Lifespan of races?

[Andur]

<div>I dont know if this belongs in the History and Lore area or not. It seemed to fit.</div><div> </div><div>I was looking for lore or documentation that lists the average lifespan of each race in EQ2. This is for roleplaying purposes for my characters. For instance, I am not certain that Elves of any type are immortal, or are they? And what about humans? Are they old and gray at 60 and die around 85-100 like we do? Or can they live to be around 2-300 years old as the Dunedan Rangers (Aragorn for example) from the LOTR Middle Earth? Is there any place this is documented? Or can I make my human Paladin that looks 25-30 and state he is in fact 90?</div><div> </div><div>Just curious. Thanks,</div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P><U>LONGEVITY OF NORRATHIAN RACES:</U></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=2>[AD&D Ages in Red]</FONT></P> <P>                    <FONT size=1>Child           Young           Adult             Middle        Elderly          Aged              L ong          Exceptional      </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>                                                        Adult                                    Aged                                                         Lived</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=1>Ayr 'Dal                   001-020      021-040      041-060      061-080      081-100      101-120      121-0140      0141-0160</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Half Elf[D&D]          001-020      021-062      063-093      094-125      126----------------------------------------------------0185</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Barbarian                001-013      014-026      027-039      040-052      053-065      066-078      079-0091      0092-0104</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Dragon[D&D]          001-050      051-100      101-200      201-400      401-600      601-800      801-1000      1000-1200+</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Dwarf                       001-060      061-120      121-180      181-240      241-300      301-360      361-0420      0421-0480</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Dwarf[D&D]             001-040      041-125      126-188      189-250      251----------------------------------------------------0450</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Erudite                     001-018      019-036      037-054      055-072      073-090      091-108      109-0126      0127-0144</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Fier 'Dal                  001-090      091-180      181-270      271-360      361-450      451-540      541-0630      0631-0720</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Elf[D&D]                  001-110     111-175       176-263      264-350      351-----------------------------------------------------0750</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Gnoll (?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Gnome                   001-063      064-126      127-189      190-252      253-315      316-378      379-0441      0442-0504</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Gnome[D&D]         001-040     041-100      101-150      151-200      201-----------------------------------------------------0500</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Goblin (?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Halfling                  001-025      026-050      051-075      076-100      101-125      126-150      151-0175      0176-0200</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Halfling[D&D]        001-020     021-050      051-075      076-100      101-----------------------------------------------------0200</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Half Orc[D&D]        001-014     015-030      031-045      046-060      061-----------------------------------------------------0080</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Human                   001-015      016-030      031-045      046-060      061-075      076-090      091-0105      0106-0120</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Human[D&D]         001-015      016-035      036-053     054-070      071-----------------------------------------------------0110</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Iksar                       001-020      021-040      041-060      061-080      081-100      101-120      121-0140      0141-0160</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Koada 'Dal            001-100      101-200      201-300      301-400      401-500      501-600      601-0700      0701-0800</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Kobold (?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>LizardMan (?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Ogre                       001-010      011-020      021-030      031-040      041-050      051-060      061-0070      0071-0080</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=1>Orc[D&D]               001-013      014-025      026-037      038-050      051----------------------------------------------------0070</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Ratonga (?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Teir 'Dal                 001-100      101-200      201-300      301-400      401-500      501-600      601-0700      0701-0800</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Troll                       001-011      012-022      023-033      034-044      045-055      056-066      067-0077       0078-0088</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Vah Shir                001-018      019-036      037-054      055-072      073-090      091-108      109-0126      0127-0144</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1></FONT></P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>  <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>08-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<div>Thats for the EQ Pen and Paper game guide, which doesn't apply to a few of the races in EQ2.</div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><p>It is, however, the only firm set of racial ages we have, and it  is generally accepted as being a rule of thumb for determining racial ages.</p><p>Considering the EQ RPG deals with the same milieu and races that the EQ MMORPGs deal with, it is what most people use.</p><p>It is also, (roughly) in line with AD&D racial ages as well.</p>

[Nainitsuj]

<div></div>That's also ignoring specific classes such as necromancer.

[Cusashorn]

<div>Class has nothing to do with a race's lifespan.</div>

[Lera]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div>Class has nothing to do with a race's lifespan.</div><hr></blockquote>It does if it allows that race to become some sort of lich or other undead, which even if it isn't allowed game-wise, could be possible for role-playing purposes.</span></div>

[Bleusong]

i figure..most humans live long as humans do..except those with magic in them much much longer<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> centries! go magic:!)<div></div>

[Andur]

<div></div><p>So the AD&D standard is the accepted ruleset. Excellent! Just what I was looking for. This will help me very much in coming up with background stories for the character bios. Appreciate it much folks.</p><p>So for clarification purposes...are Ayr'Dal and Fier'Dal humans? Or some for offshoot like half-elves?</p>

[Alfroth]

<div>Ayr'Dal would be half-elf, and (if i remember correctly) Feir'Dal are wood elves.</div>

[Andur]

<div>I rather thought that those would be Elvish races. That's great to know. Thank you much everyone for the clarification. I believe I have all I need to know regarding the role play element for my character bios. Looks as if 2 of the 3 would have lived through both the events of the 2nd Rallosian War, The Rending and The Shattering.</div>

[Uumuuanu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><u><p><strong><font size="2">LONGEVITY OF NORRATHIAN RACES:</font></strong></p></u><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><p><strong>[AD&D Ages in Red]                      </strong> <strong>Child- Young Adult- Adult- Middle Aged- Elderly- Aged- Long Lived- Exceptional</strong><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000"><font size="1"></font></font></font></p></font><p></p><p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong></strong></font></p><font size="2"><strong>Iksar                  </strong><strong>1-20   21-40      41-60     61-80       81-100   101-120    121-140     141-160</strong></font><hr></blockquote><p>Not sure if the above has been stated somewhere as fact but I would question these ages for Iksar.  Its biological fact that the larger the lizard the longer they tend to live.  The scientists of the planet earth believe that ancient reptiles they called dinosaurs (flightless dragons really) lived to between 400-600 years with some of the larger ones possibly living as long as 1000 years.  We know that dragons can live for multiple millenia, which would lead to all reptile based creatures living exceptionally long lifes.</p><p>Now throw in the fact that iksar are an intelligent race and capable of medicine as well as communication and I would say these are probably off by up to 100-200 years or more, possibly longer.</p><p>I would suspect that iksar lifespans are something more in line with this.  I would ask my guardian, but his past is shrouded and he will not speak of it.  (Also if you check [Removed for Content]comics,  Straha was believed to be alive(barely a child) before the empire was torn apart which is hundreds of years ago and he is no where near old)</p><p> </p><p><strong>                      </strong> <strong>Child- Young Adult- Adult- Middle Aged- Elderly- Aged- Long Lived- Exceptional</strong><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000"><font size="1"></font></font></font></p><p></p><p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong></strong></font></p><p><font size="2"><strong>Iksar                  </strong><strong>1-20   21-60      61-120     121-250      250-350   351-420    421-520     521-600</strong></font></p><p><strong><font size="2"></font></strong> </p><p><strong><font size="2"></font></strong> </p><p> </p>

[Zarafein]

<div></div><div></div><p>hmmm</p><p>1.Iksar(and lizardman btw) created by Cazic Thule, Dragons by Veeshan and  so they have nothing to do with each ohter</p><p>2.Everquest=Fantasy</p><p>3.Who claimed any dinosaur lived for 1000 years?? oldest animal is a Galapagos land tortoise, but those turtles aren't the largest ones like some crocodils( <font size="3"><font color="#ffffff">Saltwater Crocodile: </font>21</font>-30 feet)</p><p>Message Edited by Zarafein on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:46 PM</span></p>

[Uumuuanu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zarafein wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>hmmm</p><p>1.Iksar(and lizardman btw) created by Cazic Thule, Dragons by Veeshan and  so they have nothing to do with each ohter   - <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Aware, however thats why I didn't specify that iksar were any where near the long life of dragons, however it proves that reptilian creatures are capable of long lives.</strong></font></p><p>2.Everquest=Fantasy   <strong><font color="#ff0000">Aware,  again if its fantasy who says who is right?  Besides,  even fantasy uses science.</font></strong></p><p>3.Who claimed any dinosaur lived for 1000 years?? oldest animal is a Galapagos land tortoise, but those turtles aren't the largest ones like some crocodils( <font size="3"><font color="#ffffff">Saltwater Crocodile: </font>21</font>-30 feet)  - <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Noted <font size="2">paleontologist and author</font> of over 20 books on Dinosaurs, David Norman. His research suggests that on average most dinosaurs lived to be 200-400 years old with many of the larger sauropods living up to 1000 years with a minimum based on bone growth of 400-450 years.  Perhaps you your species should read up in the great library before attacking someone of an obviously better read species.</strong></font></p><p>Message Edited by Zarafein on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>/sigh Why are we iksar always being questioned by species that know nothing about us?

[AbsentmindedMage]

They say Ayr'dal have the best of both worlds but it seems that the human half in our bloodline has cursed us with a much shorter lifespan.  <span>:smileysad:</span> I knew elves were long lived but never imagined it was upwards and in some cases over 800 to 900 years. Now, I can understand to some extent why marriage with a human would be discouraged.  Having to watch as your spouce gets old and dies then the same with your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc... must be very hard.<div></div>

[Sahmmael]

<div>....bah, da Trolls live longer den dat...</div><div> </div><div>eatin' halfsies and ratsies is gud for da life... mmm</div><div> </div><div>/roleplay off</div><div> </div><div>Besides, we have the highest stamina naturally.. can't that account for something?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sahmmael wrote:<div>....bah, da Trolls live longer den dat...</div><div> </div><div>eatin' halfsies and ratsies is gud for da life... mmm</div><div> </div><div>/roleplay off</div><div> </div><div>Besides, we have the highest stamina naturally.. can't that account for something?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>It just means you just burn up all your energy and die of old age at 40.

[Uumuuanu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:They say Ayr'dal have the best of both worlds but it seems that the human half in our bloodline has cursed us with a much shorter lifespan.  <span>:smileysad:</span> I knew elves were long lived but never imagined it was upwards and in some cases over 800 to 900 years. Now, I can understand to some extent why marriage with a human would be discouraged.  Having to watch as your spouce gets old and dies then the same with your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc... must be very hard.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Indeed.  I feel for you, but thats what you get when you leave your species for another.   Thus why its a good think that Iksar are not compatible with the other species.

[RiverAssassin]

On the subject of Iksar, i've seen a few hints in game about their actual age:1) The Brood Matron in the scale yard tells you about their history. She does not say she was there during the cataclysm, but she does know alot about her people's history. I'm not 100% positive, it's been a while since I made a new Iksar, but I believe she mentions knowing an Iksar from the cataclysm. I'm NOT SURE on this, i'm not at my EQ2 comp atm, so I can't confirm this.2) The red Iksar in The Sunken City area of Freeport. He tells you about the area and what happened to the people who live there. That doesn't tell you much, but when you do a quest for one of the guards in the area, he tells you to go speak with the Iksar, because he's "seen many things in the past". Again, not an actual referance to age, but that Iksar could have been around during the cataclysm... or he's insane, that could be it too.This may or may not be true, but it's just a few things that i've noticed while running around Freeport.

[SisterTheresa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div>Class has nothing to do with a race's lifespan.</div><hr></blockquote>It does if it allows that race to become some sort of lich or other undead, which even if it isn't allowed game-wise, could be possible for role-playing purposes.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p><font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">Hellooooo Lera!  -=wavies=-</font></p><p><font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">I for one agree with almost all of the lifespans.  And I would think class makes a difference.  Wouldn't you think most warriors would die before their scout counterparts?</font></p>

[Bleusong]

i'm an ayr'dal..been around for 600 years or so<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> perhaps it's because i'm a druid, i havn't died yet<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[bit]

<div></div><p>Jumping in a little late here, but I am curious about something:  The term 'lifespan' denotes the body's physical aging and death.  But these numbers would seem more in line with the social perception of the races--they just seem really out of whack when applied to their physical development.</p><p>Is it just me thinking that any group whose young would take ages and ages to grow would quickly become extinct?  I mean who wants to change diapers for a quarter of a century? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>It has generally been an accepted convention in fantasy settings that physical maturation, (even for very long-lived races such as Elves and Dragons), occurs relatively quickly.  It is the socialization and 'world view', ('wisdom', for want of a better term), of races that spans a longer period of time. </p><p>This is not to say that a Teir 'Dal of, say, 80 years of age, is physically undeveloped or infantile in his actions.  However, he may be more likely to be self-involved or impulsive, and he may be more indifferent to larger issues, and less likely to have an historical appreciation, or a willingness to anticipate consequences, or to see clearly cause and effect relationships of events than say, a Teir 'Dal of 300 years of age.</p><p>At any rate, that is how I view it. </p><p>Since it is a fantasy game, these age charts are merely the most commonly cited and used guides, and can be accepted, modified, or rejected as one sees fit.  If you want your Iksar to live longer than the charts suggest, then there is no real reason why you should feel constrained by them.  I think a more subtle, (and effective), way of getting around commonly held convention, would be to create a story or special circumstance that explains the variance from the norm.</p><p>Just a suggestion.</p><p> </p><p>In an MMORPG, accepted convention and lore do actually play a very important, (perhaps even a vital), role. </p><p>Scholarly works on the study of the belief in myths, and magic, have tried to quantify these beliefs into a basic list of 'laws'</p><p>Frazer's nineteenth century work, <u>The Golden Bough</u>,  and the writings from the turn of the century occult society of the <u>Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn</u>, are the most widely read.</p><p>There are several dozen so-called, 'laws of magic'; but for our purpose we need only consider the following four:</p><p>The Law of Personal Universes.</p><p>The Law of Infinite Universes.</p><p>The Law of True Falshoods.</p><p>The Law of Pragmatism.</p><p>Fantasy worlds only 'work' because of these beliefs.</p><p>An individual can, and does, create within their imagination, a 'presonal unviverse', which is one of the 'infinite universes which may exist.   </p><p>In the case of MMORPGs, this personal universe is created by the designers of the game. This universe is subject to it's own laws, (true lies), which, for the purposes of the game, are taken to be true (pragmatism).  It is the acceptance of these laws that allows us to 'suspend disbelief', and immerse ourselves into a fantasy world.</p><p>We, as players, then create our own personal universes, (in the form of background for our characters, beliefs, associations, etc.), within the designer's universe, (Norrath).</p><p>It is when the laws of True Falsehoods and Pragmatism are unknown, discarded, or are not universally known and accepted, that the game loses the aspect of a fantasy world, (personal universe), and becomes nothing more than a video game. </p><p>For these reasons lore, and accepted conventions are important to the whole concept of MMORPGs.</p><p> </p><p><font color="#000000">.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class="date_text">03-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:27 AM</span></p>

[Andur]

<div></div><p>Mary is correct. You would not change diapers for 80 years as one put. The physical maturing process is quite quick and not much different between races. But the rate of degeneration on a cellular level (aging physically) and the rate of mental maturing and behavioral trends (aging mentally) are vastly different.</p><p>What may take 60 years for a human to get gray haired and wrinkly in skin with age may take a Teir'Dal 460 years and a Gnome 160.</p>

[ElctSocket]

Oh, no! If I count a day for a year, then my Wood Elf's time is approaching becuase he's about a year and a half old! Ahhhhhhhh! lol But, I don't RP with him anyway.<div></div>

[LordAdd]

<div>Actually, of all the races and their 'accepted' lifespans, the Ayr'Dal (Half Elf) would be the hardest to nail down with the largest variances in that lifespan.  To fit the profile of a Half Elf, one just naturally assumes 1/2 Human, 1/2 Elf (any of the three Elf races).  Now since the three Elven races each have a different lifespan, the Half Elf race is categorized by rounding the average of the three Elven races and then using the Human as the dominant factor.  While this may be great for tables and charts, in the world of Fantasy (Norrath in this instance), the Human gene is not always the dominant factor, and the Elf parent's lifespan (NOT the average, but the actual race) has a greater signifigance.  Thus, for example, in the pairing of a Human female with a family history of longlife, and a High Elf male with the Elf having the dominant gene, the offspring might have an exceptional lifespan of 300 years or more.</div><div> </div><div>Not all Ayr'Dal are actually half-&-half.  In fact, most are not.  Some have more Human blood, while others have a greater quantity of Elf blood running through there veins (in some cases, this Elf blood may encompass all three races!).  One must take into consideration that the Half Elf's themselves will marry.  Some will chose a Human mate which would lower the lifespan of that particular line, while others may very well mate with another of the Elven races, again causing the line to have a greater lifespan than the original union of 1/2 Human, 1/2 Elf.  Therefore, the 'accepted' lifespan of a Half Elf actually has a low-end near that of a Human and a high-end approaching the actual lifespan of the Elven races themselves.</div>

[Cusashorn]

<div>It really doesn't matter what the parent elf race was. The Half Elves' longevity suffers because of the Human mortality. They get jolted out of about 500 years because of it.</div>

[LordAdd]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div>It really doesn't matter what the parent elf race was. The Half Elves' longevity suffers because of the Human mortality. They get jolted out of about 500 years because of it.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I am not arguing the fact that Human mortality has a devastating effect on a pairing with an Elf.  That is pretty much a moot point.  But where does any lore state that the Human factor is predominant 100% of the time and that the gene pool of the Elf parent has no consequence?  For that matter, there is literally no lore on the origins of Humans.  Their lifespan is based on the longevity of our real-life span in the present time, even though in our myths, legends, and even religion, Humans lived much longer than we do today.  So is Norrath a parallel of where we are today, or is it sometime in the remote eons past? </p><p>In fact, the idea of Human 'mortality' affecting such a union implies that Elves are, indeed, immortal (as postulated by the Authority - Tolkien himself, who, taking this a step further, showed that any Elf who participated in such a union, would him or herself, lose their immortality).  Now, since in this universe, all Elven races are NOT immortal, but instead have extremely long lifespans, could not a coupling of a Human, whose family line has a predisposition for long life, with an Elf of the longest lived race with strong genes, produce an Ayr'Dal with an expected old age well into the 250+ range?  And if so, why should this be the exception?</p><p>But even if I were to concede the point that the Elf parent's race has no consequence, the second paragraph of my original post is still valid.  As the Human factor grows weaker in a line, the expected old age would naturally become longer.  The Human mortality would always be a factor, but not as strong as in a Half Elf with only one Human ancestor, four, five, or six generations removed.</p>

[Mil]

<P>Is this timeline correct? <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_timeline" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest_timeline</A></P> <P>Hm... as  my Wood Elf was born at the start of EQ1 I should be very old now. I need to update my profile that says "Born over 500 years ago in Kelethin". Because... I seem to be closer to 650 years old!</P> <P>Hm.. I need to have a talk with Lord Lucan me thinks. He seems to know a thing or two about extending life. *giggles*</P><p>Message Edited by Mil on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:06 PM</span>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Wikipedia is a site that relies on the input of others for their information.  The timeline you saw there is no exception.  It is as accurate, or as innaccurate, as the poster who put it there.</P> <P>That being said, I have looked at that timeline in some detail, and I think it is as good a timeline as you are likely to find.  I know that I use it, though I keep an open mind because new little tidbits of information and links to different people and occurances are always popping up in all the various EQ games.</P> <P>The basic problem in constructing these types of projects is that the designers, in order that they don't paint themselves into a corner, keep many lore things in the game diliberately vague.  This is especially true when it comes to dates and timelines.</P> <P>References to "At the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment', or 'Soon after the coming of the Dragons', type of wording is commonplace.</P> <P>The one exception it seems, is in regard to the Iksar, where there are some firmer reference points.  Timeline constructionists then try to reference the that timeline to other events in Norrath's history, to come up with a more precise timeline.  Such is the case with this timeline.</P> <P>That works up to a point, but not for everything that has occured in Norrath.  Often, about the only accurate way of refencing dates is to say that event 'A' occured sometime defore event 'B', which happened sometime after event 'C'. </P> <P>Bottomline:</P> <P>In the absence of any conflicting evidence, go ahead and use it.  I do.</P>

[Pahya]

<DIV>Hurrah, thank you for posting that table. I've been searching all over for that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the subject of maturity for the long lived races, I've read in various places (blast if I can find them now when I need them) that the only way to tell the age of an elf unless they are near the end of their life, is by their behavior. Even an elf of a few centuries would apear young and lithe to human eyes. Younger elves have more energy. I play my young elves to be rather fickle, having intense obsession that end quickly, to be very playful and laugh easily. Older elves would be much quieter, less likely to wander aimlessly about the world, wiser and with more grace of movement and action. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this world, I'd also imagine if you've lived long enough to have known Faydwer and the Sundering you would behave much differently than a younger elf who knows nothing of these things.</DIV>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Right, as the previous poster has stated, most elves have very few signs of physical aging.  That is why there is no age slider for elves on creation.  Once they reach maturity, their muscle tone and tan are only affected by their lifestyle (a Koada'Dal who spends all his life in a library will be much scrawnier than his sister who spends her time swinging a sword at undead).  At some point, their hair generally begins to turn white (if it was not white to begin with)  But even that is worn with grace, and their hair remains soft and healthy.  Truelly the only way to know an elf's age is to ask them.</P> <P>Iksar:</P> <P>I don't really want to get into what real world evidence supports, because parts of it go into my own personal beliefs, most of which, in any case, are not pertinant to this topic, anyways.  When comparing real world reptiles to Norrathian reptiles to come up with ages is not a very realistic cross over.  Reptiles here on earth NEVER stop growing.  That is one of the reasons that the scientist you mentioned guestimated (since that's all anyone really can do about things in the past, is guess) that the dinosaurs lived to be several centuries old.  In such instances, a chameleon could grow to be the size of a triceratops, an iguana could turn into an iguanadon.  In Norrath, Iksar seem to have a height limit of roughly 7 feet tall.  Also, by assuming that because dragons can live millenia, iksar, another reptile, should be able to at least live a few centuries, is like saying since elves, a humanoid that is even more similar to a human than an iksar is to a dragon, lives to be 600 years old, a human should also be able to live at least 300 years.  There's no correlation between dragons and iksar with the exception that they are both reptiles.  As one post pointed out, they don't even share the same creator.</P> <P> </P> <P>On a totally different note, but one that I find interesting.  Here on earth, the deffinition of a species maintains that it can only mate with itself to produce fertile offspring (ie, all dogs are the same species, a dog and a human are not), most taxonomists can tell you that the different names we have for breeds are purely for sorting them out, and have nor scientific basis.  If this is also true in the realm of Norrath, that means that....all three kinds of elves, erudites, humans, and barbarians...are the same species *que suspense music*  Luckily, there are many areas of science that have no place in Fantasy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (Like there is no way the aviaks could fly on wings that small).</P> <P>Now, something I have been wanting to express for a LONG time:</P> <P>The long ages of many of the races is why there should not be so many holes in our lore.</P> <P>SOE has us guessing at the timeline, events, and mysteries of Norrath in it's current state.  It is not uncommon for high elves and dark elves to live 600 years.  Wood elves and dwarves also live for several centuries.  There would be first hand, eye witnesses to many of the events that took place over the last 500 years.  There would be eye witnesses who could draw and tell us of the Behemoth in Nektulos, there would be people who remember Lucan as a peon in the Freeport Militia, and who more than likely watched how the Ashen Order defeated the Rallosian Hoardes while Lucan and his Militia chilled in Freeport.  Further back, there would be elves in EQ who remembered the events that supposedly happened in EQOA (and yet there is no evidence for in EQ).  First hand, eye-witness accounts break down myth and legend, since they are still alive to say, "Hey!  You got your story wrong!  This is how it went down!"   There are people who try to say that the Holocaust was a made up, and that it was a trick by the Jews, but this argument cannot hold up, since there are still people alive (aside for all the other physical evidence) who can say, "I was a boy then, but this tattoo on my wrist, and the memories I have are proof that the Holocaust was a real even."  If you wanted to know about the Rallosian campeign, you'd be able to ask elves who were here in Antonica what they remember.  But our lore seems to be limited to prodiminantly heresay and speculation....and this, in large part due to the fact that we can't ask many of the NPCs the questions we really want to know...Like when and why was N'Mar's ascent built?  How in the world could you have forgotten where Couldron Hollow was?  How the hell did owlbears end up in Nektulos?  WHAT, IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, IS THE STORY BEHIND THE WAR OF THE PLAGUES!?!  And we would know, because they were there...</P>

[Pahya]

<P>*nods* Totally agree with the last part of your post, Nocturnal. Not many people play elves from an RP standpoint as knowledgable or old as they could. People who played a young elf in EQ could very easily play the same older elf in EQ2. But for the sake of gameplay they seemed to have made most of the elf NPCs stupid.  There is the koada'dal man near the mailbox in Castleview, the koada'dal man near the Fountain of Valor, the feir'dal girl in Willow Wood sitting in the graveyard. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who know half of what most elves should know. It shouldn't be suprising for an elf to remember Kelathin, Felwith, or Neriak. Perhaps they all have chronic amnesia.</P> <P>From an RP standpoint: The lack of solid storyline and information about Faydwer in game has created a game filled with either young elves, or the chronic amnesia sort. I know myself I was wary to play an elf who would remember Faydwer because she would logically know what in the world happened to it, or atleast have a hint. It wasn't long before I just started ignoring the lack of information in game and playing plenty of elves who know their history. I've been called a godmodder before for creating an elf who remember the world before the sunddering, Tunare knows why. Good ol' vagueness.</P> <P> </P> <P>Whew, /rant off *walks off muttering*</P>

[Peloton]

<P>OK, so how long does a High Elf live that is 60% over weight, hangs out in bars 94% if his live span, drinks 13 pints of dwarven ale every 1.78 hours, and the big factor jumps in the sack with 2 ogre women, 1 troll woman, and a gnome male which is in perfect health.</P> <P>Explain that will you, :smileytongue:</P>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The answer is obvious:</P> <P>He'll live 'till he dies. (as will we all)</P>

[Big Da]

Ah but i died 6 times last raid and im still kickin' :smileywink:

[Zh]

<div><blockquote><hr>Peloton wrote:<div></div> <p>OK, so how long does a High Elf live that is 60% over weight, hangs out in bars 94% if his live span, drinks 13 pints of dwarven ale every 1.78 hours, and the big factor jumps in the sack with 2 ogre women, 1 troll woman, and a gnome male which is in perfect health.</p> <p>Explain that will you, :smileytongue:</p><hr></blockquote>I'd say about 30seconds to a minute after one of the ogre women want a "mustache ride", unless he has EB.</div>

[noed]

If you really want to play an older elf, but want to avoid the god moding label ( bah, what god moding?  we all know what happened back then, I hear tell they made a game about it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), you could always consider the fact that if something could blow apart landscape, and forever change a history, it could also produce a few thousand cases of post traumatic stress, wiping out people's memories. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[transcendant]

<P>Allow me (a RL Paleontologist) to go back to the dinosaur ages.</P> <P>Sue (that's the big t-rex in chicago) is the largest tyrannosaur ever found, and she died of old age (severe arthritis etc.) at 37 years old. Reptilian longevity is not determined by size, rather it is by metabolic rate, with things like tortoises having very low metabolisms and dinosaurs having very high (crocodiles are in the middle but closer to the dinosaur end). While no large sauropods have been reliably aged, there is no feasible way for them to live beyond 100 years, and less is more likely, since to survive they must be able to reproduce faster than their predators can eat them (and the longer lived an animal, the longer it takes to reach reproductive age). Also very long lived organisms (plants included) grow very slowly over time, meaning that they will be small and weak juveniles longer and be more likely to be killed before reching adulthood.</P> <P>So what this really comes down to is, are the reptilian species warm blooded or cold blooded? Cold blooded would give them longer lifespans but would make them physically more sluggish and reduce their stamina. Warm blooded would cause them to age and die more quickly, but would give them the ability to be active at all times and in all climates.</P> <P>This is all purely natural biology, medicine can greatly increase lifespans, and magical or divine influences can potentially increase lifespan indefinitely.</P>

[transcendant]

And yes, I do enjoy being an insufferable know-it-all.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> transcendant wrote:<BR> <P>Allow me (a RL Paleontologist) to go back to the dinosaur ages.</P> <P>Sue (that's the big t-rex in chicago) is the largest tyrannosaur ever found, and she died of old age (severe arthritis etc.) at 37 years old. Reptilian longevity is not determined by size, rather it is by metabolic rate, with things like tortoises having very low metabolisms and dinosaurs having very high (crocodiles are in the middle but closer to the dinosaur end). While no large sauropods have been reliably aged, there is no feasible way for them to live beyond 100 years, and less is more likely, since to survive they must be able to reproduce faster than their predators can eat them (and the longer lived an animal, the longer it takes to reach reproductive age). Also very long lived organisms (plants included) grow very slowly over time, meaning that they will be small and weak juveniles longer and be more likely to be killed before reching adulthood.</P> <P>So what this really comes down to is, are the reptilian species warm blooded or cold blooded? Cold blooded would give them longer lifespans but would make them physically more sluggish and reduce their stamina. Warm blooded would cause them to age and die more quickly, but would give them the ability to be active at all times and in all climates.</P> <P>This is all purely natural biology, medicine can greatly increase lifespans, and magical or divine influences can potentially increase lifespan indefinitely.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Forgive my skepticism, but how can you know how old she was when she died by simply looking at the bones, and not having any living specimens to compare them to?  Paleontologists have claimed to assemble entire species from one or two bones.  Perhaps I'm simply naive, but it seems to me, the only thing we can absolutely, positively, and scientifically say about a fossilized set of bones that belong to an extinct creature is that....it once lived.</P> <P>As for the physiothermal aspect of various reptiles, that was covered in a previous thread in which the question was, "Are iksar cold blooded, or warm blooded."  Various scenarios and hypotheses were tossed around, and finally a dev ( Jindrack (sp) I believe) eventually said that they were cold blooded enough to be quite uncomfortable in colder climates, but not so cold blooded as to have it hinder their activity.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nocturnal Abyss on <span class=date_text>10-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 PM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocturnal Abyss wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> transcendant wrote:<BR> <P>Allow me (a RL Paleontologist) to go back to the dinosaur ages.</P> <P>Sue (that's the big t-rex in chicago) is the largest tyrannosaur ever found, and she died of old age (severe arthritis etc.) at 37 years old. Reptilian longevity is not determined by size, rather it is by metabolic rate, with things like tortoises having very low metabolisms and dinosaurs having very high (crocodiles are in the middle but closer to the dinosaur end). While no large sauropods have been reliably aged, there is no feasible way for them to live beyond 100 years, and less is more likely, since to survive they must be able to reproduce faster than their predators can eat them (and the longer lived an animal, the longer it takes to reach reproductive age). Also very long lived organisms (plants included) grow very slowly over time, meaning that they will be small and weak juveniles longer and be more likely to be killed before reching adulthood.</P> <P>So what this really comes down to is, are the reptilian species warm blooded or cold blooded? Cold blooded would give them longer lifespans but would make them physically more sluggish and reduce their stamina. Warm blooded would cause them to age and die more quickly, but would give them the ability to be active at all times and in all climates.</P> <P>This is all purely natural biology, medicine can greatly increase lifespans, and magical or divine influences can potentially increase lifespan indefinitely.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Forgive my skepticism, but how can you know how old she was when she died by simply looking at the bones, and not having any living specimens to compare them to?  Paleontologists have claimed to assemble entire species from one or two bones.  Perhaps I'm simply naive, but it seems to me, the only thing we can absolutely, positively, and scientifically say about a fossilized set of bones that belong to an extinct creature is that....it once lived.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Carbon Dating is a pretty useful science for these things. They really can determine the general "Age" of a creature of when it died through carbon dating and comparing it to other samples.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<P>Knowing when it died doesn't tell you how old it was when it died, similarly, carbon dating isn't nearly as accurate if you don't have a general idea of how much carbon the creature had in it's body when it did die.  You can go out and carbon date live clams, and it will tell you they are 2000 years old, which, of course, is proposterous.  However, if those clams were to die the next day, they'd still check as roughly 2000 years old.  The few archeologists I know don't give about carbon dating, because most of it is sketchy.  Newly created rock from volcanoes dates to be thousands of years old, and many other anomolies.  But lets not get into this.  The topic of the thread isn't carbon dating, it's the lifespans of the various races of Norrath.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>I think the bottom line here is that one could present a plausible explanation for the lifespan of Iksars as being either shorter or longer, and there really is none to say which is correct.</P> <P>The lifespan chart presented in this thread is not official lore, (though it is a commonly accepted, and widely used, convention), but is merely a suggested, (rather than a definitive), reference.</P> <P>Players are free to use it or not as they choose.</P> <P>It would be nice if we could all reach consensus on <STRONG><EM>all</EM></STRONG> the various aspects of Norrath, but that simply cannot happen.</P> <P>In terms of game theory, the degree to which players are on the 'same page' regarding the Law of True Lies, and the Law of Pragmatism (above), will determine the depth of the immersive quality to Norrath.</P> <P>But, because of the Law of Personal Universes, each person's vision is unique, and will remain so.</P> <P>However, I think we really agree on many, many more things than we disagree on.</P> <P>Let you Iksar live as long as you wish.</P>

[transcendant]

A little late on the reply, but we can age the large dinosaurs based on internal bone structures. The long bones (leg and arm) of the large dinosaurs formed growth rings similar to those of trees, allowing us to determine the age at death of the animal. The rings are not always preserved however, so not all specimines can be aged. Sue is a particularly well preserved dinosaur, so aging was possible.