Pre Warding bad?

[Ylis]

Have there been some changes to pre-warding and aggro effect this week?I have played a defiler very occaisonally over the last year or so, and I am used to pre-warding the tank before s/he engages the mob. This has never cause aggro to hurl itself at me before. However, last night pre-warding was causing me to get the initial hit from the mob. The tank said she was pulling with taunt also. The fury in the group said the same thing has happened with pre-heals (and presumably reactives) and has been in since the last LU./boogles clulesslyDid I miss something significant, or is there something amiss?If I did miss something, what is the consensus on pre-warding now? Bad thing to do? I am confused <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sa'meria]

I can usually get agro almost every time if I solo and group ward before/on pull. Solo ward I'm usually all right except if a taunt is resisted.

[Landaros]

every lasting spell you cast just before the fight will cause aggro. I stopped making the group ward right before the taunts of the tank since this spell makes the mobs just pass the tanks just to smack your poor behind.<div></div>

[Jenguro]

<P>I typically do not preward because it will cause your enemies to attack you first, rather than the fighter.  This is especially true with adds, since tanks often use their single target taunt first on the one that he targeted, but the others have little aggression toward him.  What I try to do is *time* the ward to hit him just as the enemy reaches him and he is able to taunt it.  It can be tricky however since if you ward too soon, you'll take its aggression, and if you ward too late, the fighter will take damage.  But if anything I err on the side of damage, since he'll likely regen what little damage he takes before engaging the next enemy.</P> <P>Exceptions to this practice are when we're fighting something very difficult that the fighter needs to pull to the group, and he may take significant damage before he returns.  In that case I tell him that I'm prewarding, stack single target and group wards, and keep up my aoe fear in case the taunts are resisted.  There are also some tanks who prewarding doesn't seem to cause a problem with, I suspect they're using multiple taunts in succession as soon as engaging, but again I would check with the tank before pewarding.</P>

[Ylis]

<font color="#ffccff">I was also wondering when this changed -- I was pre-warding with no issues at all 2 nights ago, but last night I was getting all the aggro from pre warding. Have I just been lucky in the past with tanks who have Master Shout?</font><p>Message Edited by Ylis on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 AM</span>

[Zendi_Perma]

<DIV>I duo a defiler and bruiser, both at level 22 now.   I always solo and group pre-ward the bruiser before the pull.    I either body pull or ranged pull with the bruiser, followed by an encounter taunt and AOE attack.     My defiler never takes damage because there is either no aggro or the group ward gets it.</DIV>

[OhGod30]

<div></div>Level 30 myself, and only really had problems a few nights ago (not had time to play since), and then that was only in the latter part of the night. Went with a group to RoV, all going well initally, not drawing any agro what so ever, then about 1 hour or so in mobs start making a bee line for me. Checked with pre-ward and not pre-warding, even disabled that group buff with the replenishing ward, but they still came for me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In the end my tactic was to group ward and single ward *me* so I stayed alive long enough for the tank to pull them off me. Very strange.<div></div>

[IngridS]

<DIV>I'm with Jen and Zen. It all depends on your tank. And this shouldn't be something new. My grouping has been with a bruiser as the tank and I'd ALWAYS single ward him first (esp. as he loves to run VERY long pulls). I would almost NEVER get aggro off him (me, bruiser, assassin, and guardian). My main tanks I play now with are the same way (safe to ward first). They are awesome taunters. But occasionally I'll come across a tank that doesn't seem to hold aggro as well and I have to wait to ward them. ::sigh:: But trust me, warding first (single ward) can work very well. When raiding (or on more difiicult mobs), it does depend on the situation, but you can single ward your tank just as he's pulling. As you work together the timing becomes second nature. And cast Spiritual Circle to ward your raid mates. Also lay down grp ward and bane.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> A good tank should be able to hold aggro and peel off any adds if need be. Besides Circle and Bane should help protect you fromt he adds until he does get them off~</DIV>

[Ylis]

<blockquote><hr>OhGod3001 wrote:<div></div>Level 30 myself, and only really had problems a few nights ago (not had time to play since), and then that was only in the latter part of the night. Went with a group to RoV, all going well initally, not drawing any agro what so ever, then about 1 hour or so in mobs start making a bee line for me. Checked with pre-ward and not pre-warding, even disabled that group buff with the replenishing ward, but they still came for me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In the end my tactic was to group ward and single ward *me* so I stayed alive long enough for the tank to pull them off me. Very strange.<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffccff">This is almost exactly what I expereinced last night. Very odd indeed.</font>

[Broomhilda]

<DIV>Pre-warding has always been risky business since the combat revamp last fall.  I simply learned to time my wards to the split second.  The minute the mob looks at the tank and takes the first step towards him is when I hit single target ward.  I then quickly followup with group.  I used this technique in groups AND in raid situations.  What I sometimes do in raids is hit the insta-cast emergency group ward, Purulence, the second the tank engages the raid mob.  This is a tremendous help.  ANd your all right, some tanks hold aggro a bit better than others so change your warding style according to the tank your with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Schmalex23]

Plain and simple, if you are pulling agro by putting wards down before a fight, you need a new tank. Some of you might argue that the wards generate alot of agro. But i can testify over a very long time of being a tank (70 zerker) and dual boxing with my deflier who always prewards, that my deflier NEVER pulls agro if i pull with a taunt. Although, if i use an arrow w/o a taunt the agro goes to my deflier like 25% of the time and if i just proximity pull the agro goes to my deflier 99% of the time. So basicly your tank either had app1 taunts and you had master wards, he wasnt taunting on pulls, or he just sucks.<p>Message Edited by Schmalex23 on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[jfleming2003]

Because of my experiences in a raid guild, I strongly urge you not to pre-ward. If you're in an encounter that is familiar to you and your grp/raid members then I would say it's maybe safe to pre-ward with your single target ward. Don't use your group ward and NEVER double ward. Defilers are known to pull aggro even when they don't ward, double warding would be insta-death.The second the tank taunts the mob throw up your single ward, group ward and any touch-up heals that are needed. It's all about timing...if you can land your ward/wards right when the tank is able to taunt the whole encounter, you should be good-to-go. Just pray that nothing resists the taunt <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />To Schmalex23: I agree, some the time the tank may not be up to par but just as you stated, there are many different situations where agro can go crazy. Taunts get resisted, mobs can be out of range of taunt...proxy pulling and pulling a group encounter with an arrow is insta-death for Defilers the majority of the time, even without pre-warding.This can go for any healer class though that throws up their HOTs/reactives before the pull if the tank proxy's or pulls with an arrow.<p>Message Edited by jfleming2003 on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 PM</span>

[firewolf]

My defiler has grouped with SK in wailing cave and fallen gate pulling single and group mobs(up to 6 mobs). Always put up group ward before the SK pulling. The SK use DD for pulling. No agro on me at all. Not sure if the problem only happens at higher level. I find it odd that your tank is using taunt to pull. I've pulled quite a fair bit with my level 45 berserker. Usually using bow then follow up by debuff/stun for single target or AE damage for group. Then single target taunt or AE taunt. So far works pretty well. <div></div>

[Travesty]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>Hi there,</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>Fellow Shaman here (70 Mystic).  Aye...since DoF, pre-warding definitely draws aggro on pulls.  I have been one to always pre-ward - first my single then my group - when the MT calls a pull.  I have since modified it, as most of you have, but I do so depending on how much trust I put into that particular tank (his weariness to follow-up taunt and his pull technique) that leads the group or raid.  I noticed over experimenting that my single ward draws more aggro than my group ward does...so, I actually feel safer casting my group wards on pulls.  Sure, there is occasionally a time I take the first hit, but its nothing that our MT cant grab right afterwards.  Has anyone noticed this with Defiler wards ?  I ask since I am currently contemplating betraying once the LU comes, and switching over to become a Defiler myself.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>Particulary for pick-up groups, or unfamiliar tanks, watch how the tank is pulling.  If the mobs are social, he is more than likely body pulling, which case if he doesnt taunt right away or it gets resisted, you will more than likely draw aggro from  your buffs alone...then throw up the group ward for added protection to yourself on these type of pulls.  If the tank is smart enough, he will follow-up taunt, and take control of the situation.  With non-social mob pulls, I kindly ask them to use an encoutner based AE, then follow-up group taunt in tells, which usually does the trick.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>/cheers</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Travestyz on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[Spangles]

<P>This is the method I use for pre-warding:</P> <P>For non-social mobs when the MT can use an DD, AoE or taunt to pull I will pre ward with the single ward and start casting the group ward on the pull.  This way you can be pretty sure that the MT will take proper aggro control, the single ward will take the brunt of the initial attacks and the group ward will land at the right time.  The single ward will then be ready to fire again as required.</P> <P>For social mobs, when body pulling is the order of the day there is no telling where the aggro will go, so I pre-ward with the group ward to cover everybody and cast the single ward on the MT on the pull.  The MT body pulls and I will inevitably take the hit, which is not a problem because everyone knows I will take the hit and the ward covers it anyway.  The ward gives the MT enough time to restore aggro control, or if I can see that he is struggling to restore order I will throw the de-aggro spell to assist.</P> <P>It has to be said though, that the quality of the MT is a huge factor in this.  I always feel much more confident doing this with a guardian or zerker than with pallys or SKs, and I really do keep my fingers crossed when it comes to monks and bruisers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yes, the quality of the player behind the toon is a factor too, but some MTs are inherently better at aggro control.  There is nothing more satisfying than standing behind a good player playing a good MT class.</P>

[Kimage]

<P>the QUALITY of the MT has a huge thing about it. I have quad with a guard, ranger, dirge, defiler ( ME ) and the guard I play with for a long time coulen't get the spongies for his taunts ( let alone the Masters as they were non - existant at the time ), so he Adept 1's - He rarely has ever losed aggro except for when we have a bad ranger ( hehe thats what we call her when she pulls aggro from him ), or when we when we dont time the wards properly - I usually call out my pre - wards which helps him know how he should pull the mobs... We use Teamspeak so it speads it up and it doesn't spam the channel it really helps. Though when in pick up groups - I would suggest calling out your prewards ( I usually start with the group as it is a longer caster ) and then after the first taunt pull out the single ward - Just remember communication is key in grouping - if you dont forget that you should be fine. </P> <P> </P> <P>Happy Healing :smileywink:</P>

[Sokolov]

For whatever reason, I've found that I can pre-ward best with SK tanks... which is counter intuitive =/<div></div>

[NimSul]

I generally dont preward in normal situations. And when i do i tell the tank to get initial aggro. It goes fine if the taunt isnt resistet, which is why i dont do it much, only if its really really needed or the tank is in offensive going ape on the mob from the getgo.

[Jazmynn]

<DIV>Our prewards interfere at times with other healers reactives.... and cause us aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will preward if there is no templar in group, mostly if I am the sole healer... as long as the MT can keep aggro or I have a personal protector.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prewarding when there is one mob is much safer than when its an encounter with many adds... adds love defilers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the past the zone also influenced if I would preward, seemed some were buggier than others...</DIV>

[jfleming2003]

<blockquote><hr>Travestyz wrote:<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>Hi there,</FONT></P><P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>Fellow Shaman here (70 Mystic).  Aye...since DoF, pre-warding definitely draws aggro on pulls.  I have been one to always pre-ward - first my single then my group - when the MT calls a pull.  I have since modified it, as most of you have, but I do so depending on how much trust I put into that particular tank (his weariness to follow-up taunt and his pull technique) that leads the group or raid.  I noticed over experimenting that my single ward draws more aggro than my group ward does...so, I actually feel safer casting my group wards on pulls.  Sure, there is occasionally a time I take the first hit, but its nothing that our MT cant grab right afterwards.  Has anyone noticed this with Defiler wards ?  I ask since I am currently contemplating betraying once the LU comes, and switching over to become a Defiler myself.</FONT></P><P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>Particulary for pick-up groups, or unfamiliar tanks, watch how the tank is pulling.  If the mobs are social, he is more than likely body pulling, which case if he doesnt taunt right away or it gets resisted, you will more than likely draw aggro from  your buffs alone...then throw up the group ward for added protection to yourself on these type of pulls.  If the tank is smart enough, he will follow-up taunt, and take control of the situation.  With non-social mob pulls, I kindly ask them to use an encoutner based AE, then follow-up group taunt in tells, which usually does the trick.  </FONT></P><P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00 size=2>/cheers</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Travestyz on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span><hr></blockquote>As far as I can tell, Mystics have the same problem.

[jzakhar]

In the worst of pulls I've throw up group ward, single target on our MT and laid down a circle before he pulls. Only a handfull of times have I needed to bomb torpid chant (i usually tab through the mobs, to see if they are coming for me or the tank). This is our MT for raids, so I am used to him, he is used to me. In pickups, no I usually don't pre ward. I would wager it comes down to the players involved more than the mechanics of aggro/taunt/ward Jallacea - 70 Defiler <div></div>

[sostrows]

Single ward tank on pull generallyUse Circle at 58+ (doesnt generate hate like group ward)Group ward + single ward will tend to get you the agro especially as folks have mentioned with a bow or body pull.I don't preward on Orange mobs (cant find them anymore at 70) as a taunt resist will reward you with an instant splat.I don't preward on groups of mobs if tank is bow or body pulling.There is a kinda fun technique that goes with this.  You could group + single ward.  Let tank body pull, watch entire group of mobs come at you then pop Chant.  Kinda fun.  You could also have a WIZ pull with a movement slow spell.  Another fun thing to do is group ward and pull with pet.  Pet will generate a fraction of the hate of your ward.  Mob will come right for you and tank can grab mob inbound.  Just tell pet to backoff as soon as it attacks mob.  You will get mob 90% of the time alone even with the most social of mobs.

[Xa]

<P>Generally i cast my group ward first, and i do it before the tank takes damage, but not pre-pull.</P> <P>I do it by continually cycling my group ward and pressing ESC if the tank hasn't pulled yet, by doing this I pretty much always have casted my ward before the tank gets touched (I usually play with a longbow puller).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[PhozFa]

I am speaking mostly as a tank but i do have a T6 defiler. As my 70 bruiser i hate pre wards. It makes pulling groups hair raising at times. Also the main reason is if i mess up the pull pre-ward takes away my option to FD it off and do it over. Even against tough mobs i usually have my heal up so even if the mob gets a lucky streak its no big deal For my 60 SK pre warding isn't as hair raising and it doesn't bother me at all. Mainly due to our AEs provide wicked agro. Only negative part i can see from this perspective if at 100% health our lifetaps and reactive lifetap are half effective IMO. When i play my 55 defiler and am in groups i usually don't preward. I will in some situations and anytime i do i usually let the tank know so he is aware of early agro. 50% of the time I play this toon i 2box and mentor my bruiser. Now that combo is a diffrent story cause i keep the bruiser's life between 20-30% at all times to take advantage of an AA that gives me -75% crit chance (plus 22% on another AA so 97% total) and 1.4xxK mitigation when 30% health or lower- <div></div>

[sostrows]

Thanks for the info Phoz!<div></div>

[posseder]

i use my single target ward and start casting multi ward as the tank is pulling,being a 5 second cast if you time it good your multi will land a fraction of a second after taunt and no pre ward aggro.if you miss well hell better time that aoe fear of 5 meter good.)

[Zooblamy]

<DIV>I experience zero aggro problems by prewarding both single and group wards, with my two-boxed Bruiser in 50 levels.  Now granted, something may change in another level, but so far, NOTHING I do as a defiler causes her to get aggro.  And that's even group pulling with a hex doll.  Also works the same for a guild SK of lvl50 - preward both single a group wards, and zero aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go figure.</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zooblamy wrote:<div>I experience zero aggro problems by prewarding both single and group wards, with my two-boxed Bruiser in 50 levels.  Now granted, something may change in another level, but so far, NOTHING I do as a defiler causes her to get aggro.  And that's even group pulling with a hex doll.  Also works the same for a guild SK of lvl50 - preward both single a group wards, and zero aggro.</div> <div> </div> <div>Go figure.</div><hr></blockquote>Wow, lucky.Try this for us... pre-ward and then body pull.</div>

[Zooblamy]

<DIV>Yep, I'll give it a try.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly (and not being condesending here), but I don't believe I've ever been in a situation where I've HAD to body-pull.  In what type of situation would I need to do that?  I've played a Guard for many levels, and now this Bruiser, and I'm unsure of how body-pulling fits into the game - given the numerous ranged opportunities that we (tanks) have at our exposure (dolls, ranged, taunts, etc).  If it's simply a matter of "you can't pull until you enter the room" type of body-pull, a quick tab over to one of the grouped mobs, and an AE taunt (even with the Bruiser's weak one) always rectified any stray mobs.  The times when a taunt is resisted, I would expect a mob to go for the healers of the group - I understood that it was inherent to a mobs (albiet limited) AI capabilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trust me, I'm not here to say you folks are not correct in experiencing this - I'm only saying that I don't experience it.  Whether it's because I tank differently (or otherwise have different tactics than most) or whatnot, I'm not sure.  I just don't have this problem.  I don't raid (or not yet anyway), so that may be a completely different ballgame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>54 Bruiser - Kithicor</DIV> <DIV>49 Defiler - Kithicor</DIV>

[PhozFa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zooblamy wrote:<div>Yep, I'll give it a try.</div> <div> </div> <div>Honestly (and not being condesending here), but I don't believe I've ever been in a situation where I've HAD to body-pull.  In what type of situation would I need to do that?  I've played a Guard for many levels, and now this Bruiser, and I'm unsure of how body-pulling fits into the game - given the numerous ranged opportunities that we (tanks) have at our exposure (dolls, ranged, taunts, etc).  If it's simply a matter of "you can't pull until you enter the room" type of body-pull, a quick tab over to one of the grouped mobs, and an AE taunt (even with the Bruiser's weak one) always rectified any stray mobs.  The times when a taunt is resisted, I would expect a mob to go for the healers of the group - I understood that it was inherent to a mobs (albiet limited) AI capabilities.</div> <div> </div> <div>Trust me, I'm not here to say you folks are not correct in experiencing this - I'm only saying that I don't experience it.  Whether it's because I tank differently (or otherwise have different tactics than most) or whatnot, I'm not sure.  I just don't have this problem.  I don't raid (or not yet anyway), so that may be a completely different ballgame.</div> <div> </div> <div>54 Bruiser - Kithicor</div> <div>49 Defiler - Kithicor</div><hr></blockquote>To touch on body pulling for you even thou this is about tanking in a healer thread but.... Body pulling is when you pull by walking into the agro range of a mob (on purpose if its by accident i call it "[Removed for Content]" pulling). This is useful in higher level situations when two diffrent encounters are close to each other. When you use a ranged attack there is a certain radius of agro that goes off around the targeted mob. If another mob is in that range it will also agro. I didn't start to body pull untill mid 50s i think. (and thats only in certain situations) <div></div><p>Message Edited by PhozFate on <span class=date_text>05-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:12 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

One lower level place you may need to do it is that one room in Runnyeye *shudders at the memory* <div></div>