Power of Dragons

[Ama]

<DIV>There is alot of talk going on since the arrival of KoS.  We now have witnessed the power of 8 dragons, 5 from the Overrealm with the last 3 being Nagafen the fire dragon of Solusek's Eye, the ghostly Ice Dragon Lady Vox and the departed *or alive* Darathar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I am puzzled by some creatures that I have found/encountered in my ventures into the Overrealm.  This puzzling little detail is the power of the dragons themselves and how they gain this power.   One creature that I encountered that i'm very curious about is "A Blackscale Dracomancer."  Does the "Dracomancer" title mean they can summon undead draconic foes that have long since passed?   Also if Nagafen is the dragon of fire and Vox was/is the dragon of ice does that mean the other dragons have powers similar to, equal to, or even more powerful than those two?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>***Update***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to tip my hat to all who gave their input with what knowledge they had about Dragons.  Bellow you will find a compilation of the data that was given with some minor Details.  I will also continue to research some more lore about the mystical Dragon Kind that lives within the realm of Everquest and its timespan.  We must also not forget that the "Power of Dragons" doesn't just mean dragon themselves but can include Dragon Kind as well such as Drakota, Droags, Drakes and to a lesser extent the lowely Wurm/Wyrm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Dragons Themselves:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Venekor: Poison</DIV> <DIV>Darathar: Fire</DIV> <DIV>Nagafen: Fire</DIV> <DIV>Vox: Ice</DIV> <DIV>Talendor: Fire</DIV> <DIV>Gorenair: Ice</DIV> <DIV>Harla Dar: ?</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zlandicar <FONT size=2>(DN only necromancer class dragon in EQ1 -outcast-)</FONT> - Disease based attack<BR>Sontalak <FONT size=2>(Western Wastes guards ToV ent -CoV-)</FONT> - Lava breath based attack<BR>Esorpa of The Ring<FONT size=2> (Western Wastes -RoS-)</FONT> - silence aoe attack<BR>Klandicar <FONT size=2>(Western Wastes -CoV-) </FONT>- frost based attack<BR>Lord Yelinak <FONT size=2>(Leader of CoV faction in Skyshrine)</FONT> - frost based attack<BR>Wuoshi <FONT size=2>(Waking Lands -CoV-)</FONT> - Poison based<BR>Severilous <FONT size=2>(Emerald Jungle -RoS-)</FONT> - Poison based attack<BR>Aarin`Dar <FONT size=2>(Plane of Valor)</FONT> - Looks identical to Kerafyrm, but is considered a glass dragon. Magic based attack<BR>Rydda`Dar <FONT size=2>(Halls of Honor)</FONT><BR>Druushk <FONT size=2>(Veeshan's Peak -RoS-)</FONT> - Lightning based attack<BR>Hoshkar - <FONT size=2>(Veeshan's Peak -RoS-) </FONT>- Disease based attack<BR>Xygoz <FONT size=2>(Veeshan's Peak -RoS-)</FONT><BR>Suled`Dar's Shade <FONT size=2>(Skyfire Mnts -RoS-)</FONT> - Electricity based attack<BR>Vulak`Aerr <FONT size=2>(Leader of Temple of Veeshan -CoV-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Kerafyrm: Prismatic Class (elements?)</DIV> <DIV>Siyamak: Ice (Silver Color) *Maybe Diseased Based*</DIV> <DIV>Barakah: Fire (Gold Color)</DIV> <DIV>Young Dragon: Magic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Halls of fate</FONT><BR>-------------<BR>Sothis<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>KoS Spire event</FONT><BR>---------------<BR>Lashka<BR>Ordanach<BR>Exenka<BR>Phuertix<BR>Netshiava<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Lab of lord Vyemm</FONT><BR>-----------------<BR>Vyemm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Sanctum of the Scaleborn</FONT></DIV> <DIV>-----------------</DIV> <DIV>Cyanderos</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Palace of the awakened</FONT><BR>----------------------<BR>Drakknair</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Ravasect isle - Bonemire</FONT><BR>------------------------<BR>Do'Ellin</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Lavastorm</FONT><BR>---------<BR>Xyfl</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Temple of Scale</FONT><BR>---------------<BR>Harla Dar<BR>Vraksakin<BR>Pantrilla</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Ascent of the Awakened</FONT><BR>----------------------<BR>Talendor<BR>Gorenair<BR>Ireth</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Deathtoll</FONT><BR>-------<BR>Tarinax</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQOA/Frontiers Dragons</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>*Interesting Note from Moorguard:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Though not seen in any location currently accessible in our Norrath, the impact of Toxxulia's presence has been felt by those who have encountered her wayward child. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>*</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Vox</DIV> <DIV>Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Skahyir - Located in Box Canyons (the desert dragon you mentioned), lightning-based.</DIV> <DIV>Siliskor - Spawned in Elephant Graveyard via a glitchy quest, disease-based I think.</DIV> <DIV>Toxxulia - Located in one of the Toxxulia zones, believe it or not. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0>Never fought her, but by the name I assume she's poisonous.</DIV> <DIV>Noroxus - On Plane of Disease. Never fought him either, but given the loc I'd guess he's disease/poison.</DIV> <DIV>Quintessence of Veeshan - On Plane of Sky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300ff><STRONG>Dragon Types:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3300ff></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Earth</DIV> <DIV>Wind</DIV> <DIV>Fire</DIV> <DIV>water *ice*</DIV> <DIV>Disease</DIV> <DIV>Poison</DIV> <DIV>Sky</DIV> <DIV>Storm</DIV> <DIV>Prismatic-The forbidden mating of 2 opposing elemental types aka Fire+Ice=Prismatic Nagafen/Vox's Forbidden mating.  Kerafyrm is the only known prismatic at the time with his parents being 2 opposing elements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is also a bit of lore behind the Storm or sky dragon *I believe Stormm dragon*.  It is said that if 2 Storm Dragons are born into the world and they learn of each other 1 must kill the other.  The reason being not more than 1 storm dragon can exist within the world of Norrath. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again thankyou to everyone that put forth their knowledge about these creatures.   This upfront knowledge is a small compilation of the general knowledge that we have.  There is alot of interesting discussions going on about Kerafyrm, the Dragon Skeleton in Lavastorm as well as other dragon kind that has existed/does exist in the EverQuest timeline.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300ff></FONT> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Amana on <span class=date_text>05-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 AM</span>

[Dreadfie]

The suffix -mancer means magician. The prefix necro- means "the dead" so necromancer is magician of the dead. Another example of the mancer suffix is in geomancer - earth (or elemental) magician.With that in mind, dracomancer means dragon (draco) magacian.<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR>The suffix -mancer means magician. The prefix necro- means "the dead" so necromancer is magician of the dead. Another example of the mancer suffix is in geomancer - earth (or elemental) magician.<BR><BR>With that in mind, dracomancer means dragon (draco) magacian.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm pretty sure that the suffix of Mancer ment Diviner and Controller, which is more than just being a magician.</P> <P>Anyway. Don't read to much into certain mob's names and stuff. It doesn't necissarily mean anything other than just sounding fancy.</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR>The suffix -mancer means magician. The prefix necro- means "the dead" so necromancer is magician of the dead. Another example of the mancer suffix is in geomancer - earth (or elemental) magician.<BR><BR>With that in mind, dracomancer means dragon (draco) magacian.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm pretty sure that the suffix of Mancer ment Diviner and Controller, which is more than just being a magician.</P> <P>Anyway. Don't read to much into certain mob's names and stuff. It doesn't necissarily mean anything other than just sounding fancy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That maybe true however i'm still wondering about Nagafen and Vox vs the Kingdom of Sky Dragons.   Do they also have elemental type powers or is it only Nagafen and Vox that have this power?  I know about the lore behind them however so i'm not completely in the dark.  I do know that Nagafen and Lady Vox were sealed away because the Ring of Scale feared the power of the prismatic dragon that might emerge if 2 elemental dragons mated *opposing elemental dragons I presume*. <BR>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Yeah all the dragons all generally have a certain element, and USUALLY thier own physical appearance reflects this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Venekor is Poison</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Darathar is Fire</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nagafen is Fire</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vox is Ice</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talendor is Fire</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gorenair is Ice</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harla Dar is... I can't remember which one she is but she seems to be weak against mental damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kerafyrm doesn't have one. He's just purely physical.</DIV>

[RatWithGun]

<DIV>Kerafyrm is a Prismatic dragon, a child of opposing elemental dragons such matings are strictly forbidden because the offspring would have the powers of both its parents. That is why Kerafyrm was imprisoned in a deep unwaking sleep (aka the sleeper) because he was deemed uncontrollable.</DIV>

[MoD1133]

<DIV>Nagafen and Vox are dragons whose elements are fire and ice and there are many other dragons with these elements also.</DIV> <DIV>There are many different elements such as fire, ice, earth, water, air and poison.</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Nagafen and Vox are dragons whose elements are fire and ice and there are many other dragons with these elements also.</DIV> <DIV>There are many different elements such as fire, ice, earth, water, air and poison.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Now the question is do these dragons grow into their powers or is it something that Veeshan bestowed upon her children when she first seeded the world with them? </P> <P>I'm also wondering if there are elemental type dragons that exist beyond these abilities.  Kerafyrm as said was a prismatic dragon so maybe he has the power of fire and ice along with physical attributes.  But what i'm truely curious about is what I said before with abilities existing beyond elemental types.  Maybe there are dragons out there with the powers of our obelisk people with the power to open rift portals who have dark power abilities.  </P>

[MoD1133]

<P>Dragons are born with there element, they don't have to grow into there powers as far as i know.</P> <P>As far as other elements go besides the ones i said in my previous post, there is one more called a "storm dragon". Only one storm dragon can ever exist , their can never be more then one storm dragon. If another storm dragon is born which would be very rare, then one of them would kill the other and continue there existence like it was meant to be with only one storm dragon in existence. </P> <P>The storm dragon on Norrath was Vyskudra. She had killed the other storm dragons to survive, and when Kerafyrm came to power she went to his side with her father Kildrukaun, they became the Ancients of the sleeper and she infused with the power of Kerafyrm.</P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>I've never heard of a storm dragon before in all of EQlive. Or that name before for that matter. Where'd you find that out?</DIV>

[MoD1133]

This is all lore from the Crusaders of Veeshan in Skyshrine and various other NPCs in Skyshrine, and the sleepers tomb/kerafyrms lair.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Hmm. Guess I never looked for that little detail.</DIV>

[Kindayr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah all the dragons all generally have a certain element, and USUALLY thier own physical appearance reflects this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Venekor is Poison</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Poor Venekor, being the only important poison dragon, it must be hard to find a mate. Plus the bones probally turn the women off.

[Dreadfie]

More, but not all notable EQ1 dragons:Zlandicar <font size="2">(DN only necromancer class dragon in EQ1 -outcast-)</font> - Disease based attackSontalak <font size="2">(Western Wastes guards ToV ent -CoV-)</font> - Lava breath based attackEsorpa of The Ring<font size="2"> (Western Wastes -RoS-)</font> - silence aoe attackKlandicar <font size="2">(Western Wastes -CoV-) </font>- frost based attackLord Yelinak <font size="2">(Leader of CoV faction in Skyshrine)</font> - frost based attackWuoshi <font size="2">(Waking Lands -CoV-)</font> - Poison basedSeverilous <font size="2">(Emerald Jungle -RoS-)</font> - Poison based attackAarin`Dar <font size="2">(Plane of Valor)</font> - Looks identical to Kerafyrm, but is considered a glass dragon. Magic based attackRydda`Dar <font size="2">(Halls of Honor)</font>Druushk <font size="2">(Veeshan's Peak -RoS-)</font> - Lightning based attackHoshkar - <font size="2">(Veeshan's Peak -RoS-) </font>- Disease based attackXygoz <font size="2">(Veeshan's Peak -RoS-)</font>Suled`Dar's Shade <font size="2">(Skyfire Mnts -RoS-)</font> - Electricity based attackVulak`Aerr <font size="2">(Leader of Temple of Veeshan -CoV-)</font><div></div>

[Bleedingheart]

        There are the 2 dragons in the Desert of Flame as well. What were they? gold and silver? I never encountered them so I don't know what type of "element" they would be a part of. A little off topic here but would it be possible that there are "metalic" dragons out there somewhere(i.e. golds,silvers,coppers,irons)? And would they be good,evil,neutral? Also what about any "gem" dragons(i.e. amethyst,pearl,onyx)? These are little of the D n'D bent but just curious if there are any out there or even mentioned in some lost lore.

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleedingheart wrote:<BR>         There are the 2 dragons in the Desert of Flame as well. What were they? gold and silver? I never encountered them so I don't know what type of "element" they would be a part of. A little off topic here but would it be possible that there are "metalic" dragons out there somewhere(i.e. golds,silvers,coppers,irons)? And would they be good,evil,neutral? Also what about any "gem" dragons(i.e. amethyst,pearl,onyx)? These are little of the D n'D bent but just curious if there are any out there or even mentioned in some lost lore.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The two dragons in the Desert of Flames are Siyamak the silver dragon who is ice elemental, and Barakah who has the element of fire. </P> <P>Theres almost no such thing as evil dragon alliances, or neutral, or good because it depends on what there own beliefs are, because when the second generation were first created the dragons had a long argument about whether they should control them or not, and one side just wanted to let them be and the other side wanted to control them as there pawns. They eventually had a split in the dragon faction with the original faction called the Claws of Veeshan and the new faction called the Ring of Scale led by Jaled Dar. It was not a war between the dragons it was just a difference in their own beliefs. </P> <P>The Ring of Scale was the more noisy faction on Norrath while the Claws of Veeshan were more quiet and spent most of there time praying to Veeshan.</P> <P>So you can probably consider the Claws of Veeshan the neutral Dragons, the Ring of Scale the semi evil dragons, The 4 Ancients the purely evil dragons who want to do nothing but exterminate the second generation with there Master Kerafyrm the sleeper, and the good dragons the 4 crusaders of Veeshan who were suppose to be the next 4 warders to keep Kerafyrm sleeping but because of the actions of the second generation there role had changed greatly and they became known as the Crusaders of Veeshan and there probably the only thing right now trying to fight the Awakened.</P><p>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 AM</span>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bleedingheart wrote:<BR>         There are the 2 dragons in the Desert of Flame as well. What were they? gold and silver? I never encountered them so I don't know what type of "element" they would be a part of. A little off topic here but would it be possible that there are "metalic" dragons out there somewhere(i.e. golds,silvers,coppers,irons)? And would they be good,evil,neutral? Also what about any "gem" dragons(i.e. amethyst,pearl,onyx)? These are little of the D n'D bent but just curious if there are any out there or even mentioned in some lost lore.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The two dragons in the Desert of Flames are Siyamak the silver dragon who is ice elemental, and Barakah who has the element of fire. </P> <P>Theres almost no such thing as evil dragon alliances, or neutral, or good because it depends on what there own beliefs are, because when the second generation were first created the dragons had a long argument about whether they should control them or not, and one side just wanted to let them be and the other side wanted to control them as there pawns. They eventually had a split in the dragon faction with the original faction called the Claws of Veeshan and the new faction called the Ring of Scale led by Jaled Dar. It was not a war between the dragons it was just a difference in their own beliefs. </P> <P>The Ring of Scale was the more noisy faction on Norrath while the Claws of Veeshan were more quiet and spent most of there time praying to Veeshan.</P> <P>So you can probably consider the Claws of Veeshan the neutral Dragons, the Ring of Scale the semi evil dragons, The 4 Ancients the purely evil dragons who want to do nothing but exterminate the second generation with there Master Kerafyrm the sleeper, and the good dragons the 4 crusaders of Veeshan who were suppose to be the next 4 warders to keep Kerafyrm sleeping but because of the actions of the second generation there role had changed greatly and they became known as the Crusaders of Veeshan and there probably the only thing right now trying to fight the Awakened.</P> <P>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now this is getting rather interesting and very elaborate beyond what I had thought of. </P> <P>One thing I never knew about was the storm dragon class and that only one storm dragon can exist.  Its almost like the insect/wolf/lion world where there can only be 1 high ruler and if another one comes they must battle but to the death.  </P> <P>KoS is a very odd brewing pot for the dragon lore because we have 5 dragons to contend with.  4 of them lie in scattered zones with the might Taranax the guardian of Death Toll.   </P> <P>The question is what would happen if Kerafyrm were to come back to Norrath.  He has emense power and it seems even Lord Nagafen fears this power.   But 1 question is how did Kerafyrm come about?  If he is a true prismatic dragon then was it by Queen Veeshan's claws that he was created as her right hand person or did 2 opposing dragons mate to create him? <BR></P>

[MoD1133]

Kerafyrm was the offspring of two dragons of opposing elements, who mated despite what the Elder Dragon Council and Kildrukaun said.

[MakhailSamma]

<P>Siyamak is actually disease based and has SK buffs abilities.</P> <P>At least in PoS and the contested one.</P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <P>Siyamak is actually disease based and has SK buffs abilities.</P> <P>At least in PoS and the contested one.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Siyamak is diseased based because hes probably a SK class, but in PoS he was hitting us for cold damage, class has nothing to do with a dragons element. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <P>Siyamak is actually disease based and has SK buffs abilities.</P> <P>At least in PoS and the contested one.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Siyamak is diseased based because hes probably a SK class, but in PoS he was hitting us for cold damage, class has nothing to do with a dragons element. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:10 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What about the young dragon in Kingdom of Sky as well as the two dragons within Palace of the Awakened? Thanks for the info about kerafyrm MoD I thought that he/it was primarily Veeshans right hand person along with the priest.  My thinking was Veeshan created him but as you say that is not so and he was born through natural means or unnatural since he is prismatic being of 2 opposing elements.  I'll have to do some digging and find out who Kerafyrm's parents were. </P> <P>Right now Kerafyrm hasn't made his presence known in the overrealm but I have a feeling that will change.   Like someone said look was some odd hundred years has done to naggy, it would be inconcievable to think how powerful Kerafyrm is right now.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Amana on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:02 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Lightning based attacks falls under Magic, which is what the Young Dragon is.</DIV>

[Azarphan]

<P>Does anyone remember the video that played at the beginning of the very first EQ release.  It has interesting but potentially conflicting lore with both the original story line in the box product manual and present lore.  It claims that Veeshan not only seeded Norrath with dragon kind but life it self.  I will dig it out and have a look but I am certain that Veeshan was credited with the creation of "all" life.  </P> <P>Which brings out an interesting question where is she now?</P>

[troodon]

<DIV>Yeah, it says she "deposited life onto a lifeless planet".</DIV><p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Jait]

<DIV>The life that Veeshan created was Dragon/Dragonkin life.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brell came later through the underfoot and deposited his first race of mortals.  Then invited the Gods to do the same.  Well some of them.  Inny came later =0</DIV>

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jait wrote:<BR> <DIV>The life that Veeshan created was Dragon/Dragonkin life. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Mmm, not much for dragons to do there if it's a "lifeless" planet.  You need to see the movie to get it.  Veeshan strikes the planet and it's enveloped in flame, turning into a living world.</P>

[Jait]

I've seen the movie many, many times.  Read my entire post to understand the context....<p>Message Edited by Jait on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 PM</span>

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jait wrote:<BR> I've seen the movie many, many times.  Read my entire post to understand the context.... <P>Message Edited by Jait on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do you think I didn't read all 5 sentences of your post (if you can call the latter 3 sentences, they're actually fragments incorrectly punctuated)?</P> <P>I can only assume, since you did not care to elaborate, that the context you're referring to is the fact that Veeshan did not create the other great races of Norrath.  That's true, but your claim "the life that Veeshan created was Dragon/Dragonkin life" is still only partly correct.  Veeshan did create dragon life (of course), but according to the video she also created much more life than that; a point which you seem to concede.  I believe it was this life that Azarphan was referring to, rather than the sentient, mortal, player races of Norrath.</P> <P>Of course, I could be wrong :smileyhappy:</P>

[Dreadfie]

The series of murals that can be found in EQ1's revamped Veeshan's Peak shows Norrath as a dark, dead looking world prior to the scarring. Then Veeshan is shown slashing the planet with her claws (she is shown to be about as large as Norrath itself). Then another shows the entire planet undergoing a metamorphic change where the surface is covered in flames. The last shows Norrath as it looks now.That shows that Veeshan seeded the planet with the biological ingredients for the flora and fauna to evolve. Veeshan gave life to a dead world and the other gods simply placed their own races onto the already thriving planet. Veeshan might not have even done it for any other reason than to give her children a nice place to live and food in the way of fauna in which to eat. The other gods just took advantage of it.It can be argued that given the location of the murals, they might be biased in their depiction of the creation of life, but the dragons above all others have the longevity to be able to know that sort of lore. The murals don't contradict the story lore of the gods doing little more than placing their own races within Norrath howvever, so I beleive it's accurate.<div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR>The series of murals that can be found in EQ1's revamped Veeshan's Peak shows Norrath as a dark, dead looking world prior to the scarring. Then Veeshan is shown slashing the planet with her claws (she is shown to be about as large as Norrath itself). Then another shows the entire planet undergoing a metamorphic change where the surface is covered in flames. The last shows Norrath as it looks now.<BR><BR>That shows that Veeshan seeded the planet with the biological ingredients for the flora and fauna to evolve. Veeshan gave life to a dead world and the other gods simply placed their own races onto the already thriving planet. Veeshan might not have even done it for any other reason than to give her children a nice place to live and food in the way of fauna in which to eat. The other gods just took advantage of it.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>It can be argued that given the location of the murals, they might be biased in their depiction of the creation of life</FONT>, but the dragons above all others have the longevity to be able to know that sort of lore. The murals don't contradict the story lore of the gods doing little more than placing their own races within Norrath howvever, so I beleive it's accurate.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well i'm not a pure loreist of EQII but i'm interested in it enough that I have studied it.   I do agree with one of your statements dreadfiend but not with the other parts.  I do think that a self-centered race of being like the Droag/Dragon kind would depict it so that their great god/goddess/diety was the being that started life on the planet.  However it is possible that Veeshan did start a chain reaction to a point where the world became hospitable for other lifeforms.  This being noticed by gods of norrath and them placing their own races amongst norrath. </P> <P>However my theory probably coinsides with your theory because if you really go indepth yes Veeshan could have started life on Norrath with the slashing of her claws "aka Mark of Veeshan".  This heating/warming the planet allowing for as you say flora and fauna to prosper on this once inhospitable planet. <BR></P>

[KidMangaX]

<DIV>A Dracomancer is basically a summoner who didn't want to take necro/conj classes and decided to study draconic lore instead. Basically, they are summoners who can summon dragons (not dead ones, those are for necros) to obey them, parts of dragons to harm the enemy (like a storm of dragon fangs or something), can BECOME half dragons (or full dragons if they are more powerful), and are oftentimes part dragonic/reptilian to begin with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I don't like the term Dracomancer being used in this game because not only do the "dracomancers" not posses these draconic powers, but rather they posses mage/summoner spells! And on top of that, its confusing to people because I bet half of you are saying "Well if a draog can be a dracomancer maybe theres a hidden quest to become one!" WRONG!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also find some other terms confusing, such as "A Draconic Homonculus"...A Homonculus is either a baby-sized human created from a mandragora or its an artificial human made in a lab (NOT NOT NOT A CLONE!) ......in this game, a homonculus is apparently a baby-sized gargoyle created in the twisted minds of the devs >.> PICK ONE SOE!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See? This game contains alot of misleading content Amana, and thats why SOE decides they want to make things so confusing noone UNDER the rated-t-for-teen rating is going to want to play. Bravo SOE, you've done it again</DIV>

[KidMangaX]

<P>oh and by the way, the dragons of old (nagafen, vox, kerafym, galedor, etc etc...) HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AMANA'S QUESTION! Im pretty sure she asked if Dracomancers can summon undead dragons (no they can't) and if the other dragons were better then nagafen and vox (not nagafen at least). Not wether it was illegal for 2 dragons to mate, or whatever you are all talking about. In fact, I don't even think there's a single person who even answered the first question on the whole first page.</P> <P> </P> <P>God.....lore junkies :smileymad:</P>

[KidMangaX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR>The series of murals that can be found in EQ1's revamped Veeshan's Peak shows Norrath as a dark, dead looking world prior to the scarring. Then Veeshan is shown slashing the planet with her claws (she is shown to be about as large as Norrath itself). Then another shows the entire planet undergoing a metamorphic change where the surface is covered in flames. The last shows Norrath as it looks now.<BR><BR>That shows that Veeshan seeded the planet with the biological ingredients for the flora and fauna to evolve. Veeshan gave life to a dead world and the other gods simply placed their own races onto the already thriving planet. Veeshan might not have even done it for any other reason than to give her children a nice place to live and food in the way of fauna in which to eat. The other gods just took advantage of it.<BR><BR>It can be argued that given the location of the murals, they might be biased in their depiction of the creation of life, but the dragons above all others have the longevity to be able to know that sort of lore. The murals don't contradict the story lore of the gods doing little more than placing their own races within Norrath howvever, so I beleive it's accurate.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Insightful yes, but lets face it: THAT HAS ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION! ((ok Im tired....))

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KidMangaX wrote:<BR> <P>oh and by the way, the dragons of old (nagafen, vox, kerafym, galedor, etc etc...) HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AMANA'S QUESTION! Im pretty sure she asked if Dracomancers can summon undead dragons (no they can't) and if the other dragons were better then nagafen and vox (not nagafen at least). Not wether it was illegal for 2 dragons to mate, or whatever you are all talking about. In fact, I don't even think there's a single person who even answered the first question on the whole first page.</P> <P> </P> <P>God.....lore junkies :smileymad:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>whoa dude chill ok I asked about the "Power of Dragons" meaning not just the Dracomancers.   I wanted to know what the entire scope was of dragon kind not just about the Droags calling themselves Dracomancers.   I'm glad other people shared what they knew about Kerafyrm, Veeshan, Nagafen, Vox, Venecor as well as a slew of other dragons that exist in EQII and existed in EQ1.  </P> <P>Also FYI i'm a guy not a girl :smileywink: .  I wanted the name Amani but couldn't have it so I chose Amana *Amani the name of a wolf I sponsored when I was a kid*. </P>

[MoD1133]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KidMangaX wrote:<BR> <P>oh and by the way, the dragons of old (nagafen, vox, kerafym, galedor, etc etc...) HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AMANA'S QUESTION! Im pretty sure she asked if Dracomancers can summon undead dragons (no they can't) and if the other dragons were better then nagafen and vox (not nagafen at least). Not wether it was illegal for 2 dragons to mate, or whatever you are all talking about. In fact, I don't even think there's a single person who even answered the first question on the whole first page.</P> <P> </P> <P>God.....lore junkies :smileymad:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>READ THE WHOLE POST FOOL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A personal question for you, did you ride the short yellow bus to school?</DIV><p>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KidMangaX wrote:<BR> <DIV>A Dracomancer is basically a summoner who didn't want to take necro/conj classes and decided to study draconic lore instead. Basically, they are summoners who can summon dragons (not dead ones, those are for necros) to obey them, parts of dragons to harm the enemy (like a storm of dragon fangs or something), can BECOME half dragons (or full dragons if they are more powerful), and are oftentimes part dragonic/reptilian to begin with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I don't like the term Dracomancer being used in this game because not only do the "dracomancers" not posses these draconic powers, but rather they posses mage/summoner spells! And on top of that, <FONT color=#0000ff>its confusing to people because I bet half of you are saying "Well if a draog can be a dracomancer maybe theres a hidden quest to become one!" WRONG!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also find some other terms confusing, such as "A Draconic Homonculus"...A Homonculus is either a baby-sized human created from a mandragora or its an artificial human made in a lab (NOT NOT NOT A CLONE!) ......in this game, a homonculus is apparently a baby-sized gargoyle created in the twisted minds of the devs >.> PICK ONE SOE!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See? This game contains alot of misleading content Amana, and thats why SOE decides they want to make things so confusing noone UNDER the rated-t-for-teen rating is going to want to play. Bravo SOE, you've done it again</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is one of the MOST stupidest things i have ever heard.<BR>

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>KidMangaX wrote:<div></div> <p>oh and by the way, the dragons of old (nagafen, vox, kerafym, galedor, etc etc...) HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AMANA'S QUESTION! </p><hr></blockquote>Reading 101:<hr size="2" width="100%">Amana wrote:That maybe true however i'm still wondering about Nagafen and Vox vs the Kingdom of Sky Dragons.   Do they also have elemental type powers or is it only Nagafen and Vox that have this power?  I know about the lore behind them however so i'm not completely in the dark.  I do know that Nagafen and Lady Vox were sealed away because the Ring of Scale feared the power of the prismatic dragon that might emerge if 2 elemental dragons mated *opposing elemental dragons I presume*.<hr size="2" width="100%">KidMangaX, that was just the third post into the thread and Anama's first reply to his own thread. He asked questions about general dragon lore and we had a nice little discusion going before you started swinging your caps lock around. Try reading the thread before you start throwing your attitude around. If you don't like lore junkies (I'll use caps since you seem to like that) THEN STAY OUT OF THE LORE BOARDS.God.... idiots <span>:smileymad:</span></div>

[Dreadfie]

<div></div>I've uploaded the pictures that show the 6 creation scenes from EQ1's Veeshan's Peak.<a href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath1.jpg" target="_blank">Birth of Norrath 01</a><a href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath2.jpg" target="_blank">Birth of Norrath 02</a>It's interesting where it shows her actually clawing the planet... the northern hemisphere, if one is to assume that the north pole is at the top in the picture.If the southern pole is "at the top" so that she's actually upside down, then that's about where Velious would be give or take a few hundred miles. hehe If not, then she's clawing Antonica or Fadywer.<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dreadfiend on <span class=date_text>04-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> I've uploaded the pictures that show the 6 creation scenes from EQ1's Veeshan's Peak.<BR><BR><A href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath1.jpg" target=_blank>Birth of Norrath 01</A><BR><BR><A href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath2.jpg" target=_blank>Birth of Norrath 02</A><BR><BR>It's interesting where it shows her actually clawing the planet... the northern hemisphere, if one is to assume that the north pole is at the top in the picture.<BR>If the southern pole is "at the top" so that she's actually upside down, then that's about where Velious would be give or take a few hundred miles. hehe If not, then she's clawing Antonica or Fadywer.<SPAN></SPAN><BR> <P>Message Edited by Dreadfiend on <SPAN class=date_text>04-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But there is no such thing as Up or Down in space, so it's all a matter of perspective. :p</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway nice catch. The images from the original Everquest opening movie with the 1997 pixelated graphics. lol.</P>

[SadistiKPopsiKle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> I've uploaded the pictures that show the 6 creation scenes from EQ1's Veeshan's Peak.<BR><BR><A href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath1.jpg" target=_blank>Birth of Norrath 01</A><BR><BR><A href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath2.jpg" target=_blank>Birth of Norrath 02</A><BR><BR>It's interesting where it shows her actually clawing the planet... the northern hemisphere, if one is to assume that the north pole is at the top in the picture.<BR>If the southern pole is "at the top" so that she's actually upside down, then that's about where Velious would be give or take a few hundred miles. hehe If not, then she's clawing Antonica or Fadywer.<SPAN></SPAN><BR> <P>Message Edited by Dreadfiend on <SPAN class=date_text>04-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Remember there is no up or down in space.  It's just perspective.  It looks like a lifeless planet with no features so you cant really tell what is what.  So it could just as easily be the southern hemisphere of the planet.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Wow you got there like 2 seconds before me <STRONG><FONT color=#3366ff>Cusashorn saying the same thing lol.  Crazy.</FONT></STRONG></P><p>Message Edited by SadistiKPopsiKle on <span class=date_text>04-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SadistiKPopsiKle wrote:<BR> <BR>Remember there is no up or down in space.  It's just perspective.  It looks like a lifeless planet with no features so you cant really tell what is what.  So it could just as easily be the southern hemisphere of the planet.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>*looks at the time of our posts*</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>.... woah.</P>

[Ama]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote: I've uploaded the pictures that show the 6 creation scenes from EQ1's Veeshan's Peak. <A href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath1.jpg" target=_blank>Birth of Norrath 01</A> <A href="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/Dreadfiend/BirthofNorrath2.jpg" target=_blank>Birth of Norrath 02</A> It's interesting where it shows her actually clawing the planet... the northern hemisphere, if one is to assume that the north pole is at the top in the picture. If the southern pole is "at the top" so that she's actually upside down, then that's about where Velious would be give or take a few hundred miles. hehe If not, then she's clawing Antonica or Fadywer.<SPAN></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Dreadfiend on <SPAN class=date_text>04-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:50 PM</SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Very Nice Dreadfiend I do wish I had encoutered stuff like this in EQOA.  EQOA lore is very very weird and the only dragons that were encountered in EQOA were Nagafen, Lady Vox, 1 desert dragon and 1 or 2 more in the Frontiers area.  Sadly <a href="http://everquestonlineadventures.station.sony.com/content.vm?page=Lore" target=_blank>this</a> is the only lore that exists on the EQOA page.  I'll go in game and see if I can get any info on the dragons that exist within EQOA. </P> <P>The only thing I can assume with more than 50% of my knowledge is EQOA takes place 500 years before EQ1.  </P>

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Amana wrote:Very Nice Dreadfiend I do wish I had encoutered stuff like this in EQOA.  EQOA lore is very very weird and the only dragons that were encountered in EQOA were Nagafen, Lady Vox, 1 desert dragon and 1 or 2 more in the Frontiers area.  Sadly <a href="http://everquestonlineadventures.station.sony.com/content.vm?page=Lore" target="_blank">this</a> is the only lore that exists on the EQOA page.  I'll go in game and see if I can get any info on the dragons that exist within EQOA. <p>The only thing I can assume with more than 50% of my knowledge is EQOA takes place 500 years before EQ1.  </p><hr></blockquote>I don't think there would be many dragons "visible" to players in EQOA. Remember, before Ruins of Kunark and Scars of Velious were released, Nagafen and Vox<i> were</i> the only dragon known in EQ1. That only makes sense given the inaccesiblitly to both the dragon heavy lands of Kunark and Velious. Nothing was known about the Ring of Scale until RoK was released... and nothing was known about the "original" dragon faction, the Claws of Veeshan until Scars of Velious was released. That didn't change the fact that Naggy and Vox were still the only player reachable dragons in Antonica until Dragons of Norrath was released.The "Dragons of Norrath" expansion proved that there was a viable faction of dragons on Antonica who had lived behind a wall of secrecy for countless ages. That would be relevent to EQ2 because the Antonican dragon faction, Veeshan's Children was going on the whole time without the players knowing about it. That would mean that the VC dragon were around during EQOA, but hidden behind their wall.The DoN dragons are very asian looking when compared to the otherwise traditionally european dragons of RoS and CoV. They are very serpentine with distinctly "lung" style heads with catfish-like whiskers and manes.It would be interesting to know what happened to Veeshan's Children after the Rending. If they still exist, what part they have to play in the Awakened's plans?From the EQ1 Storyline folder:<hr size="2" width="100%">The Nest RevealedOver 4000 years ago when Veeshan's brood was beginning its days on Norrath, the dragons determined, among other things, that the Nest would be the breeding grounds for their kind.  It was also where five chosen dragons closest to the pure blood of Veeshan would carry on the Nest for all time and pass down their knowledge.  And thus, the dragons of the Nest became known as Veeshan's Children and those that serve them, the Servants of the Children. The dragons and creatures of the Nest began to build the foundations for this sacred area and found a way to hide it from meddling mortals.  Through their mastery of magic, the dragons took part in creating a veil of magic that draped over the land.  One dragon, Yar`Lir, a master of weather, obscured the veil of magic by storms.The laying of eggs and birth of new dragons in the Nest -- the ones that will carry on the Nest for all time -- are governed by a cycle.  Every thousand years, Veeshan's Children choose the eggs of the dragons that will replace them and acquire their knowledge.  And for 1000 years those eggs must be protected until they hatch, a time known as the Brood Dawn.  If the cycle is disturbed, the eggs of the metallic, storm, lava and shadow dragons, could become corrupted or worse.  The Brood Dawn must be allowed to take place, undisturbed.  Until now, the Nest has remained safe, but for a few intruders that found it in error -- and they quickly learned their mistake.On a day of ill fate, Norrathians' greed overtook their good sense and they unknowingly aided a dark and evil messenger -- the one who paid the miners of the Solusek Mining Company -- to dig deeper and farther to the north with the promise of untold riches. The Solusek Mining Company did break through the stone to the north with the help of Norrathians.  They broke through to the Nest and the veil of magic that protected it from view was breeched.  Tirranun, the dragon that lived in the fires of a volcano, brought rains of fire and destruction in Lavastorm, beating back those that attempted to disturb the Nest.  And while all of this occurred, a shadowy figure in long black robes slipped past the commotion and into the Broodlands.Now, the dragons are filled with rage and waiting for any who would dare approach them.  No one is safe from their wrath.<hr size="2" width="100%"></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR><BR>Very Nice Dreadfiend I do wish I had encoutered stuff like this in EQOA.  EQOA lore is very very weird and the only dragons that were encountered in EQOA were Nagafen, Lady Vox, 1 desert dragon and 1 or 2 more in the Frontiers area.  Sadly <A href="http://everquestonlineadventures.station.sony.com/content.vm?page=Lore" target=_blank>this</A> is the only lore that exists on the EQOA page.  I'll go in game and see if I can get any info on the dragons that exist within EQOA. <P>The only thing I can assume with more than 50% of my knowledge is EQOA takes place 500 years before EQ1.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think there would be many dragons "visible" to players in EQOA. Remember, before Ruins of Kunark and Scars of Velious were released, Nagafen and Vox<I> were</I> the only dragon known in EQ1. That only makes sense given the inaccesiblitly to both the dragon heavy lands of Kunark and Velious. Nothing was known about the Ring of Scale until RoK was released... and nothing was known about the "original" dragon faction, the Claws of Veeshan until Scars of Velious was released. That didn't change the fact that Naggy and Vox were still the only player reachable dragons in Antonica until Dragons of Norrath was released.<BR><BR>The "Dragons of Norrath" expansion proved that there was a viable faction of dragons on Antonica who had lived behind a wall of secrecy for countless ages. That would be relevent to EQ2 because the Antonican dragon faction, Veeshan's Children was going on the whole time without the players knowing about it. That would mean that the VC dragon were around during EQOA, but hidden behind their wall.<BR><BR>The DoN dragons are very asian looking when compared to the otherwise traditionally european dragons of RoS and CoV. They are very serpentine with distinctly "lung" style heads with catfish-like whiskers and manes.<BR><BR>It would be interesting to know what happened to Veeshan's Children after the Rending. If they still exist, what part they have to play in the Awakened's plans?<BR><BR><BR><BR>From the EQ1 Storyline folder:<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> The Nest Revealed<BR><BR>Over 4000 years ago when Veeshan's brood was beginning its days on Norrath, the dragons determined, among other things, that the Nest would be the breeding grounds for their kind.  It was also where five chosen dragons closest to the pure blood of Veeshan would carry on the Nest for all time and pass down their knowledge.  And thus, the dragons of the Nest became known as Veeshan's Children and those that serve them, the Servants of the Children. <BR><BR>The dragons and creatures of the Nest began to build the foundations for this sacred area and found a way to hide it from meddling mortals.  Through their mastery of magic, the dragons took part in creating a veil of magic that draped over the land.  One dragon, Yar`Lir, a master of weather, obscured the veil of magic by storms.<BR><BR>The laying of eggs and birth of new dragons in the Nest -- the ones that will carry on the Nest for all time -- are governed by a cycle.  Every thousand years, Veeshan's Children choose the eggs of the dragons that will replace them and acquire their knowledge.  And for 1000 years those eggs must be protected until they hatch, a time known as the Brood Dawn.  If the cycle is disturbed, the eggs of the metallic, storm, lava and shadow dragons, could become corrupted or worse.  The Brood Dawn must be allowed to take place, undisturbed.  Until now, the Nest has remained safe, but for a few intruders that found it in error -- and they quickly learned their mistake.<BR><BR>On a day of ill fate, Norrathians' greed overtook their good sense and they unknowingly aided a dark and evil messenger -- the one who paid the miners of the Solusek Mining Company -- to dig deeper and farther to the north with the promise of untold riches. <BR><BR>The Solusek Mining Company did break through the stone to the north with the help of Norrathians.  They broke through to the Nest and the veil of magic that protected it from view was breeched.  Tirranun, the dragon that lived in the fires of a volcano, brought rains of fire and destruction in Lavastorm, beating back those that attempted to disturb the Nest.  And while all of this occurred, a shadowy figure in long black robes slipped past the commotion and into the Broodlands.<BR><BR>Now, the dragons are filled with rage and waiting for any who would dare approach them.  No one is safe from their wrath.<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>One problem: Dragons of Norrath never happened in the EQ2 timeline. It was released AFTER EQ2 went live.

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div> One problem: Dragons of Norrath never happened in the EQ2 timeline. It was released AFTER EQ2 went live.<hr></blockquote>The expansion was released post PoP because that's when the Nest was finally revealed to the players, but if you read the text, the Nest and Children of Veeshan had been there for 4000 years basically giving it a grandfather clause into EQ2's history. Just because the players didn't know about it doesn't make it irrevelvent. The Nest and VC had existed for thousands of years whether the players found them or not.</div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR>One problem: Dragons of Norrath never happened in the EQ2 timeline. It was released AFTER EQ2 went live.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The expansion was released post PoP because that's when the Nest was finally revealed to the players, but if you read the text, the Nest and Children of Veeshan had been there for 4000 years basically giving it a grandfather clause into EQ2's history. Just because the players didn't know about it doesn't make it irrevelvent. The Nest and VC had existed for thousands of years whether the players found them or not.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmm this is particularly interesting since we have the "Ghostly Miners of Solusek's Eye".  I'm starting to wonder if the Nest may have been effected during "The Shattering" and was turned back in time as if mortals never discovered it or broke through to it.  However the Solusek miners were punished for breaking through and were punished so that they would never break through like a preventative measure. </P> <P>I think today since I have time i'll load up old EQOA and see if I can journey to DFC and beyond so I can find the Sand Dragon of the Desert.  There was also 2 dragons in the Frontiers expansion pack as I mentioned one being of a noxious element I believe.  <BR></P>

[xbraindeadx]

The list Bakarah      Siyamak      Venekor      Darathar     Nagafen          Vox             Talendor      Gorenair      Harla Dar     Kerafyrm      Anguis         Ladon           Firanvious    KrilagarrVyemmSothisVraksakinOrdanachDrakknairDo' EllinTarinaxIreth( I missed some of the spires ones i think but thats all i can think of )<div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xbraindeadx wrote:<BR>The list<BR> <BR>Bakarah      <BR><BR>Siyamak      <BR><BR>Venekor      <BR><BR>Darathar     <BR><BR>Nagafen          <BR><BR>Vox             <BR><BR>Talendor      <BR><BR>Gorenair      <BR><BR>Harla Dar     <BR><BR>Kerafyrm      <BR><BR>Anguis         <BR><BR>Ladon           <BR><BR>Firanvious    <BR><BR>Krilagarr<BR><BR>Vyemm<BR><BR>Sothis<BR><BR>Vraksakin<BR><BR>Ordanach<BR><BR>Drakknair<BR><BR>Do' Ellin<BR><BR>Tarinax<BR><BR>Ireth<BR><BR>( I missed some of the spires ones i think but thats all i can think of )<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thx for the list i'll be sure to put it up front in my main post so people know the names of all the dragons.  </P> <P>One name strikes me though and that is Anguis because he appears as a drakota in Antonica a level 23 epicx2.  Also Sothis seems to ring a bell for some reason as to why I don't know for certain. </P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Anguis and Ladon are drakota, not dragons.</DIV>

[Jal]

Just out of interest to make a list of where these are in game if at all, if you can please add the the list.Maj dul-------BarakhSiyamakCazic thule-----------VenekorIsle of refuge--------------DaratharSolusek Ro----------NagafenPermafrost----------VoxHalls of fate-------------SothisKoS Spire event---------------LashkaOrdanachExenkaPhuertixNetshiavaLab of lord Vyemm-----------------VyemmPalace of the awakened ----------------------DrakknairRavasect isle - Bonemire------------------------Do'EllinLavastorm---------XyflTemple of Scale---------------Harla DarVraksakinPantrillaAscent of the Awakened----------------------TalendorGorenairIrethDeathtoll-------Tarinax<p>Message Edited by Jalek on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Jalek wrote:Just out of interest to make a list of where these are in game if at all, if you can please add the the list.Maj dul dragons---------------Barakh Siyamak Cazic thule dragon (i think)------------------Venekor Isle of refuge--------------DaratharSolusek Ro----------Nagafen Permafrost---------- Vox Halls of fate-------------SothisKoS Spire event---------------LashkaOrdanachExenkaPhuertixNetshiavaLab of lord Vyemm-----------------VyemmPalace of the awakened (i think)----------------------DrakknairRavasect isle - Bonemire------------------------Do'EllinLavastorm---------XyflTemple of Scale---------------Harla Dar Unknown-------Talendor Gorenair Kerafyrm Firanvious KrilagarrVraksakinTarinaxIreth<hr></blockquote>Do'Ellin's spirit is found on Fear Tainted Isle in Tenerbrous, while Ghazi's Spirit is found on the Isle of Ravasect in the Bonemire. Vrakaskin and Pantrilla are both found in Temple of Scale, while Ireth, Gorenaire, Talendor, Sharti are found in Ascent of the Awakened. You can find Tarinax inside of Deathtoll. While Firanvious is a Drakota, not a dragon. Krilagarr? Doesn't sound like a familiar name, however there is at least 1 more dragon you can find in Palace of the Awakened, however I don't remember the name.Also you can find the spirit of Aaroynar in Palace of the Awakened, unkillable, but hailable and part of the Claymore quest line. Then we have Kerafyrm, where he is, nobody really knows. But that sums up the real list of where all the current dragons can be found.

[kennethlong]

What about the dragon in the Obelisk of Lost Souls zone?<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kennethlongjr wrote:<BR>What about the dragon in the Obelisk of Lost Souls zone?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There's a dragon there? Been all over that zone. never saw any dragons.

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kennethlongjr wrote:<BR>What about the dragon in the Obelisk of Lost Souls zone?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you're talking about the Wyrm that spawns right outside of the Obelisk in the zone, then that's a Wyrm, not a dragon.

[Jindrack]

<DIV>Everyone leaves my poor little lightning dragon buddy off of these lists. :smileysad:  Where's the love for the Lord of the Sanctum?! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Pins]

<DIV>Cyanderos!(misspelled), of course who can forget him in the Santcum of Scaleborn.</DIV>

[xentavius]

<div></div>Talendor, Gorenair are in POA I believe. Tarinax is in Deathtoll Kerafyrm, obselisk? Whatever realm those folks are from? The book in SoS says his soul was captured by people of the void or something... <div></div><p>Message Edited by xentavius on <span class=date_text>04-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Gomora_Toad]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I think today since I have time i'll load up old EQOA and see if I can journey to DFC and beyond so I can find the Sand Dragon of the Desert.  There was also 2 dragons in the Frontiers expansion pack as I mentioned one being of a noxious element I believe.  <BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The EQOA/Frontiers dragons that I can recall are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vox</DIV> <DIV>Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>Skahyir - Located in Box Canyons (the desert dragon you mentioned), lightning-based.</DIV> <DIV>Siliskor - Spawned in Elephant Graveyard via a glitchy quest, disease-based I think.</DIV> <DIV>Toxxulia - Located in one of the Toxxulia zones, believe it or not. :smileytongue: Never fought her, but by the name I assume she's poisonous.</DIV> <DIV>Noroxus - On Plane of Disease. Never fought him either, but given the loc I'd guess he's disease/poison.</DIV> <DIV>Quintessence of Veeshan - On Plane of Sky.</DIV> <DIV><BR>I've a terrible memory so I couldn't tell you any in-game lore that may exist about these dragons, but there's a list of names, at least.</DIV> <DIV><BR>And totally off-topic, but I remember the wolf Amani. I wanted to sponsor him when I was a kid, but didn't have the money. :smileysad:</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jindrack wrote:<BR> <DIV>Everyone leaves my poor little lightning dragon buddy off of these lists. :smileysad:  Where's the love for the Lord of the Sanctum?! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Opp sorry Jindrack we are just compiling a list of the dragons right now getting the pattern down.  :smileywink:</P> <P>I think the biggest thing though is the clear line that is drawn between our epic dragons and the lower powered dragons like the ones that exist with PoA and the young dragon that appears for the Wonderous inventions HQ. </P> <P>Kerafyrm has not been seen yet but i'm betting he would be ungodly powerful almost bordering on near sub diety level if I had to guess.  If that is the case Lord Nagafen has a right to be worried since Kerafyrm is so powerful.  Nagafen appears to us as a level 100 epicx4 dragon and i'm betting if we had to measure the power of Kerafyrm he would be atleast a level 200+ epicx4 monstrosity. </P> <P>However Kerafrym is strangely absent and it his in his absence that the 4 dragons of KoS are in disarray.  It is this fact that many people started on the Serving A New Master quest with you being rewarded with the means to enter DeathToll.  </P> <P>If I really had to say anything pandora's box is slowly being approached where someone will soon open it.  Upon its opening we will have something imense unearthed from the ages long since passed as to what that is I have no idea.   Would be interesting to see these powerful dragons being coupled with the return of the gods of norrath.  These imensely powerful dragons being an omen of the gods returning or their location being discovered.</P>

[Squallaby]

Just a quick question, anyone have any ideas as to where the Dracolich in PLane of Fear (eq1) came from, exactly?Now there was some in game lore in EQ1 (if I'm remembering it correctly) that the Dracolich had been a live dragon whose soul was stolen by Tserina (Frozen Shadows Tower Boss) and given as a gift to Mayong Mistmoore (they were involved) he refused it and she kept it as a "Harnessed Soul Gem" (was a loot item off of her)However whats the story on the Dracolich? That whole story line about it and Mayong/Tserina has always interested me..I wonder what kind of Dragon he was...<div></div>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GomoraToad wrote:<BR> <DIV>The EQOA/Frontiers dragons that I can recall are...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toxxulia - Located in one of the Toxxulia zones, believe it or not. :smileytongue: Never fought her, but by the name I assume she's poisonous.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Though not seen in any location currently accessible in our Norrath, the impact of Toxxulia's presence has been felt by those who have encountered her wayward child.

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GomoraToad wrote:<BR> <DIV>The EQOA/Frontiers dragons that I can recall are...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toxxulia - Located in one of the Toxxulia zones, believe it or not. :smileytongue: Never fought her, but by the name I assume she's poisonous.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Though not seen in any location currently accessible in our Norrath, the impact of Toxxulia's presence has been felt by those who have encountered her wayward child.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Toxxulia's wayward child?  Hmm something is afoot here perhaps those dragons in PoA are more than they appear to be.  I sense something is beginning to unfold here.  The question is what is it that is unfolding and what will it lead to, maybe we are destined to discover the dragons breeding ground once more like the solusek miners did.  However i'm starting to think the ghostly eminations we see in Solusek's Eye are those poor miners that paid the price for discovering that area.<BR>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GomoraToad wrote:<BR> <DIV>The EQOA/Frontiers dragons that I can recall are...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toxxulia - Located in one of the Toxxulia zones, believe it or not. :smileytongue: Never fought her, but by the name I assume she's poisonous.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Though not seen in any location currently accessible in our Norrath, the impact of Toxxulia's presence has been felt by those who have encountered her wayward child.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Could Venekor have something to do with that? I also hear rumors that Venekor is going to be resurrected in the Halls of Seeing soon, and will return as a raid mob but scaled for T7 raids.</P>

[snowbrdr093]

If I were to guess, I would say Venekor is her "wayward child" because he is considered young for a dragon, and also poisonous. Or if I misinterpreted Moorgards post then maybe her wayward child  really isn't in the game. It just seems too logical that Venekor would be her child, seeing as he is also one of the Awakened, and that is the theme of the expansion and would be something worth ocmmenting on. <div></div>

[Creppie]

<div></div><div></div>Ok, I reread that after another few hits of coffee.  Venekor does seem like a resonable guess.  <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Creppie on <span class="date_text">04-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:03 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Creppie on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:06 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>Well, who were the poison dragons we're aware of?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Toxxulia herself. </LI> <LI>Trakanon of Sebillis (bane of the Iksar)</LI> <LI>Severilous of the Emerald Jungle</LI> <LI>Wuoshi of the Wakening Lands</LI> <LI>Venekor</LI></UL> <P>Venekor is currently able to be found within "this" Norrath.  The others can not.  I know I'm missing more than a few on the list, so feel free to add on.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, who were the poison dragons we're aware of?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Toxxulia herself. </LI> <LI>Trakanon of Sebillis (bane of the Iksar)</LI> <LI>Severilous of the Emerald Jungle</LI> <LI>Wuoshi of the Wakening Lands</LI> <LI>Venekor</LI></UL> <P>Venekor is currently able to be found within "this" Norrath.  The others can not.  I know I'm missing more than a few on the list, so feel free to add on.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm guess I was wrong, I thought one of those PoA dragons that spawns maybe consider one of Toxxulia's Wayward children.  But now that you mention it Venekor could be Toxxulia's Wayward child and as someone said maybe ressurected as a T7 mob.</P> <P>The only other curiosity I have left is for our departed friend Darathar who was that nasty level 55 epicx4 dragon on the Island of Refuge.  Jindrack stated in another post the power darathar had and how the wyrmsteel turned that power in upon Darathar himself.  The power i'm talking about is "The power of the harness" which the wyrmsteel weapons are keyed toward.  I would deffinately find it unique for them to resurrect big ol Darathar having him serve some purpose. </P>

[Kendricke]

<P>Do Norrathian dragons have to take on the characteristics of the parent(s)?  Would Toxxulia's child have to be a poison dragon?</P> <P> </P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Yeah. Otherwise you end up with another Kerafyrm if the dragon doesn't have the same element.</DIV>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, who were the poison dragons we're aware of?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Toxxulia herself. </LI> <LI>Trakanon of Sebillis (bane of the Iksar)</LI> <LI>Severilous of the Emerald Jungle</LI> <LI>Wuoshi of the Wakening Lands</LI> <LI>Venekor</LI></UL> <P>Venekor is currently able to be found within "this" Norrath.  The others can not.  I know I'm missing more than a few on the list, so feel free to add on.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm guess I was wrong, I thought one of those PoA dragons that spawns maybe consider one of Toxxulia's Wayward children.  But now that you mention it Venekor could be Toxxulia's Wayward child and as someone said maybe ressurected as a T7 mob.</P> <P>The only other curiosity I have left is for our departed friend Darathar who was that nasty level 55 epicx4 dragon on the Island of Refuge.  Jindrack stated in another post the power darathar had and how the wyrmsteel turned that power in upon Darathar himself.  The power i'm talking about is "The power of the harness" which the wyrmsteel weapons are keyed toward.  I would deffinately find it unique for them to resurrect big ol Darathar having him serve some purpose. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Darathars element is fire not poison

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, who were the poison dragons we're aware of?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Toxxulia herself. </LI> <LI>Trakanon of Sebillis (bane of the Iksar)</LI> <LI>Severilous of the Emerald Jungle</LI> <LI>Wuoshi of the Wakening Lands</LI> <LI>Venekor</LI></UL> <P>Venekor is currently able to be found within "this" Norrath.  The others can not.  I know I'm missing more than a few on the list, so feel free to add on.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm guess I was wrong, I thought one of those PoA dragons that spawns maybe consider one of Toxxulia's Wayward children.  But now that you mention it Venekor could be Toxxulia's Wayward child and as someone said maybe ressurected as a T7 mob.</P> <P>The only other curiosity I have left is for our departed friend Darathar who was that nasty level 55 epicx4 dragon on the Island of Refuge.  Jindrack stated in another post the power darathar had and how the wyrmsteel turned that power in upon Darathar himself.  The power i'm talking about is "The power of the harness" which the wyrmsteel weapons are keyed toward.  I would deffinately find it unique for them to resurrect big ol Darathar having him serve some purpose. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Darathars element is fire not poison<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ya I was refering to venekor then changed to asking about darathar and if he would be resurrected.  There's no doubt in my mind he is fire related since he does that nasty "Flame of Ages" DoT alot of us are familiar with :smileywink: .<BR>

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div>Yeah. Otherwise you end up with another Kerafyrm if the dragon doesn't have the same element.</div><hr></blockquote>Kerafyrm was created because his parents were of <i>opposing </i>elements, not just different ones. As long as the elements aren't opposite (fire and ice for instance) then I don't see a problem. Perhaps the sibling dragon takes on the charactistics of only one of its parents.</div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah. Otherwise you end up with another Kerafyrm if the dragon doesn't have the same element.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kerafyrm was created because his parents were of <I>opposing </I>elements, not just different ones. As long as the elements aren't opposite (fire and ice for instance) then I don't see a problem. Perhaps the sibling dragon takes on the charactistics of only one of its parents.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well to be flat out honest there's never been anything stated that a dragon's offspring is ALWAYS the element of it's two parents.</P> <P> </P> <P>Does Fire + Fire = the possibility for Ice? They've never talked about that. It's only assumed that Fire + Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire.</P>

[Sinect]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah. Otherwise you end up with another Kerafyrm if the dragon doesn't have the same element.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kerafyrm was created because his parents were of <I>opposing </I>elements, not just different ones. As long as the elements aren't opposite (fire and ice for instance) then I don't see a problem. Perhaps the sibling dragon takes on the charactistics of only one of its parents.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well to be flat out honest there's never been anything stated that a dragon's offspring is ALWAYS the element of it's two parents.</P> <P> </P> <P>Does Fire + Fire = the possibility for Ice? They've never talked about that. It's only assumed that Fire + Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere before also, but it would not make sense for the child to be of the same element -</P> <P> </P> <P>If you look at it as 2 Fire dragons having a child I would assume the child would be a Fire dragon, if not and the genes would be passed down from veeshan and most of the dragons would not be a pure element, but rather mixed like us U.S. folks :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>just my thoughts</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinect wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah. Otherwise you end up with another Kerafyrm if the dragon doesn't have the same element.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kerafyrm was created because his parents were of <I>opposing </I>elements, not just different ones. As long as the elements aren't opposite (fire and ice for instance) then I don't see a problem. Perhaps the sibling dragon takes on the charactistics of only one of its parents.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well to be flat out honest there's never been anything stated that a dragon's offspring is ALWAYS the element of it's two parents.</P> <P> </P> <P>Does Fire + Fire = the possibility for Ice? They've never talked about that. It's only assumed that Fire + Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere before also, but it would not make sense for the child to be of the same element -</P> <P> </P> <P>If you look at it as 2 Fire dragons having a child I would assume the child would be a Fire dragon, if not and the genes would be passed down from veeshan and most of the dragons would not be a pure element, but rather mixed like us U.S. folks :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>just my thoughts</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well one thing we also have to assume here *now everyone bareing with me on this theory* we are talking about a creator for a race of creature.  Veeshan the mother of worlds deposited her young on the world and it is Theoreticaly plausible she made different children of each element.  However the "Murphy's Law aka X Factor" maybe the mating of 2 opposing creatures.   Now Veeshan may have foreseen this and had planned on prismatics coming into existance but i'm not so sure. </P> <P>Right now the developers/loreists are going into the gene factor with a quest that is in the barren sky.  You talk to an Aviak who for the sake of his people has allied himself with the hooluks.  It is here that a gnome inventor makes this device that sabatoges *sp* the eggs of the drakes.  The interesting part is that it mentions the eggs being tampered with on a genetic level where by several generations after the first injected ones will suffer from illness.  They will then not be able to fight nor breed I believe.</P> <P>I almost wonder if Kerafyrm was actually created by Veeshan to serve as her/his/its right hand person since it is a prismatic dragon.  Course I wondered about this before and I think someone said Kerafyrm came about through natural means of 2 opposing elemental type dragons.</P>

[troodon]

Well, if the Storm dragon thing is true (which I have no idea) you are presented with two possibilities.  Either dragons must mate with the same element but the resulting children are not necessarily of that element <EM>or</EM> dragons can mate with different (but not opposing) elements and the children can have other elements hiding under the surface as recessive alleles.<p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 PM</span>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> troodon wrote:<BR> Well, if the Storm dragon thing is true (which I have no idea) you are presented with two possibilities.  Either dragons must mate with the same element but the resulting children are not necessarily of that element <EM>or</EM> dragons can mate with different (but not opposing) elements and the children can have other elements hiding under the surface as recessive alleles. <P>Message Edited by troodon on <SPAN class=date_text>04-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:53 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes the "Storm dragon thing" is true, its very simple and basic lore form the crusaders of veeshan if you did there quest, and like two mobs in Kerafyrms lair. </P> <P>I think that a dragon offsprings element is determined by the element of the two parents. The storm dragon is a very different case because its born to any element randomly because two storm dragons can't mate since there can only be 1 storm dragon and if it knows of the existence of another it would fight it.</P> <P>I think that when the crusader speaks about dragons of opposing elements not being allowed to mate she meant that dragons can only mate with dragons of there own element. Meaning that all elements oppose each other unless they are the same. I can't imagine a fire dragon mating with a poison dragon and not having a prismatic offspring.</P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinect wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah. Otherwise you end up with another Kerafyrm if the dragon doesn't have the same element.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Kerafyrm was created because his parents were of <I>opposing </I>elements, not just different ones. As long as the elements aren't opposite (fire and ice for instance) then I don't see a problem. Perhaps the sibling dragon takes on the charactistics of only one of its parents.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well to be flat out honest there's never been anything stated that a dragon's offspring is ALWAYS the element of it's two parents.</P> <P> </P> <P>Does Fire + Fire = the possibility for Ice? They've never talked about that. It's only assumed that Fire + Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire = Fire.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere before also, but it would not make sense for the child to be of the same element -</P> <P> </P> <P>If you look at it as 2 Fire dragons having a child I would assume the child would be a Fire dragon, if not and the genes would be passed down from veeshan and most of the dragons would not be a pure element, but rather mixed like us U.S. folks :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>just my thoughts</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well one thing we also have to assume here *now everyone bareing with me on this theory* we are talking about a creator for a race of creature.  Veeshan the mother of worlds deposited her young on the world and it is Theoreticaly plausible she made different children of each element.  However the "Murphy's Law aka X Factor" maybe the mating of 2 opposing creatures.   Now Veeshan may have foreseen this and had planned on prismatics coming into existance but i'm not so sure. </P> <P>Right now the developers/loreists are going into the gene factor with a quest that is in the barren sky.  You talk to an Aviak who for the sake of his people has allied himself with the hooluks.  It is here that a gnome inventor makes this device that sabatoges *sp* the eggs of the drakes.  The interesting part is that it mentions the eggs being tampered with on a genetic level where by several generations after the first injected ones will suffer from illness.  They will then not be able to fight nor breed I believe.</P> <P>I almost wonder if Kerafyrm was actually created by Veeshan to serve as her/his/its right hand person since it is a prismatic dragon.  Course I wondered about this before and I think someone said Kerafyrm came about through natural means of 2 opposing elemental type dragons.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Kerafyrm is definately not created by Veeshan, he was the child of two dragons of opposing elements. Its going agaisnt all facts gathered so far by saying Kerafyrm was created by Veeshan.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:36 2002] You say, 'Hail, Ferrin Q`Nyil'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:37 2002] Ferrin Q`Nyil says 'Fare thee well, stouthearted adventurer. I would welcome you to this place, yet I feel that a welcome is not quite deserving of the [fate] in store for you. I know there was no welcome for me when I first ventured to this place, and look at me now. I am nothing but a frail, ghostly figure of what I once was.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:45 2002] You say, 'what fate'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:45 2002] Ferrin Q`Nyil says, 'I may look as though I am healthy and vibrant, though your eyes deceive you.' Ferrin chuckles. 'It has been so long since I was imprisoned here, I cannot tell you when it was. To me it seems like only yesterday, but I know deep down that time does not pass for me any more. I, like you, thought that the intrigue and mystery of this great lair was second only to the treasures that lay within. When I arrived however, I found not a lair, but a massive tomb whose occupants were meant to keep a very large, and very powerful [beast] within.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:52 2002] You say, 'what beast'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:52 2002] Ferrin Q`Nyil says 'Time has told us that a great many things are unexplainable, and even less understood. Though I don't know the entire story, it comes to bear that long ago, there was a great council of [elders]. These elders decreed what could and could not be done, for the benefit of their kind. Certain things were done to prevent bad things. . . or bad creatures from being created. Other things were done to prohibit the slaying of those of the same bloodline.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:57:59 2002] You say, 'what elders'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:00 2002] Ferrin Q`Nyil says 'The council of elder dragons. Truly, theirs is a majestic, powerful and battle worn species. The elders had decreed that no two dragons of opposing elements would be allowed to mate. No explanation had been given, though I believe I know the reason why it was given. Despite the decree, a pair of elemental dragons slipped away to remote areas of Norrath and mated, and the creation of a great prismatic dragon took place. And that is the beast, strewn of opalescent scales, headstrong and a leader in his own right. It was he that this tomb was entrusted to keep held, forever. Alas, that was not meant to be, as more and more, cunning [travelers] like you would make their way further and further into the lair.'<BR><BR><BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:10 2002] You say, 'Hail, Bittles the Lost'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:10 2002] Bittles the Lost says 'Eh, hrm? Who're you? Found yer way in here, 'ave ya? Not the brightest idea in the world, ya know. I hope you weren't planning on going any further, because that would really be on the level of those twerps that freed that [shiny beast] in the first place.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:18 2002] You say, 'what shiny beast'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:18 2002] Bittles the Lost says 'Ya know that story about how those two dragons got together and made that premzatica dragon?'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:18 2002] Ferrin Q`Nyil says 'Prismatic, you goof.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:18 2002] Bittles the Lost says 'Yar, whate'er. Anyway, that bugger got made an' he went wild all over Velious, making demands and actin' all proud and powerful and things like that. Well, he decided he wanted ta have a nice big home in the middle of the mountain. And you know what? That's what he did! Yer standin' in the middle of his lair. Well after he [went crazy], some of those other dragon-folk decided it would be good ta put him in here and put him ta sleep for all eternity. [Four] of 'em kept him sleepin' and made sure that no one, such as yerself, could get in here ta wake him up.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:24 2002] You say, 'what four'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:25 2002] Bittles the Lost says 'Them thar four warders. They were the most powerful elemental dragons of their time, and kept that sleeping fella asleep for quite some long time. Names of Nanzata, Tukaarak, Hraashna, and Ventani, if'n my mind serves me correct-like. When they started here, they had some other big-time dragon create the big ice creatures all over the place -- the golems, don't ya know? In any case, they upped and got kilt by some folks like you a while back, causing all kinds of panic and havoc. The ice guys were dismantled by the [new inhabitants] of this here lair and reassembled to serve them. Not that it really matters to me, I got lost here anyway and look what happened ta me!'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:29 2002] You say, 'what new inhabitants'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:29 2002] Bittles the Lost says 'Why the ancients of course! They just kinda cropped up when that big shiny fella was awakened by those other people. Some thought that those four warders were trouble, but believe me, they're like drakelings in comparison. Kal or Jobana over here might know more about them than I do, I'm just a lost little gnome with no where to go.'<BR><BR><BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:21 2002] Meesta says, 'Hail, Kal t`Ven'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 04:58:21 2002] Kal t`Ven says 'Greetings, young sleuth. These are trying times, as I am sure you are aware, but it is good that there are still adventurous sorts like you about. Were there not, I am confident that our deaths would have been in vain, and not in the spirit of exploration and danger-seeking. However, there is one thing to be said for adventuring, and still another to be said for flights of fancy. Which is it for you?'<BR><BR><BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:12:57 2002] Benaa says, 'Hail, Jobana Du`Ata'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:12:57 2002] Jobana Du`Ata looks at you with a most dismal look in her eyes. 'Your kind have returned once again. I knew this day would come, yet hoped that perhaps there would be no further clashing in this tomb. I was mistaken, for here you are. The great sleeping beast has already been released unto the world to wreak havoc, cause destruction and attempt to take back what he has lost, so what further purpose could you have for coming here? Perhaps you are soul hunting, searching for those of us lost in here years ago, long since forgotten by any mortal family we may have had. Or perhaps you are searching for the [ancient dragons] that inhabit this lair.'[Fri Sep 27 05:13:59 2002] Benaa says, 'what ancient dragons?'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:13:59 2002] Jobana Du`Ata says 'The ancients were long ago part of the following that the mighty prismatic lord had before he was imprisoned here, in his own dwelling. Kildrukaun, oldest and wisest of them had at first spoken out against the creation of a prismatic dragon, claiming that Veeshan herself would have to approve of such a creation and that it would never take place. When it did take place however, and the dragon that never would exist was created, he traded his beliefs for those of new ones, claiming that this new prismatic dragon was part of a prophecy from Veeshan. He aptly called this prismatic dragon [Kerafyrm], or Prophetic Savior and began this new wonder's tutelage into greatness.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:14:24 2002] Benaa says, 'who is Kerafyrm?'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:14:24 2002] Jobana Du`Ata says 'The majestic beast grew quickly, learning much and gaining great power in short time. He expanded his knowledge and his [influence], pushing the dragons into a kind of new era, where dragons would be the ultimate power on the planet once again. Many were left in a wake of fright behind Kerafyrm, believing that he may be too powerful for his own good, yet fearing that if they spoke out against him in this time, they would be condemned in some horrible way.'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:14:35 2002] Benaa says, 'what influence?'<BR>[Fri Sep 27 05:14:35 2002] Jobana Du`Ata says 'Imagine a being with such power that he was unstoppable in battle. Imagine that this same creature held a loathing for all creatures not of dragon kin. Imagine also that this creature was not born into this deep rooted, dark hatred of the species, and that as he grew older, wiser and more powerful, he came to be aware of his powers and of the trying issues that kept his people back. This was the beast that was Kerafyrm, and as he grew in power, so too did his word. After some time, that which Kerafyrm spoke became law to the lands, and he usurped even the power and influence of the high council. What was once a time of might and strength through his word turned into a constant [chafe] against the necks of dragonkind.'<!-- / message --><!-- sig --></DIV>

[Ama]

<DIV>Very nice mod i'll have to examine that post you made more thoroughly later on.  As for Noxious/Fire elements that is plausible it could produce a prismatic but it would be a weird prismatic dragon.  However there is one thing twitching at me and that is does the noxious meaning imply poison/disease.  Could there be a strict poison dragon and a strict disease dragon with the two of them mating producing a prismatic Poison/Disease dragon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now we have 3 possible combinations that must be avoided *4th maybe*.  The first is Fire and Ice with the second being Fire and Noxious with the last being Ice and Noxious.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <DIV>Very nice mod i'll have to examine that post you made more thoroughly later on.  As for Noxious/Fire elements that is plausible it could produce a prismatic but it would be a weird prismatic dragon.  However there is one thing twitching at me and that is does the noxious meaning imply poison/disease.  Could there be a strict poison dragon and a strict disease dragon with the two of them mating producing a prismatic Poison/Disease dragon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now we have 3 possible combinations that must be avoided *4th maybe*.  The first is Fire and Ice with the second being Fire and Noxious with the last being Ice and Noxious.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I believe that disease is based on the class of the dragon, like if a dragon is an SK he/she would be doing disease based attacks. But i think poison would be a dragons element.</P> <P>I'm not even sure that a dragons breath weapon has anything to do with the dragons element, because the four warders in the sleepers tomb who kept him sleeping were the 4 most powerful dragons of the 4 primal elements, fire, earth, air and water, and two of the warders had a cold based AE, Nanzata the Warder had a breath weapon called frost breath and Ventani the Warder had a breath weapon called Freezing breath, which both obviously did cold based damage, but both of there elements were different because the elder council had chosen 4 dragon of different elements, but here we have two dragons of different elements using a breath weapon of the ice element. I would  say that we can't determine a dragons element by his/her AE or breath weapon.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sinect]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>MoD1133 wrote:</P> <P><BR>I believe that disease is based on the class of the dragon, like if a dragon is an SK he/she would be doing disease based attacks. But i think poison would be a dragons element.</P> <P>I'm not even sure that a dragons breath weapon has anything to do with the dragons element, because the four warders in the sleepers tomb who kept him sleeping were the 4 most powerful dragons of the 4 primal elements, fire, earth, air and water, and two of the warders had a cold based AE, Nanzata the Warder had a breath weapon called frost breath and Ventani the Warder had a breath weapon called Freezing breath, which both obviously did cold based damage, but both of there elements were different because the elder council had chosen 4 dragon of different elements, but here we have two dragons of different elements using a breath weapon of the ice element. I would  say that we can't determine a dragons element by his/her AE or breath weapon.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would agree with you there -</P> <P>So what Elements do we have for the dragons - Earth - Air - Water - Fire - ? excluding the storm dragon I thought I read there being 5<BR></P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinect wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>MoD1133 wrote:</P> <P><BR>I believe that disease is based on the class of the dragon, like if a dragon is an SK he/she would be doing disease based attacks. But i think poison would be a dragons element.</P> <P>I'm not even sure that a dragons breath weapon has anything to do with the dragons element, because the four warders in the sleepers tomb who kept him sleeping were the 4 most powerful dragons of the 4 primal elements, fire, earth, air and water, and two of the warders had a cold based AE, Nanzata the Warder had a breath weapon called frost breath and Ventani the Warder had a breath weapon called Freezing breath, which both obviously did cold based damage, but both of there elements were different because the elder council had chosen 4 dragon of different elements, but here we have two dragons of different elements using a breath weapon of the ice element. I would  say that we can't determine a dragons element by his/her AE or breath weapon.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would agree with you there -</P> <P>So what Elements do we have for the dragons - Earth - Air - Water - Fire - ? excluding the storm dragon I thought I read there being 5<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think Ice would also be an element.

[MoD1133]

There are also Sky dragons.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Sky dragons? never heard of that one before.</DIV>

[Ama]

<DIV>Well don't forget guys we have more than the primary elements we also have noxious elements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if this is how it is there could be a possibility of 7 dragon elemental types. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fire</DIV> <DIV>Earth</DIV> <DIV>Wind</DIV> <DIV>Water</DIV> <DIV>Disease*</DIV> <DIV>Poison*</DIV> <DIV>Storm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Now I assume Disease and poison are seperate but I could be wrong and if so we have a total of 6 elemental types*.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Disease and poison are two different elements.</DIV>

[MoD1133]

<DIV>You can add sky dragons to that list making it 8.</DIV>

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div>Sky dragons? never heard of that one before.</div><hr></blockquote>EQ1's Trakanon was said to have been a sky dragon before he was cursed. He supposed to have been blue and the sky dragon was the dragon type closest to Veeshan.</div>

[BasNamhaid]

<P>Something to consider:</P> <P> </P> <P>I remember a great deal of discussion about the gods and their roles during EQ along the time of the PoP expansion... Veeshan was a short topic here as she was considered somewhat beyond even the gods.  It was said (and this has been several years ago and I'm sure I'm forgetting many details) that Veeshan roamed what would be the vastness of the universe occasionally "marking" a planet.  This act planted the seeds of her offspring and Dragons emerged on that planet.  I mention this because it was stated (or guessed at by someone else on this thread) that all life was created on Norrath by her choice of of the planet as a vessel for her children but I'd like to submit the argument I find this unlikely.  It's known from the same lore that her choice of Norrath drew the attention of the Gods of the second born, and development of those races are a result of the other gods involvement.  So, its seems to me there are two possibilities...</P> <P>1) Veeshan's choice did spawn the dragons and lesser forms of life as fauna for the growth and sustainance of her kind</P> <P>or</P> <P>2) Dragons may not be bound so closely to physical needs that the second born races are tied to ie : food and drink .. and are sustained by a very close connection to the magic of the world.</P> <P> </P> <P>If the second is true, its far more likely that the gods that took notice of Veeshan's mark layed the groundwork for all other forms of life and it makes more since to me that They would be responcible for providing the "needs" of their handywork including flora/fauna and the knowledge to manipulate it.</P> <P>Therefore, to continue stipulating the unknown,  I'd assumed from prior reading that Veeshan seems to be vast in her influence in the universe, beyond the influence of the gods of the second born, perhaps parallel with another greater being but not at all bound by similar contraints of the more mundane gods, so her appointment of a dragon to any specific duty or choice to leave behind seems a thought that is likely below her station in the scheme of things.  She is the Great Dragon, responsible for the presence of Dragons on Norrath and since that one act, is/has moved on likely to never be involved with the planet again.</P>

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>EQ1's Trakanon was said to have been a sky dragon before he was cursed. He supposed to have been blue and the sky dragon was the dragon type closest to Veeshan.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>He was referred to as "the large blue" in the Kunark manual, and I always assumed he was some other element besides poison before his little run-in with death, but I don't see that as a good enough reason to assume he was a sky dragon</P>

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BasNamhaid wrote:<BR> <P>Veeshan was a short topic here as she was considered somewhat beyond even the gods.  I'd assumed from prior reading that Veeshan seems to be vast in her influence in the universe, beyond the influence of the gods of the second born, perhaps parallel with another greater being but not at all bound by similar contraints of the more mundane gods</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't see any reason to think this.  She's a Goddess of Nature, just like Brell, Solusek, and Prexus and some others.  These gods and the Gods of Influence "exist on the same tier within the hierarchy of the planar realms" according to Vhalen, and they are all beneath the elemental gods in power and influence.</P> <P>I mean, what makes you think she's so powerful?  She's big, I'll grant you that, so are the giants that can be soloed by countless ratonga and gnomes.  She created the first life on Norrath; I think any of the other major deities could have done this as well.  If anything, she acts like she's less powerful.  The other gods are fine chilling in their planes, but Veeshan has to roam the universe depositing her brood and trying to gain an upper hand on the other races.  That's why Brell organized the other gods to create races on Norrath, to "[keep] the Dragon Wurmqueen in check".</P><p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class=date_text>04-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 AM</span>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You can add sky dragons to that list making it 8.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thx for the heads up about the poison and disease elements.  I thought they would be classified together as *Noxious* but as I assumed they were not and are opposing elements like fire and ice. </P> <P>As for the Sky Dragon mod I thought that would be classified under "Air Element" however if it is completely different then i'll add it to the list.  </P> <P> </P> <P>As for Troodon's question asking "What makes you think she is so powerful?" I would have to say it is the fact that Veeshan created the dragons themselves.  It deffinately takes an immense power to create something out of nothing and I do wonder if Veeshan had the "Prismatic Dragon" in her scope of things or if it was beyond her comprehention.  Also can more than 1 prismatic dragon exist within the world of norrath and an even scarier thought what would happen if a prismatic fire/ice elemental prismatic mated with a disease/poison prismatic elemental dragon?  Would that produce an even greater prismatic dragon that would border on sub diety level?</P>

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Amana wrote:<div></div><p>oodon's question asking "What makes you think she is so powerful?" I would have to say it is the fact that Veeshan created the dragons themselves.  It deffinately takes an immense power to create something out of nothing and I do wonder if Veeshan had the "Prismatic Dragon" in her scope of things or if it was beyond her comprehention.  Also can more than 1 prismatic dragon exist within the world of norrath and an even scarier thought what would happen if a prismatic fire/ice elemental prismatic mated with a disease/poison prismatic elemental dragon?  Would that produce an even greater prismatic dragon that would border on sub diety level?</p><hr></blockquote>I'm sure it's possible for more than one prismatic to exist at the same time. There's no lore that says otherwise, but the thing that makes Kerafyrm and the whole prismatic line of dragons a problem is that he is/was filled with rage, and a lust for destruction. When he was free to roam in his early days, lore tells that he basically scared all the other dragons around him with his lust for battle and blood. They say something "dark" lay deep inside of him. I think that's a nice of saying he had a screw loose and was a psychopath.My point with the above lore reference was that Kerafyrm scared 95% of the other dragons with his "dark spirit".  He wasn't manageable by the Council and basically had to be tricked into a coma because they had no other way of dealing with him. Why would dragons go out and make another one(s) when they see what a walking sh*t storm Kerafyrm was?Veeshan was very aware of the problems with a Prismatic dragon and that's why she forbid dragons of opposite elements to mate. She knew that a prismatic dragon would be a wrecking ball without a chain and completely uncontrollable by conventional means. Having said that, there was probably a small part of Veeshan's heart that wouldn't cry if Kerafyrm did return Norrath to her children by any means necessary.Lastly Veeshan has been thought of as powerful because she isn't seen squabbling with the other gods over egotistical or petty things. She was far removed from the politics of Planes of Power and for the most part pays attention to only dragons. Her seperation makes her seem "beyond" the other gods... she is seen as a dragon who flies through the universe seeding worlds while the other gods argue and fight over mortals on Norrath.</div>

[irish]

Venekor Is the son of Trakanon according to the Lore In the KoS Strategy Guide from Prima and it says he has the gift of prophecy like his father;which probably explains why he is in the Hall of Seeing in Tenebrous.

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <P>oodon's question asking "What makes you think she is so powerful?" I would have to say it is the fact that Veeshan created the dragons themselves.  It deffinately takes an immense power to create something out of nothing and I do wonder if Veeshan had the "Prismatic Dragon" in her scope of things or if it was beyond her comprehention.  Also can more than 1 prismatic dragon exist within the world of norrath and an even scarier thought what would happen if a prismatic fire/ice elemental prismatic mated with a disease/poison prismatic elemental dragon?  Would that produce an even greater prismatic dragon that would border on sub diety level?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sure it's possible for more than one prismatic to exist at the same time. There's no lore that says otherwise, but the thing that makes Kerafyrm and the whole prismatic line of dragons a problem is that he is/was filled with rage, and a lust for destruction. When he was free to roam in his early days, lore tells that he basically scared all the other dragons around him with his lust for battle and blood. They say something "dark" lay deep inside of him. I think that's a nice of saying he had a screw loose and was a psychopath.<BR>My point with the above lore reference was that Kerafyrm scared 95% of the other dragons with his "dark spirit".  He wasn't manageable by the Council and basically had to be tricked into a coma because they had no other way of dealing with him. Why would dragons go out and make another one(s) when they see what a walking sh*t storm Kerafyrm was?<BR><BR>Veeshan was very aware of the problems with a Prismatic dragon and that's why she forbid dragons of opposite elements to mate. She knew that a prismatic dragon would be a wrecking ball without a chain and completely uncontrollable by conventional means. Having said that, there was probably a small part of Veeshan's heart that wouldn't cry if Kerafyrm did return Norrath to her children by any means necessary.<BR><BR>Lastly Veeshan has been thought of as powerful because she isn't seen squabbling with the other gods over egotistical or petty things. She was far removed from the politics of Planes of Power and for the most part pays attention to only dragons. Her seperation makes her seem "beyond" the other gods... she is seen as a dragon who flies through the universe seeding worlds while the other gods argue and fight over mortals on Norrath.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very nice I would probably have to agree that since veeshan is a "god" she probably knew about prismatics thats why she forbid it as you say.  Though you do have to wonder what would happen if 2 psychopathic prismatic dragons mated fire and ice with disease and poison o man I shutter at that thought.  Could you imagine a dragon of that caliber being unleashed upon norrath not even the mightiest of creatures could take that sucker down probably not even lord nagafen. </P> <P>As you said Kerafyrm was a prismatic and scared 95% of the dragon population so it stands to reason even kerafyrm is not psychotic enough to unleash an ungodly prismatic dragon upon norrath.  </P> <P>Here is something else to wonder about it is said that there can only be 1 storm dragon at 1 time and if there are ever 2 dragons at once 1 must die.  The thing is what would happen if 1 didn't know the other existed and they never came into contact?  Is there a kind of 6th sense where if another storm dragon is born into the world the eldest one will instantly know it and have to kill it?</P> <P>I do have to say Kerafrym must have been the exception to the dragon code since the Ring of Scale I believe forbid dragons from physically engaging and attacking one another.</P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <P>oodon's question asking "What makes you think she is so powerful?" I would have to say it is the fact that Veeshan created the dragons themselves.  It deffinately takes an immense power to create something out of nothing and I do wonder if Veeshan had the "Prismatic Dragon" in her scope of things or if it was beyond her comprehention.  Also can more than 1 prismatic dragon exist within the world of norrath and an even scarier thought what would happen if a prismatic fire/ice elemental prismatic mated with a disease/poison prismatic elemental dragon?  Would that produce an even greater prismatic dragon that would border on sub diety level?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sure it's possible for more than one prismatic to exist at the same time. There's no lore that says otherwise, but the thing that makes Kerafyrm and the whole prismatic line of dragons a problem is that he is/was filled with rage, and a lust for destruction. When he was free to roam in his early days, lore tells that he basically scared all the other dragons around him with his lust for battle and blood. They say something "dark" lay deep inside of him. I think that's a nice of saying he had a screw loose and was a psychopath.<BR>My point with the above lore reference was that Kerafyrm scared 95% of the other dragons with his "dark spirit".  He wasn't manageable by the Council and basically had to be tricked into a coma because they had no other way of dealing with him. Why would dragons go out and make another one(s) when they see what a walking sh*t storm Kerafyrm was?<BR><BR>Veeshan was very aware of the problems with a Prismatic dragon and that's why she forbid dragons of opposite elements to mate. She knew that a prismatic dragon would be a wrecking ball without a chain and completely uncontrollable by conventional means. Having said that, there was probably a small part of Veeshan's heart that wouldn't cry if Kerafyrm did return Norrath to her children by any means necessary.<BR><BR>Lastly Veeshan has been thought of as powerful because she isn't seen squabbling with the other gods over egotistical or petty things. She was far removed from the politics of Planes of Power and for the most part pays attention to only dragons. Her seperation makes her seem "beyond" the other gods... she is seen as a dragon who flies through the universe seeding worlds while the other gods argue and fight over mortals on Norrath.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very nice I would probably have to agree that since veeshan is a "god" she probably knew about prismatics thats why she forbid it as you say.  Though you do have to wonder what would happen if 2 psychopathic prismatic dragons mated fire and ice with disease and poison o man I shutter at that thought.  Could you imagine a dragon of that caliber being unleashed upon norrath not even the mightiest of creatures could take that sucker down probably not even lord nagafen. </P> <P>As you said Kerafyrm was a prismatic and scared 95% of the dragon population so it stands to reason even kerafyrm is not psychotic enough to unleash an ungodly prismatic dragon upon norrath.  </P> <P>Here is something else to wonder about it is said that there can only be 1 storm dragon at 1 time and if there are ever 2 dragons at once 1 must die.  The thing is what would happen if 1 didn't know the other existed and they never came into contact?  Is there a kind of 6th sense where if another storm dragon is born into the world the eldest one will instantly know it and have to kill it?</P> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>I do have to say Kerafrym must have been the exception to the dragon code since the Ring of Scale I believe forbid dragons from physically engaging and attacking one another.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kerafyrm was allowed to live because Kildrukaun believed that a prismatic dragon would never be born unless Veeshan said otherwise but when a prismatic was born Kildrukaun changed his beliefs and believed Kerafyrm was born because of a certain prophecy and that with an unknown purpose he would reunite the Ring of Scale and Claws of Veeshan, thats why Kerafyrm was allowed to live.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[MoD1133]

<DIV>I would like a developer to tell us what the different dragon elements are, and if a dragons breath weapon and AE have anything to do with the element.</DIV>

[Zh]

Following standard dragon lore established long long ago, the element of the dragon IS what type of breath it has. Basically the main identifier for it.<div></div>

[Sinect]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhek wrote:<BR>Following standard dragon lore established long long ago, the element of the dragon IS what type of breath it has. Basically the main identifier for it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>established where?

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sinect wrote:<div></div> established where?<hr></blockquote>Possibly in the fact that the first two dragons in EQ1 were: Lord Nagafen, a fire dragon that breathed fire (lave breath)... and Lady Vox, an ice dragon that breathed frost (Frost Breath).They both are unmistakable elemental dragons and their surroundings, colorations and breath weapons emphasize that fact. The Kunark era Talandor (red dragon with Immolating Breath) and Gorenaire (white dragon with Freezing Breath) are also cut from the same cloth.I personally wouldn't consider poison and disease as element types in terms of dragons. It doesn't say that all dragons <i>have </i>to be elementals, it just said that no two dragons could mate who were of opposed elements.I see disease and poison falling underneath the earth element given Woushi and Severilous' breath weapons and the fact that both were tied with the earth and/or nature in EQ1.</div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinect wrote:<BR> <BR>established where?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Possibly in the fact that the first two dragons in EQ1 were: Lord Nagafen, a fire dragon that breathed fire (lave breath)... and Lady Vox, an ice dragon that breathed frost (Frost Breath).<BR><BR>They both are unmistakable elemental dragons and their surroundings, colorations and breath weapons emphasize that fact. The Kunark era Talandor (red dragon with Immolating Breath) and Gorenaire (white dragon with Freezing Breath) are also cut from the same cloth.<BR><BR>I personally wouldn't consider poison and disease as element types in terms of dragons. It doesn't say that all dragons <I>have </I>to be elementals, it just said that no two dragons could mate who were of opposed elements.<BR><BR>I see disease and poison falling underneath the earth element given Woushi and Severilous' breath weapons and the fact that both were tied with the earth and/or nature in EQ1.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think thats the problem Dreadfiend is that you have dragons that have no mistaken identy about them of what element they are.  However sometimes the dragons looks may not give a clear picture of what his elemental type maybe. </P> <P>I think we should all search for the great vhalen god of lore of these forums and EQII to pass on his wisedom to us about these dragons.</P> <P>What element types exist right now and is it true that it is really opposing elements that make a dragon? A side note to this being are disease and poison truely opposing elements or do they both fall under the "Noxious" category?</P> <P>For our final question does the type of breath a dragon uses give a clue as to what type of dragon it really is or is that mearly a ruse?<BR></P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhek wrote:<BR>Following standard dragon lore established long long ago, the element of the dragon IS what type of breath it has. Basically the main identifier for it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think it might work a bit differently then what you said, because 2 out of the 4 warders had both used an ice elemental breath, one of them used frost breath and the other used freezing breath but the 4 warders each had a different element from the other which is what kept kerafyrm sleeping.</P> <P>None of the 4 warders had the element of ice either, there elements were fire, water, earth and air. I dont think breath has anything to do with element.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <span class=date_text>05-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 AM</span>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinect wrote:<BR> <BR>established where?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Possibly in the fact that the first two dragons in EQ1 were: Lord Nagafen, a fire dragon that breathed fire (lave breath)... and Lady Vox, an ice dragon that breathed frost (Frost Breath).<BR><BR>They both are unmistakable elemental dragons and their surroundings, colorations and breath weapons emphasize that fact. The Kunark era Talandor (red dragon with Immolating Breath) and Gorenaire (white dragon with Freezing Breath) are also cut from the same cloth.<BR><BR>I personally wouldn't consider poison and disease as element types in terms of dragons. It doesn't say that all dragons <I>have </I>to be elementals, it just said that no two dragons could mate who were of opposed elements.<BR><BR>I see disease and poison falling underneath the earth element given Woushi and Severilous' breath weapons and the fact that both were tied with the earth and/or nature in EQ1.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think thats the problem Dreadfiend is that you have dragons that have no mistaken identy about them of what element they are.  However sometimes the dragons looks may not give a clear picture of what his elemental type maybe. </P> <P>I think we should all search for the great vhalen god of lore of these forums and EQII to pass on his wisedom to us about these dragons.</P> <P>What element types exist right now and is it true that it is really opposing elements that make a dragon? A side note to this being are disease and poison truely opposing elements or do they both fall under the "Noxious" category?</P> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>For our final question does the type of breath a dragon uses give a clue as to what type of dragon it really is or is that mearly a ruse?<BR></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not really, as I have said that none of the warders had the element of ice and yet two of them used frost breath and freezing breath.<BR>

[Ama]

<DIV>Well guys it looks like we got a bit of lore about Tarinax from Vhalen in a post about deathtoll.  This is a very health dose of reading but does give insight into Tarinax's Background and how he is what he is now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vhalen wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Tarinax is his own person. His history is little known. Most likely you would not have access to his history, but you should knwo a bit about what has passed. I can tell you only this, for now:</P> <P>Tarinax existed in the early days of the Age of Scale.  He was the first dragon named as handler of the drakota, a post most recently held by Darathar.  As handler his duties were to apprehend and punish renegade dragons. To serve his duties The Destroyer had the demi-dragons known as the drakota. Employing the drakota forces to execute the harshest punishments upon their fellow dragons circumvented some of Veeshan's laws. Tarinax served as the master of the drakota and executer of punishment among dragonkind during the seizure and incarceration of the _____. The crime ____ committed against the laws of Veeshan were so severe that Tarinax and the drakota army were charged with overseeing the imprisonment of the lawbreakers. Although the crime was great, the criminals could not be destroyed. The reasons were clear to the dragon elders. So, for decades the dragon warden watched over the two criminals all the while keeping the lesser races of Norrath from interfering with the incarceration. But something happened during this final duty of Tarinax. No Norrathian can be sure what happened, but it is rumored that an alliance was formed between the warden and his prisoners. Tales began to spread, tales of drakota overseeing the construction of drakota citadels all throughout what was then known as Tunaria. A great plot was in motion that might see a new dragon led empire rise, an empire like none ever seen. This new empire would be led by dragonkind, but comprised of many lesser hordes of evil. This new empire was secretly being built beneath the land of Tunaria, veiled from the eyes of the dragon elders. Tarinax would oversee the construction of this new evil empire until the day he could release the criminals he was charged to oversee. Together the three would rule over this new empire. But the rise of this new evil dragon-led empire would be thwarted by the meddling of the lesser races. The drakota citadels under construction were threatening the villages they rest near. The horde forces were not as clandestine as hoped. The temptation of pillaging nearby villages was too great. A call for heroes was sent into Tunaria, a call from various villages far apart, but with a common threat. This call would be answered and soon every drakota citadel would find itself under attack before it could be properly defended. The interference of the lessers brought the unwanted attention of the dragons elders upon Tunaria. The dragons learned of the betrayal and flew to Tunaria to stop the plot of Tarinax and his prisoners. Before Tarinax could be captured by his masters, he would be slain by a mortal using _____ called _____. This was no doubt a better ending to his life. The Claws of Veeshan would not have destroyed him, but whatever punishment they would have executed would have been far worse than death. Tarinax's soul ____ upon his death.  Although the whereabouts of his soul are unknown, his body now resides in Deathtoll, most likely placed there by ____, to be used as ____.</P></DIV>

[Neherenia]

<DIV>Not sure but isn't there another dragon in the Temple of Solusek Ro in Lavastorm?</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Lord Xifl, though he's not suppose to be a dragon. He was a Wurm in EQlive, and the quest text for the Wurmslayer HQ even mentions that detail.</DIV>

[troodon]

The transition from EQ1 to EQ2 was a little rough for the Wurmslayer wurms.  Azdalin somehow got transported up to a floating island, Glyton got turned into a drake, and I guess Xyfl has been plucked at for scales for the last 500 years.

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> troodon wrote:<BR> The transition from EQ1 to EQ2 was a little rough for the Wurmslayer wurms.  Azdalin somehow got transported up to a floating island, Glyton got turned into a drake, and I guess Xyfl has been plucked at for scales for the last 500 years.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly: After you complete those three, you go back and tell the guy that two of them weren't even wurms...

[Ama]

<DIV>Me and some guildies were running through Lavastorm passing the usual skeletal dragons.  However someone popped up with an unusual question asking "Who was that dragon?" sadly I couldn't answer this because I had no idea.  Anyone know who this dragon might be that my guildie asked about.  Here is a picture of the skeletal dragon that now sits within the pool of lava, <FONT color=#ff0000>also a curious question could it be the remains of the all mighty Tarinax? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/8581/eq20000180op.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <DIV>Me and some guildies were running through Lavastorm passing the usual skeletal dragons.  However someone popped up with an unusual question asking "Who was that dragon?" sadly I couldn't answer this because I had no idea.  Anyone know who this dragon might be that my guildie asked about.  Here is a picture of the skeletal dragon that now sits within the pool of lava, <FONT color=#ff0000>also a curious question could it be the remains of the all mighty Tarinax? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/8581/eq20000180op.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lady Vox.

[Kytraan]

<div></div><div></div>Given that Lady Vox's spirit is still trapped in Permafrost I very much doubt that her death took place in Lavastorm. Unless you have some specific lore that points to this. This question _might_ be answerable however. There is an event (or named/group of named) that spawns at this location. I am not sure if it’s random and rare or if it’s a spawned event. It is Epicx4. I have only seen it up once and had to take the long way around (it blocked the usual run to Maiden’s Gulch from the SE entrance). What ever the lore behind this event is would probably explain who the dragon actually is, and possibly who killed him (my money would be on Nagafen, but I’m not sure if he can leave his lair). Edit: Named is Solusek's Fist and is a "living golem". This is a contested raid mob that spawns here, level 54 epicx4 with linked drakota adds. I still dont know if it plays into the lore of the dead dragon. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kytraan on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kytraan on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 AM</span>

[Pins]

I see you continually saying that it's Lady Vox's skeleton, but I've yet to see anything that shows that it is. It's obviously not Tarniax's because if it was, how could he be a skeleton dragon in Deathtoll?

[Zoren Northwood]

<div></div>In-game lore has Lady Vox being killed in her own lair by Darathar and the drakota, but Nagafen somehow avoided the same fate, in such a way that at least one drakota died ("But this will not stop the drakota entirely, for their numbers are many.")  In fact, the lore states that this battle between Nagafen and the drakota took place before Nagafen returned to his lair from Permafrost, which makes this skeleton a pretty likely place for the confrontation. So, could this skeleton not be that of a dragon at all, but rather the skeleton of one of the drakota who failed in their attempt to kill Nagafen? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Zoren Northwood on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR>In-game lore has Lady Vox being killed in her own lair by Darathar and the drakota, but Nagafen somehow avoided the same fate, in such a way that at least one drakota died ("But this will not stop the drakota entirely, for their numbers are many.")<BR><BR>So, could this skeleton not be that of a dragon at all, but rather the skeleton of one of the drakota who failed in their attempt to kill Nagafen?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The rule is: Drakota have hands on their wings, Dragons don't.  It's because the wings of Drakota are their actual forelimbs (making them Pterosaur like: <A href="http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Nature/Images/36_Pterosaur.gif" target=_blank>http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Nature/Images/36_Pterosaur.gif</A>) while Dragons have forelimbs in addition to their wings.</P> <P>That skeleton has has no hands on its wings, so we can only assume its forelimbs are submerged in the lava</P><p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 AM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> troodon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoren Northwood wrote:<BR>In-game lore has Lady Vox being killed in her own lair by Darathar and the drakota, but Nagafen somehow avoided the same fate, in such a way that at least one drakota died ("But this will not stop the drakota entirely, for their numbers are many.")<BR><BR>So, could this skeleton not be that of a dragon at all, but rather the skeleton of one of the drakota who failed in their attempt to kill Nagafen?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The rule is: Drakota have hands on their wings, Dragons don't.  It's because the wings of Drakota are their actual forelimbs (making them Pterosaur like: <A href="http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Nature/Images/36_Pterosaur.gif" target=_blank>http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Nature/Images/36_Pterosaur.gif</A>) while Dragons have forelimbs in addition to their wings.</P> <P>That skeleton has has no hands on its wings, so we can only assume its forelimbs are submerged in the lava</P> <P>Message Edited by troodon on <SPAN class=date_text>05-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not to mention the skeleton itself is too large to be a Drakota anyway. Just going off physical size, the largest drakotas in the game are only be about half the size of that skeleton shown there.

[Zoren Northwood]

<P>Gah, invalid HTML errors are really freaking annoying.  Quick summary of my post:</P> <P>-- OK, maybe Darathar had a dragon with him in addition to the drakota, and that's the skeleton.  If the skeleton is related to the lore (and not just a random dragon who happened to die there), the location points to the Darathar/Nagafen confrontation much more than to Lady Vox in any way.</P> <P>-- Nagafen is said to have defeated Darathar's minions by drawing on powers not his own.  Could it be that these powers allowed him to cheat death in some way that did not require him to retain his old skeleton?  In other words, could it be that he DID die, in some corporeal sense, at the hands of the drakota -- but somehow came back in the form we see now in his lair?  Along similar lines, could he have drawn on a power that allowed him to trade another dragon's life for his own?</P> <P>-- Cusashorn, are you planning on supporting your claim with evidence, or is it just another one of your stated-as-fact opinions that will ultimately be proven false like the others?</P>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

it is my belief that the "powers not of his own" nagafen is mentioned to have used to escape death is in fact the powers of Najena.  ive seen no lore to directly support this but based upon the lore ive read about najena sheis said to have made a pact of sorts with nagafen came to his aid when he was in dire need in lavastorm.  this is a logical explaination of the battle involving nagafen and darathar.<p>Message Edited by Tarkin-Wretched on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Just remember: It's forbidden by Dragon Law for a dragon to ever harm or kill another dragon without consent, so a conflict between Nagafen and Darathar could not physically be allowed. Nagafen vs. Drakota would be acceptable, but not Nagafen vs. Darathar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even in this day and age, with dragons scattered about as they are, they still have thier ways of dealing with violators.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So... whoever that dragon's skeleton may be, It's assumable that it wasn't by the hands of another dragon.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

<P>dragon law may state it is forbidden for a dragon to ever harm or kill another dragon but this does not apply to darathar given he is handler of the drakota.  him commanding drakota to kill vox and nagafen is not a loop hole in which he can escape this law by saying he did not kill them the drakota did.  he is in fact given consent due to his charge.  being a commander of troops he is connected to any battle in which they partake, hence nagafen vs darathar.  he was present during this or he would not been able to observe nagafen leaving permafrost nor know what transpired in lavastorm when nagafen survived his drakota's attacks.  i see your point but it sounds a bit like nitpicking.</P> <P>assuming the dragons skeleton was not the result of another dragon is rediculous.  its quite obvious that not all dragons  follow their own laws.  nagafen and vox are blatent example of this.  i wouldnt assume it was a dragon either though.  given the lack of information, not even knowing what dragon skeleton it is, its hard to even speculate.</P> <P>ive mentioned the najena connection before but no one has commented with lore to support or contradict this theory of mine.</P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarkin-Wretched wrote:<BR> <P>dragon law may state it is forbidden for a dragon to ever harm or kill another dragon but this does not apply to darathar given he is handler of the drakota.  him commanding drakota to kill vox and nagafen is not a loop hole in which he can escape this law by saying he did not kill them the drakota did.  he is in fact given consent due to his charge.  being a commander of troops he is connected to any battle in which they partake, hence nagafen vs darathar.  he was present during this or he would not been able to observe nagafen leaving permafrost nor know what transpired in lavastorm when nagafen survived his drakota's attacks.  i see your point but it sounds a bit like nitpicking.</P> <P>assuming the dragons skeleton was not the result of another dragon is rediculous.  its quite obvious that not all dragons  follow their own laws.  nagafen and vox are blatent example of this.  i wouldnt assume it was a dragon either though.  given the lack of information, not even knowing what dragon skeleton it is, its hard to even speculate.</P> <P>ive mentioned the najena connection before but no one has commented with lore to support or contradict this theory of mine.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's basicly what I said. No dragon may ever harm or kill another dragon without thier consent. That said, Darathar vs. Nagafen is forbidden because it would mean Darathar and Nagafen directly tearing each other apart with thier claws, Mano A Mano. (Drago a Drago?)</P> <P>As I said, Drakota vs. Nagafen is another case altogether. Not a loophole.</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarkin-Wretched wrote:<BR> <P>dragon law may state it is forbidden for a dragon to ever harm or kill another dragon but this does not apply to darathar given he is handler of the drakota.  him commanding drakota to kill vox and nagafen is not a loop hole in which he can escape this law by saying he did not kill them the drakota did.  he is in fact given consent due to his charge.  being a commander of troops he is connected to any battle in which they partake, hence nagafen vs darathar.  he was present during this or he would not been able to observe nagafen leaving permafrost nor know what transpired in lavastorm when nagafen survived his drakota's attacks.  i see your point but it sounds a bit like nitpicking.</P> <P>assuming the dragons skeleton was not the result of another dragon is rediculous.  its quite obvious that not all dragons  follow their own laws.  nagafen and vox are blatent example of this.  i wouldnt assume it was a dragon either though.  given the lack of information, not even knowing what dragon skeleton it is, its hard to even speculate.</P> <P>ive mentioned the najena connection before but no one has commented with lore to support or contradict this theory of mine.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's basicly what I said. No dragon may ever harm or kill another dragon without thier consent. That said, Darathar vs. Nagafen is forbidden because it would mean Darathar and Nagafen directly tearing each other apart with thier claws, Mano A Mano. (Drago a Drago?)</P> <P>As I said, Drakota vs. Nagafen is another case altogether. Not a loophole.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree there and if you want to say its a loophole that is "technically" true because yes in a sense Darathar is commanding his minions to do so however you can disavou *sp* that knowledge saying you did not say so with your minions acting upon their own accord. </P> <P>Actually upon reviewing what Vhalen wrote that cannot be Tarinax Skeleton since Vhalen does say the his body was placed there by ___ .  As for what ____ is I have no idea because that lore must lie in EQ1 history beyond what i'm thinking of or it could lie in EQOA history since it says he built a citadel close to a village.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Before Tarinax could be captured by his masters, he would be slain by a mortal using _____ called _____. This was no doubt a better ending to his life. The Claws of Veeshan would not have destroyed him, but whatever punishment they would have executed would have been far worse than death. Tarinax's soul ____ upon his death.  Although the whereabouts of his soul are unknown, his body now resides in Deathtoll, most likely placed there by ____, to be used as ____.</FONT><BR></P> <P>My only question is who is Najeena and maybe that dragon skeleton could be her's.</P>

[Zh]

<div></div>Najena would be a zone back in EQL off of Lavastorm and named after the Dark Elf  that controlled the place. She is seen <a href="http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=3628" target="_blank">here</a>.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Zhek on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 PM</span>

[xbraindeadx]

<div></div>Im pretty sure that skeleton belongs to Scorchwing or Tirranun.they are both dragons that resided in the lavastorm mountains in EQ1 and arent in EQ2.and actually, if i had to guess, i would say scorchwing because his skeletal structure is most like that one.   tirranun was more darathar - ish<div></div><p>Message Edited by xbraindeadx on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:41 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xbraindeadx wrote:<BR> Im pretty sure that skeleton belongs to Scorchwing or Tirranun.<BR><BR>they are both dragons that resided in the lavastorm mountains in EQ1 and arent in EQ2.<BR><BR>and actually, if i had to guess, i would say scorchwing because his skeletal structure is most like that one.   tirranun was more darathar - ish<BR> <P>Message Edited by xbraindeadx on <SPAN class=date_text>05-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dragons of Norrath came out after EQ2, so it can't be either of them as they don't exist.<BR>

[MoD1133]

<DIV>There were many dragons in EQ who wanted to harm each other but they wouldnt do it directly because it was a sacred law for them to not harm one another so they sent out mortals to kill other dragons for them.</DIV>

[Dreadfie]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div> Dragons of Norrath came out after EQ2, so it can't be either of them as they don't exist.<hr></blockquote>Once again, the expansion didn't come out until after the PoP, but the zone and the dragon faction Children of Veeshan were around for 4000 years prior to EQ2. If you need further proof of the existence of the zone pre-PoP, look at the original EQ1 map of Norrath (and all subsequent EQ1 maps of Norrath for that matter) and you'll see an area in northern Antonica called "The Nest". It was there from the beginning waiting to be opened.Those two dragons existed, players just weren't aware of them until the events surrounding Dragons of Norrath.</div><p>Message Edited by Dreadfiend on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR>Dragons of Norrath came out after EQ2, so it can't be either of them as they don't exist.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Once again, the expansion didn't come out until after the PoP, but the zone and the dragon faction Children of Veeshan were around for 4000 years prior to EQ2. If you need further proof of the existence of the zone pre-PoP, look at the original EQ1 map of Norrath (and all subsequent EQ1 maps of Norrath for that matter) and you'll see an area in northern Antonica called "The Nest". It was there from the beginning waiting to be opened.<BR><BR>Those two dragons existed, players just weren't aware of them until the events surrounding Dragons of Norrath.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Dreadfiend on <SPAN class=date_text>05-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:38 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Comming out "After Planes of Power" and AFTER THE RELEASE OF EVERQUEST 2 are two completely different things. The later of which means it will not happen because it can't.

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div>Comming out "After Planes of Power" and AFTER THE RELEASE OF EVERQUEST 2 are two completely different things. The later of which means it will not happen because it can't.<hr></blockquote>No it's not in regards to lore because the culmination of the Planes of Power caused the timesplit between EQ1 and EQ2... however prior to the split, The Nest existed on official maps and the Children of Veeshan had existed for 4000 years hidden from players. That gives it a grandfather clause into EQ2 lore.</div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR>Comming out "After Planes of Power" and AFTER THE RELEASE OF EVERQUEST 2 are two completely different things. The later of which means it will not happen because it can't.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No it's not in regards to lore because the culmination of the Planes of Power caused the timesplit between EQ1 and EQ2... however prior to the split, The Nest existed on official maps and the Children of Veeshan had existed for 4000 years hidden from players. That gives it a grandfather clause into EQ2 lore.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But that "Grandfather Clause" wasnt written into the game untill after EQ2 went live, which means it cant apply.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'll give them the fact that Gates of Discord and Omens of War *COULD* exist, because they were released before EQ2, but once EQ2 went live, that was when the split in the timeline finally officially happened and the rest is history. Anything introduced into EQlive since then, including this "Grandfather Clause" of Dragons of Norrath, cannot apply. The deadline has passed.</P>

[Ama]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR>Comming out "After Planes of Power" and AFTER THE RELEASE OF EVERQUEST 2 are two completely different things. The later of which means it will not happen because it can't.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No it's not in regards to lore because the culmination of the Planes of Power caused the timesplit between EQ1 and EQ2... however prior to the split, The Nest existed on official maps and the Children of Veeshan had existed for 4000 years hidden from players. That gives it a grandfather clause into EQ2 lore.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>But that "Grandfather Clause" wasnt written into the game untill after EQ2 went live, which means it cant apply.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>I'll give them the fact that Gates of Discord and Omens of War *COULD* exist, because they were released before EQ2, but once EQ2 went live, that was when the split in the timeline finally officially happened and the rest is history. Anything introduced into EQlive since then, including this "Grandfather Clause" of Dragons of Norrath, cannot apply. The deadline has passed.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually since we have this grandfather clause we do have a bit of a predicament on our hands.   Dreadfiend stated it was the culmination of PoP *never played EQ1* that caused the timesplit leading to EQ1/EQ2 traveling on seperate time lines.  Now since this occured because of the introduction of PoP it can be stated with more than 50% certainty that the lore/history/items etc... within that expansion can exist within EQ2.  Now that leave a 49-1% certainty of doubt as well so that we can be fair to both sides. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The nest has to exist within EQ2 because we see the ghostly Solusek Miners within SE and at the very bottom we see a huge drilling machine that is stuck at the very bottom.  I really think for something interesting the developers should flush out Lavastorm adding a whole nother level to it.  This being to a point where we can explore the area where the drill hit seeing if anyone managed to survive down there and if there is some very intriguing history behind that drill more then what we can assume.<BR></DIV>

[Dreadfie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div><p>But that "Grandfather Clause" wasnt written into the game untill after EQ2 went live, which means it cant apply.</p> <p>I'll give them the fact that Gates of Discord and Omens of War *COULD* exist, because they were released before EQ2, but once EQ2 went live, that was when the split in the timeline finally officially happened and the rest is history. Anything introduced into EQlive since then, including this "Grandfather Clause" of Dragons of Norrath, cannot apply. The deadline has passed.</p><hr></blockquote>The Nest has been on maps of Norrath since EQ1 went live. The zone and the things in the zone therefore existed without question.The finding of the The Nest and how it was found is another question altogether. Perhaps The Nest and Veeshan's Children were never "discovered" in EQ2's timeline and remains hidden to this day. That's the only thing that can be realistically argued: was The Nest and the dragons within actually discovered in EQ2's post PoP timeline. The Nest is a part of pre-Shattering Antonica whether the players "found" it or not. That can't be refuted due to the official EQ1 maps. It existed.Btw... Grandfather Clauses by their very nature are written to include things that happen prior to the particular law being enforced. So the very fact that "the discovery" of The Nest and Veeshan's Children came after the release of EQ2 makes it.... a grandfather clause.</div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreadfiend wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <P>But that "Grandfather Clause" wasnt written into the game untill after EQ2 went live, which means it cant apply.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'll give them the fact that Gates of Discord and Omens of War *COULD* exist, because they were released before EQ2, but once EQ2 went live, that was when the split in the timeline finally officially happened and the rest is history. Anything introduced into EQlive since then, including this "Grandfather Clause" of Dragons of Norrath, cannot apply. The deadline has passed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The Nest has been on maps of Norrath since EQ1 went live. The zone and the things in the zone therefore existed without question.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>The finding of the The Nest and how it was found is another question altogether. Perhaps The Nest and Veeshan's Children were never "discovered" in EQ2's timeline and remains hidden to this day. That's the only thing that can be realistically argued: was The Nest and the dragons within actually discovered in EQ2's post PoP timeline. The Nest is a part of pre-Shattering Antonica whether the players "found" it or not. That can't be refuted due to the official EQ1 maps. It existed.</FONT><BR><BR>Btw... Grandfather Clauses by their very nature are written to include things that happen prior to the particular law being enforced. So the very fact that "the discovery" of The Nest and Veeshan's Children came after the release of EQ2 makes it.... a grandfather clause.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well from what I thought the Solusek miners had discovered the Nest which occured during PoP but then the shattering occured.  It was during the shattering that the Sousek miners were punished by being killed having their spirits roam the tunnels of Solusek's Eye for all time.  The giant drilling machine can be prof of that with the shattering wiping everyone elses memory of the event.  Mortals minds are very fickled and can change over time even forgetting events.  I have a feeling what really occured there has been lost to mortal knowledge and can only be rediscovered later on through tomes of ancient knowledge.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Maybe I"m just thinking this too much and being too technical. *sigh*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll just give it one last go. I give up on this thread, so I'm just gonna try to explain my viewpoint as best as I can. If I'm wrong, then fine. I'm wrong. I'm not trying to prove I'm right. How can I? I don't know if it's actually right or wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I'm saying is that the lore in EQlive about these dragons existing for 4000 years previously and all that.. from a RL standpoint, this lore wasn't added into the game untill a point in time where EQ2 had already gone live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, The Nest existed on the maps in EQlive, but was never put in untill after EQ2 went live. I'm not saying the Nest doesn't, or should not exist. <EM>However, there was never any info or lore about what The Nest actually was untill Dragons of Norrath was released, and stated that it was a place where dragons lived. Before DoN, nobody knew what it was, or what it could have been, or speculated anything like that. For all we knew, The Nest was just the name of the lake in front of Halas, since it was placed on the map.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>But does this lore stating that these dragons have been around for 4000 years actually apply to EQ2 when the lore itself stating that these dragons have been around for 4000 years wasn't written into EQlive untill after EQ2 started?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>It's kinda like contradicting previous lore that the game was founded on. Umm... lets see. I'll use Lost Dungeons of Norrath for example. Miragul's Menagerie. I don't remember the exact specifics, so please don't correct me with semantics on this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the original story of Miragul goes on to say that while he practiced Necromancy, Wizardry, Conjuration, and Enchantment when he was young, all while keeping it hidden from the Erudite Council that he was actually studying all four by making different personas and identies and appearances for himself. It was forbidden for erudites to study more than one of the 3 types of magic, and Necromancy was... well you know the story and issues of the heretics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One could assume he spent between 20-50 years of his life studying these 4 magics. It wasn't untill later that he set out on the world to explore it. Now, it's stated that he spent at least 40 years (It is stated at least 2 Score) collecting artifacts and studying them. That would place him in the 60-120 age range. It is then stated that centuries began to pass, which means at least 200-300 (at least) years had passed beyond that, so now he's at least 260 years old, if not much, much older. Despite using whatever magical means he could to extend his life (Not necissarily necromancy by this either,) he came to realize he would not live much longer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was only then that he discovered that the Heretics had built the city of Paineel. It was only THEN that he discovered that Necromancy could be used to raise the dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets re-iterate. We now have an Erudite at least 300 years old, who despite studying necromancy for years, only now discovered that it could be used to raise the dead. It was only now, after many centuries, that he would finally attempt to create the Lich for him to continue living forever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then we get to the Lost Dungeons of Norrath Lore about Miragul's Menagerie. As stated here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://loralciriclight.com/ldon_lore.html" target=_blank>http://loralciriclight.com/ldon_lore.html</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Miragul ended up spending THOUSANDS of years before his body finally started to fail him. THOUSANDS of years had passed between him first learning necromancy, anf finally discovering that it could raise the dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, the original story doesn't say that thousands of years passed, only that centuries had passed. This doesn't mean that thousands of years did not pass, but which version of the story are we suppose to believe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, back to the original issue at hand. Just because the lore says that these dragons existed for 4000 years so far, which would place them as a grandfather clause because they pre-empt all the expansion in Everquest, does this lore apply to EQ2 because it wouldn't be written into EQlive untill after EQ2 started?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The time split happened, so that means that any lore that happens in EQlive now, doesn't apply to EQ2, Even if that lore states that someone or something existed for thousands of years in the past.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So does that mean that the Dragon Skeleton in Lavastorm could be one of those two dragons who's Grandfather Clause wouldn't come to even exist untill Dragons of Norrath was released after EQ2?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cusashorn on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[kennethlong]

Regarding the "wyrm" in ools: all my research suggest a wyrm is a dragon.  Except in soe developers minds I guess.<div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kennethlongjr wrote:<BR>Regarding the "wyrm" in ools: all my research suggest a wyrm is a dragon.  Except in soe developers minds I guess.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wyrms are dragons who don't have wings. This is... generally accepted among many types of fantasy lore in many western cultures.</P> <P>The developers seemed to have taken a step further to show that Wurms aren't nearly as intellegent as dragons or as powerful in that regard, for EQ2 anyway.</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kennethlongjr wrote:<BR>Regarding the "wyrm" in ools: all my research suggest a wyrm is a dragon.  Except in soe developers minds I guess.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>rofl, well "technically" you are right where Veeshan is indeed the "Mother of all Wyrms" meaning dragons.  However there are classifications like in the scientific order of RL animals/plants/fungi and such.  There are Dragons, Drakota, Droags *I think they go here*, then on the lowest end are drakes and finally Wurms.  The salamander type things that are classified as worms are the lowest form of draconic kind with the intelligence of a peanut, Drakes maybe a little more intelligent probably with the smarts of a dog, Droags on the other hand have intelligence comparable to humans with Drakota and Dragons having superior intellect I believe. </P> <P> As to how superior Drakota/Dragon intellect is I have no idea.  Kerafyrm from what it sounds like was dumb as a post yet had tremendous power thus we have our loosecannon/uncontrollable destruction machine. </P> <P> </P> <P>As for Cusashorn, I don't think your wrong bud and I understand what your getting across.  Your saying that since that lore wasn't even release/concieved of until after EQII it shouldn't be in this game.  But we all have to admit what do movie writters do when they want to flush out something they have already written?  They write up "Prequels" *sp* which go before a certain period of time to the original content.  Thus we have are arguement about the children of Veeshan existing for 4000 years and this incredible backing to Dragons within the Realm/Scope of EverQuest lore/series.</P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Yeah but its just the whole "The Nest" thing. Honestly there's not a single mention of speculation about what The Nest could have been before DoN came out and told us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there was something, ANYTHING, that mentioned even a rumor that dragons lived in it, I would not be arguing the point. I would accept that there are dragons down there and that they've been down there for thousands of years.</DIV>

[kennethlong]

Thanks for the posts on wyrms.  I was only able to find very limited outside information on them.  Can anyone recommend an outside source, whether online or in a generally accessible book?<div></div>

[Ama]

<DIV>Well the power of dragons is a good start :smileywink: .  But really I would start with EQ1 and looking at its lore concerning Veeshan because she is the mother of all wurms.  Basically the "Power of Dragons" discussion as I intended it has worked out quite nicely.  I wanted to investigate the actual history behind dragons, what their true power is, the ring of scale, power of the harness big D *Darathar* holds,   as well as numerous other facts including the Mighty Kerafyrm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think though with KoS we have discovered 50% of the dragon lore/history/power at best/max if I had to say so myself.  I think there is something much deeper that we have yet to discover and this won't be revealed till later on when we discover new realms.  Even possibly to the point of seeing Kerafyrm finding out what has really become of him.  The only hint Nagafen gives us is "While in Kerafyrms absence his generals bicker leaving the perfect opportunity for you to strike."  Nagafen is plotting something very foul and it is concievable it has to do with Kerafyrm but I think even the mighty Nagafen fears Kerafyrm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is also a puzzling statement when you complete the Deception quest.  Nagafen wanted to make sure the egg did not fall into the wrong hands however he did not care that it was smashed to pieces.  I believe he also mentioned he has a nest of those eggs tucked away for safe keeping.  Maybe as a further punishment for trying to mate with Lady Vox he is ordered to guard the nest of eggs and does so with little or no regard.</DIV>

[IrishWonder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote: <DIV>There is also a puzzling statement when you complete the Deception quest.  Nagafen wanted to make sure the egg did not fall into the wrong hands however he did not care that it was smashed to pieces.  I believe he also mentioned he has a nest of those eggs tucked away for safe keeping.  Maybe as a further punishment for trying to mate with Lady Vox he is ordered to guard the nest of eggs and does so with little or no regard.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>From what I gather, this nest of eggs are the offspring of himself and Lady Vox. In some lore (including dialogue in the Deception quest line and some of the lore pre-release), it is stated that after the Shattering occurred Nagafen and Vox were able to leave their prisons. They were also finally able to "seal the deal" that they had been prevented from before. They mated, and the eggs were placed under Nagafen's watch. After Vox was killed in her lair by Darathar's drakota, Nagafen was left alone with the eggs. When these hatch, they will more or less be under Nagafen's control... being that he is their father. What Nagafen plans to do with this kind of power is another question all together... perhaps he wants to take control of all of Norrath himself, much like Kerafyrm plans to do with his cult of the Awakened? This would explain why Nagafen is "wary" of Kerafyrm... he's the only force that might prevent Nagafen's plans (if those are indeed his plans) from coming to fruition.</P> <P>As for why Nagafen did not care about the egg being shattered... he stated that he has many eggs, and one egg doesn't make a difference. He just viewed it as a "Either I have that egg, or nobody has that egg" scenario :smileywink:</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IrishWonder wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote: <DIV>There is also a puzzling statement when you complete the Deception quest.  Nagafen wanted to make sure the egg did not fall into the wrong hands however he did not care that it was smashed to pieces.  I believe he also mentioned he has a nest of those eggs tucked away for safe keeping.  Maybe as a further punishment for trying to mate with Lady Vox he is ordered to guard the nest of eggs and does so with little or no regard.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>From what I gather, this nest of eggs are the offspring of himself and Lady Vox. In some lore (including dialogue in the Deception quest line and some of the lore pre-release), it is stated that after the Shattering occurred Nagafen and Vox were able to leave their prisons. They were also finally able to "seal the deal" that they had been prevented from before. They mated, and the eggs were placed under Nagafen's watch. After Vox was killed in her lair by Darathar's drakota, Nagafen was left alone with the eggs. When these hatch, they will more or less be under Nagafen's control... being that he is their father. What Nagafen plans to do with this kind of power is another question all together... perhaps he wants to take control of all of Norrath himself, much like Kerafyrm plans to do with his cult of the Awakened? This would explain why Nagafen is "wary" of Kerafyrm... he's the only force that might prevent Nagafen's plans (if those are indeed his plans) from coming to fruition.</P> <P>As for why Nagafen did not care about the egg being shattered... he stated that he has many eggs, and one egg doesn't make a difference. He just viewed it as a "Either I have that egg, or nobody has that egg" scenario :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sorry previous reply got fried :smileysad: *</P> <P>I'll go straight to my new question for everyone and that is what about the dragon power of metamorphosis.  This power has to be greater than a simple illusion that the Coercers/illusionist can create around/on a person/themselves.<BR></P>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IrishWonder wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote: <DIV>There is also a puzzling statement when you complete the Deception quest.  Nagafen wanted to make sure the egg did not fall into the wrong hands however he did not care that it was smashed to pieces.  I believe he also mentioned he has a nest of those eggs tucked away for safe keeping.  Maybe as a further punishment for trying to mate with Lady Vox he is ordered to guard the nest of eggs and does so with little or no regard.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>From what I gather, this nest of eggs are the offspring of himself and Lady Vox. In some lore (including dialogue in the Deception quest line and some of the lore pre-release), it is stated that after the Shattering occurred Nagafen and Vox were able to leave their prisons. They were also finally able to "seal the deal" that they had been prevented from before. They mated, and the eggs were placed under Nagafen's watch. After Vox was killed in her lair by Darathar's drakota, Nagafen was left alone with the eggs. When these hatch, they will more or less be under Nagafen's control... being that he is their father. What Nagafen plans to do with this kind of power is another question all together... perhaps he wants to take control of all of Norrath himself, much like Kerafyrm plans to do with his cult of the Awakened? This would explain why Nagafen is "wary" of Kerafyrm... he's the only force that might prevent Nagafen's plans (if those are indeed his plans) from coming to fruition.</P> <P>As for why Nagafen did not care about the egg being shattered... he stated that he has many eggs, and one egg doesn't make a difference. He just viewed it as a "Either I have that egg, or nobody has that egg" scenario :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sorry previous reply got fried :smileysad: *</P> <P>I'll go straight to my new question for everyone and that is what about the dragon power of metamorphosis.  This power has to be greater than a simple illusion that the Coercers/illusionist can create around/on a person/themselves.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dragons have a much more powerful illusion spell then the second generation coercers/illusionists i would guess, this is because the Ring of Scale had spies all over Norrath, even on many great councils like the Overking Bethzids council and they used this power as an advantage to voice there opinions on such councils and made there agents reason with other factions so that it would benefit the Ring of Scale.

[shadowscale]

<DIV>dont know where to put this but it seems to fit the topic. why is it all the dragons so far have to be bad and/or killed? where are the good ones? i know the two in DoF arnt really bad per say but you have to kill them and i know nagafen is to hard to kill but he isent really all that good. wonder what the rest of the RoS and CoV that dident go to KoS are up to.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shadowscale wrote:<BR> <DIV>dont know where to put this but it seems to fit the topic. why is it all the dragons so far have to be bad and/or killed? where are the good ones? i know the two in DoF arnt really bad per say but you have to kill them and i know nagafen is to hard to kill but he isent really all that good. wonder what the rest of the RoS and CoV that dident go to KoS are up to.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The dragons have never really been Good or Evil. There arn't any dragons out there who feel that they should fight for justice or anything like that.</P> <P> </P> <P>It's just that dragons are so powerful in themselves that it comes down to how helping others can benfit thier own personal goals. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong.. it really doesn't apply to dragons.</P>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shadowscale wrote:<BR> <DIV>dont know where to put this but it seems to fit the topic. why is it all the dragons so far have to be bad and/or killed? where are the good ones? i know the two in DoF arnt really bad per say but you have to kill them and i know nagafen is to hard to kill but he isent really all that good. wonder what the rest of the RoS and CoV that dident go to KoS are up to.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The dragons have never really been Good or Evil. There arn't any dragons out there who feel that they should fight for justice or anything like that.</P> <P> </P> <P>It's just that dragons are so powerful in themselves that it comes down to how helping others can benfit thier own personal goals. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong.. it really doesn't apply to dragons.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I deffinately have to agree here with Cusashorn saying dragons are like human children they are not inherently evil or good.  However how they differ is that over time they emass such power that they decide how to use that power.  Do they use it to justify their own means or do they seek enlightenment benefiting others.  However right now we have only seen Nagafen as a supposed "Neutral" dragon where by helping him out you are rewarded for your efforts.  Thats about it, vox can't quite qualify because she is well dead and you quote "fail to ressurect her" according to nagafen.  </P> <P>However like you say it is perplexing that most dragons we have seen now are considered by us to be "Evil".  There was only one dragon that I have seen that was considered rightous if you wanted to say it like that.  He resides in the BlackSpechuler *I think thats it* and is the form of a ghostly dragon that was murdered for standing up for what he believed in. </P> <P>Also thx for the info Cusashorn about the dragon power of illusion.  If I had to say anything, what i'm thinking of is no mer illusion but a "Transmutation/Transformation" into a humanoid like form like we see with the gold/silver dragons of Maj'dul.  But as to a reason behind this power no doubt it would be for spying on humans, influencing some of their decisions and the like.  I mean if you get down to it how do you know some of the past leaders of the EverQuest history book weren't dragons? </P>

[shadowscale]

good or bad it just seems all to often have to end up killing them. other then nagafen so far what other dragon is there that dosent have to be killed. would think that some of the dragons would actualy help out others rather then manipulate or control them. then agen like it was said with that much power pretty much everything becomes a plaything.

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shadowscale wrote:<BR> <DIV>dont know where to put this but it seems to fit the topic. why is it all the dragons so far have to be bad and/or killed? where are the good ones? i know the two in DoF arnt really bad per say but you have to kill them and i know nagafen is to hard to kill but he isent really all that good. wonder what the rest of the RoS and CoV that dident go to KoS are up to.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The dragons have never really been Good or Evil. There arn't any dragons out there who feel that they should fight for justice or anything like that.</P> <P> </P> <P>It's just that dragons are so powerful in themselves that it comes down to how helping others can benfit thier own personal goals. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong.. it really doesn't apply to dragons.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I deffinately have to agree here with Cusashorn saying dragons are like human children they are not inherently evil or good.  However how they differ is that over time they emass such power that they decide how to use that power.  Do they use it to justify their own means or do they seek enlightenment benefiting others.  However right now we have only seen Nagafen as a supposed "Neutral" dragon where by helping him out you are rewarded for your efforts.  Thats about it, vox can't quite qualify because she is well dead and you quote "fail to ressurect her" according to nagafen.  </P> <P>However like you say it is perplexing that most dragons we have seen now are considered by us to be "Evil".  There was only one dragon that I have seen that was considered rightous if you wanted to say it like that.  He resides in the BlackSpechuler *I think thats it* and is the form of a ghostly dragon that was murdered for standing up for what he believed in. </P> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>Also thx for the info Cusashorn about the dragon power of illusion.  If I had to say anything, what i'm thinking of is no mer illusion but a "Transmutation/Transformation" into a humanoid like form like we see with the gold/silver dragons of Maj'dul.  But as to a reason behind this power no doubt it would be for spying on humans, influencing some of their decisions and the like.  I mean if you get down to it how do you know some of the past leaders of the EverQuest history book weren't dragons</FONT>? </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I believe i said that.<BR>

[Ama]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>MoD1133:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Dragons have a much more powerful illusion spell then the second generation coercers/illusionists i would guess, this is because the Ring of Scale had spies all over Norrath, even on many great councils like the Overking Bethzids council and they used this power as an advantage to voice there opinions on such councils and made there agents reason with other factions so that it would benefit the Ring of Scale. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Amana:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Also thx for the info Cusashorn about the dragon power of illusion.  If I had to say anything, what i'm thinking of is no mer illusion but a "Transmutation/Transformation" into a humanoid like form like we see with the gold/silver dragons of Maj'dul.  But as to a reason behind this power no doubt it would be for spying on humans, influencing some of their decisions and the like.  I mean if you get down to it how do you know some of the past leaders of the EverQuest history book weren't dragons?</FONT> </P> <P>What your saying MoD1133 is that the Dragons have a much more Powerful illusion than our 2nd rate chanters.  However I added a further comment where if I had to really and I mean REALLY think about it that is no mer illusion.  It might be a whole nother thing where they can transform into the humanoid creatures of their choosing gaining those traits for a short time along with those traits being augmented by their own dragon power. </P> <P>However I agree 100% with you that the reason behind this illusion/transmutation/transformation power whatever it maybe called is for spying on people during the EQ timeline influencing the choices to suit their needs.  I mean who is to say that the dragons don't view us as insignificant pests/insects that are to meddle about on this world while they the "Chosen Beings" deserve to rule over the land. </P> <P>But as another person stated has there really been any dragon in EQ history existance that has shown themselves willingly to mortals trying to benefit the greater good?</P></DIV>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>MoD1133:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Dragons have a much more powerful illusion spell then the second generation coercers/illusionists i would guess, this is because the Ring of Scale had spies all over Norrath, even on many great councils like the Overking Bethzids council and they used this power as an advantage to voice there opinions on such councils and made there agents reason with other factions so that it would benefit the Ring of Scale. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Amana:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Also thx for the info Cusashorn about the dragon power of illusion.  If I had to say anything, what i'm thinking of is no mer illusion but a "Transmutation/Transformation" into a humanoid like form like we see with the gold/silver dragons of Maj'dul.  But as to a reason behind this power no doubt it would be for spying on humans, influencing some of their decisions and the like.  I mean if you get down to it how do you know some of the past leaders of the EverQuest history book weren't dragons?</FONT> </P> <P>What your saying MoD1133 is that the Dragons have a much more Powerful illusion than our 2nd rate chanters.  However I added a further comment where if I had to really and I mean REALLY think about it that is no mer illusion.  It might be a whole nother thing where they can transform into the humanoid creatures of their choosing gaining those traits for a short time along with those traits being augmented by their own dragon power. </P> <P>However I agree 100% with you that the reason behind this illusion/transmutation/transformation power whatever it maybe called is for spying on people during the EQ timeline influencing the choices to suit their needs.  I mean who is to say that the dragons don't view us as insignificant pests/insects that are to meddle about on this world while they the "Chosen Beings" deserve to rule over the land. </P> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>But as another person stated has there really been any dragon in EQ history existance that has shown themselves willingly to mortals trying to benefit the greater good?</FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There definately were dragons who wanted to fight for the greater good, the four crusaders.<BR>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>The Four Crusaders were the 2nd generation of Warders who were given the task of putting Kerafyrm to sleep and seeing to it that he never woke up again after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They arn't so much fighting for the general good of everyone as they are just looking out for dragon kind because they were ordered to.</DIV>

[MoD1133]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The Four Crusaders were the 2nd generation of Warders who were given the task of putting Kerafyrm to sleep and seeing to it that he never woke up again after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They arn't so much fighting for the general good of everyone as they are just looking out for dragon kind because they were ordered to.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is not true.<BR>The crusaders are protecting the whole plane of existence not just dragons. The crusaders were the the four apprentices before they were going to take on the role of the four warders, but when Kerafyrm was awoken and flew off after killing Yelinak they changed there roles to the four crusaders of Veeshan, they fight not just for dragon kind but for the second generation also. They are trying to protect and keep balance in the universe.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Really? I thought they were only just replacements for the 4 Warders. Thats good to know.</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The Four Crusaders were the 2nd generation of Warders who were given the task of putting Kerafyrm to sleep and seeing to it that he never woke up again after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They arn't so much fighting for the general good of everyone as they are just looking out for dragon kind because they were ordered to.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is not true.<BR>The crusaders are protecting the whole plane of existence not just dragons. The crusaders were the the four apprentices before they were going to take on the role of the four warders, but when Kerafyrm was awoken and flew off after killing Yelinak they changed there roles to the four crusaders of Veeshan, they fight not just for dragon kind but for the second generation also. They are trying to protect and keep balance in the universe.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wait a minute how can Kerafyrm be loose if the four crusaders of Veeshan were supposed to keep him bound for all time? Did they die during the shattering and could it be possible that the dragon skeleton in Lavastorm is one of them?<BR>

[randomname]

Just in case anyone would like to see that original EQ movie you can view it here: <A href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=ym9hIEbnijw&search=eq" target=_blank>http://youtube.com/watch?v=ym9hIEbnijw&search=eq</A>

[MoD1133]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amana wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoD1133 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The Four Crusaders were the 2nd generation of Warders who were given the task of putting Kerafyrm to sleep and seeing to it that he never woke up again after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They arn't so much fighting for the general good of everyone as they are just looking out for dragon kind because they were ordered to.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is not true.<BR>The crusaders are protecting the whole plane of existence not just dragons. The crusaders were the the four apprentices before they were going to take on the role of the four warders, but when Kerafyrm was awoken and flew off after killing Yelinak they changed there roles to the four crusaders of Veeshan, they fight not just for dragon kind but for the second generation also. They are trying to protect and keep balance in the universe.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wait a minute how can Kerafyrm be loose if the four crusaders of Veeshan were supposed to keep him bound for all time? Did they die during the shattering and could it be possible that the dragon skeleton in Lavastorm is one of them?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Kerafyrm is loose because the four apprentices ( now the four crusaders) were suppose to take over in making sure Kerafyrm stayed sleeping while he was still in his enchantment. But the second generation killed the four warders and set free the sleeper, who instantly went in a berserk rage to kill Lord Yelinak in Skyshrine. They could not have had the time to recapture Kerafyrm, especially just the four of them alone against a powerful prismatic dragon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they might have died during the shattering or something because i bet if they were alive they would be fighting the Awakened.  It could be possible the four Ancients finished them off a long time ago because they were already starting a war against each other. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Turudramin was the only dragon to speak against the Awakeneds beliefs and he was punished severly, i dont think this would ahve been possible if the crusaders of veeshan were alive to start there own faction.</DIV>

[Ama]

<DIV>One thing I have learned MoD1133 is to never count out EQ2 history and lore till the Lore gods on high say it is so.  It is quite possible the four crusaders exist now not being killed off by the shattering but having their power weekend. I have to say it would be quite interesting to see a huge Live event where we must gather essences of power from all across norrath like for the spire event.  Except these essences will be 4 different types and will be require to seal away Kerafyrm since he is running amok right now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Turudramin ya he is possibly the exception however he stood against the awakened for the original beliefs of the children of Veeshan I believe.  So who is to say those beliefs weren't corrupt as well?  But it is mostly him, nagafen, and Vox that I have seen that do not attack you.  *Vox being a small exception having 2 forms*.</DIV>

[Ama]

<DIV>Updated the front with the prevelant information that was provided by everyone.  Dragon names, Dragon types, elemental types, as well as some lore about 2 dragons within EQ2 right now.   </DIV>