blockquote>It was used way before the Forgotten Realms were introduced into mainstream D&D.  As someone above stated, they were first introduced into D&D with an earlier module that was set in the World of Greyhawk.  I would agree with you though that the Dark Elf books and the Daughter of the Drow books did indeed put out some very engrossing characters.Someone else also mentioned that the Tier'Dal live with the trolls and ogres.  There home is Longshadow Alley, not Big Bend, so I don't see where that came from for comparison, the Dark Elf mentor (can't think of her name) also goes on a long tirade about how the Tier'Dal are vastly superior to all the other races, so that xenophobic ideal is also present, which does set them more towards the Drow as well.  There are some minor differences between the two, such as it appearing that both sexes are equal and not the femailes being the dominant sex, but the basic hallmarks are still there with the superior attitude, love of intrigue, and roundabout way of upholding the ideal of the race first publicly, but advancing yourself first privately is most definitely there.They are still my favorite race to play though. <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[Ranger1017]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> phoenixshard wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NightrunnerX wrote:<BR> I may be completely wrong here, but from everything that I have read I thought that the Drow were originally used in book form for the Forgotten Realms, not Dragonlance. Further I thought that R.A. Salvatore created the race. However it could be that he just created the character Dritzz Do'Urden. Whatever the case, it should be noted that this author has used the race throughout his Forgotten Realms novels and has created some of the most intriguing characters to date. Although this is of course just my own humble opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong in some of my facts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It was used way before the Forgotten Realms were introduced into mainstream D&D.  As someone above stated, they were first introduced into D&D with an earlier module that was set in the World of Greyhawk.  I would agree with you though that the Dark Elf books and the Daughter of the Drow books did indeed put out some very engrossing characters.<BR><BR>Someone else also mentioned that the Tier'Dal live with the trolls and ogres.  There home is Longshadow Alley, not Big Bend, so I don't see where that came from for comparison, the Dark Elf mentor (can't think of her name) also goes on a long tirade about how the Tier'Dal are vastly superior to all the other races, so that xenophobic ideal is also present, which does set them more towards the Drow as well.  There are some minor differences between the two, such as it appearing that both sexes are equal and not the femailes being the dominant sex, but the basic hallmarks are still there with the superior attitude, love of intrigue, and roundabout way of upholding the ideal of the race first publicly, but advancing yourself first privately is most definitely there.<BR><BR>They are still my favorite race to play though. <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have always seen Drow as being a very specific race of Dark Elves, not so much as a common term to mean Dark Elves as a concept. The Drow have a very specific society that is most fleshed out in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. R.A. Salvatore made Drizzt Do'Urden famous, and his books were the first seriously in-depth look at the workings of Drow society. </P> <P>The comment about Dark Elves living with Trolls and Ogres comes mainly from EQLive, where Trolls, Ogres, and some Humans were actually allowed to live in Neriak's foreign quarter. The Drow had outsiders in their cities as well, but those were almost always slaves, and any who weren't were very rare merchants who were not necessarily permanent residents. </P> <P>As far as Drow in EQ, as was said above, there are definitely some very strong similarities between the two. The Tier'Dal lore in the original Everquest was, all things considered, pretty thin and not very detailed. This was because of a continuing policy that only very rarely was lore definitively stated, rather the game developers kept lore deliberately vague. That was the main reason, as I understand it, that roleplayers began plugging in Drow lore to fill in the gaps, since for the most part it fit pretty well. </P> <P>A subsection of this argument is the use of Drow language to represent Tier'Dal speech. Most players who use this will speak mainly English, substituting words here and there in Drow. I actually like this, I regard it as a dark elf speaking Common with a distinct accent, using ocasional words in their native language either out of habit or because they are not certain of the exact translation. (Which, despite what some say, is extremely common practice for people who are not speaking their native language) Others speak entirely in Drow, and roleplay that they refuse to speak any other language, though I haven't seen that as much here in EQ2. This practice does offend some people, who see it as exclusionary.</P> <P>In my opinion, again as stated above, the problem begins, like most other problems, when someone decides that their way is "right" and that anyone who does differently should be forced to change. Flexibility is key, and if you are a hard core dark elf roleplayer who only speaks in Drow in game, that's fine right up until you start demanding that other Tier'Dal players must also speak in Drow. The opposite holds true.. if you disagree with the use of Drow, that's fine, but once you start belittling others who do use Drow, you are wrong.</P>

[Ishya]

there are Tier'Dal , Koada'Dal and Fier'Dal in Everquestnever saw anything else mentioned<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The three baranches of the Elves that you listed are the official lore family of Elves for EQLive and EQ2.  There are, however, several related types of Elves which exist either unoffically, or quasi officially:</P> <P>There are the Sand Elves in the ruins of Takish 'Hiz, (I've forgotten their lore name--Cusashorn could probably tell you), from EQLive.</P> <P>There are the Ayr 'Dal (Half Elves).</P> <P>There are the Elddar Elves (I think there is some lore somewhere that speaks of Mayong Mistmoore as being an 'Elddar Elf).  The Elves before the schism of Elves.</P> <P>There is also mention on the Shenba 'Dal Elves in the Loping Plains (from the EQ table-top RPG).</P>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div> <p>The three baranches of the Elves that you listed are the official lore family of Elves for EQLive and EQ2.  There are, however, several related types of Elves which exist either unoffically, or quasi officially:</p> <p>There are the Sand Elves in the ruins of Takish 'Hiz, (I've forgotten their lore name--Cusashorn could probably tell you), from EQLive.</p> <p>There are the Ayr 'Dal (Half Elves).</p> <p>There are the Elddar Elves (I think there is some lore somewhere that speaks of Mayong Mistmoore as being an 'Elddar Elf).  The Elves before the schism of Elves.</p> <p>There is also mention on the Shenba 'Dal Elves in the Loping Plains (from the EQ table-top RPG).</p><hr></blockquote>'Dal is the suffix meaning, roughly, elf.  The Living Tombs and Silent City are former elvish cities looooong buried, I think related to the EQ1 LDoN places?  My memory is spotty on EQ1 stuff now.  Suda'dal might have been one of the names used there, in LDoN I mean.  </div>

[Bucksno]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> phoenixshard wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Someone else also mentioned that the Tier'Dal live with the trolls and ogres.  There home is Longshadow Alley, not Big Bend, so I don't see where that came from for comparison, ...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In the distant past (i.e. the world of EQ1) the trolls had to go to Neriak and live with the Tier'Dal after the froglocks took over the trolls' home city of Grobb. But even prior to that trolls and ogres were common sights in the Foreign Quarter of Neriak (the only quarter they were permitted in).

[phoenixshard]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bucksnort wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> phoenixshard wrote: <div>Someone else also mentioned that the Tier'Dal live with the trolls and ogres.  There home is Longshadow Alley, not Big Bend, so I don't see where that came from for comparison, ...</div> <hr> </blockquote>In the distant past (i.e. the world of EQ1) the trolls had to go to Neriak and live with the Tier'Dal after the froglocks took over the trolls' home city of Grobb. But even prior to that trolls and ogres were common sights in the Foreign Quarter of Neriak (the only quarter they were permitted in).<hr></blockquote>OK, I'm new to the entire EQ, with EQ2 being my first game into it, so I thought it was going on the EQ2 lore since from what I've gathered in game is that with the shattering of the world, the Teir'Dal home city was destroyed.  My bad. <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[Melchiah]

This is also why in Fallen Gate, you see Ogre zombies and ghosts, and Troll ghosts.

[Pahya]

<DIV>I struggle with this sometimes, I've really gotten into playing a few teir'dal alts lately and really love their history and character. I've avoided the classic images of drow and their characteristics because I don't play a drow, I play a teir'dal. I haven't had much to do with drow previous so it's not hard for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where I've had trouble deciding is with the language. I do use Qenya (Tolkien's elvish) on my koada'dal at times especially in names *coughs and points to her sig* , and basically just pretent I'm speaking koada'dal. I love the immersion of having a seperate language but since SOE has not provided us with proper ones I make do. There's such conflict over using Drow in your speech for a teir'dal though that I haven't done it for fear of apearing to play a drow. If and when I do use it I don't think that I'm speaking drow, but that I'm speaking thexian. If SOE would give us languages, or if a group of players would create a well crafted version I would happily learn the proper <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rashaak]

<DIV>To the OP, simple fact is -- Drow are not Tier'dal, and Tier'dal are not Drow. There are simularities, in the basis of attitude, style, grace, presence, and popularity. But they are not the same...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However! The Drow without a doubt were the influence to the creation of Tier-dal, but the incorporation of the 'drow' language into Tier'dal society was utilized as emphasis for role-play purposes only. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, the simple fact is...Everquest was deeply influenced by fantasies such as Tolkien and D&D. Plus M.U.D. based games such as Sojourn, it created a visual stimulate for those who were/are fans of the Drow. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact when I first started to play Everquest, 6 years ago, I saw the Verant/SoE version of the Dark Elf and said to a buddy of mine..."Oh kewl, Drow!". Of course I was corrected when he said their Tier'dal. There are much like the Drow in apperance, but this isn't D&D so their Teir'dal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like one poster said...there wasn't much if any background lore of the races as there is in EQ2, so alot of what is now called "Fan Lore" became customary and adopted by many...hence the Vendui and Aluve from the drow language. Even though according to the lore of EQ2 it would be an inaccurate representation of the Tier'dal. The fact is, there is no REAL language other than common in EQ. Sure we have it to where we can speak Tier'dal to where other's do not understand us, but no known language other than common speak. There-for to create a uniqueness, the Drow language was adopted as the language of Tier'dal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways...went to Wikipedia.org and looked up Drow here's the jist of the Drow origin...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Drow</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>While the drow were designed by Gary Gygax for the Dungeons & Dragons Greyhawk campaign setting, they may be found in many other published and any Dungeon Master-created setting.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>The creation of the fictional drow was likely influenced by the drow of Scottish mythology, "a tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magick metal work." Drow are also likely influenced by the fictional dero of Amazing Stories, an evil 'degenerate' subterrannean race who also enslaved humans and turned them into living sculptures. Gary Gygax was a fan of science fiction and fantasy pulp of the 1940s, especially from authors of L. Sprague de Camp (Astounding Science Fiction) and Robert E. Howard (Weird Tales). The derro (introduced into the game by Gygax in the Monster Manual II) is also an evil "degenerate" subterranean race who enslave humans. The svartalfar (modern: Svartalver, English: dark elves) of Norse mythology and The Lord of the Rings were added to the mix. So, the drow are most likely to be a fictional fusion of all these influences.</EM></DIV> <DIV><BR><U>Tier'dal</U></DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing was found in Wikipedia in regards to Tier'dal, other than what was found for information relating to Everquest and Everquest 2. But here is the information from Everquest main site, and description of the Tier'dal. As you see, they are refered to as Dark Elf...not Tier'dal...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Dark elves are one of the three known ancient elf races, one of the oldest on Norrath. They are known by the elf word, Teir'Dal, a word meaning "elf of the abyss." They have existed for ages in the dark underworlds of Norrath, and are the children of Innoruuk. Legend has it that the Prince of Hate captured the first elven king and queen and tortured them over the span of 300 years, tearing them apart and rebuilding them in his own twisted image. Whatever their true origins may be, there is no doubt that the dark elves have embraced Hate as a guiding force in their lives. Hate, when disciplined, can make one strong and focused. When inspired in others, it can be a means to corrupt and control them. The practice of necromancy, which the Teir'Dal see as Innoruuk's gift to their race, is very much at the core of their culture. </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Dark elves look down upon all other races, but in the past have made use of trolls and ogres as evil pawns. While ogres have regained their former intellect and are no longer prone to Teir'Dal manipulation, dark elves continue to look for ways to manipulate anyone they can.</EM></DIV> <DIV><BR>So...you see, there is NO simularity other than what you see visually...</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><EM>To Draxehn...</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>""So.. dont force fan lore on others.. make it something that is your characters personal traits and beliefs, nothing more.. and dont RP fan lore that openly contradicts the lore.. without expecting to get some wierd looks from the majority of RPers.""</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>On the flip side of this, those who promote 'official' EQ2 lore do not have the right to force their hand and belittle those that do not wish to recognize the official lore as the only lore that should be followed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One could actually argue that due to the fact that Tier'dal translates to "Elf of the Abyss" in common, that the true creator was none other than the Nameless, and incorporate lore around that Diety. It is within EVERYONE's right as a roleplayer and part of this community to roleplay as they wish, as long it is not in violation of guidlines and rules set forth by the EULA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The lore that is provided in EQ2 is for content, background, and familiarity with that particular race, land, object, or person to create immersion. It is not a doctrine or set of law's that all within the community MUST recognize simply because it is considered official. To impindge on a person's right to originality or to differentiate from other's and what the background truly reads, is not only disrespectful but ignorant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basic point...do not tell another their lore is wrong simply because it does not follow 'officially' trademarked lore of Everquest 2. Everyone is entitled to their freedom of expression and should not put any baring on their ability or inability to roleplay. </DIV> <DIV>Basic point 2...It shouldn't matter how one decide's to preceive their character or how they utilized Non-Everquest related information when referencing their character. It's your own personal view (pet peeve), that their references are incorrect, and shouldn't be utilized, but that is all it is and their should be no debate.</DIV> <DIV><BR><<<<<Although not the intent of his post, he waits patiently for the bashing to begin>>>>>></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, for those interested...here is more info on the origin's of the Drow as discussed so far in this thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Influences<BR>While the drow were designed by Gary Gygax for the Dungeons & Dragons Greyhawk campaign setting, they may be found in many other published and any Dungeon Master-created setting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The creation of the fictional drow was likely influenced by the drow of Scottish mythology, "a tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magick metal work." (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (1970)). Drow are also likely influenced by the fictional dero of Amazing Stories (1940s), an evil 'degenerate' subterrannean race who also enslaved humans and turned them into living sculptures. Gary Gygax was a fan of science fiction and fantasy pulp of the 1940s, especially from authors of L. Sprague de Camp (Astounding Science Fiction) and Robert E. Howard (Weird Tales). The derro (introduced into the game by Gygax in the Monster Manual II) is also an evil "degenerate" subterranean race who enslave humans. The svartalfar (modern: Svartalver, English: dark elves) of Norse mythology and The Lord of the Rings were added to the mix. So, the drow are most likely to be a fictional fusion of all these influences.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Drow in Greyhawk<BR>In the world of Greyhawk, the drow were driven underground by their surface-dwelling relatives because of ideological differences. There they eventually adapted to their surroundings, especially by attracting the attention of the goddess Lolth, Queen of Spiders. The center of drow civilization is the subterreanean city Erelhei-Cinlu, and its surrounding Vault, commonly called the Vault of the Drow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Known drow of Greyhawk include Clannair Blackshadow, Derken Gale, Jawal Severnain, and Landis Bree of Greyhawk City; Eclavdra of House Eilserv; and Edralve of the Slave Lords.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some drow, especially of the House of Eilserv, worship a nameless Elder Elemental God instead of Lolth.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Drow in the Forgotten Realms<BR>In the Forgotten Realms, the drow were elves of the ancient tribes of Ilythiir, cast down and driven underground by the light-skinned elves because of the Ilythiirian's savagery during the Crown Wars. The drow had fallen under the influence of Lolth, who was cast down into the Demonweb Pits along with her son Vhaeraun by the elven god Corellon Larethian because of Lolth's and Vhaeraun's attempt to take control of the elven pantheon (which included Lolth's seduction of Corellon Larethian).The centre of drow civilization is the subterreanean city of Menzoberranzan.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drow may also worship Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm or Vhaeraun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amongst the most infamous of drow are the members of House Baenre, whilst Abeir-Toril is also home to some famous good-aligned drow including Drizzt Do'Urden and his deceased father Zaknafein, Liriel Baenre (formerly of Menzoberranzan's aforementioned House Baenre), and Qilué of the Seven Sisters. The drow elf Jarlaxle is also well-known, as he is one of the few males in Menzoberranzan to obtain a position of great power. He is the founder and former leader of the mercenary band Bregan D'aerthe, although he has since relinquished his band to Kimmuriel Oblodra in search of treasure and adventure on the surface world with his new companion Artemis Entreri. These characters are from The Dark Elf Trilogy (1990–1991), a series of books by R. A. Salvatore. The six drow in the War of the Spider Queen series have also gained some reknown since the novels have been published.</DIV> <DIV><BR>The Baldur's Gate series of computer games features drow as enemies and NPCs, as well as part of the game being set in the fictional drow city of Ust'Natha. The drow cleric of Shar, Viconia, features in Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn as a party member and, in the second game, a possible romantic interest. The Eilistraee-worshipping drow male Solaufein plays a minor role in the second game, but his role can be expanded into a romance with a mod. Jarlaxle, Drizzt Do'Urden, and the male elves Maznafein and Jalynfein also appear in the 1994 IMB-PC CD game Menzoberranzan.</DIV> <DIV><BR>In Icewind Dale, a drow named Nym steals dwarven weapons and artifacts and sells them to the goblin and orc armies attacking the elven fortress, the Shattered Hand. Since the armies are armed with dwarven weapons, the elf leader Larrel assumes the dwarves betrayed them, and thus shattered the previous alliance between the two. Thus, Nym is single-handedly responsible for the fall of both the dwarves and the elves in the Dale.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Drow in Eberron<BR>Inhabiting the jungles and underdark in the continental isle of Xen'drik, the drow in Eberron have a much more tribalistic culture than their other Dungeons & Dragons counterparts. They are not an offshoot of the elven race like in many other worlds but rather a separate, if similar, race. Instead of the spider goddess Lolth most tribes worship a male scorpion deity, though exceptions are not uncommon. The tribes are often xenophobic, and the social structure varies from tribe to tribe. It is known that the drow mastered elemental binding before gnomes did, and that there is a subgroup called the umbragen, or shadow elves, who worship the Mockery in the form of a scorpion god and Khyber; the umbragen dwell underground beneath Xen'drik and are noted for producing many warlocks and soulknives.</DIV> <DIV>Drow in Eberron run the gamut from almost feral in nature to being fully civilized and on par with the cultural level of Khorvaire, varying from tribe to tribe.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Drow in other campaign settings<BR>Different campaign settings portray drow in different ways.</DIV> <DIV>In the Dragonlance setting, dark elves are not a distinct race; rather, "dark elves" are elves who have been cast out by the other elves for various crimes, such as worship of the evil deities. Dalamar, an ally of Raistlin Majere, is the most notable of Krynn's dark elves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the Mystara/"Known World" setting, shadow elves are a race of subterranean elves who have been mutated via magic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In Mongoose Publishing's Drow War trilogy, the drow are recast as lawful evil villains and likened to the [Removed for Content]. The author of the series has stated that this was a deliberate reaction to the prevalence of renegade, non-evil drow characters.</DIV>

[CuddlingWo]

<div></div><div></div>Actually, if you read my post you will see that I never once told anyone they had to RP a certain way.  I did not say it was a rule that you had to RP official lore.  All I did was give advice.. and that is this..If you RP fan lore... and try to dictate that to other people who RP official lore.. or even other fan lore.. they will probably not RP with you.  If you enter the game as a teirdal and start talking about how you grew up in Neriak where everyone got along and passed around flowers to one another and were completely united... then my character...  as well as most Teir'dal characters.. will look at you like you are a rambling idiot.. if we RP with you at all.   A better example is the fan lore inspired by menzoberranzen drow.. that is adopted by so many teir'dal who RP that teir'dal females are superior to males.  My character RPs that way, he is a submissive dark elf male.. he sees females as superior.  The key thing is.. that is his personal viewpoint.  Never once do I tell any other dark elf that they have to follow that same ideal... neither IC or OOC... I have, however, had a female dark elf.. tell me OOC.. that I had to RP a mindless slave, because all teir'dal males.. according to her fan lore.. are mindless slaves without free will.Guess how many people RP with her?Again, I am telling noone how to RP.. I encourage people to have fun, that is all.. but the one thing I always hear people complain about is that there arnt enough RPers.. that they get stuck in these small groups of isolated storylines, and that is all!If you want to RP with a massive ammount of people.. it is a good idea that you all RP in the same universe.. meaning you all agree on the basic idea of what a dark elf is...  true, you can RP a strange dark elf with wierd ideas and customs... but when you try and apply it to all dark elves.. you astrange yourself as an RPer.So ill say it again like I said it before.  If you want to incorporate fan lore, and still RP with tons of people... make your fan lore a personal character belief or tradition... not an overall racial trait.Not telling people how to RP... cant make that clear enough.<div></div><p>Message Edited by CuddlingWolf on <span class="date_text">06-07-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:40 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by CuddlingWolf on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Arinwulf]

<DIV>Norse mythos speaks of light and dark elves.   In J. R. R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion, there is a story about a dark elf.  So R.A. Salvatore might have coined the term "Drow" but in no way did he come up with the race.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rashaak]

<P>The concept of how one could roleplay and how, is something that could be debated till......they decided to lock the thread! HA   :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Seriously though...I will only share one last thing....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#87ceeb>Why does a round pizza come in a square box? :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Because square boxes are easier manufacture, more cost effective because they're so easy to make, and gives room to put the pizza in and easily take it out.</DIV>

[wayfaerer]

I had this argument once, back on Tallon Zek in EQ1, when someone accused my Teir`Dal enchanter of being a drow. I quickly corrected him by pointing out that I was a Teir`Dal, not a Drow, and this heathen actually had the nerve to reply "same thing"! Boy oh boy did that make me mad!<div></div>

[hahn_ba]

<DIV>I liken it much to the similarities, yet glaring differences between the Star Wars and Star Trek universes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why mix the two? Are you so unoriginal that you can't immerse yourself in the world given to you that you have to fall back on foreign source material?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also may be considered somewhat of a purist, and don't want to see that trash in my gaming experience! It's their world now, after all.</DIV>

[Wilde_Night]

<P>While from similar roots,  saying a Forgotten Realms Dark elf is the same as a Norrath Dark elf is saying that Jelly is the same as Wine.</P> <P>They both are made from fruit, they both come in glass or plastic containers (depending on how cheap you are), but they are completely different products.</P> <P>Teir'Dal worship a male god, do not have huge political underground wars with each other and do not want to seriously take over the surface.  They would rather destroy it in the name of their god.  Since all they know is hate, this hate unifies them with one purpose.  Destroy all they hate, including themselves eventually.</P> <P>I enjoy playing a Teir'Dal versus a Drow.  One - Drow are what a small group of my friends like to call "Stupid evil".  They are so evil, they can not see what kind of self destruction their actions against themselves have on society as a whole.  Eventually with all their inner warring and blackmailing they will make themselves extinct before they reach their goals.</P> <P>Two - Teir'Dal have a more "equal opportunity" society.  Males and females are equally powerful in their lore, with the idea of a royal family and seperate sects within the city that are controlled by them.  So if one wants to play a meek female outcast, they can without a raised eyebrow and screams of "WRONG!"  Or you can play a powerful, respected male from Neriak long ago.  The way they set up the society leaves more leeway for role playing opportunites.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for the choice to use the Drow Language in game as a substiute for Thexian.  I see no issue with it, as long as those who chose to do so do not pressure or belittle those who chose not.  I have several characters that use Drow as a substiute, since they grew up in Neriak long before the War of the Fay.  There are many in my guild who use it as well.  But we do not punish those who do not wish to use it.  Often I will mix up the use of common and Drow in the public channels, so those who do not know it can at least get a jyst of the conversation taking place.  Full out Drow translation is saved for stories.</P> <P>All in all, there is no "right" way to play one on EQ.. I just do not want to see people using copyrighted first or last names (Seeing someone use Do'Urden really irks me, but I have learned to toss that out the window over the years)... or yelling at me that I am playing it wrong since my High Priestess of Innoruuk does not force her male guildies into servitude, which I have dealt with in the past.  It is my choice to follow the lore of the Teir'Dal as SOE/Verant see it.  It is others choice to try to blend the dark elves of other literature with that which is offered here.  And as long as there is a mutual respect all around, I have no issues with it.</P>

[Teksun]

I can be accused of something similar... Halflings will almost always be hobbits in my eyes...<div></div>

[Straylig]

The answer is obvious.DROW > Teir'Dal

[Zh]

I agree with most others here, do as you like but don't force it. The only thing I do in relation to all this is if I make a dark elf character I'll use this <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexshadow/drownames.html" target=_blank>drow name generator</a> to name them sometimes. I had named my dark elf dirge Keljss or "singing scout" lol. I honestly wish i knew more about the D&D drow but really my only touch with them has been The Dark Elf Trilogy by Salvatore and then 2 of the War of the Spider Queen books overseen by him. The thing is when I read them I don't see a drow like is on the front cover of The Dark Elf Trilogy, i see the dark skinned, white haired versions of Tier-Dal.<div></div>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>Arinwulf wrote:<div>Norse mythos speaks of light and dark elves.   In J. R. R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion, there is a story about a dark elf.  So R.A. Salvatore might have coined the term "Drow" but in no way did he come up with the race.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Tolkien's Moriquendi aren't anything like drow, though, despite both being "dark elves". His dark elves are dark because they didn't begin the journey to Valinor and chose to stay in Middle Earth. Physically, they look like the other elves, and they aren't evil.Personally, though, I use Quenya, Sindarin, and Drow, and sometimes take names from them, since we don't have actual languages in the game, but Norrath is not Middle Earth or Toril, and I don't think they should be treated as though they are. But, if someone wants to roleplay a drow and everyone they RP with is fine with that, well, have fun.</div>

[WarShe]

The in game Dark Elf lanuage is Thexian, you can find the language primer in Longshadow Alley.

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div></div>The in game Dark Elf lanuage is Thexian, you can find the language primer in Longshadow Alley.<hr></blockquote>Yes, but that doesn't mean you can actually speak it. There's no actual languages in the game, just font substitution. It's still English (or whatever language you're typing in). If you want actual words, you either have to make up your own or borrow another language, and Drow is probably the best-known.</div>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:The in game Dark Elf lanuage is Thexian, you can find the language primer in Longshadow Alley.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Yes, but that doesn't mean you can actually speak it. There's no actual languages in the game, just font substitution. It's still English (or whatever language you're typing in). If you want actual words, you either have to make up your own or borrow another language, and Drow is probably the best-known.</div><hr></blockquote>That's true, and also very annoying for those of us that have characters that are supposed to know teir'dal but haven't the slightest desire to learn or speak Drow.*cue hundreds of years old wisened teir'dal sage frantically sending off tells to figure out what the hell the person he's RPing with is saying in his native language* <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[plutek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>That's true, and also very annoying for those of us that have characters that are supposed to know teir'dal but haven't the slightest desire to learn or speak Drow.<BR><BR>*cue hundreds of years old wisened teir'dal sage frantically sending off tells to figure out what the hell the person he's RPing with is saying in his native language* <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>...Exactly.</P> <P>Sprinkle 'nau' and 'vendui,' etc in your speech. That's fine, even if someone doesn't know what they mean they can usually figure it out. I usually just have my characters listen to it as a pretty accent. And hey, if you find someone that wants to have an entire conversation in Drow with you, great! Just make sure everyone you're wanting to participate with wants the same.  Some people are wonderful and will translate it for you, more others will not, though. They'll even rag on you for not knowing it. I'm sorry, I don't want to spend hours of my out-of-game time learning a language my character is supposed to already understand in game.</P> <P>This topic has been the bane of my existance for the past two weeks in game. Drama, drama, drama! :smileyvery-happy:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Sort of something to think about:</P> <P>Somewhat related, since the biggest argument to using whatever Drow language whoever made is to because they lack an actual ingame language, some NPCs, ones that come to mind are a half elf in Willow Wood, near the Elddar zone, I <EM>think</EM> it's a half elf near the Coldwind Cove Grif tower in Thundering Steppes, as well as the barbarian who gives out quests on the Bridge Keep in TS, also iksar in Scale Yard, and pretty much some NPC in each of the districts, who actually speak their language if you haven't learned their language.</P> <P>  The iksar lady's one has a lot of S's, and some of the other elven languages are actually speaking someting, I believe, because they alternate between two or so things the NPC says.  These NPCs are actually speaking languages, might be interesting to try and figure out what langages exactly.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[CuddlingWo]

I brought this up in the EQLore channel on Lucan D'lere... someone said that they already tried that.. and picked apart the language that was spoken vs. the actual text that was said once they read the language primer.   They said there is no clear connection of any word to any other word between the spoken language and the same statement in common.  Apparently it is just gibberish...Still.. if anyone figures some connection out, let us know...Draxehn Telunodir(Just to plug it since I mentioned it.. the Lucan D'lere EQLore channel is for discussing lore and promoting RP throughout the server, including hosting many RP events and storylines on large-scales.  /join EQLore for you LDL players.. on other servers type /join Lucan_Dlere.EQLore)<div></div>

[SageGaspar]

Languages are just font-swapped. If you go into your EQ2 directory there's a font folder buried somewhere in there. You too can type in Halasian on your computer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But yeah, people do go around translating the written language stuff on the walls. Since it has all the same grammatical rules as english, it'd just be english except with different sounds for the letters (if it's actually anything at all). I guess you could then translate those sounds phonetically into english and create some sort of bastardized english version of each language, buuuut... naw. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Dreyco]

Dark elves are a race rich in history and personality.  There is a lot of room for character development, for character interaction, and opportunities for stories with what is presented from the Lore developers at Sony. The War of the Fay The Assault and Sealing of Neriak The Perversion of the Thex Family, and Innoruuk's chosen. The Thexian Uprising that is building in and out of Freeport and much much more. A race bred of hatred, to spread hatred, for the prince of hatred.  In my opinion, there is nothing dull about that at all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Regarding the language in itself... yes, it is a "spoken" language (within Norrath that is), and yes, it does have it's own sound that is different from english.  Roll up a gnome, and try to run through Longshadow Alley without learning Thexian.  You can hear the dark elves speaking it, and it's not font substitution at all, even though there are particular symbols to represent letters or words, as there are in a few other languages around the world. And, as it is with life itself, if someone takes the time to learn the language... say... japanese, then if a native of Japan walked up and started a conversation, the other person would be able to understand what is being said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , hence why there are language primers. Dreyco speaks Sebilisian.  It's his native tongue.  Others will glare at him for refusing to speak a common tongue.  And there are those who understand him when he makes a witty retort to a "blueskin" in the party, and call him on it.  But that adds to the fun. Of course, there is no "wrong" way to play EverQuest I or II.  Though I can understand confusion when first interacting with someone that chooses to use the drow language.  I know I had a bit of trouble myself understanding some of the words when I first started role-playing in EverQuest a while back <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[CuddlingWo]

You know what... he's right... there is no wrong way to play EQ1/2...Other than RPing a Drow  (BURN!!!)But seriously, my suggestion is the same I tell everyone in the EQLore room... its fine to be different.  If you want to RP that you are just like a drow in every aspect.... more power to you.   However...  the moment you walk around telling other teir'dal to RP drow... or even walk around claiming that yours is a matriarchial society, and not simply a tradition that you personally or your house personally follows.. then you are no longer simply following different lore.  Then.. you are going against EQ2 lore... and that makes it hard to RP with you.  RP whatever you want... but have a reason for being different.  Don't try to say that all of your race is just like you unless you read the lore and play the stereotype of your race as EQ2 lore defines it.  It's ok to be special....That being said... In my humble ("Yeah Right!"  Hey! Who said that?) opinion...  Teir'dal are more fascinating than drow... I RP a Teir'dal.Draxehn TelunodirTeir'dal<div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Dreyco wrote: Regarding the language in itself... yes, it is a "spoken" language (within Norrath that is), and yes, it does have it's own sound that is different from english.  Roll up a gnome, and try to run through Longshadow Alley without learning Thexian.  You can hear the dark elves speaking it, and it's not font substitution at all, even though there are particular symbols to represent letters or words, as there are in a few other languages around the world. And, as it is with life itself, if someone takes the time to learn the language... say... japanese, then if a native of Japan walked up and started a conversation, the other person would be able to understand what is being said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , hence why there are language primers. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you here, the written language most definitely is font substitution. There are a myriad of translation threads you can read on these boards and others where written texts in all sorts of languages are directly translated via font substitution using the fonts in the EQ2 folder.If you're claiming there's another spoken language that they made up for every race that obeys some sort of different grammar rules and word ordering, that's pretty unlikely. If they went to all that trouble they'd be publishing it in the rulebooks and using it in the written texts. Most likely the voice actors were either given a direct one-to-one translation of letters and symbols into different sounds, or they were just guided on how they wanted the NPCs to sound and spoke gibberish.You can meta this out one step further even and claim that SoE was just lazy and of course everyone doesn't just have a font-swapped alphabet, but I somehow doubt that the random actors speaking gibberish is an accurate representation of this.In fact, I just did your test and found a male and a female teir'dal who spoke Thexian. Turns out they were both reading the exact same line. But then again, I guess everything sounds the same to people who don't know the language, right? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />EDIT: And on even further testing, it looks like they just had a list of incomprehensible teir'dal dialogue that they had a male and female VA read, and they just use them randomly. Same female had at least three different verbal responses including the one that the guy had had. And they weren't both one of those random "Y'know what sucks? The Coalition of Tradesfolk." people <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>06-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:10 PM</span>

[Dreyco]

Hence why I said "Norrathian Terms" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Let me see if I can clarify what I said... If a gnome walks through the Scale Yard and listens to Sebilisian, for instance, they aren't hearing heavily accentuated common... to a Norrathian, that IS indeed it's own language <span>:smileyhappy:</span> In technical terms, yes, if you look at the symbols, there is one per letter, and it would equate to an english phrase if you substituted one for the other.  What I was focussing on was the fact that while there isn't a dictionary out there that says, "Yes = This" and "No = That", the interpretation of it to a random Norrathian Human passerby that doesn't know the language would probably be the same as myself trying to understand other languages that I haven't learned <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , and there are creative ways to express yourself with that language (Hence my reference to Dreyco's Sebilisian) without having to substitute. A little imagination goes a long way.  Then again, I have a very over-active imationation <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[WarShe]

<DIV>We dont have a ton of Halflings running around claiming to be Hobbits, thats because like the drow they dont exist in Norrath. Those can both be played in other games, in Norrath we have Teir Dals and Halflings though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the language agreed on the imagination thing. If I had to literaly learn an entire new language to understand the game I wouldnt have been playing for so long lol.</DIV>

[Jetrauben2]

<P>Tier'dal and Drow differ rather fundamentally both in temperament and in society. While both are evil, that's really about it. Here's my reading of (loyalisyt) Tier'dal culture.</P> <P>Tier'dal are a highly imperialistic race obsessed with racial and ideological purity. State control over the individual and the family is high, and individuals and families are monitored for any signs of impurity and reprimanded or even purged if they display sufficiently heretical traits. Tier'dal probably display an almost admirable, obsessive devotion to their society- they're raised to consider themselves as soldiers of Hate and a good soldier doesn't rebel against his or her general. The individual is allowed to benefit only through the greater benefit of Innoruuk's cause. Nobles are those bloodlines whom Innoruuk has hallowed and thus are superior to less noble individuals, but still would be raised to consider the 'greater evil' first and their own personal desires second. Controlled strife is practiced only to keep the tier'dal people strong, and while power games would be played they would never be allowed to reach to a level where the race as a whole is endangered.</P> <P>While Drow are a sensual, female-dominated race, I don't quite see Tier'dal the same way. Tier'dal would regard almost all activities of life coldly and calculatingly- including love. Passion is rarely given free reign, and strong emotional attachment or commitments are probably discouraged. Gender would be almost irrelevant to a good tier'dal believer- both are Innoruuk's pure handiwork, so why bother trying to say that one form is more pristine than the other? If anything, males would hate females (in a generalized, philosophical way) and females would hate males (in the same manner) but neither would be socially or culturally superior. </P>

[CuddlingWo]

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said.. it is inferring and assuming a lot based on the lore provided.. and so it would be wrong for me to teach such things in my room, since it is primarily for people to learn the lore of the races and of Norrath, in order to base their characters on the same general universe as others..The one thing I will disagree on, is the extemely controlled nature of their strife.  I very much think that Teir'dal get way out of hand with their internal fighting, and very often, and often to the detriment of their society.  Case in point:  The Queen's intentions in using the Battle of Fay as a chance to assassinate the King, even though it would no doubt destroy their opportunity to rid the world of the light elves.As to the rest, again, not necessarily lore-accurate, but also not inaccurate.  I consider your opinion of them fan lore.. but not contradictory fan lore.. which in my eyes is just fine and I greatly encourage people to elaborate on the parts of lore that are not clearly defined for them.   Again, not trying to say I disagree on your take of Teir'dal.  I pretty much agree with everything you said except the controlled nature of their strife... even though I do agree that in most cases it is controlled, I think they do get out of hand sometimes.Bravo on  your interpretation though, at the very least it is extremely interesting, and probably pretty accurate.Draxehn<div></div>

[WarShe]

<P>This is the part that in general bothered me the most and in many ways it is the racist stereo typing of the dark elves in Norrath.</P> <P>" 'greater evil' first and their own personal desires second"</P> <P>You cant just assume the entire race is exactly the same and have the exact same goals and plans if you hope to have an acurate potrayal of Teir Dal.</P> <P>As I have always understood it, its the individual that comes first, Me Me Me whats in it for me? what do I get out of doing this? ect ect. Not what evil can I make of this.</P> <P>Yes im sure there are many who are 110% corrupted with evil, but that would be a developed trait in my opinion. Most wont waste time planning and doing evil unless there is a profit in it or personal gain  in the very near future.</P> <P>Working with others happens often enough but in such a way that the teir dal make it seem as if you will owe them for their help in a group or all their work, in such ways the dark elves get their feel of quick personal gain in two ways first being You owe them for what they have contributed and 2 they secretly needed this them selves and no one knows it. By pretending to assist others they help them selves and then some.</P> <P>Just my opinions feel free to disagree.</P>

[Jetrauben2]

I never said al Tier'dal were the same. That's simply my reading of tier'dal culture. Obviously there will be deviants. But given the absolute monarchy and totalitarian tone of the tier'dal people I don't imagine they like too much individuality when it may threaten the society's goals (fostering hate).

[CuddlingWo]

I agree, I think the culture is designed on a very rigid society first type guideline... but that most teir'dal only pay that lip service, and secretly obey personal desires.<div></div>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div></div> <div> </div> <div>As far as the language agreed on the imagination thing. If I had to literaly learn an entire new language to understand the game I wouldnt have been playing for so long lol.</div><hr></blockquote>No one wants that, although some people do enjoy languages and using them to add flavour to their roleplaying. Since there's no Teir'Dal/English dictionary, and people want to be understood, they use Drow instead, since there is a list of drow words and some grammar that have been published over the years. Same with Tolkien's languages - both Quenya and Sindarin are fairly well-developed, quite recognisable as Elvish, and work quite nicely to add flavour. Until they give us an actual Norrathian language, those will have to do.</div>

[Dreyco]

<blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>WarSheol wrote:<div></div> <div> </div> <div>As far as the language agreed on the imagination thing. If I had to literaly learn an entire new language to understand the game I wouldnt have been playing for so long lol.</div><hr></blockquote>No one wants that, although some people do enjoy languages and using them to add flavour to their roleplaying. Since there's no Teir'Dal/English dictionary, and people want to be understood, they use Drow instead, since there is a list of drow words and some grammar that have been published over the years. Same with Tolkien's languages - both Quenya and Sindarin are fairly well-developed, quite recognisable as Elvish, and work quite nicely to add flavour. Until they give us an actual Norrathian language, those will have to do.</div><hr></blockquote>And I think a little flavor goes a long way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though thinking for some of those who might not be all too familiar with the Drow language as a whole, let me present this to you.. and don't take it as deragatory by any means <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Let's just say I roll up a dark elf.  This dark elf would be, of course, fluent in Thexian, would understand its ins and outs, all the conjugations, words, etcetera.  Yet if he tries to engage in a conversation with another dark elf that uses increadibly heavy drow... immidiately, his understanding is limited, as I, or another player, might not understand the language.  Adding in... i'll bring up Dreyco again, a character who is a historian, and multi-lingual.  He studied the thexian language over his many years, and is fluent in it's speaking.  If he walks up to a dark elf, and begins a discussion in Thexian, and the return is drow... putting myself back in my shoes a long time ago when I had no understanding of even the basic words, I as the player, and the character, would be increadibly confused. What i'm trying to get at is.... it can mean more immersion to those who use it, or those who might understand it, but what about the new player's experiance, who might not understand a single word? When Dreyco first came into this world, a long time ago, his first association and interaction was a dark elf who used heavy drow.  Not new to role-play, but new to Drow in general, i didn't understand a single word that was being said, and felt a bit... left out, so to speak.  So I can understand those that still have trouble with the language <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm curious, how is it then that these characters that understand Thexian fluently, don't understand what another dark elf might be saying? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As of now, my character refers to it (when other confused iksar ask) as heavy tier`dal gutter slang.. but that's besides the point! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Troubor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreyco wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lera wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WarSheol wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the language agreed on the imagination thing. If I had to literaly learn an entire new language to understand the game I wouldnt have been playing for so long lol.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No one wants that, although some people do enjoy languages and using them to add flavour to their roleplaying. Since there's no Teir'Dal/English dictionary, and people want to be understood, they use Drow instead, since there is a list of drow words and some grammar that have been published over the years. Same with Tolkien's languages - both Quenya and Sindarin are fairly well-developed, quite recognisable as Elvish, and work quite nicely to add flavour. Until they give us an actual Norrathian language, those will have to do.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And I think a little flavor goes a long way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though thinking for some of those who might not be all too familiar with the Drow language as a whole, let me present this to you.. and don't take it as deragatory by any means <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Let's just say I roll up a dark elf.  This dark elf would be, of course, fluent in Thexian, would understand its ins and outs, all the conjugations, words, etcetera.  Yet if he tries to engage in a conversation with another dark elf that uses increadibly heavy drow... immidiately, his understanding is limited, as I, or another player, might not understand the language.  Adding in... i'll bring up Dreyco again, a character who is a historian, and multi-lingual.  He studied the thexian language over his many years, and is fluent in it's speaking.  If he walks up to a dark elf, and begins a discussion in Thexian, and the return is drow... putting myself back in my shoes a long time ago when I had no understanding of even the basic words, I as the player, and the character, would be increadibly confused.<BR><BR>What i'm trying to get at is.... it can mean more immersion to those who use it, or those who might understand it, but what about the new player's experiance, who might not understand a single word? When Dreyco first came into this world, a long time ago, his first association and interaction was a dark elf who used heavy drow.  Not new to role-play, but new to Drow in general, i didn't understand a single word that was being said, and felt a bit... left out, so to speak.  So I can understand those that still have trouble with the language <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>I'm curious, how is it then that these characters that understand Thexian fluently, don't understand what another dark elf might be saying? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As of now, my character refers to it (when other confused iksar ask) as heavy tier`dal gutter slang.. but that's besides the point! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know some who use D&D "Drow" language in their RP.  None I know speak completly in it, they just interject some words.  "Xas" for yes, "Nau" for no, "Dos" for you, etc.  Since all of them are in the same RP circle of friends, they all basically claim that the words they are interjecting are from an archaic version of Thexian.  Imagine someone who due to cultural pride or some such used "Thee", "Thou" and so forth in their everyday English.  One of the people I know who does that has a very old character IC, the other simply has a lot of "Thexian pride" so to speak.</P> <P>Having said that, both play alts that are Tier'Dal, and don't pepper their speach with such, since for those characters it wouldn't be fitting.</P> <P>Anyway, Troubor, my main treats usage of "Drow" as ancient Thexian and an archaic usage.  How I decided to handle it.  I've never encountered someone who's used nothing but D&D Drow in their speach.</P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by Arvig on <span class=date_text>06-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Drekkus]

The problem with Drow is that it is not a complete language. Which means, that when you pepper in some Drow into a sentence, it looks like your character doesn't know how to speak Commontongue or Thexian.It looks really silly quando enim throw in words accumulo another language into tuum sentences. Not only ecquae it make what vos are saying very difficult to understand, but it also makes tuus characters look uneducated or subtilis ignarus.<div></div>

[Troubor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drekkus wrote:<BR>The problem with Drow is that it is not a complete language. Which means, that when you pepper in some Drow into a sentence, it looks like your character doesn't know how to speak Commontongue or Thexian.<BR><BR>It looks really silly quando enim throw in words accumulo another language into tuum sentences. Not only ecquae it make what vos are saying very difficult to understand, but it also makes tuus characters look uneducated or subtilis ignarus. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well..it would also depend on how much they pepper it in, and how they pepper it in, IMO.  The ones I mentioned in my encounters only do a "light" peppering, and I could follow their conversations fine.  In fact, before I found out it was "D&D Drow", I assumed it was an attempt to simulate a Thexian accent, not adding in a smattering of Drow to flavor how they spoke.</P> <P>As an aside..no, I don't think one should substitute Forgotten Realms, Grayhawk or any other D&D Drow culture into EQ/EQ2's Tier'Dal's.  But, since we don't have a true written language, just a command to shift over to "speaking" Thexian if we know the tongue, I see no harm in peppering in one or two words of "Drow" into the speach, as long as the sentence itself is understandable, and people do realize that not ever Tier'Dal being roleplayed will do such...and that a Tier'Dal using "Dos, Xas" etc in their speach may have to explain why.  (Again, my friends say it's from an archaic dialect, no longer in popular use..maybe not pure Lore, may even make a hardcore lorehead cringe, but IMO works for me..but then again, I'm a high elf.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )</P> <P> </P>

[CuddlingWo]

((Going to attempt to say something without being flamebait... if it dosn't work... ill back off for longer...))Hell I'm one of the biggest loreheads I know.. I'm all about lore-based RP.. and even I like the way Vendui and Aluve sound.  What I would really like I guess, is for someone to actually come up with some UNIQUE words though..  I don't say Vendui or Aluve except to those who I know prefer to say it, and I don't say it because I like Drow more than Teir'dal.  But I do agree that its nice to have something like that "peppered in" as you put it. (Nice analogy.. especially since too much pepper makes most of us kinda sick, as does using a drow word every third word.)Anyone want to take the time to come up with a few unique little words or phrases to use as greetings in different languages?  Even if only a handful of us adopt them, we would probably be understood if we used it in response to "hello", just like "vendui" is often quickly understood.  And who knows, it might spread!Iksars, try not to be too heavy on the "s" sounds if you create a greeting... you guys always spit on me when enunciating your "s"s.If one kerran tells me to have a purrfect day.. ill stab it in the eyes..Aside from those two guidelines, anyone want to take a dive at coming up with some racial phrases?<div></div>

[Troubor]

<P>Well..all I say is don't say anything inflamitory, and you won't be "flamebait".  You're not being persecuted, people are just reactiong to what you post Draxehn.</P> <P>To be on topic...I guess in my mind we do already have an established tongue, albeit from copyrighted works.  I suppose if someone did really wish to put in the effort, it could be fun..but then you need to have some group accept it, and so forth.  Not saying it's impossible, I mean if there's translations of Shakespeare into Klingon it's possible to not only make up one's own Tier'Dal language then have it accepted by a fan community, but it would be a lot of work.  </P> <P>But...to play somewhat of a devil's advocate with myself, again D&D Drow is copyrighted, so to have something that isn't copyrighted would be nice.  If nothing else so that the PnP versions of the game, like D&D can have a mini language primer, and so forth.</P> <P>As an aside, the PnP Sci-Fi RPG game Traveller had their language primers for their alien races.  Included with it was a "random name and word generator" for each major language..one rolled how many syllables each word had on a d6, then from there consulted three different tables until one got a word.  One could then truncate or even add to the word until it got to something that was manageable.  As they explained it, if one did this with English..one might get 50 or 100 nonsense words, then hit one real one at random, but all the nonsense words would be pronounceable, and would "look" like they could be English words.  Don't think they stated this, but always got the impression the mini-language primer of words already in existance were in part words just created, in part randomly generated from their own tables.</P> <P> </P>

[WarShe]

<DIV>I always pictured the teir dal spoken language and written one a bit different since they use so many ' ' 's  So written may look like D'aye but said out loud would be Die. but not all would be so easy to translate from text to speach.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thoughts feel free to disagree :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Troubor]

<P>Here, to be more on topic with a post, an old quote from a thread from about a month ago on the LDL forums also discussing this topic.  Does pretty much mimic what I've said in this thread, but did want to try to steer the thread back on topic, since I did reply once to Draxehn's little derailment/post directly to me:</P> <P>"</P> <P>What I have encountered when people use Forgotten Realms "Drowish" isn't whole sentences of such, but one or two words thrown in.  They might use "Xas" for yes, "Dos" for you and so forth.  Troubor IC, and myself IRL have picked up a small handful of said words from dark elves doing exactly that.  (As an aside, Troubor speaks Thexian also, despite being a high elf, via a quest that's part of the Bloodlines Chronicles)</P> <P>The friends I have (where I hear it most) that use such treat EQ's Thexian as the more modern language, "Drowish" as an ancient version of same...imagine someone using "Thee" and "Thou" while speaking in English perhaps.  In general, their characters are either very old RP wise, and/or have some other reason like cultural identity to use "archaic" Thexian.</P> <P>Is this 100% EQ lore.  Probably not.  Will I shout at them "USE THEXIAN ONLY", no..but even within my own guild, one I consider moderate RP, I'd never put a proverbial gun to their head and scream "ROLEPLAY!" or even "ROLEPLAY 100% EQ LORE!".</P> <P>Or put it another way, as long as it's not stomping on my roleplay/having fun, and they seem to be having fun, I'm happy.</P> <P>Just as a comment, if I encountered a Thexian speaker looking confused at someone popping off with "Xas" or "Dos" or other D&D/Forgotten Realms derived "Drowish" words, I would RPit that her or she must be someone who only knows the modern version of Thexian, although such would have to come up in conversation for me to even say that.  Past that point, if the person then denied that an archaic Thexian existed, I'd just wing it based on how I felt...suspect Troubor wouldn't correct the person, or maybe just mention once that he has friends who do use such, and he's going by what they told him, then drop the subject.</P> <P>My two coppers on said topic."</P> <P> </P>

[Troubor]

<P>One thing I'll ask, I wonder if people also have heard other "languages" in game, other then "Drow" for "Tier'Dal"?  Okay, I've heard Iksar do long "S" sounds at the end of words, albeit that isn't very constant...and a lot of ratonga speak in "plurals"..one friend of mine calles me "Troubors" for instance.  But none other then Tier'Dal seem to use words from another game or genre in their RP here.</P> <P>Anyone?</P> <P> </P>

[Troubor]

<P>Okay, I'll ask this.  Anyone know of any language that wouldn't be too obvious (like trying to use Klingon for ogres, or whatever Jabba the Hutt spoke for some race) for an EQ race?</P> <P> </P>

[CuddlingWo]

Alright then, back on topic... I guess im the only one who can admit when im wrong.. even if it takes me a couple days to realize it...I still like the idea of making up our own phrases...  it wouldn't be difficult to do so, since it would only be a few phrases.. and spreading the word to everyone to start using klingon for ogre, and sharing a few phrases.. would be just as easy as spreading the word to start using a unique phrase..  either way it will spread in usage the same depending on how openly it is accepted..I think we could easily enough collect various names and phonetic traits in the EQ lore, from where people of different races are directly quoted.  Like Teir'dal often using apostraphe marks as a form of phonetics.. someone used the example of something like D'aye being pronounced Die.  <div></div>

[StrollingWolf]

Right, now that this thread is a bit shorter, keep it on topic and not about personal grievances towards one another.

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StrollingWolf wrote:<BR> Right, now that this thread is a bit shorter, keep it on topic and not about personal grievances towards one another.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What did you do to the thread?

[CuddlingWo]

He deleted a lot of the back and forth between me and Troubor.<div></div>

[KidMangaX]

<P>The difference is this:</P> <P> </P> <P>Drows are piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmppppppppppiiiiiiiiiii innnnn</P> <P> </P> <P>Teir Dal' are all Sasuke Uchiha wannabees. They never say anything, they always mumble, and they all think its cool to make their names sassssuuuke ukiha or some other poor spelling of Sasuke Uchiha. Also, many Teir Dal are, infact, assassins. I dont care if the female dark elves wanna name themselves sasuke uchiha, cuz for all ya know, hes a female, but comeon guys, its just not cool :smileymad:</P>

[Diamondfi]

This may just be what I've picked up from crappy online manga, but this is how I see it: Drow live underground, hate and enslave other races, feud each other constantly, and are matriarchal.  They usually form a system of houses or clans.  They are highly religious and base many of their cultural elements around their Goddess.Teir'dal are aboveground, blue-skinned, interact with other races but are usually kept in check genocide-wise, and both sexes are pretty much equal.  They are more politically and not religiously oriented, although they follow the god of hate, Innoruuk.IMO, Teir'dal are more fun to play, since they have fewer restrictions and aren't as hindered by their culture as traditional drow.  Plus there's slightly more variation in physical appearance,<div></div>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diamondfire wrote:<BR>This may just be what I've picked up from crappy online manga, but this is how I see it: <BR><BR>Drow live underground, hate and enslave other races, feud each other constantly, and are matriarchal.  They usually form a system of houses or clans.  They are highly religious and base many of their cultural elements around their Goddess.<BR><BR><STRONG>Teir'dal are aboveground, blue-skinned, interact with other races but are usually kept in check genocide-wise, and both sexes are pretty much equal.  They are more politically and not religiously oriented, although they follow the god of hate, Innoruuk.</STRONG><BR><BR>IMO, Teir'dal are more fun to play, since they have fewer restrictions and aren't as hindered by their culture as traditional drow.  Plus there's slightly more variation in physical appearance,<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a somewhat recent development.  In EQ, the Teir'Dal home city of Neriak was under ground (Fallen Gate is what is left of the beginning of their city, in EQ known as the Foreign Quarter).  Teir'Dal were very religious, and political, it was something of a statewide religion.  Though not enforced, you could get much further (less faction work, anyways) serving Innoruuk than you could following Rallos, Bristlebane, Solusek, or being agnostic.  One of the largest and most grandeur structures in the anceint city was the Temple of Innoruuk, located in the Third Gate, separating the majority of the Third Gate from Neriak Commons (Neriak's social elite resided in Third Gate, where as is indicated by the name, the more common folk lived in Neriak Commons.  This isn't to say that some cross over did not exist.)  The reason to the Teir'Dal's recent move to the surface is sort of complicated, but can be summed up by saying that most of Neriak (the Commons and the Third Gate) got sealed off by command of Queen Cristanos Thex roughly 300 years ago.  Those that live in Freeport and the renegade Thexians, are those that were left behind and their descendants.  It bears no wonder that many would lose their religion after Innoruuk went silent, along with the rest of the gods, and after suffering the humilations of the War of the Fay, and the sealing of Neriak.  I'm sure the ones who are stuck outside are feeling pretty rejected by the their Dark Father (or, depending on who you talk to, overly loved).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>