Where are the chetari

[Uumuuanu]

<div>Ok,  now as my memory serves,  the dragon necropolis was infested by the chetari (the rat like creatures).   Where are they now, they don't seem to be around any more.   Were these where the ratonga came from or are the chetari now extinct?</div><div> </div><div>Anyone have any clues?</div>

[Pyrrhon]

<div></div>The original chosen creatures of Brell Serillis were the Roekillik, very powerful psionics with claws of steel. I think there was something sketchy about his creation of them, like he wasn't supposed to create so many races, so when they began to show up and overwhelm the other races, he sealed them in a magical vault.He then created another species of Roekillik, also <i>called </i>Roekillik, but far less powerful. Many, many years after their creation, when they finally began to appear on the surface, these came to be refered to as Ratonga by the other races of Norrath.There is nothing to suggest that the Ratonga of today are <i>directly </i>related to the Chetari or Paebala of Dragon Necropolis -- besides the fact that they are all ratmen with varying levels of primitivism. More likely is that all three evolved out of the second, less powerful species of Roekillik that Brell made. It is, of course, rather silly to insist that there's NO reason to assume some sort of evolutionary relation; after all, the odds of two intelligent and bipedal species of rat evolving completely separately and independently from each other is virtually nil.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pyrrhonic on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p>

[galacticdu]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>after all, the odds of two intelligent and bipedal species of rat evolving completely separately and independently from each other is virtually nil.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pyrrhonic on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Oh really, Humans did a pretty good job on this planet.   I really like that lore that a race of psionic super rats may or may not still be locked away some place.</div><p>Message Edited by galacticdude on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:37 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by galacticdude on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[Cusashorn]

<div>Knowing the Chetari and Paebala, they're still back in the dragon necropolis in Velious, if it still exists. The Ratonga are neither the Chetari, Paebala, Roekillik, or the ratment from the Hole back before it was revamped.</div>

[Pyrrhon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>galacticdude wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>after all, the odds of two intelligent and bipedal species of rat evolving completely separately and independently from each other is virtually nil.<p>Message Edited by Pyrrhonic on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Oh really, Humans did a pretty good job on this planet.   I really like that lore that a race of psionic super rats may or may not still be locked away some place.</div><p>Message Edited by galacticdude on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:37 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by galacticdude on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You misunderstood me. An apt analogue in real life would be to suggest that two different species of humans evolved completely independently of each other -- that is, they aren't just two branches of an earlier species, but rather two separate gene pools that coincidentally evolved all the same mutations over time to make them appear very genetically similar.</span>I was actually trying to anticipate and moderate Cusa's reaction with that statement.<span><blockquote><hr>Cusa wrote:<div></div><div></div>Knowing the Chetari and Paebala, they're still back in the dragon necropolis in Velious, if it still exists. The Ratonga are neither the Chetari, Paebala, Roekillik, or the ratment from the Hole back before it was revamped.<hr></blockquote></span><span></span>He's right that all of these creatures are genetically dissimilar to varying degrees, but so are individual Ratonga from each other. And an individual Ratonga shares more genetic material with the 2nd Roekillik than any other playable species on Norrath (that fact comes from canonical lore). It's counterintuitive, as I mentioned above, to assume that the other rat-like bipedals that have developed on Norrath developed from a completely unique gene pool when we know that the 2nd Roekillik eventually (over many, many years) became the Ratonga.Barring magic (a tricky thing to bar on Norrath, I admit), it is fair to assume that the Chetari, Paebala, and Ratonga all share some of the genetic material of the 2nd Roekillik, to a greater or lesser degree.</div>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pyrrhonic wrote:<div><span></span>I was actually trying to anticipate and moderate Cusa's reaction with that statement.<span><blockquote><hr>Cusa wrote:<div></div><div></div>Knowing the Chetari and Paebala, they're still back in the dragon necropolis in Velious, if it still exists. The Ratonga are neither the Chetari, Paebala, Roekillik, or the ratment from the Hole back before it was revamped.<hr></blockquote></span><span></span>He's right that all of these creatures are genetically dissimilar to varying degrees, but so are individual Ratonga from each other. And an individual Ratonga shares more genetic material with the 2nd Roekillik than any other playable species on Norrath (that fact comes from canonical lore). It's counterintuitive, as I mentioned above, to assume that the other rat-like bipedals that have developed on Norrath developed from a completely unique gene pool when we know that the 2nd Roekillik eventually (over many, many years) became the Ratonga.Barring magic (a tricky thing to bar on Norrath, I admit), it is fair to assume that the Chetari, Paebala, and Ratonga all share some of the genetic material of the 2nd Roekillik, to a greater or lesser degree.</div><hr></blockquote><p>...... I came into this topic with the intent of giving my thoughts as to where the Chetair and Paebala most likely still reside.</p><p>And then this debate just comes out of the blue. WT-F?</p>

[Pyrrhon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<p>...... I came into this topic with the intent of giving my thoughts as to where the Chetair and Paebala most likely still reside.</p><p>And then this debate just comes out of the blue. WT-F?</p><hr></blockquote>The OP asked: "</span>Were these where the ratonga came from or are the chetari now extinct?"He didn't even ask where they most likely reside. He asked if they are now extinct, and the way he phrased the question implies that he was curious about this only insofar as they were related to the ratonga.Of course, I wouldn't criticize you for theorizing on where they may currently reside, if they do still exist, despite however self-evident some may consider it. The fact is, we have no information whatsoever regarding whether or not the <i>actual </i>chetari are extinct.The point is, I responded to the first part of the question, specifically, by discussing the connection between the two.</div>

[Trepan]

Pshaw.  Genetics.They're made from mud!  MUD!  Show me the DNA in mud  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Their relation, as so far as I view the Norrathian universe, is in the mind of their creator - not in some fictional spiral staircase  (seriously, not even Erudites walk around talking about DNA and their brains have burned off all their hair!)The Ratonga are their own race, created whole cloth by Brell via the Clay of Cosgrove.   So are the Roekilli.  So are the Chetari and Paebala.  Their relationship is only the niche that Brell was trying to fill when he created each one of them.I'd think the Chetari are still alive and well.  They survived down there in the hole, and that place was darn inhospitable if you weren't already dead. <div></div>

[Pyrrhon]

<div></div><blockquote><p>"Pshaw.  Genetics."</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Point taken.</font></p><p>"They're made from mud!  MUD!  Show me the DNA in mud  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Their relation, as so far as I view the Norrathian universe, is in the mind of their creator - not in some fictional spiral staircase  (seriously, not even Erudites walk around talking about DNA and their brains have burned off all their hair!)The Ratonga are their own race, created whole cloth by Brell via the Clay of Cosgrove.   So are the Roekilli.  So are the Chetari and Paebala.  Their relationship is only the niche that Brell was trying to fill when he created each one of them.I'd think the Chetari are still alive and well.  They survived down there in the hole, and that place was darn inhospitable if you weren't already dead."</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Very well said. And generally a good post. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Of course, just because magic exists doesn't mean science doesn't exist. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, most erudites would probably argue that they're sides of the same coin. "Academy of Arcane Sciene"? </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">And in the same way, just because something is created by a sentient being doesn't mean that that thing remains in stasis, never changing from its initial form ever again. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I'm not a religious person in real life, but there is a real life analogue for this that many, many people take very seriously: the Judeo-Christian god was said to have created the first humans from clay, too. Modern adherents to this belief (which include Jews, Christians, and Muslims, among others) certainly don't deny that they possess DNA, even if they began as mud.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Evolution and genetics shouldn't be looked at as "magic of the real world" but rather natural law that it would be foolish to assume does not exist, even in a fantasy world. I mean, we assume that causality exists in Norrath, don't we? What goes up must come down? If you swing a sword at an orc, the orc will die? Just because Norrathians don't talk about DNA doesn't mean it doesn't exist. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The thing is, lore tells us that Brell created the First Roekillik, THEN created the Second Roekillik, who, over a LONG time, became the Ratonga. There's a lot of time in between to assume that no offshoots occured. And it's rather unlikely that the Second Roekillik are EXACTLY like the Ratonga of today.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The Chetari and Paebala may very well have been created seperately by Brell -- we don't have information on that. In that case, your suggestion is perfectly accurate. They share a role, or a "mold", but not necessarily anything "genetic", meaning they're not "related" in the same way we think of the term. However, in the absense of information regarding their independent creation by Brell, it's logical to assume that they evolved from the Second Reokillik just as the Ratonga did.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Just my opinion, your mileage may vary <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p></blockquote>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Trepan wrote:Pshaw.  Genetics.They're made from mud!  MUD!  Show me the DNA in mud  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Their relation, as so far as I view the Norrathian universe, is in the mind of their creator - not in some fictional spiral staircase  (seriously, not even Erudites walk around talking about DNA and their brains have burned off all their hair!)The Ratonga are their own race, created whole cloth by Brell via the Clay of Cosgrove.   So are the Roekilli.  So are the Chetari and Paebala.  Their relationship is only the niche that Brell was trying to fill when he created each one of them.I'd think the Chetari are still alive and well.  They survived down there in the hole, and that place was darn inhospitable if you weren't already dead. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Don't forget the gnolls, dwarves, and gnomes. They're all just one giant happy inbred family. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Trepan]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Pyrrhonic wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>"Pshaw.  Genetics."</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Point taken.</font></p><p>"They're made from mud!  MUD!  Show me the DNA in mud  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Their relation, as so far as I view the Norrathian universe, is in the mind of their creator - not in some fictional spiral staircase  (seriously, not even Erudites walk around talking about DNA and their brains have burned off all their hair!)The Ratonga are their own race, created whole cloth by Brell via the Clay of Cosgrove.   So are the Roekilli.  So are the Chetari and Paebala.  Their relationship is only the niche that Brell was trying to fill when he created each one of them.I'd think the Chetari are still alive and well.  They survived down there in the hole, and that place was darn inhospitable if you weren't already dead."</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Very well said. And generally a good post. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Of course, just because magic exists doesn't mean science doesn't exist. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, most erudites would probably argue that they're sides of the same coin. "Academy of Arcane Sciene"? </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">And in the same way, just because something is created by a sentient being doesn't mean that that thing remains in stasis, never changing from its initial form ever again. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I'm not a religious person in real life, but there is a real life analogue for this that many, many people take very seriously: the Judeo-Christian god was said to have created the first humans from clay, too. Modern adherents to this belief (which include Jews, Christians, and Muslims, among others) certainly don't deny that they possess DNA, even if they began as mud.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Evolution and genetics shouldn't be looked at as "magic of the real world" but rather natural law that it would be foolish to assume does not exist, even in a fantasy world. I mean, we assume that causality exists in Norrath, don't we? What goes up must come down? If you swing a sword at an orc, the orc will die? Just because Norrathians don't talk about DNA doesn't mean it doesn't exist. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The thing is, lore tells us that Brell created the First Roekillik, THEN created the Second Roekillik, who, over a LONG time, became the Ratonga. There's a lot of time in between to assume that no offshoots occured. And it's rather unlikely that the Second Roekillik are EXACTLY like the Ratonga of today.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The Chetari and Paebala may very well have been created seperately by Brell -- we don't have information on that. In that case, your suggestion is perfectly accurate. They share a role, or a "mold", but not necessarily anything "genetic", meaning they're not "related" in the same way we think of the term. However, in the absense of information regarding their independent creation by Brell, it's logical to assume that they evolved from the Second Reokillik just as the Ratonga did.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Just my opinion, your mileage may vary <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Even the Erudites are shaking their heads and crossing the street now.Enough of your crazy ramblings.  I'm going back into the pub and listen to old Man McGurk's story time.  That there's some LORE.</span></div>