tier' dal

[srtubagi]

<DIV>Ive noticed that of all the purely evil races in freeport...strictly according to Sony eq lore...it seems dark elves have the biggest tendancy to go good. I suppose unlike the other evil races there are traces of good in them from their origin. Of course i dont mean in game...but my examples are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/lore.vm?section=chapter_11" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/lore.vm?section=chapter_11</A></DIV> <DIV>Besides the fact that the dark elf girl fell in love and is considering going to qeynos to marry him...her father who is very definately evil shows very clearly that altho he feels betrayed at the end he loves his daughter and holds no grudge against the man. "See that they find a room in an inn," "Make sure no harm comes to them," Shows that he wants safety for his daughters lover as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1778" target=_blank>http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1778</A></DIV> <DIV>Dark elf is obviously on the good side with the gnome and human against the three obvious evil races. Not to mention shes a ranger:smileywink: like me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i guess even thru innoruk's torture a little bit of elf shines through and they have a higher tendancy to be good. I suppose evil is in the eye of the beholder...its all based off of religion anyway...just like the crusades. Then again their gods are wishing pain on others instead of just wishing for their religion to be spread. Of course i think as far as player characters go...iksar are probaby most betrayed because tey look freakin awesome. </DIV><p>Message Edited by srtubagirl on <span class=date_text>07-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:36 AM</span>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>They don't have the Tendancy to go good. People think the dark elves look the best among the evil races and they want to be good. its the player's choice, not the race's.</DIV>

[srtubagi]

<DIV>Thats why i specified situations that Sony wrote about, i was not talking about player characters. </DIV>

[Nyven]

Out of every Teir`Dal that has ever existed, only a small few have been shown in SOE lore bits to have acted such a way, so I would not say they have a tendency to go good.  There will always be occassions in roleplaying where it happens (perhaps more than it should though), but the majority do not act in such a way.

[Armill]

Yeah, tier dal are inhernentaly evil, i mean come on Innoruuk like captured two high elves (if i remember right) and torutered them until they became twisted manical synical beings, and for the traitors to the overlord someday they will find themselves on the end of my blade.

[SoulofMorrig]

<P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>It is the undoubted truth that what drives the souls of the Teir'Dal is the Hatred that runs through their veins.  The examples of the traitors to our race that are listed in these fragments of Lore are not a clear vision, nor representation of our race.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>In the Lore which you site, it is quite clear that the general thought and belief in regards to the daughter's relationship with this wretched Queynosian is one of the utmost approval.  The fact that the father makes such a foolish decision to let them leave with their lives is one of his own mistakes, one that I am sure he will pay for in the end.  Perhaps he is seeking to cover up his own failure in allowing this to occur?  Perhaps he is not willing to face the retribution that he would face at the knowledge of such occuring within his own family?  Or as you said perhaps it is the love he feels for his daughter.  Love is not a feeling unknown to the Teir'Dal.  Though perhaps through misconceptions of outsiders, it still occurs in a different manner perhaps than is used by the other races.  It seems many overlook the fact that though Hatred guides the Teir'Dal, it is not the only emotion that they posess.  We still hold all realm of emotion as we are creatures of this physical realm.  It is just Hatred that we are best known for.  </FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>I agree with Cusashorn in her thoughts as well.  It is the individual player that makes these mistakes which become glued to our race.  Realistically if you were to encounter a Teir'Dal, I am sure that you would instantly dislike them.  Your thoughts would be guided by the racial hatred you hold for them as well as the treatment you would receive.  The fact that so many player characters do not roleplay their Teir'Dal as if they were "the embodiment of evil and maliciousness" may be hindering some perception of the race. </FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>How many times have you seen a Teir'Dal in an intermingled group?  Would that really ever happen?  Highly unlikely.  If all Teir'Dal where roleplayed as their description no one would be grouping with them, nor would that Teir'Dal group with them in return.  It would not be a happy time.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>But I see your point as well, and unfortunately those tidbits of Lore will never change the true view of our race.  </FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>At least let's hope not  :smileywink:</FONT></STRONG></P>

[srtubagi]

Very good points Morrigan :smileywink:. Unfortunately if DEs were to truly roleplay they couldnt do much unless they had a good number of DE friends. Its a shame its not very possible. I just found it funny that no iksar, ogre, troll, or any other evil races ever ever had situations of mercy.

[SoulofMorrig]

<P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>See now you are making me think, lol.  Thank you for that.   :smileyhappy: The one that sticks out most in my mind right away involves an ogre.  It is from Chapter 4 of the Tome of Destiny I believe but here is part of the excerpt:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>She bared her teeth and slowly shook her head. "My mind... it's fuzzy, Urduuk. It scares me a little. I know of what you speak, but still... it's like I'm trudging slowly through deep water. I want so much to move faster, but I simply cannot." <BR><BR>He wrapped his huge arms around her and pulled her close to him. "I'm sorry, my love. I do not mean to upset you. But I can see it in myself and in the others. I can hear it in the way we speak. Something about us is changing, Karna. We are not what we once were." <BR><BR>"I think you are right, Urduuk," she said, almost vulnerably. She squeezed him because it made her feel better to do so. <BR><BR>He kissed her brow. "That's enough nonsense out of me for now. What about that breakfast?" <BR></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#999999>Let me see if I can think of any others.  Now I have something to do while waiting for this update to finish lol.</FONT></STRONG></P>

[srtubagi]

<DIV>Ahhhh. I think that proves your point that altho the evil races may base their community around hatred, fear, or whatever...they do have the other emotions.  I suppose with their morals built around those things...love is only known with companionship...and cant be felt for someone whos not family.  Good implies love for everyone, even those you dont know. The evil races cant comprehend that. </DIV>

[Dro]

<P>Actually  the truth is that Tier'dal will lie and do anything (even pretend to be good) for years and years until they are in a position to unlease their inborn hate to maximum effect.</P> <P> </P>

[Eneg]

I'm a lore noob, but I've always thought that Tier'dal culture was evil, not the Tier'dal themselves. There are numerous in-game sources describing Tier'dal outcasts, which may be.. well.. not so evil (hence the reason they are outcasts from an evil society). <div></div>

[Rylight]

<DIV>and once agian here we are with the whole good-vs-evil thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>blah Im an iksar, and inherently you'd think I'd be evil, but im not evil in my eyes or my peoples eyes. Im a shadow knight, I can not only weild a sword and kill for my determined zeal and faith, but also get my powers from dwelving into the dark arts related to necromancy, thats what makes me seem evil. qeynosians, the goodies, see this as a bad unmoral thing, waking the dead and tampering with spirits and souls, thats what makes me bad, BUT THATS THIER PERSPECTIVE,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>back in Cabalis we were made up of nothing but sk's necros's shamans, and warriors, but we within our own group of people, didnt see it as evil, we just saw it as life. sure we had a history of pain,blood, enslavement and torture, but whether we were giving it or recieving it we had nobody to judge whether we were actually good or evil, untill those accursed elves set up Fironia Vie and said "oh no, 7 ft lizard man with sharp claws and teeth, they must be evil, lets quickly judge and destroy them" bah!! they should mind there own business</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also, the whole evil thing was really dictated by the gods in the beginning, We whorshipped Cazic Thule, the God of fear who believed the only way to live was to inflict pain and thus gain fear, but since the Gods are gone what are we now?? still evil?? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also my (personal) character was never really evil to begin with, he is just assertive and wants to get back to his homeland through anyway necessary. and that includes killing or using the dark arts to do, that in a qeynosians mind is evil. in reality I just want what any lost home-sick wonderer would want.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but if you look back At the Evil Lich King Venril Sathir, he had a queen (driksilla I think?) that he clearly loved and tried to ressurect even though he was an "Evil" necromancer bent on conquering Kunark with an army of undead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>to the point, I there is no real race that is Evil among its own kind (except maybe trolls). I dont look at other iksar as evil. and its clear that amoung themselves dark elfs will take care of each other, and even sometimes act in their best intrest or those who they are related to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remeber the only thing that makes us evil is the fact that somebody is judging us as evil. If qeynos didnt exist there would be no good or evil.... just freeport, city of ..... well poeple.</DIV> <DIV>and vise versa, It would just be qeynos, city of...... well the only city!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>500 years have passed and without the gods influence all the races (well,,,, except the trolls) are beginning to open there eyes to there own concern and well being, plus with the fact that we are all huddled up in two cities, we have began to tolerate and even help each other. we are no longer  13 races with 13 citys, with 13 of our own plans and ideas, we are in two cities and must not unite for our own well being to survive and see another day..... well some of us do anyways... the stage is set, keep a weary eye out for what is known to be good and evil, I got to go to bed so ill cut this short.............. still, I will continue to bring fear into the hearts of those who defy me, and if you see that as evil, then so be it!</DIV>

[srtubagi]

<DIV>Rylight kinda brought up an interesting point...Anybody else find it funny that the gods caused the rending to seperate the races, because united they were strong and united they conquered gods? Now theyre becoming even more united lol. Kinda funny in my own oppinion. Their plan kinda sucked.</DIV>

[Fireflyf]

well, none of the races, view themselves as evil. Just deserving. The Teir'dal, they think that because of their high intellect and noble heritage, they are supposed to rule the world. The Iksar have also been raised with a sense of higher status than everyone else, maybe it is because they look so different. The Ogre are created to conquor and so they do, the Trolls just love food and power, so they do what ever they want. However, as with humnas, these races seem to have wierdo within the social structure. Teir'dal who want to join Qeynos, would maybe be viewed the same way as someone who wants to abandon all societal teachings and live in the woods with a pet gumdrop named Trafalger. Well, except they would probably be killed, instead of thrown into a mental institute.

[sphinxeg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> srtubagirl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rylight kinda brought up an interesting point...Anybody else find it funny that the gods caused the rending to seperate the races, because united they were strong and united they conquered gods? Now theyre becoming even more united lol. Kinda funny in my own oppinion. Their plan kinda sucked.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>youre point would be a valid one except that the races in both cities are just <STRONG>refugees </STRONG>of those peoples. they do not represent the majority of their own peoples. they are just groups that just happened to be at the right place at the right time. think about it: the majority of the ogres were killed by the greenmist, the ones in freeport are just a little fragment that came crawling and begging</P> <P>in qeynos, the elves there are just a group that happened to be there(trading, diplomatic, whatever). the majority are still on faydwer(or whats left of it). and think about the iksar, it was just a small boat of 'em.</P> <P>my point is, the gods did destroy the mortal's unity. all we are seeing in freeport and qeynos are the humans accepting refugees. we do not know where most of norrath peoples are.</P>

[srtubagi]

<DIV>Im pretty willing to believe that there are no large populations of playable races anywhere else on norrath...Halas is gone, all we see is undead barbs. Rivervale is pretty empty...and rivervale is one of the few that was very fortunate to come out unharmed from the shattering. I cant say for all races, but we know that faydark is run over by orcs. Plus, on a non-lore note...were all pretty sure SOE does NOT plan on adding any more starting cities...and if we discovered a huge population of acertain race, theyd have to make starting there available, as well as adding cities for everyones races because it would only be fair. Honestly, i think the only things well see in the remaints of the old cities will be undead and a couple npcs. I think we can pretty strongly assume that the people in freeport and qeynos are (although a small amount of people) the majority of the survivors...or else both cities would be overrun by humans, being the hosts to the "few" refugees...but in truth it seems all the races are pretty balanced, so im willing to believe there are no other surviving communities.</DIV>

[srtubagi]

<DIV>Oh yea I wanted to add on some other cities from eq1....we know gukta does not stand, and that all the frogloks fled to guk, and were captured there. And were pretty sure that all the ogre men were fighting the war, and they all died from the plague. Since the plague found the army, though it was spread across antonica...it found all the orcs. I would believe that cazic wouldnt kill just the men fighting the war...hed send the plague home to the women and children too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Derinius]

<DIV>I would like to put my perspective in here concerning Tier'dal grouping with other races.  I have a Dark Elf Warlock that is a normal member of a guild led by a troll berserker.  Now, some may ask, why would a dark elf subject himself to being less than a troll and why would the guild put up with a dark elf?  My answer is that not only are dark elves full of evil and hate, they are generally intelligent and sly.  While appearing to be some lowly warlock who does the troll's bidding, he actually manipulates the troll into doing what he wants.  The warlock will group with good races even, finding them easy to manipulate due to their tendencies to trust and forgive others.  What better way to achieve world domination than by manipulating others while seeming harmless yourself?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, my warlock is still Tier'dal through and through so sometimes he can't control himself.  He has been known to fly off the handle when a passer-by tries to lend him a hand.  He has stood by and laughed while a halfling yelled for help and ran around in circles, being mauled by a bear in Nektulos.  He is evil.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, no matter what the race or if you are evil or good, there are always perfectly valid reasons to be in almost any situation provided you put a little thought into it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and if you are on Antonia Bayle and you see a Dark Elf name Malak roaming in your neck of the woods, you best stand aside.  :smileywink:</DIV>

[DruVir]

I never saw the Tier'dal as "evil", but as a race willing to do what is necessary. Many people think of these actions as evil, however. It's all in the eye of the beholder. One who abandons his comrades to let them die, to be the only one to escape can be seen as "evil" to other lighter races, but if that one elf escaped to deliver plans of an invasion on Neriak, it's a just cause in the long run. However, many don't deem this as "good". <div></div>

[Zarl]

<P>I currently play a Dark Elf known on the nek server as Kurdan,</P> <P>Dark Elves are without a doubt, evil as they come but some Dark Elves will group with good players or do good deeds if it will further their own personal progress - so in doing a good act some are actually being personally evil.  An example of this would be say a Dark Elf Necromancer needs to get far into a dungeon but lacks the ability to do so , he may befriend (loose meaning of the word) a group of adventurers to share a common goal of getting to what he desires.</P> <P> In EQ1 on Bertox, I had a Necro named Zarlax and a priest named Kurdan.</P> <P> Kurdan was Zarlaxs younger brother and  since the shattering he has lost all faith in the gods and followed in the footsteps of his brother whom was in Neriak when the gates were sealed.  Kurdan followed in his Brothers steps not out of love but for the fact that it worked well for his brother. Dark Elves do show a strong sense of family comitment, not love.</P> <P> Kurdan - Nek Server</P>

[Krien the Wick]

<DIV>I think the main reason is that Innoruuk lost his hold on the dark elves. If they are not willed by a god to hate, then they are free to choose their own path. While most tend to go to the dark side, because of their upbringing, there is no reason that, of their own free will, they wouldn't "see the light" as it may be, and turn "good".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that is the underlying reason that any race can be any class in eq2. </DIV>

[srtubagi]

<P>Oh, found another site of lore of dark elf going good....Vahlai </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>A Dark Elf wizard form EverQuest,she was originally sided against Firiona Vie and the forces of good. However, in later adventures she realized her mistake and has now befriended the adventurers of Firiona's party. </FONT></P> <DIV>Cant find more descriptive lore on it sorry.</DIV>

[Lante]

<P><FONT color=#6633ff>IMHO, I`d say one of the biggest influences associated with the idea of so many "good hearted" Tier`dal would be with R.A. Salvatore`s <EM>Dark Elf Trilogy</EM>.  Before those stories came out, no one really wrote anything about the Dark Elf society in such appealing detail. I read many of the "Drizzt" series of books, and it sure makes you want to play a Dark Elf afterwards!, lol.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6633ff>But seriously, I think because of the popularity of Salvatore`s books regarding many dark elves as "good" (or suddenly having a conscience) in one way or another, then I`m sure that influenced SOE`s devs.  They just knew what ppl liked and went for it.</FONT></P>

[Duhulk]

I think oftentimes when a dark elf looks like it's doing "good" it's just manipulating a situation for their own twisted ends =p

[DruVir]

<DIV>C'mon guys .. the Tier'dal aren't all bad. They're just misunderstood, for the most part! They just live by a different set of rules .. and although they are a bit ruthless .. I'm sure it's just some sort of act. They're just big cuddly teddy bears, deep down!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next time you're on an RP server, give one a hug, and you'll see what I mean!</DIV>

[Nainitsuj]

<P>I'd like to point out (sorry if it alread has) Ogres were not always deformed.</P> <P>Lore in EQ1 PoK describes ogres as taller versions of humans.  No horns, no bad teeth.  But they were cursed for being the tools of a war.  The curse made them what they are today.  And apparently the curse has been lifted (somewhat) from the ogres.  This means they have the choice.  But who's going to willingly let monsters roam through happy town?</P> <P>Also, Iksar aren't evil by choice.  They were enslaved.  They fear being slaves again.  They also fear their god.  They have no choice but to follow his will as Iksar lore has described the Green Mist destroying those who no longer follow Thule.</P> <P>Trolls are just trolls, they're evil.</P> <P> </P> <P>And a counter point.  I see a lot of evil high elves.  Are we to assume that most high elves are evil?</P> <P> </P>

[Kyuven]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<p>I'd like to point out (sorry if it alread has) Ogres were not always deformed.</p> <p>Lore in EQ1 PoK describes ogres as taller versions of humans.  No horns, no bad teeth.  But they were cursed for being the tools of a war.  The curse made them what they are today.  And apparently the curse has been lifted (somewhat) from the ogres.  This means they have the choice.  But who's going to willingly let monsters roam through happy town?</p> <p>Also, Iksar aren't evil by choice.  They were enslaved.  They fear being slaves again.  They also fear their god.  They have no choice but to follow his will as Iksar lore has described the Green Mist destroying those who no longer follow Thule.</p> <p>Trolls are just trolls, they're evil.</p> <p>And a counter point.  I see a lot of evil high elves.  Are we to assume that most high elves are evil?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Trolls are just ugly, stupid, and savage.  Not entirely evil, more animalistic. Ratonga are just craftier and slightly more sinister halflings...with fur Iksar are tribal, and constantly misunderstood.  what is considered good by them is viewed as evil by others.  History, ancient and modern, teaches us instances of this. Ogres were and are warlike, much like Star Trek's klingons.  Yet who allied with the Federation against the Dominion? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Dark Elves...Tier'Dal...i have a theory</span>.  Dark Elves are very prideful, and powerful.  The average dark elf is as cunning as a ratonga, agile as any elf, comparable to a kerra, intelligent as an erudite.  Even Lucan fears them enough to give them their own district in freeport. IMO, Dark elves are probably one of the most misplaced races on Norrath.  The wood elves have Willow Wood, Erudites have the various libraries, high elves have castleview, frogloks have...Peat Bog, dwarves and barbarians have graystone and forges in general, kerra have scumptious ratonga to chase, ogres have the militia, trolls have...gnomes and the odd betraying halfling (why else would all betrayers be set in Big Bend?), and half elves actually fit in now more than ever. Dark Elves?  Their home got taken over by HALFLINGS! (when i heard about this back in EQ1 it almost turned me off to EQ2...i've smacked around halflings since may 2000 on my EQ1 main...and they take over neriak!?)  Their god deserts them, and they're forced to live with other races.  Prior to neriak's fall, Dark Elves had only lived with dark elves.  they had limited interaction with humans, and frequently introduced their blades to the bodies of halflings and other elves, but the number of members of other races present in neriak can be counted on 1 hand (2 erudites, a human, a halfling, and the PoD) aside from the ogre and troll infestation.  even then, these other races were only present in 1 part of the Foreign Quarter. Dark Elves have lost their identity, they pine for neriak, for their isolation.  They are in fact the only race in the game with a radical group bent on restoring their home city (halflings too...to an extent but in reality none of them actually ever left rivervale.  and frogloks too i suppose) <div></div>

[DreamerClou]

Hey Kyuven, wasn't there a half-elf in the Neriak 3rd Gate zone in EQ1?  Maiden's Fancy I think the name was of the place.  She might have been an Ironforge, but I forget the name really. 

[Kyuven]

<span><blockquote><hr>DreamerCloud9 wrote:Hey Kyuven, wasn't there a half-elf in the Neriak 3rd Gate zone in EQ1?  Maiden's Fancy I think the name was of the place.  She might have been an Ironforge, but I forget the name really.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>hm, i don't remember her.  there's also Rizaz(sp?) the troll bouncer and Spice the ogre...uh...stripper in neriak commons, so i guess as long as they're doing "business", they're allowed in the deeper districts also...why are dark elves not marked as being patriarchal or matriarchal?  it's usually one or the other but dark elves seem very even about gender roles...i mean, their god was male and his child was female.  This has always bothered me...along with wondering what happened to the rest of neriak.</span><div></div>

[Jaranna]

The dark elves were ruled by both a king and queen. We have found out that the Naythox Thex mentioned in EQ is not the original Naythox, but the second. Cristianos is still the same one, as her necromantic powers have kept her alive for a very long time. The king and queen continually plot against one another for sole control of Neriak. Each has an equivalent level of power. The queen has the Lodge of the Dead, with its Necromancers and Shadowknights, while the king has the warriors at his disposal. The rest either want to focus on Innoruuk's commands (the clerics) or just don't really care (The Spurned and the Ebon Hand).Both are equally powerful politically, and have been since their creation. Thus their society is really neither patriarchal or matriarchal, though the case could be made that due to Innoruuk's perceived sex, Teir'Dal are patriarchal. However, by that same logic, the elves would be matriarchal, and that's not the case either.Teir'Dal crave and respect power; sex is secondary to that.

[Kyuven]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jaranna wrote:The dark elves were ruled by both a king and queen. We have found out that the Naythox Thex mentioned in EQ is not the original Naythox, but the second. Cristianos is still the same one, as her necromantic powers have kept her alive for a very long time. The king and queen continually plot against one another for sole control of Neriak. Each has an equivalent level of power. The queen has the Lodge of the Dead, with its Necromancers and Shadowknights, while the king has the warriors at his disposal. The rest either want to focus on Innoruuk's commands (the clerics) or just don't really care (The Spurned and the Ebon Hand).Both are equally powerful politically, and have been since their creation. Thus their society is really neither patriarchal or matriarchal, though the case could be made that due to Innoruuk's perceived sex, Teir'Dal are patriarchal. However, by that same logic, the elves would be matriarchal, and that's not the case either.Teir'Dal crave and respect power; sex is secondary to that.<hr></blockquote>i knew about the Thex couple's endless quarreling, but now that i think about it, it sounds like a battle of the sexes type deal (Naythox was even the one who openly opposed Lanys, i never heard a peep from Cristianos...and i was at the GM event) i really hope they find old Neriak beyond Fallen Gate...</span><div></div>