The Ruins of Val 'Marr

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div>I am interested in knowing whether the Ruins of Val 'Marr in the Commonlands were meant to be the ruins of Befrallen (before they uprooted it and dropped onto Antonica)?</div><div> </div><div>The undead there are all 'fallen crusaders', and the reference to Marr in the name both suggest a tie with the Paladins of Marr.</div><div> </div><div>I'm curious if anyone has more specific information.</div>

[troodon311]

<div></div><p>From <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=1439&query.id=0#M1439">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=1439&query.id=0#M1439</a>, which gives the text from the Bootstrutter's Guide to the Commonlands quest.</p><p>"<font color="#ffff00">The Ruins of Valmarr:</font> The Ruins of Valmarr are all that is left of Castle Valmarr, built during the Age of Enlightenment to house the various orders of Erollisi and Mithaniel Marr disciples. From this castle sprang the Church of the Marr Twins, The Order of Marr's Fist and others. Much of the ruins has been stripped for it's resources, but you can still see the shape of the once mighty nest of valor. A new addition has been the 'Cavalier' statue that has been dragged here by knights no doubt who consider this to be a most sacred place bordering the dark city of Freeport."</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><p>Did Castle Val 'Marr exist in EQ Live, perhaps under a different name?  It has been there since the Age of Enlightenment.</p><p>Ardathium, (Befallen), was built at the beginning of the Age of Monuments, so it is older, and obviouslynot the same thing, but I don't remember EQ Live ever having a Castle Val 'Marr.  Did it exist in EQoA?</p><p>It <em>should</em> have had, as it was built prior to both EQ Live and EQoA.</p>

[troodon311]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div><p>Did Castle Val 'Marr exist in EQ Live, perhaps under a different name?  It has been there since the Age of Enlightenment.</p><hr></blockquote><p>No.  It's like Netropos Castle, it existed during the time period but was simply never shown in game.  No references to it that I know of either</p><blockquote><p> </p><p></p><hr>It <em>should</em> have had, as it was built prior to both EQ Live and EQoA.<hr></blockquote><p>The Age of Enlightenment was the one just before the Age of Turmoil, I was under the impression that it was the age EQoA takes place in; what with Erud having left Antonica and built Erudin (Arcadin or something in EQoA-speak)</p><p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p>

[Ama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>troodon311 wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div><p>Did Castle Val 'Marr exist in EQ Live, perhaps under a different name?  It has been there since the Age of Enlightenment.</p><hr></blockquote><p>No.  It's like Netropos Castle, it existed during the time period but was simply never shown in game.  No references to it that I know of either</p><blockquote><p> </p><p></p><hr>It <em>should</em> have had, as it was built prior to both EQ Live and EQoA.<hr></blockquote><p>The Age of Enlightenment was the one just before the Age of Turmoil, I was under the impression that it was the age EQoA takes place in; what with Erud having left Antonica and built Erudin (Arcadin or something in EQoA-speak)</p><p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>This is actually my area because I played in EQOA for a good year or 2.  Unfortunately I can't remember where exactly Val'Marr might have been.  As for as Troodon311's facts yes those are correct. </p><p>In EQOA You have a choice of starting places and one is in Qeynos.  As one of your low level tasks you are ordered to take a document to Erudin out in a commonland type setting which is savana like.  In Erudin the Erudites studied freely being conjuror, or necromancer as well as being Paladin and Shadowknight. </p><p>I think however there might be one place that corresponds with it being called the Tower of Val'mar with the castle not being built or being destroyed and filled with ghosts.  However I am not 100% sure of this fact but am 50% sure that there was a place in EQOA called the Tower of Val'mar. </p>

[Cusashorn]

<div>Not to go offtopic, but I really wish all those Bootstrutter guides would get turned into 2nd editions so that we can actually buy them and put them in our houses.</div>

[Mordock of the Highwynd]

<div></div><div>Castle of Val'Marr is known as Marr's Fist in EQOA.  It is just west of Freeport.</div>

[Ama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<div></div><div>Castle of Val'Marr is known as Marr's Fist in EQOA.  It is just west of Freeport.</div><hr></blockquote>*snaps fingers* Thats where I know it from I thought it was know as the Tower of Val'mar and i'm thinking of the tower that was just SE of Qeynos along the river area. 

[Vhalen]

<div></div><p>Castle Valmarr is a little known piece of Norrathian history. Here's a bit that may enlighten you on the Ruins of Valmarr.</p><p>Castle Valmarr was the birthplace of the greater guilds of valor that sprang from the eastern shores of Old Antonica, in a region known as The Commonlands. The vestiges of what we now know as the Order of Marr all lead to this fortress that resided within the wilds of The Commonlands during the early days of the Age of Enlightenment. In the days leading up to the Age of Enlightenment a number of knightly orders converged upon the The Commonlands. Some say they were led here by the calling of their gods, Erollisi and Mithaniel Marr, the Twin Deities of Valor and Love. Their true nature for converging on this land has never been divulged, but what can be said is that these orders did come together to form one mighty union. This first incarnation of the Order of Marr would be comprised of the great orders of The Priests of Marr, The Knights of Truth and the Order of Marr's Fist. Although a few other knighthoods were formed within the order, none would be as prestigious as those mentioned and none would be as instrumental in liberating The Commonlands from the evil denizens that lurked there.</p><p>The first structure created to house the Order of Marr would be Castle Valmarr, a hastily constructed citadel built within the hostile plains of The Commonlands. It was not an easy task to construct such a castle while under frequent assault by orc raiders, but Castle Valmarr was eventually completed in the early days the Age of Enlightenment, long before anyone would ever know the name Freeport. The castle would eventually be abandoned for more fortified structures. What remains is the ruins of the birthplace of the Order of Marr, long destroyed and nearly picked clean of what building resources it could offer residents of The Commonlands over the ages. Some say secrets still remain in the ruins, secrets that could explain why the Twin Deities sent their followers into the region and where they may have vanished to in the Age of Destiny.</p>

[Quasicroa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div>I am interested in knowing whether the Ruins of Val 'Marr in the Commonlands were meant to be the ruins of <strong><font color="#ffff66">Befrallen (before they uprooted it and dropped onto Antonica)?</font></strong></div><div> </div><div>The undead there are all 'fallen crusaders', and the reference to Marr in the name both suggest a tie with the Paladins of Marr.</div><div> </div><div>I'm curious if anyone has more specific information.</div><hr></blockquote>Befallen is what I want to see more lore on. It still makes my head hurt trying to figure out how and why Stormhold just appeared there from the other side of the continent. The world being torn asunder only works for so much and does not give a good reason for something that was on Freeport side in EQ1 to move all the way west across the see and what is now left of the Karana's.Give us more of a reason to believe that Stormhold is Befallen and that it actually makes sense to be.

[Quasicroa]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Cusahorn...</p><div>Not to go offtopic, but I really wish all those Bootstrutter guides would get turned into 2nd editions so that we can actually buy them and put them in our houses.</div><p></p><hr><p>I second this...even more so seeing that they gave us a non-book version of his guide to Ro with the LE at DoF launch.</p><p>Message Edited by Quasicroako on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:32 AM</span></p>

[Almeric_CoS]

<div>I thought there was an official lore statement a LONNNNG time ago declaring that Stormhold is not, in fact, Befallen...in spite of the well and other similarities.</div><div> </div><div>Stormhold could certainly be just another structure that existed between EQ1 and EQ2, and got ruined.</div>

[Vhalen]

<div></div>Stormhold is not Befallen. What has....umm...befallen Befallen has yet to be revealed. But it is related to Stormhold.

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Vhalen wrote:<div></div>Stormhold is not Befallen. What has....umm...befallen Befallen has yet to be revealed. But it is related to Stormhold.<hr></blockquote>(Ignoring the pak file names for a minute,) you might wanna have someone update the journal text in the BBC quest, it still says you've taken the sword from Befallen. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Basho]

The first quest npc in Stormhold mentions Befallen with his speech. (I believe its what he says as you approach him)<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Basho wrote:The first quest npc in Stormhold mentions Befallen with his speech. (I believe its what he says as you approach him)<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>He verbally voices "Befallen" even though his written speach indicates Stormhold.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Xery]

Ya, if Stormhold isn't truly Befallen, you guys kinda dropped the ball in making the transition =/  The zone layout is obviously different from the EQ1 Befallen, but still has some similarities (such as the well).  Also, as was already stated, the file names say Befallen on them, but you can actually see the real name of the zone files in-game (every now and then a patch will let a bug slip in that lets you see the zone name as Befallen on the broker window or in guild window).  Additionally, why is the Bone Bladed Claymore, an item that dropped in Befallen, now in Stormhold?  Also, why is Gynok there, and why is there graffiti with his name all over the walls in Stormhold?  (Many will remember Gynok was the rare spawn mummy in Befallen for the Paw quest in EQ1).  Early screenshots of the game that were released to gaming websites (pre-beta) showed scenes in what we now know as Stormhold, but they were labeled "Befallen" <span>:smileyhappy:</span>I think it was Moorgard who a long time ago stated that Stormhold is not Befallen, but they share a "dark link" that we will soon see.  Well, so far we haven't seen it yet, but I sure am curious where those locked doors in Stormhold go!  (One near zone-in, and another sort of gate in the caves below).I know stuff changes during the development of the game, but the whole Stormhold / Befallen thing really stands out - please finish!<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><p>I think it is obvious what happened.</p><p>When designing Antonica (ex-Qeynos Hills, and parts of West Karanas), and the Commonlands (ex-East and West Commonlands), the designers tried to balance out the opportunities available for players starting in either Freeport of Qeynos.</p><p>When designing the EQ2 versions of EQLive locations in these areas, Befallen was designed early on, the artists had already done their work on the 'new' Befallen, when it was realized that the Qeynos side needed a dungeon for it's players, and they didn't have one from EQ Live, whereas the Freeport side had one too many (already designed and ready to go)</p><p>Hence Stormhold was invented and the, (then finished), Befallen was transformed into Stormhold.  But they forgot, or were too pressed for time, to realize that many of the now transported Stormhold NPC dialogues, and graphic representations were still linked toa dungeon that had originally been intended to be Befallen (IE: the word <em><strong>Molitar</strong></em> in blood, the file name, and the NPC speech among several examples)</p><p>The dark history that the lorists back-filled was, of course, the Bone Bladed Claymore.  The backfilled lore has Lord Chesguard travelling to Befallen with the Knights of Thunder and retrieving the Bone Bladed Claymore from Befallen, and returning it to the newly constructed Stormhold bringing the curse of Opalla and the Claymore into Stormhold as well.</p><p>From the hints he has given us I think that the designers are going to 'flesh out this lore in a little more depth in the future.</p><p>It does leave one wondering what they can do about Befallen.  The Befallen they had already designed and had waiting to go was used to make Stormhold, so they will have to redesign the whole think from scratch again (assuming they ever intend to put Befallen back into the game).</p>

[Bucksno]

<div></div><div>Mary, I agree with you that what you described, both in real life game design and in-game lore is exactly what happened.</div><div> </div><div>However, there is an urban myth of sorts that has been spread aorund these boards since the day the game went live that Befallen was somehow "transported" by the Shattering or the Rending and "deposited" in Antonica. Where does this myth come from? Unfortunately, posts like yours.</div><div> </div><div>You wrote:<div><font color="#ffff00">I am interested in knowing whether the Ruins of Val 'Marr in the Commonlands were meant to be the ruins of Befrallen (before they uprooted it and dropped onto Antonica)?</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>Now even though you clearly know better, you spread the myth. Please, lets spend our time spreading the news that Stormhold is NOT Befallen, just like Vhalen said, and regardless of what happened in the development cycle or what the pak files are named let's put these rumors to rest.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Bucksnort on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:12 PM</span></p>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bucksnort wrote:<div></div><div>Mary, I agree with you that what you described, both in real life game design and in-game lore is exactly what happened.</div><div> </div><div>However, there is an urban myth of sorts that has been spread aorund these boards since the day the game went live that Befallen was somehow "transported" by the Shattering or the Rending and "deposited" in Antonica. Where does this myth come from? Unfortunately, posts like yours.</div><div> </div><div>You wrote:<div><font color="#ffff00">I am interested in knowing whether the Ruins of Val 'Marr in the Commonlands were meant to be the ruins of Befrallen (before they uprooted it and dropped onto Antonica)?</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>Now even though you clearly know better, you spread the myth. Please, lets spend our time spreading the news that Stormhold is NOT Befallen, just like Vhalen said, and regardless of what happened in the development cycle or what the pak files are named let's put these rumors to rest.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Bucksnort on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:12 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Besides. Befallen was completley encased by the hillside, and never had any physical parts sticking out of the ground. It was also only accessable from once side, and players couldn't walk around it, so the Ruins of Val'Marr couldn't have been Befallen anyway.

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><p>Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.</p><p>When I said <font color="#ffff00">"they,</font> (meaning the designers), <font color="#ffff00">uprooted it and dropped it onto Antonica"</font> , I was speaking figuratively rather than literally, but I see how it could have been read the wrong way.</p><p>You are correct about Val 'Marr.</p><p>I guess I was just wondering what it was, and the only reference point I could think of in the Common Lands area that had to do with the Paladins of Marr might have been Befallen (since Val 'Marr had not existed in EQ Live.</p>

[Almeric_CoS]

<div>More than a hillside, Befallen's entrance was encased in a <strong>sand dune</strong>....kinda surprising we didn't hear anything about Befallen in DoF, but, much like the rest of Neriak, a saga about Befallen could make for a nifty adventure pack someday.</div><div> </div><div>(assuming they make more adventure packs, which I am highly in favor of!)</div>

[Quasicroa]

<div></div><div></div><p>See that is the problem though it is a marriage of player speculation along with developement errors (intended or overlooked who knows) that add to players wanting to know more of Stormhold vs. Befallen vs. an area that could fit yet be wrong.</p><p>So that is what leaves all these odd ties and mis-speculation. Not to mention players are trying to pinpoint changes from EQ1 to EQ2 to what they know and then you have the depth of EQOA which not everyone has played so it does add to a whole lot of what ifs and was that there or not scenarios. Now don't get me wrong it can be fun and it does add to the whole whether wrong or right part of PC and NPC stories adding more depth to the environment</p><p>The pak files being named befallen, and verbal/written parts still referring to Stormhold itself as Befallen does not help the growth of player myth either. Now while granted it could be very interesting to learn the dark tie between the two(and what that magically sealed door is for in the front foyer) it still leaves a non-lore curiosity. I mean what happened that Stormhold has all these refrences showing it to be befallen at the core? Some lore better known as "behind the scenes" is also just as interesting as the lore of Norrath.</p><p>What would be really neat to see is an Official set of area maps that help show the world/changes from EQOA to EQ2 current. Something that side by side we can see how the old area maps equate to the changes of time. There is a lot here like the ruins of Val-Marr that would be neat to see roughly where they were/would been at had they been in EQ1, etc.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Quasicroako on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:58 PM</span></p>

[Bucksno]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quasicroako wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Now while granted it could be very interesting to learn the dark tie between the two(and what that magically sealed door is for in the front foyer) it still leaves a non-lore curiosity. I mean what happened that Stormhold has all these refrences showing it to be befallen at the core? Some lore better known as "behind the scenes" is also just as interesting as the lore of Norrath.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually, this has already been introduced through in game lore as Mary described above.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">The dark history that the lorists back-filled was, of course, the Bone Bladed Claymore.  The backfilled lore has Lord Chesguard travelling to Befallen with the Knights of Thunder and retrieving the Bone Bladed Claymore from Befallen, and returning it to the newly constructed Stormhold bringing the curse of Opalla and the Claymore into Stormhold as well.</font></p><p>This could essentially be described as "The fall of Stormhold". We still see its results in the closing of the Hall of Thunder in South Qeynos.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div><p>When I said <font color="#ffff00">"they,</font> (meaning the designers), <font color="#ffff00">uprooted it and dropped it onto Antonica"</font> , I was speaking figuratively rather than literally, but I see how it could have been read the wrong way.</p><hr></blockquote>I didn't read it the wrong way. That's just the thing.

[Ktok]

<div>Actually the lore is pretty clear if you read the BBC text along with Sword of Thunder and refference old quest lore from EQ1.</div><div> </div><div>No, really, it is...</div><div> </div><div>Basically, the BBC was recovered by the knights of Stormhold when they invaded Befallen and put down the undead there. They brought it back as a spoil of war, but the curse attatched to it (which was placed on it by the Blackburrow gnolls when their attempts at peace were met with the murder of their deligate by the original user of the BBC, with the BBC) spread to Stormhold and set the knights upon one another. As the knights murdered each other, they were raises as undead, and thus the curse that triggered the events in Befallen so long ago created a new haven for undeath in its new home of Stormhold.</div>

[Pyrrhx]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<div></div><div>Castle of Val'Marr is known as Marr's Fist in EQOA.  It is just west of Freeport.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Not quite sure about that.  The area just west of FP is the Temple of Light (aka Marr's Fist due to the huge Fist statue deeper within), which is actually inside a mountain and not out in the open plain, which probably correlates better to Befallen.</p><p>Castle Val'Marr actually corresponded more to the keep just north of FP that was home to Paladins and Clerics of Marr.</p>