Epic Lore

[Ama]

<DIV>There are many monsters within EverQuest that are considered "Epic" in preportion that require many more people than just a single group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However how do these creatures come about? Are they born with this strength, do they gain it through some ritual, is it inherited *back to born with it*, or is there something more behind it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good place to start is our lonely friend the Windstalker Rumbler who is an epicx2 but is consider an "Epic battle" monster.  How did the Windstalker Rumbler come about, was he/she born that way with tremendous power, or was he/she granted that power in some way?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can now graduate to the most epic of monsters Lord Nagafen the almighty "Red Dragon of Fire" who resides in Soluseks Eye.  He is a mighty epic monster that no one by game mechanic standards can defeat however the lore behind him and other dragons can prove how they are considered "Powerful Creatures."  We can also see how he and his brethern would be considered mighty "Epic" monsters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But for the other monsters who are epic in preportion how do they become epic?  That is the real question I am asking to all of our lore fanatics/historians. :smileywink:</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Game mechanics again, but generally you can just look at the monster and tell that you're gonna need a lot of people to kill it...</DIV>

[Jindrack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However how do these creatures come about? Are they born with this strength, do they gain it through some ritual, is it inherited *back to born with it*, or is there something more behind it?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Short answer:  Yes.</P> <P>Longer answer:  Depends on the creature. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jindrack wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Amana wrote: <div></div> <div> </div> <div>However how do these creatures come about? Are they born with this strength, do they gain it through some ritual, is it inherited *back to born with it*, or is there something more behind it?</div> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>Short answer:  Yes.</p> <p>Longer answer:  Depends on the creature. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>LOL .. so .. with this understanding<ul><li>Some creatures are born and grow into "epic"</li><ul><li>Dragons (prob rituals too)</li></ul></ul><ul><li>some gained through rituals.</li><ul><li>Capt.'s in the city are trained therefore they are X4 deep in</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Some genetic</li><ul><li>Dreadwake?</li></ul></ul>Thats the way i took the developer's comments.. If you picked out a creature you were intrested in, you may get some more percise response... For instance I would pick Dreadwake... Due to my overwhelming fear of sharks... (I kill him whenever he's up just to make me feel better.. LOL)</div>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>To expand on what Jin said (since I easily know as much about this game as a dev /sarcasm off), different epics become epics in different ways!</P> <P>There is a large spider in Nektulos named Adelidaes who has probably grown to such incredible strengths by centuries of feeding upon the denizens of Nektulos, and growing in power.  If I were to guess, the same could apply to our friend, the Windstalker Rumbler.  He has drown tough, and strong from centuries of survival.</P> <P>Others, like Vaz'Gok the Cursed, who was a gifted mortal, who honed his skills, who eventually had his soul used to imbue a living statue, are epic through a combination of some natural ability, some hard training, and some magic ritual.</P> <P>Different epics become epics by different ways.  Think about the mob in question, and use Malcom's Razor:  Often times, the most obvious answer is the correct answer.  Emperor Fyst is very, very strong.  Probably because he trains all day, and has survived by defeating any who oppose him.  Dragons are naturally very strong, very magical creatures, it is no wonder that many of them would take a small army to defeat them, especially the older ones, since the older a dragon, the more powerful a dragon.</P> <P>And although Cusa hates to mix game mechanics and lore, a lot of the game mechanics are there to make the game more realistic in lore perspective.  You wouldn't expect to be able to kill a giant king with a single blow, now, would you?</P>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>I would say that there are a number of different 'flavors' of MOBs in any MMORPG.</P> <P>You have your ordinary, 'generic' MOB, (IE: a Sabertooth Battler, or a Rujarkian Highwayman).  These are MOBs that are granted their strength from the necessities of game mechanics.  There is really no reason why, for instance, an Orc from Shifting Sands should be so disproprtionately stronger than a Bloodskull Orc, other than the dictates of finding higher zones and MOBS to populate them.  Trying to find a rationale to explain that disparity it is an exercise in futility.  It may work up to a point, but breaks down when you have armadillos, (for instance), that are stronger than named Orc Leaders from a lower zone.</P> <P>So, comparing MOBs from one zone to another, simply does not work rationally.</P> <P>Within the population of a particular zone, there are some MOBS that are the 'stronger' examples of a species, as granted by birth and genetics, (so-to-speak).  Some Orcs are 40th level, some Orcs are 40th ^ level, etc.</P> <P>Named MOBs within a particular zone may have their exceptional strength, (whether heroic, or epic), because of their position, and/or, because they are exceptional examples of their particular species. (again, remember that this is only applicable to MOBs in the same zone).</P> <P>The last type of MOB, are NPCs of legend.  These are MOBs  that are intregal parts of the plot line and are fundamental characters within the story line.  They must be stronger, (compared to the other creatures in their zones), because of their special status within the lore of the game.</P> <P>They have to be challenging (at their level), or they loose the mystique of their position within the lore.  That was an essential problem with EQ1, in my opinion.  The creatures of legend, indeed the gods themselves, were killable, and therefore their status within the game lore was reduced.</P>

[numbaseven]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nocturnal Abyss wrote:<div></div> <p>Think about the mob in question, and use Malcom's Razor:  Often times, the most obvious answer is the correct answer.  </p><hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>lol you mean Occam's Razor?</div>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>*opens mouth, inserts foot*</P> <P>Anyone else have the taste of rubber in their mouth?</P> <P>Hehe, yes, thank you very much for the correction.  Very lovely little principle, all the same, though <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> numbaseven wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocturnal Abyss wrote:<BR> <P>Think about the mob in question, and use Malcom's Razor:  Often times, the most obvious answer is the correct answer. </P><BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> </BLOCKQUOTE>lol you mean Occam's Razor?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Heh heh I was about to say the same thing numbaseven ya beat me to it. </P> <P>I'm just glad that this lore is a bit more complex.</P> <P>I do agree that powerful entities like Dragons grow into their powers and of what elements they are.  Dragons are also imbued with their power such as the Berserk and OverPowered "Kerafyrm the Prismatic Dragon". </P> <P>The only way I thought Vaz'Gok got his power was the transference of his mortal soul into that giant statue.  However he was betrayed and was used instead of being granted that power. *Can't seem to find it, maybe on eq2players.com*</P> <P>Only problem with the dreadwake scenario being genetic is how he must have descended from a long line of powerful entities.  Course we all know about the quest in the Kingdom of Sky and that the gnomes have studied about "Genetics".  They know enough that if they minutly poison the adult drakes then allow them to lay eggs over a certain period of time that poison can accumulate as a hereditary disorder. </P> <P>I guess Dreadwake could be a possible mutation where he was bigger, stronger, and faster than the other sharks thus it resulted in his epic status. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Hirebra]

<div><blockquote><hr><p>  Course we all know about the quest in the Kingdom of Sky and that the gnomes have studied about "Genetics".  They know enough that if they minutly poison the adult drakes then allow them to lay eggs over a certain period of time that poison can accumulate as a hereditary disorder. </p> <p></p><hr></blockquote>That's not genetics that's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism" target=_blank>Lamarckism</a>. Would be interesting if that principle applied to the world of Norrath, though.</div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirebrand wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P> Course we all know about the quest in the Kingdom of Sky and that the gnomes have studied about "Genetics".  They know enough that if they minutly poison the adult drakes then allow them to lay eggs over a certain period of time that poison can accumulate as a hereditary disorder. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's not genetics that's <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism" target=_blank>Lamarckism</A>. Would be interesting if that principle applied to the world of Norrath, though.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'll have to dig around but I swear I remember that Aviak saying that the gnome said it effects them on a "Genetic Level". <BR>

[Lonissa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Amana wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hirebrand wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><p> Course we all know about the quest in the Kingdom of Sky and that the gnomes have studied about "Genetics".  They know enough that if they minutly poison the adult drakes then allow them to lay eggs over a certain period of time that poison can accumulate as a hereditary disorder. </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>That's not genetics that's <a target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism">Lamarckism</a>. Would be interesting if that principle applied to the world of Norrath, though.</div><hr></blockquote>I'll have to dig around but I swear I remember that Aviak saying that the gnome said it effects them on a "Genetic Level". <hr></blockquote>I just happened to have this quest in my log still <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"Hello again. I have the machine."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"You still haven't told me what I'm doing."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"In case you haven't picked up on it yet, the droag have been breeding drakes here. Every drake the dragons get is another weapon of war to some day be used against the aviaks. I think long term, if you recall. My gnome friend has come up with a device that will help aviaks in the long run."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"What device?"</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"The gnome called it an Organo-Synthetic Egg Diagnosticator. I have no idea what the significance of that name is, but I do know what the device does."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"And that is?"</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"The drakes being hatched here serve two purposes, Lonissa. First, they will serve as warriors. And second, they will help to create future batches of drake eggs. My gnome friend has come up with a method to poison that process. This device can be used on a mature drake egg and it will inject it with... well I don't know what it injects it with. The end result, however, is amazing."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"What is the end result?"</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"From these hatched eggs emerge fully functional drakes. From their eggs the same will occur. It isn't until four or five generations that the alterations will become apparent. The effect leaves any future drakes unable to produce offspring. Because it is hereditary prior to its activation it will spread for quite some time before it will ever be noticed. The dragons will continue to breed their drake army, possibly for many more years to come, but eventually it will stop."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"What will happen then?"</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"My people will free themselves from their future enslavement."</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"And you really believe everything will go off without a hitch?"</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">Taer Felwind says to you,"Of course not, nothing ever goes like it is intended. But I do believe it will work enough to make a difference for my people, and that is what I care about. Will you help or not?"</font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">You say to Taer Felwind,"I will help."</font><div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emaleth2000 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirebrand wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P> Course we all know about the quest in the Kingdom of Sky and that the gnomes have studied about "Genetics".  They know enough that if they minutly poison the adult drakes then allow them to lay eggs over a certain period of time that poison can accumulate as a hereditary disorder. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's not genetics that's <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism" target=_blank>Lamarckism</A>. Would be interesting if that principle applied to the world of Norrath, though.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'll have to dig around but I swear I remember that Aviak saying that the gnome said it effects them on a "Genetic Level". <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I just happened to have this quest in my log still <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"Hello again. I have the machine."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"You still haven't told me what I'm doing."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"In case you haven't picked up on it yet, the droag have been breeding drakes here. Every drake the dragons get is another weapon of war to some day be used against the aviaks. I think long term, if you recall. My gnome friend has come up with a device that will help aviaks in the long run."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"What device?"</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"The gnome called it an Organo-Synthetic Egg Diagnosticator. I have no idea what the significance of that name is, but I do know what the device does."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"And that is?"</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"The drakes being hatched here serve two purposes, Lonissa. First, they will serve as warriors. And second, they will help to create future batches of drake eggs. My gnome friend has come up with a method to poison that process. This device can be used on a mature drake egg and it will inject it with... well I don't know what it injects it with. The end result, however, is amazing."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"What is the end result?"</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"From these hatched eggs emerge fully functional drakes. From their eggs the same will occur. It isn't until four or five generations that the alterations will become apparent. The effect leaves any future drakes unable to produce offspring. Because it is <FONT color=#ff0000>hereditary </FONT>prior to its activation it will spread for quite some time before it will ever be noticed. The dragons will continue to breed their drake army, possibly for many more years to come, but eventually it will stop."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"What will happen then?"</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"My people will free themselves from their future enslavement."</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"And you really believe everything will go off without a hitch?"</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>Taer Felwind says to you,"Of course not, nothing ever goes like it is intended. But I do believe it will work enough to make a difference for my people, and that is what I care about. Will you help or not?"</FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6666ff>You say to Taer Felwind,"I will help."</FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup that little red marked word is what made me think that they know about genetics.<BR>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Heh, just because some NPC in a game calls it something, doesn't mean that that's what it is.  Truth of the matter, genetics, in some instances, is a very complicated subject.  I'm no geneticist, but while going through my head of possible things that could help result to this end, I can only think of a limited few that would not have immediate results, and I'm not even clear on how those would exactly work.  Of course....I'm no gnome, so what do I know?</P> <P>Best way to make it so that a race eventually is unable to reproduce?  I would postulate that it might be able to be done by making one sex the dominant gene, that way you'll get more and more females, for instance, until there cease to be any males to throw out a Y chromosome.   Again, not sure if that is truly possible, but it is the best way I could think of.</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocturnal Abyss wrote:<BR> <P>Heh, just because some NPC in a game calls it something, doesn't mean that that's what it is.  Truth of the matter, genetics, in some instances, is a very complicated subject.  I'm no geneticist, but while going through my head of possible things that could help result to this end, I can only think of a limited few that would not have immediate results, and I'm not even clear on how those would exactly work.  Of course....I'm no gnome, so what do I know?</P> <P>Best way to make it so that a race eventually is unable to reproduce?  I would postulate that it might be able to be done by making one sex the dominant gene, that way you'll get more and more females, for instance, until there cease to be any males to throw out a Y chromosome.   Again, not sure if that is truly possible, but it is the best way I could think of.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well it actually works either way however there is one tiny problem and that is how do Drakes reproduce.  For Dragons yes there must be a Male and Female as we have seen aka Nagafen *Male* Vox *Female*.  However Drakes seem to be completely different since they are mearly breed for battle.</P> <P>There is one possible way that it could be done but would require a genetic level "Bomb".  This bomb would develop over a period of time till "BAM" it goes off this being where the Drake army's reproductive organs were completely destroyed.  Also in turn this possibly being connected with their ability/will to fight destroying that as well rendering the Drake army "Useless down the generation line." </P> <P>I studied genetics, heriditary traits as well as other numerous things when I was in Highschool then a bit when I was in college.  However this makes me an Amateure at best if I had to say anything about my knowledge on this subject.  I believe what the gnome did relies like I said on a "Genetic Bomb" that when a certain generation is produced it results in the "Genetic Bomb" going "BAM".  Atleast thats my take on it anyways :smileywink: .</P>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Yeah, I studied some genetics, biology, anatomy, and physiology (whole year of biology, plants and animals, though I did poorly when I stopped studying for tests, still loved the labs and the class, was thinking about being a geneticist), and have no idea what you mean by a "genetic bomb".  Do you have any examples?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nocturnal Aby]

Oh, and unless they reproduce asexually (which, in general, the most advanced animals that can reproduce this way is worms, slugs, mollusks, and the like), they still need male and female to reproduce.  Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the general anatomy of drakes and dragons are fairly similar, at the very least, in reproductive systems, as most reptiles are.

[i3ry]

Genetic bomb is the most intelligent thing I've ever read on the internet.<div></div>

[Ama]

<DIV>You'll have to forgive me because my mind is a little bit weird.  When I cannot comprehend something fully I will try to devise a term for it if there is not one made up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I refer to a "Genetic Bomb" I mean a bomb that is tied to the genetic hereditary trait of the said creature as well as the lineage of it.  Like a bomb the "Genetic Time Bomb" I guess I should clarrify will go off after a period of time or to get technical after a said number of Generations occur.  I hate to go too deeply because I fear this post being shut down being turned into a religious post but since its a game lore I shouldn't fear it too much. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just like RL Darwinism has distinctive traits that are considered beneficial traits.  While this infectious "Genetic Time Bomb" isn't a beneficial trait it is "Humanoid" made so that the drakes genetic structure considers it beneficial thus it is passed down.  This creates a stagnating pond effect where eventually the drakes will become weakened and no longer able to reproduce. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you wanted actual prove of this with a slight comparison look back at the days of old.  I'm talking way way way back into medival times where you had I believe what was called "Kings Disease".  It was a genetic/Hereditary disorder that happened because royalty married into themselves until you sickeningly had Brother marrying sister almost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This "Genetic Time Bomb" could be the same result except it was manufactured into the drakes.  I won't go any deeper because it requires 10x more knowledge than I have at my disposal atm.  However As stated I do believe the genetic bomb follows that lineage where on purpose a deffective trait is passed along circumventing somekind of check and balance system.  Thus you will have drakes that cannot reproduce and are unable to fight as a result of it.</DIV>