Time Space Theories and EQ2

[Ama]

<div>Now as many people know EQ2 has a different timeline that splits off of EQ1.  My question is up to what point does this happen and what occurs to make this happen?  Now lets first give a little background as to time itself and the theories about it. </div><div> </div><div>Time is an ever flowing event that can occur with and without you.  Time can slip through your fingers in an instance or be a slow as the movements of the glaciers.  Now some believe that time has an ever occuring theme of itself where we are doomed to a pre ordained or pre deterimend future.  However luckly for us this is not the case in EQ2 where some event occurs in the EQ1 time line that is so dramatic it can move the force of time space itself creating another time line.  This alternate time line can preposedly span the same timeline as its counterpart and exist in the same realm.  However they can never inter act with each other and thus could be considered time/dimensional distortions where you have 2 of the same item existing in one space.  </div><div> </div><div>Now enough of the scientific mumbo jumo according to stephen hawking the einstein of the 21st century.  Again I ask what caused this time altering shift in the EQ1 realm to cause EQ2 to be formed?  Also is it at all possible that since it is a split off that EQ1 entities could cross over to EQ2 and vice versa where things will dissappear?</div>

[i3ry]

I don't think Steven Hawking can explain this one in physics because its like, a video game.  The story goes Druzzil Ro shifted time and that's really all there is to it.  If they wanted it could have been a magical orange duck named Elmer that split the timelines with a coat-hanger a bowl of hobo chilli.<div></div>

[Ama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>i3ry2k wrote:I don't think Steven Hawking can explain this one in physics because its like, a video game.  The story goes Druzzil Ro shifted time and that's really all there is to it.  If they wanted it could have been a magical orange duck named Elmer that split the timelines with a coat-hanger a bowl of hobo chilli.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Heh heh true however when dealing this a game this complex you know there's more to it than that.   Sure they could just say Druzzil Ro shifted time and thats it but what about the backing of it.  Also like I said can stuff from EQ1 phaze into EQ2 or are we searching the proposed relics of the past.  Thus implying we arn't in different timelines but are in the future after EQ1 wherebye something occured "The shattering preposedly" that tore every land assunder leaving freeport and Qeynos the only standing structures besides the sealed off rivervale.

[Cusashorn]

<div>Read the Words of Zebuxoruk, a book you can find in the mage towers for free, it explains there how it happened.</div>

[IlionSturmli]

<div></div><div><font color="#66cc00"></font></div><div><font color="#66cc00"></font></div><div><p><span><font color="#66cc00">Ok, I don't know if my English is good enough to explain that, but I will try.</font></span><span><font color="#66cc00">There is a Theory that every possibility becomes reality, in different timelines.</font></span><span><font color="#66cc00">Let’s just say that you have the choice between fish and chicken for lunch, you then create two timelines that. In one you eat chicken, in the other you eat fish.</font></span><span><font color="#66cc00">Both timelines are different but because this is only a small choice both timelines will be pretty similar. </font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66cc00">No take something bigger:</font></span><span><font color="#66cc00">Back in WW2 the US military had the choice to drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nakasaki, in our timeline they did it, but in another timeline they did not. </font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66cc00">So assuming this is true in Norrath, we would not need a god to change the timelines, it our choices that change the timelines. </font></span></p><p><span><font color="#66cc00">The magic and god thingy just makes it easier to explain =) </font></span></p></div><p>Message Edited by IlionSturmlied on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:50 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by IlionSturmlied on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:51 AM</span></p>

[IlionSturmli]

<div></div><div>I also want to say, that timetravel and timelines is something that makes your brain hurt realy realy bad when try to think about it to much.</div><div> </div><div>Just the paradox thing ...... ok let's not go there.</div><div> </div><div>EDIT: Here is a relatet wikipedia entry (just in case someone is interessted in this stuff *g*): <a target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_universe">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_universe</a></div><p>Message Edited by IlionSturmlied on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:14 AM</span></p>

[DBL1230]

<div></div><p>No! It can't be; I just sent you back to the future!</p><p>No, I know; you did send me back to the future.  But I'm back- I'm back from the future.</p><p>Great Scott!!!</p>

[noed]

All theories aside, there is a clear answer:<blockquote>The words of ZebuxorukIt is my intention to record the events I have witnessed that all mortals may be given an understanding concerning the fabric of reality that we now find ourselves in. Those who were with me in that hour would have no recollection of this most important event transpiring around them. If they do have a remembrance then it is as a fleeting touch upon the mind, as if it were a feather drifting within thought, unable to lay hold upon with a hand of understanding. For the minds of mortals are a mysterious thing, even to those that make claim upon their creation.And so it came to pass that the races of Norrath gathered together in the place where time cannot be measured for it was time itself, both no time and all times at once. And here did they seek me that I may give them knowledge that I had obtained that was forbidden by the gods of Norrath. But this knowledge I have not recorded upon these pages as it is for another recording for another time and another place. And so I make a writing concerning the events that transpired upon my liberation from stasis at the hands of these mortals.As I was to impart my forbidden knowledge to them the Matron of the Art, even Druzzil Ro, manifested herself before us and forbade me to share my knowledge with them saying 'Zebuxoruk, my student I cannot allow this to happen. If you were to escape from another prison the will and power of the gods will have been compromised!' Addressing me she also spake saying 'I must set things back to how they were before you and these mortals arrived here, I believe that you cannot understand this and I am sorry.' And in so saying weaved her incantation that these mortals' time as well as my own would be returned to the place of her appointment. However, this was not all that transpired. For I beheld the fabric of time that all beings travel upon unfurled before me as a scroll of exquisite parchment. And I beheld that the parchment neatly tore in twain at that moment of the Matron's command, but not as two parts of a whole but as two wholes of the same whole each containing the same words and symbols and they continued on as before, completely unaware of one another. I then watched as one of the parchments curled upon itself for the space of time appointed by the Matron of the Art so that the parchment did not continue forward for the space of several hours before once again continuing on before me. And it came to pass that the two parchments continued on before me into parts I could no longer see, one traveling before the other and the words and symbols upon them both began to change, slightly at first but more and more profoundly as they continued on. And the space of time between them was the very same number of hours that was the appointed time of the Matron. And all this I saw before my loss of consciousness and subsequent reawakening.I now must make an end to this writing not knowing which of the fabrics of time I now find myself upon. Is it the one that the Matron made curl upon itself? Is it the one that continued on with the changing words and symbols? Or could I be on both, the one part having no knowledge of the other? In the end it may matter not but for the sake of knowledge and wisdom I have written this now so that this event may be remembered.</blockquote>(Thanks to the poster at http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=2406&query.id=0#M2406 )<div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> noed wrote:<BR>All theories aside, there is a clear answer:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The words of Zebuxoruk<BR><BR>It is my intention to record the events I have witnessed that all mortals may be given an understanding concerning the fabric of reality that we now find ourselves in. Those who were with me in that hour would have no recollection of this most important event transpiring around them. If they do have a remembrance then it is as a fleeting touch upon the mind, as if it were a feather drifting within thought, unable to lay hold upon with a hand of understanding. For the minds of mortals are a mysterious thing, even to those that make claim upon their creation.<BR><BR>And so it came to pass that the races of Norrath gathered together in the place where time cannot be measured for it was time itself, both no time and all times at once. And here did they seek me that I may give them knowledge that I had obtained that was forbidden by the gods of Norrath. But this knowledge I have not recorded upon these pages as it is for another recording for another time and another place. And so I make a writing concerning the events that transpired upon my liberation from stasis at the hands of these mortals.<BR><BR>As I was to impart my forbidden knowledge to them the Matron of the Art, even Druzzil Ro, manifested herself before us and forbade me to share my knowledge with them saying 'Zebuxoruk, my student I cannot allow this to happen. If you were to escape from another prison the will and power of the gods will have been compromised!' Addressing me she also spake saying 'I must set things back to how they were before you and these mortals arrived here, I believe that you cannot understand this and I am sorry.' And in so saying weaved her incantation that these mortals' time as well as my own would be returned to the place of her appointment. <BR><BR>However, this was not all that transpired. For I beheld the fabric of time that all beings travel upon unfurled before me as a scroll of exquisite parchment. And I beheld that the parchment neatly tore in twain at that moment of the Matron's command, but not as two parts of a whole but as two wholes of the same whole each containing the same words and symbols and they continued on as before, completely unaware of one another. I then watched as one of the parchments curled upon itself for the space of time appointed by the Matron of the Art so that the parchment did not continue forward for the space of several hours before once again continuing on before me. <BR><BR>And it came to pass that the two parchments continued on before me into parts I could no longer see, one traveling before the other and the words and symbols upon them both began to change, slightly at first but more and more profoundly as they continued on. And the space of time between them was the very same number of hours that was the appointed time of the Matron. And all this I saw before my loss of consciousness and subsequent reawakening.<BR><BR>I now must make an end to this writing not knowing which of the fabrics of time I now find myself upon. Is it the one that the Matron made curl upon itself? Is it the one that continued on with the changing words and symbols? Or could I be on both, the one part having no knowledge of the other? In the end it may matter not but for the sake of knowledge and wisdom I have written this now so that this event may be remembered.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>(Thanks to the poster at http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=2406&query.id=0#M2406 )<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Rofl I thought this post was dead and long gone. <BR>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

I have some fond memories of eq1 but my time there has come and gone.  As far as I am concerned, anything that transpired in eq1 after eq2 released was in fact fiction, stories told to children.  Since Zeb is not around to affirm nor deny the authenticy of this book that speaks of 2 timelines, Ill disregard it as the ramblings of some madman in the oasis of marr.

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>i3ry2k wrote:I don't think Steven Hawking can explain this one in physics because its like, a video game.  The story goes Druzzil Ro shifted time and that's really all there is to it.  If they wanted it could have been a magical orange duck named Elmer that split the timelines with a coat-hanger a bowl of hobo chilli.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Litle do most people know but hobo chili made from and Onion, a Shoestring and Mr. Coffee does in fact alter time and space.</div>

[Ragelin]

<DIV>in EQ1 the planes of power is where the EQ2/EQ1 timelines say goodbye to each other. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in our timeline Zeb was awoken and shared his knowledge, in EQ1s timeline druzzil reversed time to back before you removed him from stasis. (whole reason for planar progression in PoP was to wake zeb).</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ragelin wrote:<BR> <DIV>in EQ1 the planes of power is where the EQ2/EQ1 timelines say goodbye to each other. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in our timeline Zeb was awoken and shared his knowledge, in EQ1s timeline druzzil reversed time to back before you removed him from stasis. (whole reason for planar progression in PoP was to wake zeb).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not exactly. Zeb was prevented from sharing his knowledge period. Druzzil wouldn't allow it. When she turned back time, the timeline split into two ways.</P> <P>Everquest Live continued along the timeline where the adventurers were thrown back in time to the point to where they they didn't enter the Plane of Time yet, but had full knowledge of doing just that already.</P> <P>Everquest 2's timeline started where the adventurers just flat out never entered Plane of Time to begin with, and the gods had enough time to act upon this.</P>

[Daniscoox2]

<div></div>Probably a silly question but just trying to clarify:When the timeline split and time was pushed back everyone was thrown back to before they entered the plane of time.  They still entered other planes and conquered many avatars of the gods/goddesses?  Also if this is correct, then the deities left norrath because they were upset that the mortals were becoming overpowering and conquering their avatars is this correct? I'm sorry I'm not completely sure on this, just curious if I'm on the right track.  It came up in guild discussion last night and I want to confirm this.  Thanks ahead of time for any feedback. =)<div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daniscoox2 wrote:<BR> Probably a silly question but just trying to clarify:<BR><BR>When the timeline split and time was pushed back everyone was thrown back to before they entered the plane of time.  They still entered other planes and conquered many avatars of the gods/goddesses?  Also if this is correct, then the deities left norrath because they were upset that the mortals were becoming overpowering and conquering their avatars is this correct?<BR><BR> I'm sorry I'm not completely sure on this, just curious if I'm on the right track.  It came up in guild discussion last night and I want to confirm this.  Thanks ahead of time for any feedback. =)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Isn't this kinda necroing a post bud? Anyways it's best to look at the history tome *Tome of Destiny* where the gods are talking.  The humans, iksar, high-elfs, etc... were created by the gods themselves and the gods were kinda ticked off their creations grew too powerful.  It was due to this that they decided to mess with time and Druzzil Ro moved back the hands of time.</P> <P>However to me there is some controversy because the time of EQ1 vs EQ2 had 1 thing happen but is interpreted in different ways.  The parchment of time was split and 1 piece was furled in upon itself.  Now 1 parchment left alone to me means time went on accordingly while the other 1 had time rolled back in upon itself.  Also to me the "Furling in upon itself" represents the shattering with the gods punishing us for transgressing our "Role" on Norrath. </P> <P>Another way this is interpreted is the furled parchment has time being rolled back upon itself but the shattering does not occur thus EQ1.  However the parchment left to go about its buisness recieves the shattering and our minds are wiped. <BR></P>

[Kindayr]

There's already an infinite amount of timelines, every choice is two or more interecepting. The two were seperate the entire time, leading to the choice of Druzzil Ro to set back time or not to. The point where she does is the point of the intercepting timelines; each now going towards a new and different choice.And our existence consists of the cataclysmic event of two universes coliding, creating everything we know and think, every seperate instant. And the life you know, i know, they know, is made up of a random line, but not a line (hard to explain), jumping from one choice to the next.So for EQii and EQL, the event was just so cataclysmic and so great, that the time split was noticable by those greater than it (ie Us)<p>Message Edited by Kindayr on <span class=date_text>10-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:52 AM</span>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The basic conflict arises when events in EQ Live uncover some location, or bit of lore that has been around (undiscovered) since before the time split.</P> <P>In EQ2 terms these locations remain undiscovered (as yet), but ARE a part of EQ2's history.  </P> <P>Now the developers may, (or may not), leave them undiscovered forever in terms of EQ2, or they may dismiss them as having been destroyed or submerged during the Rending and the Shattering,</P> <P>However, since they predate the time split, then they are a part of Norrath's common history up to the time split.</P> <P>The opposite is also true.</P> <P>The buried city beneath the Desert of Flames, has been there since the time of Takish 'Hiz (for example).  It DOES exist in EQ Live, but remains undiscovered in that game.  The Castle of Val 'Marr, is another example.</P> <P>The more of these events and locations that are brought into each game by the developers, the muddier the waters, (potentially), become.</P>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mary the Prophetess wrote:<BR> <P>The buried city beneath the Desert of Flames, has been there since the time of Takish 'Hiz (for example).  It DOES exist in EQ Live, but remains undiscovered in that game.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And yet there is absolutely no mention of the Sul'Dae's existance in all of EQlive. Not in it's lore. Not in the game. Not even a rumor of them possibly existing.</P> <P> </P> <P>hmmm.</P>

[Ordate]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IlionSturmlied wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>Ok, I don't know if my English is good enough to explain that, but I will try.<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>There is a Theory that every possibility becomes reality, in different timelines.<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>Let’s just say that you have the choice between fish and chicken for lunch, you then create two timelines that. In one you eat chicken, in the other you eat fish.<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>Both timelines are different but because this is only a small choice both timelines will be pretty similar. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>No take something bigger:<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>Back in WW2 the US military had the choice to drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nakasaki, in our timeline they did it, but in another timeline they did not. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>So assuming this is true in Norrath, we would not need a god to change the timelines, it our choices that change the timelines. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>The magic and god thingy just makes it easier to explain =) </FONT></SPAN></P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by IlionSturmlied on <SPAN class=date_text>02-22-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:50 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by IlionSturmlied on <SPAN class=date_text>02-22-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:51 AM</SPAN></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is an extension of the schrodingers particle theory.  But it goes further to say that even observation can change the outcome.</DIV> <DIV>From your refrences Im guessing you read schrodinger's cat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the topic on hand, even though something was not in any form of eqlive does not mean the lore already exsisted in the hands of the soe staff.  I think it has been said multiple times that they are sharing with the eq2 players the font of lore that they have sitting around.  Of course since we are observing it perhaps my earlier statement on schrodinger actually has something to do with it o.O</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The cat is both alive and dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The reason there is no mention of EQ2 lore in EQ Live, (concerning people and places that HAD to exist from times even before EQoA), can be explained away by simply stating that they have yet to be uncovered in EQ Live, and that they were only discovered in EQ2 after the time split.</P> <P>They may remain hidden forever if the developers so desire, but as lorists, (not as characters), we KNOW that there is, in fact, a lost city <EM>other</EM> than Takish 'Hiz lying beneath the Sands of Ro, just waiting for the characters of EQ Live to discover, as the characters of EQ2 have already done.</P>

[AbsentmindedMage]

I suppose there are a few different view points to the nature of time.  You could view time as a river.  So if you goto a particular point along it and alter it by adding a another way for it to flow, it will flow forward along both paths.  In this way, time is seen to flow with a defined direction. So, we get to have all of these labels(past, present, future) distinguishing where we are on the river of time.  We also get the idea of different timelines (rivers flowing from the same source).You might also view time not in a linear way.  Perhaps, it is consciousness that arranges the events in linear progression so that we can attempt to understand them.  One way to think of this is usually described as the pigeon hole view.  Imagine a large wall full of pigeon holes with each hole representing an event in the time of your life.  An observer has a flash light and as they shine the flash light into a pigeon hole that particular event is realized.  So, you experience every event from birth to death but it is not in any particular order. Maybe all possible events exist simulataneously.  It is just our mind that arranges them into some persceivable way.Based on the in game lore, I think the river of time description is the one that everquest uses.<div></div>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AbsentmindedMage wrote:<BR>I suppose there are a few different view points to the nature of time.  You could view time as a river.  So if you goto a particular point along it and alter it by adding a another way for it to flow, it will flow forward along both paths.  In this way, time is seen to flow with a defined direction. So, we get to have all of these labels(past, present, future) distinguishing where we are on the river of time.  We also get the idea of different timelines (rivers flowing from the same source).<BR><BR>You might also view time not in a linear way.  Perhaps, it is consciousness that arranges the events in linear progression so that we can attempt to understand them.  One way to think of this is usually described as the pigeon hole view.  Imagine a large wall full of pigeon holes with each hole representing an event in the time of your life.  An observer has a flash light and as they shine the flash light into a pigeon hole that particular event is realized.  So, you experience every event from birth to death but it is not in any particular order. Maybe all possible events exist simulataneously.  It is just our mind that arranges them into some persceivable way.<BR><BR>Based on the in game lore, I think the river of time description is the one that everquest uses.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Time Space Theories are tricky subjects to deal with because of the possible complications/implications 1 single event can bring about.  For example say the high and Mighty Kerafyrm was some how prevented from coming into being.  This alone would bring about a completely different scenario that would be felt this day to current Norrath. </P> <P>The way I see it us "Mortals" exist within a set timeline while the gods of Norrath are Inter Diminsional/Chronological beings.  They exist within time yet they exist outside of time and that is why I theorize the Mithaniel Marr or our time is the same as the one in EQ1's time at this date and year. </P> <P>It would be interesting to see a "Time Travler" visiting us from the EQ1 side at this current date/time to see how things have progressed.  From what I have seen in game wise no one knows what the gods really did except that the shattering happened.  I don't think they realise that time and space was rearranged to the god's desires by Druzzil Ro.</P>