Lore Development to this Point

[Descolin]

So, since the launch of EQ2, what has developed lorewise? Has it moved forward much, or is most of the story development and manpower lore-wise going towards EQ1? Just curious, I am a sucker for the lore of EQ1, and hope it turns out as good for EQ2. <div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>EQ2 is slowly but surely developing it's own lore that deffinitly breaks away from EQlive, but it still has a long way to go before we'll be referencing stuff that has happened already in the game that relates to future events.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It'd help a bit if they bothered to develop lore and history behind all the classes though. EQlive has tons of stories that flesh out all the classes. Namely the epic quests and stuff like that. EQ2's classes barely have anything at all, and the Monk class is still practically the only one that has a lot (and I"m not complaining about this either. Go Monks!)</DIV>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>EQ lore is an on-going evolution.  </P> <P>The recent release of Desert of Flames has taken lore into new and uncharted areas.  A newly discovered 'lost' city that predates even Takish 'Hiz, as well as a new 'god' or 'god-king', (I'm not exactly sure which).  A new player 'race' (The Ratonga), and bits and pieces of the history of Norrath since EQ Live, leave us struggling to fill in the gaps.</P> <P>One might have hoped for more development of past (but still incomplete) story lines instead of starting new (but still incomplete) story lines; but such is the life of a MMORPG.</P> <P>The various EQ spin-offs (EQ OnLine Adventures, and EQ TableTop RPGs), are developing their own lore to fill in some gaps, however there is no over-all direction to it, and it sometimes becomes confusing.</P> <P>Add to the mix the natural tendancy of role-players (who have an over-abundance of energy and imagination to begin with), to attempt to fill-in the missing pieces with fan fiction of their own, and you have the typical EQ recipe for lore confusion, contradiction, and controversy.</P> <P>But what the heck, it certainly isn't boring, and probably adds to the enjoyment in the long run!</P> <P>Come on in, the water's fine!</P>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Umm the ratonga race has been around for ages......</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV>Umm the ratonga race has been around for ages......</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah when it was revealed that EQ2 was gonna add the Ratonga as a playable race, they tried to include the Ratonga into the lore behind the infamous Lycanthropy quest in EQOA. It was a (IMO rather lame) attempt to give the Ratonga the slightest bit of backstory instead of making us discover it for ourselves in EQ2.</DIV>

[Saroc_Luclin]

Well, they aren't the Ratonga, but there have been rat-men in EQ's history going back to Velious. In Dragon's Necropolis, there were 2 factions of Ratmen inhabiting the walls and caves of the Necropolis. IIRC, the Hole may also have had ratmen in it as well, but I'm less sure of that. (Been too long since I was in the Hole).

[Descolin]

Bah, all this talk of lore makes me want to play EQ1, but the graphics make me sick.... I played it for awhile, but quit because I just could not stand it. I'm sorry, EQ =( <div></div>

[Zutan]

Im pretty sure EQ2 ratonga stem from the Ratonga from The Hole in EQ1.  I dont remember their exact name there but they appear to be the same race.  There *is* some in game lore on Ratonga but its not quite a fleshed out as some of the other races. I too, am hoping they put in a "lore publish" that fleshes out the back stories of races, classes, cities, organizations and more info about Norrath from Shattering/rendering to present day. <div></div>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>The Ratonga dont exist in EQlive. there are "Ratmen", "Chetari", and "Paebala", but not "Ratonga".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>According to lore about the Ratonga in EQ2, they're not related to any of those 3.</DIV>

[GSOO]

The rats were also in the hole. Brell the god of the gnomes reveered the rats cause they were touched with the ability to burrown into any nook and cranny. Would love to find the hole and bits and pieces of Odus.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GSOOne wrote:<BR>The rats were also in the hole. Brell the god of the gnomes reveered the rats cause they were touched with the ability to burrown into any nook and cranny. Would love to find the hole and bits and pieces of Odus. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well yeah. I said Ratmen. The rats in the whole don't have an official faction or name, so they're just Ratmen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, off-topic, but dont forget Brell created the Dwarves and Gnolls as well. Gnomes were 2nd in that line.</DIV>

[Vhalen]

<P>Brell did have a hand in the creation of the Ratonga, a hand of the magical Clay of Cosgrove to be exact. I can tell you he was never too happy with this creation. They didn't turn out to be what he was hoping for. Oh well, try and try again.</P> <P> </P> <P>  </P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chabisu]

<blockquote><hr>Vhalen wrote:<P>Brell did have a hand in the creation of the Ratonga, a hand of the magical Clay of Cosgrove to be exact. I can tell you he was never too happy with this creation. They didn't turn out to be what he was hoping for. Oh well, try and try again.</P> <P> </P> <P>  </P> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>As a Ratanga, I take offense at that... It's not our fault that we outshined Dwarves and Gnomes so badly.Brell gets one thing perfect and then goes around not being happy about it. For shame. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dasein]

<HR> Add to the mix the natural tendancy of role-players (who have an over-abundance of energy and imagination to begin with), to attempt to fill-in the missing pieces with fan fiction of their own, and you have the typical EQ recipe for lore confusion, contradiction, and controversy. <HR> <DIV>Ah, but that's where it gets fun. If everyone could agree on what really happened and when (and why), things would get boring. Keep the lore contradictory and mysterious with different sides giving their own spin to it, and leave it up to the players individually to decide what they want to believe.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Funny thing: The gnolls were also created by the Clay of Cosgrove, and take a look at how they generally turned out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apparently, anything made from the Clay of Cosgrove ends up being disapointing in the long run.</DIV>

[Daeanor]

Lore development in the EQ universe follows comic book rules. Nothing is sacrosanct, you can't expect continuity from one world to another, and if it suits, lore can even change within a single world and get passed off as progressive revelation ("well, they didn't know what we know now"). It's the old multiverse model, which I always considered too easy a way not to have to stick to your own plot backgrounds. But in game development, it's more forgivable, since the game itself has to change so much as it develops that you kind of need a back door exit so your lore doesn't paint you into a corner. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chabisu wrote:<BR><BR>Brell gets one thing perfect and then goes around not being happy about it. For shame. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You always hurt the ones you love, right?  :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[Paganst]

<DIV>just remember... there is no spoon :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Priestbane]

<P>Uh, Deanor...</P> <P>That's not the comic book model of history.  That's real life.  All stories change in the telling.  Things that are "fact" now, would have been impossible to think of 500 years ago, and will probably be ludicrous delusions to those who come 500 years after!</P> <P> </P> <P>Adding inconsistency to your stories in a lore told through characters points of view adds depth, it doesn't necessarily mean you didn't check your own lore.</P>

[Descolin]

<span><blockquote><hr>Godstalk wrote:<p>Uh, Deanor...</p> <p>That's not the comic book model of history.  That's real life.  All stories change in the telling.  Things that are "fact" now, would have been impossible to think of 500 years ago, and will probably be ludicrous delusions to those who come 500 years after!</p> <p>Adding inconsistency to your stories in a lore told through characters points of view adds depth, it doesn't necessarily mean you didn't check your own lore.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I actually agree here, after reading Godstalk's post. Where it easier for us to pass this off as comic book style history, in actuality we can see that it is very similar to the patterns of our own history. The story changes from person to person, depending on their view. This is less noticable in todays world, because of the speed of our communication, but in Norrath they have a communication much slower (assuming they can't actually send each other "tells") which allows for the facts to be mroe distorted. </span><div></div>

[Klu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mary the Prophetess wrote:<div></div> Add to the mix the natural tendancy of role-players (who have an over-abundance of energy and imagination to begin with), to attempt to fill-in the missing pieces with fan fiction of their own, and you have the typical EQ recipe for lore confusion, contradiction, and controversy.<hr></blockquote>Sounds like real history in every way.</span><div></div>

[Descolin]

Thanks for the help guys, I am feeling a bit more caught up as far as the lore.

[Duhulk]

<DIV>Interesting...</DIV> <DIV>I seem to find myself rather ignorant of a seemingly important historical item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the Clay of Cosgrove?</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>A magical clay that Brell Serilis used to create the Ratonga and Gnolls out of. It doesn't exist in the games. Just in the lore.</DIV>

[Anzak]

I remember reading something about the clay being used to create some guardians for something.  They were built in a land where no one could live and one of the sculpters lived by creating a copy of himself from the clay.  I just can't remember where I read that now. <div></div>

[Saroc_Luclin]

That was outlined in one of the posts here on the boards. Either this thread, or the thread about the Gods (the "Other worlds" t hread), or one of the other ones. It should still be on the front page here somewhere. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />What is sort've curious is how popular the animated golems have become on Norrath in 'recent' times.In EQLive, with Gates of Discord, we discovered a race (the Taelosians) who are either their own lineage, a lost clan of goblins or a lost race of elves (no one is sure which). They specialized in Earth shaping and animating earth, especially their constructs. Taelosia, and Ruined City of Dranik (where the original port to Norrath was on Kuaa) are overflowing with the Taelosian animated constructs. So I'm a little curious if the ancient story about the sculptors mentionned in EQII might be related to the Taelosians, before they crossed the Abysmal Sea.On the other hand, with Dragons of Norrath, we find that the Dragons, or maybe agents of the Dragons (which include curiously enough, goblins who are gardeners and similar workers of nature, hence a possible link between the Taelosians and Goblins, but I digress) have also been building and using animated statues for their protection and use in those dragon lands. These animations seem more refined than the Taelosian ones in some ways, but I still wonder if there was a link somehow there too; maybe just a sharing of knowledge?Anyways, that's just some curious simularities I've noticed. Most likely unrelated but curious nonetheless.

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>I think the Taelosians are neither elves or goblins. Just Taelosians. From EQ2's timeline though, Gates of Discord, Omens of War, and Dragons of Norrath never existed or happened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see Taelosians in EQ2 though. I thought they were cool. Can do without the Muramites though.</DIV>

[Mordock of the Highwynd]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Funny thing: The gnolls were also created by the Clay of Cosgrove, and take a look at how they generally turned out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apparently, anything made from the Clay of Cosgrove ends up being disapointing in the long run.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, the gnolls are pretty clever and might have been friendly towards other humanoid races if Gynok Moltar hadn't screwed up and cut Opalla's hand off with the Bone Bladed Claymore.</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Funny thing: The gnolls were also created by the Clay of Cosgrove, and take a look at how they generally turned out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apparently, anything made from the Clay of Cosgrove ends up being disapointing in the long run.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, the gnolls are pretty clever and might have been friendly towards other humanoid races if Gynok Moltar hadn't screwed up and cut Opalla's hand off with the Bone Bladed Claymore.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You speak as if that was the only factor why they're malevolent. It's true that the Gnolls are basicly the "Native Americans" of Norrath (if the Blackburrow music has anything to say about it.) They were pretty peaceful in thier own right, but the other mortal races started encroaching on thier territory and looked down at them as savages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, The Blackburrow Gnolls, the Splitpaw Gnolls, and the Tesch'Mal gnolls of Torn Ear who took over Splitpaw are all pretty aggressive (especially the Torn Ear tribe) towards most creatures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This is EQlive lore btw. I'm not refering to the gnolls in Splitpaw now.)</DIV>

[Saroc_Luclin]

True, but the Ice clad Gnolls and the Brell Gnolls (in Jagged Pine forest) were very peaceful folks in general. My cleric hangs out with them when he stops by.The other gnolls in Jaggedpine however were NASTY. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Trepan]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote: <div>Apparently, anything made from the Clay of Cosgrove ends up being disapointing in the long run.</div><hr></blockquote>Not sure that anyone else has noticed this OOC fact, but.... Danger Mouse was created by Cosgrove.   Brian Cosgrove the animator <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oo, Eck, Ratonga!</span><div></div>

[Mordock of the Highwynd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Funny thing: The gnolls were also created by the Clay of Cosgrove, and take a look at how they generally turned out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apparently, anything made from the Clay of Cosgrove ends up being disapointing in the long run.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, the gnolls are pretty clever and might have been friendly towards other humanoid races if Gynok Moltar hadn't screwed up and cut Opalla's hand off with the Bone Bladed Claymore.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You speak as if that was the only factor why they're malevolent. It's true that the Gnolls are basicly the "Native Americans" of Norrath (if the Blackburrow music has anything to say about it.) They were pretty peaceful in thier own right, but the other mortal races started encroaching on thier territory and looked down at them as savages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, The Blackburrow Gnolls, the Splitpaw Gnolls, and the Tesch'Mal gnolls of Torn Ear who took over Splitpaw are all pretty aggressive (especially the Torn Ear tribe) towards most creatures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This is EQlive lore btw. I'm not refering to the gnolls in Splitpaw now.)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, I see.  I thought the only factor was the elder's hand getting cut off.  I also wasn't thinking about the Splitpaw and Tesch'Mal gnolls when I typed out my message.  My bad.<BR>

[Vhalen]

<P>On Cosgrove:</P> <P> </P> <P>Cosgrove is a little known myth in the EQ universe. And it goes something like this:</P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Cosgrove is a spectacled female gnome that resides within a clay canyon within the Plane of Underfoot. By Brell, she is charged the duty of sculpting the shapes of all creatures that spawn from the will of Brell. The small clay dolls are then adorned with some other component related to the desired race and finally given life through the hands of Brell. Every creature created through this means can be eradicated in an instant with but a crushing blow upon the clay doll. The dolls that represent the multitude of Underfoot races all reside within a single massive hall of shelves. This hall is deep within the massive clay fortress of Cosgrove. The clay used is from the canyon and can only be found therein. It is the magical Clay of Cosgrove.</FONT></SPAN></P>

[troodon311]

Neato

[Saroc_Luclin]

Man, I SO want to see the Plane of Underfoot sometime, either in EQII or EQLive. *sigh*

[Fizwi]

<div></div>Imagine...mess up a raid and every gnome on Norrath is eradicated.NO THANK YOU, KEEP THE UNDERFOOT SEALED!<span>:smileysurprised:(unless We somehow came about in another manner.  In which case, go ahead, eradicate the gnolls please.)</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Fizwick on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 PM</span>

[Saroc_Luclin]

It would be a neat concept for a raid. Part of the zone or a sub zone could be a castle, fight throuhg it to the clay protector of each mob type and destroy it, and its down for a few hours or so (or the rest of the instance), making it easier for you to progress (if you chose not to destroy the clay figures, the trash to get through to the rest of the targets will be increased with mob types of the ones you left full).Maybe make it a timed event, to make people decide if they want to destroy the Local Gnoll figure or the Local Golem figure or split your forces and try to do both in the time limit.

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fizwick wrote:<BR> Imagine...mess up a raid and every gnome on Norrath is eradicated.<BR><BR>NO THANK YOU, KEEP THE UNDERFOOT SEALED!<BR><BR><SPAN>:smileysurprised:<BR><BR>(unless We somehow came about in another manner.  In which case, go ahead, eradicate the gnolls please.)<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Fizwick on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:42 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm all for the eradication of the gnomes. Who's with me? Come on we can form up a raid. It can't be that hard to destroy a clay doll.</DIV>

[Signal9]

<DIV>You would run the risk of never again tasting a delicious gnome-kabob?!  Sacrilege!</DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Signal9 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You would run the risk of never again tasting a delicious gnome-kabob?!  Sacrilege!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's what all the thousands of gnome corpses left around would be for.</DIV>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fizwick wrote:<BR> Imagine...mess up a raid and every gnome on Norrath is eradicated.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>what a wonderful world it would be!!</DIV>

[Duhulk]

<DIV>Thanks Vhalen =).</DIV>

[Teasatchel]

<DIV>Having not played EQLive, I am somewhat depressed that I didn't get into what was an obviously lore-wealthy world!  I love the EQ2 though, precisely for that reason, thanks for the bit on Cosgrove, Vhalen.  I chose Ratonga and am having a  hard time finding Lore (more than the History book) about my kin...  There were Roekillik, I remember some bit about them being cousins to we Ratonga, though .. obviously less intelligent kin, they.<BR><BR>Omie Weydsmoukir, Assassin/Alchy, Lucan D'lere<BR></DIV>

[Vhalen]

<P>The Ratonga and Roekillik connection should be hinted at in the near future. It may not be truly accurate to assume that the Roekillik are not as bright as the Ratonga. Their differences have to due with their origin deep within the... oh wait... can't get into that yet. Let's just say the Ratonga have been operating under the gaze of Ro (the sun, not the deity) a bit longer than the Roekillik. The Roekillik may not be happy about this for some reason.</P> <P>Have a Happy Quattrain (If you are new thinker among the gnomes that follows the Starpyre Calendar, if not then have a Happy New Year.)</P>

[CrazyGuy]

<div></div><div></div>As Teir'Dal i want to know more about the sealing of Neriak, i just cant find enough lore that satisfy my hunger <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also i kinda feel bad that i cant  get my  faction with the Thexians up. Vazquez is a remnant of EQ1 so she is still dedicated to Father Innoruuk. She survived all the strugle and shattering. (Working on her BG story, is 3 chapters long so far, so i want all the info i can get on Sealing) She wants to get back to Neriak as her home, not to the Ruins. (Kinda hate it that you get to kill DE instead of Gnomes) *******update****** i ran into the new Revamped Fallen Gate yesterday and i love those Thexian Excavaters, they are opening the Sealed gate <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cant wait to see what will happen, i hope there is a sort of City part in there that Teir'Dal can go back to make your home there and Writ system and stuff <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <div></div><p>Message Edited by CrazyGuy on <span class="date_text">01-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:33 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by CrazyGuy on <span class=date_text>01-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:33 PM</span>

[Daeanor]

<blockquote><hr>Godstalk wrote:<P>Uh, Deanor...</P> <P>That's not the comic book model of history. That's real life. All stories change in the telling. Things that are "fact" now, would have been impossible to think of 500 years ago, and will probably be ludicrous delusions to those who come 500 years after!</P> <P> </P> <P>Adding inconsistency to your stories in a lore told through characters points of view adds depth, it doesn't necessarily mean you didn't check your own lore.</P> <hr></blockquote>Except for one thing. EQ2 accepted history is dramatically different from accepted EQLive lore. It was explained as the two Norrath's not being "on the same timeline" post the PoP expansion (maybe earlier, I forget) in EQLive. It's not the <i>same</i> Norrath, it's an alternate universe. Comic book rules. I'm not extrapolating based on guesswork and inconsistency, this was stated officially somewhere. They ain't really the same place.